WEBVTT - Gilbert King Presents: Bone Valley Season 4 | Earwitness 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.960 Hi everyone, this is Gilbert King. Today we're introducing you 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.680 to the podcast ear Witness and the Alabama wontful conviction 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:12.080 case of Tafaris Johnson. As many Bone Valley listeners know, 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.000 after the attention Season one brought to Leo Schofield's case, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.560 Leo was finally released from prison after spending thirty six 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.480 years behind bars for a murder he did not commit. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.680 And as fans of season three Graves County know, the 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.560 attention Maggie Freeling brought to Quincy Cross's case has led 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:35.040 key witnesses to recant their testimony, resulting in new evidentiary 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.800 hearings that could grant him a new trial and potentially 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:44.360 free him after decades of incarceration. There's something unique happening 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.360 across these Bone Valley series. Storytelling with heart grounded in 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.519 rigorous investigation is making a real difference where the courts 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.920 have often fallen short. We're seeing meaningful developments and it 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:02.440 underscores the urgency of reval visiting official narratives in cases 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:07.000 we believe resulted in wrongful convictions. This has been essential 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.840 to the work of Jason Flohm and the entire team 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.840 at Lava for Good. That's why we wanted you to 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.039 hear the story of Tafaris Johnson, who has been on 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.480 Alabama's death row for more than twenty five years. Beginning 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.400 January twenty eighth, we'll be releasing all episodes right here 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.360 in the Bone Valley Feed as Bone Valley Season four 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.400 Ear Witness available as a binge on Lava for Good 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:38.080 plus on Apple Podcasts. Then on February four, all episodes 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.560 will be released as a binge in the Free Bone 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.400 Valley Feed. I'm joined today by Beth Shelburne, the creator 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.360 and host of ear Witness, an award winning investigative journalist 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.320 and writer and producer of the critically acclaimed documentary The 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:59.040 Alabama Solution. The film, currently streaming on HBO Max, has 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:04.120 earned widespread praise for its unfiltered look at systemic abuse, violence, 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.160 and human rights failures inside the Alabama Department of Corrections, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.400 and has been shortlisted for an Academy Award. We're also 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:24.520 joined by the film's co directors, Andrew Direki and Charlotte Kaufman. Andrew, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.919 I want to start with you before we dig into 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.960 The Alabama Solution. I'd love your take on ear Witness. 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.480 People know your work from Capturing the Freedmen's to The 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.440 Jinks and the Jinks Part two and your long commitment 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.560 to criminal justice storytelling. For someone deeply familiar with Alabama's system, 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.799 what stood out to you about Tafarist Johnson's case when 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:45.920 you first learned about it. 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:51.280 Well, I follow everything that Beth does anyway, and I 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.360 knew that if she was going to spend time on 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.440 this case, it was going to be infuriating. And one 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.640 of the things that's so, I don't know, surprising, is 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.800 that the allegations are absurd. It sort of falls in 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:09.519 that heading of travesties of justice that a regular human 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.720 being on the street would be able to see, but 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.920 somehow the justice system can't absorb because of the rules 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:17.800 and the formality of it. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.760 And Charlotte, you've collaborated with Andrew on the Alabama Solution 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.240 and the Jinx, and you're also part of Netflix The 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:29.080 Innocence Files. Spending years immersed in prisons and rawful conviction 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.920 reporting can fundamentally change how you see power and truth. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.480 Did it change how you listen to or evaluate a 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.000 case like to Forests, especially when the system insists it 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:41.240 got the conviction right. 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.760 Yeah, I mean I think when you listen to a 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:49.120 podcast like Earwitness, it inspires you to want to interrogate 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.840 any conviction really because you know, in the case of 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:58.000 DeForest Johnson, you could read it on paper and say like, oh, well, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.920 they did have evidence to con to this man, like 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.720 there was a woman Violet who said that he was responsible. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.160 But when you dig just a little bit further, you 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.240 realize how weak the case against him might be. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:13.480 Yeah, Actually, Beth, I want to ask you about that 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.400 because one of the most unsettling aspects of your witnesses, 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.440 how much of the case hinges on contested memory and 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.600 a single eyewitness. When did you begin to realize that 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.840 this testimony wasn't just questionable, but potentially the foundation of 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:27.880 a wrongful conviction. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.640 So you know, this single eyewitness I think that you're 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:36.039 referring to is the fifteen year old whose tips to 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:40.040 police ended in to forrest and his co defendants arrest. 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:45.000 Her name is Yolanda Chambers. She's dead now, met a 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.440 very tragic end in two thousand and nine after working 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.120 off and on as a police informant for years, which 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.120 really sort of speaks to how our criminal legal system 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.200 often railroads, not just defendants, but witnesses as well. She 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.800 got ensnared and all that. But I think I realized 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.920 that this was a wrongful conviction when I read the 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.839 trial transcript that resulted in too Forrest's conviction and death sentence, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.520 and realized that the only evidence the state presented was 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.239 the ear witness. This is, of course, after the fifteen 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.839 year old witness fell apart and the state abandoned her, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.880 and then they used Violet Ellison, the ear witness, as 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.720 their star witness. And what she testified to can be 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:37.719 argued was hearsay. She claimed she overheard a jailhouse phone 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.240 call in which somebody that identified themselves as to Forrest 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.839 talked about the murder, and she eavesdropped on this call. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.760 That was the single piece of evidence that the state 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.160 presented to convict him. There's no forensic evidence, there's no 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.080 physical evidence, there was no murder weapon recovered, he had 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.240 an alibi, there was no eyewitness that placed him at 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.640 the scene. So that was it. When I read that 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.600 and really saw it on paper, I had already been 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.440 told that by his family, by his attorneys, I had 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.080 sat through a five hour court hearing. But when I 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.640 actually read through the transcript. That was my holy shit moment. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:18.040 I think it's worth pointing out that the prosecutors and 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.920 a lot of these cases are behaving in a way 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.920 that's equally irrational seeming right that there's a prosecutor who's 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.599 in court, sees all the evidence, there's no question that 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.599 some part of them is thinking, yeah, maybe I would 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.520 have turned over that exculpatory piece of evidence, or I'm 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.160 not sure this is the strongest case I've ever worked on, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.920 and yet they throw themselves into it with absolute conviction. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:49.200 And then when later somebody finds out that the prosecution 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:54.640 was deeply flawed and maybe they fudged something or flubbed 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.600 something that not only don't they question their own judgment, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.760 very often they will double down and bring the case 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.640 back for trial again and again, and it sort of 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.800 makes you realize that, you know, if you're a prosecutor, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.800 you might be the most senior law enforcement official who 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.480 should be deciding what cases should be brought, but very 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.360 often you're just assuming that it's an adversarial system, and 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.440 there you're always in the position of trying to get 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.840 a conviction, which is why you see cases like Tafarest 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.040 case where there's so many times when this case could 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.080 have been abandoned by the prosecutors, and yet they're still 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.960 convinced that he's the enemy and that you've got to 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:39.960 defeat your enemy. 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.120 So why is Tofares Johnson still on death row when 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.760 even prosecutors have called for a new trial. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.880 Yeah, that's a question I get all the time, and 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.800 I think that defies logic when you listen to your 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.280 witness and hear the facts of the case. That the 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.880 current district attorney in the county where he was convicted 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.120 did a full review of the conviction through his Conviction 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:08.480 Integrity Unit and said that this conviction can't stand. He 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:13.040 has filed multiple motions in court asking a court to 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.120 grant to forest a new trial, with the support of 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.160 the original prosecutor, a man named Jeff Wallace, who we 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.200 interviewed for ear witness and listeners can get to know 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.680 in the series. I have not found another capital case 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:32.120 anywhere around the country where the original prosecutor who asked 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.559 a jury to send the person to death row supports 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.840 a new trial. So with all of that, how is 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.560 he still sitting on death row? Well, it's in front 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.400 of a court right now, it's in front of a 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.400 new judge in Jefferson County. So there's a lot of 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.920 hope there that she's spending a lot of time looking 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.080 at all the evidence and the arguments and that the 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.199 right thing can still happen. But you also have the 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.880 Attorney General of Alabama, who represents the people, and their 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:07.040 position has always been to defend the original conviction at 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:11.839 all costs. The Attorney General's office has shown no even 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:18.160 curiosity about the District Attorney's findings in his conviction integrity review. 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:25.400 They called the DA's conviction review unsanctioned and even suggested 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.800 that he may have acted with misconducts, saying he acted 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.040 outside the scope of his duties, which is really incredible 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.960 if you think about, because prosecutors' jobs are not just 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.160 to convict people, but to make sure the right person 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:39.040 was convicted. 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.000 You know, it was very, very interesting while Beth was 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.240 making the podcast, you know, the same time as we 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.120 were all working on the Alabama solution, and I remember 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.800 some of the most interesting conversations we had was trying 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.000 to get into the psychology of those prosecutors and the 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.920 psychology of the people who were involved in convicting this man, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.320 who were now being presented with a really the wrong 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.560 case for his innocence, being Beth presenting it to them, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.960 and the experience of how they responded. You know what 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:13.160 that's like, That someone keeps pursuing their case despite the 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.880 fact that it's clearly wrong. It really makes you want 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:22.560 to question everybody who might be convicted in the prisons. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.400 And that was I think an experience working on the 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.280 Alabama Solution. We were making a film about the institutional 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.360 crisis of the Alabama prisons and the experience people have 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.440 in prisons, whether they are innocent or not. However, along 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.400 the way, we met so many men whose cases don't 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.840 add up. I want to just step back for a second. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.800 For those who haven't seen our film, you know, our 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.440 film starts with the premise that prisons across America are 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.720 run as black sites. And any journalist or filmmaker that 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.559 has worked on a film about prisons knows that the 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.760 only way you get to do that work is if 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.600 it is state sanctioned, if you get permission by the 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:08.240 wardens or the administration to visit the prison. You know, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.840 you can't speak with prisoners unless it's on recorded wall phones. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.680 You can't visit the prison to see what's happening inside 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.560 unless you have been approved by the state or the 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.560 warden to go inside. And I think because of that 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.280 secrecy and that state control, they get to control the 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.480 narrative too, and they get to control what quote unquote 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:32.559 evidence of how their systems are running gets put into 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:33.520 the public domain. 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.959 It's not just that it prevents people from getting too 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:43.200 much information. It's that the knowledge that journalists are not 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.840 going to come and see what happens actually creates a 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.520 culture of impunity where they then can take it to 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.240 the next level and just lie about what's happening. So 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.520 you see these cover ups happen where the Department of 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.240 Corrections will often not tell a family when somebody has 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.600 been killed inside the prison because they know they have 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.720 some liability a guard very often maybe somebody who's committed 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.080 a terrible crime against one of those men. But rather 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.280 than their internal affairs people coming in and saying, let's 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.360 put these three officers on ice, let's do an investigation, 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.400 they immediately start scrambling the witnesses to protect the guards. 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.680 So I guess the secrecy it's not just that you 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.480 don't get to see what you don't get to see 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.160 it's that it gives them the freedom to start lying 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.560 about lots of other stuff because they know nobody's going 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:35.200 to question it. 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.360 And you know, with our film, we were able to 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.880 overcome that sort of state control because we were speaking 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.920 to people on contraband cell phones, so we did not 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:50.120 have to wait for wardens to approve what we could 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.840 see inside or where we could go and visit in 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.560 the prison, because the people we were speaking with with 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.200 their phones could take us there and show us without 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.160 the state controlling it. And through that we saw a 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.280 lot more of the reality inside Alabama's prisons, and it 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:11.720 is very shocking when you realize the extent of the abuse, 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.240 the extent of the negligence, and the corruption. It's sort 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.360 of like you go through the looking glass. This is 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.920 the largest law enforcement agency in the state of Alabama, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.480 yet it is being run as a criminal enterprise. The 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.800 rate of overdose is happening inside their facilities are multiple 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.080 times higher than on the street. It's like everything is 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:38.360 topsy turvy. And the secrecy that exists in prisons is 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.080 part of what sustains this very abusive system because it 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.000 not only keeps secret the crimes committed by the officers 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.479 or the administration, But it also keeps secret the humanity 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.080 of the people who are inside the facilities, and it 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.520 makes it easier for the public to turn a blind 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.960 eye to what's happening. And I think in our story 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.599 telling in the film The Alabama Solution, and certainly in 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.800 the ear Witness, it's really important to bring back that 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.679 humanity that has been silenced. 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:10.800 Yeah, that's Beth. I'm just really curious, what do you 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.520 think about Alabama trying to silence to far As humanity 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.800 by not allowing him to speak to the media. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.040 It's so infuriating all of the barriers that the system 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.800 throws up with incarcerated people and their First Amendment rights. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:29.080 I honestly think there's a First Amendment case there. If 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.880 there's any attorney listening that likes to take up First 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.720 Amendment cases, that's a good one. We didn't get to 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.440 interview to Forrest for the podcast Earwitness, but I have 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.239 spoken to him several times, and I'm in regular communication 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.000 with his family members, both of his daughters, his mom, Donna, 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.840 and he's just a really incredible person. He is aware 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.760 of the podcast, he's read some of the press coverage, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.440 he's talked to his family members and community about it 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.200 at length, and has told me and his attorneys and 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.840 his family, you know, no matter what happens with his 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.720 legal case, he is so grateful that the truth is 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.240 out there, because, as you know, Gilbert, when people are 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.080 stripped of everything of their liberty, their freedom, their individuality, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.960 their humanity and put in a cage, the truth about 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.640 themselves is really all they have. And you know, he 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.720 has said that the lies that were told that got 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.880 him arrested, and then the lies that were told that 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.000 got him convicted, have bothered him just as much as 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.600 his wrongful conviction and incarceration, and so the fact that 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:42.280 there's now truth on the record in a really comprehensive way, 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.440 he's grateful for that. He is still very hopeful that 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.880 the right thing will happen. He has an incredible amount 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.760 of hope and grace. Every time I've talked to him, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:58.320 he's cracking jokes. He's super funny. He is sort of 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.840 the thread in his family that keeps everybody together. He's 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:07.600 got five kids, nineteen grandkids, and they're all in constant contact, 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.520 and to Forest is sort of the one that navigates 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.880 all the dynamics and keeps everybody sane and positive. And 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:20.000 here's just a little tiny insider thing that happened during 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.760 the making of The Alabama Solution that just blew me 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:28.640 away about the way that communities form inside prisons. Robert 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.040 Earl Counsel, also known as Kinetic Justice, who's one of 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.640 the primary men in the Alabama Solution. He has a 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.960 life without Parole sentence. He's never been on death row. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.840 But when we were talking during one conversation during the 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.040 making of the film, he said, Hey, the next time 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.520 you talk to Lil Russ, tell him. I said, hello, 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.000 Lil Russ is to Forest's nickname, And I was like, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.560 how in the world do you know to Forest? And 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.120 he told me that for a brief time, he was 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.200 incarcerated at Holman Prison and where death Row is, and 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.360 he was working as a runner inside the prison, and 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.720 he took meal trays over to death Row and would 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.280 like have conversations through the bars, you know, with some 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.520 of the men on death Row, and got to know 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.840 to Forest that way and feels a real connection with him. 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.080 And you know, of course, Kinetic knew that a podcast 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.640 was coming out about to Forest's case and was really 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.000 happy about that. So it's just amazing to me how 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:37.200 humans can maintain relationships and their humanity even when they 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.000 are locked away, thrown away in a cage, you know, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.640 away from the general public, as far away from society 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.600 as the government can put them. You know, humans are 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:48.440 still going to human. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.840 That's a great way of putting it. You know. It's 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.480 interesting you I came up earlier that you were working 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.119 on these projects at the same time. I'm just really curious. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:58.919 How did Beth come onto your radar and how did 0:17:58.960 --> 0:17:59.919 you start working together. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.879 Well, I was sitting I'm in my office here talking 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.639 to Charlotte, and we were going back and forth looking 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.640 at articles that had been written about the Alabama State 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.199 prison system. So we were looking at al dot com, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.760 and we were looking at the Alabama Reflector and all 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.960 the various news outlets, and we made a list of 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.360 all the reporters who were covering the prison system. And 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.280 we were already so devastated by what we were learning. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:27.760 We just thought, well, who are going to be the 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.520 intrepid reporters that have made this their beat. So we 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.080 went through the list and we started calling these reporters 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.280 and we said, when did you first get involved in 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.440 you know, prison reporting. And they said what And we said, 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.320 you know, when did you really get engaged in this 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.120 very disturbing situation. They were like, well, it's not really 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.760 my thing. I just usually I write about shopping centers, 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.600 but in this particular case, they handed me this and 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.080 Charlotte and I said, how is it possible there's nobody 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.359 in that state who considers this their mission. It's such 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.439 an important part of journalism. And then you know, we 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.919 started hearing Beth's name, and then Charlotte. How did we 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:04.840 first reach out to that? 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.800 A cold call? I probably sent her a maybe a 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.960 Facebook message and then a cold call. Yeah. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.919 I did get a Facebook message from Charlotte, and she 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.639 was very nice but formal. You know, I'm a filmmaker 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.399 in New York and I'm working with another filmmaker in 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.679 New York, and we're interested in Alabama prisons. As an 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.479 Alabama based journalist, you know, we're very aware of the 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.360 sort of parachuting in dynamic of like the New York 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.040 Times fly by. You know, they'll come down here and 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.399 use up the energy of local reporters and then go away. 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.080 But when Charlotte and I had that initial phone conversation, 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.080 I think we were on the phone, Charlotte for like 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.879 two and a half three hours that conversation. I remember 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:51.119 thinking like, this woman just fell into my life and 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.399 she's like my you know, sister from another mother. And 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.680 then you know, she told me about your work, Andrew, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.440 and I realized, oh, this is this is not fly by. 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:04.320 These these folks are like genuine and very invested and 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.240 Gilbert I should say that did turn out to be 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.960 the case. I mean, I don't think this film could 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:16.200 have been made without Andrew and Charlotte's dedication to investing 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.800 the time, the brain power coming down to Alabama over 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.679 and over and over again and spending weeks months at 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:28.560 a time on the ground, building relationships, embedding with multiple 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.440 stories down here. I mean, reporting on incarceration is hard, 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.399 but doing a system critique and a documentary film is 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.479 just Nobody else would do it. So I'm so glad 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.480 that they did, and really proud that I was a 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.000 small part of it, and so proud of the film. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:48.920 I want to just sort of go to a process 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.320 question for Andrew. When you encounter an idea that might 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.040 demand years of investigation, what tells you it's a story 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:57.280 that you have to pursue. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.879 When you get into these things, I think there's just 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:04.960 there's a natural sort of momentum and you either feel 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.080 it or you don't. Right, you start looking into a 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.000 story and you feel like, well, yeah, okay, I mean 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:12.919 I sort of feel like I know where this is going. 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.359 Then you give it some time to surprise you, and 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.119 if it doesn't surprise you, then it's probably better for 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.000 somebody else to do it. And in this case, I 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.200 think it happened very very early that we got locked 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.639 into this story because I had gone to Montgomery with 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.000 my daughter on sort of a road trip because we 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.600 were reading this book by Anthony ray Hinton, who had 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.800 been wrongfully convicted in Alabama. And when we were down there, 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.560 we met this prison chaplain who is in the film, 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:48.400 and that led to us getting this sort of unique access, 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.760 being able to go in and film a revival meeting. 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.240 And then when Charlotte and I went back down there, 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.560 we were told, you know, by the warden, well, don't 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.159 talk to any of the men. They're very dangerous and 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.600 they'll tell you stuff that's not true, and they'll try 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.879 to give you little pieces of paper and just you know, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.119 steer clear of those men. We'll give you two or 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.760 three people you can talk to, which, of course, if 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.040 you say that to a documentary filmmaker, were like, the 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:14.600 only people I don't want to talk to her the 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.840 three people that he's introducing me to. And then when 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.159 we went in there, the men were so shocked that 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.040 anyone was allowed in there with cameras, and then they 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:30.680 started calling us aside and saying, off camera, listen, if 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.720 you want to talk about this, if you're interested in this, 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.000 this is a horrific situation. They're not showing you what's 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:41.000 really going on in this prison, and started pointing out 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.200 to us areas of the prison where that's where they 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.199 have the solitary confinement. There are people that have been 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.600 in there for five years. Looking at other areas, there 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.840 was a you know, they have a dorm called the 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.919 Behavior Modification Unit, and that was a sight of a 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.879 tremendous amount of violence, and they were just telling us, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.480 your visit is curated and if you have any inclination 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:06.440 to talk to us, we need to tell our story. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:08.960 And that's when we discovered that some of them had 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.600 access to contraband cell phones, so we were going to 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:16.600 be able to have an unmediated unfiltered conversation. When you 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:20.200 walk into a situation like that, there's no turning back. 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:21.960 You're not going to say to those people. You know, 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.480 I realized that there're you know, people being murdered under 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.159 the noses of the taxpayers paying for this institution, and 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.240 that you guys are in desperate straits. But you know, 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.239 I have this baseball movie I want to work on 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.840 like it. Just it's out of the question that you 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.200