1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Gilbert King. Today we're introducing you 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: to the podcast ear Witness and the Alabama wontful conviction 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: case of Tafaris Johnson. As many Bone Valley listeners know, 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: after the attention Season one brought to Leo Schofield's case, 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Leo was finally released from prison after spending thirty six 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: years behind bars for a murder he did not commit. 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: And as fans of season three Graves County know, the 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: attention Maggie Freeling brought to Quincy Cross's case has led 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: key witnesses to recant their testimony, resulting in new evidentiary 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: hearings that could grant him a new trial and potentially 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: free him after decades of incarceration. There's something unique happening 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: across these Bone Valley series. Storytelling with heart grounded in 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: rigorous investigation is making a real difference where the courts 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: have often fallen short. We're seeing meaningful developments and it 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: underscores the urgency of reval visiting official narratives in cases 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: we believe resulted in wrongful convictions. This has been essential 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: to the work of Jason Flohm and the entire team 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: at Lava for Good. That's why we wanted you to 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: hear the story of Tafaris Johnson, who has been on 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: Alabama's death row for more than twenty five years. Beginning 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: January twenty eighth, we'll be releasing all episodes right here 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: in the Bone Valley Feed as Bone Valley Season four 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: Ear Witness available as a binge on Lava for Good 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: plus on Apple Podcasts. Then on February four, all episodes 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: will be released as a binge in the Free Bone 26 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: Valley Feed. I'm joined today by Beth Shelburne, the creator 27 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: and host of ear Witness, an award winning investigative journalist 28 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and writer and producer of the critically acclaimed documentary The 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: Alabama Solution. The film, currently streaming on HBO Max, has 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: earned widespread praise for its unfiltered look at systemic abuse, violence, 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: and human rights failures inside the Alabama Department of Corrections, 32 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: and has been shortlisted for an Academy Award. We're also 33 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: joined by the film's co directors, Andrew Direki and Charlotte Kaufman. Andrew, 34 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: I want to start with you before we dig into 35 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: The Alabama Solution. I'd love your take on ear Witness. 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: People know your work from Capturing the Freedmen's to The 37 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: Jinks and the Jinks Part two and your long commitment 38 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: to criminal justice storytelling. For someone deeply familiar with Alabama's system, 39 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: what stood out to you about Tafarist Johnson's case when 40 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: you first learned about it. 41 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: Well, I follow everything that Beth does anyway, and I 42 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: knew that if she was going to spend time on 43 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: this case, it was going to be infuriating. And one 44 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: of the things that's so, I don't know, surprising, is 45 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: that the allegations are absurd. It sort of falls in 46 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 2: that heading of travesties of justice that a regular human 47 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: being on the street would be able to see, but 48 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: somehow the justice system can't absorb because of the rules 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: and the formality of it. 50 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: And Charlotte, you've collaborated with Andrew on the Alabama Solution 51 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: and the Jinx, and you're also part of Netflix The 52 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: Innocence Files. Spending years immersed in prisons and rawful conviction 53 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: reporting can fundamentally change how you see power and truth. 54 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: Did it change how you listen to or evaluate a 55 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: case like to Forests, especially when the system insists it 56 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: got the conviction right. 57 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think when you listen to a 58 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: podcast like Earwitness, it inspires you to want to interrogate 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: any conviction really because you know, in the case of 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 3: DeForest Johnson, you could read it on paper and say like, oh, well, 61 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: they did have evidence to con to this man, like 62 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: there was a woman Violet who said that he was responsible. 63 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: But when you dig just a little bit further, you 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 3: realize how weak the case against him might be. 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Actually, Beth, I want to ask you about that 66 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: because one of the most unsettling aspects of your witnesses, 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: how much of the case hinges on contested memory and 68 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: a single eyewitness. When did you begin to realize that 69 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: this testimony wasn't just questionable, but potentially the foundation of 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: a wrongful conviction. 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 4: So you know, this single eyewitness I think that you're 72 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 4: referring to is the fifteen year old whose tips to 73 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 4: police ended in to forrest and his co defendants arrest. 74 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: Her name is Yolanda Chambers. She's dead now, met a 75 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 4: very tragic end in two thousand and nine after working 76 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 4: off and on as a police informant for years, which 77 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 4: really sort of speaks to how our criminal legal system 78 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 4: often railroads, not just defendants, but witnesses as well. She 79 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: got ensnared and all that. But I think I realized 80 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 4: that this was a wrongful conviction when I read the 81 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 4: trial transcript that resulted in too Forrest's conviction and death sentence, 82 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 4: and realized that the only evidence the state presented was 83 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,239 Speaker 4: the ear witness. This is, of course, after the fifteen 84 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 4: year old witness fell apart and the state abandoned her, 85 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 4: and then they used Violet Ellison, the ear witness, as 86 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 4: their star witness. And what she testified to can be 87 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 4: argued was hearsay. She claimed she overheard a jailhouse phone 88 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: call in which somebody that identified themselves as to Forrest 89 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: talked about the murder, and she eavesdropped on this call. 90 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 4: That was the single piece of evidence that the state 91 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 4: presented to convict him. There's no forensic evidence, there's no 92 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 4: physical evidence, there was no murder weapon recovered, he had 93 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 4: an alibi, there was no eyewitness that placed him at 94 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 4: the scene. So that was it. When I read that 95 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 4: and really saw it on paper, I had already been 96 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 4: told that by his family, by his attorneys, I had 97 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 4: sat through a five hour court hearing. But when I 98 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 4: actually read through the transcript. That was my holy shit moment. 99 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: I think it's worth pointing out that the prosecutors and 100 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: a lot of these cases are behaving in a way 101 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: that's equally irrational seeming right that there's a prosecutor who's 102 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: in court, sees all the evidence, there's no question that 103 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 2: some part of them is thinking, yeah, maybe I would 104 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: have turned over that exculpatory piece of evidence, or I'm 105 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: not sure this is the strongest case I've ever worked on, 106 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 2: and yet they throw themselves into it with absolute conviction. 107 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: And then when later somebody finds out that the prosecution 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: was deeply flawed and maybe they fudged something or flubbed 109 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: something that not only don't they question their own judgment, 110 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: very often they will double down and bring the case 111 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: back for trial again and again, and it sort of 112 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: makes you realize that, you know, if you're a prosecutor, 113 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: you might be the most senior law enforcement official who 114 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: should be deciding what cases should be brought, but very 115 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: often you're just assuming that it's an adversarial system, and 116 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: there you're always in the position of trying to get 117 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: a conviction, which is why you see cases like Tafarest 118 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: case where there's so many times when this case could 119 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: have been abandoned by the prosecutors, and yet they're still 120 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: convinced that he's the enemy and that you've got to 121 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: defeat your enemy. 122 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: So why is Tofares Johnson still on death row when 123 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: even prosecutors have called for a new trial. 124 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a question I get all the time, and 125 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 4: I think that defies logic when you listen to your 126 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 4: witness and hear the facts of the case. That the 127 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 4: current district attorney in the county where he was convicted 128 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 4: did a full review of the conviction through his Conviction 129 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 4: Integrity Unit and said that this conviction can't stand. He 130 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: has filed multiple motions in court asking a court to 131 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 4: grant to forest a new trial, with the support of 132 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 4: the original prosecutor, a man named Jeff Wallace, who we 133 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: interviewed for ear witness and listeners can get to know 134 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 4: in the series. I have not found another capital case 135 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: anywhere around the country where the original prosecutor who asked 136 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 4: a jury to send the person to death row supports 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 4: a new trial. So with all of that, how is 138 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 4: he still sitting on death row? Well, it's in front 139 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 4: of a court right now, it's in front of a 140 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 4: new judge in Jefferson County. So there's a lot of 141 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 4: hope there that she's spending a lot of time looking 142 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 4: at all the evidence and the arguments and that the 143 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 4: right thing can still happen. But you also have the 144 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 4: Attorney General of Alabama, who represents the people, and their 145 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 4: position has always been to defend the original conviction at 146 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 4: all costs. The Attorney General's office has shown no even 147 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 4: curiosity about the District Attorney's findings in his conviction integrity review. 148 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 4: They called the DA's conviction review unsanctioned and even suggested 149 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 4: that he may have acted with misconducts, saying he acted 150 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: outside the scope of his duties, which is really incredible 151 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 4: if you think about, because prosecutors' jobs are not just 152 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 4: to convict people, but to make sure the right person 153 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 4: was convicted. 154 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: You know, it was very, very interesting while Beth was 155 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: making the podcast, you know, the same time as we 156 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 3: were all working on the Alabama solution, and I remember 157 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: some of the most interesting conversations we had was trying 158 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: to get into the psychology of those prosecutors and the 159 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: psychology of the people who were involved in convicting this man, 160 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 3: who were now being presented with a really the wrong 161 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 3: case for his innocence, being Beth presenting it to them, 162 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: and the experience of how they responded. You know what 163 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: that's like, That someone keeps pursuing their case despite the 164 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: fact that it's clearly wrong. It really makes you want 165 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: to question everybody who might be convicted in the prisons. 166 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: And that was I think an experience working on the 167 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 3: Alabama Solution. We were making a film about the institutional 168 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: crisis of the Alabama prisons and the experience people have 169 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: in prisons, whether they are innocent or not. However, along 170 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: the way, we met so many men whose cases don't 171 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: add up. I want to just step back for a second. 172 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: For those who haven't seen our film, you know, our 173 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 3: film starts with the premise that prisons across America are 174 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: run as black sites. And any journalist or filmmaker that 175 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 3: has worked on a film about prisons knows that the 176 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: only way you get to do that work is if 177 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: it is state sanctioned, if you get permission by the 178 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: wardens or the administration to visit the prison. You know, 179 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 3: you can't speak with prisoners unless it's on recorded wall phones. 180 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 3: You can't visit the prison to see what's happening inside 181 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 3: unless you have been approved by the state or the 182 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 3: warden to go inside. And I think because of that 183 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: secrecy and that state control, they get to control the 184 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 3: narrative too, and they get to control what quote unquote 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 3: evidence of how their systems are running gets put into 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 3: the public domain. 187 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 2: It's not just that it prevents people from getting too 188 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: much information. It's that the knowledge that journalists are not 189 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: going to come and see what happens actually creates a 190 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: culture of impunity where they then can take it to 191 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: the next level and just lie about what's happening. So 192 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: you see these cover ups happen where the Department of 193 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: Corrections will often not tell a family when somebody has 194 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: been killed inside the prison because they know they have 195 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: some liability a guard very often maybe somebody who's committed 196 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: a terrible crime against one of those men. But rather 197 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: than their internal affairs people coming in and saying, let's 198 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: put these three officers on ice, let's do an investigation, 199 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: they immediately start scrambling the witnesses to protect the guards. 200 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: So I guess the secrecy it's not just that you 201 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: don't get to see what you don't get to see 202 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: it's that it gives them the freedom to start lying 203 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: about lots of other stuff because they know nobody's going 204 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: to question it. 205 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: And you know, with our film, we were able to 206 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: overcome that sort of state control because we were speaking 207 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: to people on contraband cell phones, so we did not 208 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 3: have to wait for wardens to approve what we could 209 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: see inside or where we could go and visit in 210 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: the prison, because the people we were speaking with with 211 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 3: their phones could take us there and show us without 212 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: the state controlling it. And through that we saw a 213 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: lot more of the reality inside Alabama's prisons, and it 214 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: is very shocking when you realize the extent of the abuse, 215 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: the extent of the negligence, and the corruption. It's sort 216 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 3: of like you go through the looking glass. This is 217 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: the largest law enforcement agency in the state of Alabama, 218 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 3: yet it is being run as a criminal enterprise. The 219 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: rate of overdose is happening inside their facilities are multiple 220 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 3: times higher than on the street. It's like everything is 221 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: topsy turvy. And the secrecy that exists in prisons is 222 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 3: part of what sustains this very abusive system because it 223 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: not only keeps secret the crimes committed by the officers 224 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,479 Speaker 3: or the administration, But it also keeps secret the humanity 225 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 3: of the people who are inside the facilities, and it 226 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: makes it easier for the public to turn a blind 227 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 3: eye to what's happening. And I think in our story 228 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 3: telling in the film The Alabama Solution, and certainly in 229 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 3: the ear Witness, it's really important to bring back that 230 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 3: humanity that has been silenced. 231 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Beth. I'm just really curious, what do you 232 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: think about Alabama trying to silence to far As humanity 233 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: by not allowing him to speak to the media. 234 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 4: It's so infuriating all of the barriers that the system 235 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 4: throws up with incarcerated people and their First Amendment rights. 236 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: I honestly think there's a First Amendment case there. If 237 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 4: there's any attorney listening that likes to take up First 238 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 4: Amendment cases, that's a good one. We didn't get to 239 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 4: interview to Forrest for the podcast Earwitness, but I have 240 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,239 Speaker 4: spoken to him several times, and I'm in regular communication 241 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 4: with his family members, both of his daughters, his mom, Donna, 242 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 4: and he's just a really incredible person. He is aware 243 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 4: of the podcast, he's read some of the press coverage, 244 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 4: he's talked to his family members and community about it 245 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 4: at length, and has told me and his attorneys and 246 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 4: his family, you know, no matter what happens with his 247 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 4: legal case, he is so grateful that the truth is 248 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: out there, because, as you know, Gilbert, when people are 249 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: stripped of everything of their liberty, their freedom, their individuality, 250 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 4: their humanity and put in a cage, the truth about 251 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 4: themselves is really all they have. And you know, he 252 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 4: has said that the lies that were told that got 253 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 4: him arrested, and then the lies that were told that 254 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 4: got him convicted, have bothered him just as much as 255 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 4: his wrongful conviction and incarceration, and so the fact that 256 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 4: there's now truth on the record in a really comprehensive way, 257 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 4: he's grateful for that. He is still very hopeful that 258 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 4: the right thing will happen. He has an incredible amount 259 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 4: of hope and grace. Every time I've talked to him, 260 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: he's cracking jokes. He's super funny. He is sort of 261 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: the thread in his family that keeps everybody together. He's 262 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 4: got five kids, nineteen grandkids, and they're all in constant contact, 263 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: and to Forest is sort of the one that navigates 264 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 4: all the dynamics and keeps everybody sane and positive. And 265 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 4: here's just a little tiny insider thing that happened during 266 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 4: the making of The Alabama Solution that just blew me 267 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 4: away about the way that communities form inside prisons. Robert 268 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 4: Earl Counsel, also known as Kinetic Justice, who's one of 269 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 4: the primary men in the Alabama Solution. He has a 270 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: life without Parole sentence. He's never been on death row. 271 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: But when we were talking during one conversation during the 272 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 4: making of the film, he said, Hey, the next time 273 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 4: you talk to Lil Russ, tell him. I said, hello, 274 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 4: Lil Russ is to Forest's nickname, And I was like, 275 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: how in the world do you know to Forest? And 276 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 4: he told me that for a brief time, he was 277 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 4: incarcerated at Holman Prison and where death Row is, and 278 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 4: he was working as a runner inside the prison, and 279 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 4: he took meal trays over to death Row and would 280 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 4: like have conversations through the bars, you know, with some 281 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 4: of the men on death Row, and got to know 282 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: to Forest that way and feels a real connection with him. 283 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 4: And you know, of course, Kinetic knew that a podcast 284 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 4: was coming out about to Forest's case and was really 285 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 4: happy about that. So it's just amazing to me how 286 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 4: humans can maintain relationships and their humanity even when they 287 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: are locked away, thrown away in a cage, you know, 288 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 4: away from the general public, as far away from society 289 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: as the government can put them. You know, humans are 290 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 4: still going to human. 291 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: That's a great way of putting it. You know. It's 292 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: interesting you I came up earlier that you were working 293 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: on these projects at the same time. I'm just really curious. 294 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: How did Beth come onto your radar and how did 295 00:17:58,960 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: you start working together. 296 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 2: Well, I was sitting I'm in my office here talking 297 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: to Charlotte, and we were going back and forth looking 298 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: at articles that had been written about the Alabama State 299 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 2: prison system. So we were looking at al dot com, 300 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: and we were looking at the Alabama Reflector and all 301 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: the various news outlets, and we made a list of 302 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 2: all the reporters who were covering the prison system. And 303 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: we were already so devastated by what we were learning. 304 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: We just thought, well, who are going to be the 305 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: intrepid reporters that have made this their beat. So we 306 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: went through the list and we started calling these reporters 307 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: and we said, when did you first get involved in 308 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: you know, prison reporting. And they said what And we said, 309 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: you know, when did you really get engaged in this 310 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: very disturbing situation. They were like, well, it's not really 311 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: my thing. I just usually I write about shopping centers, 312 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: but in this particular case, they handed me this and 313 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: Charlotte and I said, how is it possible there's nobody 314 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: in that state who considers this their mission. It's such 315 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: an important part of journalism. And then you know, we 316 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: started hearing Beth's name, and then Charlotte. How did we 317 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: first reach out to that? 318 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: A cold call? I probably sent her a maybe a 319 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 3: Facebook message and then a cold call. Yeah. 320 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 4: I did get a Facebook message from Charlotte, and she 321 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 4: was very nice but formal. You know, I'm a filmmaker 322 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 4: in New York and I'm working with another filmmaker in 323 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 4: New York, and we're interested in Alabama prisons. As an 324 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 4: Alabama based journalist, you know, we're very aware of the 325 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 4: sort of parachuting in dynamic of like the New York 326 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 4: Times fly by. You know, they'll come down here and 327 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 4: use up the energy of local reporters and then go away. 328 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: But when Charlotte and I had that initial phone conversation, 329 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 4: I think we were on the phone, Charlotte for like 330 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 4: two and a half three hours that conversation. I remember 331 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 4: thinking like, this woman just fell into my life and 332 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 4: she's like my you know, sister from another mother. And 333 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 4: then you know, she told me about your work, Andrew, 334 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 4: and I realized, oh, this is this is not fly by. 335 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 4: These these folks are like genuine and very invested and 336 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 4: Gilbert I should say that did turn out to be 337 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 4: the case. I mean, I don't think this film could 338 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 4: have been made without Andrew and Charlotte's dedication to investing 339 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 4: the time, the brain power coming down to Alabama over 340 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 4: and over and over again and spending weeks months at 341 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 4: a time on the ground, building relationships, embedding with multiple 342 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 4: stories down here. I mean, reporting on incarceration is hard, 343 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 4: but doing a system critique and a documentary film is 344 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 4: just Nobody else would do it. So I'm so glad 345 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 4: that they did, and really proud that I was a 346 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: small part of it, and so proud of the film. 347 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: I want to just sort of go to a process 348 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: question for Andrew. When you encounter an idea that might 349 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: demand years of investigation, what tells you it's a story 350 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: that you have to pursue. 351 00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 2: When you get into these things, I think there's just 352 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 2: there's a natural sort of momentum and you either feel 353 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: it or you don't. Right, you start looking into a 354 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: story and you feel like, well, yeah, okay, I mean 355 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: I sort of feel like I know where this is going. 356 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: Then you give it some time to surprise you, and 357 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: if it doesn't surprise you, then it's probably better for 358 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: somebody else to do it. And in this case, I 359 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: think it happened very very early that we got locked 360 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 2: into this story because I had gone to Montgomery with 361 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: my daughter on sort of a road trip because we 362 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: were reading this book by Anthony ray Hinton, who had 363 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted in Alabama. And when we were down there, 364 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: we met this prison chaplain who is in the film, 365 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 2: and that led to us getting this sort of unique access, 366 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: being able to go in and film a revival meeting. 367 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: And then when Charlotte and I went back down there, 368 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: we were told, you know, by the warden, well, don't 369 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: talk to any of the men. They're very dangerous and 370 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: they'll tell you stuff that's not true, and they'll try 371 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: to give you little pieces of paper and just you know, 372 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 2: steer clear of those men. We'll give you two or 373 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: three people you can talk to, which, of course, if 374 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: you say that to a documentary filmmaker, were like, the 375 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: only people I don't want to talk to her the 376 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: three people that he's introducing me to. And then when 377 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 2: we went in there, the men were so shocked that 378 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: anyone was allowed in there with cameras, and then they 379 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: started calling us aside and saying, off camera, listen, if 380 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: you want to talk about this, if you're interested in this, 381 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: this is a horrific situation. They're not showing you what's 382 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: really going on in this prison, and started pointing out 383 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: to us areas of the prison where that's where they 384 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 2: have the solitary confinement. There are people that have been 385 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: in there for five years. Looking at other areas, there 386 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: was a you know, they have a dorm called the 387 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: Behavior Modification Unit, and that was a sight of a 388 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: tremendous amount of violence, and they were just telling us, 389 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: your visit is curated and if you have any inclination 390 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: to talk to us, we need to tell our story. 391 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: And that's when we discovered that some of them had 392 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: access to contraband cell phones, so we were going to 393 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: be able to have an unmediated unfiltered conversation. When you 394 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: walk into a situation like that, there's no turning back. 395 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: You're not going to say to those people. You know, 396 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: I realized that there're you know, people being murdered under 397 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 2: the noses of the taxpayers paying for this institution, and 398 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: that you guys are in desperate straits. But you know, 399 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 2: I have this baseball movie I want to work on 400 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: like it. Just it's out of the question that you 401 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: would walk out of that. Just it's like an obligation. 402 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you mentioned surprises, Andrew, and your your 403 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: work is kind of known for having pretty significant surprises. 404 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering because now I know, Beth, you tried 405 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: to speak with Alabama's Attorney General, Steve Marshall, and at 406 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: the time he would not talk, But Andrew and Charlotte 407 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: he did speak for you in the Alabama Solution and 408 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: just talk about why it was important to get him 409 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: on record and what that was like trying to get 410 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: him to talk. 411 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: Well. As Andrew was saying, we felt compelled to make 412 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 3: the film after that first visit to the prisons, but 413 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 3: we didn't know what the story was going to be. 414 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: We didn't know what the angle would be We just 415 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 3: wanted to understand what was happening inside Alabama's prisons as 416 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 3: a way to understand more broadly, you know, what's happening 417 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: with criminal justice in America, and we approached him with 418 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 3: that interest. And I think, you know, looking at Andrew's 419 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 3: prior work, The Jinx is a series that investigates Bob 420 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 3: Drst who's very wealthy that got away with murder for many, 421 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 3: many years, and due to the investigative work Andrew did, 422 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: eventually got prosecuted. So I think, you know, for Steve Marshall, 423 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: he saw that we were interested just in understanding his 424 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: position on criminal justice and that our work had been 425 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: fair in the past, and he was willing to sit 426 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 3: down with us. And I think for us going into 427 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 3: that interview wasn't trying to get, you know, a gotcha 428 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 3: moment or trying to criticize him right in the interview 429 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: or anything like that. We genuinely wanted to know how 430 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 3: he thinks about the criminal justice system and just give 431 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: him the space to explain his worldview and the way 432 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: he justifies the crisis. 433 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: We've been able to see through the documentary that when 434 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: he says there's some theory that we have a systemic 435 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 2: problem within all of our facilities, and I wholeheartedly disagree 436 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: with that. Well, he's saying, you know what, call that 437 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: his truth or call that his cover story. But we've 438 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: just watched the result of his ignoring the prison problem 439 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: that is under his nose. And so when you see 440 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: those two things juxtaposts, it's much more powerful than if 441 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: I'm sitting in front of him saying isn't it true, sir? 442 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 2: That let the audience discover that, and boy, they do 443 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: discover it. 444 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: And I think the other thing that's important in speaking 445 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 3: to state actors is we we talked a lot about 446 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: the concept of the banality of evil, which is, you know, 447 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: Hannah Ern's theory to understand how the atrocities that occurred 448 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: in World War Two occurred. It's not always just like 449 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 3: one psychopathic bad actor who's deciding to kill people or whatnot. 450 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 3: It's a lot of people kind of just doing their job, 451 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 3: coming up with their own justification of it. And I 452 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: think being able to kind of see not only the 453 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: type of very jaw dropping violence of a guard like 454 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: Officer Gatson, but to also then see someone like Steve 455 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: Marshall just sitting in his suit and very calmly explaining 456 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: how he does his job. Like that's two sides of 457 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 3: the picture. Like we need to understand both those things 458 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 3: to get what's driving the issues. And I think that's 459 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 3: also what Beth gets at really well in ear Witness 460 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 3: is elements of the banality of evil too, that it 461 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: can kind of just be for a lot of people, 462 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 3: it's just like doing their job and then someone ends 463 00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 3: up on death row. 464 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: You know, that's a really good point. You know, we 465 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: really just have time for like one more question, but 466 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: I want it to be all of you, and it's 467 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: an important one for me because I think about it 468 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: all the time and I'm just curious what you guys think. 469 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: And it's really about the balance between journalism and advocacy. 470 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: You know, you spend years and years on these cases 471 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: and stories and you're convinced after a while that you 472 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: know what happened, and eventually it infuriates you. So as 473 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: journalists and storytellers, how do you balance that narratively when 474 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: you're telling these stories. 475 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 2: Well, there's this sort of big question mark that keeps arising, 476 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: especially in the US where you have like conservative commentators 477 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: who are fighting with liberal versions of the news or 478 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 2: progressive versions of news, and this idea of like false equivalency, 479 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: or having to build two sides of a case to 480 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: make it appear that, you know, it's one person's opinion 481 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: versus another person's opinion, and at all you know everybody's right, 482 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 2: And the reality is, when you get into some of 483 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 2: these stories and circumstances, you find that one side is 484 00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: terribly wrong. 485 00:27:59,840 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 4: Right. 486 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: You don't always find that, But when you're Beth and 487 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: you're working on Too Forest's case and you're seeing the 488 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 2: most absurd legal arguments being made and then being replaced 489 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: by alternate, equally absurd legal arguments, you know he will 490 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: obviously he did it because we have this incredibly strong 491 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: piece of evidence and this wonderful witness. Oh, by the way, 492 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: your evidence isn't strong and your witness is terrible. Yes, well, 493 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: that's we've always been saying. You know, there's this other 494 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: piece of evidence that indicates So I think that there 495 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,239 Speaker 2: is a danger to this false equivalency, to saying that. 496 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: You know, you go in as a dispassionate journalist and 497 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 2: you see what's going on the Alabama State prison system, 498 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: you should make a movie that says, yes, it's true 499 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: that we're murdering people in the prison, and on the 500 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: other hand, crime is bad. Okay, Well, we all want 501 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: safe communities. But if you're trying to make a film 502 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: that reveals something, sometimes what you reveal is sometimes they're 503 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: not good arguments on both sides. And that's what we found, 504 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: and I think that's what Beth found is balances you 505 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: want to be You just recognize that the story you're 506 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: going to be explaining is to the average person going 507 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: to not be a two sided story. It's going to 508 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: be more bad than good, or it's going to be 509 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: more clear that law enforcement officers shouldn't be murdering people 510 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: in their care. So at that point, you're telling the 511 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: story in a neutral way. Truly, you're still telling an 512 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: honest story and using evidence and using journalistic techniques that 513 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: are ethical, but you just can't make an argument for 514 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: the other side because they're killing people. 515 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a great place to end up. 516 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: I want to. 517 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: Thank Beth Shelburn, Andrew Jureki, and Charlotte Kauffman for joining 518 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: us to talk about ear Witness and the Alabama Solution, 519 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: now streaming on HBO, mex and Guys congratulations to all 520 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: of you on telling a story that's not only powerful 521 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: but deeply necessary. Thank you, Andrew, Charlotte and Beth. 522 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: Anything else you guys want to add, I would just 523 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: say that the work that Beth is doing and has 524 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: been doing the state of Alabama is in very short supply. 525 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: There's a a earth of people that are reporting locally 526 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: that have the fortitude and the willingness to devote their 527 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 2: lives to this. So I think it's so important to 528 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 2: try to read those stories and engage and try to 529 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: learn more about what's happening in your own community, especially 530 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: in your prisons. And I would hope also that some 531 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: people would go to the website for the film, which 532 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: is not just a promotional website. It's really quite a 533 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: deep and interesting dive into what's actually going on and 534 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: the full investigation that we did along with Beth, not 535 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: just of the particular murders and particular deaths that we 536 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: see in the film, but also around thirteen hundred and 537 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: seventy seven deaths that have happened since we started making 538 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: the film. And also you can go to that website, 539 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: the Alabama Solution dot com, and it will give you 540 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: some action items you can do very easily, like it 541 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: will let you generate a letter to go to the 542 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: governor's office and go to the Department of Corrections. And 543 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: I think that kind of individual effort by real people saying, hey, 544 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: we don't want this to continue. You know, you listen 545 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: to a podcast or you read an article and you think, well, 546 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: maybe my opinion doesn't matter, or there are millions of people, 547 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: but the reality is that politicians and people in positions 548 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: of power listen to voters, and they listen to Americans 549 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: and they just have to be responsive to it. So 550 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: it does matter. So I hope people will go there 551 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: and click and put in their email address and be 552 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: part of a part of the solution, their actual solution. 553 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 3: And I would also just add that, you know, I 554 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: know Bone Valley listeners appreciate not just revealing investigative reporting, 555 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: but also really good storytelling that's engaging and suspenseful. And 556 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: I think both ear Wetness and the Alabama Solution also 557 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: prioritize that. So it's not just educating you on an 558 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 3: urgent institutional crisis or urgent issue of a wrongful conviction. 559 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 3: But we knew that because the issues were so urgent, 560 00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: we had to tell the story like it was a 561 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 3: thriller so that we would get as many people engaged 562 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 3: as possible. And I think it's very much in the 563 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 3: spirit of your incredible series Bone Valley and of ear Witness, 564 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 3: and it's quite an honor to get to talk about 565 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 3: our film with you and to reach all of your 566 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: many listeners, So thank you so much for having us. 567 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 4: You know, Charlotte and I and Andrew have talked a 568 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 4: lot during the making of The Alabama Solution about how 569 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 4: these men were not just sources for the film. They 570 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 4: were kind of our teachers and our guides into this 571 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 4: world that for us we dip in and out of 572 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 4: as journalists and filmmakers. But this is their reality twenty 573 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 4: four to seven, and we had the privilege of being 574 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: proximant to them and their experience inside the prison system 575 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 4: and developing relationships not just with them, but with many 576 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 4: other people who aren't in the film but helped inform 577 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 4: our storytelling. And we hope that the film and the 578 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 4: ear Witness series can provide that kind of opportunity for 579 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 4: listeners who may not know anybody who's locked up, may 580 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 4: not have a family member or a friend that has 581 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 4: spent any time in jail or prison, but this kind 582 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 4: of storytelling gives them a front row seat where you 583 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 4: can get proximate and get as close to the system 584 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 4: as possible without being in it. And that kind of 585 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 4: proximity is what changes people's hearts and minds, and it 586 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 4: takes prison and mass incarceration out of the abstract and 587 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 4: makes it real and human. And I think that's really 588 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 4: how we're going to end up changing the system. 589 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: Beginning January twenty eighth, we'll be releasing all episodes of 590 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: Tafarus Johnson's story right here in the Bone Valley Feed 591 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: as Bone Valley Season four Ear Witness, available to binge 592 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: on Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. Then on 593 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: February four, the full series will be released as a 594 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: binge in the free Bone Valley Feed. This is a 595 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: case that demands attention, and we hope you'll listen, share it, 596 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: and stay with us as the story unfolds. And thank you, 597 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: as always for listening.