Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With
Speaker 1: tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and
Speaker 1: I am an editor at how stuff works dot com.
Speaker 1: Sitting across from me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 1: I want my two dollars. I haven't thought about that
Speaker 1: in a long time. Actually, I accorded from that movie
Speaker 1: not too long ago. But you know what, it's a
Speaker 1: good one. Not sense then, not sense then. So today
Speaker 1: we're actually gonna tackle a pretty serious subject, but it's
Speaker 1: it's one that has had a lot of attention recently
Speaker 1: for various reasons. Um, we're gonna talk about cyber bullying,
Speaker 1: and this kind of relates to a previous episode we
Speaker 1: recorded a couple of years ago, the about internet trolls, right,
Speaker 1: controlls work, cyber bullying being a sort of a specific
Speaker 1: type of internet troll. Yeah, yeah, And um, I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting we're gonna have to people will
Speaker 1: ask about this. Cyber bullying in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: is not especially different in character from Frankly bullying in person.
Speaker 1: It's just using the tools of the internet. You know,
Speaker 1: now that we have the ability to publish instantly and frequently. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, people use those tools to pick on others. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, and we've been seeing a lot of this
Speaker 1: in the news, uh, from like I said, from various sources,
Speaker 1: over various um activities, you know, things that have happened recently.
Speaker 1: But the one that kind of spurred this, at least
Speaker 1: from my perspective, was the whole Rebecca Black phenomenon train wreck,
Speaker 1: however you want to call it. Right, So, for the
Speaker 1: few of you out there who may not have heard
Speaker 1: of who of Rebecca Black? I suspect most of you
Speaker 1: probably have. Rebecca Black is a thirteen year old girl
Speaker 1: who received an amazing gift her mom um paid for
Speaker 1: her to have a music video done. And it's a
Speaker 1: The song is called Friday and let's just get this
Speaker 1: all of the way. It is not a good song.
Speaker 1: It is very let's let's the lyrics are banal, would
Speaker 1: you yes? The tune itself is pretty catchy, you know
Speaker 1: it's it's it's one of those that's that's been engineered
Speaker 1: to get stuck in your head and stay there until
Speaker 1: you start to go crazy. But Rebecca Black did not
Speaker 1: write the song but not but she did. She did
Speaker 1: perform it, and the song features her voice being auto
Speaker 1: tuned to the point where it sounds almost robotic and
Speaker 1: um and like I said, the lyrics are really really boring,
Speaker 1: but not really that's not really here nor there. She
Speaker 1: uploaded the video to YouTube and then, um, I think
Speaker 1: it was on like February tenth, two thousand eleven that
Speaker 1: she uploaded it to YouTube, and it took about a week.
Speaker 1: But then people started to to share this video and
Speaker 1: it went totally viral, and before you knew it, there
Speaker 1: were thousands and thousands of views of this video. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had read an article in preparation on Mashable by
Speaker 1: Todd Wasserman who was basically charting it. And yes, you
Speaker 1: know February tenth, this when it was initially published. Uh
Speaker 1: you remember Michael J. Nelson, don't you? Yes? Yes, of
Speaker 1: Mystery Science Theater three thousand and tracks fame. Um. He
Speaker 1: tweeted about it on his Twitter account to he's got
Speaker 1: According to Wasserman, more than nineteen thousand followers, probably had more.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually look this morning right before we decided
Speaker 1: to do this podcast, but um basically said, you know,
Speaker 1: this is a catchy song, but it also answers the
Speaker 1: question what's the worst video ever made? It's a quote
Speaker 1: from that and and of course when someone who is
Speaker 1: got that level of followers, you know, you're it's going
Speaker 1: to attract attention. And that's around the time that it
Speaker 1: started picking up, and that was in March. So really,
Speaker 1: I should also point out that I think Total Eclipse
Speaker 1: of the Heart still gives it a run for the
Speaker 1: money as total worst video ever made. But anyway, I'm
Speaker 1: not fond of the song to begin with, let alone
Speaker 1: the video turn around Bright Eyes the uh. At the
Speaker 1: time of the recording of this podcast, which is in
Speaker 1: late March right now, according to YouTube, the video has
Speaker 1: had forty seven million, seventy six thousand, three hundred four views.
Speaker 1: Oh there's another one. Yeah, And and we should also
Speaker 1: add that YouTube does not update these in real time,
Speaker 1: that the numbers update to a schedule that makes sense
Speaker 1: to YouTube basically in batches. Yeah, so so it could
Speaker 1: be that that number is, of course not entirely accurate.
Speaker 1: Even as I'm saying this right now into the microphone.
Speaker 1: Of course, will not be accurate by the time you
Speaker 1: hear this podcast, so million views, that's a lot. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's an incredible And the song is actually on iTunes
Speaker 1: as well. You can purchase the song on iTunes, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people have done that, and you could
Speaker 1: argue that maybe it's in a sense of irony, they're
Speaker 1: they're ordering it because they think it's so bad. It's
Speaker 1: it's funny, and therefore they're going to get the song.
Speaker 1: Some people may legitimately like the song, although they may
Speaker 1: also say that it's a terrible song. Personally, Like I said,
Speaker 1: I think the tune is kind of catchy. I think
Speaker 1: the the the lyrics again are so ridiculously plain, Like
Speaker 1: it's just it's explaining such a mundane experience that you know,
Speaker 1: you can't help but think, wow, this is kind of
Speaker 1: this is really ridiculous, right in a nutshell. It's Friday,
Speaker 1: and she's happy about that because it means it's the weekend.
Speaker 1: It's the weekend. And I think it's when you hear
Speaker 1: that Sunday comes afterward. That was the point where I
Speaker 1: was like, really, I mean, just the going down and
Speaker 1: have to get a bowl, have to eat your serial
Speaker 1: that was That was a little rough too. But here's
Speaker 1: here's where we're leading with this. This video has prompted
Speaker 1: a lot of people to leave extremely negative comments on
Speaker 1: the YouTube video. Now I would not I don't argue
Speaker 1: that leaving a negative comment for a bad video and
Speaker 1: saying like, wow, this was a really dumb song or
Speaker 1: this was a really dumb video. That's one thing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to point out it may sound since we're
Speaker 1: both kind of negative on the song. I don't want
Speaker 1: to give anyone the wrong impression and think that we
Speaker 1: are are anti Rebecca Black or the songwriter, or or
Speaker 1: anyone involved with it. I mean, it's, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: everyone involved is making an attempt to entertain people, and
Speaker 1: you could say that it was, you know, an unsuccessful attempt,
Speaker 1: or at least it wasn't successful in the way they
Speaker 1: had intended. Right, Even even star musicians can write yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not And I'm certainly you know you have the
Speaker 1: old the old saying well, let's see you try it. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't ever written a song, so I
Speaker 1: can't really talk. And you know what, there's some bad
Speaker 1: songs out there that have become incredibly popular and became standards.
Speaker 1: Someone left the Cake out in the Rain. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: if you look at the lyrics to MacArthur Park, it
Speaker 1: is the dumbest song. I mean, it's dumber than Friday.
Speaker 1: People seriously read the lyrics. So yeah, we're not angry
Speaker 1: at at anyone involved with the project, right, But the
Speaker 1: point being that there have been a lot of people
Speaker 1: who have left comments that were directed personally at Rebecca Black.
Speaker 1: So we're not talking about people who are criticizing the
Speaker 1: song or criticizing the video or saying that, you know,
Speaker 1: the subject matter is ridiculous. We're talking about people who
Speaker 1: are directing personal attacks at Rebecca Black to the point
Speaker 1: of saying that you are stupid, or you are ugly,
Speaker 1: or you know, uh, you know, things like that, things
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter
Speaker 1: but are more of a personal nature that I think
Speaker 1: constitute cyber bullying. You know, it's it's it's harassing someone
Speaker 1: directly well as a matter of fact. Um she she
Speaker 1: came out in an interview not terribly long ago and
Speaker 1: uh said, and I quote at times, it feels like
Speaker 1: I'm being cyber bullied end quote, which um, I actually
Speaker 1: found that in an article in Time magazine online by
Speaker 1: hands Villa Rica and UM basically he uh was was
Speaker 1: saying that this isn't helping her case because she's drawing
Speaker 1: attention to the fact that she's being attacked and for
Speaker 1: some people that leave them to UM. But in that article,
Speaker 1: um Hans also mentioned that UM he had spoken with
Speaker 1: Karen Slovak in Ohio University professor UM and she basically
Speaker 1: said that cyber bullying is it doesn't really fit this
Speaker 1: what is going on with Rebecca Black necessarily, although it
Speaker 1: may she may change her mind. Now this was done
Speaker 1: uh several days ago, probably about a week and a
Speaker 1: half ago by the time we're recording this, so UM,
Speaker 1: you know what what she said was that cyber bulling
Speaker 1: has done over time, like it's consistently applied. It's not
Speaker 1: one personal attack. If somebody attacks you, that's not bullying,
Speaker 1: is what she's saying. Bullying is something that you know,
Speaker 1: the big kid comes up and asks you for your
Speaker 1: lunch money every day, So yeah, I got you. So
Speaker 1: it's it's repeated and it's yes, over it got you.
Speaker 1: But at this point you might argue that by now,
Speaker 1: now that it's been several weeks and it's still going
Speaker 1: on that it is it has graduated to actual cyber bullying. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, they they He spoke to several experts about
Speaker 1: it and said, um, you know, yeah, it may not
Speaker 1: necessarily be cyber bullying, but it is definitely a personal attack,
Speaker 1: and uh know it's it's painful to the person being attacked. Ye,
Speaker 1: and she has said as much. Chris and I have
Speaker 1: talked offline about how sometimes you know, we get negative reviews,
Speaker 1: and that's legitimate. You know, if people don't like what
Speaker 1: we do, then I I don't think there's any reason
Speaker 1: why they shouldn't say so, or why they cannot offer
Speaker 1: criticisms or anything like that. But occasionally we get uh
Speaker 1: personal attack comments, things that things that are not criticisms
Speaker 1: or helpful in any way. They're just you know, you're
Speaker 1: stupid or something like that. And that hurts, you know,
Speaker 1: even even as a grown adult. You know, there's there's
Speaker 1: an element, there's an emotional element there. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't even know this person as far as I know.
Speaker 1: This person could be uh like the person who directs
Speaker 1: an attack towards me, maybe someone who I would never
Speaker 1: care for or respect in person if I met them.
Speaker 1: But that's beside the point that you don't. It doesn't
Speaker 1: feel good to get that kind of stuff, and if
Speaker 1: you get enough of it, it could really affect yourself image. Now, fortunately,
Speaker 1: with the the case of Rebecca Black, it appears that
Speaker 1: she's got a pretty level head on her, which that's
Speaker 1: amazing because she's thirteen. When I was thirteen, I did
Speaker 1: not have a level head. Um, technically I don't right now.
Speaker 1: It's kind of rounded. But anyway, the uh no, it's
Speaker 1: when you're when you're thirteen. Sorry, I'm interacted. I was
Speaker 1: going to say that that's you know, that's a a
Speaker 1: troublesome time. You're going through a lot of changes in
Speaker 1: your life. Um, you know, starting to come into your
Speaker 1: own as an adult, and you know the the opinion
Speaker 1: of your peers is very important to you. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we have a lot of listeners who are in that
Speaker 1: age range twelve to uh to sixteen. So imagine having
Speaker 1: literally thousands of people saying that you are not worth anything.
Speaker 1: So there were I remember Rebecca Black did an interview
Speaker 1: with Good Morning America in which she said that there
Speaker 1: were people leaving comments saying things like you should starve yourself,
Speaker 1: you're too fat, or you should cut yourself or things
Speaker 1: like that. I mean people saying that you should harm yourself,
Speaker 1: that that's me. That's a threat, is really what that
Speaker 1: comes down to. It may not be a threat that
Speaker 1: anyone's going to act on, but you get enough of those,
Speaker 1: and that's really gonna affect yourself worth if you aren't careful.
Speaker 1: And like I said, apparently, uh, Rebecca Black has a
Speaker 1: very good um um. She she's she's comfortable with herself
Speaker 1: enough where that's not affecting her um. And she says
Speaker 1: that she no longer is paying attention to the negative reviews,
Speaker 1: which is helping a lot. And she's also taking steps.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's making some serious money off of this
Speaker 1: this music video, and that's of course fueling more people
Speaker 1: to even up the ante and talking about how ridiculous
Speaker 1: it is, how terrible it is. But the fact is
Speaker 1: is that at least on one one analyst I saw
Speaker 1: said that they had projected she would make around twenty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars off iTunes and another twenty five thousand off YouTube.
Speaker 1: I might have those mixed up, um, And that was
Speaker 1: just one analyst, so it may be that it could
Speaker 1: be more than that. Rebecca Black by the Way has
Speaker 1: also said that she's going to donate some of her
Speaker 1: proceedings to uh to relief efforts for the victims of
Speaker 1: the Japan earthquake and tsunami, and that she's also donating
Speaker 1: some of the money to her own school. I think
Speaker 1: that's remarkable, you know, it's an amazing thing. So considering
Speaker 1: the storm she weathered, I think that she's she's behaved admirably.
Speaker 1: Now to get back to the people who are directing
Speaker 1: these attacks. The internet is a weird thing. Uh. We
Speaker 1: see there are cases of bandwagons that go for or
Speaker 1: against certain causes, and sometimes it doesn't make much sense,
Speaker 1: but you'll see that that they'll become there'll be this
Speaker 1: sort of groundswelling of support for or against certain people. Uh.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's a great thing. So for example, in
Speaker 1: the case of of Katie Goldman, Katie Goldman was the
Speaker 1: young girl who loved Star Wars and she would but
Speaker 1: she was getting teased when she would go to school
Speaker 1: because she had a little Star our Wars backpack and
Speaker 1: Star Wars lunch box and things, and she was told
Speaker 1: by the boys that Star Wars is something that boys like,
Speaker 1: not what girls like. And she she felt she felt
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure from her peers and that that
Speaker 1: she was doing something wrong and she would actually she
Speaker 1: came to her mom and said that she wanted like
Speaker 1: a pink lunch box, something that didn't have Star Wars
Speaker 1: on it, because she didn't want to be teased anymore. Well,
Speaker 1: there was this huge ground swelling of support amongst the
Speaker 1: internet because first of all, a lot of us are geeks.
Speaker 1: I incured myself, and we think there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: being a geek. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of people through support at this
Speaker 1: young girl. She received tons of gifts from people, She
Speaker 1: received messages from folks who have been in Star Wars
Speaker 1: property projects. I mean, she she got a lot of support,
Speaker 1: and it was really heartwarming to see that, Like this
Speaker 1: is a This is a bunch of people saying, no,
Speaker 1: it's good, you should be who you are. That's okay,
Speaker 1: don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Then you see this
Speaker 1: Rebecca Black video come out, and you see kind of
Speaker 1: the opposite. You see all these people piling on saying
Speaker 1: you're terrible, why are you doing this? Your music is horrible,
Speaker 1: You're not worth anything, and it I can't help, but
Speaker 1: suspect that there's at least some overlap that some of
Speaker 1: the people who piled on Rebecca Black were the same
Speaker 1: ones who thought you go girl for Kitty Coldman. And
Speaker 1: the hypocrisy there is kind of amazing. Why should Kitty
Speaker 1: Goldman be proud of who she is but Rebecca Black
Speaker 1: be ashamed of who she is? Right, that's a mixed message.
Speaker 1: So that again is what spurred the whole cyber bullying story. Now,
Speaker 1: the actual stories about cyber bullying go well beyond Rebecca Black, Right,
Speaker 1: we have had a lot of different stories come out
Speaker 1: in the news about particularly about teenagers who have either
Speaker 1: committed suicide or attempted suicide. And and at least part
Speaker 1: of the reason for that that horrible decision, uh stemmed
Speaker 1: from cyber bullying online and uh and and that's just
Speaker 1: it's it's so unthinkably terrible to me that that people
Speaker 1: online can feel the freedom to criticize or bully other folks.
Speaker 1: I think part of it is that when you're online,
Speaker 1: if you're the attacker, you kind of feel a sense
Speaker 1: of distance, like the words you're saying don't really impact anything,
Speaker 1: because you're not really telling the person to their face.
Speaker 1: You're telling a website or you're telling a screen these things, right, Well,
Speaker 1: a lot of people wouldn't have the courage to go
Speaker 1: up to that person or yeah, or even if it's
Speaker 1: not courage, I mean, yes, I think that's a that's
Speaker 1: that's definitely a legitimate point. But there's some people who
Speaker 1: if you were to present them with a computer screen
Speaker 1: or the actual person and you know, whatever it was
Speaker 1: that triggered that that comment, if the person were there,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't necessarily even be a matter of courage. It's
Speaker 1: that that cultural pressure of saying, no, you don't say
Speaker 1: that to a person. That's just wrong. You wouldn't come
Speaker 1: up to a person and say, you know, you're you're
Speaker 1: ugly or you're fat or whatever. I mean some people would,
Speaker 1: but well most people would not. But then you show
Speaker 1: them on a screen. You've got that level of distance there,
Speaker 1: and suddenly that some of those those cultural barriers that
Speaker 1: would prevent you from doing such a thing in person
Speaker 1: are gone, and you don't feel restrained, so you start
Speaker 1: doing But the problem is that those words still hurt
Speaker 1: when you read them, right, Yeah, I was just thinking too.
Speaker 1: Another thing that you have sort of spurring this along too,
Speaker 1: is maybe you're you've decided somebody mentioned the video to
Speaker 1: You've gone to YouTube, and now all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you can read all the other people who are attacking
Speaker 1: her for the quality of the song and of the video,
Speaker 1: and you go, you know what, this does stink? And
Speaker 1: you know, and look at her, look at her, You're
Speaker 1: gonna weigh in, Yeah, exactly, or so it's a it's
Speaker 1: a mob mentality exactly online and you get you get
Speaker 1: that that thing. You know. You might think, oh, I've
Speaker 1: got this great, great snappy bar, but then I want
Speaker 1: to throw in there. And you're doing it as part
Speaker 1: of a mask conversation, right, You're not necessarily thinking I'm
Speaker 1: directing this at someone. I'm just I got this funny
Speaker 1: thing that's really really sharp and cruel and acidic, and
Speaker 1: it's gonna be awesome and people are gonna laugh, not
Speaker 1: thinking ultimately the target of this is a thirteen year
Speaker 1: old girl. So um, yeah, there's a lot of those
Speaker 1: elements there. So and this is kind of again like
Speaker 1: armchair psychology and armchair sociology, but there have been several
Speaker 1: studies about cyber bullying. There's actually a I found a
Speaker 1: document called cyber Bullying Research Summary cyber Bullying and Suicide,
Speaker 1: which was very disturbing to me. And in the highlights
Speaker 1: from the research section, the report says that they surveyed
Speaker 1: students who are are young people who had been um
Speaker 1: active online and tried to determine, you know, how many
Speaker 1: of them had admitted to either considering or even attempting suicide,
Speaker 1: how many of them had been victims of bullying, how
Speaker 1: many of them have been victims of cyber bullying specifically. Well,
Speaker 1: the highlights from the survey said that of all the
Speaker 1: respondents reported seriously thinking about attempting suicide, so that was
Speaker 1: disturbing on its own, and then that all forms of
Speaker 1: bullying were significantly associated with increases in suicidal ideation. So
Speaker 1: in other words, UH, the people who had seriously considered
Speaker 1: attempting suicide, more of them had been victims of bullying
Speaker 1: than otherwise, right, And that cyber bullying victims were almost
Speaker 1: twice as likely to have attempted suicide compared to youth
Speaker 1: who had not experienced cyber bullying. So the survey at
Speaker 1: least suggests that they and this was around two thousand
Speaker 1: randomly selected UH students from middle school age. So two
Speaker 1: thousand people, that's a decent size, right, That's that's a
Speaker 1: it's not a you know, you couldn't call it definitive
Speaker 1: or anything, but it's it's a good size for a study. Um,
Speaker 1: that suggests that there is a definite link to cyber
Speaker 1: bullying and your sense of self worth as well as
Speaker 1: your likelihood to consider suicide. So those words really do count.
Speaker 1: I mean, we we've all heard the little rhyme of
Speaker 1: sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can
Speaker 1: never hurt me. That's not really true. Those words can
Speaker 1: be really, really impactful. And because of that, and because
Speaker 1: of the attention on recent cases of tragic suicides and
Speaker 1: and cyber bullying in particular, there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: uh proposed legislation in both state and federal venues to
Speaker 1: ban cyber bullying or to punish cyber bullying. Probably probably
Speaker 1: the most notable case of cyber bullying that has um
Speaker 1: led to these efforts, these legislative efforts was Megan Meyer. Um.
Speaker 1: It was very very well known. Yeah, I but I
Speaker 1: believe we talked about her in the troll episode. I
Speaker 1: believe I'm thinking so too. Um and Jonathan wrote a
Speaker 1: post on it back on Mail eleven, two thousand nine
Speaker 1: called Internet trolls come under Fire. UM, And at that
Speaker 1: point we were talking about legislation. UM. But what had
Speaker 1: happened Megan Meyer was had a friend who lived just
Speaker 1: four houses away from her and UM, the other girl's mother,
Speaker 1: and she basically had decided that they were growing apart.
Speaker 1: Apparently the two girls were growing apart, and they were
Speaker 1: concerned that Megan might have been telling stories about her,
Speaker 1: so they decided to get back at Megan. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were trying to apparently trying to figure out what was
Speaker 1: being said, seeing if there was a way to win
Speaker 1: her trust through another method to uh, to see if
Speaker 1: they can figure out what she was saying about the
Speaker 1: other girl and and you know, possibly do a little
Speaker 1: punishment to UM. I think I think from what I've read,
Speaker 1: I think it sort of went awry because they had
Speaker 1: a family friend who has said that she was the
Speaker 1: one who came up with the idea to do this.
Speaker 1: They created a fake uh persona on my Space UM
Speaker 1: and befriended Megan Meyer. Yeah. It was It was a
Speaker 1: boy and it was showing interest in Megan Meyers. So
Speaker 1: you've already got that romantic, you know, and they picked
Speaker 1: they picked a picture that was a very good looking
Speaker 1: young man. Yeah. So you know, think about you are
Speaker 1: a teenager, you're you know, you might have some insecurities,
Speaker 1: and then you have this good looking person suddenly showing
Speaker 1: an interest in you. I mean that that makes you
Speaker 1: feel good, right, And they did start up a virtual
Speaker 1: friendship with this this fake persona and this real girl,
Speaker 1: and then they they began using the persona to make
Speaker 1: personal attacks on Megan. Yeah. They they first won her
Speaker 1: trust and then they started to use it to criticize her,
Speaker 1: to insult her, uh and to belittle her. Um. And
Speaker 1: so eventually, uh, she decided to hang herself because she
Speaker 1: was very upset about some of the things that that
Speaker 1: were said. And the mother, Laurie Drew Um, was charged
Speaker 1: on several counts UM. But the case really sort of
Speaker 1: came down to whether or not violating the terms of
Speaker 1: service of my Space UM was illegal action. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: they're they're at that point, were no cyber bullying laws
Speaker 1: I don't think anywhere on the books. UM. And that
Speaker 1: was the thing was they didn't really have anything to
Speaker 1: charge them with. There was you know, what do you do?
Speaker 1: It's like people wanted to punish them, and there wasn't
Speaker 1: anything to punish them with, right, So that that definitely
Speaker 1: gave rise to this, uh, this movement to try and
Speaker 1: find a way to deal with cyber bullying in a
Speaker 1: legal aspect of legal way and and there are a
Speaker 1: lot of states that have been trying at Louisiana proposed
Speaker 1: a cyber bullying bill that would make harassment on text
Speaker 1: messages or through sites like Facebook illegal. Arkansas as well.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of states that have actually proposed legislation.
Speaker 1: And here's where we're going to transfer into a different
Speaker 1: kind of conversation. I'm personally a little nervous about cyber
Speaker 1: bullying legislation. And here's why. There's a very delicate line
Speaker 1: you need to walk in this because on the one hand, yes,
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that that there is some
Speaker 1: way to uh to legally pursue UH punishment against people
Speaker 1: who are are legitimately causing injury and harm to other people,
Speaker 1: whether it's through cyber bullying or other means. Right, otherwise
Speaker 1: you don't have you know, society breaks down if you
Speaker 1: don't have that kind of stuff. But on the flip side,
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that you do so in
Speaker 1: a way that does not infringe upon people's First Amendment rights.
Speaker 1: And so where is that line, Where does the line
Speaker 1: go from this is cyber bullying. Uh, And on the
Speaker 1: other side, this is a criticism or this is a
Speaker 1: commentary that is legitimate in nature. And and that's gonna
Speaker 1: be a very difficult thing to do. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like saying what is art versus what is not art.
Speaker 1: It really becomes a subjective issue. And I think judges
Speaker 1: in the in the states where the this this, these
Speaker 1: proposed bills become actual legislation, are going to have a
Speaker 1: really challenging time determining in individual cases which things are
Speaker 1: you know, which things constitute actual cyber bullying versus expressing
Speaker 1: your opinion, you know, under the rights of free speech.
Speaker 1: Now we must keep in mind, of course, free speech
Speaker 1: is not unfettered right. You know, it's not truly free
Speaker 1: in that there are limitations. It was Oliver Wendell Holmes
Speaker 1: who said the right to swing my fist ends at
Speaker 1: the other man's nose. Uh. That being said, you know,
Speaker 1: you can't you cannot, uh, you cannot expect to have
Speaker 1: complete freedom of speech because there are certain things you
Speaker 1: cannot do. The famous example being don't yell fire in
Speaker 1: a crowded theater. UH. The idea thing that you create
Speaker 1: a panic and thus people can come to harm. So
Speaker 1: the argument is that those people's right to an expectation
Speaker 1: of safety overrides your right to yell something that's not true. UM.
Speaker 1: Yes and um uh. Representative head her name right here,
Speaker 1: Linda T. Sanchez has tried a couple of times to
Speaker 1: introduce federal legislation UH in the House of Representatives. UM.
Speaker 1: And in that that particular piece of legislation, which is
Speaker 1: aimed to amends Title eighteen of the United States Code,
Speaker 1: UM would define it makes a definition of cyber bullying
Speaker 1: UM and I'll quote any communication with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass,
Speaker 1: or cause substantial emotional distress to a person using electronic
Speaker 1: means to support severe, repeated and hostile behavior end quote
Speaker 1: UM and and in that case, it was introduced in
Speaker 1: the Congress in the United States UM on July th eight.
Speaker 1: It was referred to a House subcommittee and then referred
Speaker 1: to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, and
Speaker 1: it basically died. Uh. She tried again in the Congress UM.
Speaker 1: On April second, two thousand nine, it was referred to
Speaker 1: the House Committee on the Judiciary and again to the
Speaker 1: Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security on on September
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, there were hearings hell but again it's
Speaker 1: it is stalled and there's there's nothing going on now.
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot too about bullying in general, not
Speaker 1: just cyber bullying, but bullying in general UM at schools
Speaker 1: on TV. I know, I've seen lots and lots of
Speaker 1: public service announcement. There's there's the entire it Gets Better
Speaker 1: routine that UM for for for people, young people who
Speaker 1: realize that that they're gay and that they are receiving
Speaker 1: lots of bullying and pressure from other people because of
Speaker 1: their identity, or they feel like they can't be who
Speaker 1: they really are because there's this pressure around them, and
Speaker 1: that as a result, their their sense of self worth
Speaker 1: declines over time and they begin to consider attempting suicide
Speaker 1: or or or having other really negative impacts on their lives.
Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of the p s a s
Speaker 1: that come out and say, look, you know, I know
Speaker 1: that this part of your life is terrible and that
Speaker 1: it feels like it's never going to end, but it
Speaker 1: does get better. So yeah, I mean there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of attention on a national and even global level
Speaker 1: to this kind of of thing. And and I know
Speaker 1: there have been uh principles, school principles who've been pressured
Speaker 1: to do things. But part of the problem is that,
Speaker 1: you know, this is cyber bullying. A lot of it
Speaker 1: is not taking place in school. And even though for example,
Speaker 1: was limited to two people, two kids, the bullier and
Speaker 1: the bullied, Uh, if it's happening at eight o'clock at
Speaker 1: night after school, there's really nothing the principle can do
Speaker 1: about it. And because I mean legally, because we're talking
Speaker 1: about the internet, it wouldn't even necessarily be two people
Speaker 1: in the same school. Yeah, it can be, but it
Speaker 1: could also be two people who know each other but
Speaker 1: don't go to the same school. Well then what do
Speaker 1: you do. Do You contact the other school and say
Speaker 1: your student is harassing a student of another school, So
Speaker 1: therefore it's your job to discipline. And I mean, it
Speaker 1: gets really muddy, and that's that's part of the reason
Speaker 1: why you have this legislation being proposed, because there a
Speaker 1: lot of prosecutors feel like there's not a whole lot
Speaker 1: of avenues to take in these in these sort of situations.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are harassment laws that are out there,
Speaker 1: but some of them are difficult to apply using if
Speaker 1: the harassment is taking place online. It's just it's it's
Speaker 1: hard because the laws were not formed with that in mind,
Speaker 1: and therefore there's a debate on whether or not the
Speaker 1: laws apply in those cases. Um. And I did see
Speaker 1: one comment on a on a thread related to this
Speaker 1: that kind of made my eyes open a little bit
Speaker 1: because I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. But um,
Speaker 1: there it depends on what's said and how it's said.
Speaker 1: But you know, there are laws against libel and slander. Um.
Speaker 1: And depending on what what's said, how again, how it's done.
Speaker 1: You know, there is that case which you could say,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, there is illegal grounds under which someone
Speaker 1: can be punished, right with slender and libel, You've got that.
Speaker 1: That's again another restriction on free speech. Your speech is
Speaker 1: not entirely free if what you are doing is spreading
Speaker 1: misinformation and lies about someone deliberately, deliberately, right, you you
Speaker 1: knowingly are lying about someone's character or their behavior, and
Speaker 1: you're doing so as a means of hurting that person.
Speaker 1: That speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Um,
Speaker 1: hate speech, hate speech as well. Yeah, so you might
Speaker 1: also hear about fighting words. It's true you can be
Speaker 1: cited by the police for using fighting words. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand the difference between a
Speaker 1: salt and battery. But AsSalt is you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to kill you, and that you could be charged with
Speaker 1: a salt even though you never lay a finger on
Speaker 1: the other person, because you were intending to do harm
Speaker 1: to that you have to prove I guess that the intent,
Speaker 1: which is really trick. But like if you never swung
Speaker 1: a fist, then it's gonna be hard for them to
Speaker 1: prove that you really did intend that and you weren't
Speaker 1: just quote unquote joking. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you
Speaker 1: say that your friends, Yeah you do. But yeah, you
Speaker 1: had a bat at the time, Yeah you had you
Speaker 1: had your eyes were glowing red and there was really
Speaker 1: creepy music playing in the background. Um, And you know,
Speaker 1: I do have this concern about the legislation that's been
Speaker 1: proposed to to prevent cyber bullying or to punish it's
Speaker 1: not even to prevent cyber bullying. Really, it's to punish
Speaker 1: acts of cyber bulls, right, So this is this is
Speaker 1: a reactionary thing, not a proactive thing. It doesn't stop
Speaker 1: it from happening in the first place, exactly. So the
Speaker 1: damage has already been done. It's just that you're punishing
Speaker 1: the people who have committed the act. Now, to me,
Speaker 1: I think that's important. I can't say that that's not important.
Speaker 1: But to me, what's more important is finding ways to
Speaker 1: educate children and even adults really because a lot of
Speaker 1: people fall fall into this kind of trap. But to
Speaker 1: educate people about respect and compassion and these concepts that
Speaker 1: you know, you should extend these to other people because
Speaker 1: it's it's going to make everything better. People don't deserve
Speaker 1: to have this kind of stuff heaped on them for
Speaker 1: the smallest of of what you think of as as
Speaker 1: something like you know, like Rebecca Black's video something like
Speaker 1: that does not She doesn't deserve getting hate mail and
Speaker 1: and and veiled threats or unveiled threats directed at her
Speaker 1: for that. Just say, you know the song is is
Speaker 1: goofy and leave it at that. And uh. And I
Speaker 1: think that what's important is that we've we concentrate on
Speaker 1: that front end that we do try and instill in
Speaker 1: people a sense that it's important to respect and show
Speaker 1: compassion towards others, and that if we follow those those guidelines,
Speaker 1: the back end of punishment becomes less important. It still
Speaker 1: needs to be there because there's always going to be
Speaker 1: people who will always fall to that side. But I
Speaker 1: think we need to really concentrate on ways to encourage
Speaker 1: the that sort of sense of community and responsibility early on,
Speaker 1: and that that's what we're funding needs to go because
Speaker 1: otherwise what you're talking about is, yeah, we've got all
Speaker 1: this punishment in place, but that's not going to stop
Speaker 1: the victims. Like, the victims are still going to be hurt.
Speaker 1: And I would rather see us work on ways to
Speaker 1: prevent victimization in the first place, right because I'm crazy
Speaker 1: like that. Well, you know that that's that's admirable. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I think that a
Speaker 1: lot of people are going to want to see something,
Speaker 1: you know, what happens when it happens. Anyway, I agree,
Speaker 1: and I think that does need to be there. I
Speaker 1: just right, I think I don't think it's ever going
Speaker 1: to be a deterrent. I think it's only going to
Speaker 1: be a punishment, but I think it's still necessary. I
Speaker 1: just think that we can not focus on that at
Speaker 1: and and then ignore the front end. Right. If we
Speaker 1: we just focus on the punishment, then you haven't solved
Speaker 1: the problem. You've just created a way of punishing the
Speaker 1: people who commit the problem. And same way I think
Speaker 1: of pretty much the criminal system in general, is that
Speaker 1: if you don't address the underlying reason for why the
Speaker 1: crime is happening, you're just going to have a cycle
Speaker 1: of crime. And yeah, you have a way of punishing it,
Speaker 1: but you don't have a way of preventing it. Right,
Speaker 1: And they'll also have to if they ever want to
Speaker 1: get something like that passed on a national level. I
Speaker 1: think they'll probably need to be very careful how the
Speaker 1: bill is written too, because it free speech advocates are
Speaker 1: going to say, sure, that's fine, but it's so broad
Speaker 1: now you can punish all these other things well, and
Speaker 1: which is a legitimate concern. And what would happen with
Speaker 1: that is, even if the law were passed, you would
Speaker 1: essentially it wouldn't take long before you saw a case
Speaker 1: come before the Supreme Court, and then the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: would have to rule on whether or not it was truly,
Speaker 1: you know, violating the first Amendment of the Constant Ship.
Speaker 1: And you know that's a very long and drawn out process.
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, you have a law that might
Speaker 1: be hurting people almost as much as the actual crime
Speaker 1: of cyber bullying is hurting people. It's it's it's a
Speaker 1: complicated issue. And so offer constructive criticism, right, constructive criticism.
Speaker 1: Try to be a little compassionate about people. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that you can't say that something is um poorly
Speaker 1: written or or poorly done. There's no reason for you
Speaker 1: to feel fettered that you you know, you cannot say
Speaker 1: that this is a bad work or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Just you know, try to keep the personal attacks under control.
Speaker 1: I would like to have heard her without auto tune,
Speaker 1: just to see what her voice is like. Yeah, on
Speaker 1: Good Morning America. She's saying a couple of bars at
Speaker 1: the Star Spangled banner, and she had you know, she
Speaker 1: could carry a tune like I wouldn't say that she had.
Speaker 1: She herself said, I don't think I have the best voice,
Speaker 1: but I don't think I have the worst voice either,
Speaker 1: And I would agree with that. My voice is certainly
Speaker 1: much worse. Um, of course. I I also and there
Speaker 1: is a video of me on YouTube singing, so you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that. Well I already they already know
Speaker 1: about it because it's the Evil League of Evil Things.
Speaker 1: Part of the part of the audition process was you
Speaker 1: had to sing. Uh. And I apologize to the you know,
Speaker 1: two dozen of you or whoever you went over and
Speaker 1: saw that video. I should have should have warned you beforehand.
Speaker 1: That was my fault. Well, they're not around to complain now,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna wrap this up. Well, I'm gonna wrap
Speaker 1: this up by just stating one other thing that I
Speaker 1: find really uh infuriating about about the American psyche, and
Speaker 1: I am also guilty of this. I include myself with this,
Speaker 1: which is that we have in America this this uh,
Speaker 1: the American myth or the American uh like the underlying
Speaker 1: foundation of what we think it is to be American
Speaker 1: is that if you work really hard, or you or
Speaker 1: you really tried to do something, then uh, you should succeed.
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, we have this feeling
Speaker 1: that that people who exceeed, we have this need to
Speaker 1: tear them down. So we've got folks who will succeed
Speaker 1: and and at the first, at one point, you've got
Speaker 1: the drive to succeed because culturally, that's what it is
Speaker 1: to be American. You want to you want to try,
Speaker 1: and whatever your goal is, you want to make sure
Speaker 1: you get it because this is America and whatever you
Speaker 1: want is possible. But then you get there and then
Speaker 1: people start tearing you down. And that's also American, and
Speaker 1: that's just insane. It's not just America that does that either.
Speaker 1: I know that. But you know when you see that
Speaker 1: kind of that, that double edged sword, like succeed succeeds, succeed,
Speaker 1: you succeeded, You're a jerk. That's just come on, people,
Speaker 1: give me a break. I work hard. Don't tear me
Speaker 1: down for working hard. Now. I know we're way over now,
Speaker 1: but my my personal thing like that is your your
Speaker 1: favorite restaurant on the corner and then and everybody loves him,
Speaker 1: and you're enjoying this because hey, they're they're finally getting customers.
Speaker 1: Look at this, and then well then you can't get
Speaker 1: a table. And then they open one acros us town.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, that's cool, they're expanding, and then they
Speaker 1: get three and then all of a sudden It's like
Speaker 1: they're on every corner in every place in America. Like man,
Speaker 1: that big corporation, right, Yes, they stink or or want
Speaker 1: them to support little restaurants or as you know bands. Yes,
Speaker 1: the band is cool when no one knows about it,
Speaker 1: and then when it becomes a success, they sold out
Speaker 1: that that's what I think of his from from my
Speaker 1: age group r EM and you two both got that criticism. Well.
Speaker 1: To close out, I just gotta say, Chris, I'm glad
Speaker 1: that it's Friday Friday. I'm going to have fun, fun, fun, fun,
Speaker 1: and uh, if you guys want to have some fun,
Speaker 1: you can interact with us. We promise we will make
Speaker 1: it fun. You can let us know on Twitter or
Speaker 1: Facebook or handle There is tech Stuff hs W, or
Speaker 1: you can shoot us an email that addresses tech stuff
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. Chris and I will
Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon. For more on this
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is the House to works
Speaker 1: dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on
Speaker 1: the podcast icon in the upper right corner of our homepage.
Speaker 1: The House Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it
Speaker 1: today on iTunes. Brought to you by the reinvented two
Speaker 1: thousand twelve Camray. It's ready, Are you