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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With

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Speaker 1: tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and

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Speaker 1: I am an editor at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Sitting across from me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: I want my two dollars. I haven't thought about that

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Speaker 1: in a long time. Actually, I accorded from that movie

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Speaker 1: not too long ago. But you know what, it's a

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Speaker 1: good one. Not sense then, not sense then. So today

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Speaker 1: we're actually gonna tackle a pretty serious subject, but it's

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Speaker 1: it's one that has had a lot of attention recently

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Speaker 1: for various reasons. Um, we're gonna talk about cyber bullying,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of relates to a previous episode we

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Speaker 1: recorded a couple of years ago, the about internet trolls, right,

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Speaker 1: controlls work, cyber bullying being a sort of a specific

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Speaker 1: type of internet troll. Yeah, yeah, And um, I think

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Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting we're gonna have to people will

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Speaker 1: ask about this. Cyber bullying in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: is not especially different in character from Frankly bullying in person.

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Speaker 1: It's just using the tools of the internet. You know,

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Speaker 1: now that we have the ability to publish instantly and frequently. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, people use those tools to pick on others. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and we've been seeing a lot of this

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Speaker 1: in the news, uh, from like I said, from various sources,

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Speaker 1: over various um activities, you know, things that have happened recently.

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Speaker 1: But the one that kind of spurred this, at least

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Speaker 1: from my perspective, was the whole Rebecca Black phenomenon train wreck,

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Speaker 1: however you want to call it. Right, So, for the

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Speaker 1: few of you out there who may not have heard

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Speaker 1: of who of Rebecca Black? I suspect most of you

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Speaker 1: probably have. Rebecca Black is a thirteen year old girl

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Speaker 1: who received an amazing gift her mom um paid for

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Speaker 1: her to have a music video done. And it's a

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Speaker 1: The song is called Friday and let's just get this

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Speaker 1: all of the way. It is not a good song.

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Speaker 1: It is very let's let's the lyrics are banal, would

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Speaker 1: you yes? The tune itself is pretty catchy, you know

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's one of those that's that's been engineered

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Speaker 1: to get stuck in your head and stay there until

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Speaker 1: you start to go crazy. But Rebecca Black did not

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Speaker 1: write the song but not but she did. She did

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Speaker 1: perform it, and the song features her voice being auto

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Speaker 1: tuned to the point where it sounds almost robotic and

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Speaker 1: um and like I said, the lyrics are really really boring,

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Speaker 1: but not really that's not really here nor there. She

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Speaker 1: uploaded the video to YouTube and then, um, I think

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Speaker 1: it was on like February tenth, two thousand eleven that

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Speaker 1: she uploaded it to YouTube, and it took about a week.

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Speaker 1: But then people started to to share this video and

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Speaker 1: it went totally viral, and before you knew it, there

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Speaker 1: were thousands and thousands of views of this video. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had read an article in preparation on Mashable by

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Speaker 1: Todd Wasserman who was basically charting it. And yes, you

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Speaker 1: know February tenth, this when it was initially published. Uh

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Speaker 1: you remember Michael J. Nelson, don't you? Yes? Yes, of

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Speaker 1: Mystery Science Theater three thousand and tracks fame. Um. He

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Speaker 1: tweeted about it on his Twitter account to he's got

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Speaker 1: According to Wasserman, more than nineteen thousand followers, probably had more.

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually look this morning right before we decided

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Speaker 1: to do this podcast, but um basically said, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a catchy song, but it also answers the

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Speaker 1: question what's the worst video ever made? It's a quote

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Speaker 1: from that and and of course when someone who is

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Speaker 1: got that level of followers, you know, you're it's going

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Speaker 1: to attract attention. And that's around the time that it

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Speaker 1: started picking up, and that was in March. So really,

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Speaker 1: I should also point out that I think Total Eclipse

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Speaker 1: of the Heart still gives it a run for the

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Speaker 1: money as total worst video ever made. But anyway, I'm

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Speaker 1: not fond of the song to begin with, let alone

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Speaker 1: the video turn around Bright Eyes the uh. At the

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Speaker 1: time of the recording of this podcast, which is in

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Speaker 1: late March right now, according to YouTube, the video has

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Speaker 1: had forty seven million, seventy six thousand, three hundred four views.

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Speaker 1: Oh there's another one. Yeah, And and we should also

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Speaker 1: add that YouTube does not update these in real time,

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Speaker 1: that the numbers update to a schedule that makes sense

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Speaker 1: to YouTube basically in batches. Yeah, so so it could

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Speaker 1: be that that number is, of course not entirely accurate.

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Speaker 1: Even as I'm saying this right now into the microphone.

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Speaker 1: Of course, will not be accurate by the time you

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Speaker 1: hear this podcast, so million views, that's a lot. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's an incredible And the song is actually on iTunes

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Speaker 1: as well. You can purchase the song on iTunes, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have done that, and you could

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Speaker 1: argue that maybe it's in a sense of irony, they're

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Speaker 1: they're ordering it because they think it's so bad. It's

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Speaker 1: it's funny, and therefore they're going to get the song.

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Speaker 1: Some people may legitimately like the song, although they may

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Speaker 1: also say that it's a terrible song. Personally, Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I think the tune is kind of catchy. I think

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Speaker 1: the the the lyrics again are so ridiculously plain, Like

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Speaker 1: it's just it's explaining such a mundane experience that you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't help but think, wow, this is kind of

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Speaker 1: this is really ridiculous, right in a nutshell. It's Friday,

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Speaker 1: and she's happy about that because it means it's the weekend.

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Speaker 1: It's the weekend. And I think it's when you hear

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Speaker 1: that Sunday comes afterward. That was the point where I

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Speaker 1: was like, really, I mean, just the going down and

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Speaker 1: have to get a bowl, have to eat your serial

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Speaker 1: that was That was a little rough too. But here's

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Speaker 1: here's where we're leading with this. This video has prompted

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to leave extremely negative comments on

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Speaker 1: the YouTube video. Now I would not I don't argue

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Speaker 1: that leaving a negative comment for a bad video and

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Speaker 1: saying like, wow, this was a really dumb song or

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Speaker 1: this was a really dumb video. That's one thing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to point out it may sound since we're

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Speaker 1: both kind of negative on the song. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to give anyone the wrong impression and think that we

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Speaker 1: are are anti Rebecca Black or the songwriter, or or

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Speaker 1: anyone involved with it. I mean, it's, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: everyone involved is making an attempt to entertain people, and

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Speaker 1: you could say that it was, you know, an unsuccessful attempt,

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Speaker 1: or at least it wasn't successful in the way they

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Speaker 1: had intended. Right, Even even star musicians can write yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not And I'm certainly you know you have the

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Speaker 1: old the old saying well, let's see you try it. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I haven't ever written a song, so I

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Speaker 1: can't really talk. And you know what, there's some bad

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Speaker 1: songs out there that have become incredibly popular and became standards.

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Speaker 1: Someone left the Cake out in the Rain. I'm just saying,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the lyrics to MacArthur Park, it

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Speaker 1: is the dumbest song. I mean, it's dumber than Friday.

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Speaker 1: People seriously read the lyrics. So yeah, we're not angry

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Speaker 1: at at anyone involved with the project, right, But the

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Speaker 1: point being that there have been a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who have left comments that were directed personally at Rebecca Black.

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Speaker 1: So we're not talking about people who are criticizing the

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Speaker 1: song or criticizing the video or saying that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the subject matter is ridiculous. We're talking about people who

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Speaker 1: are directing personal attacks at Rebecca Black to the point

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Speaker 1: of saying that you are stupid, or you are ugly,

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Speaker 1: or you know, uh, you know, things like that, things

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Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the actual subject matter

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Speaker 1: but are more of a personal nature that I think

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Speaker 1: constitute cyber bullying. You know, it's it's it's harassing someone

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Speaker 1: directly well as a matter of fact. Um she she

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Speaker 1: came out in an interview not terribly long ago and

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Speaker 1: uh said, and I quote at times, it feels like

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Speaker 1: I'm being cyber bullied end quote, which um, I actually

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Speaker 1: found that in an article in Time magazine online by

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Speaker 1: hands Villa Rica and UM basically he uh was was

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Speaker 1: saying that this isn't helping her case because she's drawing

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Speaker 1: attention to the fact that she's being attacked and for

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Speaker 1: some people that leave them to UM. But in that article,

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Speaker 1: um Hans also mentioned that UM he had spoken with

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Speaker 1: Karen Slovak in Ohio University professor UM and she basically

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Speaker 1: said that cyber bullying is it doesn't really fit this

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Speaker 1: what is going on with Rebecca Black necessarily, although it

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Speaker 1: may she may change her mind. Now this was done

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Speaker 1: uh several days ago, probably about a week and a

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Speaker 1: half ago by the time we're recording this, so UM,

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Speaker 1: you know what what she said was that cyber bulling

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Speaker 1: has done over time, like it's consistently applied. It's not

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Speaker 1: one personal attack. If somebody attacks you, that's not bullying,

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Speaker 1: is what she's saying. Bullying is something that you know,

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Speaker 1: the big kid comes up and asks you for your

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Speaker 1: lunch money every day, So yeah, I got you. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's repeated and it's yes, over it got you.

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Speaker 1: But at this point you might argue that by now,

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Speaker 1: now that it's been several weeks and it's still going

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Speaker 1: on that it is it has graduated to actual cyber bullying. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, they they He spoke to several experts about

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Speaker 1: it and said, um, you know, yeah, it may not

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Speaker 1: necessarily be cyber bullying, but it is definitely a personal attack,

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Speaker 1: and uh know it's it's painful to the person being attacked. Ye,

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Speaker 1: and she has said as much. Chris and I have

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Speaker 1: talked offline about how sometimes you know, we get negative reviews,

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Speaker 1: and that's legitimate. You know, if people don't like what

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Speaker 1: we do, then I I don't think there's any reason

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Speaker 1: why they shouldn't say so, or why they cannot offer

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Speaker 1: criticisms or anything like that. But occasionally we get uh

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Speaker 1: personal attack comments, things that things that are not criticisms

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Speaker 1: or helpful in any way. They're just you know, you're

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Speaker 1: stupid or something like that. And that hurts, you know,

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Speaker 1: even even as a grown adult. You know, there's there's

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Speaker 1: an element, there's an emotional element there. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know this person as far as I know.

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Speaker 1: This person could be uh like the person who directs

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Speaker 1: an attack towards me, maybe someone who I would never

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Speaker 1: care for or respect in person if I met them.

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Speaker 1: But that's beside the point that you don't. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel good to get that kind of stuff, and if

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Speaker 1: you get enough of it, it could really affect yourself image. Now, fortunately,

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Speaker 1: with the the case of Rebecca Black, it appears that

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Speaker 1: she's got a pretty level head on her, which that's

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Speaker 1: amazing because she's thirteen. When I was thirteen, I did

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Speaker 1: not have a level head. Um, technically I don't right now.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of rounded. But anyway, the uh no, it's

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Speaker 1: when you're when you're thirteen. Sorry, I'm interacted. I was

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Speaker 1: going to say that that's you know, that's a a

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Speaker 1: troublesome time. You're going through a lot of changes in

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Speaker 1: your life. Um, you know, starting to come into your

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Speaker 1: own as an adult, and you know the the opinion

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Speaker 1: of your peers is very important to you. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of listeners who are in that

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Speaker 1: age range twelve to uh to sixteen. So imagine having

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Speaker 1: literally thousands of people saying that you are not worth anything.

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Speaker 1: So there were I remember Rebecca Black did an interview

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Speaker 1: with Good Morning America in which she said that there

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Speaker 1: were people leaving comments saying things like you should starve yourself,

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Speaker 1: you're too fat, or you should cut yourself or things

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean people saying that you should harm yourself,

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Speaker 1: that that's me. That's a threat, is really what that

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Speaker 1: comes down to. It may not be a threat that

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Speaker 1: anyone's going to act on, but you get enough of those,

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Speaker 1: and that's really gonna affect yourself worth if you aren't careful.

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Speaker 1: And like I said, apparently, uh, Rebecca Black has a

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Speaker 1: very good um um. She she's she's comfortable with herself

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Speaker 1: enough where that's not affecting her um. And she says

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Speaker 1: that she no longer is paying attention to the negative reviews,

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Speaker 1: which is helping a lot. And she's also taking steps.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's making some serious money off of this

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Speaker 1: this music video, and that's of course fueling more people

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Speaker 1: to even up the ante and talking about how ridiculous

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Speaker 1: it is, how terrible it is. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: is that at least on one one analyst I saw

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Speaker 1: said that they had projected she would make around twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars off iTunes and another twenty five thousand off YouTube.

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Speaker 1: I might have those mixed up, um, And that was

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Speaker 1: just one analyst, so it may be that it could

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Speaker 1: be more than that. Rebecca Black by the Way has

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Speaker 1: also said that she's going to donate some of her

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Speaker 1: proceedings to uh to relief efforts for the victims of

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Speaker 1: the Japan earthquake and tsunami, and that she's also donating

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Speaker 1: some of the money to her own school. I think

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Speaker 1: that's remarkable, you know, it's an amazing thing. So considering

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Speaker 1: the storm she weathered, I think that she's she's behaved admirably.

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Speaker 1: Now to get back to the people who are directing

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Speaker 1: these attacks. The internet is a weird thing. Uh. We

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Speaker 1: see there are cases of bandwagons that go for or

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Speaker 1: against certain causes, and sometimes it doesn't make much sense,

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Speaker 1: but you'll see that that they'll become there'll be this

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Speaker 1: sort of groundswelling of support for or against certain people. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it's a great thing. So for example, in

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Speaker 1: the case of of Katie Goldman, Katie Goldman was the

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Speaker 1: young girl who loved Star Wars and she would but

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Speaker 1: she was getting teased when she would go to school

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Speaker 1: because she had a little Star our Wars backpack and

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Speaker 1: Star Wars lunch box and things, and she was told

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Speaker 1: by the boys that Star Wars is something that boys like,

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Speaker 1: not what girls like. And she she felt she felt

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Speaker 1: a lot of pressure from her peers and that that

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Speaker 1: she was doing something wrong and she would actually she

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Speaker 1: came to her mom and said that she wanted like

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Speaker 1: a pink lunch box, something that didn't have Star Wars

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Speaker 1: on it, because she didn't want to be teased anymore. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was this huge ground swelling of support amongst the

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Speaker 1: internet because first of all, a lot of us are geeks.

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Speaker 1: I incured myself, and we think there's nothing wrong with

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Speaker 1: being a geek. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of people through support at this

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Speaker 1: young girl. She received tons of gifts from people, She

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Speaker 1: received messages from folks who have been in Star Wars

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Speaker 1: property projects. I mean, she she got a lot of support,

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Speaker 1: and it was really heartwarming to see that, Like this

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Speaker 1: is a This is a bunch of people saying, no,

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Speaker 1: it's good, you should be who you are. That's okay,

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Speaker 1: don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Then you see this

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Black video come out, and you see kind of

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Speaker 1: the opposite. You see all these people piling on saying

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Speaker 1: you're terrible, why are you doing this? Your music is horrible,

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Speaker 1: You're not worth anything, and it I can't help, but

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Speaker 1: suspect that there's at least some overlap that some of

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Speaker 1: the people who piled on Rebecca Black were the same

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Speaker 1: ones who thought you go girl for Kitty Coldman. And

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Speaker 1: the hypocrisy there is kind of amazing. Why should Kitty

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Speaker 1: Goldman be proud of who she is but Rebecca Black

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Speaker 1: be ashamed of who she is? Right, that's a mixed message.

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Speaker 1: So that again is what spurred the whole cyber bullying story. Now,

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Speaker 1: the actual stories about cyber bullying go well beyond Rebecca Black, Right,

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Speaker 1: we have had a lot of different stories come out

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Speaker 1: in the news about particularly about teenagers who have either

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Speaker 1: committed suicide or attempted suicide. And and at least part

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Speaker 1: of the reason for that that horrible decision, uh stemmed

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Speaker 1: from cyber bullying online and uh and and that's just

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Speaker 1: it's it's so unthinkably terrible to me that that people

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Speaker 1: online can feel the freedom to criticize or bully other folks.

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Speaker 1: I think part of it is that when you're online,

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Speaker 1: if you're the attacker, you kind of feel a sense

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Speaker 1: of distance, like the words you're saying don't really impact anything,

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Speaker 1: because you're not really telling the person to their face.

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Speaker 1: You're telling a website or you're telling a screen these things, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people wouldn't have the courage to go

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Speaker 1: up to that person or yeah, or even if it's

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Speaker 1: not courage, I mean, yes, I think that's a that's

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Speaker 1: that's definitely a legitimate point. But there's some people who

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Speaker 1: if you were to present them with a computer screen

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Speaker 1: or the actual person and you know, whatever it was

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Speaker 1: that triggered that that comment, if the person were there,

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't necessarily even be a matter of courage. It's

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Speaker 1: that that cultural pressure of saying, no, you don't say

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Speaker 1: that to a person. That's just wrong. You wouldn't come

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Speaker 1: up to a person and say, you know, you're you're

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Speaker 1: ugly or you're fat or whatever. I mean some people would,

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Speaker 1: but well most people would not. But then you show

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Speaker 1: them on a screen. You've got that level of distance there,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly that some of those those cultural barriers that

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Speaker 1: would prevent you from doing such a thing in person

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Speaker 1: are gone, and you don't feel restrained, so you start

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Speaker 1: doing But the problem is that those words still hurt

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Speaker 1: when you read them, right, Yeah, I was just thinking too.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that you have sort of spurring this along too,

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Speaker 1: is maybe you're you've decided somebody mentioned the video to

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Speaker 1: You've gone to YouTube, and now all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: you can read all the other people who are attacking

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Speaker 1: her for the quality of the song and of the video,

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Speaker 1: and you go, you know what, this does stink? And

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Speaker 1: you know, and look at her, look at her, You're

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Speaker 1: gonna weigh in, Yeah, exactly, or so it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a mob mentality exactly online and you get you get

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Speaker 1: that that thing. You know. You might think, oh, I've

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Speaker 1: got this great, great snappy bar, but then I want

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Speaker 1: to throw in there. And you're doing it as part

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Speaker 1: of a mask conversation, right, You're not necessarily thinking I'm

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Speaker 1: directing this at someone. I'm just I got this funny

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Speaker 1: thing that's really really sharp and cruel and acidic, and

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be awesome and people are gonna laugh, not

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Speaker 1: thinking ultimately the target of this is a thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old girl. So um, yeah, there's a lot of those

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Speaker 1: elements there. So and this is kind of again like

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Speaker 1: armchair psychology and armchair sociology, but there have been several

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Speaker 1: studies about cyber bullying. There's actually a I found a

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Speaker 1: document called cyber Bullying Research Summary cyber Bullying and Suicide,

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Speaker 1: which was very disturbing to me. And in the highlights

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Speaker 1: from the research section, the report says that they surveyed

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Speaker 1: students who are are young people who had been um

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Speaker 1: active online and tried to determine, you know, how many

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Speaker 1: of them had admitted to either considering or even attempting suicide,

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Speaker 1: how many of them had been victims of bullying, how

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Speaker 1: many of them have been victims of cyber bullying specifically. Well,

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Speaker 1: the highlights from the survey said that of all the

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Speaker 1: respondents reported seriously thinking about attempting suicide, so that was

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Speaker 1: disturbing on its own, and then that all forms of

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Speaker 1: bullying were significantly associated with increases in suicidal ideation. So

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Speaker 1: in other words, UH, the people who had seriously considered

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Speaker 1: attempting suicide, more of them had been victims of bullying

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Speaker 1: than otherwise, right, And that cyber bullying victims were almost

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Speaker 1: twice as likely to have attempted suicide compared to youth

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Speaker 1: who had not experienced cyber bullying. So the survey at

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Speaker 1: least suggests that they and this was around two thousand

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Speaker 1: randomly selected UH students from middle school age. So two

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Speaker 1: thousand people, that's a decent size, right, That's that's a

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Speaker 1: it's not a you know, you couldn't call it definitive

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Speaker 1: or anything, but it's it's a good size for a study. Um,

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Speaker 1: that suggests that there is a definite link to cyber

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Speaker 1: bullying and your sense of self worth as well as

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Speaker 1: your likelihood to consider suicide. So those words really do count.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we've all heard the little rhyme of

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Speaker 1: sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can

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Speaker 1: never hurt me. That's not really true. Those words can

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Speaker 1: be really, really impactful. And because of that, and because

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Speaker 1: of the attention on recent cases of tragic suicides and

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Speaker 1: and cyber bullying in particular, there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: uh proposed legislation in both state and federal venues to

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Speaker 1: ban cyber bullying or to punish cyber bullying. Probably probably

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Speaker 1: the most notable case of cyber bullying that has um

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Speaker 1: led to these efforts, these legislative efforts was Megan Meyer. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was very very well known. Yeah, I but I

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Speaker 1: believe we talked about her in the troll episode. I

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Speaker 1: believe I'm thinking so too. Um and Jonathan wrote a

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Speaker 1: post on it back on Mail eleven, two thousand nine

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Speaker 1: called Internet trolls come under Fire. UM, And at that

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Speaker 1: point we were talking about legislation. UM. But what had

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Speaker 1: happened Megan Meyer was had a friend who lived just

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Speaker 1: four houses away from her and UM, the other girl's mother,

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Speaker 1: and she basically had decided that they were growing apart.

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Speaker 1: Apparently the two girls were growing apart, and they were

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Speaker 1: concerned that Megan might have been telling stories about her,

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Speaker 1: so they decided to get back at Megan. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were trying to apparently trying to figure out what was

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Speaker 1: being said, seeing if there was a way to win

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Speaker 1: her trust through another method to uh, to see if

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Speaker 1: they can figure out what she was saying about the

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Speaker 1: other girl and and you know, possibly do a little

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Speaker 1: punishment to UM. I think I think from what I've read,

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Speaker 1: I think it sort of went awry because they had

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Speaker 1: a family friend who has said that she was the

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Speaker 1: one who came up with the idea to do this.

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Speaker 1: They created a fake uh persona on my Space UM

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Speaker 1: and befriended Megan Meyer. Yeah. It was It was a

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Speaker 1: boy and it was showing interest in Megan Meyers. So

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Speaker 1: you've already got that romantic, you know, and they picked

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Speaker 1: they picked a picture that was a very good looking

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Speaker 1: young man. Yeah. So you know, think about you are

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Speaker 1: a teenager, you're you know, you might have some insecurities,

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Speaker 1: and then you have this good looking person suddenly showing

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Speaker 1: an interest in you. I mean that that makes you

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Speaker 1: feel good, right, And they did start up a virtual

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Speaker 1: friendship with this this fake persona and this real girl,

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Speaker 1: and then they they began using the persona to make

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Speaker 1: personal attacks on Megan. Yeah. They they first won her

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Speaker 1: trust and then they started to use it to criticize her,

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Speaker 1: to insult her, uh and to belittle her. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so eventually, uh, she decided to hang herself because she

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Speaker 1: was very upset about some of the things that that

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Speaker 1: were said. And the mother, Laurie Drew Um, was charged

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Speaker 1: on several counts UM. But the case really sort of

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Speaker 1: came down to whether or not violating the terms of

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Speaker 1: service of my Space UM was illegal action. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: they're they're at that point, were no cyber bullying laws

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Speaker 1: I don't think anywhere on the books. UM. And that

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Speaker 1: was the thing was they didn't really have anything to

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Speaker 1: charge them with. There was you know, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: It's like people wanted to punish them, and there wasn't

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Speaker 1: anything to punish them with, right, So that that definitely

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Speaker 1: gave rise to this, uh, this movement to try and

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Speaker 1: find a way to deal with cyber bullying in a

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Speaker 1: legal aspect of legal way and and there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of states that have been trying at Louisiana proposed

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Speaker 1: a cyber bullying bill that would make harassment on text

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Speaker 1: messages or through sites like Facebook illegal. Arkansas as well.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of states that have actually proposed legislation.

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Speaker 1: And here's where we're going to transfer into a different

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Speaker 1: kind of conversation. I'm personally a little nervous about cyber

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Speaker 1: bullying legislation. And here's why. There's a very delicate line

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Speaker 1: you need to walk in this because on the one hand, yes,

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Speaker 1: you want to make sure that that there is some

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Speaker 1: way to uh to legally pursue UH punishment against people

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Speaker 1: who are are legitimately causing injury and harm to other people,

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Speaker 1: whether it's through cyber bullying or other means. Right, otherwise

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Speaker 1: you don't have you know, society breaks down if you

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Speaker 1: don't have that kind of stuff. But on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: you want to make sure that you do so in

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Speaker 1: a way that does not infringe upon people's First Amendment rights.

428
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: And so where is that line, Where does the line

429
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: go from this is cyber bullying. Uh, And on the

430
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: other side, this is a criticism or this is a

431
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: commentary that is legitimate in nature. And and that's gonna

432
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: be a very difficult thing to do. It's kind of

433
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: like saying what is art versus what is not art.

434
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: It really becomes a subjective issue. And I think judges

435
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: in the in the states where the this this, these

436
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: proposed bills become actual legislation, are going to have a

437
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: really challenging time determining in individual cases which things are

438
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: you know, which things constitute actual cyber bullying versus expressing

439
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: your opinion, you know, under the rights of free speech.

440
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Now we must keep in mind, of course, free speech

441
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: is not unfettered right. You know, it's not truly free

442
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: in that there are limitations. It was Oliver Wendell Holmes

443
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: who said the right to swing my fist ends at

444
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: the other man's nose. Uh. That being said, you know,

445
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: you can't you cannot, uh, you cannot expect to have

446
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: complete freedom of speech because there are certain things you

447
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: cannot do. The famous example being don't yell fire in

448
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: a crowded theater. UH. The idea thing that you create

449
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: a panic and thus people can come to harm. So

450
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: the argument is that those people's right to an expectation

451
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: of safety overrides your right to yell something that's not true. UM.

452
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: Yes and um uh. Representative head her name right here,

453
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: Linda T. Sanchez has tried a couple of times to

454
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: introduce federal legislation UH in the House of Representatives. UM.

455
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: And in that that particular piece of legislation, which is

456
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: aimed to amends Title eighteen of the United States Code,

457
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: UM would define it makes a definition of cyber bullying

458
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: UM and I'll quote any communication with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass,

459
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: or cause substantial emotional distress to a person using electronic

460
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: means to support severe, repeated and hostile behavior end quote

461
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: UM and and in that case, it was introduced in

462
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: the Congress in the United States UM on July th eight.

463
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: It was referred to a House subcommittee and then referred

464
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, and

465
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: it basically died. Uh. She tried again in the Congress UM.

466
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: On April second, two thousand nine, it was referred to

467
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: the House Committee on the Judiciary and again to the

468
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security on on September

469
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, there were hearings hell but again it's

470
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: it is stalled and there's there's nothing going on now.

471
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot too about bullying in general, not

472
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: just cyber bullying, but bullying in general UM at schools

473
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: on TV. I know, I've seen lots and lots of

474
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: public service announcement. There's there's the entire it Gets Better

475
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: routine that UM for for for people, young people who

476
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 1: realize that that they're gay and that they are receiving

477
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: lots of bullying and pressure from other people because of

478
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: their identity, or they feel like they can't be who

479
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: they really are because there's this pressure around them, and

480
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: that as a result, their their sense of self worth

481
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: declines over time and they begin to consider attempting suicide

482
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: or or or having other really negative impacts on their lives.

483
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of the p s a s

484
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: that come out and say, look, you know, I know

485
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: that this part of your life is terrible and that

486
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: it feels like it's never going to end, but it

487
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: does get better. So yeah, I mean there's been a

488
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: lot of attention on a national and even global level

489
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: to this kind of of thing. And and I know

490
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: there have been uh principles, school principles who've been pressured

491
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: to do things. But part of the problem is that,

492
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, this is cyber bullying. A lot of it

493
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: is not taking place in school. And even though for example,

494
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: was limited to two people, two kids, the bullier and

495
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: the bullied, Uh, if it's happening at eight o'clock at

496
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: night after school, there's really nothing the principle can do

497
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: about it. And because I mean legally, because we're talking

498
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: about the internet, it wouldn't even necessarily be two people

499
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: in the same school. Yeah, it can be, but it

500
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: could also be two people who know each other but

501
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: don't go to the same school. Well then what do

502
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: you do. Do You contact the other school and say

503
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: your student is harassing a student of another school, So

504
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: therefore it's your job to discipline. And I mean, it

505
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: gets really muddy, and that's that's part of the reason

506
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: why you have this legislation being proposed, because there a

507
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: lot of prosecutors feel like there's not a whole lot

508
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: of avenues to take in these in these sort of situations.

509
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean, there are harassment laws that are out there,

510
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: but some of them are difficult to apply using if

511
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: the harassment is taking place online. It's just it's it's

512
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: hard because the laws were not formed with that in mind,

513
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: and therefore there's a debate on whether or not the

514
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: laws apply in those cases. Um. And I did see

515
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: one comment on a on a thread related to this

516
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: that kind of made my eyes open a little bit

517
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: because I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. But um,

518
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: there it depends on what's said and how it's said.

519
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: But you know, there are laws against libel and slander. Um.

520
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: And depending on what what's said, how again, how it's done.

521
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: You know, there is that case which you could say,

522
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, yes, there is illegal grounds under which someone

523
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: can be punished, right with slender and libel, You've got that.

524
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: That's again another restriction on free speech. Your speech is

525
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: not entirely free if what you are doing is spreading

526
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: misinformation and lies about someone deliberately, deliberately, right, you you

527
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: knowingly are lying about someone's character or their behavior, and

528
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: you're doing so as a means of hurting that person.

529
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: That speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Um,

530
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: hate speech, hate speech as well. Yeah, so you might

531
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: also hear about fighting words. It's true you can be

532
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: cited by the police for using fighting words. Well, you know,

533
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand the difference between a

534
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: salt and battery. But AsSalt is you know, I'm going

535
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: to kill you, and that you could be charged with

536
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: a salt even though you never lay a finger on

537
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: the other person, because you were intending to do harm

538
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: to that you have to prove I guess that the intent,

539
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: which is really trick. But like if you never swung

540
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: a fist, then it's gonna be hard for them to

541
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: prove that you really did intend that and you weren't

542
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: just quote unquote joking. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you

543
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: say that your friends, Yeah you do. But yeah, you

544
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 1: had a bat at the time, Yeah you had you

545
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: had your eyes were glowing red and there was really

546
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: creepy music playing in the background. Um, And you know,

547
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: I do have this concern about the legislation that's been

548
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: proposed to to prevent cyber bullying or to punish it's

549
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: not even to prevent cyber bullying. Really, it's to punish

550
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: acts of cyber bulls, right, So this is this is

551
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: a reactionary thing, not a proactive thing. It doesn't stop

552
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: it from happening in the first place, exactly. So the

553
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: damage has already been done. It's just that you're punishing

554
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: the people who have committed the act. Now, to me,

555
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: I think that's important. I can't say that that's not important.

556
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: But to me, what's more important is finding ways to

557
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: educate children and even adults really because a lot of

558
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: people fall fall into this kind of trap. But to

559
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: educate people about respect and compassion and these concepts that

560
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, you should extend these to other people because

561
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: it's it's going to make everything better. People don't deserve

562
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: to have this kind of stuff heaped on them for

563
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: the smallest of of what you think of as as

564
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: something like you know, like Rebecca Black's video something like

565
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: that does not She doesn't deserve getting hate mail and

566
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: and and veiled threats or unveiled threats directed at her

567
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: for that. Just say, you know the song is is

568
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: goofy and leave it at that. And uh. And I

569
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: think that what's important is that we've we concentrate on

570
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: that front end that we do try and instill in

571
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: people a sense that it's important to respect and show

572
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: compassion towards others, and that if we follow those those guidelines,

573
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: the back end of punishment becomes less important. It still

574
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: needs to be there because there's always going to be

575
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: people who will always fall to that side. But I

576
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: think we need to really concentrate on ways to encourage

577
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: the that sort of sense of community and responsibility early on,

578
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: and that that's what we're funding needs to go because

579
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: otherwise what you're talking about is, yeah, we've got all

580
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: this punishment in place, but that's not going to stop

581
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: the victims. Like, the victims are still going to be hurt.

582
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: And I would rather see us work on ways to

583
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: prevent victimization in the first place, right because I'm crazy

584
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: like that. Well, you know that that's that's admirable. But

585
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I think that a

586
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: lot of people are going to want to see something,

587
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: you know, what happens when it happens. Anyway, I agree,

588
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: and I think that does need to be there. I

589
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: just right, I think I don't think it's ever going

590
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: to be a deterrent. I think it's only going to

591
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: be a punishment, but I think it's still necessary. I

592
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: just think that we can not focus on that at

593
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: and and then ignore the front end. Right. If we

594
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: we just focus on the punishment, then you haven't solved

595
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: the problem. You've just created a way of punishing the

596
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: people who commit the problem. And same way I think

597
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: of pretty much the criminal system in general, is that

598
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: if you don't address the underlying reason for why the

599
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: crime is happening, you're just going to have a cycle

600
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: of crime. And yeah, you have a way of punishing it,

601
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: but you don't have a way of preventing it. Right,

602
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: And they'll also have to if they ever want to

603
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: get something like that passed on a national level. I

604
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: think they'll probably need to be very careful how the

605
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: bill is written too, because it free speech advocates are

606
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: going to say, sure, that's fine, but it's so broad

607
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: now you can punish all these other things well, and

608
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: which is a legitimate concern. And what would happen with

609
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: that is, even if the law were passed, you would

610
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: essentially it wouldn't take long before you saw a case

611
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 1: come before the Supreme Court, and then the Supreme Court

612
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: would have to rule on whether or not it was truly,

613
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: you know, violating the first Amendment of the Constant Ship.

614
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: And you know that's a very long and drawn out process.

615
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, you have a law that might

616
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: be hurting people almost as much as the actual crime

617
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: of cyber bullying is hurting people. It's it's it's a

618
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: complicated issue. And so offer constructive criticism, right, constructive criticism.

619
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: Try to be a little compassionate about people. That doesn't

620
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: mean that you can't say that something is um poorly

621
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: written or or poorly done. There's no reason for you

622
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: to feel fettered that you you know, you cannot say

623
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: that this is a bad work or anything like that.

624
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: Just you know, try to keep the personal attacks under control.

625
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: I would like to have heard her without auto tune,

626
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: just to see what her voice is like. Yeah, on

627
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: Good Morning America. She's saying a couple of bars at

628
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: the Star Spangled banner, and she had you know, she

629
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: could carry a tune like I wouldn't say that she had.

630
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: She herself said, I don't think I have the best voice,

631
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: but I don't think I have the worst voice either,

632
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: And I would agree with that. My voice is certainly

633
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 1: much worse. Um, of course. I I also and there

634
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: is a video of me on YouTube singing, so you

635
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that. Well I already they already know

636
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: about it because it's the Evil League of Evil Things.

637
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: Part of the part of the audition process was you

638
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: had to sing. Uh. And I apologize to the you know,

639
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: two dozen of you or whoever you went over and

640
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: saw that video. I should have should have warned you beforehand.

641
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: That was my fault. Well, they're not around to complain now,

642
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna wrap this up. Well, I'm gonna wrap

643
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: this up by just stating one other thing that I

644
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: find really uh infuriating about about the American psyche, and

645
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: I am also guilty of this. I include myself with this,

646
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: which is that we have in America this this uh,

647
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: the American myth or the American uh like the underlying

648
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: foundation of what we think it is to be American

649
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: is that if you work really hard, or you or

650
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: you really tried to do something, then uh, you should succeed.

651
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, we have this feeling

652
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: that that people who exceeed, we have this need to

653
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: tear them down. So we've got folks who will succeed

654
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: and and at the first, at one point, you've got

655
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: the drive to succeed because culturally, that's what it is

656
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: to be American. You want to you want to try,

657
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: and whatever your goal is, you want to make sure

658
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: you get it because this is America and whatever you

659
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: want is possible. But then you get there and then

660
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: people start tearing you down. And that's also American, and

661
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: that's just insane. It's not just America that does that either.

662
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: I know that. But you know when you see that

663
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: kind of that, that double edged sword, like succeed succeeds, succeed,

664
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: you succeeded, You're a jerk. That's just come on, people,

665
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: give me a break. I work hard. Don't tear me

666
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: down for working hard. Now. I know we're way over now,

667
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: but my my personal thing like that is your your

668
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: favorite restaurant on the corner and then and everybody loves him,

669
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: and you're enjoying this because hey, they're they're finally getting customers.

670
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: Look at this, and then well then you can't get

671
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: a table. And then they open one acros us town.

672
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, that's cool, they're expanding, and then they

673
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: get three and then all of a sudden It's like

674
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: they're on every corner in every place in America. Like man,

675
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: that big corporation, right, Yes, they stink or or want

676
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: them to support little restaurants or as you know bands. Yes,

677
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: the band is cool when no one knows about it,

678
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: and then when it becomes a success, they sold out

679
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: that that's what I think of his from from my

680
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: age group r EM and you two both got that criticism. Well.

681
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: To close out, I just gotta say, Chris, I'm glad

682
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: that it's Friday Friday. I'm going to have fun, fun, fun, fun,

683
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: and uh, if you guys want to have some fun,

684
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: you can interact with us. We promise we will make

685
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: it fun. You can let us know on Twitter or

686
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: Facebook or handle There is tech Stuff hs W, or

687
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: you can shoot us an email that addresses tech stuff

688
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. Chris and I will

689
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon. For more on this

690
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is the House to works

691
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on

692
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: the podcast icon in the upper right corner of our homepage.

693
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: The House Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it

694
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: today on iTunes. Brought to you by the reinvented two

695
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: thousand twelve Camray. It's ready, Are you