WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: How to Save the West with Spencer Klavan 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.920 Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:11.720 There was a. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.320 Piece on the Spectator website that came across my feet 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.119 a few days ago. It was called modern Life Doesn't 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:24.320 make Us Happy? By Tenneth Carrey. The subhead was when 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:29.000 everything is designed to be pleasurable, nothing feels good. Carrie's 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:33.000 thesis is that dopamine isn't a happiness chemical. It's a 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.520 go out and survive chemical. But now we don't fight 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.040 for our survival every day, so dopamine becomes this drug 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:42.880 we chase. I looked her up and she's written some 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.120 cool stuff on friendship and what kids are actually thinking, 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.920 really up my alley, But I have to disagree with 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.280 her a little bit about modern life not making us happy. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:57.000 She writes, quote, when your ancestors woke each morning feeling hungry, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.960 dopamine levels would have risen to motivate them to seek 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.400 out a bird's nest from which to rade eggs, or 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.360 bee high from which to gather honey in addition to 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.080 the berries and nuts they foraged. But dopamine's effect is 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.720 designed to be short lived once they've eaten and gotten 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.840 the reward of the extra spurt of dopamine along with 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.480 the release of feel good opioids, those levels quickly dropped 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.839 and even dipped below baseline. After all, unless dopamine fell 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.839 back down again, where would they have found the necessary 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.880 motivation to seek out the next meal? And then she adds, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.360 and I find this part so interesting quote. Apart from 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.480 some slight changes due to genetic selection over the years, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.759 you basically have the same brain as your ancient family members, 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.520 powered by the same reward system. Do we chase that 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.600 dopamine hit more than our ancestors did? Sure, but I'd 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.000 argue that because our brains are largely the same, they 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.680 would have chased the next dopamine hit the exact same 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.280 way as us, except those far harder and didn't come 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.680 in the form of Instagram likes. I also don't think that, Yes, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.440 it might have been the dopamine that would spur them 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.040 to maybe go further and finding food, But you know 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:11.000 what motivation would they have found to seek out the 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.360 next meal? Hunger? Hunger would have been that motivation. She 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.120 writes that people now expect to be happy all the time. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.680 I'm not so sure that's true. I think we probably 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.040 have a lot more wallowing than our ancestors who lived 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.720 constantly under threat. But the things that ultimately made us happy, 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.840 having a good meal, warm bed, all of that really 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.040 has stayed the same. Like have you ever worked a 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.480 long day or been out all day and then you 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.240 get home and you take a shower and you get 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.440 into your nice, clean, warm bed and that feeling is 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.800 so amazing. I mean, that's our ancestors having that same 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.519 feeling getting into whatever comfortable position they had. I think 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.679 about stuff like this, where, you know, we kind of 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.640 look at modern life as like, oh this is you know, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.400 we chase this dopamine hit and it's so bad. But 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.079 I really don't think it's that different than what our 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.960 ancestors did. I once read a story about a therapist 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.000 who work in a refugee camp. These people in the camp, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.320 she wrote, had lost everything and she was there to 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.519 counsel them, but the eighteen year old girls still wanted 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.960 to discuss how the boy she liked didn't like her 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.320 back and instead preferred her cousin and that made her 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.720 feel bad, and that's what she wanted to talk to 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.160 this therapist about. People aren't that different than they were, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.560 And I hate the idea of treating our phones because 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.040 we're so addicted to them, as if there's something other 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.519 than a tool that we can use and put away. Look, 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.360 I know people are addicted to their phones. I'm sometimes 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.240 addicted to my phone. But we can acknowledge it and 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.520 curtail our use. It's not heroin. I think about that 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.720 all the time, that people compare it to like serious 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.080 drugs that have like physical withdrawals, and people die sometimes 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.320 from withdrawal. That's not what your phone is. Your phone 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.600 can be put away. You can we don't have to 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.080 keep scrolling for the dopamine hit. We can be like 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.640 our ancestors and take that dopamine break. Coming up next 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:05.520 and interview with Spencer. Join us after the break. Welcome 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.240 back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.240 today is Spencer Claven, author of the book How to 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.000 Save the West, Ancient Wisdom for five Modern Crisises, and 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.680 the host of the Young Heretics podcast. Hi Spencer, how 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.599 are you, Carol? 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.720 I'm doing great. It's so nice to see you, and 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:24.640 thanks for having me on. 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:26.920 Thank you so much for being on. You have a 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.200 lot of big words in there. Heretics, Crisises I you know, 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:31.359 I did the best I could. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:34.520 Just beautiful. It rolls off the tongue. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.960 Thank you. So with your appearance on my show today, 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.760 I'm actually concluding the Claven Moore trifecta. I've interviewed your dad, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.560 Andrew Claven, and your sister Faith more about their books. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.839 Although maybe I shouldn't say this is the end. What's 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.640 your mom up to? Maybe we can schedule a chat. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.920 Well, we're like Pokemon, you know, got to catch them all. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.719 Thanks for thanks for collecting the full set. Unfortunately, however, 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.839 I have disappoint you because my mother, who is by 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.360 far the best person in my family, I mean, not 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.440 even a competition miles and miles beyond us all, is 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:09.800 also the only one that never does any media. She's 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:10.599 extremely private. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.560 Boo. Yeah, sorry, all right, you know I might try 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.320 anyway like she does it as a favor to us, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:19.120 part of the chase. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.840 Oh really good. Yeah, yeah, that's the appeal. No, she 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.200 does as a favorite to us so that we won't 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.200 look bad by comparison, because if she did have podcast 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.280 or a book, then nobody would pay any attention to 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:28.880 the rest of us. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.520 That's great. So you're also doing a new sub Stack 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.239 with your dad. What is it called? Tell my listeners 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.240 about it? How can they sign up? And they should 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:38.680 sign up? 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.800 Yeah, oh, thank you. I'm really excited about this. It's 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.440 called the New Jerusalem, which is a reference to the 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.880 Book of Revelation when the New Jerusalem comes out of 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.240 heaven and down to Earth, which should give you a 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.680 sense of the project. It's about what it means to 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.040 live in faith here and now, not in some imaginary 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.560 before time, but in the world of the Internet and 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.640 technology and all the many crises that we are currently 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.520 basing down. We're doing it in the format of a 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:11.320 father son conversation. So Andrew Claven, my dad, no relation, 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:17.159 and I have been really just lucky and blessed in 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.920 our relationship that we get to discuss these big ideas. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.680 And we used to go over long hikes together in 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.479 Los Angeles when he lived there and just kind of 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.040 ruminate on this stuff forever, and we wanted to invite 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:30.760 people into that. So the Subtec is the way of 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.760 doing that. It's the New Jerusalem dot substack dot com. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.880 And what it'll be. The way it'll work is we'll 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.440 post an opening essay written by both of us and 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.440 then every day. From then on, we'll just be writing 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.080 back and forth to each other, kind of like letting 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.960 you in on a series of emails between us. There 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.799 will also be a list of our most cherished works 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.000 of art and books that we kind of build gradually 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.960 on Fridays, which is for paid subscribers. If you want 0:06:58.000 --> 0:06:59.400 to support us, you can send up for that, but 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.320 the rest of it's free. And yeah, you can sign 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.279 up at the New Jerusalem dot substack dot com and yeah, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.120 become moret of the journey with us. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:11.600 I'm going to sign up. I just I'm not sure 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.360 I'm smart enough for all this, but I'll do my 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:16.200 very best. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.280 Wait, no, okay, first of all, that's I don't know 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.120 if I think this is in the book. I can't 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:23.440 remember if I put this in the book or not. 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.280 But I often have conversations that begin with somebody saying 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.120 I'm not that smart or I'm not smart enough for 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.440 X or y, And those are always the best conversations 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.880 because it turns out people are actually much smarter and 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.560 they are more philosophical they than they think. And I 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.520 know that's actually true of you. So yes, come along, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:40.880 come join. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.880 But you guys, you know you just your whole family 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.360 just comes off as you know, just a little smarter 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:52.040 than the average people. So again, I'm going to sign 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.000 up and I'm going to follow it, and you know, 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.400 I'll do my best to keep up with the Clevens. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.320 I feel like keeping up with the Kardashians is maybe 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:00.000 a little easier. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.200 I mean, you will not find, unfortunately, any of our 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:04.680 like botox tips or. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.080 So. I have your book. I love your book, And 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.000 one question that I ask all of my guests is 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.800 what do you think is our largest cultural or societal 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.640 problem in America? And is it solvable? In this case? 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.080 I think that question takes us, you know, into the 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.240 direction of your book. You write about five essential crisis 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.640 and the crisis of reality, the body, the crisis of meaning, 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.720 of religion, of the regime. Which do you think is 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.800 the most pressing for us as a country right now? 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.360 Well, I'm going to say the crisis of religion, which 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.960 is really the heart of the book, and actually in 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:48.600 particular right now, I think the most pressing social problem 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.199 we're facing is anti Semitism. I was thinking about this 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.880 this morning. We have seen, ever since October seventh, a 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:02.200 profoundly dark resurgence of some of the leiest stereotypes, but 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:07.000 also trends about in relationship to Jewish people. And the 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.600 reason that I bring this up is not only because 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.440 of my love for the Jews and my Jewish heritage, 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.760 but because I think that anti Semitism represents now as 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:21.679 it always has, a profound sickness in the spiritual heart 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.520 of man. It is the oldest hatred, and the Jews 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.680 are the most hated people throughout history, the reason for 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.800 which is at least in part that as part of 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.839 their role as the Chosen people, they really do. Jewish 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.520 people really do stand in for us in relationship to God. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.000 And I believe, and I argue in the book, that 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.480 the human heart can hardly bear to see itself in 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.040 a true light in relation to God and to contemplate 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.600 the nature of its inadequacies, and we do everything we 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.480 can to look away and ignore our calling as divinely 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.800 created beings. And I suspect that hatred of Jewish people, 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.160 anti Semitism, these things that come up again and again, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.480 no matter how hard we try to erase them or 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.959 resist them, this is an indicator that we are once 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.440 again facing up to our own brokenness. And since we 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.400 can't look at that we offload it all onto Jewish 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.160 people and to the Jewish religion. And so you ask 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.240 me if this is solvable In the deepest and most 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.520 profound sense, I don't think it's ever possible to eradicate 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.480 this problem. I think it's baked into the tragic nature 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:40.720 of the world. But I believe, even still, even now, 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:46.240 passionately that Americans perhaps uniquely are equipped to reckon with 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:51.600 and to expunge this sickness from our hearts because of 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.880 the nature of our creed and our founding documents that 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.440 we actually do believe in this country. And there's still 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:04.040 a deep into at war now with the worst elements 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.520 of us and the worst angels of our nature, demons, 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.560 I guess of our nature. There is still a deep 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.600 instinct that we are in doubt by our creator, with 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.640 inalienable rights, that we're created equal. And yeah, I think that. 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.360 You know, I'm not a big predictor. I hate making predictions, 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.520 which means that I'm neither a pessimist nor an optimist 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.640 because I don't know what's going to happen. But I 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.480 am a big advocate of hope. That's one of the 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.200 three Christian virtues. Faith hope and love, and hope means 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.080 where are you placing your efforts? Where you pouring your heart. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.840 I'm pouring it into that crisis of religion, hoping against 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.959 hope and trying desperately to kind of call people back 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.720 to these core truths of our creativeness in the image 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.600 of God and the results, the political result, which is 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.080 fundamental human equality and the truest and best sense. 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.199 Well, yeah, I mean I think that I also have 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:00.440 basically the biggest hope for America and Americans, especially where 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.240 the issue of anti Semitism is concerned. I have more 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 faith than the American people and in our system than 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.960 I do in you know, any other country basically. But 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.679 have you been surprised about the kind of spike and 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.240 anti semitism since October seventh? I feel like even so, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:23.560 I am an optimist, I think, and I haven't been 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.280 shocked because I think it's been heading in this direction 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.560 for a number of years, and people have sort of 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.840 looked away, including you know, my fellow Jews. I think 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.440 they just didn't want to see it. But have you 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.160 been like shocked at the kind of events that have 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:39.040 happened since then? 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:41.280 I've said for a while that we need a word. 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.480 Maybe there's some great German word that means something that 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:49.200 is shocking but not surprising. So whenever, right, I'm sure 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.680 there is, you know, right, like whenever the sort of 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.920 woke crowd comes up with something absurd, Like I don't 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.960 know if you saw that video that's floating around the internet. 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.040 It was like a Stacy Abrams choral performance about our 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.760 rights depend on it, Like it was like this incredibly. 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.559 No, I'm going to have to go find. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.800 That, Harold. Okay, wait, maybe I'll send it to you 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.320 afterwards and you can link to it or something. But 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.640 it's so cringe and over the top that you're like, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.439 I can't believe they're doing this, But also I actually 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.760 totally can. And that's that feeling that I feel like 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:28.960 we have all the time now, And that's how I 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:35.240 feel about this hideous resurgence of just the most kind 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:40.240 of atavistic and obvious and crude forms of anti Semitism. 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.560 I am shocked and appalled by it, but I'm not 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.319 actually all that surprised, in part for the reasons that 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.000 you suggested. I think we've been toying with this stuff 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.000 for a long time. We've been playing with fire poisoning 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.920 our race relations, which always ultimately comes back to these 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.840 sort of religious wars, and especially animists towards Jewish people. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.240 So I think this was kind of in the works. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:10.760 I also think that because our ruling classes think that 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.640 they're immune from this sort of thing, they imagined themselves 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.480 to be virtuous and pure, and never they thought that 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.160 they were the grand white knights that were warring against 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:26.040 the evil, racist, bad orange man people or the nasty deplorables. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.640 And that is the surest fire recipe for a return 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.400 to the worst and most obvious forms of hatred that 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.760 humanity is capable of, because if you think that you're 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.000 kind of immune from that, then you're ultimately really vulnerable 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.520 and just ignorant I think about the nature of human hatred. 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:48.920 So no, I'm not surprised, but I am appalled. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.760 You say you're not an optimist, but your book is 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.800 How to Save the West. I mean, isn't that sort 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.600 of an optimistic vision for how we make things better, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.520 how we make the country and society. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.920 Better in a certain sense. And everyone thinks that I'm 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.280 an optimist for sure. That's the word that GE's applied 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.200 to me most often, and It's why I started thinking 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.840 about well am I actually And the reason that I'm 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.880 not an optimist is because I don't think anything is 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.320 written in the stars. And I understand optimism and pessimism 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.800 both to be convictions about what you're certain is going 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.880 to happen in the future, and for that reason, they 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:30.280 both lead to certain errors. So optimism tends toward complacency, 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.720 I think, in its most extreme forms, if you think 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:34.960 everything's going to go okay, you're not going to. 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:35.960 Do anything about it. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.280 It's hard exactly. Pessimism also tends toward in action, but 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.720 in the form of despair, which is an actual sin. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.080 Conservatives are so guilty of this, I think so much 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.640 of the time we love to know that everything is 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.840 going to go wrong. It makes us feel very special 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:51.360 and makes. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:52.840 Us feel you can't do anything about it. So what 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:53.760 are you going to do? Right? 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.360 Yeah, complain complain online, I think, is the answer to 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.920 that question. And so that's why I say that I'm 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.720 neither of those things. Is because when I say that 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.280 I don't know what's going to happen, I genuinely mean 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.920 I don't know, and I have faith I trust in 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.760 God that ultimately the final answer to the whole of 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.200 this history is going to be good. But in the meantime, 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.200 my question is where are we in what is possible? 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.520 And in what is possible? I'm looking for the best 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.640 that can be thought and said, which is why my 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.880 book is titled How to Save the West, and why 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.120 it's written the way that it is, because it's not 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.560 actually about how the West is absolutely going to be 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.320 fine and everything's gonna be hunky dory. It's about how, 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.600 even in bad times, the West has always endured, and 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.000 people who carry it forward are people like you and 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.600 meet people who start conversations by saying I'm not that smart. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.000 People that feel doubt and fear and all the normal 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.880 things that we feel. Nevertheless wake up in the morning 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.320 and put our socks on and feed our kids. I 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.480 just attributed children to you that I don't know. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:58.800 I do have told you. Yeah, you're old, you're good. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.600 For kids, right, I'm sorry of them. 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:07.800 Yeah, my my youngest son went to school with your 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:08.840 oldest nephew. 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.080 That's right. Yeah, okay, so that's and that's how faith. Yeah, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.560 I'm sorry. Yeah, I just was like, no. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:16.920 I need to be sorry. I feel like I was 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:18.600 going to say that I'm going to pressure you later 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.760 on in this conversation that you clearly need to have 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.800 children because we need little Spencer Cleveman's running around. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.879 Well, we certainly can get to that, but okay, so anyway, 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:28.879 but my point was just that you know, the stuff 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:33.320 that we do kind of in the morning and throughout 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.359 our day in our neighborhoods like that is the stuff 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.600 of saving the West. And it doesn't depend on making 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.600 a grand pronouncement about everything that's going to go right 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.080 or wrong like that. These things, this stuff has happened, 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.159 that this tradition has been maintained through the sacking of 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.480 Rome and the rise of the Soviet regime, and you know, 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.920 in in gulags as well as in ivory towers. And 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.040 I think that's something we have to remember so that 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.480 we don't get disappointed in the reality of the world, 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.360 which is often very messy and very difficult. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.280 We're going to take a quick break and be right 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:12.320 back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So when you say 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.480 how we can save the West, what are some other 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.000 than you know, the getting up every day and taking 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.200 care of your kids and all of that. What are 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.680 some of the ideas that you think that people should 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.840 embrace in order to save our civilization. 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.680 Yeah, well, the book big question. I'm sorry, no, no, 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.240 I mean looking, I put myself on the hook for 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.280 this when I wrote a book called How You Really 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.359 Did Rest? Right? Yeah, there's there's no escaping it. And 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.520 one of the things that do say at the outside 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.359 of the book is that you're not going to open 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.520 these covers and find a political program, which is by 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:54.160 design because if our hope for salvation rests in a 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.640 politician or law, we are in trouble. I mean, there's 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.760 just no certainty to be had there. The kind of 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.680 TLDR version of my book is log off and go 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.960 to church. And that's not because I think that it's 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.480 not because I think the technology is evil. I actually 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:18.399 think that it's it. It doesn't matter whether it's evil 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.320 or not. It is now kind of embedded in our lives, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.639 and you and I are currently having a conversation and 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.160 an interaction that we would never have if the Internet 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.840 didn't exist. So these are tools. You know, it doesn't 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.359 pay to talk about them as if they we have 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.399 no control over them or no choice in how we 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.720 use them. But a major theme of my book is 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.000 rooting ourselves back in the here and now. I think 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.679 this kind of starts to emerge, well, it starts in 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.159 the first chapter, which is the reality crisis is about 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.600 kind of our disconnection from the obvious truths around us 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.280 that we're able to experience and perceive, and our alienation 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:03.840 from just the felt sense of life that actually our connections, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.440 our desires, our aspirations, our memories, our loves. These things 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.159 aren't just brain farts or accidents of our biochemistry. They 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.760 are the stuff of what we are. And so rerooting 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.920 ourselves in that first and foremost and then the body 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.960 crisis really does I think kind of drive this home 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.240 when I start talking about the trans extremism that we've seen, 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.240 but also kind of it's more advanced, like cutting edged stages, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.320 which are not just about sex and gender, but they're 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:38.400 about transhumanism and people that hope to escape from humanity altogether. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:40.200 This is going to be a major theme by the 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.600 way of the New Jerusalem. You could replace well not 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:44.480 you couldn't replace go to church with go to the gym, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.000 but you could add to go to church to go 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.000 to the gym, or join a softball team or you know, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.480 become part of some sort of physical activity that gets 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.639 you in contact with other human beings. There are a 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.040 lot of people that ask me when they listen to 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.359 my podcast, like how do I cultivate relationships? How do 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.040 I make friends? That sort of thing, And one. 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:08.120 Of my favorite questions, you're going to answer, yeah. 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.080 Yeah, okay, I actually have an answer, and it comes 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.359 from the Western canon, so it's even better. It's not 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.760 my answer, it's Cistero's answer and an Aristotle's answer, and 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.600 that is become the kind of person you would want 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:25.520 to be friends with, especially become that person by seeking virtue. 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:29.920 There are four they're called cardinal or you know, we 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.520 might think of them as kind of the core virtues, 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.160 the excellences of the soul, the way to be really 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.920 good at being human, And they don't depend on being 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:44.040