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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: There was a.

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Speaker 1: Piece on the Spectator website that came across my feet

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Speaker 1: a few days ago. It was called modern Life Doesn't

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Speaker 1: make Us Happy? By Tenneth Carrey. The subhead was when

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Speaker 1: everything is designed to be pleasurable, nothing feels good. Carrie's

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Speaker 1: thesis is that dopamine isn't a happiness chemical. It's a

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Speaker 1: go out and survive chemical. But now we don't fight

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Speaker 1: for our survival every day, so dopamine becomes this drug

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Speaker 1: we chase. I looked her up and she's written some

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Speaker 1: cool stuff on friendship and what kids are actually thinking,

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Speaker 1: really up my alley, But I have to disagree with

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Speaker 1: her a little bit about modern life not making us happy.

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Speaker 1: She writes, quote, when your ancestors woke each morning feeling hungry,

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Speaker 1: dopamine levels would have risen to motivate them to seek

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Speaker 1: out a bird's nest from which to rade eggs, or

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Speaker 1: bee high from which to gather honey in addition to

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Speaker 1: the berries and nuts they foraged. But dopamine's effect is

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Speaker 1: designed to be short lived once they've eaten and gotten

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Speaker 1: the reward of the extra spurt of dopamine along with

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Speaker 1: the release of feel good opioids, those levels quickly dropped

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Speaker 1: and even dipped below baseline. After all, unless dopamine fell

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Speaker 1: back down again, where would they have found the necessary

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Speaker 1: motivation to seek out the next meal? And then she adds,

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Speaker 1: and I find this part so interesting quote. Apart from

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Speaker 1: some slight changes due to genetic selection over the years,

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Speaker 1: you basically have the same brain as your ancient family members,

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Speaker 1: powered by the same reward system. Do we chase that

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Speaker 1: dopamine hit more than our ancestors did? Sure, but I'd

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Speaker 1: argue that because our brains are largely the same, they

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Speaker 1: would have chased the next dopamine hit the exact same

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Speaker 1: way as us, except those far harder and didn't come

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Speaker 1: in the form of Instagram likes. I also don't think that, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it might have been the dopamine that would spur them

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Speaker 1: to maybe go further and finding food, But you know

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Speaker 1: what motivation would they have found to seek out the

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Speaker 1: next meal? Hunger? Hunger would have been that motivation. She

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Speaker 1: writes that people now expect to be happy all the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that's true. I think we probably

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Speaker 1: have a lot more wallowing than our ancestors who lived

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Speaker 1: constantly under threat. But the things that ultimately made us happy,

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Speaker 1: having a good meal, warm bed, all of that really

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Speaker 1: has stayed the same. Like have you ever worked a

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Speaker 1: long day or been out all day and then you

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Speaker 1: get home and you take a shower and you get

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Speaker 1: into your nice, clean, warm bed and that feeling is

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Speaker 1: so amazing. I mean, that's our ancestors having that same

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Speaker 1: feeling getting into whatever comfortable position they had. I think

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Speaker 1: about stuff like this, where, you know, we kind of

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Speaker 1: look at modern life as like, oh this is you know,

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Speaker 1: we chase this dopamine hit and it's so bad. But

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Speaker 1: I really don't think it's that different than what our

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Speaker 1: ancestors did. I once read a story about a therapist

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Speaker 1: who work in a refugee camp. These people in the camp,

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Speaker 1: she wrote, had lost everything and she was there to

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Speaker 1: counsel them, but the eighteen year old girls still wanted

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Speaker 1: to discuss how the boy she liked didn't like her

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Speaker 1: back and instead preferred her cousin and that made her

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Speaker 1: feel bad, and that's what she wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: this therapist about. People aren't that different than they were,

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Speaker 1: And I hate the idea of treating our phones because

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Speaker 1: we're so addicted to them, as if there's something other

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Speaker 1: than a tool that we can use and put away. Look,

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Speaker 1: I know people are addicted to their phones. I'm sometimes

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Speaker 1: addicted to my phone. But we can acknowledge it and

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Speaker 1: curtail our use. It's not heroin. I think about that

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Speaker 1: all the time, that people compare it to like serious

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Speaker 1: drugs that have like physical withdrawals, and people die sometimes

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Speaker 1: from withdrawal. That's not what your phone is. Your phone

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Speaker 1: can be put away. You can we don't have to

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Speaker 1: keep scrolling for the dopamine hit. We can be like

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Speaker 1: our ancestors and take that dopamine break. Coming up next

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Speaker 1: and interview with Spencer. Join us after the break. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Spencer Claven, author of the book How to

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Speaker 1: Save the West, Ancient Wisdom for five Modern Crisises, and

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Speaker 1: the host of the Young Heretics podcast. Hi Spencer, how

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Speaker 1: are you, Carol?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great. It's so nice to see you, and

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Speaker 2: thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on. You have a

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Speaker 1: lot of big words in there. Heretics, Crisises I you know,

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Speaker 1: I did the best I could.

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Speaker 2: Just beautiful. It rolls off the tongue.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. So with your appearance on my show today,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually concluding the Claven Moore trifecta. I've interviewed your dad,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Claven, and your sister Faith more about their books.

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Speaker 1: Although maybe I shouldn't say this is the end. What's

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Speaker 1: your mom up to? Maybe we can schedule a chat.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're like Pokemon, you know, got to catch them all.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for thanks for collecting the full set. Unfortunately, however,

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Speaker 2: I have disappoint you because my mother, who is by

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Speaker 2: far the best person in my family, I mean, not

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Speaker 2: even a competition miles and miles beyond us all, is

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Speaker 2: also the only one that never does any media. She's

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Speaker 2: extremely private.

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Speaker 1: Boo. Yeah, sorry, all right, you know I might try

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Speaker 1: anyway like she does it as a favor to us,

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Speaker 1: part of the chase.

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Speaker 2: Oh really good. Yeah, yeah, that's the appeal. No, she

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Speaker 2: does as a favorite to us so that we won't

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Speaker 2: look bad by comparison, because if she did have podcast

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Speaker 2: or a book, then nobody would pay any attention to

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Speaker 2: the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: That's great. So you're also doing a new sub Stack

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Speaker 1: with your dad. What is it called? Tell my listeners

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Speaker 1: about it? How can they sign up? And they should

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Speaker 1: sign up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, thank you. I'm really excited about this. It's

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Speaker 2: called the New Jerusalem, which is a reference to the

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Speaker 2: Book of Revelation when the New Jerusalem comes out of

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Speaker 2: heaven and down to Earth, which should give you a

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Speaker 2: sense of the project. It's about what it means to

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Speaker 2: live in faith here and now, not in some imaginary

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Speaker 2: before time, but in the world of the Internet and

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Speaker 2: technology and all the many crises that we are currently

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Speaker 2: basing down. We're doing it in the format of a

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Speaker 2: father son conversation. So Andrew Claven, my dad, no relation,

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Speaker 2: and I have been really just lucky and blessed in

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Speaker 2: our relationship that we get to discuss these big ideas.

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Speaker 2: And we used to go over long hikes together in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles when he lived there and just kind of

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Speaker 2: ruminate on this stuff forever, and we wanted to invite

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Speaker 2: people into that. So the Subtec is the way of

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Speaker 2: doing that. It's the New Jerusalem dot substack dot com.

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Speaker 2: And what it'll be. The way it'll work is we'll

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Speaker 2: post an opening essay written by both of us and

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Speaker 2: then every day. From then on, we'll just be writing

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Speaker 2: back and forth to each other, kind of like letting

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Speaker 2: you in on a series of emails between us. There

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Speaker 2: will also be a list of our most cherished works

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Speaker 2: of art and books that we kind of build gradually

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Speaker 2: on Fridays, which is for paid subscribers. If you want

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Speaker 2: to support us, you can send up for that, but

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Speaker 2: the rest of it's free. And yeah, you can sign

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Speaker 2: up at the New Jerusalem dot substack dot com and yeah,

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Speaker 2: become moret of the journey with us.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to sign up. I just I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: I'm smart enough for all this, but I'll do my

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Speaker 1: very best.

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Speaker 2: Wait, no, okay, first of all, that's I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I think this is in the book. I can't

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Speaker 2: remember if I put this in the book or not.

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Speaker 2: But I often have conversations that begin with somebody saying

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Speaker 2: I'm not that smart or I'm not smart enough for

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Speaker 2: X or y, And those are always the best conversations

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Speaker 2: because it turns out people are actually much smarter and

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Speaker 2: they are more philosophical they than they think. And I

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Speaker 2: know that's actually true of you. So yes, come along,

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Speaker 2: come join.

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Speaker 1: But you guys, you know you just your whole family

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Speaker 1: just comes off as you know, just a little smarter

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Speaker 1: than the average people. So again, I'm going to sign

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Speaker 1: up and I'm going to follow it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I'll do my best to keep up with the Clevens.

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Speaker 1: I feel like keeping up with the Kardashians is maybe

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Speaker 1: a little easier.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you will not find, unfortunately, any of our

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Speaker 2: like botox tips or.

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Speaker 1: So. I have your book. I love your book, And

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Speaker 1: one question that I ask all of my guests is

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Speaker 1: what do you think is our largest cultural or societal

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Speaker 1: problem in America? And is it solvable? In this case?

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Speaker 1: I think that question takes us, you know, into the

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Speaker 1: direction of your book. You write about five essential crisis

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Speaker 1: and the crisis of reality, the body, the crisis of meaning,

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Speaker 1: of religion, of the regime. Which do you think is

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Speaker 1: the most pressing for us as a country right now?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say the crisis of religion, which

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Speaker 2: is really the heart of the book, and actually in

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Speaker 2: particular right now, I think the most pressing social problem

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Speaker 2: we're facing is anti Semitism. I was thinking about this

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Speaker 2: this morning. We have seen, ever since October seventh, a

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Speaker 2: profoundly dark resurgence of some of the leiest stereotypes, but

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Speaker 2: also trends about in relationship to Jewish people. And the

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Speaker 2: reason that I bring this up is not only because

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Speaker 2: of my love for the Jews and my Jewish heritage,

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Speaker 2: but because I think that anti Semitism represents now as

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Speaker 2: it always has, a profound sickness in the spiritual heart

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Speaker 2: of man. It is the oldest hatred, and the Jews

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Speaker 2: are the most hated people throughout history, the reason for

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Speaker 2: which is at least in part that as part of

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Speaker 2: their role as the Chosen people, they really do. Jewish

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Speaker 2: people really do stand in for us in relationship to God.

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Speaker 2: And I believe, and I argue in the book, that

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Speaker 2: the human heart can hardly bear to see itself in

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Speaker 2: a true light in relation to God and to contemplate

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Speaker 2: the nature of its inadequacies, and we do everything we

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Speaker 2: can to look away and ignore our calling as divinely

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Speaker 2: created beings. And I suspect that hatred of Jewish people,

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Speaker 2: anti Semitism, these things that come up again and again,

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Speaker 2: no matter how hard we try to erase them or

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Speaker 2: resist them, this is an indicator that we are once

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Speaker 2: again facing up to our own brokenness. And since we

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Speaker 2: can't look at that we offload it all onto Jewish

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Speaker 2: people and to the Jewish religion. And so you ask

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Speaker 2: me if this is solvable In the deepest and most

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Speaker 2: profound sense, I don't think it's ever possible to eradicate

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Speaker 2: this problem. I think it's baked into the tragic nature

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Speaker 2: of the world. But I believe, even still, even now,

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Speaker 2: passionately that Americans perhaps uniquely are equipped to reckon with

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Speaker 2: and to expunge this sickness from our hearts because of

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Speaker 2: the nature of our creed and our founding documents that

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Speaker 2: we actually do believe in this country. And there's still

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Speaker 2: a deep into at war now with the worst elements

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Speaker 2: of us and the worst angels of our nature, demons,

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Speaker 2: I guess of our nature. There is still a deep

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Speaker 2: instinct that we are in doubt by our creator, with

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Speaker 2: inalienable rights, that we're created equal. And yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a big predictor. I hate making predictions,

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Speaker 2: which means that I'm neither a pessimist nor an optimist

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Speaker 2: because I don't know what's going to happen. But I

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Speaker 2: am a big advocate of hope. That's one of the

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Speaker 2: three Christian virtues. Faith hope and love, and hope means

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Speaker 2: where are you placing your efforts? Where you pouring your heart.

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Speaker 2: I'm pouring it into that crisis of religion, hoping against

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Speaker 2: hope and trying desperately to kind of call people back

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Speaker 2: to these core truths of our creativeness in the image

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Speaker 2: of God and the results, the political result, which is

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Speaker 2: fundamental human equality and the truest and best sense.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean I think that I also have

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Speaker 1: basically the biggest hope for America and Americans, especially where

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Speaker 1: the issue of anti Semitism is concerned. I have more

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Speaker 1: faith than the American people and in our system than

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Speaker 1: I do in you know, any other country basically. But

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Speaker 1: have you been surprised about the kind of spike and

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Speaker 1: anti semitism since October seventh? I feel like even so,

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Speaker 1: I am an optimist, I think, and I haven't been

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Speaker 1: shocked because I think it's been heading in this direction

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Speaker 1: for a number of years, and people have sort of

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Speaker 1: looked away, including you know, my fellow Jews. I think

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Speaker 1: they just didn't want to see it. But have you

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Speaker 1: been like shocked at the kind of events that have

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Speaker 1: happened since then?

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Speaker 2: I've said for a while that we need a word.

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Speaker 2: Maybe there's some great German word that means something that

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Speaker 2: is shocking but not surprising. So whenever, right, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there is, you know, right, like whenever the sort of

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Speaker 2: woke crowd comes up with something absurd, Like I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you saw that video that's floating around the internet.

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Speaker 2: It was like a Stacy Abrams choral performance about our

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Speaker 2: rights depend on it, Like it was like this incredibly.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm going to have to go find.

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Speaker 2: That, Harold. Okay, wait, maybe I'll send it to you

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Speaker 2: afterwards and you can link to it or something. But

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Speaker 2: it's so cringe and over the top that you're like,

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Speaker 2: I can't believe they're doing this, But also I actually

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Speaker 2: totally can. And that's that feeling that I feel like

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Speaker 2: we have all the time now, And that's how I

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Speaker 2: feel about this hideous resurgence of just the most kind

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Speaker 2: of atavistic and obvious and crude forms of anti Semitism.

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Speaker 2: I am shocked and appalled by it, but I'm not

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Speaker 2: actually all that surprised, in part for the reasons that

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Speaker 2: you suggested. I think we've been toying with this stuff

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Speaker 2: for a long time. We've been playing with fire poisoning

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Speaker 2: our race relations, which always ultimately comes back to these

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Speaker 2: sort of religious wars, and especially animists towards Jewish people.

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Speaker 2: So I think this was kind of in the works.

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Speaker 2: I also think that because our ruling classes think that

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Speaker 2: they're immune from this sort of thing, they imagined themselves

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Speaker 2: to be virtuous and pure, and never they thought that

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Speaker 2: they were the grand white knights that were warring against

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Speaker 2: the evil, racist, bad orange man people or the nasty deplorables.

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Speaker 2: And that is the surest fire recipe for a return

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Speaker 2: to the worst and most obvious forms of hatred that

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Speaker 2: humanity is capable of, because if you think that you're

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Speaker 2: kind of immune from that, then you're ultimately really vulnerable

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Speaker 2: and just ignorant I think about the nature of human hatred.

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Speaker 2: So no, I'm not surprised, but I am appalled.

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Speaker 1: You say you're not an optimist, but your book is

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Speaker 1: How to Save the West. I mean, isn't that sort

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Speaker 1: of an optimistic vision for how we make things better,

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Speaker 1: how we make the country and society.

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Speaker 2: Better in a certain sense. And everyone thinks that I'm

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Speaker 2: an optimist for sure. That's the word that GE's applied

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Speaker 2: to me most often, and It's why I started thinking

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Speaker 2: about well am I actually And the reason that I'm

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Speaker 2: not an optimist is because I don't think anything is

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Speaker 2: written in the stars. And I understand optimism and pessimism

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Speaker 2: both to be convictions about what you're certain is going

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Speaker 2: to happen in the future, and for that reason, they

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Speaker 2: both lead to certain errors. So optimism tends toward complacency,

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Speaker 2: I think, in its most extreme forms, if you think

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Speaker 2: everything's going to go okay, you're not going to.

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Speaker 1: Do anything about it.

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Speaker 2: It's hard exactly. Pessimism also tends toward in action, but

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Speaker 2: in the form of despair, which is an actual sin.

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Speaker 2: Conservatives are so guilty of this, I think so much

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Speaker 2: of the time we love to know that everything is

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Speaker 2: going to go wrong. It makes us feel very special

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Speaker 2: and makes.

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Speaker 1: Us feel you can't do anything about it. So what

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Speaker 1: are you going to do? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, complain complain online, I think, is the answer to

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Speaker 2: that question. And so that's why I say that I'm

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Speaker 2: neither of those things. Is because when I say that

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen, I genuinely mean

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Speaker 2: I don't know, and I have faith I trust in

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Speaker 2: God that ultimately the final answer to the whole of

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Speaker 2: this history is going to be good. But in the meantime,

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Speaker 2: my question is where are we in what is possible?

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Speaker 2: And in what is possible? I'm looking for the best

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Speaker 2: that can be thought and said, which is why my

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Speaker 2: book is titled How to Save the West, and why

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Speaker 2: it's written the way that it is, because it's not

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Speaker 2: actually about how the West is absolutely going to be

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Speaker 2: fine and everything's gonna be hunky dory. It's about how,

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Speaker 2: even in bad times, the West has always endured, and

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Speaker 2: people who carry it forward are people like you and

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Speaker 2: meet people who start conversations by saying I'm not that smart.

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Speaker 2: People that feel doubt and fear and all the normal

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Speaker 2: things that we feel. Nevertheless wake up in the morning

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Speaker 2: and put our socks on and feed our kids. I

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Speaker 2: just attributed children to you that I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I do have told you. Yeah, you're old, you're good.

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Speaker 2: For kids, right, I'm sorry of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my my youngest son went to school with your

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Speaker 1: oldest nephew.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, okay, so that's and that's how faith. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Yeah, I just was like, no.

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Speaker 1: I need to be sorry. I feel like I was

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Speaker 1: going to say that I'm going to pressure you later

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Speaker 1: on in this conversation that you clearly need to have

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Speaker 1: children because we need little Spencer Cleveman's running around.

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Speaker 2: Well, we certainly can get to that, but okay, so anyway,

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Speaker 2: but my point was just that you know, the stuff

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Speaker 2: that we do kind of in the morning and throughout

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Speaker 2: our day in our neighborhoods like that is the stuff

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Speaker 2: of saving the West. And it doesn't depend on making

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Speaker 2: a grand pronouncement about everything that's going to go right

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Speaker 2: or wrong like that. These things, this stuff has happened,

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Speaker 2: that this tradition has been maintained through the sacking of

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Speaker 2: Rome and the rise of the Soviet regime, and you know,

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Speaker 2: in in gulags as well as in ivory towers. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's something we have to remember so that

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Speaker 2: we don't get disappointed in the reality of the world,

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Speaker 2: which is often very messy and very difficult.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right

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Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So when you say

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Speaker 1: how we can save the West, what are some other

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Speaker 1: than you know, the getting up every day and taking

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Speaker 1: care of your kids and all of that. What are

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Speaker 1: some of the ideas that you think that people should

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Speaker 1: embrace in order to save our civilization.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the book big question. I'm sorry, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I mean looking, I put myself on the hook for

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Speaker 2: this when I wrote a book called How You Really

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Speaker 2: Did Rest? Right? Yeah, there's there's no escaping it. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that do say at the outside

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Speaker 2: of the book is that you're not going to open

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Speaker 2: these covers and find a political program, which is by

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Speaker 2: design because if our hope for salvation rests in a

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Speaker 2: politician or law, we are in trouble. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: just no certainty to be had there. The kind of

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Speaker 2: TLDR version of my book is log off and go

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Speaker 2: to church. And that's not because I think that it's

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Speaker 2: not because I think the technology is evil. I actually

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Speaker 2: think that it's it. It doesn't matter whether it's evil

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Speaker 2: or not. It is now kind of embedded in our lives,

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Speaker 2: and you and I are currently having a conversation and

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Speaker 2: an interaction that we would never have if the Internet

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Speaker 2: didn't exist. So these are tools. You know, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: pay to talk about them as if they we have

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Speaker 2: no control over them or no choice in how we

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Speaker 2: use them. But a major theme of my book is

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Speaker 2: rooting ourselves back in the here and now. I think

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Speaker 2: this kind of starts to emerge, well, it starts in

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Speaker 2: the first chapter, which is the reality crisis is about

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Speaker 2: kind of our disconnection from the obvious truths around us

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Speaker 2: that we're able to experience and perceive, and our alienation

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Speaker 2: from just the felt sense of life that actually our connections,

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Speaker 2: our desires, our aspirations, our memories, our loves. These things

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Speaker 2: aren't just brain farts or accidents of our biochemistry. They

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Speaker 2: are the stuff of what we are. And so rerooting

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Speaker 2: ourselves in that first and foremost and then the body

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Speaker 2: crisis really does I think kind of drive this home

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Speaker 2: when I start talking about the trans extremism that we've seen,

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Speaker 2: but also kind of it's more advanced, like cutting edged stages,

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Speaker 2: which are not just about sex and gender, but they're

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Speaker 2: about transhumanism and people that hope to escape from humanity altogether.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be a major theme by the

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Speaker 2: way of the New Jerusalem. You could replace well not

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Speaker 2: you couldn't replace go to church with go to the gym,

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Speaker 2: but you could add to go to church to go

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Speaker 2: to the gym, or join a softball team or you know,

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Speaker 2: become part of some sort of physical activity that gets

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Speaker 2: you in contact with other human beings. There are a

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Speaker 2: lot of people that ask me when they listen to

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Speaker 2: my podcast, like how do I cultivate relationships? How do

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Speaker 2: I make friends? That sort of thing, And one.

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Speaker 1: Of my favorite questions, you're going to answer, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I actually have an answer, and it comes

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Speaker 2: from the Western canon, so it's even better. It's not

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Speaker 2: my answer, it's Cistero's answer and an Aristotle's answer, and

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Speaker 2: that is become the kind of person you would want

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Speaker 2: to be friends with, especially become that person by seeking virtue.

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Speaker 2: There are four they're called cardinal or you know, we

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Speaker 2: might think of them as kind of the core virtues,

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Speaker 2: the excellences of the soul, the way to be really

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Speaker 2: good at being human, And they don't depend on being

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Speaker 2: smart or even particularly you know, good in your raw form,

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Speaker 2: and they depend on daily habits. So they are temperance,

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Speaker 2: taking care of the way that you relate to your desires,

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Speaker 2: not rejecting your desires, but managing them with your reason. Courage,

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Speaker 2: which I think is one of the ones that's most

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Speaker 2: lacking at the moment and one of the hardest really

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Speaker 2: saying to just plunge in and undertake. But it's the

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Speaker 2: excellence of the heart. Right courage is what enables you

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Speaker 2: to follow through on your big grand ideas. Wisdom which

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Speaker 2: is perhaps the most abstract, but is what enables you

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Speaker 2: to make these choices about well, what am I gonna

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Speaker 2: you know, what am I gonna do today? Of all

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Speaker 2: the different possibilities, of all my different desires and impulses,

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Speaker 2: which ones are I going to indulge? Wich On's I'm

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Speaker 2: going to arrest? And we seek that through the tradition,

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Speaker 2: right through the canon and through the kinds of works

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Speaker 2: that I'm talking about in the book. And then finally

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Speaker 2: justice dkay, which we think of as this sometimes we

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Speaker 2: like outsource justice. We put it on the government. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about social justice, which is another way of saying

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Speaker 2: justice by people other than me, right justice by like

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Speaker 2: a group of people that haven't do with me. But actually,

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Speaker 2: the classical sense of justice is an individual virtue, and

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Speaker 2: it's about right organization of all the parts, the right

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Speaker 2: integration of the different parts of your soul and your person.

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Speaker 2: And it starts there. It starts with the man in

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Speaker 2: the mirror, as MJ would say, right, and then rose

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Speaker 2: outward into the right relationship between cousin and wife, father

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Speaker 2: and child, mother and child, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 2: So I would say, like, if you want to know

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Speaker 2: how to make friends, if you want to know how

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Speaker 2: to get back into the game, how to get some

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Speaker 2: agency in your life, start with those those cardinal virtues

434
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: and start with becoming the kind of person that you

435
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,239
Speaker 2: want to meet. And you will be shocked at how

436
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: quickly in that process run into exactly the people that

437
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: you're looking for. But you won't find them by going

438
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 2: out and trying to put it on them to be good.

439
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: To be the people you want, you got to put

440
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 2: on yourself first thing.

441
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,959
Speaker 1: So interesting, So now that you've solved Western civilization, what

442
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: would you say? What would do? A question that I

443
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: ask all of my guests, is your best tip for

444
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: my listeners on how they can improve their individual lives.

445
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: You've touched on making friends and you know, kind of

446
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: improving yourself in that way. What's your best tip overall

447
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: for how people can improve their daily lives.

448
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: Okay, I wouldn't be me if I didn't answer this

449
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 2: question with a quote from somebody who spoke Greek, and

450
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 2: so I'm going to do that.

451
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: I thought you're going to say. It wouldn't be me

452
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: if I didn't say go to the gym, because I

453
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: follow you on Twitter, and.

454
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I am a gun. There's a lot

455
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 2: of content, no question, but you know, I'm actually not

456
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: going to say that, although you should go to the gym.

457
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: No.

458
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: So, Marcus Aurelius isn't one of the most famous names

459
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: from the ancient worlds so many and people have heard

460
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: of it's actually Julius Czily. People have heard of him,

461
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: but they don't necessarily read his book Meditations, which is

462
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: really still one of the best self help books in

463
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: the world because it's not a list of prescriptions. It's

464
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: a record of inner dialogue. It's about the thoughts of

465
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: a man who's trying really hard to cultivate those virtues.

466
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: And so the piece of advice that I'm going to

467
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: give is lifted right out of the Meditations, and it's

468
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: the obstacle is the way. This is one of his

469
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: most famous statements. It essentially means the thing that you

470
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: think is keeping you from your goals or interrupting your

471
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: smooth path of life is actually what you're supposed to

472
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 2: be dealing with right now. It's there for you to

473
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: learn from. And I think that so much of the time,

474
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the misery that we inflict upon ourselves

475
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: has to do with this picture in our heads of like,

476
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: here's the path and the goal, the end of the

477
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: path is in the future, and now this annoying thing,

478
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: whatever it.

479
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: Is, like twitter you okay.

480
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: Okay, right, yes, love it or politics or whatever work

481
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: you know, is getting in the way. And so now

482
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: the path is here, and we're here, we're somewhere else.

483
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: But Aurelius's brilliant insight, which I think will make you

484
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: have and also more effective, which are two important things.

485
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: Both matter. Is to give up on that line, that

486
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: straight line you have in mind toward the goal, because

487
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: it doesn't exist, that's in your that's a figment of

488
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 2: your imagination. And what's happening to you right now, whether

489
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: you like it or not, is the thing that merits

490
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: your attention. And the minute you get like let go

491
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 2: of the imaginary line, straight line toward the goal and

492
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: turn yourself toward the actual situation, the minute solutions start

493
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: to present themselves to you and you actually find that

494
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: there might actually be enormous wisdom for you in the

495
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: situation here.

496
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: And now I really like that my husband recently reread Meditations.

497
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: I haven't. I mean, I read it in high school,

498
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: but I haven't. I haven't read it in a long time.

499
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: I think it's I'm also due for reread you now, really.

500
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: Can I plug something else in that? Gay?

501
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Please? Yeah?

502
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 2: Okay. So I last year wrote the forward to a

503
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: collection of Stoic writings, including the complete Meditations. It's called

504
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: the Gateway to this and I also have some translations

505
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: in there of some letters by Seneca that are also bangers.

506
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: So, my gosh, I'm going to order that right now.

507
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: Tell me again what it's.

508
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 2: Called Gateway to the Stoics.

509
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: Gateway to the Stoics. I'm going to check it out.

510
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: I'd advise all of my listeners to do the same,

511
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: so we could be maybe as smart as Spenser someday.

512
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: So you got married in the last year year plus.

513
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a little over a year ago.

514
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: A little over a year ago. You're insanely successful in

515
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: all of these different ways. Do you feel like you've

516
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: made it?

517
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: You are so sweet, and this question is so hard.

518
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 2: You're also very mean. I I ask everybody this, and

519
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: I get such a range of answers.

520
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: I love it, you know.

521
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I like the question because of how hard

522
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: it is, because of the three that you posed, is

523
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: the only one that I thought, like, I genuinely don't

524
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: know how I would answer this. I can certainly say

525
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: that every minute of every day, I'm doing exactly what

526
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 2: I want to be doing. And maybe that's in part

527
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: because of the whole obstacle is the way mindset, But

528
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think I'm very very lucky.

529
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: I work hard, but I also have just been blessed

530
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: beyond measure, and so you know, it's part of my

531
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: joy in life that I don't see myself ever like retiring.

532
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: I would like to work as long as I have breath,

533
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: Like my work is my life. And you know I

534
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: love my husband profoundly more and more each day. Yeah,

535
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: I think, I think like I'm very satisfied, but I

536
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: also am like part of my satisfaction is a deep,

537
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: deep dissatisfaction, like a huge ambition. And I guess here's

538
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: one last thing that I that I'll say about this.

539
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: Not having answered your question, I feel like you.

540
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: Did answer it, but yeah, okay, I think you've made it.

541
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: I think maybe you've made it.

542
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: Maybe, I guess yeah, I feel very very lucky and joyful.

543
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 2: And I will say that the other day actually I

544
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: was really grinding my gears as as I basically I'm

545
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: always doing over like the project that I wanted to

546
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: complete next and it's actually a new book. You know,

547
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: I'm working on this thing and I going to be

548
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: going to finish this thing. And there's this sense when

549
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: you do that that like I just want to be

550
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: finished with it, you know, like I want to get

551
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: it out, I want to achieve the thing. And then

552
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: and then I stopped and I had this thought like,

553
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: don't kid yourself. You like this, like you're happy, right,

554
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: you know, you're happy with the gears grinding. And I

555
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: think if you can be happy with the gears grinding,

556
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: then maybe in some sense you have made it.

557
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: That is perfect. I really I've enjoyed talking to you

558
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: so much. His book is How to Save the West

559
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: Spencer Craven. You are fantastic. We will follow all of

560
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: your different projects. And thank you so much for coming on, Carol.

561
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: What a joy. Thank you very much for having me.

562
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markoli Show.

563
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,