WEBVTT - The Club Pro Crisis - Part 2: "Work/Life Imbalance" 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:04.400 The club expects their golf proth and their assistant pros 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:05.960 to make sure everything's perfect. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:08.399 We want a club row that can play like Tiger, 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.520 teach like butch merchandise like Ralph Lauren, and tell jokes 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:13.080 like Bob Hope. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.920 Right, it is absolutely The problem is the amount of 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:17.000 pay for the amount of work. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.760 It doesn't mesh for clubs. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.119 If you don't make these changes, you're not going to 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.200 get the people you want. Your product is going to suffer. 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.000 People are not going to want to come play there, 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.159 They're going to go elsewhere, and you're eventually going to 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:28.880 go out of business. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.040 Is seth while helping He's the right guy in the 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.800 driver's seat, But is there a vehicle he can drive 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:38.600 that can make it any better? 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.839 People are put on earth to make everybody's lives better, right, Like? 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.080 How can he not want to be surrounded by those people? 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.720 Right then? And that's what our PGA professional is. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.600 You know, it's not perfect, We're not perfect times far 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:53.320 from perfect. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.720 We're moving the needle, making a lot. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.560 Of progress and I hope people are noticing it. But 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.640 that's not the point either, right. The point is leaving 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:04.960 the room better. And I'm going to keep fighting to 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:10.400 do that every day. 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:19.000 Put another log on the fire Nobody here is to 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:19.839 get the time. 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.720 Welcome to the fire Pit with Matt Janella. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:31.880 In part one of this series of podcasts on the 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.920 club pro crisis, we got the background on how and 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.520 why I'm doing this. In short, I said something ignorant. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.959 I think most would call it stupid, and many did. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.720 It's hard to be stupid without being ignorant, but I'd 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.160 like to think you can be ignorant without being stupid. Anyway, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.600 For more context, I hope you've listened to Part one 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.800 to summarize my sincere apologies to club pros and PGA professionals. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.280 I appreciate you, and many of you I consider friends. 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.080 It's your humility and selflessness that are actually part of 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.320 the problem. As one club pro told me, you're not 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.000 good at promoting yourselves. You're too busy helping others, and 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:16.760 thus you're often taken for granted. On that note, I 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.119 want to thank some of the sponsors of the Firepit collective. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.440 Dormy Workshop is an incredible company, a golf family business 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.120 based in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where all they do is 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.480 make quality leather headcovers and accessories. Go to Dormy Workshop 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.720 dot com and use fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.720 off your next purchase. And then there's Link Soul, the 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.640 lifestyle clothing brand I've worn on and off the course, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.880 in and out of the water for ten years. Polos hats, hoodies, shorts, 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.880 pants and T shirts. Make par nott War and go 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.240 to link Soul dot com and use promo code fire 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.200 Pit twenty five for twenty five percent off your next purchase. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.080 All right, For part two of this series, we start 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.320 with Shane Ryan, author of several golf books, which includes 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.760 Slaying the Tiger, Chasing the Legends, and The Cup They 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:10.360 Couldn't Lose. Ryan has written for Grantlin, Paste Magazine, and 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.919 The New York Times, and in May of twenty twenty two, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.639 wrote a story for Golf Dies entitled The Club Pro Crisis. 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:23.040 Why did you feel compelled or sort of inspired to 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.560 do what you did in telling that the story that 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:26.320 you've told here? 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.720 Yeah, I mean, like you, Matt, I didn't know a 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.840 lot about this at all. I was not familiar with 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:33.640 this world. You know, you know your club pro when 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.960 you go practice or play, and you sort of take 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.760 them for granted and you don't realize that, hey, they 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:39.520 might be working seventy hours a week and they might 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.960 be under incredible stress and you know, not making as 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.920 much money as they want and all that. It actually 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.960 stemmed from a conversation I had. I wrote a book 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.040 about the Ryder Cup, and in the course of it, 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.120 you know, I talked with the number of different people, 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.280 and basically through the crazy paths that sometimes happened, I 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.880 ended up talking with the club pro who said, you know, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.200 you really need to look at this issue. It's happening everywhere. 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.840 It's a big deal. It's like a basically an epidemic. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.400 And so that kind of piqued my interest and I 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.000 sort of, you know, put a pin on it. And 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.040 then when I had time, I threw a tweet out 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.320 there just saying, you know, is this something that's happening. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.320 Do you feel like you're not in control of your time, 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.599 You're being overworked, you're being underpaid, mistreated, whatever. And the 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:26.120 response was unbelievable, not just people you know, tweeting back 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.440 at me, but tagging everybody in that they knew. I 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:30.880 got a ton of emails and yeah, then it was 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.080 just off to the races, going wow, I had no idea. 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.359 This was such a phenomenon, and yeah, the story idea 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:37.440 was born from that. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.239 More on Shane Ryan's reporting in a minute for now 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.440 back to Chandler Withington, who we heard from throughout part 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.480 one of this series. Withington is formerly of Seminal Marion 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.760 and Hazeltine, which is where he resigned from his post 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.440 as head professional in twenty twenty one. 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.880 So the summer of twenty one is when my wife 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.360 and I really started having a conversation about is this us? 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.560 And it was really accelerated in our three year old 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.560 now she's two. You know, sometimes you go a week 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.919 fourteen days without seeing your kids awake, and you know, 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.560 two year olds don't have the memory. You know, my 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:14.720 two year old looked at me one day when I 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.680 was home. She looks at me and she goes, what 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.720 are you doing in mommy's house? She didn't know who 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:21.080 I was? 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.640 And that was it. That was that was all I. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.320 Needed, you know, to do, Like, if my daughter doesn't 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:27.920 know who I am, then what are we really doing here? 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:28.120 Here? 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.880 From Shane Ryan's reporting and platform, several of these issues 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.640 have been exposed and according to censu's Art of War, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.240 if you know the enemy in yourself. You need not 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.480 fear the result of one hundred battles. Here's Cody Sinkler, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.320 director of golf operations at the Park in West Palm Beach, Florida. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.120 I think golf pros are in a place right now 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.960 where I don't know if fed up is the word, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.840 but we're a little sensitive in the golf pro crisis. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:06.120 Shane's article highlighted what is very common. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:11.719 I mean, what's highlighted in that article is are examples 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:17.200 of the lives of a lot of golf pros, if 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.200 not the majority of golf pros. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.960 And here's Connor Evers, who graduated from the PGM program 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.440 at Methodist University in Fayetteville, North Carolina. He did internships 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.720 in Massachusetts, Jackson Hole, Detroit, and his last one was 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.960 at Adare Manor in Ireland. At twenty five years old, 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.000 he's been to thirty countries, which serves him well at 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:41.120 his current role of expedition planning manager for Haversham and Baker, 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.359 a company that describes themselves as quote the country club 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.240 of international golf travel. Here's Evers on the impact of 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:50.440 Shane Ryan's. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.240 Story when that article came out. 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:56.440 I mean my social media and text blew up. I 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.400 mean that morning when that drop, everyone was talking about it. 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.159 I mean everyone that I'm connected with or in the 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.520 golf industry. That's just kind of how my life is. 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:05.960 But it was great. 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.479 It definitely got you know, talking points, and I know 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.640 a few of my friends their members came up and 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.680 was I mean, they're there every single day, but I 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.080 guess that was reading that article. A lot of people 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.920 as members were like, oh, I guess I should be 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:23.840 a little bit more thankful for what you guys do 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.840 for me. And that happened actually quite a few times, 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.000 tough out a couple of my people that I know. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.080 So yeah, it was pretty interesting. That was very lightning, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.920 and I definitely think that was kind of the spark 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.160 that kind of let the fire, if you will. With 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:39.480 the whole conversation a lot. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.880 More Back to Shane Ryan, one thing I would say 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.080 is that the people I spoke to that are working 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.760 on this are not necessarily you know, these idealists or anything. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:51.560 And what the message they gave me, and I think 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.480 it's an important message, is that for clubs, if you 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.800 don't make these changes, you're not going to get the 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.200 people you want. Your product is going to suffer. People 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:00.640 are not going to want to come play there, They're 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.680 going to go elsewhere, and you're eventually going to go 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:03.320 out of business. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:03.640 Right. 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:05.840 This is not some kind of charity thing you need 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.600 to do. This is like a life and death thing 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.080 that all golf clubs need to look at because it 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:11.400 is crucial to their survival. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.720 One of the things that needs looking at. One of 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:21.960 the battles is work life balance or imbalance. Here's robins Manly, 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.520 who became a class A pro twenty years ago. He 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.520 was an assistant pro at Breckenridge Golf Club for both decades. 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.360 After getting married at the age of forty six, he 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.280 left the golf industry and although he still has his 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.200 PGA membership and teaches on occasion, his current focus is 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:37.840 real estate. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.400 I don't have the answer, but I think it definitely 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:46.320 comes from a misunderstanding of what that PGA logo really 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.760 means and what the value that we bring and us 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.640 as we have a hard time tooting our own horn, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.240 I think as PGA professionals of really going to our 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.360 employer and saying, look this is these are the I 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.520 taught and these are the number of golfers that I 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.200 brought to the game that are now avid golfers that 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.040 are now buying clubs and now joining Ladies League and 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.199 Men's League. And we've got to do a better job 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:16.280 ourselves of promoting that and letting our employer know our value. 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.520 But it is there's not a perfect answer, for sure, 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.800 because golf is a sign up to sundown business and 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.120 if you're not there, it's rowned upon. 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:28.199 And so. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.280 I don't have the answer. And I and I've been 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.160 out of the business for a couple of years, so 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.440 I'm not actively in the grind. But the reason I 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.400 left was I wanted to get married and I knew 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.640 that that was not going to that wasn't going to 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.920 work eighty hours and not being with my new bride 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.360 wasn't and financially wasn't going to work. But I use 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.400 my golf connections to now move into the real estate world, 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:59.440 which has been awesome. So it was a great, great 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.920 glad to still be a PGA member. I'll be a 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:07.000 life member here pretty soon. And but yeah, I don't 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.360 have the perfect answer, but it is absolutely The problem 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.599 is the amount of pay for the amount of work. 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:15.800 Doesn't mesh for. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.240 A deeper dive in context back to Chandler Wington. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.160 If you rewind and you got to talk to Seth. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.880 February twenty twenty. Seth invited me and Kerry Cosby and 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.320 a few others down to Florida. He wanted to have 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.320 kind of like a side council. You know, He's like, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.280 tell me, tell me what's really going on. You know 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:34.720 that the board is going to tell me what's going on, 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:35.600 but what's really going on? 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:36.439 And how can I help? 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.320 Went around the table at the reef, which I'm sure 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.199 you've been to. You know, Bob Ford, you know, was retiring. 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:44.920 He said, look, Seth, you're a financial guy. I think 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.840 you know pension program be really impactful. And that's where 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.880 you know, Seth started a deferred compensation program which is 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.199 really impactful. And that's what that conversation started from. Went 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.600 around the table and it got to me and I said, look, Bob, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.280 I said, pension's impactful, no doubt, right, But I tell 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:01.960 you right now, like the twenty five year old kid's 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:03.920 going to look at that laugh because they're getting out 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.760 because of something else. I said, I think the biggest 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.720 threat to our industry is the expectation of our time, 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.920 and we are the Titanic heading towards the Iceberg. And 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.360 if we can't reset expectations with the club managers and 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.760 the club leaders and the boards, we're going to hit 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.840 the Iceberger and it's going to think this. And I 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.599 looked right over Bob. I said, Bob, don't even say it, 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.040 because I know what you're thinking. Like, I mean, here's 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.760 a guy who worked Oakmont and Seminal right said you 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.000 busted your ass. And I'm not trying to call younger 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.160 generation or even me lazy, but things have changed, is 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:35.680 all I'm telling you. Is like the job that you 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.000 did for so long is not the way it is anymore. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:40.880 And Bob goes, I am laughing parts I hear it, 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.319 and I see it as it said. It's going to 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.400 feel like global warming. It's like one of those things 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.679 where it's like we should look at this and we 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.720 should start taking measures now, because you can't just reverse 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.839 the cycle. You know, when you get there right, it 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.720 takes years to reverse it. I said, look at the 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.400 size of Peach and programs are going like this, the 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.840 amount of you know, young kids coming in or going 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.319 like this, The supply is going like this. 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:04.360 Ever since COVID. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:05.920 So if the supply is going like this and the 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.560 game is going like this, where are we in five years? 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:09.240 Pretty scary? 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.320 Connor evers again on how and why he left. 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.080 I guess the big thing was just the the hours. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.840 You know, eventually, I guess that I'm twenty five, I 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.520 eventually want to have a family and kids. You know, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.160 it's not the same everywhere, but it is, you know, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.240 long hours, and I just wanted, I guess, more structure. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.400 I guess that's that was kind of the biggest thing 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.120 for me, Just wanting more structure, you know, the classic 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.040 cliche nine to five. I know people don't like that, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.280 but I do like I like structure like that. So 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.240 I guess the main thing was for me was the hours. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.240 I mean, I definitely do miss a lot. I mean, 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.240 I don't play as much golf, to be honest with you, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.040 as as I did. That's the one thing that I 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.280 do miss. I guess I'm kind of seeing it, you know, 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.559 from from two things, from two sides of it now, 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.559 But just the hours, I would say, to answer that question. 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.040 There here's Brad Snow of Raleigh, North Carolina. We heard 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.920 from him in part one. He's twenty nine, he graduated 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.280 from Mencia State and Golf Management. His internships were at 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.520 TPC Potomac, Durrell and Sleepy Hollow. He worked at Philly 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.920 Cricket Club for two summer seasons and a winter at 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.079 John's Island in Florida. He spent time as a head 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.520 fitter at Liberty National, and although he's still a Class 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.400 A professional, he's been out of the greengrass aspect of 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.600 the industry since twenty nineteen. He's now an online club retailer. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.040 His thoughts on a thirty to forty thousand dollars annual 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.040 salary and a work life imbalance. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.520 So through the internships. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.680 The PGA requires that all internships are paid through PGM, 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:40.840 which is awesome. 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:41.640 We're very lucky. 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.560 It kind of spans quite a spectrum though, once you 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.280 get into it, because I was lucky enough to have 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.800 a couple internships that had housing kind of built in. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.480 I lived at the gatehouse right as he first go 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.959 on property at Sleepy Holl. Me and two others or 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.480 another intern in an assistant lived right in the gatehouse there, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.600 which was incredible. 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.559 I mean I could I woke our. The short game 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:10.679 area was in my backyard. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.480 So you know, we hang out there, kind of true 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.840 bagger vance style, turn someone's headlights on, or you know, 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.000 take a lantern out after work, whatever, chips and balls 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:23.480 or whatever. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:29.480 So positions like that. You're lucky so you can kind 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:30.360 of save a little more. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.960 But I mean, yeah, once you're out looking at that 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:43.440 thirty to forty number, is is a nice number. You 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:48.200 hear a lot of numbers lower than that, But it's 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.480 really not what you think about when you're getting into that. 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.240 It's you might have your kind of site set a 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.320 little further down the road. You know, you got to 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.960 put in the time grind it out if you want 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:02.280 to make money in green Grass. 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:04.440 You're not doing it as an assistant. 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:10.120 So yeah, it's definitely you're looking at that thirty to 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.160 forty if you really want to grind it out and teach. 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:17.080 I wasn't much of. 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.800 An instructor myself, never really leaned into that side of 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.520 the game too much. But there are opportunities if you 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.120 want to really press it and grind you can make 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.840 a little extra. But it's always tight, that's for sure. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.600 From a couple of twenty somethings to Butch Harmon, whose 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.680 family has been entrenched in this industry for nearly a 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.320 century and can always be counted on for a frank 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.520 and informed perspective. People are leaving the industry at a 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:51.880 rapid rate. Schools are closing, you know. Clubs are pinching budgets, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.640 and when they do, they tend to like pinch from 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.880 the people component. You know, it's not going to be 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.360 on the quality of golf course itself. They look around 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.400 and they go, oh, well, we'll just we'll just only 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.200 keep one pro or one assistant, or just two assistants 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.920 instead of three. I mean, and younger people coming up 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.600 in this industry are saying, I got to work that 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.880 long for that and be required to do all of that, 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:16.440 why would I? 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.000 I'm out, I don't disagree with it. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.920 And now you have at the university level you have 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.520 the PGM programs, which is run by the PGA. A 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.400 lot of good programs around the country, have a very 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.560 good one here at UNLV where I live in Las Vegas. 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.160 I try and do a lot of work with them, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.240 but they're taught from a manual. They have a manual, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.520 a teaching manual, a business manual, this and that, And 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.400 they get upset with me because I always speak either 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.640 at their graduations or I get them out to my 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.160 places that once a year and talk to them and 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.200 I say, Tom, look the first thing you need to 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.800 do when you graduate from this course and I hold 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.080 their manual UF I said, this is what you're tested on. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.200 This manual right here. Throw that in the garbage because. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.280 You're never going to use it again because everything in 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.360 here is cookie cut. You're you're going to be a 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.280 club pro. You're going to be if you choose to 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:06.960 go here. You're going to do a lot more than 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.160 this test you just took from this book that tells 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:11.680 you how to do stuff, because you're going to have 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.320 to know how to deal with your members. You're going 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:14.760 to have to know how to deal with your ladies, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:19.040 golf Association, your junior clinics, all these stuff. You're going 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.520 to have to know that. And you hit the nail 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.400 on the head when you said that. In this day 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.880 and age, the club pro is asked to do a lot, 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.240 but is not compensated for all that he does, because 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.840 a good club can't function without a good head pro 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.600 and then his staff that he brings on. The bigger 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.520 the club, the bigger the staff, I mean I was 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.720 just at wing Foot a few weeks ago playing and 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.200 a member guests there, and I think Mike Gilmo must 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.680 have six or seven guys on his staff to take 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.640 care of all the stuff that take That's a big club. 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.840 It's thirty six holls, a lot of members. But even 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.960 on a smaller version of that, like you said a 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.480 minute ago, you know they don't want to because they're 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.879 paying Everybody used to be in the old days that 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.840 pay anything. You made all your money from me. First 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.440 of all, you started the year and get your club 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:05.240 storage money. 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:06.600 That helped you not. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.000 Have to go to the bank and buy a lot 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.360 of money to do your merchandising and so on so forth. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.399 You had your range programs, so that helped you had 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.480 to guarantee income. You don't have any of that anymore. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.480 You have whatever they're paying you. And the question I 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.160 would ask you and all the people that are watching that, 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.760 is that an incentive to do a good job. Maybe not, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.720 It's an incentive to exist, But. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:31.480 I don't know. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.360 Back to Cody Sinkler, Yeah. 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.200 Our PGM enrollment is down significantly. PGM programs are closing 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:45.120 clemsons I think closed. Florida State's closed. There are less 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.159 people that want to do this. It's because of the 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.639 work life balance we've gone so far this way and 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.840 the pay. I mean there are there are still jobs 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:01.000 paying twelve thirteen dollars an hour for atink golf profession 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.400 who we want to be in the PGM program, which 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.679 by the way, costs about ten grand to finish, and 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.280 we want them to have a bachelor's degree. 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.600 And there are jobs advertising twelve thirteen fourteen dollars an hour. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.400 So it's not just a work life balance. It's never 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.720 not about the money, and the numbers across the board 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.560 are indeed dire. Here's Brad Sniper. 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.280 Going into the program, we were told I'm not sure 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:28.919 if this is still one hundred percent true or even 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:30.800 if it was at the time, but going into the program, 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.120 we were told that within five years of gaining certification, 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.520 within five years fifty percent of PGA pros out of 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:39.679 the business. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.959 And keeping a running tab of issues. It's work life balance, money, 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.720 and then there's the free access to information or instruction. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.440 We've already heard from Kieran Kenwar of Mombai, India. She's 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.560 been in the US since two thousand and five. She 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.959 has a PhD in kinesiology. She's an LPGA Master instructor 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.560 and she's the chair of the golf department at Stanton 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.880