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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: L I T E dot com. When's the play start bill?

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Speaker 2: Second week in December?

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Speaker 1: I think no, No, I got we got tickets. We're

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Speaker 1: doing date night. You know, it just came up in here.

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Speaker 1: It came up in here, and we followed through. Turn

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Speaker 1: the machine on.

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Speaker 2: Phil, Sheine's on Steve. It always is.

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Speaker 1: It's the Crash Report. Here we go again, the report

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Speaker 1: filled the engineer. II feeling Phil, I'm feeling great.

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Speaker 3: By the time this airs, where we're a week or

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Speaker 3: two away from opening, I'm excited. I've got like seventy

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Speaker 3: five percent of my lines down. I know that that's

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Speaker 3: an important stat for you.

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Speaker 1: Hit me, hit me with just give me a line,

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Speaker 1: Give me a line. I saw your script was open

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Speaker 1: on your desk.

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Speaker 2: The yelling for a five thing. Yeah, it screwge.

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Speaker 3: He seems unaffected by the season, so even on Christmas Eve, Well, that's.

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Speaker 1: Your British accent. Hit me with it again.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, this is a bad time for you to

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Speaker 2: be doing this.

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Speaker 1: To hit me with it again.

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Speaker 3: He sits by the fire after uh, after working, goes

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Speaker 3: over the Femmes accounts.

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Speaker 1: Hum, right a little bit, Okay, I'm not buying work

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 2: You're not buying it because because it doesn't sound like fit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He wants you to sound like a cab driver site,

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Speaker 1: bring it man, He to be a from.

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Speaker 2: Braveheart more Harry Potter, More, Harry Potter one night?

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Speaker 1: Are we going to be there? Randall?

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Speaker 4: Uh, it's it's the Sunday performance, I believe the thirteenth.

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Speaker 1: So on the third, I don't care what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm not there on the third, greinh I want you

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Speaker 1: to just come in hard.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so scratch your previous notes about about all American

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Speaker 3: accents American currency.

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Speaker 2: You don't want that you want.

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Speaker 1: Full I did, but change my mind. I want you

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Speaker 1: to bring it now, and I want you to sound

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Speaker 1: like what I expect. A old timey English guy is

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Speaker 1: unwell Cockney Man. Yeah, yeah, joy today. Bye. The author

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Speaker 1: James Campbell, who's got a ton of books Man books

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Speaker 1: that would be a very of high interest to listeners.

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Speaker 1: James Campbell, he's a magazine writer for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but he wrote The Final Frontiersman, which if you haven't

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Speaker 1: read it, you've seen it around. I'm sure. He wrote

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Speaker 1: The Ghost Mountain Boys, which I just finished nights ago.

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Speaker 1: Here's the problem I run, and I always I'm always

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Speaker 1: honest with guests. Yeah, I didn't get to the Jaguar

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Speaker 1: book yet because I got sidetracked by Ghost Mountain Boys.

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure what I should think of that, but

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Speaker 5: thank you, I'm getting there.

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Speaker 1: It's like the stack, the stack. See, I got onto it,

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Speaker 1: and Randall's been on one too. I got out into

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Speaker 1: a whiskey whiskey to book kit. Kid. They spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in the Pacific. Well, it's a two books.

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Speaker 1: So I read The Battle of the Battle for Manila,

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Speaker 1: The Battle of Manila like an academic title that just

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Speaker 1: came out, and that got me all fired up about

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Speaker 1: World War two. And it's just about the Pacific theater

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Speaker 1: mile Man was European theater was so I know that. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but then I got to then I I just it

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Speaker 1: just kind of opened up this whole world of suffering. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just like it's like World War two with malaria, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, it's just like the disease.

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Speaker 1: Just stuff. I wasn't like I was familiar with all

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Speaker 1: his stories, you know, like people freezing their toes off

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Speaker 1: and everything. And then and of course I was aware.

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Speaker 1: You know, my my my wife's grandfather was a marine

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Speaker 1: on Ewo Jima, Right, I was aware. But anyways, I

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Speaker 1: got into the Battle of Manila, then I got into this,

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Speaker 1: and I never got to the damn Jaguar. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about. I'm like super interested in jaguars.

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Speaker 4: Sure, but it hasn't dissuaded you from continuing on to

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Speaker 4: the Jaguar book.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, Yeah. But The Ghost Mountain The Ghost

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Speaker 1: Mountain Boys, what you did? This one come out two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight. The Ghost Mountain Boys tells the tale

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Speaker 1: of the campaign and Papua New Guinea.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and a lot of them were from your country,

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Speaker 5: from southern Michigan. Yeah, lots of the guys Company G Company, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Comes them from the county I came from. And the

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Speaker 1: thing that uh, there's a couple of things that are

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Speaker 1: like about it that really stuck me. One just the

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Speaker 1: disease factor, Like most your casualties are tropical diseases.

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Speaker 5: Which MacArthur never took into consideration when he sent those

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Speaker 5: guys over the mountains. You know, they had they had dysentery,

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Speaker 5: they had jungle rot, they had trench foot, they had malaria, hookworm, hookworm,

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Speaker 5: and they he never considered.

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Speaker 1: That that would happen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, how could he not after having been in the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, it's just And then in the end you

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Speaker 1: realize they're taking these guys and I don't know if listeners,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've been on malaria medication. Yeah, Like malaria

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Speaker 1: medication leads to like its own little form of psychosis.

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Speaker 1: Like there's people that can't take it. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I mean it gives you like wild dreams, It can

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Speaker 1: send you into balts of depression, especially the stuff they

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Speaker 1: used to use. They take these guys and like there's

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Speaker 1: this one guy that you follow through the book. He's

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Speaker 1: writing all these loving letters with his wife, he's got

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Speaker 1: kids waiting at home. Yeah. Then they go to treat

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Speaker 1: them for malaria and they dose them so heavy with

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Speaker 1: this drug. They didn't understand the psychological effects. They start

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Speaker 1: dosing them with this drug and shoots himself.

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Speaker 5: In the adaburin psychosis it was called. So he was

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Speaker 5: the division surgeon, a guy named Major Simon Warmanhoven, and

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Speaker 5: he was an amazing guy. So I'd finished the book

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Speaker 5: completely ready to turn it into my publisher, and Simon

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Speaker 5: warm Warmenhoven's two daughters happened to find my number and

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Speaker 5: they called me up and they said, I want to

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Speaker 5: send you the love letters that my dad sent to

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Speaker 5: my mom from Papua New Guinea. Would you be willing

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Speaker 5: to look at him? And I said, yeah, I'd love

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Speaker 5: to see him. So I read all one hundred love

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Speaker 5: letters and then I called my publisher and I said,

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Speaker 5: stop the press.

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Speaker 1: These are two beautiful lts.

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Speaker 5: I have to completely rewrite the book and write in

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Speaker 5: this character and write in his love letters because they're

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Speaker 5: just so heart wrenching. And my publisher gave me an

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Speaker 5: extra two months to their credit.

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Speaker 1: But that's not much. I wrote hurriedly.

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Speaker 5: But can you imagine that the first of all the

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Speaker 5: courage of his daughters, because obviously, you know you there's

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Speaker 5: a stigma attached.

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Speaker 1: To the you know, to to shooting yourself.

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Speaker 5: But it was adebrit psychosis and they had a lot

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Speaker 5: of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I didn't know him, but like you

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Speaker 1: look at the transition and even say his last letter

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Speaker 1: home and he's on the treatment, his last letter home

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Speaker 1: is like I try not to let it happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I have the blues. That's why I haven't been writing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and he had to.

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Speaker 1: He had.

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Speaker 5: He was in Brisbane at the end, just outside of

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Speaker 5: Brisbane at the at the thirty second Division Hospital, and

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Speaker 5: he was caring for all these men, you know, who'd

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Speaker 5: been wounded in battle and who had various diseases and

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Speaker 5: tropical diseases, and I mean he was just overwhelmed in

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Speaker 5: addition to taking Adebrant and having Adebritan psychosis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a just a horrible story. You know,

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Speaker 1: nothing that came out reading this and reading that book

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Speaker 1: about the Battle for Manila and also just documentaries I've

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Speaker 1: been seeing and stuff. Is it seems like but we're

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Speaker 1: kind of running out of them now. It seems like

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Speaker 1: as a lot of veterans from World War Two got

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Speaker 1: to a certain age, they became more ready to discuss.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to call them like what would what

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Speaker 1: would be regarded as war crimes, but I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to condemn it. But it became like later in life,

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Speaker 1: like I watched this, watch this series, and they're now

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Speaker 1: is watching these old guys being like they're talking about

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Speaker 1: the the concentration camps, and they're like anyone that worked

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Speaker 1: at a concentration camp, we just lined them up, shot them.

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Speaker 1: And guys in here they're like guys that are talking

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Speaker 1: about stuff later or whatever. It just seems like for

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Speaker 1: a long time, a lot of that stuff was just

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Speaker 1: not mentioned. They don't get their day in court. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And now it seems like more people are like, no, man,

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Speaker 1: I mean we didn't we didn't deal with prisoners, or

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Speaker 1: we don't like to deal with prison Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean you're talking about the wounded Japanese. They would

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Speaker 5: just stick them with their bayonets. And of course they

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Speaker 5: didn't talk about that till a lot later. But a

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Speaker 5: lot of those guys I contacted, ultimately contacted about eighty

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Speaker 5: guys that fought on the island in New Guinea, and

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Speaker 5: I interviewed a lot of them, and a lot of

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Speaker 5: them I drove over to Michigan, you know, to interview

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Speaker 5: these guys and typical story. You know, they never told

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Speaker 5: their stories about World War Two. I think James Bradley

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Speaker 5: in Flags of Our Father said, they came home and

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Speaker 5: they got on with living. You know, they didn't want

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Speaker 5: to remember, so they, you know, they deliberately just repressed

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Speaker 5: this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I started talking to.

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Speaker 5: Them, and initially they'd tell funny stories, you know, and

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Speaker 5: I'd go to their Old Timers Division meeting and they'd

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Speaker 5: tell jokes and listen to bad poke music, you know,

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Speaker 5: and play cards all night. But slowly they started to

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Speaker 5: like reveal stuff, and then it was like it was

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Speaker 5: like this.

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Speaker 1: Gusher of emotion.

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Speaker 5: You can imagine after you know, fifty years, is trapped

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Speaker 5: inside and you know, they never talked about it. And

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Speaker 5: sometimes their wives would call me up and say, you

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Speaker 5: know so and so, you gotta you can't interview him anymore.

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Speaker 5: He's he has nightmares, you kid, and it's haunting him.

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Speaker 5: And I said, okay, that's the last thing in the

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Speaker 5: world I want to do, you know, is put him

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Speaker 5: through this again. But then they would call back and

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Speaker 5: they would say, no, man, I gotta talk about this

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Speaker 5: is the first time I've ever talked about this in

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Speaker 5: my life. My kids don't even know these stories. I

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Speaker 5: have to keep talking. So it was Yeah, it was

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Speaker 5: pretty it was pretty emotional.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. You know. I don't like you know,

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Speaker 1: I usually I don't like any well, not any I

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Speaker 1: think the only Yeah. But I'm a Bob Service fan.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, sure, I love Bob.

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Speaker 1: He's a poet, is a poet. Yeah, and Cladie Bayley

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Speaker 1: Cladi Bailey used to dude wrote, Yeah, that's the first

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Speaker 1: time we had read a poem possibly quite possibly Bob Hartman. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Bob Hartman, Right, this is a veteran grand rapid. Did

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Speaker 1: he write this much after the war? Yeah he did,

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Speaker 1: he did. Okay. I laid him down by the bend

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Speaker 1: in the stream and he erected it across at his head.

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Speaker 1: His funeral song was a cockatoo's scream, as if they

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Speaker 1: knew my buddy was dead. I've even the score, yes,

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Speaker 1: a do a dozen times over, but no matter, the

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Speaker 1: distance between my mind wanders yet, and I'll never forget

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Speaker 1: his grave by the bend in the stream. Yeah, it's poignant,

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Speaker 1: it's got a Bob Service.

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Speaker 5: It does have a Bober These poets.

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Speaker 1: That don't even bother Ryman. It's just that.

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Speaker 5: Bob, Bob Hartman is the same guy that said if

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Speaker 5: I owned New Guinea and I owned Hell, I would

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Speaker 5: live in Hell brant out New Guinea.

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Speaker 1: But you just got back from New Guinea. I just

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Speaker 1: got back here. So what we're gonna get don't worry

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Speaker 1: about this. We're gonna get to this jaguar. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: get to the jaguar situation. I love talking about New Guinea.

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Speaker 1: But what were you doing there? Now?

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Speaker 5: So two things?

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Speaker 1: You help me understand something?

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Speaker 5: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Why do What is the difference between saying Papa New

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Speaker 1: Guinea and saying New Guinea.

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Speaker 5: So the entire island is called New Guinea. Papa New

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Speaker 5: Guinea is a separate is a separate nation on the

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Speaker 5: eastern half, formerly an Australian colony German colony. Once upon

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Speaker 5: it it was called Kaiser Willielm's Land way back when.

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Speaker 5: And the other side is owned by is part of Indonesia,

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Speaker 5: and that's called West Papua. So the whole island is

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Speaker 5: called New Guinea.

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Speaker 1: Okay, no idea, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 5: So I've been going there since nineteen eighty nine. My

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Speaker 5: brother and I first went there on a you know,

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Speaker 5: you know, young men's adventure or misadventure.

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Speaker 1: But somewhere in that took my wife there for our honeymoon.

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Speaker 1: By the way, she got malaria. How romantic.

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Speaker 5: Her parents wanted her to ditch me so fast, so

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Speaker 5: fortunately she did in three daughters later. But I discovered

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Speaker 5: for the first time I didn't even know the story. Okay,

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Speaker 5: I didn't even know the story of the war.

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Speaker 1: In Papua New Guinea.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, So in two thousand and six, I repreat

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Speaker 5: repeated the track that the Ghost Mountain Boys did for

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Speaker 5: the first time since World War Two, and I became

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Speaker 5: interested in the villages and just the World War two history.

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Speaker 5: So on the most recent trip, we brought in people

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Speaker 5: there in the villages, isolated villages, they die, skin infections,

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Speaker 5: you know, they're dying and malarious. We brought in four

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars worth of medicines that the one health clinic

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Speaker 5: can you know, can give out to the people. You know,

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Speaker 5: they have a little cut. You know that they eventually

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Speaker 5: lose their leg or lose their life, so you know,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't have to be dramatic stuff, but medicines to

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Speaker 5: help them and that the Ghost Mountain Trail used to

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Speaker 5: be called the Kapa Kapa Trail because there was a

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Speaker 5: village called Gaba Gaba. The soldiers couldn't pronounce it. It became

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Speaker 5: Kappa Kapa. It was called the Kappa Kapa Trail, and

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Speaker 5: we want that to be a national historic trail like

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Speaker 5: the Kokota Trail.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever heard of it.

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Speaker 5: That's where the Australians fought the Japanese on the island

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Speaker 5: in New Guinea, on the Kokota Trail. And now five

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Speaker 5: thousand trekkers come every summer to Papua New Guinea to

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Speaker 5: trek the Kokoda Trail where they're you know, grandfathers or

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Speaker 5: great grandfathers or great uncles fought the Japanese.

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Speaker 1: So it's a big deal.

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Speaker 5: So we want to try to bring Americans over to

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Speaker 5: Papua New Guinea to walk this trail. It's twenty one days,

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Speaker 5: it's over the own Stanley Mountains.

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Speaker 1: It's tough. Yeah, you'll run that song the bitch what's that? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you run it?

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Speaker 2: How many miles is that?

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Speaker 1: One hundred and thirty miles?

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Speaker 5: But it is straight up and straight down, straight up.

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Speaker 1: You know you go up to nine?

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Speaker 4: Are you a runner a little bit by a little bit,

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Speaker 4: like one hundred miles at a time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, how what's the elevation when you say up and down?

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Speaker 5: Well, the plane we tried to find on this trip

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Speaker 5: was at about ten thousand feet, but don't Stanley's get

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Speaker 5: up to about twelve thousand. But you're going through solid jungle,

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Speaker 5: I mean absolute solid jungle. I remember, I don't want

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Speaker 5: to go straight here. But I was reporting in two

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Speaker 5: thousand and six for National Public Radio and I was

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Speaker 5: doing I was calling them and doing interviews with them

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Speaker 5: from the jungle, and my first interview.

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Speaker 1: I was late for.

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Speaker 5: So I grabbed the SAT phone and I wandered out

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Speaker 5: into the jungle and I did my interview, and then

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Speaker 5: I thought, I don't know where the hell I am.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea where I am. You lost? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I lost my direction that fast.

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Speaker 5: I was probably like forty feet.

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Speaker 1: You're not being deliberate, no.

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Speaker 6: Not being delivered at all, And so I'm screaming, you know,

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Speaker 6: my lungs. And fortunately one of the villagers, one or

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Speaker 6: one of the carriers that was with us happened to

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Speaker 6: find me.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise, who knows is there.

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Speaker 7: When you say trail. Yeah, I can have a lot

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Speaker 7: of different definitions. So at this point, what is it

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Speaker 7: like just a regular old hiker follow.

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Speaker 5: No, it's like when you want to like a deer

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Speaker 5: trail or a rabbit trail through the woods. And the

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Speaker 5: people of New Guinea are the most like physically fit

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Speaker 5: people you've ever seen. It's like the people of the

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Speaker 5: Andes or something. They they they live in the mountains,

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Speaker 5: so they're accustomed to it. They just walk straight up

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Speaker 5: and straight down. No National Park switchbacks. So yeah, I

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Speaker 5: mean it's tough, but if you ever want to come in.

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Speaker 1: You big, you can't run it, so you need to

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Speaker 1: organize like one of them races. Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure with the recent explosion and participation in these

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Speaker 7: endurance races, you could very easily get that's for people

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Speaker 7: to go and fast hike, run you're that track.

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Speaker 1: Hadn't even considered it.

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Speaker 5: But just to finish the story, we were my part

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Speaker 5: my co partner in Australia found a plane called the

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Speaker 5: Flying Dutchman, you know, the ode to the michigan Ers

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Speaker 5: at ten thousand feet. He found it last year and

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Speaker 5: it hadn't.

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Speaker 1: Been seen since. I think like nineteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 5: So we were taking a small group up into the

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Speaker 5: mountains to identify the plane, see the plane, touch the plane,

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Speaker 5: and retell.

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Speaker 1: The story for the remains in there. Still no, they're gone.

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Speaker 1: They've been taken. They were taken out.

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Speaker 5: I think in night. I can't remember the date, but

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Speaker 5: the plane. Plane has this really poignant story about it

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Speaker 5: crashed and I think six of the guys were killed.

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Speaker 5: Eight fifteen of the guys were too injured to get out,

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Speaker 5: but two parties tried to make it out. One party

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Speaker 5: march to the north coast. That took him about thirty

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Speaker 5: days to get through the jungle, and another party marched

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Speaker 5: a guy from named Ed Holloman from just outside of

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Speaker 5: Grand Rapids, Michigan, found safety after about thirty days. And

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Speaker 5: they tried to court martial him for leaving the plane

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Speaker 5: and he did, I mean, he saved these guys' lives.

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Speaker 1: And it was well, what happened to the guys went

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Speaker 1: of the other direction.

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Speaker 5: The other guy they they actually two of the guys drowned.

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Speaker 5: They tried to they tried to ride logs on the

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Speaker 5: river to the north coast, and two of the guys drowned.

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Speaker 5: The other two of the guys. The other two guys

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Speaker 5: made it to safety, tried to get a rescue party

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Speaker 5: to come back to save the guys on the plane.

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Speaker 5: The rescue party stopped one day short because they ran

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Speaker 5: out of food, and ultimately all the guys on the

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Speaker 5: plane died. So in fact, the chaplain died in the

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Speaker 5: arms of the villagers who found the plane on January seventh,

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Speaker 5: nineteen forty three. So it's yeah, it's really it's a

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Speaker 5: terrible story.

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Speaker 1: So what was the plane, what was it? What were

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Speaker 1: they doing at the time.

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Speaker 5: So you read about the Ghost Mountain boys who walked

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Speaker 5: over the mountains. They were trying they'd found usable airfields

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Speaker 5: on the north coast of Popping the Guinea near the

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Speaker 5: battlefield of Buna, and they were trying to fly the

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Speaker 5: guys over instead of having them walk. And they were

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Speaker 5: probably trying to punch holes in the clouds because they

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Speaker 5: hadn't they hadn't really flown over the own stanleys very much.

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Speaker 5: They called it the hump like in Burma. They called

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Speaker 5: it the Hump, and the you know that plane crashed

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Speaker 5: up there at ten thousand feet, so, but they were

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Speaker 5: the intention was to fly him over to the battlefield.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, but we have a transition into Jaguars. That's

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Speaker 1: why you're here, right, Yeah, sure, but I love talking

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Speaker 1: about Papa the Guinea and the Ghost Mountain Boys. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be a gradual transition because's two things so

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Speaker 1: so so. James's books are are for reading. Ours of cooking.

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Speaker 1: We got just letting people know here. So we took

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Speaker 1: our two cookbooks, our Meat Eater, Fish and Game Cookbook

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Speaker 1: and our Outdoor Cookbook and made like a gift box.

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Speaker 1: You can get both of them right here. This two

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Speaker 1: for one great gift item we signed. We signed a

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Speaker 1: whole mountain of.

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Speaker 8: The only place you can get to sign ones is

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Speaker 8: on the mediater website.

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Speaker 1: Not true, where else you get in the stores retail stores. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we just signed a whole mountain of them. And then

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, it's a very it's a very economical way

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Speaker 1: of getting both our books for someone for Christmas. I'm

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Speaker 1: not even going to get into ff old trucks. But

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Speaker 1: look at this. Can that make you want to get

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Speaker 1: a calendar? The hell of a calendar? Now get into that.

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Speaker 1: The other plug is this. Well. While back on the show,

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Speaker 1: we ran an episode of something called blood Trails. It

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Speaker 1: was about that dude who was turkey hunting and got

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Speaker 1: shot in the back while he's turkey hunting, and they've

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Speaker 1: like interviewed all these guys. They've definitely interviewed whoever did it,

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Speaker 1: but they have yet to how many years has been,

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Speaker 1: like seventeen years, eighteen years, something like that. So we

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Speaker 1: got a whole series out now called Blood Trails, a podcast,

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Speaker 1: and it's about hunting and fishing related like murders, cold cases, mysteries.

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Speaker 1: It's really good. Jordan Sillers has been doing a phenomenal

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Speaker 1: job on it, So check out and subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: Blood Trails podcast feed. It turned out. I'm very proud

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Speaker 1: of it. It turned out very very good. It's well worth

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Speaker 1: to listen. He did a phenomenal job. And rather like

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Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of stuff. It's like some

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Speaker 1: dude will go read like a Wikipedia entry or read

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Speaker 1: somebody else's book and then they'll make like a podcast

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Speaker 1: where they basically like regurgitate some stuff they just read. It.

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Speaker 1: It's like interviews. It's interviews with it's interviews with investigators,

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Speaker 1: it's interviews with victims, families. It's it's very well done,

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Speaker 1: like a ton of original reporting in it. It's a

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Speaker 1: great series, all right. Jaguars Jaguars? Is this stuff good? Here? Phil? Yep?

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Speaker 1: How many jaguars are floating around in the world right now?

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Speaker 5: Well, there's a big discrepancy between the numbers. One number

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Speaker 5: is sixty three thousand, the other number is seven one

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Speaker 5: hundred and seventy three thousands. Most jaguar biologists think the

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Speaker 5: lower number is the more accurate number. But about eighty

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Speaker 5: percent of those jaguars, let's say sixty three thousand, let's

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Speaker 5: say one hundred thousand are in the Amazon or the

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Speaker 5: Pontinal of Brazil. Outside that, so in the IUCN, the

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Speaker 5: jaguar is considered threatened or near threatened. But if you

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Speaker 5: eliminate the Amazon and the Pontinal, they're considered endangered or

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Speaker 5: critically endangered.

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Speaker 1: Which would be true of a lot of wildlife species.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you eliminate their core range. Yeah, good point.

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Speaker 1: Then it looks grim. It looks grim. Yeah.

436
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 5: However, you know, with the corridor, there's a reinvestment of

437
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 5: time and effort into the corridor. There's something called the

438
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 5: twenty thirty Roadmap that a lot of the environmental organizations

439
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 5: have signed onto including Panthera WCS, lots of other IUCN,

440
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 5: and by twenty thirty they want to they want to

441
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 5: solidify thirty jaguar conservation unit and connect thirty more potential

442
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 5: jaguar units. So there's a big across Latin America and

443
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 5: South America. There's kind of this new appreciation of what

444
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 5: the jaguar represents.

445
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, explain their historic range a little bit. And while

446
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: you're doing that, can you touch on do you believe

447
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: Coronado ran into jaguars, like way up in Kansas?

448
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 5: First of all, Yeah, I do believe Coronado ran into jaguars.

449
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that.

450
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 5: When was Coronado what was the date, late fifteen hundreds, definitely, Yeah,

451
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 5: I think jaguars were pretty much spread across much of

452
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 5: the United.

453
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: Because he talks about he talks about leopards and he

454
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: talks about lions. Yeah, and you're like the lions, mountain lions.

455
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: But then people are like, what in the hell is

456
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: he talking about when he mentioned seeing leopards.

457
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I do think up until up

458
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 5: until probably nineteen hundred, they were in you know, Colorado,

459
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 5: in California and West Texas, Alabama, Louisiana. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

460
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 5: you think that.

461
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Alabama and Louisiana you think legit.

462
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 5: I think it's legit. I mean you look at their head,

463
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 5: look at the habitat. I mean that's the that's the

464
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 5: ideal habitat for a jaguar until what year, up until

465
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 5: maybe nineteen hundred, maybe maybe mid eighteen hundreds. But their range,

466
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 5: their range is now five thousand latitude and a miles

467
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 5: from southern Arizona. Right now, there's one jaguar roaming the

468
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 5: mountains of southern Arizona.

469
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: The US is usually good for like y know, you

470
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: wanted to write.

471
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 5: His name is co Chiese and he was discovered in

472
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 5: I think late twenty twenty three. But so all the

473
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 5: way down to the Eberra in northern Argentina. But of

474
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 5: course once how you say that word?

475
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, the eber Era, No, I've been there. Oh have

476
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: you thought of Iberra fish down there? Oh? Really no,

477
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: the Ibera wetlands.

478
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 5: Well maybe it is, I've called it Iberra. Well, well

479
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 5: we'll ask a Spanish expert, I suppose. But so in

480
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 5: where they're actually doing a reintroduction of jaguars now, but.

481
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: That's like near the that's where like that that deadly

482
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: Triangle Paraguay, Uruguay. Yes, exactly, it all come together. It's

483
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: like kind of a little bit of a lawless.

484
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 5: What kind of fishing were you doing down there, Golden Dradoan. Yeah,

485
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 5: so once upon a time, yeah, they I mean, they

486
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 5: migrated obviously over the Burying land Bridge like a million

487
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 5: years ago, and then they saw a bunch of ice

488
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 5: in front of them, so they they they stayed for

489
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 5: many generations in kind of the Yukon and Yukon territories.

490
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 5: And then as that as that ice began to began

491
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 5: to melt during the place the scene warm ups, I mean,

492
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 5: what whether like twenty or something like that, the jaguars

493
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 5: started moving south, moved into Canada, then into Montana and uh,

494
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 5: you know the grasslands of North and South Dakota and Kansas,

495
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 5: and then continue to move down to you know, almost

496
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 5: the tip of South America.

497
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 8: So they didn't evolve as like a warm weather tropical species.

498
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 5: No, they're they're they're complete generalists. You know, they can

499
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,239
Speaker 5: they can live anywhere in it like a mountain lion,

500
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 5: like a mountain lion. Or so I was down in

501
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 5: southern Bolivia in the Grand Chaco the Grand Chaco is

502
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 5: like parched country, brittle parched country, and the the the

503
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 5: jaguars thrive there, really, Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. They thrive

504
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 5: in the Sierra Madres of Mexico, they thrive in the

505
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 5: in the Madraan Sky Islands of of Arizona. They're they're

506
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 5: really they're remarkable creatures.

507
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know there's a picture. I have this book

508
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: called Candid Critters, and it's like it's like influential trail

509
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: cam photos. Yeah, and there's I think at the time

510
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: was maybe the only known photo taking an Arizona of

511
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: a jaguar standing in the snow in the Wachuka Mountains.

512
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: I think, Okay, yeah, you're saying that that's not a

513
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: problem for the jaguar. Well, I don't.

514
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 5: I don't know about snow. Snow might be pushing it.

515
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 5: But he was obviously not she but likely he was

516
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 5: obviously in the Wachuka Mountains. You know, you get snow

517
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 5: there and you know, in late April. So but I'm

518
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 5: familiar with that photo.

519
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen a bunch of tracks, Jaguar tracks, not

520
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: in the US. One time we weren't remember we were

521
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: we were It was in Guyana, and we were there's

522
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: this big sand bar where the turtles were, oh yeah, nesting.

523
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: So we went there with native people to dig turtle

524
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: eggs and you could see where the jaguars were digging

525
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: the turtle eggs out and probably also hunting the turtles

526
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: when they come out of the water. Yeah. Right, We

527
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: go back to our camp and then a couple of

528
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: guys went back to the sandbar to take a bath

529
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: and there's tracks all over. I was dying to see one.

530
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: I was dying to see one. Yeah, there's tracks all over.

531
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: They turn around and go right back to take a bath,

532
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: and they're like, as soon as we got there's jaguars

533
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: standing on the grave bar. Missed I'm not kidding. I

534
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: missed it by twenty minutes, just because you didn't want

535
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: to take a bath. Yeah, yeah, whatever. But no, no,

536
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: I've never let eyes on one. Man, I would.

537
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're incredible.

538
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: You've no doubt laid eyes on Yeah. What was the

539
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: first time you saw one in the Pontinal.

540
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 5: So the Pontinal is kind of like Kruger National Park

541
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 5: of Brazil, So the jaguars there have become habituated to people.

542
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 5: And this was during this was during COVID, so there

543
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 5: were almost no other tourists, but we were.

544
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: We were on the Quiaba.

545
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 5: River in motoring, motoring down the river into one of

546
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 5: the tributaries, and all you know, we're all looking at

547
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 5: the banks of the river, and all of a sudden

548
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 5: I spotted I spotted one, you know, kind of lounging

549
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 5: in the sand underneath the tree. And just then the guide,

550
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 5: you know, the boat captain and guide also also saw

551
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 5: that jaguar. And I'll never forget he was like barely whispered,

552
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: he said, Onsa And you know, Panthera on is is

553
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 5: you know the name for the jaguar.

554
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: What's that? What is that word?

555
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 5: So Panthera is the genus and then Osa, I mean,

556
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 5: Onsa is the is it?

557
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: Would it be the family name? I'm not sure, but man,

558
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: what does that word mean? Jaguar?

559
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 5: So he just said, he just said jaguar, and all

560
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 5: he had to do was whisper it.

561
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: And man, my whole body was and this hue.

562
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 5: We we we anchored the boat just outside, just outside

563
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 5: the bank, the river bank, and all of a sudden,

564
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 5: this jaguar rose, just this absolutely enormous jaguar, absolutely beautiful

565
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 5: and came to the river to drink, and he was

566
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 5: just unperturbed. You know, it wasn't it wasn't like he

567
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 5: he moved quickly in I think in the book I

568
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 5: describe its something like music. I mean, like every part

569
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 5: of his body just operated so beautifully. And he stood

570
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 5: there drinking and then he looked up at us, and

571
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 5: then he walked kind of broadside to us down the river,

572
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 5: and it was just I mean, it was magnificent.

573
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like a like having not seen one,

574
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 1: I'm just fascinated by him. And it is just a

575
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: different crater man.

576
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 5: Even people who's just a how do they compare it

577
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 5: to a mountain lion?

578
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, as are the sizes a burlier.

579
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 5: Right, So I think the biggest there I was with

580
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 5: this this Brazilian trapper he traps in you know, collars jaguars.

581
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 5: The biggest one he's I think trapped in collars one hundred.

582
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 5: His name is Joe rs May and he's famous and

583
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 5: he's trapped about three hundred you know, maybe one hundred

584
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 5: and twenty jaguars. The biggest one he's ever trapped.

585
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: Was three hundred pounds.

586
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 5: Wow, you know, like a you know like a lioness

587
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 5: in Africa, but in the in the Pontinal they grown big.

588
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 5: In the Amazon they grow them big. But you know,

589
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 5: if you get one in northern Mexico or say one

590
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 5: in Arizona, they're going to be maybe one hundred and

591
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 5: thirty or one hundred and forty.

592
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: Paums like a lion.

593
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, like, yeah, exactly like a lion. So they're much

594
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 5: much smaller, same species, but just much much smaller. And

595
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 5: I don't know if it has to do with habitat

596
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 5: or food. I mean, jaguars eat like eighty five different species,

597
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 5: everything from frog to skunks, you know, to have a

598
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 5: line's but I think Teddy Roosevelt he he hunted jaguars

599
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 5: and the Pontinal with his with his son Kermit, And

600
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: I think there's one account he said, uh, Kermit shot

601
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 5: a jaguar with a four h five Winchester and it

602
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 5: was as big as a small male, you know, African lion.

603
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 5: So I imagine that was three hundred pounds or maybe even more.

604
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 8: Do they have like uh, leopards and tigers in India? Say,

605
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 8: do they have a reputation for attacking people or not?

606
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: Really?

607
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 5: That's that's the thing, just almost no accounts of unprovoked attacks.

608
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 5: And Alan Rabinowitz, the guy I wrote about, called them

609
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: the reluctant warrior. He said they were much much more

610
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 5: comfortable kind of eluding man. And there's a biologist down

611
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 5: in Brazil who said and was never part of their

612
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 5: prey template for one thing.

613
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: And also there's something.

614
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 5: Called the t Griyadas, which was the jaguar craze which

615
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 5: Jackie o' nassas set off when she stepped out of

616
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 5: a limousine in a knee length, double breasted Somali leopard

617
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 5: coat and she started this this fashion craze for spotted

618
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 5: cat accessories.

619
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: So you make me like Kennedy.

620
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 5: Yeah. So so what happened during the Tigriyadas maybe is

621
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 5: like what happened during to Grizzly. What is the word,

622
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 5: it's t I g t gre yadas.

623
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the jigger craze. Yeah, And and that set off

624
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: a market hunting campaign huge in the sixties.

625
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 5: In in the sixties to nineteen seventy five when Sighte's

626
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 5: finally stepped in and to eliminate the trafficking. But from

627
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty two to nineteen seventy five, one hundred and

628
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 5: eighty thousand jaguars were killed in Brazil alone for the

629
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 5: fashion maybe not all for the fashion industry, but for

630
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 5: far part of the fashion industry. More jaguars than we

631
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 5: have now were in total during what years.

632
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty three to nineteen seventy five, during the day

633
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: they were not running a quota program.

634
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 5: They were not running no, everybody was out trying to

635
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: kill jaguars. Alan Rabinowitz said they had the dollar sign

636
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 5: on the back right next to the bullseye.

637
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: What was at that time? What kind of money was

638
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: a jaguar hide like? It must have been extraordinary to

639
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: drive that level of commitment, because it's not like they're

640
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: like hanging out now Falcon.

641
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, right, maybe two hundred dollars, but two hundred

642
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 5: dollars for you know, I hate to say lowly, but

643
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 5: two hundred dollars for someone living in a village in

644
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 5: Bolivia or jag Or or Brazil is a lot of money.

645
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 5: And they killed them like snakes, that's.

646
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: What George Schaller said. They just killed them like snakes,

647
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: even though but mostly all black market.

648
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 5: All black market. Yeah, they until side stepped in in

649
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five to try to shut down the traffic,

650
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 5: which they did to a certain extent. Yeah, there was

651
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 5: a there was a lively black market in Jaguar Pelts.

652
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 1: If you look over your left shoulder, you see that

653
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: that's a bobcat right there. Okay, right now, here's an

654
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: interesting thing about side's and spotted cats. So that's from Texas.

655
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: Uh okay, yeah, in Texas there's no close season on bobcats.

656
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: Bobcats are non game, no close season on bobcats, no

657
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: bag limit on bobcats. Wow. Part of it is because

658
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: texts those south like Texas bobcats aren't valuable. Okay, Like

659
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: a bobcat up here, oh yeah, I mean mean about

660
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: cat up here could be like five six, seven hundred bucks,

661
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: sure right about cat from certain areas like high Desert

662
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: country could be one thousand dollars. But those cats are

663
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: effectively valueless. So there's not like a huge push on it.

664
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is you haven't you haven't in Texas.

665
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: Here's an animal. It's non game, no close season, no

666
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: bag limit. But you can't move that cat out of

667
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: Texas without a site's tag. And you'd be like, well,

668
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: why the state doesn't even manage them? And it's because

669
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: it's because.

670
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 5: Like spotted cats in general.

671
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so any spotted cat is going to have regulatory

672
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: pressure on it because it's so easy to be like,

673
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: oh no, that's not that. Do you follow what I'm saying.

674
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: So it's like like they're trying to regulate the movement

675
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: of spotted cats because there's so many imperiled spotted cats.

676
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: They just want to be that if it's a spotted cat,

677
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: it's a painted even if it's worthless. Yeah, if it's

678
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: got spots, we just don't know what it is. Is

679
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: it like is it that or is it a snow leopard? Yeah,

680
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: you know or whatever?

681
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, Well you've had Dan Floris on you know that,

682
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 5: and you know his book American Serengetti. He talks about,

683
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 5: you know, what they did to predators, you know in

684
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 5: Colonial America, and jaguars were one of the things they

685
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 5: just you know, they just shot.

686
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: Would they would they poison jaguars too? Yeah?

687
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 5: I think they poison all predators. You know, wolves, bear,

688
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 5: coyotes in in Brazil, in you know, South America. Sure,

689
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 5: they used to poison them, poison them all the time.

690
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 8: You mentioned Colonial America, are are do you think black

691
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 8: jaguars and colonial America are responsible for the continued sightings

692
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 8: of black like claim sightings of black panthers wherever in.

693
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 5: Southern the southern United that's interesting there, there's the black

694
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 5: jaguars only come from one place?

695
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: Is that right?

696
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: To one place? Like the colonists would not have Taylor

697
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: Sledge in Clay's dead or listening in the entire state

698
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: of Mississippi. I was listening right now. I don't let

699
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: you know, but they have on their hands right now.

700
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 1: Black jaguar. Who does he's just roaming or it's a cat,

701
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: it's a house cat. There was just a picture that

702
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: our buddy in Mississippi sent us, and he's like, he's

703
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: like the whole state's panties are on fire. And you

704
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: kind of look and you're like, maybe it's like a

705
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: house cat. It's like a guy has a picture of

706
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: a cat standing on the side of the road. But

707
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: it's also people.

708
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 5: Like black mountain lions.

709
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but everybody knows there's no such now that

710
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: now that words out, there is no never has been.

711
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as a black panther. A black

712
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: panther is a wet panther. So then the black Panther.

713
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: Crowd hit on the thing that there is melanism in jaguars,

714
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: so Taylor's sledge was staying. He even had a veterinarian

715
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: tell him it's got to be a melanistic jaguar in

716
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: Mississippi terrorizing Mississippi, as.

717
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 5: We well, maybe that's the second jaguar we got coaches

718
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 5: in Arizona and whatever. The black jaguar is named the Mississippi.

719
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 5: But there's a place in Brazil called the Sahavo. It's

720
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 5: it's c E r R A d oh, but they

721
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 5: pronounced the double r like ha though, in the Sahavo,

722
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 5: and that's the only place that black jaguars there.

723
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: So there's like a melanistic est jaguars. Is he like black?

724
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: Or is he got like dark spots? No, I have a.

725
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 5: Pulled off a picture, Oh, pull up of your friends.

726
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: I can read picture. I'll put it up there like

727
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: they show fill.

728
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: More serious theater, you know. Quit. Yeah, I'm gonna get

729
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: a guy that's just pummeling pictures on that screen.

730
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 8: Stop like jet black ones, but also like spots really

731
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 8: barely like yeah.

732
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 4: So it's like, uh, it's it's like those black bears,

733
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 4: you know, like the the spirit bears.

734
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: Or whatever in Canada.

735
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 4: It's it's like a very localized expression of some sort

736
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 4: of gene.

737
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: Yeah that must be. Yeah, I don't that. I expect

738
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: that's what it is.

739
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can see that.

740
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: Take that back. I don't think you should do that, okay,

741
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: because some places I've been on they do it, and

742
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: it gets a little anoying. Like every damn thing you

743
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: talk about up on the screen.

744
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm glad you've had a complete one eight in the last.

745
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 4: Your original instincts for correct feeling.

746
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Don't put it up. What was the what was the

747
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: give me some of the like of the and let's

748
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: say let's take meso America, okay, familiar like like Mane culture,

749
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: different meso American cultures, pre Contacts or pre Columbian cultures.

750
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: What was there? Is there a way to generalize about,

751
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: like what was their understanding of the animal, like like

752
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: the Amerindian indigenous understanding of the animal? Was it like

753
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: a prize thing to get? Was it like what you know,

754
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: if you had to sort of typify the relationship.

755
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 5: They worshiped it, I mean metaphysically, there was like no

756
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 5: more important animal, but it was it represented to those people.

757
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 5: What say the grizzly bear represented to you know, northern

758
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 5: Native American tribes. It was part of their religion, part

759
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 5: of their art, part of their architecture, part of their iconography.

760
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 5: They absolutely worshiped it. The Mayans believed that the jaguar

761
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: escorted the sun from day tonight and back today. The

762
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 5: Olmecs would would would mutilate their heads so they resembled

763
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 5: jaguar heads. And but at the same time they did

764
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 5: kill jaguars because they value their pelts, they valued their teeth,

765
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 5: you know, et cetera. But they had I mean it

766
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 5: was you know, it was their totem. It was something

767
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 5: you know that was important to every aspect of their lives.

768
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: But they didn't regard it as like as one of

769
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: their predators. You mean it has something to be feared. Yeah,

770
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: Like when you went out, you know, like, let's you

771
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: talk about the northern plains, right, and the northern plains

772
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: you knew people, everyone would have known people that were

773
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 1: killed by grizzlies, yeah, right, and so but there wasn't

774
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: like an element of that, like a thing that was

775
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: you were afraid of.

776
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 5: No no I I from all the reading I've done,

777
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 5: and you know the traveling I did, I never got

778
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 5: I never got that impression.

779
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was you know, they they were worshiped.

780
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: Mm hm. So what what At what point did you

781
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: go from being like kind of interested in jaguars to

782
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: being that you're gonna do a whole book like that

783
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: little transition?

784
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, right right, Well, let's see. I read I was

785
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 5: living just above Boulder, Colorado, on a little mining town

786
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 5: called Jamestown, and I was going to grad school at

787
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 5: CU and I read Jaguar for the first time in

788
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 5: like nineteen ninety It came out in nineteen eighty six

789
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 5: or something like that, and I.

790
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: Was bold, over, what is that book? I'm not faking.

791
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 5: That's Alan Rabinowitz's first book.

792
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: He wrote Jaguar. It was about his.

793
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 5: Experience in Belize when he was there for a year

794
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 5: and a half and he radio collared the first jaguar

795
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 5: in the rainforest. But he dedicated himself to this Coxhoam

796
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 5: Basin in Belize. He dedicated himself to the jaguars of Belize.

797
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 5: And I read that book and I was like, man,

798
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 5: this guy's my hero. He's incredible. He's like fierce and fearless.

799
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 5: He'll go anywhere. He'll do anything. And he brought his weights.

800
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 5: He was like he was a he was a martial

801
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 5: artist and he was a weightlifter. Brought his weights to

802
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 5: this little, tiny, little Mayan village down in Belize and

803
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 5: he would do his weights and he had green eyes

804
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 5: and a hairy chest. And the people of the Maya

805
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 5: people didn't know they were they feared him. Initially they

806
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 5: thought he had the eyes of a jaguar. But anyway,

807
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 5: I would go around and you know, I would I

808
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 5: would hike around the mountains, fish or hunt or backpack,

809
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 5: and I would pretend like I was looking for jaguar tracks.

810
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 5: And then like fast forward to two thousand, I don't

811
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 5: know one or two I didn't. I did an interview

812
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 5: with Alan Rabinowitz for I think it was Outside magazine,

813
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,959
Speaker 5: and I talked to him at length, what.

814
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: Year like two thousand one or two there? Then, oh

815
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: you were I started writing there in two thousand. Oh

816
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: well then I'm sure I read it.

817
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 5: Were you in Santa Fe?

818
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: At the time? I was just like what they call

819
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: it a time contributing editor contributing Oh yeah, yeah, so

820
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: I was never under contract? Why did like cover stories

821
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: and yeah.

822
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 5: Sad what's become of outside.

823
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: Was different now, but not sending you over to the

824
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: Philippines for now.

825
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 5: They got no budgets now. So anyway, I I interviewed

826
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 5: him at length, and I proposed writing a biography at

827
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 5: at that time of him, and he kind of entertained

828
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 5: the notion. And about six months later, after we had long,

829
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 5: long conversations about his life, he'd just been diagnosed with

830
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 5: chronic lymphatic leukemia, which the doctors told him would eventually

831
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 5: kill him. And they told him not to get like amoebic.

832
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: Dysentery or malaria or whatever.

833
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 5: It would, you know, it would it would set him back.

834
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 5: But of course he didn't, you know, he didn't listen

835
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 5: to it.

836
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: And where was this guy from? He was from He

837
00:46:58,880 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: was from New York.

838
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 5: He grew up in Queens, New York. But there was

839
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 5: nowhere he wouldn't go and nothing he wouldn't do. He

840
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 5: I mean, he studied tigers in Burma and Thailand. He

841
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 5: studied clouded leopards on the island and for most of.

842
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: A big cat guy, oh, big big cat.

843
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 5: The most you know. They called him the Indiana Jones

844
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 5: of wildlife ecology. He was super fit he's super courageous,

845
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 5: would do anything.

846
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: But anyway, I gotta tell you something, this nuts man

847
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: that I feel like lines up with this. Yeah. So

848
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: then it would have been around ninety or ninety one, No,

849
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: like ninety one or ninety two. I went to a

850
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: National Trappers Association convention, Okay, might have been in Iowa,

851
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: and I go to a lecture by a prominent trapper.

852
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: His last name was Brown. I'm trying. I feel like

853
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: his name is Jerry Brown. But that's like the old government.

854
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: There's probably million Jerry Brown's. He's a he's a predator trapper,

855
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: like a kyo trapper, cat trapper. Yeah, he was giving

856
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: a lecture. I'm not shooting you. He's giving acture. He

857
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 1: had been contracted and had been down in South America

858
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: with researchers trying to figure out how to get collars

859
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: on jaguars using foot snares and other things. And because

860
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: he's like, he's like a big cat trapper and he

861
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 1: was like talking about his experiences like that dude had

862
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: to have somehow been lined up with the guy you're

863
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: talking about, because.

864
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 5: I'm sure he was. Was his name Darren Simpson? Not definitely,

865
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 5: not that definitely not that okay, And he was like he.

866
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: Was just a consultant and a guy that knew his

867
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: way around cat trapping, and he was taking I remember

868
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: him talking about they were developing because he's trying to

869
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: hook him and he just gave this lecture about I

870
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: remember at that time even thinking like that was bad

871
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: ass because those professional trappers are I was trying to

872
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: find ways to round out their income, and that was

873
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: what he was doing. And I wonder if he, like.

874
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 5: They first started trapping jaguars and the pontinal in in

875
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 5: the early like late in the seventies or early eighties,

876
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 5: but then but it wasn't prominent. It wasn't a you know,

877
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 5: common practice. They will cable snares on the foot, on

878
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 5: the foot, yeah, like a loaded snare, like a loaded snare, right, No,

879
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 5: no bait, no bait, blind sets, blind sets. Yeah, yeah,

880
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 5: that's the way you got to You got to be

881
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 5: really good. So this Joe rs May, he's a veterinarian

882
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 5: and a big cat trapper that I spent you know,

883
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 5: considerable amount of time with in Brazil. The guy's amazing.

884
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 5: He's like my cousin Himo trapping wolverines. You know up

885
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 5: in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. I mean he's he

886
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 5: traps osclity, traps mained wolves, he traps jaguars over one

887
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 5: hundred and it's really pretty simple. But the trail sets

888
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 5: trade yeah yeah, and he and it's it's it's amazing.

889
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't know how he goes about, like what is

890
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: he doing?

891
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 5: So you have the so he sets the he sets

892
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 5: a piece of you know, the base plate. He uses

893
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 5: rebar and he anchors it like two feet down. Then

894
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 5: he has then he has swivels in springs and then

895
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 5: he attaches that to the thrower. And then there's the

896
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 5: cable snare so and then there's the pressure plate just outside.

897
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: You know the cable snare.

898
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 5: Which is just a sponge with with.

899
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: Dirt on top.

900
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 5: And and then he makes this little lane.

901
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: And that's the trigger. Is the weight on the pressure.

902
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 5: Exactly, that's the that's the trigger, that's the weight is

903
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 5: the weight on that. And then he makes this little trail.

904
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: It's amaze.

905
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 5: I don't know how.

906
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: And they don't worry about about scent human scent, which

907
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, they don't give it. They don't care. That's

908
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: kind of true. Like cat trapping in general. Oh is it? Yeah,

909
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: they're not like.

910
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 5: They're not like I don't watching my my cousin Jimo

911
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 5: trapped wolves.

912
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, cats like bare hands, you know,

913
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: you don't even a lot of guys don't cover the pan.

914
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So so then he made this kind of

915
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 5: trail of leaves to the to the snare, and then

916
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 5: he got out all the all the stuff in the

917
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 5: middle of the trail. Because jaguars like to walk side,

918
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 5: jaguars like to walk silently.

919
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: They can't even be a leaf there, can't offer him

920
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 1: a quiet place to put exactly, offer him a quiet

921
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: place to put his foot.

922
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 5: And then and then they have a little like fishing

923
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 5: line attached to the cable snare which runs up a

924
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 5: pole which attaches to a magnet in a transmitter. So

925
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 5: when the cat trips that, you know you have a receiver.

926
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 5: You know that that that kid that yeah, you know

927
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 5: that that trap has been tripped and it's.

928
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: And you got like a tape here or a white

929
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: lipa you don't know what's in there.

930
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 5: Sometimes you got a taper, right.

931
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 8: Is there some urgency to get there so they don't

932
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 8: hurt them?

933
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, they they they have a cat in

934
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 5: the catch circle, you clear everything out of the catch circle.

935
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 5: Otherwise they will tear the thing up like a wolverine or.

936
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 1: Something, hurt himself and hurt himself. Yeah.

937
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 5: In fact, in the book Alan Rabinowitz, one of the

938
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 5: the first jaguar he traps is i Puk, which is

939
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 5: the Mayan god of death, tears tears off his tears

940
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 5: off his canine in one of the in one of

941
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 5: the traps.

942
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it does. It does happen?

943
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 8: Is he using trail cameras to zero in on specific

944
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 8: jaguars or just to like keep Yeah, they use.

945
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 5: They use lots of lots of trail cams to zero

946
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 5: in on jaguars.

947
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

948
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then you know, they they start establishing the

949
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 5: big cat's routine and then they'll put you know, then they'll.

950
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: Put bea ah. So they're like targeting a cat.

951
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 5: They're targeting a cat. Yeah, they're targeting a specific cat.

952
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: How many countries you been to you in your life? Oh,

953
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: my god, in my life? Yeah, like a hundred? No,

954
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: probably not, no, I don't know.

955
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 5: I for the for the book, I traveled, you know,

956
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 5: all over South America, Central America. You know, my my

957
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 5: friend's lab. My friends joke that I only write books

958
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 5: when I so I could travel to those places. Oh yeah,

959
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 5: so I guess there was an element of truth.

960
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: To that, but.

961
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, i'd have to get I have to think about it.

962
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 5: You know, been to Africa, been to you know, all

963
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 5: over Southeast Asia, now South American, Central America.

964
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: Probably not as many places as you, not a bit more. Yeah,

965
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've repeatedly gone back to New Guinea.

966
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: So you keep burning up opportunities, right, yeah. So, uh,

967
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 1: when we got off on a couple not tangents because

968
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: they're very relevant, you were warming up to you were

969
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: warming up to your subject. Yeah, and he got sick.

970
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 5: Oh sorry, yeah, sorry, yeah, so he got he got sick.

971
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 5: But ultimately he said, you know what, this has been great.

972
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 5: We remain friends, but I'm going to write my own books.

973
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 5: By that time, he'd already written Jaguar Chasing the Dragon's

974
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 5: tale about trying to find the foremost and the mythical

975
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 5: formos in clouded Leopard, which he never found.

976
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know what that is.

977
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 5: A clouded leopard is a little is a little, you know,

978
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 5: small little leopard out of very elusive Thailand formosa, you know,

979
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 5: and it's not an actual thing or it is, no,

980
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 5: it is, it is, but they I say mythical because

981
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 5: they thought it existed.

982
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: But you know, he probably died one hundred years before. Oh,

983
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: like he thought it was like a Lazarus species. Yeah, right, right.

984
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 5: And then he wrote a book about two books about Burma,

985
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 5: one called Life in the Valley of Death and one

986
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 5: called Beyond the Last Village. So he's a great writer.

987
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 5: And I mind all his books, you know, and did

988
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 5: lots of interviews with friends and his wife to write

989
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 5: the book. But ultimately he decided, you know, he didn't

990
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 5: need me to write a book. But we remain friends.

991
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 5: We remained friends for a long time. And then, you know,

992
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 5: as some of these friendships do, you know, we we

993
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 5: just we stopped talking for no other reason than we

994
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 5: just got busy. And in twenty eighteen, I went to

995
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 5: New Guinea and we'd been in touch and I talking

996
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 5: again about doing a documentary about him or a book

997
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 5: about him, and we've been talking and you know, in

998
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 5: back in touch, and I was elated, because you know,

999
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 5: he's an amazing guy. I got back from I got

1000
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 5: back from New Guinea and one of the people at

1001
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 5: panther The communications director called me and told me he died.

1002
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 5: So so, you know, he died way before his time,

1003
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 5: you know, of actually leukemia together with with a skin cancer.

1004
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1005
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 5: So you know that was in twenty eighteen. I think

1006
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 5: he was sixty sixty three at the time. But you know,

1007
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 5: he was just he was fearsome and you know, fearless.

1008
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: He was someone to be admired. Yeah, so eventually you

1009
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: decided to I mean, obviously I'm looking at it right now. Yeah,

1010
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: he picked up the project.

1011
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I picked up the project and you know,

1012
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 5: got in touch with Panthera, the organization he kind of

1013
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 5: helped establish.

1014
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: And there was this other guy named.

1015
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 5: Howard Quigley who was a famous jaguar biologist and also

1016
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 5: tiger biologist. He was one of the first people to

1017
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 5: collar amyer tigers in Siberia.

1018
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: Amazing guy too.

1019
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 5: So he helped me, you know, kind of find places

1020
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 5: along the Jaguar Corridor, you know, along that five thousand

1021
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 5: miles to visit you know, people people that wanted to talk,

1022
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 5: people that were doing amazing things, and also people places

1023
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 5: where I might have a chance of seeing jaguars.

1024
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, along that corridor. Imagine the Darien Gaps got be

1025
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 1: a real bit huh, Like that's got to be like

1026
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: the problem, right, that that is the yeah exactly.

1027
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 4: I feel like the Darien Gap only gets brought up

1028
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 4: in the context of it being a problem, yeah, for

1029
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 4: various reasons.

1030
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: Well. And then and then at the height, like at

1031
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: the height of the Biden administration, when there was so

1032
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: much illegal immigration, it like brought in tons of people

1033
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: into the into the Darien Gap, and then the Darien

1034
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: Gap kind of became like almost like a conflict zone.

1035
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

1036
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 5: I mean, wasn't there a New York Times reporter who

1037
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 5: went down there and walked the Darien Gap with the people?

1038
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 5: I mean, can you imagine like four year old children

1039
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 5: going through the Darien Gap.

1040
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: And people in there preying on them? Oh oh yeah yeah.

1041
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: And it like this this very isolated place became also

1042
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: like a very visited place, yeah, right, and a lot

1043
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: of a lot of violence out of.

1044
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 5: A lot of violence, yeah, a lot of trafficking.

1045
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1046
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 5: But for yeah, for the Jaguar that that's like a

1047
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 5: pinch point. And when they were first establishing the Jaguar

1048
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 5: cort Or, that was something they really worried about is

1049
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 5: the Darien getta.

1050
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess through that context,

1051
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about this corridor. Like the objective presumably is

1052
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: to get jaguars back into their northern range, right back

1053
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: in the meso America.

1054
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.

1055
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: But the.

1056
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 5: Major point is that because jaguars are the only wide

1057
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 5: ranging predators without a subspecies, that's to preserve that's to

1058
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 5: preserve the DNA. You know, there are no taxonomic differences

1059
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 5: between jaguars. You know, when that was discovered in nineteen

1060
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 5: ninety nine, Alan Rabinowitz was elated. He's like, you know,

1061
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 5: we can treat jaguars as a single ecological unit, as

1062
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 5: one species. So that was the idea, you know, is

1063
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 5: the genetic flow, genetic freedom, make sure that jaguars could

1064
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 5: move throughout the corridor, you know, in spread their genes.

1065
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: What is the what are the the corridor, what are

1066
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: the what's the northern terminus in the southern terminus? Like, like,

1067
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: what is the corridor?

1068
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 5: So the corridor is this kind of loosely connected they

1069
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 5: call them jaguar conservation units. The the kind of the

1070
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 5: the avenues or the trails or whatever you want to

1071
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 5: call them the passageways by which they connect the jaguar

1072
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 5: conservation units, which are just areas that produce a lot

1073
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 5: of jaguars that are just you know, good habitat for jaguars.

1074
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 5: But it goes from again the Ebera or Ibera all

1075
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 5: the way up to essentially the Sierra Madres of of

1076
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 5: of Mexico or to southern Arizona. Essentially everything below Highway

1077
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 5: ten in southern Arizona. In Arizona, that's the corridor. So

1078
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 5: it's a huge quarridor it's one of the biggest corridors

1079
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 5: of any animal on earth, except the leopards may be

1080
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 5: a little bit bigger.

1081
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 4: Just for like, as far as there their range like

1082
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 4: of an individual animal and their social lives, is it

1083
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 4: fair like what would expect, like males rome and they're

1084
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 4: fairly solitary creatures. I mean, is there anything unique in

1085
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 4: terms of jaguars and how they move around the landscape

1086
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 4: and relate to one another.

1087
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean they're first of all, they're they're solitary.

1088
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 5: You know, they get together to mate and that's pretty

1089
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 5: much yet. But jim, oh yeah, sorry, And the the

1090
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 5: females they have what they call range fidelity, so they

1091
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 5: don't move that far. But the males, particularly a male

1092
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,439
Speaker 5: in what they call natal dispersal, a male that has

1093
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 5: not mate it like like co cheese or like this

1094
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 5: this famous jaguar el Hefe. You know, they'll come out

1095
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 5: of they'll come out of the Sierra Madres of northern Mexico,

1096
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 5: the Northern Jaguar Reserve, which is like one hundred and

1097
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 5: twenty five miles south of the border, and they'll they'll

1098
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,959
Speaker 5: roam all the way into you know, the Santa Rita

1099
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 5: Mountains of southern Arizona. So they have huge ranges.

1100
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: So that's that's where those Arizona cats are coming from. Yeah,

1101
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was that close to the border.

1102
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred and twenty five miles south of the border.

1103
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 5: And that's you know, kind of like the a Waning Well,

1104
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say waning, but the last population, the farthest

1105
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 5: north breeding population of jaguars.

1106
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: And are we talking like ten are we talking hundreds?

1107
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: Now you're probably talking like thirty or forty in the

1108
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: Sierra Madra in the Sierra Madres. Yeah, eating Cou's deer,

1109
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: eating cou's deer.

1110
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I know, you've had Jim Jim Hefflefinger. I

1111
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 5: know you've had Jim Heffelfinger on it. He I talked

1112
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 5: with him at length. He's a great guy. We've discovered

1113
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 5: that we grew up like ten ten miles from there.

1114
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so I was just I wasn't gonna bring

1115
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: up Halfelfinger by name. But let's talk a little bit

1116
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: about wildlife politics and Arizona. Yeah, sure, Well you can't

1117
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: avoid it, all right. So the like there's a sort

1118
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: of I don't know, man, there's a sort of battle. Okay,

1119
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 1: there's a there's a management battle where in Arizona there

1120
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 1: are there are forces, there are powers that be that

1121
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: want to just kind of wash their hands of this

1122
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: whole jaguar thing, and they want to say, sure, like

1123
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: maybe now and then a male would wander up into Arizona.

1124
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: But you can't call this core habitat because once someone says, no, bro,

1125
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: this is core habitat, then they're gonna be like, it'd

1126
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: be like the same thing like Colorado them saying, you

1127
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: know what, we have a mandate. We're gonna we're gonna

1128
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: reintroduce wolves in Colorado. The fear is that someone down

1129
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: the road says, and this is not my fear. I

1130
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: think it's a great idea. The fear is that someone

1131
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: down the road, someone says, Hey, this is historic jaguar range,

1132
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: this is core habitat for jaguars. We have a legal

1133
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 1: responsibility to restore jaguars in Arizona, which I think is

1134
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: a phenomenal idea. I'd like it even more if I

1135
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: live there.

1136
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 5: That's a cool I want to see because you didn't

1137
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 5: see it.

1138
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: I just like all that. I like I like all that,

1139
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: Like I like looking over my shoulder, you know, And

1140
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 1: even though they're passive and all that, I just like

1141
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: the whole thing about them. And you're never gonna have

1142
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: it's not gonna have like enough jaguars where you're having, Like,

1143
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: it's not gonna have like a it's not gonna be

1144
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden predation goes up because what

1145
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: it's gonna come. It's gonna come at the expensive mountain lions. Yeah,

1146
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? So I think it's

1147
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: a phenomenal idea. I'm just throwing that out there. But

1148
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: that's like the wildlife politics end. And so these guys

1149
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: came up with this great map. Yeah, it's every known

1150
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: and so it's in the U in the United States

1151
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: of America. It's this map of like every known instance,

1152
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: and they track down stuff even like photos and bars. Yeah,

1153
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: like some old photo a barers, like a dude with

1154
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: a dead jaguar.

1155
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 9: Like what is that all about? They're like, oh, yeah,

1156
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 9: my grandpa he shot it. Yeah, does anyone No, No,

1157
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 9: it's just like a picture in the bar. But then

1158
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 9: they get to interview people.

1159
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: Are like, legitimately at some point in time, like it

1160
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: seems like this dude's grandpa, no joke, shot a jaguar,

1161
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 1: and so on the map and people argue about the map,

1162
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 1: and on the map is also jaguars that dudes trucked

1163
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: up there to turn loose for jaguar hunts, right, And

1164
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: so the map is like a contentious map where they're there.

1165
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: There's people going like not legit, not legit, not legit,

1166
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: and other people are going like, no, these are all

1167
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: legit sightings. And it boils down to is someone someday

1168
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: gonna say we're gonna do a release of jaguars. Well

1169
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 1: you seem to not like this subject.

1170
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 5: Well, I'm telling you you called it controversial, man, that's it.

1171
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 5: In the nail on the head and it's been going

1172
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 5: on for a long time since pretty much nineteen ninety

1173
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 5: six when two ranch when one rancher Warner Glenn guy

1174
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 5: straight out.

1175
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you if you ran he caught that one.

1176
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, straight out of Central casting. You know, saw

1177
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 5: someone in nineteen ninety six and this other guy named

1178
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 5: he and his wife Jack Childs, and he was a

1179
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 5: he was a you know, he ran lions with his

1180
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 5: with his daughters.

1181
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, we've we've had like our colleague Clay has

1182
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: done a lot with him.

1183
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 5: Oh oh Jack video Warner with Warner, Yeah, well with Warner. Yeah, yeah,

1184
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 5: well they're both They're amazing, amazing guys and probably pretty

1185
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 5: middle of the middle of the road guys as far

1186
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 5: as jaguars are concerned.

1187
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: If you go into like even in those years like

1188
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: back then a little bit later that know, it's much

1189
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,959
Speaker 1: in two thousands. Yeah. Uh, there's a guy that knew

1190
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: those guys that that me and Yanni are friends with

1191
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: Floyd Green and you went into his optic shop and

1192
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: there's a picture of that jaguar. Yeah, and I was like,

1193
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: what's up with that jaguar. It's like the Warner Glenn jaguar,

1194
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: oh Marazona.

1195
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, he talked about the shiny green, shining green eyes.

1196
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: You're thinking Leopold, Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

1197
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: In Leopold.

1198
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 5: Leopold loved, ultimately loved jaguars. He wrote a lot about jaguars.

1199
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 5: But I won't we won't go that far straight.

1200
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: But so, I mean, this is.

1201
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 5: Really really complicated, and I won't give you too much history,

1202
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 5: but there is. There was an effort called CANDRA, the

1203
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 5: Central Arizona, New Mexico Recovery Area, and this group that

1204
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 5: this group that you're called you were talking about, wanted

1205
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 5: to set aside twenty million acres from the Elder Leopold

1206
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 5: Elder Leopold Wilderness and the Hila all the way up

1207
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 5: to the southern rim of the Grand Canyon along the

1208
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 5: Muggy and Rim as jaguar historically, historically it was probably

1209
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 5: jaguar habitat. So they wanted to do a reintroduction of

1210
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 5: jaguars ninety to one hundred and twenty jaguars in that area,

1211
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 5: which was shot down by fishing. US Fish and Wildlife

1212
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 5: Service and the Secretary of the Interior.

1213
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: Did you want to talk about people's panties getting on fire.

1214
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 5: I'm sure you can imagine the Cattleman's Association, et cetera.

1215
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 5: But you know, and the hunters too. I mean, I hunt,

1216
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 5: so you know it's a tough thing.

1217
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: But jaguars and I wasn't like, here's the deal. Yeah,

1218
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,920
Speaker 1: I feel and I'm not a cat expert. Yeah, I

1219
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: feel this is just my me ballpark or like crystal

1220
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: ball in it. I don't think you'd see because this

1221
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,959
Speaker 1: is all mountain lion country. Yeah, I don't think you'd

1222
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 1: probably see an increase in predation.

1223
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 5: I think you'd see it shift from what to what.

1224
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: I think the mountain lions would would pay the price.

1225
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 4: Oh like if you if you species, you don't all

1226
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,560
Speaker 4: of a sudden double your big cat population.

1227
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, like when you put so if you put wolves

1228
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: into the mountain lions, you get like additive predation has

1229
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: been very demonstrated. I just have a hard time picture

1230
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: and it throwing another cat in the mix. Maybe I'm wrong,

1231
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: throwing another cat in the mix. I still think you're

1232
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: going to see X number a dead deer killed by cats.

1233
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, not not double or trip now, I don't think.

1234
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well what do I know?

1235
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 4: I don't know, yeah, makes sense though I can see

1236
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 4: it both ways.

1237
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: It makes complete sense.

1238
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, jaguars living really low low densities.

1239
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 5: Second of all, they eat eighty five species. You know,

1240
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 5: they're not They're not going to just eat cous deer

1241
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 5: and elk. They're going to eat frogs, They're going to

1242
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 5: eat skunks, They're gonna eat turtles. They like turtles, Yeah,

1243
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 5: they love turtles.

1244
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: No turtles and airs.

1245
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, I mean they're real generalists, you know,

1246
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 5: so they're not going to concentrate, you know, on the

1247
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 5: deer or on the yelk. And I think Jim Heffelfinger

1248
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 5: has said that, you know, I don't think that predation

1249
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 5: would be increased that much, right, I.

1250
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: Don't want to drag him into this. Matter of fact,

1251
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,680
Speaker 1: I can't remember what his take on this whole thing is.

1252
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 5: Well, I think he I think his take on I

1253
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 5: think his take on critical habitat and reintroduction is very

1254
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 5: is negative. I mean, he's like, it's a it's a

1255
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 5: powder keg. And also why waste in endangered species money

1256
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 5: on a cat that may or may not want to

1257
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:59,879
Speaker 5: live because because they got the jowel muscles?

1258
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you see one of these cats.

1259
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 5: I mean they are so magnificent.

1260
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 1: I mean their heads are like that. Oh, and they're

1261
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: so powerful.

1262
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,759
Speaker 5: I mean they and they live in trees. They swim,

1263
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,879
Speaker 5: you know, they swim rivers with caman in their mouths

1264
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 5: for a mile. I mean they are like they are

1265
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 5: like the most they are like the most athletic cat

1266
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 5: there is athletic beast there.

1267
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: When I get attacked by a lion or grizzly, I

1268
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,599
Speaker 1: can pull their upper and lower jawpart so they can't

1269
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: clamp down on me. Like I don't know what the

1270
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: jag man one hundred and fifty pounce, I don't know.

1271
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 5: Pounds of pressure per square it.

1272
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start working out so I can hold them.

1273
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 7: They said, yeah, I've never seen a jaguar, but I

1274
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 7: think it was at a Denver zoo. They had some

1275
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 7: sort of tigers, and I don't know if they were

1276
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,759
Speaker 7: the bangle tiger what tiger. But I remember having that

1277
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 7: that this sense of awe that you're describing, and it

1278
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 7: was only, you know, there's a pane of glass between

1279
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 7: me and this giant cat, but when you look at it, it's.

1280
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 1: Just, Yeah, it gives you a weird feeling.

1281
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 4: Well, this is what you said earlier, is like when

1282
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 4: they move, every part of their body is activated. They're

1283
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 4: not like my lab where they're kind of walking and

1284
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 4: there's like legs like like there's shaking and jiggling like

1285
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 4: when a cat moves. It's like it's almost like a snake.

1286
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 4: It's like the whole thing is Yeah, like a.

1287
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: Runway model, dude, We're like just the whole thing. There's

1288
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: not a muscle out of place.

1289
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's exactly That's exactly right. You see one of

1290
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 5: those things. It's something to behold.

1291
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 1: People.

1292
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 5: Jaguar biologists who've seen like, you know, dozens in their

1293
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:42,440
Speaker 5: lives still.

1294
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: Think it's like a dream to see a jaguar. And yeah,

1295
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: they are. They are just incredibly beautiful, and there's such

1296
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: magnificent athletes.

1297
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:53,640
Speaker 5: You know, they're just you know, I mean, you know,

1298
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 5: they jump twenty feet you know, standing jump into a tree,

1299
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 5: and then they can live in trees in certain parts

1300
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 5: of the Amazon. When it floods, they live in trees

1301
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 5: for months. It's crazy.

1302
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: Huh, So what the what the sciet these protections? YEA,

1303
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: with more awareness with the quarters are we like has

1304
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 1: the decline and jaguars been reversed or is it Are

1305
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: they still a species in decline and is there is

1306
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 1: their territory still shrinking.

1307
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's a good question. I think jaguar biologists

1308
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 5: have hope.

1309
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: You know, they have to have hope.

1310
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 5: You know, it's kind of in kind in the you know,

1311
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 5: conservation you know, hope can be hard to come by.

1312
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 5: But yeah, I think that I think that people are

1313
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 5: hopeful that the jaguar will persist, that they can kind

1314
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 5: of lock down these jaguar conservation areas and they can

1315
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 5: defend the corridor. So I think they're Yeah, I think

1316
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 5: I don't know what's happening to the population in general,

1317
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 5: but I do think that they have hoped that the

1318
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:06,799
Speaker 5: jaguars will continue to persist, if not, if not thrive.

1319
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you didn't have, like in your book, you

1320
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: didn't have a through all that reporting, you didn't come

1321
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: up with like a strong personal opinion about what's going

1322
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 1: to happen with the animal. It just seems like it's

1323
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: like a legitimate question.

1324
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I'm it's it's it's tough. I mean, it's tough.

1325
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 1: I hate to be you know.

1326
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 5: I there were times when I was pessimistic, and there

1327
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 5: were times when.

1328
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: I was optimistic. Yeah.

1329
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 5: Well you go to the Pontinal and you're filled with

1330
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 5: optimism because you see, you see a lot of jaguars

1331
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 5: and they're you know there, there are a lot of

1332
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 5: jaguars there. But the Amazon, you know, the the the

1333
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 5: Amazon is imperiled, you know, and that's where the bulk

1334
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 5: of jaguars, maybe seventy to eighty percent of jaguars live,

1335
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 5: and the Amazon, I could you know, when I was

1336
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 5: in Brazil, when when when I don't mean to be political,

1337
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 5: but when Donald Trump slapped tariffs son Chinese goods, Chinese

1338
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 5: you know, reciprocated or retaliated slapped tear of son soybeans.

1339
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 5: So you know, our soybean farmers couldn't send soybeans to China.

1340
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,879
Speaker 1: So what did they Chinese do. They went to Bolivia

1341
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: and they went to the They went to they went

1342
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,879
Speaker 1: to Brazil and to invest in soybeans.

1343
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they just raised forests for you know, thirty

1344
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 5: forty miles you see nothing but bean fields and that's

1345
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 5: where they that's where they got their beans. So and

1346
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:40,839
Speaker 5: jaguars cannot live, you know, in a bean field.

1347
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 1: But you don't need to apologize for being political, because

1348
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: what's not political? Yeah, particularly these you know what I

1349
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 1: mean like like, well, no, I mean like wildlife is political. Yeah,

1350
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: it is. It's like you can't. There's no world in

1351
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: which you could talk about wildlife and have it not

1352
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 1: intersect with politics. It's just it's like it is political. Yeah.

1353
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,560
Speaker 5: And Alan Rabinowitz worked in Burma shortly after the generals

1354
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 5: crushed the pro democracy movement, and he worked there and

1355
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 5: he was criticized. He was criticized by fellow biologists. He

1356
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 5: was criticized in the newspaper newspapers. He said, you know,

1357
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 5: since when do you know tigers get a vote? He said,

1358
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 5: I'm going to go save tigers.

1359
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: And well, they expected him to withdraw from Burma.

1360
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, they expected him to withdraw from Burma and he wouldn't.

1361
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 5: And you know, in some cases he was dealing with

1362
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:28,799
Speaker 5: generals you know, who were you know, pretty unscrupulous people.

1363
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 5: But his commitment was to you know, was to the

1364
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,559
Speaker 5: jaguar or they're the tigers, I mean to the tiger.

1365
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thanks, Yeah. Do you focus mostly on his

1366
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:41,679
Speaker 1: work with jaguars or do you get into his work

1367
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: with other cats?

1368
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 5: I get into his work a little bit with tigers

1369
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 5: in Burma, but mostly I focus, you know, on the jaguar,

1370
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:54,480
Speaker 5: just because it was so kind of, you know, revolutionary,

1371
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 5: the notion of the jaguar corridor. You know, that swath

1372
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:02,440
Speaker 5: of land, you know, five five thousand, five thousand miles

1373
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 5: just hadn't been attempted before for one species.

1374
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 1: And then how much did he live through by the

1375
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: time he died, Was it clear that his vision was

1376
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 1: going to carry was going to be effective.

1377
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely he inspired. I mean, the jaguar Corridor was

1378
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 5: essentially his idea in the jaguar Corridor lives on today,

1379
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 5: and I mean they're countless biologists and countless environmental organizations

1380
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 5: who are dedicated to it.

1381
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:39,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, it lives on.

1382
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 5: And I think that he was aware before he died,

1383
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,440
Speaker 5: you know, that that there was a commitment to maintaining

1384
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 5: the jaguar Corridor.

1385
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 1: Do you think he's looking down and he's pissed that

1386
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:51,640
Speaker 1: you want to write the book after all? After that

1387
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 1: be thankful? Well, he's like son of I asked ten

1388
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,719
Speaker 1: times his.

1389
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 5: His wife was really really helpful, and it was I

1390
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 5: think it was still a painful experience for her because

1391
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 5: she still hadn't taken all his journals out of his closet. George,

1392
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,799
Speaker 5: he was a he was a protege of George Shaller,

1393
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 5: and George Shaller said, your job is at the end

1394
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 5: of every first of all, take field notes, and at

1395
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 5: the end of the day revisit those notes and write

1396
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:28,559
Speaker 5: about the sights and sounds and smells, you know, he said.

1397
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 5: I think his quote was the the the pen is

1398
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 5: your is the weapon against oblivion. So Alan Rabinowitz followed that,

1399
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 5: and he was a He was a he was a

1400
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 5: very careful and dedicated note taker. So his his wife,

1401
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 5: you know, it was pretty brave to allow me to

1402
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 5: to you know, to do Yeah, exactly, Karin.

1403
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: When we were in Africa, wasn't it wasn't those guys

1404
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 1: from Pantera that we were talking the lion guys.

1405
01:17:58,280 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 9: Yep, yep, exactly.

1406
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. We were with some dudes that were we just

1407
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: shared a camp with them, and they were coming in

1408
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 1: to set up they were coming in to set up

1409
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,679
Speaker 1: a huge camera trap array. Yeah, we'll call them trail

1410
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: cams in our circle. They were coming in to set

1411
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: up a huge trail cam array around lions leopards. I

1412
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: think mainly, I think mainly those two. Yeah. Oh wow, yeah, yeah.

1413
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 5: I used to call them trail cams too, but I've

1414
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 5: been around jaguar biologists for so long I call them

1415
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:33,679
Speaker 5: camera traps.

1416
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: Fast. You had to assimilate, Like I got a thing

1417
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 1: like like coyote, coyote. You know, there's very like you

1418
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: don't meet many people who you don't meet trappers and

1419
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:50,720
Speaker 1: stuff to.

1420
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 5: Say you got a code switch.

1421
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, trail cams you kind of know where they're coming from.

1422
01:18:58,200 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: Camera traps, you kind of know where to comes.

1423
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,720
Speaker 5: You don't call them mountain lion. Mountain lion, you call

1424
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 5: him cats, right, yeah.

1425
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:07,720
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, So it's a yeah, it's funny you can

1426
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,559
Speaker 1: tell someone's background there, but it's been what an amazing

1427
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,599
Speaker 1: tool though, And my understanding too is with with leopards

1428
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: and also with jaguars, the rosettes are identifiable complete, so

1429
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: it gives you the ability to to name them and

1430
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: know them.

1431
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's how that's how they Jack Child's

1432
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 5: identified a jaguar in two thousand and five he caught

1433
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:37,639
Speaker 5: him on his trail cams and in two thousand and five,

1434
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 5: and he looked at the rosettes and said, these are

1435
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 5: the same rosettes that I saw on the jaguar that

1436
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,719
Speaker 5: we photographed in nineteen ninety six, and then.

1437
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:51,640
Speaker 1: What year was it in two thousand and five? Okay,

1438
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 1: So he recognized.

1439
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 5: There was one that resembled Pinocchio and one resembled a

1440
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 5: cartoon character called Betty Boop. I don't know, I don't

1441
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 5: I'm not familiar, but that's how he identified that cat.

1442
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 5: So that cat had been living in Arizona from nineteen

1443
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 5: ninety six through two thousand and five. Huh so, yeah,

1444
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 5: so that is the no.

1445
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 1: No Arizona that long without getting in trouble. Yeah, without

1446
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:21,479
Speaker 1: getting in trouble. Yeah. Yeah, pretty amazing man. You know.

1447
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 5: Uh, they're one thing their grout there. Jaguars have this

1448
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 5: modified hi oed bone in their throats so they can

1449
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 5: roar unlike any other cat in the United States, and

1450
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 5: so every jaguars roar is different too. That's kind of

1451
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 5: their auditory signature. No no, no roar is the same.

1452
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 1: Huh really? Yeah? Do you know the story This was

1453
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 1: another controversial one in the book. Do you tell the

1454
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 1: story of the jaguar that gets killed by researchers in Arizona?

1455
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 1: Tell that story real quick?

1456
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 5: Oh man, that's a that's a that's a sore one. Right,

1457
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 5: that's a complicated one. So that that's called that's macho

1458
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 5: b that. So in two thousand and eight, oh man,

1459
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:07,679
Speaker 5: this is gonna be tough. In two thousand and eight,

1460
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 5: the Department of Homeland Security set aside or made it

1461
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 5: known they had fifty million dollars to give to agencies

1462
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:22,800
Speaker 5: who were studying who wanted to study the effects of

1463
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:30,439
Speaker 5: the border wall on endangered species. And there was a

1464
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:37,760
Speaker 5: group called the Jaguar Borderland Detection Group, and they set

1465
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 5: up trail cams all over southern Arizona from the Chiracaua

1466
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 5: Mountains or the Anamous Mountains in New Mexico all the

1467
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 5: way to the Barbakiveries, you know, in southwest of Tucson.

1468
01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 5: And I've kind of lost my thought from moment.

1469
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 1: Oh we're talking about that cat that turned up got killed. Yeah,

1470
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 1: So so.

1471
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:13,799
Speaker 5: They what what the Arizona Game and Fish Department wanted.

1472
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 5: They wanted to They wanted to capture and collar a jaguar. Now,

1473
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 5: there was a group called the jag the Jaguar Conservation Group,

1474
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 5: which was made up of guys in the government, conservationists ranchers,

1475
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:33,680
Speaker 5: et cetera. And the environmentalists in that group said, if

1476
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 5: you're not going to set aside critical habitat and refuse

1477
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:40,839
Speaker 5: to why do we have to call her a jaguar

1478
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 5: Because that's essentially what you want to know. You want

1479
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,959
Speaker 5: to figure out what his range is and where.

1480
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 1: He's But then you're not going to do anything with

1481
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: the info. But you're not going to do anything.

1482
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 5: You're not going to do anything with the info. So

1483
01:22:53,560 --> 01:23:03,520
Speaker 5: so the so there was a surreptitious plan to capture

1484
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:11,679
Speaker 5: a cat, this Macho B, in an area where they

1485
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 5: were also trying to trap mountain lions and bears. So

1486
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 5: in February eighteenth, two thousand and nine, Macho B was captured,

1487
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:33,719
Speaker 5: and he was captured in a snare which they baited

1488
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:40,679
Speaker 5: with the scat of a female jaguar in heat. Yeah,

1489
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 5: this is this is a long.

1490
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 1: This is gonna be a long. There's like some little

1491
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,719
Speaker 1: ring go here, I pressed.

1492
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's still a sore point down there.

1493
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:53,840
Speaker 1: And so.

1494
01:23:55,640 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 5: There was this guy named Amo McCain who was had

1495
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:06,839
Speaker 5: studied in Brazil with learned and was an amazing tracker. Well,

1496
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 5: he had set up this snare with these two other

1497
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:13,680
Speaker 5: biologists from the Arizona Game and Fish Department, and he

1498
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 5: said everything had been cleared, everything was above board. Well,

1499
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 5: it turns out it wasn't above board. So this jaguar,

1500
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:26,839
Speaker 5: Macho B, was snared in February eighteenth of two thousand

1501
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 5: and nine. Two biologists said he was extremely frail at

1502
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 5: the time, and so the they collared him, and then

1503
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 5: they waited six hours for the telezol to drift out

1504
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 5: of his body, and then the jaguar stumbled off, but

1505
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 5: he already was in bad condition. And then about two

1506
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 5: weeks later, they weren't getting a signal from Macho B

1507
01:24:56,560 --> 01:25:01,520
Speaker 5: from the collar. So about two weeks later some Arizona

1508
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 5: Game and Fish people went to check on Macho B.

1509
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 5: And they said he was extremely frail and stumbling around.

1510
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:11,599
Speaker 1: Check on him, houf and not getting a signal from

1511
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 1: the collar.

1512
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 5: They went back to that that site, the snare site,

1513
01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 5: and essentially he hadn't moved. The jaguar hadn't moved. So

1514
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 5: then like a couple of days later.

1515
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: So they're not getting a move they're not getting moved,

1516
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 1: they're not getting any movement off the college.

1517
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:35,759
Speaker 5: So then on like March second, two thousand and nine,

1518
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:40,799
Speaker 5: a whistleblower came out. This woman named Janey Brunn, who

1519
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 5: was working with the Borderland Detection Group, said that she

1520
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 5: had placed the female scat at the snare site to.

1521
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: Lure Macho B.

1522
01:25:55,160 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 5: So right there, the Arizona Game and Fish essentially rationale

1523
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:04,160
Speaker 5: went out the window because it was deliberate.

1524
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, because their deal was that it just inadvertently got.

1525
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:14,799
Speaker 5: It was an incidental thing, but they had baited it.

1526
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: But they had baited.

1527
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 7: It for jaguar, for jaguars, And I'd like to know

1528
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 7: what it takes to get female jaguar in heat's gap.

1529
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 5: That's a great I have no idea. It's a great question.

1530
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:29,519
Speaker 5: I have no idea. That should be asked.

1531
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:35,960
Speaker 1: But then a day later, so what how is that

1532
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: a whistleboard? That seems more like an admission.

1533
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:42,559
Speaker 5: Well, because the the the Game and Fish department was

1534
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,559
Speaker 5: trying to cover up that it was, you know, an

1535
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 5: incidental inadvertent.

1536
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:51,719
Speaker 1: Oh, and so she was like, hey, it wasn't. In fact,

1537
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 1: I did it.

1538
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:56,040
Speaker 5: And then she wrote eventually wrote a book called Cloak

1539
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 5: and Jaguar.

1540
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 1: Was actually it was actually a.

1541
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:07,080
Speaker 5: Pretty good book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right right, So anyway.

1542
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,799
Speaker 1: We had good titles. So anyway, on.

1543
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:17,639
Speaker 10: Let's see March third, another party went out to check

1544
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:22,679
Speaker 10: on Macho B and captured him because they could tell

1545
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:26,000
Speaker 10: that he you know, he was hurting.

1546
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:27,840
Speaker 1: He was hurting and hurting bad.

1547
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 5: So they brought him to the Phoenix Zoo and they

1548
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:32,880
Speaker 5: did the bunch of tests and they.

1549
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,880
Speaker 1: Were like this, this jaguar is going to die. So

1550
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 1: they thought about they thought about putting and what did

1551
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:40,680
Speaker 1: the tests revealed that he been drugged bad or he

1552
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:44,240
Speaker 1: was starving. He was starving. He he he was he

1553
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:45,640
Speaker 1: had already starving.

1554
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:48,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, already starving physically in bad condition. And his kidneys

1555
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 5: were shot old old animal, so he would kidneys were

1556
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 5: shot from the drugs. No kidneys were shot from dehydration.

1557
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 5: When when they found him the first time, he was hypothermic.

1558
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 5: I think his core pressure was his core temperature was

1559
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 5: like ninety degrees or something like that. So so yeah,

1560
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 5: I mean this if I want so, I'm trying to

1561
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 5: give you some kind of broad brushstrokes. But ultimately they

1562
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 5: had to put the jaguar down. And when they put

1563
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 5: had to put the jaguar down on March third, all

1564
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 5: the pay you know, papers across the Country covered the

1565
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 5: death of Macho B. And then the whole, the whole

1566
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:40,480
Speaker 5: kind of I hate to say, guys, but the whole.

1567
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 1: Thing just blew up.

1568
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 5: Sure, and to two reporters for the Arizona Daily Star,

1569
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 5: a guy named Tim Steller and I think Tom Davis

1570
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:55,519
Speaker 5: waded into this for for months, wading into all the

1571
01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 5: all the all the literature, and ultimately sided that what

1572
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:05,799
Speaker 5: had happened was that the Arizona Game and Fish Department

1573
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,639
Speaker 5: did not have an incidental take permit from the US

1574
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:13,720
Speaker 5: Fish and Wildlife Service for jaguars. They had no jaguar

1575
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:21,840
Speaker 5: protocol handling protocol, so they just you know, because ultimately

1576
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 5: there was another reporter who reported on this and said

1577
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 5: it was driven by greed, driven by environmental politics, and

1578
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 5: driven by a desire to get some of that homeland

1579
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:39,599
Speaker 5: security money that for that they had set aside for

1580
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:40,759
Speaker 5: endangered species.

1581
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:42,280
Speaker 2: Can you get close it to your micro Yes.

1582
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 1: Sure.

1583
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 5: They they thought if they could capture Macho B, they

1584
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 5: would be able to get, you know, some of that

1585
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 5: homeland security money.

1586
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:53,200
Speaker 1: Does that all make sense? It's yeah, here's the one part.

1587
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 1: Here's the one part doesn't make sense. Yeah, not nothing.

1588
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 1: If this jaguar there seems to me like a little

1589
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 1: bit like what was the result of and what was before?

1590
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 1: If this jaguar is on death's door, right, how much

1591
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:16,960
Speaker 1: does he give a shit about a female dropping I'm saying,

1592
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 1: he's out doing jaguars stuff. Okay, he got himself, Like,

1593
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,640
Speaker 1: he gets himself to the snare location, right, and they

1594
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 1: might have had a great set, a great trail. But

1595
01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:33,440
Speaker 1: he's there. He's enough to be interested, he's got curiosity.

1596
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 1: He gets hooked. But then all of a sudden, it's like,

1597
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:39,920
Speaker 1: oh no, he was half dead already. It's like, are

1598
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 1: you sure? Because he showed up there but never left,

1599
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:48,919
Speaker 1: so you caught him at the moment at his last

1600
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 1: gasp was stepping on that plate. He's like, I'm good

1601
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 1: for one more step. It's just I feel like there's

1602
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 1: a little you know, like you could say like, oh no,

1603
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: he was all but he was in rough shape. He

1604
01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 1: was all beat up. It's like, could have been that

1605
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,240
Speaker 1: bad shap, dude. He caught him. Yeah, right, If he's

1606
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 1: in bad shape, he's laying in a thicket.

1607
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 5: Right, Well, I should on the second printing of my book.

1608
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:20,639
Speaker 1: Having not been there, having brief consideration of the fact

1609
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 1: that case.

1610
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 5: No, So that that was a real that for me,

1611
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:29,759
Speaker 5: that was a real conundrum about do I include that story?

1612
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 5: Do I dredge up all that old crap?

1613
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:38,599
Speaker 1: Well you have to, yeah, but because it's a new story. Yeah,

1614
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 1: that's right.

1615
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 5: But there were a lot of people, you know, who

1616
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 5: were kind of injured by by the story. And Jack

1617
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,760
Speaker 5: Childs said it put put jaguar biology in Arizona back

1618
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,599
Speaker 5: into the Stone Age. So I really really thought long

1619
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 5: and hard, or thought long and hard about whether I

1620
01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 5: wanted to tell that story, and ultimately I decided to

1621
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 5: because guys, I mean that pretty much has set the

1622
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 5: course for jaguar conservation in the Southwest in what way.

1623
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 5: It just it's just it's a stain. It's a stain

1624
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 5: that you know that nobody, nobody wants to dredge up.

1625
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:20,440
Speaker 1: And note right now, nobody really wants to touch.

1626
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 5: The jim Heth helthfel finger that the Arizona Game and

1627
01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:29,600
Speaker 5: Fish Department may be a little more receptive to jaguars

1628
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:33,800
Speaker 5: in Arizona had this not happened. But they're just they

1629
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:36,720
Speaker 5: just don't like talking about it anymore, rightfully, So.

1630
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 1: You look skeptically, Well, no, I'm just picturing the email

1631
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:41,600
Speaker 1: on it.

1632
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 5: That's what I'm thinking, literally literally think.

1633
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 1: We will get Yeah, I'm not saying who, but there

1634
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:48,719
Speaker 1: will be emails.

1635
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, there will be emails. It's a I mean, it's

1636
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 5: a it's a complicated, unfortunate, tawdry story, you know. It

1637
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:00,760
Speaker 5: just it's just I think there were a lot of

1638
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 5: people who meant well and things just went bad.

1639
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 1: But but I mean, just just to talk shop a

1640
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 1: little bit, not even about jaguars, just to talk shop

1641
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 1: a little bit. The the as a writer whatever, yeah,

1642
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 1: podcast or writer researcher, the why do you got to

1643
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 1: go bringing this up? Thing? Right? I understand it. But

1644
01:33:25,240 --> 01:33:28,679
Speaker 1: it's like the answer is kind of like because because right,

1645
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 1: so I should apology.

1646
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

1647
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 1: It's like, because it mattered, It mattered, Yeah, mattered, matters,

1648
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 1: It matters.

1649
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:40,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a big, big

1650
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:43,600
Speaker 5: deal and a lot of a lot of jaguar biologists

1651
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:46,440
Speaker 5: were like, I didn't give a shit about a geriatric

1652
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 5: old jaguar that died in Arizona. But but because.

1653
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 1: You know, but it's also the cover of the only

1654
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 1: one in the reality.

1655
01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:59,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it was the only one in the country

1656
01:33:59,400 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 5: at that time.

1657
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:03,160
Speaker 1: So trust me, if that if they had hooked a

1658
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 1: mountain lion and it died, we would have been talking

1659
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 1: about it. We wouldn't know. But it's like the only one.

1660
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: There's just I mean, you can't well and like bad

1661
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:17,560
Speaker 1: stuff happens. I have a dear friend who I'm not

1662
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:19,040
Speaker 1: gonna name his name because what he said to me

1663
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 1: in private. He said this one time he was doing

1664
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:24,280
Speaker 1: a mark and recapture project. I'm not gonna tell you

1665
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: what kind of because people will put it together. He's

1666
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: doing a market recaptured project with with with wildlife, he said.

1667
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:37,000
Speaker 1: His advisor once said to him, if you're not killing shit,

1668
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 1: you're not working hard. Wow, because he initially was like

1669
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:49,639
Speaker 1: so afraid of and he's supposed to be getting collars, yeah,

1670
01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 1: on right, and he was so afraid that it was crippling.

1671
01:34:55,200 --> 01:35:00,400
Speaker 1: And eventually someone said that if you're not if you're

1672
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,120
Speaker 1: not killing seff, you're not doing it. It's hands on work. Yeah,

1673
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:05,760
Speaker 1: it's like you got there's an inherent meaning, there's like

1674
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:11,560
Speaker 1: an inherent risk. Yeah, that becomes very different. One. There's one.

1675
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 1: There's one. It's a different conversation.

1676
01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 5: Well, the protocol for capturing jaguars in for instance, Brazil

1677
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:20,000
Speaker 5: is like super complicated.

1678
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:20,479
Speaker 1: Sure.

1679
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, And if you're going to do if you're going

1680
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 5: to do a capturing coloring program, which I was part of.

1681
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:27,760
Speaker 1: You thought you were talking about.

1682
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 5: Seeing this magnificent jaguar, you know, just behind the glass,

1683
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:32,759
Speaker 5: and how it made you feel.

1684
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: You know, we had prepared.

1685
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:40,240
Speaker 5: Night after night after night for the chance of capturing

1686
01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:43,880
Speaker 5: a jaguar, and when it finally happened, no one had

1687
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:47,800
Speaker 5: ever told me about what an emotional experience it would be.

1688
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 5: When they presented that jaguar and laid them on the

1689
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:55,920
Speaker 5: back you know, of the truck and said, okay, now

1690
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:57,559
Speaker 5: you can touch that jaguar.

1691
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1692
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 5: I mean I still still like, I still get a

1693
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:03,400
Speaker 5: little shaky thinking about it.

1694
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:04,760
Speaker 1: It was just like, you know.

1695
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 5: As the jaguars breathing, like touching, you know, touching the

1696
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 5: belly and just moving my hand, you know, moving my

1697
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 5: hand along the jaguar and the chail.

1698
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: Trying to get one of those teeth out. You would

1699
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:23,680
Speaker 1: love jaguar too, to hang from their neck. But it

1700
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 1: was really like he's yeah, so, I mean, but that

1701
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 1: was that was pretty laid a hand on, laid a

1702
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 1: hand on one. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty and that's

1703
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: gotta feel just like muscle man, just complete muscle.

1704
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, like the hind quarters you know that's oh man, Yeah,

1705
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 5: just solid muscle, solid muscle.

1706
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:51,720
Speaker 1: That's cool that he's breathing, you know.

1707
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was pretty pretty special.

1708
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: Exp what's a jaguar smell like?

1709
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:03,679
Speaker 5: Just nothing, no fact, And that jaguar oddly didn't smell.

1710
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:08,679
Speaker 5: But there's this guy named Eduardo Correo in Costa Rica

1711
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:12,559
Speaker 5: who said he was talking about how elusive jaguars are,

1712
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:16,120
Speaker 5: you know, cryptic, and he could he said he could

1713
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:19,919
Speaker 5: be crawling through the jungle and he knew that jaguar

1714
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 5: was close because his trans he because his his receiver.

1715
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:28,800
Speaker 5: He was getting beeps. And he said what he does is,

1716
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 5: he said, you know, jaguar could be three feet away

1717
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 5: from me, you and you wouldn't see him. He'd listen

1718
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 5: for the monkeys, or he'd.

1719
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:38,320
Speaker 1: Use his nose. Oh, you're kidding me.

1720
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 5: No, he said, jaguars reek, so he would use his

1721
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,600
Speaker 5: nose and smell them out.

1722
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 1: Huh. Johnny got to do that with lions. Oh you

1723
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: did well, collared lions and y'all. He was saying It's amazing, man,

1724
01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 1: Like tell him, like, you get close to that sucker

1725
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:53,360
Speaker 1: and you don't know he's there.

1726
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 7: Oh that yeah, I thought you were talking about the

1727
01:37:56,479 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 7: part where we had him drugged and then we're handling them.

1728
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:02,280
Speaker 1: Oh no, you're like letting me get this close.

1729
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:05,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, but no, we he was doing a study where

1730
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:11,439
Speaker 7: he was basically seeing if he repeated hazing would cause like,

1731
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:15,799
Speaker 7: would be a deterrent for mountain lions proximity to humans.

1732
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 2: Right, oh yeah, if that makes sense. In the one

1733
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:20,759
Speaker 2: broad brushstroke and so to do.

1734
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 7: That, they were collaring them and then walk once they

1735
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:28,640
Speaker 7: had him collared, walking towards known locations of lions, coincidentally

1736
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 7: playing the Meat Eater podcast at eighty decibels on a speaker,

1737
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:36,040
Speaker 7: and then he's watching the GPS as he walks towards it,

1738
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 7: and he's like, okay, we're at fifty meters, we're at

1739
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 7: thirty meters and the closest one we got to I

1740
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:45,200
Speaker 7: think was twelve And I'm like, are we going to

1741
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:45,920
Speaker 7: keep going?

1742
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: And he's like, no, at this point, we can stop.

1743
01:38:49,320 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 2: It's there.

1744
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:53,320
Speaker 7: And what was amazing is that it's literally right there.

1745
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 7: He says, it's in that cops of trees and he goes, oh,

1746
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 7: now it's moving and you're looking right there, and you

1747
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 7: ever see ith you never see the cat?

1748
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:06,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, so amazing. Yeah that's great, Yeah, so amazing.

1749
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:09,439
Speaker 1: Are you to retire now? Oh?

1750
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 5: Man, No, you know, I'm a writer. I can't I'll

1751
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:20,280
Speaker 5: retire and I'm pushing up daisies here. I'm not sure,

1752
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:23,040
Speaker 5: you know, that's a good question. Usually I should have

1753
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 5: a book, you know, another book project ready to go,

1754
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:26,759
Speaker 5: but I don't.

1755
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: Looking for that plane. Is this for the hell of it?

1756
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 5: Looking looking for that plane is about, you know, a

1757
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 5: passion project.

1758
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was not a book I assumed as a

1759
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:38,559
Speaker 1: book project.

1760
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:41,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, it could be, you know, it

1761
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 5: could be like a long form story or something like that.

1762
01:39:44,479 --> 01:39:46,160
Speaker 5: But I'm not sure if it's a book project. But

1763
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,479
Speaker 5: I'd love to write about New Guinea again. Maybe maybe

1764
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:51,520
Speaker 5: next book will take me back to Alaska.

1765
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. I got a few ideas.

1766
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:57,800
Speaker 5: But this book, this book because well for a lot

1767
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:02,479
Speaker 5: of reasons, because of COVID. Actually, the the guy who

1768
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:05,280
Speaker 5: filled it, who became the new Alan Rabinowitz, who was

1769
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,639
Speaker 5: a great friend of Alan Rabinowitz, a guy named Howard Quigley.

1770
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 1: He died in the middle of my research and it

1771
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 1: just you know what he did cancer too.

1772
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:22,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, And so this project took me way

1773
01:40:22,120 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 5: longer than it should have, and it became ultimately it

1774
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 5: became a passion project, you know, not a not a

1775
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:30,679
Speaker 5: not a pain project.

1776
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you spent much time.

1777
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:37,160
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, and some you know, not unnecessarily, but necessarily.

1778
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, like the the economics that makes sense.

1779
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, which you know a lot of writers will

1780
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:45,920
Speaker 5: tell you these days. It's hard hard to make for

1781
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:47,360
Speaker 5: the economics to make sense.

1782
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:49,760
Speaker 1: But you know, I got a couple of ideas. But

1783
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, we'll we'll see it's hit me at one.

1784
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:52,920
Speaker 1: I'll tell you if it's a good one or not.

1785
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,160
Speaker 1: I was thinking tons of time right now. Yeah, okay,

1786
01:40:57,400 --> 01:41:00,679
Speaker 1: I was thinking i'd tell the don't give it away,

1787
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 1: and if it's a cut it out of the podcast.

1788
01:41:05,880 --> 01:41:07,800
Speaker 1: I better not talk. I better not say. Give me

1789
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:08,120
Speaker 1: a hint.

1790
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 5: Alaska.

1791
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:15,439
Speaker 1: That's idea about as vague as yeah, the collapse of

1792
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:18,800
Speaker 1: the Yukon salmon collapse. Yeah, that's it. That's it.

1793
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 5: That's a great story.

1794
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: I got it. Well, that is no, but that's a

1795
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 1: great story. So should do a book on that.

1796
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:27,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, somebody should. That's you know, I know a lot

1797
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 5: of guys who ran fish wheels on on on the

1798
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:32,000
Speaker 5: Yukon and.

1799
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: They're you know, you know what the answer is that

1800
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:38,559
Speaker 1: they're leaning toward yeah, hat trees. Oh is that right? Really?

1801
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:42,640
Speaker 1: In Alaska of all places, that's the political that's the

1802
01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:45,320
Speaker 1: that's what they're coming in with, is like, oh that's

1803
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 1: easy hat tries.

1804
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 7: Wow, that's the fix, not the that's not the reason.

1805
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 1: It's it's it's like because it's the whole thing of

1806
01:41:56,160 --> 01:42:03,400
Speaker 1: it's it's just like, what's the problem everything m hammer

1807
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:05,960
Speaker 1: and fishing, the see like hammer and fishing to see

1808
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:09,719
Speaker 1: intercept fisheries, water temperatures, it's like it's just too big

1809
01:42:09,760 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 1: and too it's it's it's you can't unravel it. Everybody's

1810
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: got it's this. It's that there's a real problem. I mean,

1811
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:20,320
Speaker 1: it seems to be that there's a real problem with

1812
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: like intercept fisheries, like hitting those fish, hitting hitting those

1813
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 1: fish before they're in the water in the fresh so

1814
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, and they got like even like subsistence people

1815
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 1: like subsistence people living along the river, like Native alask

1816
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 1: and subsistence fishermen aren't able to put their wheels out.

1817
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:41,519
Speaker 1: It's bad. And I guess like the way that they're

1818
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, as people at high levels in the state

1819
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:51,200
Speaker 1: look at they're like, why it's easy fishery setcheries.

1820
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:55,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well Alaska, yeah right, I mean the public

1821
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:57,559
Speaker 5: lands issue up there is pretty dire now.

1822
01:42:57,439 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 1: Too, right now it is, yeah, right now it is. Yeah. Alright,

1823
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:13,240
Speaker 1: that's a good book. Thanks, come back out and finish it. Yeah,

1824
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:19,559
Speaker 1: tell us what you find out. How I save the

1825
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:23,360
Speaker 1: sam I think cover Yeah, yeah, we can get it.

1826
01:43:23,400 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 1: We can get on this right now. I'll blur it

1827
01:43:25,080 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 1: right now. Help book. You guys are amazing. Hell yeah,

1828
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 1: oh throw well James Campbell, thanks for coming on.

1829
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:36,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I appreciate it.

1830
01:43:36,280 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 1: Thank you. I got one more for you. What's your

1831
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:41,040
Speaker 1: favorite book that you wrote, Like one where the fight

1832
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:41,839
Speaker 1: of your man.

1833
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:45,120
Speaker 5: At the height of them. I like to think I'm

1834
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:46,919
Speaker 5: still at the height of my powers.

1835
01:43:49,160 --> 01:43:50,760
Speaker 1: You know, I wrote a book, say this one because

1836
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:51,760
Speaker 1: it's for sale right now?

1837
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:52,599
Speaker 5: Well, that's true.

1838
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:57,719
Speaker 1: I mean that, Thank you. Apparently I'm a really marketing

1839
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 1: firm as well. Publisher's gonna kill me. Yeah, I mean,

1840
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: this was a.

1841
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:07,400
Speaker 5: Real passion project. There's no question about it. But you know,

1842
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:10,320
Speaker 5: I love you know, I love writing all my books.

1843
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 5: I got another one about my daughter and I doing

1844
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:17,439
Speaker 5: a bunch of stuff in Alaska, including building a cabin

1845
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 5: with my cousin I'm ocorth and you know, the Arctic

1846
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:24,519
Speaker 5: National Wildlife Refuge. That was a particularly personal one. But yeah,

1847
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:26,479
Speaker 5: all of them, you know, you know, audios. I mean,

1848
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:30,719
Speaker 5: you're a writer, it's all you know, it's all really

1849
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:35,640
Speaker 5: meaningful stuff, all of them you do, and then when

1850
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 5: you're done, you're like kick them out of the house,

1851
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,120
Speaker 5: like I'm.

1852
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:47,840
Speaker 1: Tired of that book. Yeah. Yeah. The latest is A

1853
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:52,320
Speaker 1: Heart of the Jaguar, the extraordinary conservation effort to save

1854
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:57,639
Speaker 1: the America's legendary cat. And then if you're into whiskey,

1855
01:44:57,640 --> 01:45:01,200
Speaker 1: whiskey too, I highly recommend Ghost Mountain. Thank you, Ghost

1856
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: Mountain Boys. Right, I can't see the covers, the proper

1857
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:09,840
Speaker 1: title Ghost Mountain, Ghost Mountain Boys, about the you know,

1858
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 1: the Pacific Theater during World War Two, particularly the Battle

1859
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:17,519
Speaker 1: of New for New Guinea. Oh, that rips your heart

1860
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:21,320
Speaker 1: out there, That still still rips my heart out. A

1861
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: lot of suffering, a lot of heroism, a lot of sacrifice.

1862
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on my pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

1863
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:29,200
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, Thanks Jams,