WEBVTT - Rod Sadler: Depraved Obsession 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.279 This story contains adult content and language, along with references 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.480 to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:20.000 If an investigator at some agency reads this book, or 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.000 a parent who has a lost child that they haven't 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.480 seen for forty years, maybe there's a connection. 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.959 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.760 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.640 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.640 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.920 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.720 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:00.200 and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious through 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.920 crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.920 good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:12.600 unpublished details behind their stories. For more than a decade, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:17.039 a serial killer stalked teenage boys in Michigan. Ronald Lloyd 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.720 Bailey was eventually caught, but the story became more complicated 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.039 because of Bailey's experience at one of the state's most 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.520 respected psychiatric hospitals. Author Rod Sadler tells me the story 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:35.160 in his book depraved obsession. Tell me briefly about your 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.800 background with law enforcement, because I do think you know, 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.080 unlike other authors, this gives you such a unique perspective 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.160 of a kind of a complicated case. 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.640 Well, I was a police officer for thirty years here 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.040 in Michigan. I started in nineteen eighty one. I worked 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.680 for some small agencies for about the first five years 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.280 of my career, and then I was hired by the 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.480 Eton County Sheriff's Office, which is the west side of Lansing, Michigan, 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.320 which is our state capitol. And I worked at Eton 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.079 County for twenty five years until I retired in twenty twelve. 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.400 As a police officer working for Eaton County, I was 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.080 promoted to the position of sergeant in nineteen ninety nine. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.960 I also was our police composite artist and our lead 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:27.000 traffic crash investigator for all of our fatality crashes. And 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.080 I was also an emergency manager. So I kind of 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:31.800 had a storied career. 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.560 I guess, if you will now, does that include investigating murders? 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:38.760 I don't know what the role of sergeant would be. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.840 Well, as a road patrol sergeant, I supervised the shift 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.880 certainly if I or a deputy responded to, let's say 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.000 a homicide call, I would, as a sergeant, you know, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.640 make sure that the detectives are on the way and 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.320 the scene is secure, and we have enough people to 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.480 do this, that and the other things. So so I'm 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.160 familiar with procedures and things like that with homicides. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.760 Set the scene for me, you know, if we're talking 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:13.960 about southeast Michigan starting in the seventies, when there's no 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.880 discovery made, because this goes on for a very long time, 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.799 set the scene for when things start happening with these 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.680 boys in the area. What is the area like and 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.440 who are the people who were in that area. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.000 It doesn't start with this particular kidnapping, but this particular 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.680 kidnapping is the highlight of the book, and that's the 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.760 kidnapping of Sean Moore, a thirteen year old boy who 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:40.200 lived just south of Brighton, Michigan. And Brighton, Michigan, for 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:46.000 all intents and purposes, is about halfway between Detroit and Lancing. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.360 Lancing is more centralized, our state capital. Obviously, Detroit is 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.320 the southeast corner of the state, and so about halfway 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.600 between Lansing and Detroit is Brighton, Michigan. Brighton, Michigan at 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.800 that time, in nineteen eighty five, i've was sort of 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.920 a hub for young professionals and senior citizens that commuted 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.480 either to Lancing or to Detroit to work. And it 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.760 was a very quiet community, not a lot of crime 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:18.560 and not a lot of violent crime especially, and that's 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.000 where this all took place. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.600 I have to think, based on the demographic that you're 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.000 talking about that this would be a low crime area 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:25.960 in the seventies. 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.080 It is a very low crime area. Yeah, it's between 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:35.120 Lancing and Detroit. You know, Detroit huge city and Lancing 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:40.720 the state capitol, busy city. But Brighton, Michigan really was 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.360 you know, the downtown area was about six blocks long 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.240 at what and I put right in the book, it 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:52.440 wasn't unusual for if you're driving down the main street 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.880 in Brighton to waive several times at people because everybody 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:57.480 seemed to know everybody else. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.600 Tell me about Sean Moore, thirteen years old? What kind 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:02.279 of kid is he? 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.200 From what you know, Sean Moore is a very bright, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.360 thirteen year old boy who lived with his parents and 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.120 his older brother. His older brother was about thirteen years 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.839 older than he was Sean was set to start the 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.680 seventh grade. It was summer break. He was just your 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.760 typical bright teenager. He was liked by everybody. All of 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.719 his teachers just loved him to death. And he was 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.039 just a very bright, typical thirteen year old boy who 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.800 had everything you can imagine a thirteen year old boy 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.520 would have in his bedroom, baseball cards, a sign on 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.400 his door that said this room is protected by an 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.560 attack moose. You know, just silly things like that. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.919 This is thirteen year old boys in Michigan, I think exactly. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.880 Yeah, So he was just a very bright, young, well 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:55.599 liked thirteen year old boy. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.919 Set the scene for me what happens before Sean disappears 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:02.479 and win also. 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.400 Well, it was Labor Day weekend in nineteen eighty five, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.600 August thirty first, I believe it was a Sunday, if 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:15.920 I'm not mistaken, and Sean was doing some yard work 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.920 with his dad. They needed to get to lawn mode, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.840 and during the evening they were going to go see 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.279 a movie. The entire family was going to go see 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.200 Back to the Future I think had just been released. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.400 Sean liked to use the riding lawnmower, but next to 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.719 the house there was apparently a small hill or something, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.680 so his dad would mow that and then Sean would 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.840 use the riding lawnmore and mow the rest of the lawn. Well, 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.160 the riding lawnmower broke that afternoon, and so his dad 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.200 began to try to fix it, and Sean was waiting 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.120 and waiting and waiting, and he was hot. They'd been 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.359 out in the sun for several hours, and so he 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.919 asked his parents, Hey, can I jump on my bike 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.840 and ride a mile up to the Pump and Pantry 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.120 Party convenience store gas station. They gave him permission to 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.000 They were very strict about him leaving the subdivision, but 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.640 they did allow him to go, and so he jumped 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.360 on his bike and he rode up to the Pump 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.320 and Pantry Party store to buy an anw root peer. 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.560 Some friends of his saw him at the store, saw 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.560 him purchase the root per and that's where the killer 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:26.480 first spotted him. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:31.520 Also tell me what happens next? When do his parents 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:33.559 figure out that something's wrong. 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:38.640 Well, after several hours, Sean hadn't returned, and his brother 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.320 became quite concerned and decided to go look for him. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.440 Figured that maybe he was dawdling up at the up 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.080 at the pump and pantry for some reason. And so 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:53.800 as his brother leaves the subdivision and begins to drive 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.000 up this service road called Whittemore Lake Road, or they 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.560 also referred to it as old US twenty three because 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.000 before the highway was put in, it was US twenty three. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.440 So he leaves the subdivision and literally less than a 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.559 mile up the road, he can see police cars pulled 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.000 to the side of the road, and he pulls up 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.280 and he sees his brother's bike, and so he asks 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.320 to speak to the Greenolk Township police officer on the scene, 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.800 and he says, that's my brother's bike. He said, there 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.240 must have been an accident, and the officer said said 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:29.880 to him, he said, well, why do you think that 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.280 there was an accident? He said, well, my brother's bike's here. 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.600 You guys are all here. And it was then that 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:38.840 they had to take him aside and say it it 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.400 looks as if your brother has been abducted. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.400 How did that happen? Did somebody call and say we 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.920 saw a man take this boy, because you know, bike 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.240 laying there wouldn't be alarming to most people. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.120 Yes, actually, there were several witnesses, but the main witness 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:58.680 was on the highway. Sean was riding northbound up to 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:03.520 the party store. The witnesses were driving southbound on the 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:08.120 freeway next to this service road. The first witness was 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.439 trying to get to the University of Michigan Hospital because 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.720 his daughter had been injured in a farm accident. So 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.200 he was on his way to ann Arbor and he 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:21.240 glanced over and he saw a man forcing a young 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.520 boy back toward a vehicle, and for some reason, his 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:30.080 mind clicked and he knew something was wrong. It was 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.280 just an instinct, and he said to his fiance, who 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.640 was in the vehicle with him, He said, I need 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.440 to get to the next exit, and we need to 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.480 get back and try to get a license plate number, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.760 because he saw that Sean was visibly upset and it 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:47.040 didn't look right to him. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.600 Wow, all from just going he's driving, You got to think, 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.840 what fifty sixty miles an hour? Maybe less, I don't know. 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.079 Yeah, back in eighty five, the speed limited, I think 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.600 the national speed limit was fifty five miles an hour 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.079 on the freeway, and I I think that he said 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.800 that his cruise control was set at like sixty and 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.880 so yeah, So for an instant he glances over and 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.000 sees this, and he knows he has to get back 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.079 to try to get a license plate number. And by 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.679 the time he hits the next exit and turns around, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.840 comes back up the service road, all he finds is 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:22.240 the bike. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.120 Now, you say there was another witness or two also 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:25.440 to this. 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.960 Yes, there was another witness, and she was traveling northbound 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.600 on the service road, and so she's coming up just 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:39.520 as Sean is riding his bike, and he's looking over 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:44.079 his shoulder at a man who's walking very fast toward him. 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.800 And the bike was a little bit big for Sean. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.520 He hadn't quite grown into it, and so he was 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.839 trying to steady the bike. His handlebars were moving back 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.960 and forth as he glanced over his shoulder at the 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.840 guy coming up to him. This particular witness felt something 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.040 was a miss maybe, but what she really noticed was 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.559 the jeep that the man had come from. He had 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:13.160 gotten out of a nineteen eighty five AMC jeep. That's 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.000 significant in this case because the first witness who glanced 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.720 over and was trying to get back to the scene, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:25.439 thought that the vehicle involved was a GMC pickup the 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:30.400 second witness who saw the jeep, she didn't get a 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.600 chance to report it for a day or two, and 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.600 so for that first day or two police were looking 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.800 for a GMC pickup when they should have been looking 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.240 for a jeep CJ seven. No. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.760 Yeah, was there anybody else who saw this? 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.000 There were some other witnesses that came forward that were 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.560 on the highway also that identified the killer later that 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.560 saw the same thing that the first witness saw him, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.960 forcing a young boy back toward a jeep. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.560 Does everybody go to the media at this point and 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.280 there's apbs happening everywhere? What's the response? 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.240 Well, the first response is the first witness who sees 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.000 the bike laying on the side of the road. He 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.480 knows he's got to find a police officer, so he 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.760 drives up to the next exit, which is the Pump 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.440 and Pantry party store, and he's going to try to 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.480 find a cop. Well, on the other side of the 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.520 intersection is a Green Oak Township police officer by the 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.800 name of Dave Ostrom, and Dave Ostrom is getting ready 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.960 to get off his shift. He's got about forty five 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.640 minutes left, and he looks up and there's a pickup 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.640 facing him on the other side of the intersection, flashing 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.439 his headlights at him. So he pulls up next to 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.880 the pickup and the witness says, hey, I think I 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.680 just saw a young boy getting kidnapped, and so Dave 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.520 immediately gets him to the side of the road starts 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.600 taking information, putting it out over the radio. And about 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:04.880 a mile north of there is Livingston County detective who's 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:10.040 working in uniform for the holiday weekend taking marine complaints, 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.080 and he hears the information go out over the radio. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.360 So he gets on the radio and says, hey, I'm 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.520 just a mile north of there. Have you been down 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.720 to the scene yet, and Ostrom says no. He says, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.680 I'm still taking information. So Ed Moore, this detective from 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:31.200 Livingston County, Michigan, runs down to the scene and finds 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.120 the bike on the side of the road. So quickly 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.920 information's put out over the radio. People are on the lookout, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.760 but they're on the lookout for a GMC pickup and 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.200 not an AMC jeep. As the information's going out, the 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.880 Michigan State Police, who have a post or a substation 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.199 if you will, north of the scene, they get the information. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.800 They begin to call the media. And as soon as 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.880 that story hit the media, the phone started ringing tips 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.360 and people who thought they saw things, and so it 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.199 was a quick response, a very quick response to get 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.920 the media involved. And I think that's why this case 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.840 was resolved so quickly. 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.240 I have a jurisdiction question, and you were obviously the 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.480 right person to ask. I usually don't ask stuff like this. 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.560 So you've got Livingston County, right, and the detective and 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.040 the man I can't remember what Dave's is he an officer? 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:29.640 I can't remember. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.360 Yeah, he's with a small township jurisdiction called the green 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.160 Oak Township Police Department. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.400 So you've got two different departments working, and then the 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:44.920 Michigan State Police in this particular case, Sean Moore, did 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.600 everybody work well together? Because you said this was a 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.000 quick resolution, not a good one, but a quick one. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.920 Yeah. What happened was the following day they formed a 0:14:53.960 --> 0:15:00.520 task for us where officers from green Oak Township, Livingston County, 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:06.200 the Michigan State Police, the FBI, the Brighton Police Department, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.240 all those agencies came together. And I have to tell 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.920 you that it was really unprecedented because law enforcement back 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.080 in the mid eighties, and prior to that, agencies held 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.600 a lot of information very close and by that I 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.080 mean they didn't share it a lot. In this particular case, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.560 you had local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies who 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.800 came together as a task force and were desperately, literally 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.320 desperately trying to find Sean Moore before something happened to him. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:44.080 They worked so closely together it was literally almost unheard 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:45.280 of at that time. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.280 And this is the FBI who's getting involved. 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.960 The FBI was also involved. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.680 Yes, what triggers that? Is that a missing child that 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.160 is clearly the victim of abduction or is it there 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.880 on the highway or what makes it okay for the 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:00.000 FBI to come in? 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.000 Well, I think because it was a kidnapping of a child. 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:09.040 Michigan had gone through a series of child killings in 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.200 Oakland County back in the late seventies, seventy six and 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:19.440 seventy seven unsolved. There were four unsolved child abductions and 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.680 murders where the children were literally held for several days 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.800 before they were murdered. And that was fresh in the 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.760 memory of a lot of people in Michigan. And so 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.960 when the FBI gets you know, here's a report of 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.240 a child being abducted, and they're absolutely certain it's not 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.200 a random parental discipline situation where a father's taking his 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:48.200 kid back home for misbehaving or whatever, then certainly, yeah, 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:49.880 they're going to get involved immediately. 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.280 Okay, so we have a task force now that involves 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.000 several different departments, and then of course the FBI and 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.280 the state police. And you've got the media alerted and 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.840 now you've got all of these calls eighty five so 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.879 there's no social media. You've got all these calls coming 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.679 in to the police station with all of these tips. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.399 What does this task force tackle first to try to 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.760 get Sean back, because I'm sure there's just incredible alarm, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:16.800 maybe even all over the state at this point. 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.800 Well, they start to interview that reinterview the witnesses to 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.680 get more detailed statements, and they also look at they 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.960 contact the American Motors Corporation AMC. If you're very young, 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.880 you probably don't realize that AMC made the Jeep at 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.680 that time, they made the Pacer. I think they made 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.359 the Gremlin, but they also made the Jeep. And so 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.520 the task force contacted American Motors Corporation and they got 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:46.119 a list of the vehicle identification numbers of every Jeep 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.840 sold between like nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty five, and 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.119 then they were in the process of taking those vehicle 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.200 identification numbers and they would run those through the law 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.720 Enforcement Information Network and find out who the owners were. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.719 And then the process would be to go to all 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.840 of those owners and say, hey, where were you on 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.800 Labor Day weekend? And that's how it all started the investigation. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.840 Really, how would it go? Rod? Now do you think 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.720 it would be checking license plates at the digital electric 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.920 tolls if the car passed through a toll, of course, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.400 looking at CCTV at the convenience store, anything like that. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.520 And at this point they just have the make of 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.160 the car, the jeep, And I'm assuming the woman who 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.920 came forward maybe was she able to say it looked 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.800 like Michigan plates. This wasn't like a Florida plate or something. 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.000 Actually, yeah, they were able to determine it was definitely 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.879 a Michigan plate. And she was absolutely certain of the 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.800 make and model of the jeep because her boyfriend had 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.720 one that was identical to it. It was a Renegade model. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.879 It said Renegade right on the front of the jeep, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.600 and when the detectives took her to a jeep dealership, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.000 she pointed one out that was identical to it. Okay, 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.399 so they were absolutely certain. Again, it took a couple 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:16.160 of days for them to get that information, but once 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.000 they had it, she was absolutely certain, no question about it. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.040 What other resources did they have at that time as 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.760 far as locating a vehicle, Like I said, today you 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.240 would be looking at toll records that would have come 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.840 to you very quickly, CCTV stuff like that, But back 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.679 then it was just simply you know, witnesses and then 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.479 the database of registered owners of these jeeps. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.720 Absolutely, their hands really were almost tied, if you will. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.280 If you compare it to today's law enforcement in social media, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.159 Oh my gosh, if there's a police agency or a 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.720 public service agency out there that doesn't have a website 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.240 or some way to relay information for notification to the public, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.320 way behind the times. Yet back then, you're exactly right, 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.360 what did they have. They had the television, news, they 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.159 had radio, you know, they had computers back then to 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:17.000 relay information quickly to police agencies around the state and 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.440 things like that. But still they were looking for the 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.400 wrong car for two days, so it was very difficult. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.119 What did they come up with When they have this search, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.680 they're searching through what three or you were saying, three 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.399 or four counties, including Livingstone, looking for the owner of 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:33.600 this particular car. 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.639 They are they're looking for the jeep. By this time, 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.639 once the task force tasts a couple of days to 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.680 get up and running, by that time, they've determined they're 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.840 looking for a jeep and not a GMC pickup. And 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:51.040 so they begin to run these vins through the law 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.159 Enforcement Information Network. They're getting the names of the owners 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.200 and they're contact and the owners. Well in the middle 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.600 of this big list of vin owners jeep owners is 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.480 the name of the killer and he's just another person 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:07.920 on the list that they've got to go track down 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.880 and interview. But what happens is as they're doing that, 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.160 the task force is up and run. In twenty four 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.720 to seven and about eleven o'clock at night, the FBI 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.640 is man in the task force headquarters and they get 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.359 a phone call from the Livonia Police Department. And Lavonia 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:31.000 is a suburb of Detroit, and the Livonia officer says 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:35.240 to the FBI agent, he says, hey, you guys really 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.000 need to take a look at this guy. We've got 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.720 a guy here in our jurisdiction that does that exact 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:46.320 same thing. He kidnaps kids off their bicycles, he sexually 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.120 assaults them, and you really need to take a look 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.320 at him. I'm paraphrasing, but basically that's the information that 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.679 he gives him. So the FBI agent Jess Lopez is 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.000 his name. I interviewed him for the book. He said, yeah, 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.360 he said, let's not wait, let's go track him down 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:06.120 right now. So they go track down this guy that 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.760 Lavonia Police Department has a record of and they interview him, 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.080 and that's when it all begins to unravel. 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.880 So Lavogna police tell the task force, we have this guy. 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.280 You need to look at him. He snatched kids, you know, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.680 off bikes off the street and assaults them. How many 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.479 days into this is that happening? And I'm also wondering 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:29.479 how many people do they have to call about this? 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:30.400 AMC JEEP. 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:32.960 Well, I don't know how big the list was, but 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.040 I guess you could imagine it's got to be probably 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:40.200 a thousand people or more. I would think they decided 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.359 to go interview the killer based on what Lavonia has said. 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:48.840 Unbeknownst to them, he's already been interviewed by somebody on 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.359 the task force earlier that particular day, and this was 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.320 within three or four days after the kidnapping. It happened 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:58.160 very quickly, it really did. 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:00.960 And it was about the fact that he's an owner 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.000 of an AMC jeep exactly. 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:04.800 He was just a name on the list. 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:07.360 You know what I wondered when you were talking about that. 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.120 You know, in a second, we can give his name 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:12.320 and you can give me some information. But I was thinking, 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:14.639 you know, his last name starts with a B, and 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:17.840 I wondered if they just alphabetized that list, and he 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:21.040 came up pretty early, and that's why he got interviewed early, 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.000 because he's, you know, at the top of the alphabetized list. 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:25.360 I don't know if that's how it worked, but. 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.560 Well, you may be exactly right, because the vehicle identification 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.720 number is all they had for that list of jeep owners, 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.840 and so maybe they did. You know, I never thought 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:41.720 to ask them that, but you may very well be right. 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:44.119