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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: If an investigator at some agency reads this book, or

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Speaker 2: a parent who has a lost child that they haven't

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Speaker 2: seen for forty years, maybe there's a connection.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious through

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. For more than a decade,

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Speaker 1: a serial killer stalked teenage boys in Michigan. Ronald Lloyd

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Speaker 1: Bailey was eventually caught, but the story became more complicated

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Speaker 1: because of Bailey's experience at one of the state's most

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Speaker 1: respected psychiatric hospitals. Author Rod Sadler tells me the story

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Speaker 1: in his book depraved obsession. Tell me briefly about your

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Speaker 1: background with law enforcement, because I do think you know,

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Speaker 1: unlike other authors, this gives you such a unique perspective

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Speaker 1: of a kind of a complicated case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was a police officer for thirty years here

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Speaker 2: in Michigan. I started in nineteen eighty one. I worked

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Speaker 2: for some small agencies for about the first five years

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Speaker 2: of my career, and then I was hired by the

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Speaker 2: Eton County Sheriff's Office, which is the west side of Lansing, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: which is our state capitol. And I worked at Eton

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Speaker 2: County for twenty five years until I retired in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: As a police officer working for Eaton County, I was

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Speaker 2: promoted to the position of sergeant in nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: I also was our police composite artist and our lead

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Speaker 2: traffic crash investigator for all of our fatality crashes. And

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Speaker 2: I was also an emergency manager. So I kind of

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Speaker 2: had a storied career.

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Speaker 1: I guess, if you will now, does that include investigating murders?

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the role of sergeant would be.

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Speaker 2: Well, as a road patrol sergeant, I supervised the shift

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Speaker 2: certainly if I or a deputy responded to, let's say

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Speaker 2: a homicide call, I would, as a sergeant, you know,

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Speaker 2: make sure that the detectives are on the way and

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Speaker 2: the scene is secure, and we have enough people to

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Speaker 2: do this, that and the other things. So so I'm

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Speaker 2: familiar with procedures and things like that with homicides.

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Speaker 1: Set the scene for me, you know, if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about southeast Michigan starting in the seventies, when there's no

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Speaker 1: discovery made, because this goes on for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: set the scene for when things start happening with these

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Speaker 1: boys in the area. What is the area like and

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Speaker 1: who are the people who were in that area.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't start with this particular kidnapping, but this particular

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Speaker 2: kidnapping is the highlight of the book, and that's the

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Speaker 2: kidnapping of Sean Moore, a thirteen year old boy who

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Speaker 2: lived just south of Brighton, Michigan. And Brighton, Michigan, for

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Speaker 2: all intents and purposes, is about halfway between Detroit and Lancing.

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Speaker 2: Lancing is more centralized, our state capital. Obviously, Detroit is

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Speaker 2: the southeast corner of the state, and so about halfway

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Speaker 2: between Lansing and Detroit is Brighton, Michigan. Brighton, Michigan at

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Speaker 2: that time, in nineteen eighty five, i've was sort of

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Speaker 2: a hub for young professionals and senior citizens that commuted

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Speaker 2: either to Lancing or to Detroit to work. And it

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Speaker 2: was a very quiet community, not a lot of crime

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Speaker 2: and not a lot of violent crime especially, and that's

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Speaker 2: where this all took place.

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Speaker 1: I have to think, based on the demographic that you're

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Speaker 1: talking about that this would be a low crime area

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Speaker 1: in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: It is a very low crime area. Yeah, it's between

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Speaker 2: Lancing and Detroit. You know, Detroit huge city and Lancing

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Speaker 2: the state capitol, busy city. But Brighton, Michigan really was

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Speaker 2: you know, the downtown area was about six blocks long

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Speaker 2: at what and I put right in the book, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't unusual for if you're driving down the main street

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Speaker 2: in Brighton to waive several times at people because everybody

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Speaker 2: seemed to know everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Sean Moore, thirteen years old? What kind

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Speaker 1: of kid is he?

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Speaker 2: From what you know, Sean Moore is a very bright,

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Speaker 2: thirteen year old boy who lived with his parents and

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Speaker 2: his older brother. His older brother was about thirteen years

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Speaker 2: older than he was Sean was set to start the

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Speaker 2: seventh grade. It was summer break. He was just your

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Speaker 2: typical bright teenager. He was liked by everybody. All of

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Speaker 2: his teachers just loved him to death. And he was

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Speaker 2: just a very bright, typical thirteen year old boy who

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Speaker 2: had everything you can imagine a thirteen year old boy

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Speaker 2: would have in his bedroom, baseball cards, a sign on

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Speaker 2: his door that said this room is protected by an

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Speaker 2: attack moose. You know, just silly things like that.

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Speaker 1: This is thirteen year old boys in Michigan, I think exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So he was just a very bright, young, well

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Speaker 2: liked thirteen year old boy.

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Speaker 1: Set the scene for me what happens before Sean disappears

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Speaker 1: and win also.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was Labor Day weekend in nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 2: August thirty first, I believe it was a Sunday, if

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Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken, and Sean was doing some yard work

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Speaker 2: with his dad. They needed to get to lawn mode,

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Speaker 2: and during the evening they were going to go see

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Speaker 2: a movie. The entire family was going to go see

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Speaker 2: Back to the Future I think had just been released.

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Speaker 2: Sean liked to use the riding lawnmower, but next to

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Speaker 2: the house there was apparently a small hill or something,

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Speaker 2: so his dad would mow that and then Sean would

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Speaker 2: use the riding lawnmore and mow the rest of the lawn. Well,

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Speaker 2: the riding lawnmower broke that afternoon, and so his dad

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Speaker 2: began to try to fix it, and Sean was waiting

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Speaker 2: and waiting and waiting, and he was hot. They'd been

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Speaker 2: out in the sun for several hours, and so he

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Speaker 2: asked his parents, Hey, can I jump on my bike

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Speaker 2: and ride a mile up to the Pump and Pantry

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Speaker 2: Party convenience store gas station. They gave him permission to

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Speaker 2: They were very strict about him leaving the subdivision, but

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Speaker 2: they did allow him to go, and so he jumped

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Speaker 2: on his bike and he rode up to the Pump

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Speaker 2: and Pantry Party store to buy an anw root peer.

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Speaker 2: Some friends of his saw him at the store, saw

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Speaker 2: him purchase the root per and that's where the killer

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Speaker 2: first spotted him.

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Speaker 1: Also tell me what happens next? When do his parents

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Speaker 1: figure out that something's wrong.

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Speaker 2: Well, after several hours, Sean hadn't returned, and his brother

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Speaker 2: became quite concerned and decided to go look for him.

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Speaker 2: Figured that maybe he was dawdling up at the up

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Speaker 2: at the pump and pantry for some reason. And so

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Speaker 2: as his brother leaves the subdivision and begins to drive

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Speaker 2: up this service road called Whittemore Lake Road, or they

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Speaker 2: also referred to it as old US twenty three because

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Speaker 2: before the highway was put in, it was US twenty three.

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Speaker 2: So he leaves the subdivision and literally less than a

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Speaker 2: mile up the road, he can see police cars pulled

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Speaker 2: to the side of the road, and he pulls up

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Speaker 2: and he sees his brother's bike, and so he asks

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Speaker 2: to speak to the Greenolk Township police officer on the scene,

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Speaker 2: and he says, that's my brother's bike. He said, there

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Speaker 2: must have been an accident, and the officer said said

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Speaker 2: to him, he said, well, why do you think that

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Speaker 2: there was an accident? He said, well, my brother's bike's here.

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Speaker 2: You guys are all here. And it was then that

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Speaker 2: they had to take him aside and say it it

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Speaker 2: looks as if your brother has been abducted.

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Speaker 1: How did that happen? Did somebody call and say we

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Speaker 1: saw a man take this boy, because you know, bike

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Speaker 1: laying there wouldn't be alarming to most people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, actually, there were several witnesses, but the main witness

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Speaker 2: was on the highway. Sean was riding northbound up to

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Speaker 2: the party store. The witnesses were driving southbound on the

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Speaker 2: freeway next to this service road. The first witness was

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Speaker 2: trying to get to the University of Michigan Hospital because

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Speaker 2: his daughter had been injured in a farm accident. So

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Speaker 2: he was on his way to ann Arbor and he

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Speaker 2: glanced over and he saw a man forcing a young

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Speaker 2: boy back toward a vehicle, and for some reason, his

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Speaker 2: mind clicked and he knew something was wrong. It was

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Speaker 2: just an instinct, and he said to his fiance, who

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Speaker 2: was in the vehicle with him, He said, I need

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Speaker 2: to get to the next exit, and we need to

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Speaker 2: get back and try to get a license plate number,

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Speaker 2: because he saw that Sean was visibly upset and it

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Speaker 2: didn't look right to him.

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Speaker 1: Wow, all from just going he's driving, You got to think,

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Speaker 1: what fifty sixty miles an hour? Maybe less, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, back in eighty five, the speed limited, I think

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Speaker 2: the national speed limit was fifty five miles an hour

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Speaker 2: on the freeway, and I I think that he said

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Speaker 2: that his cruise control was set at like sixty and

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Speaker 2: so yeah, So for an instant he glances over and

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Speaker 2: sees this, and he knows he has to get back

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Speaker 2: to try to get a license plate number. And by

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Speaker 2: the time he hits the next exit and turns around,

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Speaker 2: comes back up the service road, all he finds is

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Speaker 2: the bike.

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Speaker 1: Now, you say there was another witness or two also

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Speaker 1: to this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there was another witness, and she was traveling northbound

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Speaker 2: on the service road, and so she's coming up just

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Speaker 2: as Sean is riding his bike, and he's looking over

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Speaker 2: his shoulder at a man who's walking very fast toward him.

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Speaker 2: And the bike was a little bit big for Sean.

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Speaker 2: He hadn't quite grown into it, and so he was

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Speaker 2: trying to steady the bike. His handlebars were moving back

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Speaker 2: and forth as he glanced over his shoulder at the

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Speaker 2: guy coming up to him. This particular witness felt something

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Speaker 2: was a miss maybe, but what she really noticed was

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Speaker 2: the jeep that the man had come from. He had

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Speaker 2: gotten out of a nineteen eighty five AMC jeep. That's

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Speaker 2: significant in this case because the first witness who glanced

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Speaker 2: over and was trying to get back to the scene,

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Speaker 2: thought that the vehicle involved was a GMC pickup the

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Speaker 2: second witness who saw the jeep, she didn't get a

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Speaker 2: chance to report it for a day or two, and

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Speaker 2: so for that first day or two police were looking

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Speaker 2: for a GMC pickup when they should have been looking

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Speaker 2: for a jeep CJ seven. No.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, was there anybody else who saw this?

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Speaker 2: There were some other witnesses that came forward that were

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Speaker 2: on the highway also that identified the killer later that

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Speaker 2: saw the same thing that the first witness saw him,

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Speaker 2: forcing a young boy back toward a jeep.

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Speaker 1: Does everybody go to the media at this point and

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Speaker 1: there's apbs happening everywhere? What's the response?

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Speaker 2: Well, the first response is the first witness who sees

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Speaker 2: the bike laying on the side of the road. He

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Speaker 2: knows he's got to find a police officer, so he

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Speaker 2: drives up to the next exit, which is the Pump

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Speaker 2: and Pantry party store, and he's going to try to

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Speaker 2: find a cop. Well, on the other side of the

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Speaker 2: intersection is a Green Oak Township police officer by the

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Speaker 2: name of Dave Ostrom, and Dave Ostrom is getting ready

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Speaker 2: to get off his shift. He's got about forty five

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Speaker 2: minutes left, and he looks up and there's a pickup

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Speaker 2: facing him on the other side of the intersection, flashing

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Speaker 2: his headlights at him. So he pulls up next to

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Speaker 2: the pickup and the witness says, hey, I think I

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Speaker 2: just saw a young boy getting kidnapped, and so Dave

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Speaker 2: immediately gets him to the side of the road starts

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Speaker 2: taking information, putting it out over the radio. And about

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Speaker 2: a mile north of there is Livingston County detective who's

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Speaker 2: working in uniform for the holiday weekend taking marine complaints,

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Speaker 2: and he hears the information go out over the radio.

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Speaker 2: So he gets on the radio and says, hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: just a mile north of there. Have you been down

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Speaker 2: to the scene yet, and Ostrom says no. He says,

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Speaker 2: I'm still taking information. So Ed Moore, this detective from

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Speaker 2: Livingston County, Michigan, runs down to the scene and finds

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Speaker 2: the bike on the side of the road. So quickly

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Speaker 2: information's put out over the radio. People are on the lookout,

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Speaker 2: but they're on the lookout for a GMC pickup and

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Speaker 2: not an AMC jeep. As the information's going out, the

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Speaker 2: Michigan State Police, who have a post or a substation

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Speaker 2: if you will, north of the scene, they get the information.

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Speaker 2: They begin to call the media. And as soon as

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Speaker 2: that story hit the media, the phone started ringing tips

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Speaker 2: and people who thought they saw things, and so it

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Speaker 2: was a quick response, a very quick response to get

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Speaker 2: the media involved. And I think that's why this case

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Speaker 2: was resolved so quickly.

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Speaker 1: I have a jurisdiction question, and you were obviously the

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Speaker 1: right person to ask. I usually don't ask stuff like this.

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Speaker 1: So you've got Livingston County, right, and the detective and

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Speaker 1: the man I can't remember what Dave's is he an officer?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's with a small township jurisdiction called the green

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Speaker 2: Oak Township Police Department.

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Speaker 1: So you've got two different departments working, and then the

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Speaker 1: Michigan State Police in this particular case, Sean Moore, did

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Speaker 1: everybody work well together? Because you said this was a

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Speaker 1: quick resolution, not a good one, but a quick one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What happened was the following day they formed a

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Speaker 2: task for us where officers from green Oak Township, Livingston County,

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Speaker 2: the Michigan State Police, the FBI, the Brighton Police Department,

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Speaker 2: all those agencies came together. And I have to tell

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Speaker 2: you that it was really unprecedented because law enforcement back

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Speaker 2: in the mid eighties, and prior to that, agencies held

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Speaker 2: a lot of information very close and by that I

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Speaker 2: mean they didn't share it a lot. In this particular case,

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Speaker 2: you had local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies who

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Speaker 2: came together as a task force and were desperately, literally

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Speaker 2: desperately trying to find Sean Moore before something happened to him.

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Speaker 2: They worked so closely together it was literally almost unheard

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Speaker 2: of at that time.

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Speaker 1: And this is the FBI who's getting involved.

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Speaker 2: The FBI was also involved.

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Speaker 1: Yes, what triggers that? Is that a missing child that

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Speaker 1: is clearly the victim of abduction or is it there

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Speaker 1: on the highway or what makes it okay for the

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Speaker 1: FBI to come in?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think because it was a kidnapping of a child.

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Speaker 2: Michigan had gone through a series of child killings in

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Speaker 2: Oakland County back in the late seventies, seventy six and

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Speaker 2: seventy seven unsolved. There were four unsolved child abductions and

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Speaker 2: murders where the children were literally held for several days

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Speaker 2: before they were murdered. And that was fresh in the

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Speaker 2: memory of a lot of people in Michigan. And so

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Speaker 2: when the FBI gets you know, here's a report of

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Speaker 2: a child being abducted, and they're absolutely certain it's not

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Speaker 2: a random parental discipline situation where a father's taking his

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Speaker 2: kid back home for misbehaving or whatever, then certainly, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're going to get involved immediately.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we have a task force now that involves

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Speaker 1: several different departments, and then of course the FBI and

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Speaker 1: the state police. And you've got the media alerted and

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Speaker 1: now you've got all of these calls eighty five so

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Speaker 1: there's no social media. You've got all these calls coming

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Speaker 1: in to the police station with all of these tips.

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Speaker 1: What does this task force tackle first to try to

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Speaker 1: get Sean back, because I'm sure there's just incredible alarm,

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Speaker 1: maybe even all over the state at this point.

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Speaker 2: Well, they start to interview that reinterview the witnesses to

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Speaker 2: get more detailed statements, and they also look at they

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Speaker 2: contact the American Motors Corporation AMC. If you're very young,

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Speaker 2: you probably don't realize that AMC made the Jeep at

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Speaker 2: that time, they made the Pacer. I think they made

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Speaker 2: the Gremlin, but they also made the Jeep. And so

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Speaker 2: the task force contacted American Motors Corporation and they got

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Speaker 2: a list of the vehicle identification numbers of every Jeep

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Speaker 2: sold between like nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty five, and

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Speaker 2: then they were in the process of taking those vehicle

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Speaker 2: identification numbers and they would run those through the law

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Speaker 2: Enforcement Information Network and find out who the owners were.

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Speaker 2: And then the process would be to go to all

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Speaker 2: of those owners and say, hey, where were you on

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Speaker 2: Labor Day weekend? And that's how it all started the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Really, how would it go? Rod? Now do you think

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Speaker 1: it would be checking license plates at the digital electric

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Speaker 1: tolls if the car passed through a toll, of course,

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Speaker 1: looking at CCTV at the convenience store, anything like that.

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Speaker 1: And at this point they just have the make of

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Speaker 1: the car, the jeep, And I'm assuming the woman who

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Speaker 1: came forward maybe was she able to say it looked

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Speaker 1: like Michigan plates. This wasn't like a Florida plate or something.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, they were able to determine it was definitely

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Speaker 2: a Michigan plate. And she was absolutely certain of the

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Speaker 2: make and model of the jeep because her boyfriend had

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Speaker 2: one that was identical to it. It was a Renegade model.

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Speaker 2: It said Renegade right on the front of the jeep,

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Speaker 2: and when the detectives took her to a jeep dealership,

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Speaker 2: she pointed one out that was identical to it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so they were absolutely certain. Again, it took a couple

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Speaker 2: of days for them to get that information, but once

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Speaker 2: they had it, she was absolutely certain, no question about it.

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Speaker 1: What other resources did they have at that time as

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Speaker 1: far as locating a vehicle, Like I said, today you

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Speaker 1: would be looking at toll records that would have come

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Speaker 1: to you very quickly, CCTV stuff like that, But back

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Speaker 1: then it was just simply you know, witnesses and then

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Speaker 1: the database of registered owners of these jeeps.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, their hands really were almost tied, if you will.

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Speaker 2: If you compare it to today's law enforcement in social media,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, if there's a police agency or a

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Speaker 2: public service agency out there that doesn't have a website

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Speaker 2: or some way to relay information for notification to the public,

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Speaker 2: way behind the times. Yet back then, you're exactly right,

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Speaker 2: what did they have. They had the television, news, they

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Speaker 2: had radio, you know, they had computers back then to

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Speaker 2: relay information quickly to police agencies around the state and

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Speaker 2: things like that. But still they were looking for the

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Speaker 2: wrong car for two days, so it was very difficult.

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Speaker 1: What did they come up with When they have this search,

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Speaker 1: they're searching through what three or you were saying, three

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Speaker 1: or four counties, including Livingstone, looking for the owner of

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Speaker 1: this particular car.

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Speaker 2: They are they're looking for the jeep. By this time,

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Speaker 2: once the task force tasts a couple of days to

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Speaker 2: get up and running, by that time, they've determined they're

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Speaker 2: looking for a jeep and not a GMC pickup. And

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Speaker 2: so they begin to run these vins through the law

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Speaker 2: Enforcement Information Network. They're getting the names of the owners

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Speaker 2: and they're contact and the owners. Well in the middle

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Speaker 2: of this big list of vin owners jeep owners is

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Speaker 2: the name of the killer and he's just another person

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Speaker 2: on the list that they've got to go track down

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Speaker 2: and interview. But what happens is as they're doing that,

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Speaker 2: the task force is up and run. In twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven and about eleven o'clock at night, the FBI

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Speaker 2: is man in the task force headquarters and they get

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Speaker 2: a phone call from the Livonia Police Department. And Lavonia

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Speaker 2: is a suburb of Detroit, and the Livonia officer says

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Speaker 2: to the FBI agent, he says, hey, you guys really

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Speaker 2: need to take a look at this guy. We've got

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Speaker 2: a guy here in our jurisdiction that does that exact

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Speaker 2: same thing. He kidnaps kids off their bicycles, he sexually

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Speaker 2: assaults them, and you really need to take a look

365
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Speaker 2: at him. I'm paraphrasing, but basically that's the information that

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Speaker 2: he gives him. So the FBI agent Jess Lopez is

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Speaker 2: his name. I interviewed him for the book. He said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he said, let's not wait, let's go track him down

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Speaker 2: right now. So they go track down this guy that

370
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Speaker 2: Lavonia Police Department has a record of and they interview him,

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Speaker 2: and that's when it all begins to unravel.

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Speaker 1: So Lavogna police tell the task force, we have this guy.

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Speaker 1: You need to look at him. He snatched kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: off bikes off the street and assaults them. How many

375
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Speaker 1: days into this is that happening? And I'm also wondering

376
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Speaker 1: how many people do they have to call about this?

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Speaker 1: AMC JEEP.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how big the list was, but

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Speaker 2: I guess you could imagine it's got to be probably

380
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Speaker 2: a thousand people or more. I would think they decided

381
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Speaker 2: to go interview the killer based on what Lavonia has said.

382
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Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to them, he's already been interviewed by somebody on

383
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Speaker 2: the task force earlier that particular day, and this was

384
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Speaker 2: within three or four days after the kidnapping. It happened

385
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Speaker 2: very quickly, it really did.

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Speaker 1: And it was about the fact that he's an owner

387
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Speaker 1: of an AMC jeep exactly.

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Speaker 2: He was just a name on the list.

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Speaker 1: You know what I wondered when you were talking about that.

390
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Speaker 1: You know, in a second, we can give his name

391
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Speaker 1: and you can give me some information. But I was thinking,

392
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Speaker 1: you know, his last name starts with a B, and

393
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Speaker 1: I wondered if they just alphabetized that list, and he

394
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Speaker 1: came up pretty early, and that's why he got interviewed early,

395
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Speaker 1: because he's, you know, at the top of the alphabetized list.

396
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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's how it worked, but.

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Speaker 2: Well, you may be exactly right, because the vehicle identification

398
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Speaker 2: number is all they had for that list of jeep owners,

399
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: and so maybe they did. You know, I never thought

400
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: to ask them that, but you may very well be right.

401
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: You know, if his last name began with a Z,

402
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Speaker 2: maybe they wouldn't have resolved this so quick.

403
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Speaker 1: So tell me what happens and tell me just sort

404
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: of initially, who is this guy. What's the impression that

405
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Speaker 1: they get when they go to see him.

406
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 2: Well, his name, the killer's name is Ron Bailey. And

407
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: Ron Bailey had been interviewed that afternoon before the Lavonia

408
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 2: Police contacted the Task Force, he'd been interviewed by a

409
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: couple of detectives and he told them Labor Day weekend,

410
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: he said, I was up in Caseville, Michigan. I was

411
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: fishing with a friend. He has a boat up there

412
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Speaker 2: and a cabin and that's where I was. And so

413
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: they took his information and they were going to follow

414
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: up later with his friend a list of things to

415
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: do if you will. And then later that night, Lavonia

416
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: Police contacts the Task Force and says, hey, we've got

417
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Speaker 2: this guy named Ron Bailey who lives here in Lavonia.

418
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: His emo is to snatch kids off bicycles and sexually

419
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Speaker 2: assault them and then release them. And so the police

420
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Speaker 2: Jess Lopez, the FBI Special Agent in charge work in

421
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Speaker 2: the Task Force, that night he said, let's go talk

422
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Speaker 2: to him right now. They go to the Bailey home

423
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Speaker 2: in Lavonia. Ron Bailey's dad answers the door. It's about

424
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Speaker 2: midnight now, and he says, no, Ron's not here, He's

425
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: at a friend's house. The task force guys, they head

426
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: over to the friend's house and sure enough, Ron Bailey's

427
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: jeep is there, so they wait. They wait for Ron

428
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: Bailey to leave, and when he leaves, they stop him

429
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Speaker 2: and he becomes arrogant. He starts waving a business card

430
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 2: from a trooper or detective around, saying, hey, I already

431
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: talked to you guys this afternoon. I told him I

432
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: was up in case Phil. That's my story and I'm

433
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: sticking to it. And they said, well, we really just

434
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: want to verify your story. You know, we're not accusing you,

435
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: we're just following up trying to verify it. Why didn't

436
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: you come on back to the Lavonia Police Department with us?

437
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: So he agrees to do that, and what Ron Bailey

438
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: doesn't know is when he leaves with the officers, a

439
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: couple other officers interview his friend and his friend says,

440
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: he wasn't in Case filled with me. He asked me

441
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: to lie for him. Well, the gig is up now,

442
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 2: so they put the pressure on him back at the

443
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: Lavonia Police Department and they feel they have enough literally

444
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: maybe to arrest him. Wow, he's yeah, so he's really

445
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: not free to go at that point. And they decide

446
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: after an interview with him, and he maintains that he

447
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: was with his friend, and they hit him up with

448
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: the fact that his friend said he wasn't there. He says, well,

449
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: that's my story and I'm not changing it. So they

450
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: take him up back up to Brighton now and they

451
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 2: decide to do a police lineup with him. It's now

452
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: early in the morning, and they bring in some witnesses

453
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: that witnessed the abduction of Sean and none of them

454
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 2: can pick him.

455
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: Out of the line because they're driving right.

456
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's early in the morning. Nobody can pick him out,

457
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: and so they have to release him. But what Ron

458
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: Bailey doesn't know is that they also put him under surveillance.

459
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: They have a surveillance team following him. So that's when

460
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: it all begins to come together.

461
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: Let me ask you, just playing the skeptic on some

462
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: of this, So Hismo has been snatching kids, you know,

463
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: off bikes. We don't know anything yet about the legal

464
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: process with that. Did he get caught, did he serve time?

465
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: You know, was he institutionalized all of that? But you

466
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: have this rap sheet and you've got the jeep, and

467
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: is that enough to hold him when he cannot be

468
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: identified and there's of course no CCTV or anything else.

469
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: Can he just say listen, I've made a bunch of mistakes.

470
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: I happened to have this jeep. What else you have

471
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: on me?

472
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: Well, they had enough to hold the jeep. After they

473
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: released him, when he was brought to the Briton Post,

474
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 2: they look through his wallet. They photographed everything in his

475
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: wallet so that they would have a record of it

476
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: before giving it back to him. And what they noticed

477
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: in there was a receipt for a tow truck a

478
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: toe and so Jess Lopez, after Bailey was released early

479
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: in the morning, he goes and tracks down Bailey's well.

480
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: He tracks down the record company for the receipt and says, hey,

481
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 2: what is this And they said, oh, yeah, it was

482
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: a jeep that we pulled out of. It was stuck

483
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: in some four wheel driving. They'd been off roading. They said,

484
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: we didn't recognize who the driver was, but we recognized

485
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: the girl with him. Her name is deb Chesney and

486
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: that's a girl that we knew. One of them recognized her.

487
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: So Lopez then tracks down Deb Chesney that day and

488
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: Deb Chesney is Ron Bailey's pseudo girlfriend, the interviewer, and

489
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: they said, hey, where was Ron during Labor Day weekend?

490
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: She said, well, he was up at our family cabin

491
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: in Gladwin, now Caseville. Just to give you a perspective

492
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: on where Caseville is in Michigan, it's in the Thumb

493
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: area on Saginaw Bay if you're familiar with Michigan at all,

494
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: and then Gladwin is literally up in north central Michigan,

495
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: so about one hundred or more miles away from Caseville.

496
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: So Deb says, yeah, he was up at our family cabin.

497
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: He borrowed the key from us, and so Jess Lopez

498
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: knew immediately at that point that's probably where they would

499
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: end up finding Shawn Moore's body.

500
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: Did she suspect anything? Was she surprised? Alarmed? What was

501
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: her reaction?

502
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: She was completely surprised, completely surprised. You know, It's funny.

503
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: Ron Bailey's dad as soon as the story about the

504
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: kidnapping and the jeep hit the airwaves, hit the television,

505
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: in the radio, and the newspapers, he suspected his own

506
00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: son and confronted him about it, and Ron live told

507
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: his dad. He said, well, don't worry, dad, I was

508
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: up in Caseville and there's thousands of people that owned

509
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: jeep's like mine.

510
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: How old was Ron at the time? Is it twenty two?

511
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: Am I remembering?

512
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: Right? Twenty three?

513
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: I believe so, young man. And we'll learn a little

514
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: bit more about him after we find out about Sean.

515
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: So they find out about Deb's family's cabin that supposedly

516
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: Ron was up there by himself, and they go up.

517
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: They go rushing up to the cabin hoping to find

518
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: Sean alive, because that has been, as far as they know,

519
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: the case with all of the other boys that have

520
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: been snatched by Ron before.

521
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: Right correct, Ron's history is criminal history has always been

522
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: to release his victims, and so in this case they did.

523
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: They immediately flew up to Gladwin hoping maybe they would

524
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: find Sean alive. They found an empty cabin at that point,

525
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: and so they collected a little bits and pieces of

526
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: evidence and flew back that same day, and they were

527
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: going to organize at that point a search party up

528
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: in Gladwin for that particular weekend to search the area

529
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: around the cabin for Sean's body.

530
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Did they find anything incriminating in the cabin?

531
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: They did when they actually did a search ward on

532
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: the cabin. Later they found a palm print that belonged

533
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: to Sean and it was on this I believe it

534
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: was found on the stove handle, a partial palm print.

535
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: So they start searching around Gladwin and where this cabin is.

536
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: Give me the time frame again. It's a Sunday when

537
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: he is kidnapped, Labor Day weekend. Where are we now?

538
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: When they find the cabin and they're thinking that Sean,

539
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: if he's not alive, is somewhere around here, or hopefully

540
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: if he is.

541
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: Alive, it's about two weeks later.

542
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: His parents must have just been losing their minds. That's

543
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: awful on his brother.

544
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: Did they were? His brother was working toward becoming an attorney.

545
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: His parents were assigned you could call them victim advocates.

546
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: They're what law enforcement uses today, but back then they

547
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: were literally Dave Ostrom was assigned to be their liaison,

548
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: law enforcement liaison, so he was with them during the

549
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: evening hours and during the daylight hours. The Michigan State

550
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: Police detective was assigned to be with them also, and

551
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: they were simply there to do whatever the family needed

552
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: to have done, if it was to change a light bulb,

553
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: if it was to if they had questions, just anything

554
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: that they needed to be done. They wanted somebody from

555
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: law enforcement with them. The subdivision was blocked off so

556
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: that the news media wouldn't bother him. They were going

557
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: through help. There's no question about it. Yeah, no question

558
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: about it.

559
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: Did you interview Dave for the book?

560
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: I did.

561
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: Did Dave tell you what they were thinking during this

562
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: two week period, particularly when they find out Ron Bailey's

563
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: with young boys. Are they holding out hope that he's

564
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: still alive or is this this sort of like grief

565
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: where it doesn't look good from their point of view either.

566
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: I would describe it more as the grief where it

567
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: doesn't look good, like they're kind of preparing for that.

568
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: Oh no, that inevitable notification. That's the sense that I

569
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: got from Dave. I have to tell you. I was

570
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: able to briefly, very briefly, interview the other MSP detective

571
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: that was assigned to them. He ended up literally within

572
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: a month of me talking to him, he passed away.

573
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: He had decided that he really was hesitant about being

574
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: a part of this not because he was being rude,

575
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: but because he felt that he might be betraying the

576
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: confidence of the More family. Even though mister and Missus

577
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: Moore had been dead for several years, he still felt

578
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: that he might be betraying their confidence, and so he said,

579
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: I really would rather not take part in this, he said,

580
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: but he did put me in touch with Chris Hansen

581
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: from the Predator series. Chris Hansen was a young reporter

582
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 2: at that time, and he and this detective had become

583
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: very good friends as a result of the Sean mar

584
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: case and had been friends for forty years. And so

585
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: he said, I'll put you in touch with Chris and

586
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: he'll be sort of the liaison between you and me.

587
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: And so that was very helpful.

588
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: You know, just as a quick side note, because I

589
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: want to get back to Sean's story. But in true crime,

590
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: we do often focus in on the mistakes that the

591
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: police make, whether they're unintentional or intentional, or covers of racism,

592
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: everything that we can think of. And so even though

593
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: this is an awful story that you're unfolding, it is

594
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: really nice to hear how compassionate and competent the police

595
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: are in this particular case. I just don't get a

596
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: lot of those, and so this is I know they're there,

597
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: and they're just not cases that I were poured on.

598
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: But it feels good to be able to say that.

599
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: It sounds like so far they're doing everything they possibly can,

600
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: including caring for the family in this case.

601
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 2: Oh, they absolutely were. They absolutely were. I can't find

602
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: any fault on the part of law enforcement in this case.

603
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: Everybody clicked, everybody worked toward one goal, and that was

604
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: to hopefully find shank life.

605
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're searching around the cabin and what is

606
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 1: that like? Is that a grid search? Exact situation? Thank

607
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: goodness it's in September, so that it's not I know,

608
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: it just snows like heck out there. So I'm glad

609
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: it's in September and not bad weather.

610
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it happened quick. They had almost a task force,

611
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: I guess, if you will, up in Gladwin, troopers from

612
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: all around the area, police from all around the area,

613
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: and they assigned teams to search particular areas in a grid.

614
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 2: And there was a trooper from the Pontiac Post who

615
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: was up there to help in the search, and he

616
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: and his partner were assigned particular area. I believe it

617
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: was about three miles from the cabin, and they could

618
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 2: see tracks kind of going back into the woods. This

619
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,479
Speaker 2: is the here On National Forest. So you've got a huge,

620
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: huge forest area and dirt roads, sandy soil, if you will,

621
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: a lot of ferns going alongside the road, a lot

622
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: of forestry trees. And they see some tracks going kind

623
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: of off the road, and above it they see some

624
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: bird circling and the one says to the other trooper,

625
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: He says, what kind of birds are those? And the

626
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: troopers says vultures. And so they started literally walking following

627
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 2: this two track and they've found Sean's body about seventy

628
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: five feet off the road.

629
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: So not buried or what was the condition like of

630
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: his body.

631
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: I would just say that being out in a forest

632
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 2: with wild animals for two weeks, there was a lot

633
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 2: of decomposition, and I'll just leave it at that. Really

634
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: it was a grizzly site.

635
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: Could they gleam any details of what happened, either how

636
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: long was he alive or certainly cause of death or

637
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: anything like that trauma?

638
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: There was no evidence of any trauma. There was no

639
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: cause of death determined because of the decomposition. However, in

640
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: the blood work that was done at the autopsy, they

641
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 2: were able to determine that Sean had an amount of

642
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: I'm just going to call it a sedative, if you will,

643
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: and over the counter sedative that was much higher than

644
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: it should have been if he had been taking it

645
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: for a cold, if he will, or for allergies or whatever.

646
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: And so that in and of itself, combined with the

647
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: fact that I guess the totality of the circumstances around

648
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: his disappearance, combined with that that the medical examiner was

649
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: able to say that it was a homicide, even though

650
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: no cause of death was determined.

651
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: So they find Sean's body and they go back to Bailey,

652
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: who they held the car. But they did they hold him.

653
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't remember what you told me.

654
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: They did not initially hold him. He had once they

655
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: released him. Within I think that afternoon. Back in nineteen

656
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: eighty five, you could buy a plane ticket without an

657
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: ID and with cash. He went to Detroit Metro Airport

658
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: and he bought a ticket to Florida, which is where

659
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: he had lived a couple of years prior to that.

660
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: For just a year or two and then he fled

661
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 2: Florida back then because he was molested boys down there,

662
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: So he fled back to Florida basically with that afternoon.

663
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: But MSP was the surveillance team was right within. As

664
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, Tom Monahan, the owner of the

665
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: Detroit Tigers and Domino's Pizza, donated his private jet for

666
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: the surveillance team to fly down and beat the the

667
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: commercial flight down there because they knew where he was headed,

668
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: and they picked him up there. Once Shawn's body was found,

669
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: the police were able to immediately issue a warrant for

670
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: the arrest for kidnapping, and then once the identification was

671
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: made at the autopsy, they charged him with murder. But

672
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: they had enough to move in and arrest him once

673
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: they found Shawn's body, and when they did, he had

674
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: fled into the woods in Florida. So there was a

675
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: two day man hunt in Marion County, Florida before they

676
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: finally captured him and brought him back to Michigan.

677
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: At that point, as far as they know, I know

678
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: they're looking at his record and everything. What do they

679
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: think happened from the time he had a very troubled

680
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: childhood and just was it felt like was in trouble

681
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: from age ten or so on. What is the record

682
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: as far as they knew at that point of what

683
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: Ron had done, which you know, it sounds like so

684
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 1: far had been kidnapping young boys and assaulting them, traumatizing

685
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: them and then releasing them. How many people are we

686
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: talking about?

687
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 2: Well, at his trial he admitted to over the previous

688
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: thirteen years having kidnapped as many as twelve to fifteen boys.

689
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: He had forgotten how many. The Lavonia Police Department's main

690
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: case against him was a case back when he was

691
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: sixteen where he had kidnapped a boy, sexually assaulted him,

692
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: choked him out to the point where he thought the

693
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: kid was dead, and threw him in the bushes. He

694
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: was charged with that case. He was charged with kidnapping,

695
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: sexual assault, and attempted murder At the age of sixteen.

696
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: He was sent to the Hawthorne Psychiatric Hospital in mid Michigan,

697
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: and he was confined there. The judge had a choice,

698
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: should I send him to prison as a sixteen year

699
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: old charged as an adult, or should I send him

700
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: maybe to get some help, because he wouldn't get any

701
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: help in prison, And so they chose to confine him

702
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: to the psychiatric hospital at Hawthorne as a juvenile, and

703
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: that's where he met doctor Tombo.

704
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: So we'll pick up now with his experience there. So

705
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: first of all, will you give me some clarity on

706
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: as a sixteen year old when he sent to the

707
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: psychiatric hospital, what are the expectations of him. Is it

708
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: that he will be treated successfully somehow some way and

709
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: released into society or is this a facility where he

710
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: would conceivably spend the rest of his life if he

711
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: doesn't make some sort of progress that they can see.

712
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 2: No, the goal was treatment, rehabilitation and return him to

713
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 2: his home. That's what their goal was. Sadly it didn't

714
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: work well.

715
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: He encounters doctor Jose Tombo, who you had mentioned before,

716
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: and this was a very well respected psychiatrist I think

717
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: think in Michigan.

718
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: He was. Doctor Tombo had been with the Hawthorne and

719
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: Northfield Regional Psychiatric Hospital in Northfille, Michigan for several years,

720
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: very highly respected among his peers, among his colleagues, among

721
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: some of the patients. But some of the patients also,

722
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: it was later found out, were being sexually abused by

723
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: doctor Tombo, and as it turns out, Ron Bailey was

724
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: one of those. Ron Bailey claimed at his trial that

725
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: doctor Tombo had forced him into a sexual relationship and

726
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,479
Speaker 2: that caused him to be insane at the time that

727
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: he kidnapped Shawan Moore. It didn't work, though the jury

728
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: was smarter than that. There was also a second case.

729
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: While the police were putting together the Shawn Moore case,

730
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: the Ferndale Police and the Task Force began to look

731
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 2: at similar kidnapping and abduction in nineteen four, a year

732
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: before Shawn Moore was kidnapped, and in that case, Kenny Myers,

733
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: a twelve year old boy was kidnapped and sexual assaulted

734
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: and his body was found about twenty miles away the

735
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 2: next day, and that case had gone cold for a year.

736
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: And then in addition to that, there was another boy

737
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: a month before Kenny Myers was kidnapped who had been

738
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: kidnapped and sexual assaulted and let go and he was

739
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: able to identify Ron Bailey. So in the end he

740
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: had the Shawn Moore case, the Kenny Myers case, and

741
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 2: the case that this other kid had identified Ron Bailey

742
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: of kidnapping and sexual assaults. So basically Ron had three

743
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: separate court jurisdictions that were prosecuting him.

744
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: Kenny Myers, you said he was kidnapped from Ferndale? Is

745
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: that right correct? How close is that to Brighton where

746
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: Sean was kidnapped.

747
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: I would say maybe thirty miles.

748
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: And as Lavonia like in between those places.

749
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: Lavonia is south of Ferndale, but it's another suburb of

750
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: Detroit and it's not that far away, maybe ten or

751
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 2: fifteen miles.

752
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: So can you give me a summary of what happens

753
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: with Kenny Myers because we have such a kind of

754
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: deep understanding of Sean Moore and his family and everything.

755
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: What can you tell about Kenny? Is it a similar situation,

756
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: nice family, all of that.

757
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: It is absolutely a textbook identical to the Shawn Moore case.

758
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: Kenny Myers is out riding his bike down the John

759
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: r Is the street that it's called in the Detroit area,

760
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: Ferndale area, and he's looking for a job stocking shelves

761
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 2: in a party store. Ron Bailey sees him. He follows him,

762
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: just like he did in the Shawn Moore case. A

763
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: year later. He takes the opportunity to distract him by

764
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: stopping to talk to him. Then he backs into a

765
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: parking lot, cuts Kenny Myers off his bike, grabs him

766
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 2: off his bike, forces him into his car, and leaves.

767
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: A witness saw it happen. She thought it was a

768
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: parent disciplining a child, and so she didn't say anything initially.

769
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: So that literally the method of operation is identical to

770
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: the Shawn Moore case. Kenny Myers comes from another great family.

771
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: You know, the mother's divorce, but she's remarried. They had

772
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 2: moved from Warren, Michigan to Ferndale just two weeks before that.

773
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: They were just settling into their new home.

774
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: That's awful. I was thinking when you were describing Shawn's kidnapping.

775
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I wonder, like how many times his

776
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: dad lets it run through his head, like if the

777
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: freaking lawnmower hadn't broken. If I don't know, I mean

778
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: that must as a parent, it just must be awful.

779
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: If we had moved there, I think you would have

780
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: a tendency to blame blame yourself. I hope that doesn't

781
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: happen with the other parents, but I could just see

782
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: being in their shoes like that.

783
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: Well, as long as you'd mentioned the parents, let me

784
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: mention one thing real quick. The positive that came out

785
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: of this book because people don't want to read about childkillers.

786
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: They really don't. It's a difficult subject to talk about.

787
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 2: It's a difficult subject to research. But I think that

788
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: it was important to write this book number one because

789
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 2: the More family and the Meyers family both took their

790
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: tragedy and turned it into something positive. And they really did,

791
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 2: and you'll read about that in the book. And beyond that,

792
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: I think there are other cases out there.

793
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: I was going to ask about the Oakland County. You

794
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: said there were four unsolved child murders in Oakland County.

795
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: Is there a possibility he can be linked to those?

796
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: Well, that's a suspicion that some investigators have. Without going

797
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: into a lot of detail, because I need to emphasize

798
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: that this book is not about the Oaklan County childkillings,

799
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: although chapter one that's what I talk about is the

800
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: Oaklan County childkillings to kind of set the stage because

801
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: people were still on edge about those when Sean Wore

802
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: was kidnapped and Kenny Myers was kidnapped. And then in

803
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 2: the end of the book, chapter titled Unanswered Questions, we

804
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: address that particular issue. Is there a possibility that somehow

805
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: Ron Bailey could be tied to the Oaklan County child killings.

806
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: I think there's some compelling some we'll call it conjecture.

807
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: I don't know. The theory has always been in the

808
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: Oakle County childkillings that it was a person or a

809
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: group of people that over eighteen months kidnapped these four

810
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: children and held them for several days before murdering them.

811
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 2: And one of the theories was did they use someone

812
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 2: who could be used as a lure to coax kids

813
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 2: near the kidnappers. Well, Ron Bailey would have been seventeen

814
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 2: years old at the time, blonde hair, very young looking,

815
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: and so there's there's suspicion there that maybe there's a

816
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 2: As a police officer, I never worked on the Oakland

817
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: County child killing cases because I worked in mid Michigan,

818
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: but I interviewed some of the investigators and I can

819
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: tell you that they absolutely believe that there could be

820
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: some sort of Italie in.

821
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: Do they have any biological evidence that they can use

822
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: anything for DNA.

823
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of a long story, but they do

824
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: have a DNA profile of the killer. They have a

825
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: hair from a vehicle taken from a suspect they interviewed

826
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six. They have a hair from one

827
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 2: of the male victims, and they have a hair from

828
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: a second male victim, and all of those hairs came

829
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: from the same person. I will tell you that they

830
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: do not match Ron Bailey, but there's still a suspicion

831
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: that Ron Bailey could somehow be involved.

832
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too much into Oakland, but

833
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: I do find this fascinating. Were the hairs in places

834
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: where a random male hairs or a dad's hair or

835
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: something like that shouldn't be And that's why they feel

836
00:48:58,680 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: like it's the killer.

837
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: The hair that was taken off Mark Stebbens's body at

838
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: the autopsy and the hair that was taken off of

839
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: Timothy King's body. Now these two murders were like eighteen

840
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: months apart. Those matched the hair off the vehicle that

841
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 2: was of a suspect that was interviewed in nineteen seventy six,

842
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 2: but they don't belong to that suspect. So that suspect

843
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: had someone in his vehicle whose hair ended up in

844
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: the vehicle and on Mark Stebbin's body and on Timothy

845
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 2: King's body.

846
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: So ultimately he wants to he's issuing it an insanity plea.

847
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: He wants to go to a psychiatric facility. His defense,

848
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: it sounds like you were saying, is pointing to doctor Tombo,

849
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: who it sounds like had been suspected and disciplined, and

850
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: it looks like he was. Did he end up being disbarred?

851
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: I can't remember. I read that there were six accusations

852
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: against him, so it wasn't just Ron Bailey saying this

853
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: to get out of anything, right.

854
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: He was eventually in the state of Michigan, took his

855
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 2: medical license. The defense team for Ron Bailey wanted doctor

856
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: Tombo to testify, and doctor Tombo disappeared. Conveniently, they can't.

857
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 2: They can't find him, they can't serve him. He wants

858
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: no part of it because he knows it's going to

859
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 2: come out that he's been molesting other patients at the hospital.

860
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: So ultimately the jury does not believe the insanity defense

861
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: that is put up by Ron Bailey, and then what

862
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: does he end up getting for this.

863
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: Ron Bailey received a life sentence with no parole for

864
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: the kidnapping and murder of Sean Moore. He received the

865
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: same sentence for the kidnapping and murder of Kenny Myers,

866
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: and the third charge of kidnapping and sexual assault on

867
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: the youth that was kidnapped a month before Kenny Myers.

868
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: That case was dismissed and thrown out simply because it

869
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 2: just would have been a cumulative sentence. He'd already received

870
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 2: two life sentences without parole. The prosecuting attorney's office felt, hey,

871
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 2: this is just going to be cumulative. Let's go ahead

872
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: and dismiss that because that kid survived, he was not murdered.

873
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: Any reaction from Ron Bailey when the you know, his

874
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 1: insanity defense falls apart.

875
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 2: No, I think that he accepted it. I think that

876
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: he knew that it was that it was coming. I

877
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: will say that his attorney, Ray Casar, and I interviewed

878
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: mister Kassar for the book, a very genuine person and

879
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 2: to this day, mister Cassar doesn't believe that Ron Bailey

880
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 2: is a predator. He just thinks that he was a

881
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: sick individual that needed help.

882
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 1: So no chance of getting out and you know, ultimately,

883
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: what do you think the story is here? We did

884
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: not talk very much because there were so much other

885
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: stuff to talk about about how Ron got away with

886
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: doing everything he did before Kenny, and before Sean, before

887
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: the murders happened, he was trying to kill some of

888
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 1: these kids. How does this slip through? You know, because

889
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: he obviously gets out of doctor Tumbull's care. How does

890
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 1: this happen?

891
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: That's a great question. How did he slip through the

892
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: cracks for thirteen years? You know, the police had the

893
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: reports on him, they had the cases against him. I

894
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: don't know how that happens, but it does. And the

895
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: other question in the end is are there other victims

896
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: out there?

897
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: No, of course murder victims too, Yeah, of course absolutely.

898
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: You know down in Florida where he was doing the

899
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: same thing. He was up here for two years before

900
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: he decided to move back up here. And are there

901
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: other victims up here? That's the big question. And if

902
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 2: an investigator at some agency reads this book, or a

903
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: parent who has a lost child that they haven't seen

904
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: for forty years, maybe there's a connection.

905
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think that you handled this book really well.

906
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: And the sensitivity that you've obviously had dealing with the

907
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: public being in law enforcement, all of that lends to

908
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: giving you know, I think a story that, as we've

909
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: talked about before, is incredibly difficult these This would not

910
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: be a book I would be able to do, I

911
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: don't think. But it's I think an important book. And

912
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: it just showed these kids. So if we talk about

913
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: Kenny and we talk about Sean who came from you

914
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: know that what you would say would be how we

915
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: would describe, you know, a good family. You can imagine

916
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: how kids who are from families who either don't want

917
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 1: to or can't pay attention to what's happening with them,

918
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: how they could slip through the cracks too. I mean,

919
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: if you've got a Kenny and a Shan who are

920
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: snatched right in the daylight, it's just to me another

921
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: reminder about how all kids, no matter where they're from,

922
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: are vulnerable.

923
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: To describe Kenny and I just thought of this as

924
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 2: I was talking to you. To describe the family life

925
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 2: of Kenny Myers and Sean Moore if you could picture

926
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: this may sound ridiculous, but if you could picture the

927
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: television family Leave It to Beaver, you know, just the

928
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 2: classic middle class American family. The parents are both working,

929
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 2: they're paying their bills, they're just living life and it's

930
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 2: immediately disrupted by some predator. It's an American tragedy. It

931
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: really is.

932
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

933
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinner's All About the

934
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

935
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve s of my historical true

936
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

937
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

938
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

939
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

940
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

941
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

942
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

943
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold

944
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: More and if you know of a historical crime that

945
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

946
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: email us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also

947
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 1: take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words