1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,640
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind listener Mail.

3
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,760
Speaker 2: My name is Joe McCormick. My regular co host Robert

4
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,479
Speaker 2: Lamb is not with me today, so I'm going to

5
00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,280
Speaker 2: be recording some responses to listener mail solo, but Rob

6
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,840
Speaker 2: should be back with me again tomorrow for our core episode.

7
00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 2: We read listener mail every Monday on Stuff to Blow

8
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 2: Your Mind. And if you would like to get in

9
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 2: touch but you've never done it before, why not give

10
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 2: it a try. You can reach us at contact at

11
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,199
Speaker 2: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Whatever you want

12
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,320
Speaker 2: to send is welcome, especially if you have feedback to

13
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,000
Speaker 2: a recent episode, or if you want to provide a

14
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 2: correction or just add something interesting to a topic we've discussed.

15
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,600
Speaker 2: Whatever it is, send it our way contact at stuff

16
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,560
Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com. Let's see, I'm going

17
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 2: to kick things off with this message from j going

18
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 2: ways back to our series on the beaver, a surprisingly

19
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 2: fascinating animal, Jeff says, Greeting science Humans in regards to

20
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 2: your episodes on beavers, I wanted to call your attention

21
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,319
Speaker 2: to a fantastic short film from the nineteen fifties featuring

22
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 2: real life parachuting beavers, previously thought to be nothing but

23
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 2: urban legends. It's called Fur for the Future, and it

24
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,959
Speaker 2: is well worth your time, and so the video Jeff

25
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 2: links here is a short educational film strip from about

26
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 2: the year nineteen fifty in color, produced by the Idaho

27
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 2: Fish and Game Commission, And it's about the process of

28
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 2: live trapping and relocating fur bearing animals like muskrats, beavers,

29
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 2: and Martin's And yes, just as Jeff says, when it

30
00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 2: gets into the part about beavers, we see footage of

31
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 2: a re your actual historical program for catching beavers that

32
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 2: were considered a nuisance in one area and transporting them

33
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,119
Speaker 2: to new habitats by dropping them out of airplanes with parachutes.

34
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 2: I loved this short film. This is the kind of

35
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 2: educational film that was parodied to great effect on The

36
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,640
Speaker 2: Simpsons with like think where You'd be without sand or

37
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 2: the one about how you would soon regret wishing to

38
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,359
Speaker 2: live in a world without zinc. In this one, the

39
00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 2: narrator paints a lyrical, almost heroic narrative of national identity

40
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 2: based on the concept of fur. In fact, can we

41
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,360
Speaker 2: insert a bit of audio from the beginning here.

42
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 3: Ur is important ur as a resource of our country

43
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 3: and our time. We value the skins of fur bearing animals,

44
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 3: or their beauty, they warm and their durability. The farmer

45
00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 3: bottled the fur driver across the continent. The trapper explored

46
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 3: the forests long before the logger came. Cities were built

47
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,520
Speaker 3: and rivers and streams were harnessed for power and irrigation,

48
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,359
Speaker 3: along with timber and water. Fur is an important resource.

49
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,320
Speaker 2: So Jeff's email continues. The narrator has one of those

50
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 2: classic paternal nature documentary voices and frequently reassures the audience

51
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 2: that everything is just fine despite the alarming images in

52
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 2: the film. Yeah, Jeff's right about this. There are moments

53
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 2: where we see muskrats being lifted in and out of

54
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 2: cages by their tails, and the narrators like, oh, it's

55
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: just like God put a handle on this animal. It's

56
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:50,040
Speaker 2: his tail. You know, it's fine. Muskrat doesn't mind, Jeff says.

57
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 2: The rationale for air dropping beavers into the countryside was

58
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 2: that it was necessary to restore areas where beavers had

59
00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,200
Speaker 2: been hunted out of existence, yet were two difficult for

60
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 2: rangers hauling large crates to get to on foot. Operation

61
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 2: Beaver Drop is clearly the highlight, but there is more

62
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: to love than just plummeting rodents. I hope you get

63
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 2: a kick out of it. Keep rubbing the fur, Jeff, Well,

64
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,359
Speaker 2: thank you, Jeff. This was a divine recommendation. If you

65
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,719
Speaker 2: listening now would like to go look it up. It

66
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,599
Speaker 2: is again called fur for the Future in it. I

67
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 2: think you can find it on what looks like the

68
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,840
Speaker 2: Idaho Fish and Game YouTube channel for a bit of context.

69
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to find out the background on this, so

70
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,000
Speaker 2: I looked up some articles on the history of the

71
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 2: Beaver Air Drop Project and I found a great article

72
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 2: that was a piece for Boise State Public Radio by

73
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,599
Speaker 2: Samantha Wright published in January twenty fifteen. And I think

74
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,840
Speaker 2: most of the other articles I could find basically referred

75
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 2: back to this one. So I think this is the

76
00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 2: main reported piece on it. And so I'll try to

77
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,719
Speaker 2: streamline and summarize the story how I can. It looks

78
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,840
Speaker 2: like the story goes back to right after World War Two,

79
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 2: when a bunch of people started building homes around a

80
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 2: place in Idaho called Payette Lake and a nearby town

81
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,640
Speaker 2: called McCall. But this was a place occupied by beavers,

82
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 2: and of course beavers and humans can get in each

83
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,920
Speaker 2: other's way. They are both land and waterway engineers and developers,

84
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,480
Speaker 2: and they can cause problems for each other when they

85
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 2: get too close. So the job of dealing with the

86
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 2: beaver problem fell to an Idaho Fish and Game employee

87
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 2: named Elmo Header. Header thought he could find a win

88
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 2: win resolution to the situation because while the beavers were

89
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 2: causing problems around the area of McCall, there was a

90
00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,000
Speaker 2: place far out in the wilderness called the Chamberlain Basin

91
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 2: that would greatly benefit, they thought, from the reintroduction of beavers.

92
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 2: So he wanted to get these beavers over there, but

93
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 2: the target area was wild and undeveloped. There were basically

94
00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:04,479
Speaker 2: no roads. Header considered taking the beavers on pack horses

95
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,120
Speaker 2: or mules, but, to quote from a report Header made

96
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 2: to the Journal of Wildlife Management exerpted in this public

97
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 2: radio piece, quote, horses and mules become spooky and quarrelsome

98
00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 2: when loaded with a struggling, odorous pair of live beavers.

99
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 2: These problems involve further handling and too frequently result in

100
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,080
Speaker 2: a loss of beavers. So transporting beavers in boxes by

101
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 2: horse or mule caused problems for the horses and mules,

102
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:37,080
Speaker 2: and much worse problems for the beavers themselves. But Header

103
00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,240
Speaker 2: had another solution. He said, what if the beavers could

104
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 2: be moved by airplane, making use of the vast reserves

105
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 2: of surplus parachutes left over after World War II. So

106
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 2: he tried to come up with a design for a

107
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 2: box that could be dropped from an airplane with a

108
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 2: parachute and automatically release the beaver upon landing. And the

109
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,479
Speaker 2: first idea here was sort of ingenious in my opinion.

110
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 2: It would be a box woven out of willow material,

111
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 2: which the beaver could then chew through to escape after landing.

112
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 2: So you take advantage of the natural beaveriness of beavers

113
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,560
Speaker 2: and let them just chew their way out of a

114
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 2: willow box. But the problem was that the beavers would

115
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 2: start chewing their way out as soon as they were

116
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 2: placed inside, so this led to concerns that they might

117
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 2: escape the box while still inside the airplane, which you

118
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 2: can imagine the problems there, or also while falling through

119
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 2: the sky, so that idea was no good. After that,

120
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 2: they ended up designing a box with a mechanism that

121
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 2: would automatically pop open upon impact with the ground. And

122
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 2: then they tested the box repeatedly with an older male

123
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,800
Speaker 2: beaver who ended up being the first part of the

124
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 2: first group actually transported to the Chamberlain Basin by this method,

125
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 2: and along with three female beavers, that beaver did establish

126
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 2: a successful colony in the new location. And in the end,

127
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 2: a total of seventy six beavers were dropped from the airplane.

128
00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,280
Speaker 2: All but one of them survived the process, and they said,

129
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 2: got right to work with beaver business. Maybe let's hear

130
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,800
Speaker 2: how they describe the beaver air drop in for for

131
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 2: the future.

132
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 3: Parachutes are attached to cargo lines and the boxes are

133
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,080
Speaker 3: stacked in rows along the waist of the plane, ten

134
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,560
Speaker 3: boxes to eLOAD twenty beaver. Ready for the flight to

135
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 3: mountain meadows. The plane makes a careful approach, ready for

136
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 3: the drop. Now into the air and down they swing

137
00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,680
Speaker 3: down to the ground near a stream or a lake.

138
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 3: The box opens and a most unusual and novel trip

139
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:40,960
Speaker 3: ends for mister beab.

140
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,800
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if this kind of beaver relocation

141
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,280
Speaker 2: program is something that conservationists would engage in today. The

142
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,880
Speaker 2: article by Samantha Wright has a note at the end

143
00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 2: saying that you know, today people are more often just

144
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 2: asked to tolerate the presence of nearby beavers near their developments,

145
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 2: but whether or not we actually try to relocate beavers

146
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 2: like this today, it does appear that if you are

147
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 2: going to relocate beavers, this was a pretty successful method.

148
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 2: And they say in the article that the descendants of

149
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,960
Speaker 2: those beavers are probably still thriving in the basin where

150
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 2: they parachuted in back in nineteen forty eight. So thank

151
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 2: you for the email, Jeff Okay. The second message I'm

152
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,959
Speaker 2: going to look at today is in response to our

153
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 2: series about the Ignobel Prizes, specifically these studies on boredom

154
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,719
Speaker 2: in students. This message is from Ranata. Renata says, Hi,

155
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 2: Joe and Rob, I'm so glad you chose to talk

156
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 2: about papers on boredom from the Ignobel Prizes. I have

157
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 2: often thought about writing to you to suggest a topic

158
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 2: on boredom, and I agree with all the points you made.

159
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,320
Speaker 2: Here's my brief history with boredom and what I think

160
00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 2: it means. When I was in elementary school, I remember

161
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 2: a commercial came on TV with a line like, are

162
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 2: you stuck in a boring job? And I said to

163
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 2: my mom, having a boring job would be great. This

164
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 2: memory sticks in my brain because what she said next

165
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: was a piece of wisdom that I didn't understand at

166
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 2: the time and would take decades to unravel. She said,

167
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 2: you don't want a boring job. It's miserable. Fast forward

168
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 2: to a job I had as a consultant where the

169
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 2: work I was supposed to do wasn't ready yet, so

170
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,800
Speaker 2: I started to do other work, only to be scolded.

171
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,199
Speaker 2: My boss said that until the work came through, my

172
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 2: job was to sit at my desk and look busy

173
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 2: but not do any work, which was apparently my dream

174
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 2: job since childhood. But it was miserable. My mom was right.

175
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,360
Speaker 2: At one point my boss said, I can tell that

176
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 2: you get bored easily, which she meant as a criticism,

177
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 2: and finally relented and gave me the task of fixing

178
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,359
Speaker 2: formulas in a spreadsheet. Fast forward again to the pandemic,

179
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 2: and at this time a lot of people were talking

180
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 2: about how much free time they had and how boring

181
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 2: it was. For me, it was a time in my

182
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,120
Speaker 2: life that I was at my busiest, working sixty to

183
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 2: seventy hours a week, and I was miserable then too,

184
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,679
Speaker 2: and jealous of people who had so much free time

185
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 2: that they were bored. My boss, who thought that I

186
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,199
Speaker 2: got bored easily, probably meant that I abhor boredom, which

187
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,200
Speaker 2: I do and don't agree with. I think her assessment

188
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 2: stems from conflating a few types of boredom that you

189
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,240
Speaker 2: touched on in the episode. In my own experience, there

190
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,960
Speaker 2: are at least three types of boredom. Type number one

191
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 2: experiential boredom, when the experience you are having is boring.

192
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,439
Speaker 2: I spent all of elementary school in this state, and

193
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 2: it was a time that I was most creative and introspective.

194
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,079
Speaker 2: This boredom feels uncomfortable at times, but, like you mentioned,

195
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,440
Speaker 2: for kids in church and school, figuring out how to

196
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,800
Speaker 2: engage your mind and get inspiration from things around you

197
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,280
Speaker 2: is a great skill. She says, I love your theory,

198
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 2: Joe about entertainment being the opposite of this state. A

199
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 2: stupor of having thoughts put into your brain for you

200
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 2: a good podcast, show, book, etc. Should bore you a

201
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 2: little bit. In my opinion, to let your mind wander

202
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,719
Speaker 2: and react to what you're experiencing. I'd love to hear

203
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 2: your thoughts and research on how this relates to childhood development,

204
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 2: especially ADHD. Second type of boredom, Renata says is interstitial boredom.

205
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,719
Speaker 2: Those bits of time you find yourself with nothing to do,

206
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 2: like at an airport or waiting at the doctor's office.

207
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 2: As an adult, these are some of my favorite times.

208
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: It feels like I found a loophole that lets me

209
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,960
Speaker 2: not have to be an adult for a few minutes,

210
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 2: and I have the freedom to either try to fill

211
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 2: the time with a book, doodling, et cetera, or to

212
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,200
Speaker 2: be present in the space as it is. However, this

213
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,199
Speaker 2: boredom doesn't often happen at home, and if it does,

214
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel good, which leads to type three, existential boredom,

215
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,360
Speaker 2: the feeling that your life is boring and that you

216
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 2: are a boring person. This is a bad kind of boredom.

217
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 2: This is how I felt to the job where I

218
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to do work because it leads to feelings

219
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 2: of inadequacy and gives you way too much time to

220
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 2: think about everything you did wrong in your life that

221
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 2: led you to having a do nothing job. The quote

222
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 2: bored teacher might be in this camp, but my guess

223
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,680
Speaker 2: is that their apparent apathy usually has more to do

224
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,559
Speaker 2: with burnout than boredom. I don't believe the other two

225
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 2: types of boredom typically lead to existential boredom, but maybe

226
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,280
Speaker 2: if they go unchecked over a long portion of your life,

227
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 2: they could. Curious to hear your perspective. Thanks for taking

228
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 2: the time to read my letter. I'm glad you're still

229
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,160
Speaker 2: making an amazing podcast. PS. My current job is neither

230
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 2: too boring nor too busy. Thankfully the very best, Renata. Well,

231
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 2: thank you so much, Ranata. Yeah, I think we could

232
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 2: come back into a series of episodes on boredom because

233
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 2: there's a lot of interesting research. Ironically enough to address

234
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 2: your questions. First of all, I agree with your three

235
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 2: categories there. The interstitial boredom is very common. I think

236
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,559
Speaker 2: even when you have a lot of absorbing activites on

237
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,600
Speaker 2: your to do list, sometimes you're just stuck. You're stuck

238
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,240
Speaker 2: in a situation where you can't really get to any

239
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 2: of them. And I'm very glad to hear that you

240
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 2: are able to make good use of these moments. I

241
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 2: know other people in my family who have talked about

242
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 2: this as well. I think My mom has talked about

243
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 2: enjoying being at the dentist as she can just kind of,

244
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 2: you know, relax. I admire the ability to find the

245
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: good in those moments. I do tend to find these

246
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 2: periods really frustrating because I feel like the things that

247
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 2: I want and need to do with my attention usually

248
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 2: require some kind of sustained focus. And if I know

249
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: that I could be interrupted, you know, called back to

250
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 2: the doctor's office at any minute, and I'm listening for

251
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: my name, it's like hard to force myself to get

252
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 2: into that state of focus. With your category of existential boredom,

253
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,680
Speaker 2: I think this sort of highlights the link between the

254
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 2: feeling of boredom and the feeling of meaninglessness. If you

255
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 2: perceive what you are doing as without value or meaning,

256
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 2: you are more likely to feel bored. But if that

257
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 2: activity is not like waiting in line for fifteen minutes,

258
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,080
Speaker 2: but say the job you have to do every day,

259
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 2: it's easy to see how this can have a pernicious

260
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 2: effect on our well being and could make a person

261
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 2: question their self worth. In large part, we are what

262
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 2: we spend our time doing, and if you spend your

263
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 2: time doing something that you do not feel is meaningful.

264
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 2: Even if it's something you have to do, it will

265
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,359
Speaker 2: probably make you feel like you are not yourself meaningful.

266
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 2: And I think this is one reason that it's important

267
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 2: to incorporate multiple meaning structures in our lives. You know,

268
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 2: you can't invest all of your sense of meaning in

269
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 2: just one thing, especially not if it's like your job,

270
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 2: because if you are at some point stuck in a

271
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 2: job that feels valueless and brings on feelings of existential boredom,

272
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 2: you can have other structures like family and friendships and

273
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 2: art and religion and hobbies and projects that are there

274
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 2: to give you alternative routes to meaning. Let's see, regarding

275
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 2: your question about childhood development and ADHD, I don't feel

276
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 2: like I have enough knowledge to comment on that. I

277
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 2: do think it's interesting that you mention the idea that

278
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 2: a really good book, for example, should be just a

279
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 2: little bit boring enough to let you occasionally drift out

280
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,200
Speaker 2: of the process of reading and let you reflect on

281
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 2: what you've already read. And I think I really agree

282
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 2: with that. While you know, there are some books that

283
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 2: are just totally effortlessly absorbing, you know, the things we

284
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 2: would usually call page turners at least for me. While

285
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 2: I can absolutely enjoy a good pop thriller novel that

286
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 2: just pulls me relentlessly from one paragraph to another, these

287
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 2: types of books are rarely the ones that I look

288
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,480
Speaker 2: back on after I'm finished and think, Wow, that was

289
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 2: so interesting and valuable, I'm so glad I read that.

290
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,240
Speaker 2: Usually the books that I value the most in retrospect

291
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 2: are the ones that take a little more effort to

292
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 2: get through and sometimes would cause me to lose focus

293
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,439
Speaker 2: on the text itself and start reflecting on ideas that

294
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 2: it raises. And this kind of connects to another idea

295
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,440
Speaker 2: about boredom, which is that it seems to me, based

296
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 2: on what I've read, there's a kind of horseshoe spectrum

297
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,360
Speaker 2: of experiences that cause boredom, and the dimension along which

298
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 2: that horseshoe bends is that of challenge. So some things

299
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 2: are boring because they're too easy, and other things are

300
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,040
Speaker 2: boring because they're too difficult. So you can imagine an

301
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 2: adult would probably become bored trying to read a bunch

302
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,760
Speaker 2: of books meant for toddlers because there's nothing there's no challenge,

303
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 2: there's nothing to really stimulate the mind. But similarly, I

304
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,920
Speaker 2: think most adults would probably get bored trying to read

305
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 2: a book on a technical subject that they don't understand

306
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 2: very well. Think of the way that you would probably

307
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 2: get bored trying to do college coursework in a class

308
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 2: where you are hopelessly in over your head. You would think,

309
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 2: in a highly challenging situation where you know you're you're

310
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 2: dealing with coursework that's way over your your head, that

311
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,200
Speaker 2: would be a motivating state that would, you know, cause

312
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 2: you to get really into it and really, you know,

313
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 2: really want to focus your attention on the material and

314
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 2: understand it better. And I guess for some people sometimes

315
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 2: it does do that, but I think a lot of

316
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 2: the time it just causes a feeling of frustration and

317
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 2: hopelessness that makes one want to disengage with with this

318
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 2: this course material. You know, it's just like you feel

319
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: like you're never going to understand it, and thus any

320
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 2: attempt to understand it becomes intolerably boring. And so thinking

321
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 2: about this horseshoe sort of connects in my mind to

322
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 2: the idea of the psychology concept of the flow state.

323
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 2: You know, a flow state is a pleasurable state of

324
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,239
Speaker 2: intense foes and absorption in an activity or task that

325
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,479
Speaker 2: is usually evoked when we are operating consistently near the

326
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 2: peak of our abilities, so the task demands exactly what

327
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 2: you are able to give. If it demands too little,

328
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 2: then you get bored because you're not challenged. If it

329
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 2: demands too much, you get frustrated and want to quit,

330
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: which I think either is a form of boredom or

331
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 2: feel similar to boredom. I think a lot of really good,

332
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: highly valuable activities, like a really good valuable book or

333
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 2: a really good valuable project, are things that are right

334
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 2: beyond the scale of challenge where it's easy for us

335
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 2: to get into a flow state. They are a little,

336
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 2: but not a lot, more challenging than is comfortable. We're

337
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 2: able to make progress through these activities or in reading

338
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 2: this book or working on this project, but occasionally we

339
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: do get frustrated and confused and pulled out of the

340
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 2: zone and forced to reflect on our progress in some way.

341
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 2: I think those are a lot of the most valuable

342
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: things you can do or sort of write in that

343
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 2: sweet spot. It's just a little more difficult than is comfortable,

344
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: and thus it is just a little bit boring. Also,

345
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: I just wanted to mention a couple of papers related

346
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: to boredom that I was reading that I thought, we're interesting.

347
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 2: This is not directly related to anything you raised or not.

348
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,479
Speaker 2: But while we're on the subject, I can't recall if

349
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 2: this has ever come up on the show before, but

350
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: there was a paper published in the journal Science in

351
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 2: the year twenty fourteen called Just Think the Challenges of

352
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 2: the Disengaged Mind by Wilson at All. This is the

353
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 2: kind of charismatic result where I'd be cautious about putting

354
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 2: too much weight on it until I see it replicated

355
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 2: several times. But it does look like at least a

356
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 2: handful of studies have found similar things, so I think

357
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 2: this is probably basically sound. The authors here took a

358
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 2: bunch of research subjects college undergrads. For what that is worth,

359
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,360
Speaker 2: that may color your understanding of this result, but less

360
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 2: took these research subjects and put them in empty rooms

361
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,479
Speaker 2: without access to their personal belongings. So you couldn't, you know,

362
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 2: read a book or look at your cell phone or whatever,

363
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 2: and these would they would be put in these situations

364
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 2: for periods of between six and fifteen minutes, and the

365
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: subjects were forced to sit and think for a few

366
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 2: minutes with nothing to occupy, nothing external to occupy their

367
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 2: attention other than their thoughts. In some tests, they were

368
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 2: told to think about whatever they wanted. In others, they

369
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: were given a specific like a list of prompts maybe

370
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 2: to think about a specific subject, and then allowed to

371
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: plan in advance what they were going to think about.

372
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: And after this experience participants rated. They reported high rates

373
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: of boredom, and about half said that they found the

374
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: experience more unpleasant than pleasant. So it was a divided

375
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 2: feelings about this experience, but about half were like, I

376
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 2: didn't like that. A lot of participants preferred having something

377
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: to occupy their attention, like reading or music, would much

378
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: prefer that than just being forced to sit with their thoughts.

379
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: So that seems pretty understandable that most people would rather

380
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 2: have a positive experience than an experience that might induce boredom.

381
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: But the really surprising result that was in one of

382
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: the subsequent studies published in this paper was that in

383
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: the fifteen minute condition, the researchers found that when they

384
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 2: gave participants the ability to push a button to administer

385
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: a mild electric shock to themselves, a lot of board

386
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: subjects push the button. There was a large gender divide

387
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: in these specific results. Among this cohort, twenty five percent

388
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: of women and sixty seven percent of men decided they

389
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: would rather voluntarily choose to receive an electric shock than

390
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 2: just sit there and be bored. And I think this

391
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: has interesting implications for our understanding of boredom as a

392
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 2: motivating state. I mean, it makes me wonder about the

393
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 2: adaptive utility of boredom as a motivation to escape the

394
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,239
Speaker 2: state of being bored. You know, it seems like it

395
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: must serve some kind of important purpose, forcing us to

396
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 2: sometimes even do things that we expect to be painful,

397
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 2: or do things that we don't want to do, just

398
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: to get out of the situation of being bored. Now,

399
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: there's an important caveat to this, which is that this

400
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 2: finding has been applied to the concept of boredom, But

401
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,239
Speaker 2: technically it was about forcing people to be alone with

402
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: their thoughts, which might or might not have been perceived

403
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: by the subjects as boring. Some subjects might have found

404
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: it quite entertaining. But I think it's a fairly safe

405
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: assumption that probably a lot of the people who shocked

406
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: themselves did so because they were bored and this race

407
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: is a question like would the same number of people

408
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: shock themselves as a result of any kind of negative

409
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 2: experience or is it something specific about bored or at

410
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 2: least what we assumed to be boredom. I looked at

411
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: another study that was following up on this. This was

412
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: by chantal nadercorn at All published in the journal Psychiatry

413
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: Research in twenty sixteen called self inflicted Pain out of Boredom.

414
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: In this study followed up by asking participants to watch

415
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: a film and they had the ability to choose to

416
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: administer mild electric shocks to themselves while watching. And this

417
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: was so there was like a neutral control film. There

418
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: was a film designed to elicit the negative emotion of sadness,

419
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: and then there was a monotonous film designed to elicit boredom.

420
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: And they did indeed find quote participants in the boredom

421
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: condition self administered more shocks and with higher intensity compared

422
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: to both the neutral and sadness condition. So it does

423
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: look likely that a lot of people would rather experience

424
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: mild physical pain than boredom, and that even the negative

425
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: experience of pain was judged at LEAs east in advance

426
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: sufficient to alleviate boredom. That raises another question for me,

427
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: which is I wonder how effective it was, Like did

428
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: the people who gave themselves a shock feel less bored afterwards?

429
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: Or is the shock only an illusory promise of avoiding boredom?

430
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: I don't know, but anyway, to wrap this up, thanks

431
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 2: again Renata for the email and for raising this issue again. Ironically,

432
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: I do find the psychology of boredom to be quite fascinating.

433
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: So that's going to be it for today's Listener Mail episode,

434
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: but we will read more listener Mail next Monday. On

435
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays of each week we do our core

436
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind episodes, which are usually about

437
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: science and culture in some way. Wednesdays we do a

438
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: short feature called The Artifact or the Monster Fact. On

439
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: Fridays we do a series called Weird House Cinema where

440
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: we each week pick a movie strange film, good or bad,

441
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 2: well known or obscure, as long as it's weird. We

442
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: watch it and we talk about it. And on Saturdays

443
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: we run an episode from the Fault. If you are

444
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: not subscribed to this show, why not go subscribe now

445
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: We're called Stuff to Blow your Mind and you can

446
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: find us wherever you get your podcasts huge thanks to

447
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If you would like

448
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

449
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

450
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 2: or even just to say hello, you can email us

451
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

452
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

453
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

454
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.