WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - February 13th, 2026 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.000 This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily reporting from the magazine 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.599 that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.520 and trends shaping today's complex economy, plus global business finance 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.280 and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Weekdaily 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:31.320 Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.160 Hi everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.400 It was a week defined by cross currents that included 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.320 a closely watched US jobs report that came not on 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.559 a Friday but on a Wednesday, and it did come 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.560 in stronger than expected and it sent US treasure yields higher. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.760 We also had the AI scare trade rotating through and 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:52.760 taking down sectors throughout the week. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.440 Also always in the backdrop global alliances evolving and causing 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.080 some unease for investors. You can check out all of 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.000 this on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com. As 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:03.960 for US, this week, we focus on the demand for 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.800 power and critical minerals, yes because of the AI data 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.800 center boom, and also as the US looks to shore 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.800 up at stockpiles on everything on that do you mining 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.279 leaders partner up. We'll hear from the CEOs of United 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.880 States Antimony Corporation, in America's Gold and Silver Corporation. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.480 And on that surge and energy demand for AI and 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.959 more might geothermal be part of the solution? More on 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.840 the race to unlock reliable, carbon free power from beneath 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.640 our feet with the CEO of SAGE Geosystems. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.680 We're tapping into hot, dry rock. This is what that 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.880 next generation geothermal is. So it's rock that has the heat, 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.560 but it doesn't have that large body of water. And 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.560 what that allows you to do is increase the geology 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.160 that you can find that heat. So instead of the 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.480 two percent, you're talking about fifty or sixty percent of 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:53.920 the geothermal around the world. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.440 And later on in our second hour, the CEO of 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.760 ANGI on earnings and what it says about American spending 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:01.800 or not spending on their homes. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.680 We can tell you that last year, we've talked about 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.160 this before, we saw a big disruption in April May. 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.080 We saw things sort of get back to normal in 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:10.920 the second half of the year, and I think in 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.960 December there was some compression. And if you go out 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.920 and you look at consumer confidence statistics like consumer confidence 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.040 was down almost thirty percent year over year November December, 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.560 and I think the early read was down twenty in January. 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.280 So we do see some signs that there's some shifts, 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.120 nothing major, nothing scary, but we do see some shifts 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:32.200 in homeowner behavior. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.560 Also in our second hour, he was there at the 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.840 dawn of cable. He led Viacom and co created MTV. 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.440 Media industry veteran Tom Freston stops by to talk Unplugged, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.239 his new book on his adventures from MTV to Timbuk too. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:46.800 The idea that. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.600 You know, you could compete with something like Vivo and 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.960 YouTube where people could get any video they wanted on 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.680 demand on the internet once the Internet was capable of 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.680 really streaming video in full fours was you know, it 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:04.200 was unattractive proposition. So you ended up with what you 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.160 have today, which is a network Beriff of music whose 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.040 name used to be Music Television. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.560 Plus longevity tourism, social saunas and the boom and wearables. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.440 Our Bloomberg Pursuits team on the quest to live longer 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.720 and what we give up along the way. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:20.760 All of that to come. We begin with a company 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.000 whose stock is one of the best performing in the 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.440 S and P five hundred this year. Generak, the maker 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.679 of home and industrial power systems, you know, things like generators, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.080 missed fourth quarter Wall Street estimates when it reported this 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.240 past week, with both revenue and earnings per share lower. 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.440 Despite the soft numbers, it's stock actually rallied after the 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.120 company forecast a twenty twenty six EPADU margin range with 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.720 a midpoint above analyst consensus, driven by stronger demand from 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.400 data centers and commercial customers breaking all down for us. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.760 The chairman, president and CEO of Generak, Aaron Yogfeld. 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.480 Yeah, so the back half of the year, we actually 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.120 had a lot less outerge activity. So our residential business 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.560 for portable generators, homestand by generators really depends heavily on 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.080 mother nature, honestly to help us drive demand for those products. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:08.840 And so it was a very quiet back half of 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.920 the year. The fourth quarter in particular, back half of 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.440 the year was ninety percent lower in outage hours versus 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.680 the year before. So sometimes that happens, and you know, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.440 we guide based on kind of average outage activity, and 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.919 we got a lot of blow active below outage activity 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:22.400 in the quarter. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.040 Well it's interesting, you know, So what gives you confidence 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.520 around mid teen's growth when the weather has been the 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.279 primary culprit for weak residential sales in twenty twenty five. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.800 Yeah, so on the residential side, you know, obviously we 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.719 think a return to normal outage environment that will happen. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:39.640 I mean, we will get ice storms again. We had 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.039 one in January right with with the winter storm Fern. 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:44.640 So we're off to a good start here this year, 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.400 and so we feel like, you know, we're going to 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.600 return to more normal kind of the outages and more 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.320 normal patterns, if you will. We've got some pricing in 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.240 there as well. You know, the consumer for our products 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.960 is pretty healthy still. You know, I think there's concerns 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.360 about the consumer across the broader economy, but when your 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.080 power goes out, you know, these are products that tend 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.240 to become a priority for households. So you know, we're 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.880 not very worried about about the consumer's health for at 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:10.720 least for our category. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.640 Yeah, Aaron, explain the consumer behavior here? Is it that 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.160 a consumer without a generator goes through a power outage 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.039 in the middle of winter or the middle of the 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.760 summer and says I never want to experience this again. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.240 And you know, when they get power back, they call 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:26.200 somebody to install a generator. Is that how it works? 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.120 You've got it right. And in fact, I would just 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:28.720 point this out. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.440 You know, winter outages tend to drive people to that 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.400 point a lot faster than summer outages. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:34.760 And when you have an outage in. 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.000 The summer, you know, maybe it's nice enough and temperate 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.360 enough outside and open the windows and you can kind 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.280 of push through and survive in the dark if you 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.800 had to. Winter is a whole different ballgame if you 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:45.520 lose your power in the winter time, especially if you 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.800 live in the Northern States, or or in the case 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.279 with Winterstorm Fern, even in the Southern States where you 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.000 had you know, just tremendously cold weather. You get pipes 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:54.840 that freeze, you get a lot of damage in your 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.120 home and a lot of things just you know, your 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:58.200 home becomes unlivable. 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.479 There's kind of an SS moment there for Tim. It 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.440 happened in no power during the conbot. Hey, what I 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.720 want to ask you is investors are really noticing the forecast. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.400 You're twenty twenty six ebit a margin range. How much 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.919 of what's going on the growth the magnitude is it 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:18.640 all because of data centers. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.680 Yeah, I mean, obviously largely. The headline here is our 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.000 entry into the data center market. 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.719 We started shipping products, our first products in the fourth quarter, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.719 and we're ramping. We're going to scale this year. We're 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.360 having some very meaningful conversations as we work towards a 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.360 final contract negotiations with a number of hyperscale customers. And 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.360 you know this is going to be for us. It's 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.640 a generational opportunity. You know, the backup power that is 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.720 required by each data center site. I mean you can 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:51.080 literally have hundreds of large gen sets sitting there waiting 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.839 for outages to happen, and the project size that they're enormous, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.720 and the opportunity is equal to that. 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.599 Is this all about the large megawatt generators? Is it 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.839 all about out that that's what the demand is for 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:03.560 I want you to get into. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:05.719 What is the AI play for you guys? 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.680 Yeah, for the most part, So there's for us, there's 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:10.160 a direct day I play, which is, you know, you 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.200 build a data center, you need to have backup power 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.560 because even a second of downtime, there are you know, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.920 there are requirements there, commitments that they've made to their 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.520 customers and their penalties and things that kick in if 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.720 they can't supply information or the you know, the AI 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.240 models different, you know, depending on what they've contracted that 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.800 data center out to do. Basically, they've got to have 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.320 a continuous source of power, so they invest in backup 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.320 generators for those facilities, and that's a product that we're 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.200 new into and that's a huge opportunity. The indirect side 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.160 of data centers is pretty interesting though, and as more 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.440 data centers come online, you're going to see a lot 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.280 more requirements for power. Right, demand is going to grow 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.200 for electricity. We have supply constraints in particular. You know, 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:50.920 there are parts of the grid around the US like 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.600 PJAM as an example up in the northeast. Yeah, now 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.880 this is a major concern on very hot days, very 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.720 cold days. Going forward, you're going to see more brownouts, 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.320 more blackouts, and that's going to lead obviously to more 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.560 opportunities for us in some of our core products like 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.920 homestand by generators for homeowners and other generators for businesses 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:08.560 and things like that. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.280 So, okay, so we each have a million questions that 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:12.600 we want to do. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.480 You want to go back to resident Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.320 So the might be shopping for a generator. 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.440 But there's there's an interesting thing happening in some parts 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.640 of the country. And you know, I don't want to 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.920 get in the details of new laws in New York City, 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.200 for example, but some places are you know years ago 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.920 a few years ago argued that we want to just 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.319 get rid of gas lines in general and don't want 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:39.200 fossil fuel hookups within new buildings. So new construction in 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.080 some parts of the country doesn't have any gas How 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.640 do you account for that with a product that you 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.640 know you want to have connected to a continuous gas line. 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.040 Right, I mean, obviously you can use LP, right, so 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:53.760 if you have an LP tank or a propane tank, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:55.560 that works just as fine. In fact, a lot of 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.320 our installations in parts of the country like Florida, you know, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.959 homes down there don't have connections to, you know, a 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.640 gas line because it's just it's untenable for them to 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.280 be able to put that infrastructure in. So you know 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.719 what's interesting, like in policy driven areas like New York, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.760 when it comes to let's not have new net gas hookups, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.000 oddly enough, you can still have a propane gas hookup, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.080 So you know, those are the ways to kind. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:19.840 Of navigate around some of those challenges. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:21.720 And again, you're using it for an emergency, right, this 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.400 is not a continuous used product, So you know, I 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.240 think really cooler heads should prevail when it comes to 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:28.960 certain policies like that. I mean, you want to make 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.439 sure that homeowners, businesses have access to emergency backups solutions, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.560 right backup, power, backup, you know, batteries, things of that nature, 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.200 and those are the things that I think we've got 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.640 to be careful of when we do policy related things 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.000 like like you know, no net gas, new hookups. You 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.400 sometimes there's unintended consequences of that and we've got to 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:47.160 be careful about that. 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.400 Hey, Aaron, you guys have been expanding and earlier this 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.440 year you talked about the acquisition of a new facility 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.120 in Sussex, Wisconsin, and you are quoted in that release 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.280 saying our commitment to aggressively invest in serving this booming 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.320 segment off a generational, generational opportunity. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:03.160 You've used that word. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.080 Before, for generations with the potential of doubling our sales 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.080 of C and I products in the next three to 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:10.000 five years. 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:11.640 How confident are you on this? 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.280 Is it likely more on the conservative side or more 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:15.679 on the optimistic side. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.040 Yeah, it's interesting when we so we've been having these 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.200 high quality conversations with data center co locators and hyper 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.319 scale operators, and you know, there's obviously a massive. 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.840 Deficit of supply for backup power generation. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.960 Today based on all of the things that are on 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.960 the drawing board to go in the ground for new 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.000 data center construction in the years ahead. So our entry 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.240 into this market, you know, we came into the market, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.000 we thought there'd be some interest in the product, but 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.360 we maybe undersize that and to be to be blunt, 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.360 you know, we went ahead and we acquired a new 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.880 facility and with an eye towards doubling our capacity. We 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.280 said on our third quarter call, we thought we had 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.200 about five hundred million dollars of global capacity to serve. 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:54.920 The data center market. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.400 We now have doubled that to over a billion dollars 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.000 with the acquisition of that plant and some of the 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.880 other investments we're making. This is a again we keep 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.040 using that word generational, but it's true. You know sometimes 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:07.560 in business, you know, you can be with a company 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.000 like I have for over thirty years and maybe never 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.400 see something as interesting as this in terms of opportunity, 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:15.360 and I just it feels like one of those moments 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:16.800 that we have got to go after this and you 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.920 see it. I mean, look, you see what other industries 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.800 are dealing with HVAC. You're seeing other power companies and 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.200 things that you know, the infrastructure needed to handle the 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.040 data center boom that's on six hundred and fifty billion 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.600 dollars right of hyper scale dollars that are going to 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.679 go to work here on cap out capital expenditures in 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:34.439 twenty twenty six. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:35.800 They're going to go into things. 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.720 Like generators in HVAC equipment and cabling and all the 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:40.400 things that make these centers real. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.000 Aaron, we only have about thirty seconds left, but a 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:44.880 lot to hit just in the last bit of time 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:46.920 that we have with you. All the challenges of doing 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.560 this in the United States, doing this domestically, finding labor 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.559 for this the biggest challenge for you as you're running 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:54.440 this business right now. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.800 Absolutely the biggest challenge for us is, you know, the 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.760 continuing shortage of labor. There's no question that you know, 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:02.440 in terms of the number of people that are going 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.320 into manufacturing from a career standpoint, that continues to be 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.199 a real challenge. And of course now with trade policy 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.040 being what it is, you know, there's a lot of 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:12.920 things that are coming back on shore, which is great, 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:14.800 but it just puts a lot more that much more 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:16.839 pressure on, you know, the labor force. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.000 It's the shame you're not optimistic. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:19.840 Eron. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.920 I try not to be. I try to be conservative. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.920 Listen, we so appreciate it all the time. You always 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.840 give us. Be well. Aaron Yetbel, He's Chairman Presidency of GENERAK. 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:38.000 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily podcast. Catch us 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.520 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.120 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.080 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.280 Hey, I want to talk a little bit about energy. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.480 So in October Bloomberg reported on how for the first 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.480 time in the years the US futtle government at least 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.480 every parcel of public land it's open for geothermal development 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.200 and at record prices. On that. Just last month, Bloomberg's 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.480 Michelle ma reporting that Ormont Technology is one of the 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.400 world's biggest geothermal energy developers. Co led a ninety seven 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.640 million dollars series we funding around for a company that's 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.040 tapping hot rocks to generate electricity. 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.679 Yeah, that startup, Sage Geosystems. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.599 It is one of the companies leading the post to 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:20.959 utilize innovative technology to really harness energy from the ground 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.840 and meet surging power demand from artificial intelligence. You know 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.240 from everything that we've talked about that this demand to 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.520 build out AI data centers means a lot of powers needed, 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.840 and whether it's going to be solar or nuclear or 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.560 carbon based, we needed all geothermal as well. So let's 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:38.760 get more on the company for that, we do head 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.480 to Houston, Texas and to Cindy Taff She's CEO of 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.920 Sage Geosystems. She spent more than three decades in the 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.520 oil and gas industry, including most recently as VP of 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.839 Unconventional Wells and Logistics over at Shell. She's had teams 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.000 around the globe. We are so delighted to have you here. 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.920 We've been looking forward to having you on. Tell us 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.679 a little bit about your company. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.079 You no, thanks for having me on love talking about 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.640 next generation geothermal. So, yeah, we founded Stage about five 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.200 years ago. So, as you described, my background is oil 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.120 and gas. My co founders, Levering and Lance Cook, their 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.480 background is oil and gas. However, they spent their careers 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.040 doing something a little bit different than I did. They 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.200 are the scientists, the innovators, so they created a lot 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.320 of very challenging technologies for the oil and gas industry. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.520 And so we're using that knowledge of the subsurface and 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.520 of our oil and gas background to advance what we're 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.640 calling next generation geothermal, what the industry calls next generation geothermal. 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.560 Okay, so people think of geothermal, they think of the 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:46.160 uh okay, I'm sorry to Bruce, my freshman year geology teacher, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:47.960 because I'm gonna butcher this a little bit. But they 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:49.600 think of the h don't do it, don't do it, 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.040 you know, the warm temperatures of the as you go 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.520 further down when you drill, and using that heat water 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:57.440 to generate steam. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:57.840 Correct. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.520 Yeah, Tim, So maybe just a brief overview. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.320 She's like, yeah, I'll give you like a C minus, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.040 but I'll just take it from here. Then go ahead. 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.560 When most people think about geothermal, even myself when I'm 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.680 still at Shell, you think about Iceland or the guys 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.560 are in California, and so that's conventional geothermal. That's where 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:26.240 you're drilling into a hot pocket or pool of water 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:31.400 that's just below the surface. It's it's very convenient if 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.720 you have a volcano or the ring of fire in 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.920 your backyard, because that is the circumstances that you need 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.640 for that very unicorn geology to find the conventional geothermal. 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.560 So the challenge is that it represents only about two 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.120 percent of the geothermal around the world. What Sage is doing, 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.360 and there's other companies of course in the industry, is 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.920 we're tapping into hot, dry rock. This is what that 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:59.080 next generation geothermal is. So it's rock that has the heat, 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.760 but it doesn't have that large body of water. And 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.720 what that allows you to do is increase the geology 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.360 that you can find that heat. So instead of the 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.680 two percent, you're talking about fifty or sixty percent of 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.360 the geothermal around the world. And the only reason why 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.760 it's not one hundred percent is because in some areas 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.040 like eastern US, the heat is there, but it's very 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.680 deep and just not economic to drill for. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:30.560 Hey, my understanding is we've seen Alphabet's Google Meta platforms 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.200 among the data center operators who have actually ink deals 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.640 with geothermal companies to provide the power. Meta is a 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.440 partner with you guys tell us about that partnership and 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.680 what does inking a deal mean, like, are they pooning 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.360 up money? Are they helping you in development? And I'm 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:50.880 also curious how much power can geothermal ultimately provide and 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.640 how long does it take to kind of ramp up? 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.560 Yeah, so no great questions. So, yes, we have a 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.520 term sheet with Meta, so we are going to be 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.520 that will become a virtual PPA. So we'll be building 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.640 geothermal into the vicinity of one of their data centers, 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.560 but we'll be putting it on the same grid that 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.440 they're taking power off of, so that gives us flexibility 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.680 on location and it's but it's still a virtual PPA. 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:18.240 Yeah, power purchase agreement. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.040 Yeah, sorry, virtual power purchase agreement. That's exactly right. So 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.840 we like the flexibility of not having to necessarily put 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.840 the power in the backyard of the data centers, although 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.240 into the future that seems to be probably the solution 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.240 that we're all headed for, so that you don't congest 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:41.639 the grid. And so that's what our agreement with Meta is. 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:46.480 Now to your other question, what is the resource? What's 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.800 the size of the resource. So when we talk about 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.480 conventional geothermal, again, those large pools of hot water just 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.440 below the surface, you're talking about forty gigawatts, but if 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.720 you can expand it to this, you know, hot dry rock, 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:05.040 you're talking about between five and seven terrawas and this 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.040 isn't the lower forty eight US only. So if you 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.520 do that around the world, you know that the resource 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:11.840 potential is huge. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.040 So I'm curious about sort of these these PPAs that 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:20.640 you have and why we're not necessarily hearing as much 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.880 from the government about this type of energy development versus 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.879 natural gas. And of course nuclear geothermal doesn't seem to 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:32.400 get a lot of. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:38.280 Love, a lot more love as of late. So well, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.840 one thing I will say is geothermal has always been 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.760 supported by both sides of the aisle. The current administration, 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:50.400 especially with Chris Wright as the Energy Secretary. He is 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.520 very familiar not only with conventional geothermal, but with next 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:58.840 generation geothermal and the resource growth that you can have 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.359 in that area. And you've seen geothermal in a couple 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.879 of the Executive orders. It's actually very well supported in 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.680 the One Big Beautiful Bill. So you know, I think 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:17.040 geothermal is coming into a huge momentum, supported you know, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.800 supported by not only the last administration, but also very 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:22.160 much by this administration. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.960 We're talking tout Cindy Taffski's chief executive officer of SAGE Geosystems. 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.879 Joining us from Houston, Texas are Bloomberg ne Ef folks 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.680 who track all things energy, have noted that the primary 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:37.400 downside of geothermal energy include high upfront capital costs, long 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.479 project development timelines, and potential seismic risks. So earthquakes from drilling, 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:42.800 can you address those? 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:44.800 Yeah? 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:49.320 So it is an infrastructure, you know projects, So yes, 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.520 upfront capital costs are are large. Just like a lot 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:57.000 of infrastructure projects. Timelines can be longer. I mean, you know, 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.159 if you want to invest, say in a software, you 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.000 know you're going to know in six months whether that 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.280 software is going to be successful. In an infrastructure project, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.359 it's going to be two or three years until you 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.200 know that that is successful. As far as earthquakes, yeah, 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.600 I'd actually like to talk about that, And so it 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.040 really depends on how you're operating in the subsurface. So 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.800 the earthquake and tremors that you have seen from say 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.280 the oil and gas industry or other industries, is when 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:32.440 they're pumping water continuously or any type of fluid into 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.879 the subsurface and it will find its way to natural 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.399 faults and fractures that are connected to what they call 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.360 the basement rock. It'll lubricate those fractures and make those 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.480 fractures slide or slip, and that's what results in the earthquake. 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.240 What we're doing with we are using fractures to harvest 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.239 the heat because in a matter of a week you 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.000 can create very large surface contact areas with those fractures. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.560 But the way we're operating our is we're putting water 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.360 into that fracture, but then we're taking it out. We're 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:06.919 putting it in and we're taking it out, and so 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:12.080 we're not pumping volume upon volume into that that subsurface, 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.760 meaning that we're not going to we have we have 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.800 a less less likelihood of connecting to these natural faults 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.240 which would result in the earthquake. So I think the 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.520 the risk at least for the way we operate our 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.200 fractures at SAGE is a lot lower than what you're 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.359 seeing in the oil and gas industry, in particular in 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.080 the disposal of water, which is a waste product for 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:34.680 the oil and gas. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:36.160 Oh okay, so that's what I want to talk about. 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.119 As Carol always says, there's there's no such thing as 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.600 a free lunch. And you know, coming from the American 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.200 West and growing up in drought stricken California, I'm curious 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.760 about where you can do this where there is an 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.720 abundance of water, so you're you're not actually using that 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:50.600 natural resource. 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.720 Yeah, Tam, it's a great question. We do need water. 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:59.040 We I will say that the water needed for our 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.040 operations less than a coal plant. It's less than a 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:07.640 combined cycle natural gas. And that's because we are reusing 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.720 the water. We're putting it into the subsurface to harvest 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.440 the heat or absorb the heat, and then we're using 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.120 it as a carrier to bring that heat to surface, 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:18.600 and then we turn around and we pump it back 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:23.240 into the subsurface. And so in our geothermal applications, that 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.160 water stays in a pressurized system. So the losses are 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.199 what we've measured is less than two percent. So you 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:32.640 don't have to use a lot of makeup water because 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.000 you're not losing a lot of water to the production 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.960 of the energy. So we do need upfront water volumes, 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.439 but again those losses being less than two percent, the 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.320 makeup water is very immaterial. 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.120 Hey, Sinny just got about thirty seconds I mean, ultimately 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.840 it comes down to we saw this with solar and wind, 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:55.920 cost comparisons between that alternative energy and existing forms of energy, 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.439 and also the financial viability. So where does geothermal fit in? 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.040 Does it have a way to go before it can 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.639 be like, oh, well this makes sense financially. 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.399 Yeah, Carol, I think we are. We're when the solar 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.800 we're fifteen years ago right now, ten to twelve cents 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.240 a kill a wa hour if you're above scale, that 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.040 can be driven down to six to seven cents of 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.119 kill a ona hour at scale. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.040 Cool stuff, Stay in touch. Love this, Love this. 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:24.440 Cindy Taft, chief executive Officer of Stage Geosystems, joining us 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.000 from Houston, Texas. 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:31.440 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:34.399 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.320 Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.200 You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:44.359 flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:45.720 Well. 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.480 You might recall earlier this month Bloomberg exclusively reporting out 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.399 that President Trump was set to launch a strategic critical 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.000 mineral stockpile with twelve billion dollars in seed money, all 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.879 in a bid to insulate manufacturers from supply shocks as 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.760 the US works to slash its reliance on Chinese rare 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.639 earths and other metals. Meantime, you see a lot of 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:06.360 companies doing deal in the space time. 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:08.560 Yeah, I'm at the shares of America's Gold and Silver 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.920 Corporation rally it as much as eight percent this after 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:15.280 the miners said it would partner with United States Antimony 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.240 to construct and operate an antimony processing plan and IDAH 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:19.840 host some details here and then we're going to get 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:22.640 to the conversation. Facility will be fifty one percent owned 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:25.720 by America's Golden Silver and forty nine percent owned by 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:29.400 US Antimony. It'll be located in the Silver Valley in Idaho. 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:30.919 All right, So let's get to it. Great to have 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:31.320 with US. 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:35.000 Gary Evans, chairman and CEO of United States Antimony Corporation. 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:37.440 It's a one point one billion dollar market cap minor, 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:40.840 producer and seller of antimony products. It's based in Montana. 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:43.320 Stock is up sixty six percent year to date, about 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:44.440 twenty one percent of the float. 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:46.600 Short also with US as Paul. 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.080 Andre Hewitt, he is chairman and CEO of the two 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.880 point six billion dollar market cap precious metal miner based 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.159 in Ontario, Canada. It is America's gold and silver corporation. 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.240 That company shares are up about sixty one percent year 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.280 to date. Gary and Paul both joining out us here 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:00.720 in studio. 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:01.840 Welcome, Welcome, welcome. 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:06.720 Tell us about this joint venture, the financial aspects, how 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:09.920 it actually logistically works down, and what it means in 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:13.640 terms of critical minerals in the US and just kind 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:14.240 of elsewhere. 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:15.560 So whoever wants to pick it up. 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.960 Yeah, I'll just start. So, look, this joint venture. We've 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.000 been working on it actually not that long, to be 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.399 very honest. Actually Gary and I were talking about it. 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.120 We met about a month ago. We one month ago 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:29.800 we met, both teams assembled at the Mind Sight in Idaho. 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:33.920 His executive team, my executive team. We were signing documents 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:36.280 late last night with our legal teams, both of us, 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:38.840 at ten thirty at night, finalizing this and this is 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:43.359 a transformational deal. Actually, this allows us to supply a 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:47.119 product antimony to the US from the beginning right to 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:50.959 the end. So us Gary's the expert in the antimony world, 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.280 we're the experts in the mining world. And what we 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:57.160 have is a mine, the Galanina Mine in Idaho. Right now, 0:25:57.160 --> 0:26:00.639 we've got about three hundred and thirty employees. Just bought 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:03.480 a second mine in Idaho. We closed it in December, 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:08.120 so we bought the original one, transferred the whole management team, 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:11.720 and made some big upgrades in capital. What we're doing 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.720 is revolutionizing this mine. This mine's been around for a 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:18.320 long time and it's it produces five critical minerals, So 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:23.879 we produce silver, copper, antimony, lead, and then a small 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.280 amount of gold, but they're all five critical minerals, which 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:29.800 is very very important. This deal is very important to 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.200 US and US miners and to the US as a 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:35.120 whole because we need fifty million pounds of antimony per 0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:38.280 annum and we're not even close to producing it, not yet. 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:41.560 So this will allow us to start chewing away and 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:43.879 getting some of that antimony produced domestically. 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.560 So Paul andre Hugh had given us the America's Gold 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:50.159 and Silver Corporation view. Gary Evans, come on back in 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:52.920 here and talk about why this deal made sense for you. 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:54.320 At US antimony. 0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:57.199 As you know, we're the only two we have the 0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:01.240 only two smelters for antimony in North America, So Montana 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.720 and Mexico. And currently we're getting most of our supply 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:11.400 from foreign sources and get it from the country of Chad, Peru, Bolivia, Australia, Chile, Mexico, 0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:17.120 and we are looking for homegrown antimony. We are already 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:22.680 processing Paul's antimony through another facility up in Canada. We 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:25.840 receive that and we can make antimony trisul fight out 0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:29.520 of it. So the idea of when we met a 0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.840 month ago, met our two management teams got together. We 0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:36.680 immediately said, look, this is an easy answer. We'll put 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:41.080 our new technology we developed in Bolivia. Last year we 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:47.080 made the first commercial grade antimony hydromet facility and now 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.239 we receive one hundred and fifty tons a month of 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:50.800 antimony from that facility. 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:52.879 We can duplicate that in the United States. 0:27:52.960 --> 0:27:55.520 So we have the technology, we have the patents, we 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.520 have the license for North America and Australia. He has 0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:00.680 a land, he has a supply. So it was a 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:01.560 marriage made in heaven. 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:03.960 So why weren't you processing here in the US. 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:08.239 Well, we are processing, but it's using foreign supplies. So 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:11.639 he has domestic supplies which the country doesn't have. 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:14.800 This new so the processing facility that you're going to 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:18.480 be building. Yes, give us timeline. When is it going 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:19.720 to be running up at commercials? 0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:20.359 Great question. 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:24.440 He fortunately has all the permanent so we needed right. Okay, 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.760 so we were in the construction engineering phase. Now we 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:30.120 should start within ninety days. It be done in a year. 0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:32.920 Wow, So in a year. Yeah, it's up in functioning. 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:33.360 Yeah. 0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:35.440 If you think about the last one, sorry to interrupt, 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:37.159 the last one that was built in the US was 0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:40.880 built in nineteen forty two at that same area in 0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:43.360 Silver Valley, and it took six months to build it 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:46.640 during World War Two that was actually built. Gary's team 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:50.800 just built one in six months in Bolivia. So these 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:54.760 are not massive facilities, but they're very important. So we 0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:57.960 will once we get the Once we get the engineering 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.600 stages and everything done and we start construction, it'll go 0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:01.600 pretty quick from that time. 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.360 Carol mentioned Project Vault earlier this month, Bloomberg exclusively reporting 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:08.120 out that President Trump set to launch a strategic critical 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:12.440 mineral stockpile with twelve billion dollars in seed money. Gary, 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:14.560 have you been in touch with the White House the 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:17.240 administration at all about this? How much antimony do you 0:29:17.240 --> 0:29:18.719 expect the stockpile will hold well. 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.440 We currently have a contract with a DLA, which is 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:24.080 an Apartment of War, for two hundred and forty five 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:26.920 million dollars to deliver antimony. 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:27.960 Ingots, which is like a goal bar. 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:30.880 There's an antimony bar's cereal stamp to put it on 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:33.080 a pallette. We shrink, rep it and we send it 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:36.640 to the government. It's strictly for inventory for all the 0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:40.920 subcontractors of the government. Could be Boying Northland, could be 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.920 General Motors. They need antimony to make their products. So 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.360 we are the stockpiler for the government, and we're the 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:50.720 only approved company. In fact, when it went out to 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:53.960 gub dot com, it said the United States Antimony Corporation 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:57.880 is the only company capable of bidding on this contract. 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.560 And so the fact that we've been around fifty something 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:02.800 years we can do this. And so now we can 0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:07.720 take America's gold Silver's antimony through our new hydromet process 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:08.680 and do the same thing. 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:10.240 Have you talked to the White House just in the 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:11.520 last few months about. 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:13.520 This, Well, General Jack Kean, I don't know if you 0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:15.720 know who he is. He's on our board of directors 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:19.880 and so he's been very helpful. We've already won the 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:23.440 DLA contract. We have a Department of War grant coming 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:27.480 with our now new joint venture, we'll find a new 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.080 white paper with an Apartment of War. 0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:31.800 We filed a. 0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.600 Grant requested Apartment of Energy for forty five million dollars 0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:37.920 January fifteenth. So we are constantly in the mixed seeking 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:39.880 capital to help grow the center price. 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.640 We're talking with Gary Evans, chairman and CEO of US Antimony, 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:46.680 and Paul Andrehwitt at CEO at America's Gold and Silver Corporation. 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.360 Without the US support and backing, would this be happening. 0:30:51.120 --> 0:30:54.240 Yeah, Look, there's no doubt what's happening now is changing 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:55.880 things for us, and it's opening guards this. 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.440 Project, financially changing it, making it well. 0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:00.360 We're going to be one of the first group, Carol 0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.280 actually putting in submitting this white paper for capital. 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:04.680 Okay, and nobody's done that yet. 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:07.120 Okay, we're the first, so which is really important. And 0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:09.400 I was just at the White House. In fact, I've 0:31:09.400 --> 0:31:14.480 met with a couple of Senators, governor, congressman, and it's 0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:19.440 very clear that this this project vault this it creates 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.120 a floor. It allows us to not have that volatility 0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:24.760 that we're up against. You know, we've got to prepare 0:31:24.800 --> 0:31:27.560 ourselves for if China is going to dump a whole 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:29.440 bunch of antimony on the market, We've got to be 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:32.200 able to protect that pricing for us, like people like 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:33.880 us who are producing it domestically. 0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:36.280 Well, let's go there, because you know, you also have 0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:39.000 the US reaching agreements with the European Union to PanAm 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:43.080 Mexico to cooperate on securing critical minerals used in various industries. 0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:47.440 So they have committed to creating price floors. What kind 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:49.640 of price floor is needed for antimony? What would be 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.239 the ballpark the price that kind of would shield you 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:54.760 from China oversaturating the market. 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:57.520 I think something in the twenty dollars per pound range 0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:01.080 would be a great price floor. Different Texas. You got 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:05.000 to understand, China has one hundred year plant. We've been 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:08.520 sitting behind the eight ball for twenty five years watching 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.960 China go all over the world, take over countries, take 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:15.680 over minds, and they drove the antimony price down to 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:18.800 such a level it drove everybody out of business. And 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.960 fortunately our company stayed alive, only one that did stay alive. Yeah, 0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:26.800 and now we're reaping the benefit of having these refineries 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:27.479 up and running. 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:31.160 Hey, Paul, you have lived all over the world. You've 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:33.920 done this all over the world. We're a big part 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.560 of the conversation is the US reliance on China. Yeah, 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:38.920 and I'm just curious what you're seeing because the US 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:41.280 and China still haven't reached an agreement when it comes 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.240 to export control licenses for rare earths and permanent magnets 0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:50.800 are are is any export any antimony being exported from 0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:54.640 China to US consumers that's not military related and carry 0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:55.760 Feel free to jump in here too. 0:32:55.920 --> 0:32:56.120 Yeah. 0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:58.520 I mean I could probably answer this pretty well because 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:03.840 we monitored daily. China cut off all antimony exports in 0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:06.200 every country in the world, including the United States in 0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:09.400 September twenty four. People think, oh, it's got to do 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:13.680 with Trump's tariffs. This was during the Biden administration. This happened, Well, 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:16.280 guess what China's biggest mind called the tweakle star of 0:33:16.280 --> 0:33:20.680 mind in China depleted last June of twenty four. So September, 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:24.320 three months later, they stopped all exports. Now are we 0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:27.920 seeing antimony dripping into the market in the black market? 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:32.840 Probably some coming from Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, but China has 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:37.560 actually arrested twenty some odd people. They don't want antimony 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:41.160 going to the free world. Why we all needed in military, 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:44.360 you can't fire a bullet without antimony, Laser guided missiles, 0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:47.800 night vision cameras, not vision, binoculars. I mean, it's in 0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:51.600 everything you can imagine in the military. And so our 0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:56.400 administration fortunately has taken the lead and saying we've got 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.000 to fix the critical mental problem. 0:33:58.000 --> 0:33:59.960 And it is fixable, but it's gonna take some time, 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:01.240 and it's going to take a lot of money. 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.360 And the one thing that I heard coming out of 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:05.640 the White House, Tim was very clear one of the 0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:08.280 messages I was talking about as well, we need fifty 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.280 million pounds and we're going to be able to help 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:12.960 make that solution. But it was very clear to me 0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:14.920 leaving the White House that we have to also think 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:17.160 about our allies. And honestly, I never thought about as 0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:18.439 the CEO of America's Golden Silver. 0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:19.399 I thought, but go. 0:34:19.320 --> 0:34:21.080 There because there's so much conflict. 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:23.120 It feels like even with the US and it's traditional 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.399 allies that have been there for a long time, you're 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:28.359 saying we can't do that. We've got to be cooperating. 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:31.600 You're absolutely right, Carol. Look it was very crystal clear, 0:34:31.600 --> 0:34:33.560 and it was made very clear to me. Change your pitch, 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:36.200 even as the CEO of America's gold and Silver. Change 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:38.600 your story, because you don't just need fifty million pounds 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:41.040 for the US, you need another eighty percent on top 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:43.160 of that for our allies who we have to make 0:34:43.200 --> 0:34:46.960 sure in NATO that we protect along the way, which honestly, 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.279 for me, I didn't understand that completely, and don't I 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:51.479 think a lot of people don't understand it. Never mind, 0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:54.960 the fifty million pounds we consume per year, our allies 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:57.719 is another forty million pounds, so we've got a deficit here. 0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:01.080 China's been so far ahead, Like Gary says, we're starting 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.640 to help this situation significantly by this JV. 0:35:04.600 --> 0:35:06.040 Which goes back to national security. 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:07.880 Can't just think about your own backyard, You've got to 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:10.600 think about your allies as well. Gentlemen, Please stay in touch, 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:13.640 let us know how things are going. Gary Evans, CEO 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:17.120 of US Antimony Corporation. Paul Andre Hewitt, he is CEO 0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:19.640 of America's Golden Silver Corporation. You are listening and watching 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:21.200 Bloomberg Business Week Daily. 0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:29.239 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch 0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:32.560 us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:36.560 Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:39.520 or watch us live on YouTube plenty. 0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:41.360 Heay in our second hour of the weekend edition of 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:46.000 Bloomberg Business Week, including the media mogul who oversaw MTV 0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:49.839 at its peak. Now reflecting on his life of adventures, 0:35:49.880 --> 0:35:52.880 from bartending his way across the Americas to building a 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:57.000 TV network in Afghanistan. Tom Freston joins us in Just a. 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.960 Bit plus a wellness treet in Sardinia, Italy, the hot 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:05.440 truth about saunas and getting buzzed with less alcohol. It's 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:08.399 all in the Wellness section of Bloomberg Pursuits. We ask 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:09.560 is it all worth it? 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:10.080 Hey? 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.920 First up this hour, homeowners are feeling the squeeze, and 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:16.360 so is the platform that connects them with home improvement contractors. 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:20.479 Angie, the online portal for home improvement, reported fourth quarter 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:24.239 earnings this past week that missed analyst expectations. Revenue fell 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:27.040 ten percent to roughly two hundred and forty one million dollars. 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:30.040 The company expects another decline during the current quarter. That 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:33.000 also sent shares plunging over twenty percent on Wednesday following 0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:33.520 that report. 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:37.560 Even so, Angie CEO Jeff Kip expects positive revenue growth 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.720 this year, especially as he sees millennial spending an average 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:44.520 of fourteen thousand dollars per household on home improvement projects. 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:46.920 Jeff joined us to talk about the quarter, the outlook, 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:49.240 and how his company is using AI. 0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:53.480 Our numbers were actually in line with our guidance in 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:57.799 revenue and above our guidance, and EBITDA the analysts set 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:01.160 their own numbers, and so that's I think where the disconnects. 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:06.480 Our stock's very sensitive to that small cap and I 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:07.480 think that's what's striving. 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:09.600 And I think they're also looking at our forward outlook 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.520 and seeing it's not as strong as maybe they'd hoped 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:17.360 given our riff. The EBITDAH estimates moved up post riff 0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:21.799 without any new guidance, and we previously had a number 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:23.839 of around one hundred and fifty. I think the thing 0:37:23.880 --> 0:37:26.920 that's important to note is that our cappax estimate is 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.200 lower than what we gave on the last call, so 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.080 we're actually a little bit improved overall. But I think 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:34.400 that's the kind of sum on why people are looking 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:35.440 at it unhappily. 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:40.200 Jeff. Service request decreasing four percent, leads decreasing nine percent 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:43.000 year over year in the fourth quarter of the year. 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:47.359 Proprietary service requests, though increasing fifteen percent year over year. 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:51.280 Proprietary leads increase twenty five percent year over year. Explain 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:54.960 the difference between those two metrics and why you saw 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:56.840 service requests and leads decreasing. 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:01.640 So fundamentally, our network business is third party affiliates who 0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:05.640 bring homeowners through a not our experience and match to 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:09.280 our pros at the end of their experience. The proprietary 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:12.560 experience means that homeowners come through an experience we can control. 0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:15.440 Okay, so I just want to do Yeah, sorry, I 0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:17.160 just want to jump in. So that basically would be 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:20.840 like googling a home services provider and getting to Angie 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.520 through through that, or getting to a home services professional 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:27.120 through that, versus going to Angie's website and booking through that. 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:29.120 Is that the difference is that the distinction It. 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:33.399 Would mean either going to a affiliate who's site who 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:36.600 tells homeowners they can find pros for them, either through 0:38:36.640 --> 0:38:40.239 Google or direct and the homeowner getting connected to our 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:43.040 pros because the affiliate does not have pros. 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:48.800 Okay okay, is this typically search based. 0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:53.040 Typically they get to both of us through search more 0:38:53.040 --> 0:38:55.960 than through other kitles, although Angie has a stronger brand, 0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:59.920 so we have a lot more direct traffic. The fundamental 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.840 change is that we used to have a much higher proportion. 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:04.759 If you look at this, we're going to have given 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:06.960 up over two hundred and fifty million of revenue from 0:39:07.040 --> 0:39:10.760 these network partners year over year. We made a switch 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:12.960 at the beginning of the year, which is we no 0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:16.799 longer auto match homeowners to pros. Their only match when 0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:20.400 the homeowner affirmatively chooses the pro. So that's the experience 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:23.200 we believe is right. When we did this, it xed 0:39:23.239 --> 0:39:26.120 out a lot of those network partners as traffic. So 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.200 we made a conscious decision to bring down the network 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:32.200 channel and invest in what we believe is a much 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:36.120 better experience through our proprietary channels. So what you're looking 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:39.319 at is really strong growth in our proprietary business and 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:42.439 expected coming down in the network business. And our whole 0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:44.400 discussion was at the very beginning of the year, we 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:47.400 guided to minus twelve to minus sixteen. We came in 0:39:47.440 --> 0:39:49.799 at minus thirteen. We said we were going to grow 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:51.880 in twenty twenty six. We still believe we're going to 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:54.480 grow in twenty twenty six as we inflect off of 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:57.239 this big cut we took in the network traffic. We're 0:39:57.280 --> 0:39:59.920 actually feeling pretty positive about it because if you look 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.960 at our homeowner NPS, it's up over thirty percent over 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:05.520 the last couple of years. Our pro churn is down 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:08.440 thirty percent over the last couple of years, and we 0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:10.640 see real success within the ecosystem. 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:14.080 We're speaking with Jeff kip CEO of Angie, joining us 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:21.000 from Indianapolis this afternoon. So a AI, if people are 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:23.160 getting to you know, for years it's all been all 0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:26.680 about search engine optimization and connecting people who are, you know, 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.880 googling or searching for something. What if you're using like, 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:34.360 you know, our colleague Matt Miller's boiler is on the fritz, 0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:37.680 his wife is like using chat GPT to try to 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:40.759 to try to fix it and then ultimately in some 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:44.000 era that could connect her to some sort of home services. 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:49.400 Pro right, So we are actively working with multiple LLM providers. 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:52.839 We just announced a deal with Amazon's Alexa several weeks ago. 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:55.800 We have an app submitted to another major player. 0:40:55.880 --> 0:40:58.359 We're working with a third major player to integrate, and 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:01.759 we have other talks going on. So we're actually excited 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:04.799 about the presence of llms who haven't fully developed their 0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:08.600 ad product or their ecosystem because they will actually diversify 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:12.160 our channels. We're heavily dependent on Google right now, so 0:41:12.239 --> 0:41:14.719 having more players where homeowners. 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:16.439 Go to do search and discovery is good for us. 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:19.600 And we've built the technology to offer our pros on 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:23.000 those sites or pick up the conversation from the LLM 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:26.719 if that seems better. So we like this and we 0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:27.759 think this will help us. 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:29.319 You know, I want to go back to what you 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:31.239 said in terms of I guess, you know, trying to 0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:34.719 improve the customer experience, and I'm just looking at some 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:37.120 other metrics here that you guys said. I think in 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:41.839 your release that you acquired professionals. You acquired professionals FEIL 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.399 twenty seven percent to twenty thousand in the quarter, while 0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:47.400 average monthly active pros fell twenty three percent to one 0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:50.319 hundred and eleven thousand. It sounds to me just like 0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:53.440 in terms of the matching, you're letting the customer decide 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:59.200 that this is about maybe weeding out, reading out some 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:01.799 professionals that maybe weren't up to snuff. Is that what's 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:04.880 going on? Like you're trying to I'm trying to understand 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:05.359 a little bit. 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:08.200 So there's two factors involved. 0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:11.600 One is we did actually go through and remove all 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:14.200 of the pros below three and a half stars, okay 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:15.399 last year. 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:16.040 I think. 0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:20.839 Secondly, we were actually highly scaled in our salesforce and 0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:25.399 acquiring somewhat unprofitability, unprofitably for multiple years, and so we're 0:42:25.440 --> 0:42:29.720 comparing to a base of pros that was acquired somewhat unprofitably, 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.680 and we've really reduced If you looked across our releases, 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:36.520 what you'd see is we've almost doubled the value creation 0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:40.640 through our salesforce while reducing the number. And so what 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:46.880 you're seeing is basically comparisons to classes who probably shouldn't 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:49.279 have been acquired. And then we have trimmed it some 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:49.799 as well. 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:52.480 All right, makes sense? Makes sense? All right? 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:55.920 So the outlook, how do you describe it? My understanding is, 0:42:55.960 --> 0:42:59.040 you know, you guys are looking to return to growth 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.840 I think in terms of revenue correct, yes, going forward? 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:05.399 So do you get that based on everything that you've 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:07.640 done so far. There are other initiatives that you want 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:08.360 to put into place. 0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:11.120 So I think there's two or three things. One is 0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:14.279 you'll note in the release said January stabilized. Yeah, so 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.319 we're stable in January. We're being a little more conservative 0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:20.160 and saying minus one to three, minus one to minus 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:22.480 three in the first quarter, and then we think we 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:24.880 will be flatish in the second quarter and grow in 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:26.600 the second half of the year. The biggest thing that 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:29.080 needs to happen is we need to finish getting through 0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:33.040 this network traffic coming down so that we actually have 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:35.719 a compare where we no longer have that in there, 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:37.520 and we get to the second half of the year 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:40.360 where that's flattened out and we're growing. So it's a 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:43.279 little bit optical and it's a little bit strategic what 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:45.680 we did with our traffic, and I think people had 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.319 hoped we talked about growing in the first quarter, we're 0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:50.840 now not going to do it. Yeah, our product roadmap 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:53.360 got a little disrupted by the reduction in force, but 0:43:53.680 --> 0:43:55.880 we're still on track with where we were planning to be. 0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:59.440 Jeff, I just want to as Carol mentioned, we're gonna 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:01.440 you know, we're looking at the economy from a lot 0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:03.440 of different angles right now. And one way we can 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.960 do that is by understanding what people are spending on 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:09.840 in terms of their homes. Is it discretionary or is 0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:11.359 it like a leaky roof and they got to get 0:44:11.360 --> 0:44:13.799 it fixed. So what can you tell us about what 0:44:13.840 --> 0:44:15.320 you're seeing across the Engie network? 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:17.760 So two or three things. 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:20.239 I'll just start by saying, we don't see much of 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:24.120 a shift between discretionary and nondiscretionary. We're more two thirds 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:27.120 more than two thirds non discretionary, and we don't really 0:44:27.120 --> 0:44:30.120 see that move a lot, even at different times where 0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:34.560 there's higher economic inflection like April SA this year. What 0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:37.000 we have seen over the last couple of months is 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:40.160 a bit of a mixed down in job size and 0:44:40.239 --> 0:44:42.560 so then revenue per job for us. 0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:43.960 So we do see that. 0:44:45.000 --> 0:44:47.640 We can tell you that last year, we've talked about 0:44:47.640 --> 0:44:50.120 this before, we saw a big disruption in April May. 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:52.040 We saw things sort of get back to normal in 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:53.880 the second half of the year, and I think in 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:56.960 December there was some compression. And if you go out 0:44:56.960 --> 0:44:59.840 and you look at consumer confidence statistics, like the University 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:04.080 Michigan which does it monthly, consumer confidence was down almost 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:06.520 thirty percent year over year in November December, and I 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.120 think the earlier read was down twenty in January. So 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:13.480 we do see some signs that there's some shifts. Nothing major, 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:17.440 nothing scary, but we do see some shifts in homeowner behavior. 0:45:18.719 --> 0:45:19.440 That's interesting. 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:22.600 I have a crazy question, Oh, are these folks who 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:25.000 do work thinking about like buy now, pay later? 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.799 I mean, can they do they do things on installments? 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:29.400 Is that part of the process. 0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:29.960 Definitely? 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:35.359 Yeah, definitely, particularly our larger, more sophisticated pros really think 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.319 about their financing packages and how they sell them. 0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:40.800 So that's definitely an element for a lot of pros. 0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:43.160 Is there an uptick in that in terms of people 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.600 like accessing that and able to do to get projects done? 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:51.399 Talking when I talk to our pros, I think they 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.880 find that they can close the job and get the 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:55.200 job done easier with it. 0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:56.720 I don't know about volume. 0:45:56.760 --> 0:45:57.200 We don't. 0:45:57.560 --> 0:46:01.040 We don't sell that or offer that on our platform directly. 0:46:01.160 --> 0:46:03.560 Jeff just got about thirty seconds left here. Are there 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:07.319 enough professionals of this kind to do projects? Because we 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:10.880 constantly talk about shortages when it's contractors, electricians and the like. 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:15.920 So it's been a long term secular trend of pressure 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:19.520 on particularly the skilled trades, we continue to see it. 0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:22.839 We talk to and partner with major distributors who talk 0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:26.480 about the central fact in their businesses. You're losing more 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:29.520 businesses and more skilled professionals than you're adding every year. 0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:32.040 So I think the long term trend is still against it. 0:46:32.120 --> 0:46:32.319 Now. 0:46:32.600 --> 0:46:34.960 Yeah, some people are starting to go into it. My 0:46:35.080 --> 0:46:37.400 son got out of college and went into construction. So 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:39.080 here we go, kids, Let's go. 0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:43.279 Hey, listen, Always appreciate you stopping by Jeff Bewill, Jeff Kip, 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:46.120 CEO of Angie, joining us. 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:50.759 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:53.759 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:56.799 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 0:46:56.840 --> 0:47:00.000 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:03.680 New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:47:04.440 --> 0:47:06.840 It is the media story that keeps on giving, and 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:10.080 this past week, activist investor and Cora Holdings revealed a 0:47:10.120 --> 0:47:13.279 two hundred million dollar steak in Warner Brothers Discovery and 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:16.360 urged the board of the company to reject Netflix's offer 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:20.560 and reconsider paramount Sky Dance's competing bid, adding a new 0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:23.600 plot twist to one of Hollywood's biggest takeover battles. That 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:26.480 story still developing as we put our show to bed. 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:29.120 The latest on the pursuit of Warner Brothers coming out 0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:31.720 after We caught up with someone who really knows the industry, 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:34.880 having served as CEO of Viacom and head of Paramount 0:47:34.920 --> 0:47:37.719 Pictures through its heyday in the nineties. He's got to 0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:40.880 tell all the book all about his adventures, from hitchhiking 0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:45.200 through a pre Taliban Afghanistan, using a drug smuggler to 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:49.040 get closed from Asia to New York City tariff free, 0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:52.120 to almost getting kidnapped in the Sahara desert with Jimmy Buffett, 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:56.360 to getting unceremoniously canned by Sumner Redstone, Tom Frest and Carol. 0:47:57.080 --> 0:47:58.400 He has seen a lot. 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.800 Yeah, he certainly ass He's co founder of MTV, a 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:03.400 co founder and the former CEO of Viacom. He's also 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.719 principal of the consulting and investment firm Firefly three, and 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:08.520 the author of a new book which we want to 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:11.560 talk to him about. It is entitled Unplugged Adventures from 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:15.040 MTV to Tim Buckt. It came out back in November. 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:17.239 He joins us from California. Tom's so great to have 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:18.040 you here with us. 0:48:18.040 --> 0:48:18.520 How are you. 0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:21.400 I'm good, Carol, Hello to you and I Tim. 0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:22.479 I have to be here. 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:24.480 It's great to have you here. And there's so much 0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:25.480 we want to talk about. 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:27.600 We do want to just start off with the media 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:29.880 industry because it just feels like it's at a moment 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:30.239 in time. 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:31.640 So I thought you were going to start with Beavis 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:33.480 in No, I'm not. 0:48:33.600 --> 0:48:35.840 But we'll get there. We'll get there into so much more. 0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:39.200 I'm just thinking about what you witnessed, you know, at 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.440 the beginning, the dawn of really the cable industry and 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:45.320 the build out of it. It's now being very much dismantled, 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:48.440 dismantled for our host of reasons, some networks being sold 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:50.839 for scraps, you know, the headlines. How do you see 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:53.240 this dismantling, Tom continue to play out? 0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:58.160 Well, I mean we had during my era, the eighties 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:01.200 and the nineties, so the early two thousands, sort of 0:49:01.200 --> 0:49:05.280 the cable TV revolution, which morphed into the digital revolution 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.960 and streaming and all that, where people really got to 0:49:10.000 --> 0:49:12.920 watch whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted on whatever device, 0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:16.080 and now we're moving into the AI revolution. So the 0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:19.160 media industry is in a constant state of flux, always 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.760 sort of you know, you know, influenced greatly by technology, 0:49:23.120 --> 0:49:26.440 and you know, it's hard to say where it's going 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.040 to go, but we're gonna see more consolidation amongst the 0:49:29.120 --> 0:49:32.200 legacy media companies, that's for sure. There's a few deals 0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:33.440 in place right now, as you know. 0:49:33.880 --> 0:49:37.560 Yeah, well, speaking of those deals, the fate of Warner 0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:41.840 Brothers Discovery David Zaslov mentioned in your book a few times. 0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:45.479 Do you have a view on whether that company should 0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:47.800 go to Netflix or Paramounts Guidance. 0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:50.719 I think it's a better fit, and you know, you 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.400 hate to see another movie studios sort of disappear in 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:55.960 a form of consolidation, and Warner Brothers is like the 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:58.960 king of you know, the most treasured studio of all. 0:49:59.040 --> 0:50:02.000 But of the two alternatives, I think the Netflix one 0:50:02.040 --> 0:50:05.799 is more interesting and Bod's better for people in the 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:09.120 business and boats better for consumers. In the case of 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:13.760 a Paramount you really have two legacy companies merging together. 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:17.080 They talk about nine billion dollars worth of cost savings, 0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:19.799 and that means more people on the Street. It's not 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:23.200 that interesting of a combination as taking someone like Netflix, 0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:26.080 which is a sort of a quasi digital company, and 0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:31.160 marrying that with Warner Brothers seems to be seems to 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:32.960 be a better fit if you were to ask me, 0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:35.920 which you just did, what. 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:38.839 About you know, and a lot of your book goes 0:50:38.880 --> 0:50:40.600 into your relationship with some of the Redstone. We're going 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:44.520 to get to some of that in a minute. What 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.759 do you think he would think about today with what's 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:49.319 going on at Paramounts guide Ence. You describe him as 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:52.640 being just so obsessed with the company stock price and 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:56.960 always trying to buy more shares. You describe him as 0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:59.000 always being on the phone with his stockbrooker at the time, 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:02.040 because that's how it worked at the time. What do 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:03.880 you think he would think of of what's happening at 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:04.800 Paramounts Guidance. 0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:07.600 Well, I think he'd be sad. He'd be sad to 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:11.880 see what became of his the empire that he, you know, 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:15.600 was a major force in creating, and how the values deteriorated, 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:18.440 and how how Viacom sort of missed the moment, if 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:22.480 you will, they missed a moment in the digital transition. 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:26.120 You just compare it to Disney, which spent say they 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:29.640 doubled down on their content creative abilities. They spent sixteen 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:34.200 billion dollars buying Pixar and Lucasfilm and Marble, which made 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.120 them a little more invincible. On the other hand, Viacom 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:40.600 spent sixteen billion dollars on stock buybacks, which you know 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:43.640 was great if you were casting in stock options, but 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:47.320 not so good for the long term viability of the company. 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:50.440 Hey, you know on that, you know, I think about MTV. 0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:54.080 You know, you were one of the people who got this, 0:51:54.200 --> 0:51:56.239 you know, up and running and for such a long 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:58.359 time it was just so much a part of our 0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:02.160 kind of cultural fabric, and then went from music to 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:06.160 you know, dealing with political issues and really the issues 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.000 of our time, if you will, and became an important 0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:11.759 place for even politicians to show up at during campaigns. 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:15.040 Having said that, you know, it is you know, reduced 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:18.680 drastically and dramatically. I don't know what is it like 0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:21.320 to see that, And I wonder, if you know today, 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.120 could it be created today or could it be in 0:52:24.120 --> 0:52:24.920 some other form? 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:28.279 Well, you know, it's sort of like looking back and 0:52:28.280 --> 0:52:32.399 seeing your old high school on fire. Yeah, it's they 0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:36.640 haven't really put any money or effort into MTV for 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:39.480 I don't know, fifteen years or so. I think all 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.399 the music people who were there left. They even saw 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:47.040 the music television off the bottom of the logo, and 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:50.800 it became sort of a repository for grade B reality shows, 0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:55.720 well off its original mission. I do think that MTV 0:52:55.840 --> 0:53:00.120 could be reinvented in a digital format to be a 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:03.359 more interesting curator of music. These days, music is still 0:53:03.400 --> 0:53:06.440 a huge category and there's a huge amount of listening 0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:10.480 going on, so it's crazy not to think that MTV 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:14.400 couldn't recapture some corner of the music business. I mean, 0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:16.799 on one hand, you have a lot of consumers. You're 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:21.160 sort of tired of the algorithmally programmed streaming services and 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:26.040 so forth. So I mean, I don't think it's a layup, 0:53:26.600 --> 0:53:29.799 but it's certainly worth it. It's a brand with worldwide recognition, 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:32.359 and I do know that they're working on that at 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:35.560 Paramount with Jeff Shell and David Ellison. 0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:37.520 Well, well, you know, Tom, I think about you know 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:39.400 your book in this journey, right, and then you know 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:42.120 the create so many journeys if you will, which is 0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:45.800 really fun to go through. But I'm wondering a thirty 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:48.800 five year old Tom Freston today, would you create MTV 0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:52.200 or something against the platforms that we have, or would 0:53:52.200 --> 0:53:54.920 you do something different when it comes to media and content. 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:58.880 That's a good question. You know, the media world is 0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.799 so different right now. I mean my default is sort 0:54:02.840 --> 0:54:07.240 of media and entertainment, so I'd be interested. It's harder 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:09.840 to carve out of harder to carve out a place 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:12.560 right now. I mean, I think the closer you get 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.759 the talent and content creation, the better off you would be. 0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:18.440 The days of the mono culture where you had. The 0:54:18.560 --> 0:54:23.319 rise of MTV is a really important gatekeeper. Those are gone, 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:26.160 So I'm in the lucky position. I'm not having to 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:31.239 worry about working in the business right now. In that 0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:34.560 particular business, I find it more interesting, sort of on 0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:36.040 the fringes for myself. 0:54:37.000 --> 0:54:40.839 We're speaking with Tom Freston. He's the author of Unplugged 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:44.279 Adventures from MTV to Tim Buck two. He's a co 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:47.839 founder of MTV. Tom on that I was surprised when 0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:51.719 I was reading the books, as like an elder millennial, 0:54:51.800 --> 0:54:54.960 I grew up with MTV, so it totally everything you 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:57.160 wrote about made a lot of sense I remember all 0:54:57.160 --> 0:55:00.399 the shows that launched on MTV and on Comedy Central two. 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:03.600 You mentioned, though a few minutes ago, this kind of 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:07.160 common refrain that we had about MTV even in the nineties, 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:10.680 which is it doesn't show music videos anymore. What I 0:55:10.680 --> 0:55:12.920 was surprised to find was how strategic of a decision 0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:15.520 and how important of a decision that was, and what 0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:19.160 she found sort of early on in showing music one 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:22.799 music video after another, and why that didn't necessarily keep 0:55:22.920 --> 0:55:26.560 viewers for extended periods of time. Explain how that transformation 0:55:26.640 --> 0:55:29.200 started and why it did become a place that wasn't 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:30.720 just music videos. 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:33.799 Well, when music videos sort of hit, I mean they 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:36.680 were really kind of revolutionary. People hadn't really seen anything 0:55:36.760 --> 0:55:39.560 like that six or seven years in. I mean, a 0:55:39.640 --> 0:55:41.600 bloom was a little off the rose. That's not to 0:55:41.640 --> 0:55:44.080 say that the music videos weren't good, but a new 0:55:44.120 --> 0:55:47.360 device had come along technology wise, called the remote control, 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:50.800 which was maybe the biggest disruptor of all that little 0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:55.160 soap bar sized device, and people would check out after 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:59.000 three minutes or so if they didn't like the next 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:02.520 video that was coming on. We thought, though that we 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:05.359 still we wanted to stay close to music. It brought 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:08.080 us so much. But we thought maybe we could be 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:10.759 a bigger place, in a more reliable place, and less 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:14.360 reliant to the peaks and valleys of the music industry 0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:17.520 if we created our own programming that was about some 0:56:17.640 --> 0:56:20.360 of the things that the music was about about. You know, 0:56:20.440 --> 0:56:26.279 I'm talking about fashion and movies and you know, beef 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:28.719 beefing up our news area. We thought we could take say, 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:31.560 ten percent of our one hundred and sixty eight hours 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:35.400 a week and devoted to non music programming or stuff 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:37.560 that related to the popular culture, and we could have 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.160 a sounder and a bigger business. And that turned out 0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:43.359 to be the case. Now, the problem was that these 0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.880 shows would get higher ratings than music hours. So gradually 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:49.680 over time, and like I'm talking now the last ten 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:52.480 or fifteen years, there was a decision to just get 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.439 out of the music business entirely because the idea that 0:56:56.960 --> 0:56:59.440 you know, you could compete with something like Vivo and 0:56:59.520 --> 0:57:02.640 YouTube Tube where people could get any video they wanted 0:57:02.719 --> 0:57:05.440 on demand on the internet once the Internet was capable 0:57:05.440 --> 0:57:08.879 of really streaming video in full force, was you know, 0:57:09.360 --> 0:57:13.799 it was an unattractive proposition. So you ended up with 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:15.759 what you have today, which is a network be rift 0:57:15.800 --> 0:57:21.120 of music whose name used to be music television. That's 0:57:21.160 --> 0:57:24.560 not to say that, as I said earlier, that it 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:28.000 couldn't be reimagined for digital in a way that they 0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:30.720 could make a business out of it using a digital 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:34.280 on demand technology. So it was a strategic move to 0:57:34.280 --> 0:57:36.960 get into non music programming. And I would also say 0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:40.040 that the creative cadre that we had at work always 0:57:40.040 --> 0:57:42.040 wanted to stretch out and do new things. So we 0:57:42.080 --> 0:57:44.240 came up with new formats like the Real World, or 0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:47.200 we would find young animators and bring them into the 0:57:47.200 --> 0:57:49.680 fold and do shows like Beavis and Butthead that we 0:57:49.720 --> 0:57:53.520 thought had their same attitude as MTV. But it wasn't 0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:56.880 necessarily music, you know, made of the bigger plays. 0:57:57.080 --> 0:58:00.320 We think about, I mean, how much of TV today 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:03.320 is reality TV? And I put quotation marks around it, 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:06.920 and you know Real World you write about it in 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:09.200 the book. I mean, you guys were a pioneer when 0:58:09.200 --> 0:58:13.560 it comes to reality television, which so dominates the landscape. 0:58:13.600 --> 0:58:16.880 Tom and I think about The Apprentice, and we think 0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:20.560 about how many have said what it did for Donald Trump, 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:23.440 who at the time was not actually doing well in business, 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:27.760 and the image it actually projected, not my view, but 0:58:27.800 --> 0:58:30.320 what a lot of other people say. And I just think, 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:33.160 how do you think about Real World, the beginning of 0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:34.000 reality TV? 0:58:34.440 --> 0:58:36.600 And do you feel in some way. 0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:39.800 Responsible for the creation of what that is today and 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:42.760 helping create a path for Donald Trump? 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:44.080 Like, how do you think of it? 0:58:44.520 --> 0:58:48.160 I know the question. I know that question. Look, we started, 0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:51.240 you know, we started the Real World because we couldn't 0:58:51.240 --> 0:58:53.880 afford writers. We just wanted to do a soap opera. 0:58:54.240 --> 0:58:56.520 So in the end we said, forget writers. We were 0:58:56.520 --> 0:58:59.320 good at post production. Let's put seven or eight people 0:58:59.320 --> 0:59:01.280 in a law oft and tape them and then make 0:59:01.320 --> 0:59:05.200 it into episodes. That became this new low cost form 0:59:05.240 --> 0:59:08.800 of programming. And then we did Celebrity Reality Show with 0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:12.120 the Osborns. O were the first two real reality shows, 0:59:12.200 --> 0:59:14.880 and it was very attractive to the networks as their 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:18.320 business model began to deteriorate. They could make shows that 0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:21.640 people wanted to see at a much lower price. And yes, 0:59:21.720 --> 0:59:25.400 it led to like Naked and Afraid, The Bachelor, and 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:27.680 worst of all, or maybe best of all in some 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:31.480 people's mind, The Apprentice. It brought us the new President 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:35.680 of the United States. So I don't feel responsible necessarily 0:59:36.400 --> 0:59:40.040 for that. But there is a through line that when 0:59:40.120 --> 0:59:43.440 television programming became less scripted and more real. 0:59:44.320 --> 0:59:46.000 You know, And it's funny I think about. You know, 0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:48.240 we've got a world where everyone can be a content creator, 0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:50.800 and we have a man in the White House, our president, 0:59:50.840 --> 0:59:54.320 who's very good at creating content for better or worse, 0:59:55.080 --> 0:59:58.200 people can make the debate, is it free speech at 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:01.360 its fullest when you think about the ability for anybody 1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:04.880 and everybody with their phone that can make content or 1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:07.720 is it kind of a reveal of mankind at its worst. 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:09.560 I'm just curious how you think about this. 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.000 Well, it's a reveal of mankind at it's best and 1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:17.000 its worst. I mean, it's true. Everybody is their own 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:21.960 like individual broadcaster. They can create content, share it, comment 1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:25.360 on other people's content, people comment on yours. I mean, 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:29.160 that's really been the social media revolution. It's really been 1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:34.240 a whole new paradigm for media. And yeah, it can 1:00:34.280 --> 1:00:36.680 be very disappointing at times to see what people do 1:00:36.760 --> 1:00:39.840 and come up with and what they say. And you know, 1:00:39.880 --> 1:00:43.440 that's a much larger issue owing to a larger discussion 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:47.040 for which I don't know there's a solution but yes, 1:00:47.240 --> 1:00:50.720 all the guardrails and program standards and things that we 1:00:50.880 --> 1:00:53.760 used to enjoy and adhere to in the eighties and nineties, 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:54.720 they've all vanished. 1:00:55.920 --> 1:00:59.720 Tom. You know, you're known for a creator as at MTV, 1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:02.080 But I do want to talk a little bit about 1:01:02.080 --> 1:01:05.200 Comedy Central too. I was struck with sort of the 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:08.160 creative process of coming up with this idea for Comedy Central, 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:13.800 the potential competition that you were going to get from 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:17.880 HBO at a certain point, and the staying power of 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:20.520 some of the programs on there, including The Daily Show, 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:24.240 the Colbert Rapport, and notably South Park. Today, I mean 1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:28.200 the idea that a South Park could be as relevant 1:01:28.480 --> 1:01:31.000 in some you know, in some cases in twenty twenty five, 1:01:31.040 --> 1:01:33.520 twenty twenty six as it was in the mid nineties. 1:01:33.560 --> 1:01:35.560 I think could be surprising to a lot of people. 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:38.640 Talk a little bit about how, you know, within ten 1:01:38.680 --> 1:01:40.920 minutes you guys came up with this idea for Comedy Central, 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:42.840 and how you landed Trey Parker and Matt Stone. 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.080 Well, I was having a staff meeting I was in 1:01:47.080 --> 1:01:49.120 the early nineties, and someone slipped me a piece of 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:52.120 papers at HBO's announcing they're going to have a comedy channel, 1:01:52.400 --> 1:01:54.400 and they were at the time the big players. I 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:57.640 mean they were on PayTV. They had Robin Williams and 1:01:57.720 --> 1:02:01.120 George Carlin, they did all these big common specialists. Oh, 1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:03.960 they're getting into our business, and that they're going to 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:06.160 start with a comedy channel. They'll do a music channel 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:09.480 and a kids channel, kind of eroding our Nickelodeon an 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:12.640 MTV business. So we decided in that meeting, like, let's 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:15.080 announce our own comedy channel. We didn't really have a 1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:18.200 comedy channel or even an idea for one, but we 1:02:18.320 --> 1:02:21.640 thought we announced we could be in every news article 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:25.800 that was ever written about theirs, and you know, so 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:28.480 we kind of announced that we were doing one. We 1:02:28.520 --> 1:02:30.560 came up with a format quickly, which was sort of 1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:34.440 TV comedy and extension what our Nicked Night brand was, 1:02:34.640 --> 1:02:37.920 and so that was how we got into the business. 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:40.080 We had a war with HBO for a couple of 1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:43.040 years and then we ended up merging and forming Comedy Central. 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:47.760 And the thing that really pushed Comedy Central into public 1:02:47.800 --> 1:02:51.600 consciousness was South Park. And south Park was a cartoon 1:02:51.680 --> 1:02:54.080 that started as a one of the guys at MTV 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:56.800 found Matt and Trey and had him do a little 1:02:57.120 --> 1:03:00.280 six minute thing for as a Christmas card he sent 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:04.440 out to his friends and it got wide acclaim and 1:03:04.480 --> 1:03:05.960 then we saw him. We said, well, let's make a 1:03:05.960 --> 1:03:07.960 TV series out of this, and we've done it and 1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:11.520 now it's like no Christmas card in history has ever 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:13.440 paid off like South Park. I think they're in their 1:03:13.480 --> 1:03:17.280 twenty fifth or twenty sixth season and those guys are geniuses. 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:20.600 The other thing I'd say about Comedy Central is it's 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:23.320 interesting to me we always had a great eye for 1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:25.560 new and emerging talent. And if you look at the 1:03:26.040 --> 1:03:29.720 amount of people who started their television career on Comedy Central, 1:03:30.040 --> 1:03:34.560 Bill Mahrer, Jimmy Kimmel, John Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Samantha b 1:03:34.880 --> 1:03:38.160 Matt and Treye, Dave Chappelle, all of these people, most 1:03:38.200 --> 1:03:41.760 of whom have gone on to bigger lives outside of 1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:45.400 Comedy Central. There's sort of the front line of the 1:03:45.440 --> 1:03:49.360 Trump resistance today, a role that was filled, like in 1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:52.960 the Richard Nixon era, largely by musicians. And you know, 1:03:53.000 --> 1:03:55.360 you have to be really proud to see how you know, 1:03:55.400 --> 1:03:58.000 with our ear to the ground, we were able to 1:03:58.000 --> 1:04:01.920 give all these people their television stars very satisfying. Comedy 1:04:01.920 --> 1:04:05.439 Central had a more cultural cachet than I think any 1:04:05.480 --> 1:04:09.520 of our networks, and outside of Lauren Michaels and Saturday 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:12.439 Night Live, I don't know of any other entity that's 1:04:12.480 --> 1:04:15.360 been able to discover and cultivate as much comedic talent. 1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:18.120 So we already know we want like another sixty minutes 1:04:18.160 --> 1:04:20.240 with you, and I know you've talked with our producer 1:04:20.240 --> 1:04:22.360 and I think you're going to come back and talk 1:04:22.360 --> 1:04:24.800 with us because we would like to continue this conversation. 1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:26.160 Can we barely scratch the surface? 1:04:26.280 --> 1:04:27.760 I mean, I have to say the way the book 1:04:27.800 --> 1:04:30.440 is written, and you talk about your travels all around 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:32.320 the world, and we've been in the newsroom talking about 1:04:32.400 --> 1:04:35.200 like Afghanistan, which I think so many people have one 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:38.240 view of what that is about. And you remind us, 1:04:38.640 --> 1:04:41.600 you know, an incredible land people, and we want to 1:04:41.640 --> 1:04:43.280 get into it because we want to talk soft power 1:04:43.320 --> 1:04:45.440 with you and so much more so I hope we 1:04:45.480 --> 1:04:48.040 can truly get you back here real soon and continue 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:48.720 this conversation. 1:04:49.800 --> 1:04:50.640 Well I'd love to do that. 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:53.600 We'll stay in radio contact, called to come in the studio. 1:04:54.000 --> 1:04:55.280 This has been fun week. 1:04:55.680 --> 1:04:57.520 We really enjoyed it. Tom By We'll have a great weekend. 1:04:57.720 --> 1:04:58.720 He is Tom, Carol. 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:01.880 Thanks to yeah TH's uston the book is Unplugged Adventures 1:05:01.880 --> 1:05:04.920 from MTV to Tim buck to and we are going 1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:07.720 to continue that conversation. It's really been a great read 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:09.560 for us, so we really appreciate Tom's time. 1:05:09.600 --> 1:05:18.320 Today you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch 1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:21.640 us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. 1:05:21.760 --> 1:05:25.680 Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 1:05:25.800 --> 1:05:27.600 or watch us live on YouTube. 1:05:28.600 --> 1:05:31.040 It's time for Bloomberg Pursuits and this week deep dive 1:05:31.080 --> 1:05:34.800 into something we're all chasing, more years, better years. It's 1:05:34.840 --> 1:05:37.080 all about Tim the quest to live a longer life. 1:05:37.080 --> 1:05:38.320 But it's got to be kind of a. 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:40.720 Good one too, and yet what if along the way 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:43.960 we give up pieces of ourselves. It's the cover story 1:05:44.000 --> 1:05:46.760 of Bloomberg Pursuits for the February issue of Bloomberg, a 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:49.680 Business Week magazine, And this one it really spoke to me, Carol. 1:05:49.760 --> 1:05:51.240 Yeah, I know it did, did I think to all 1:05:51.320 --> 1:05:53.920 of us? With us as deputy editor of Bloomberg Pursuits, 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:56.480 he is just an ocean joining us here in studio 1:05:56.560 --> 1:06:00.000 Nicole Torres, Managing editor for Bloomberg Pursuits. She's out there 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:03.720 in Wales, which I'm wondering if she's already like in 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:07.000 the Pursuit of longevity. Guys, it's so great to have 1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:10.000 you here with us. Let me start off Pursuits. The 1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:13.240 Quest to Live Longer Pursuits is so well known for 1:06:13.360 --> 1:06:16.400 its wellness coverage. Justin kick it off with us, tell 1:06:16.480 --> 1:06:18.040 us about how you guys were thinking about it this 1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:18.680 time around. 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:21.360 You know, it's no stranger to anyone. It's a booming industry. 1:06:21.440 --> 1:06:23.160 I mean, so many things can be considered well in 1:06:23.160 --> 1:06:26.080 this yet some estimates put it at over a trillion dollars. 1:06:27.000 --> 1:06:30.280 You know, that includes obviously vacations and but you know, 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:32.600 other things down to what we would call self care, 1:06:32.720 --> 1:06:35.680 like you know, getting her nails done, things like that, massages. 1:06:36.160 --> 1:06:39.680 But we're more interested in the longevity aspects, so living 1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:43.040 longer currently in the US and around the world, the 1:06:43.120 --> 1:06:46.720 idea is to do like biohacking and hackier routines and 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:50.040 focus on technology. And you know, one of the stories 1:06:50.080 --> 1:06:54.040 in this section is about health trackers and and but 1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:57.160 our main story, the one we talk about is blue 1:06:57.240 --> 1:07:01.360 zones and these are areas in the world where historically 1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:04.080 people have been living longer, you know, over one hundred years. 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:06.640 There's a guy, Damn Mute, and her has popularized this. 1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:08.640 People have been talking about these blue zones for a 1:07:08.680 --> 1:07:10.920 long time and you know, it's how you eat, how 1:07:10.960 --> 1:07:14.680 you live, having a community like it's become a real thing. 1:07:15.000 --> 1:07:17.760 Yeah, and so, and there's that tourism around it. I mean, 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:22.000 so we sent a writer, Alice rob to one in Sardinia. 1:07:22.160 --> 1:07:24.600 So she actually came to us with the idea because 1:07:24.640 --> 1:07:27.920 she was just on her computer doing the lonely freelance 1:07:28.000 --> 1:07:30.560 life and an ad popped up for one and she 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:33.000 realized that, you know, when she looked out the window 1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:36.080 her neighbor, that's the first person she had seen kind 1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:36.600 of all day. 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:39.120 Oh my god. Well, that actually gets us to a 1:07:39.160 --> 1:07:42.040 really important part of what wellness is. And Nicole, I 1:07:42.040 --> 1:07:44.040 want to bring you in because here in the US, 1:07:44.560 --> 1:07:46.920 in recent years, so much of the idea of wellness 1:07:46.920 --> 1:07:50.680 has really focused and sort of emanated from this idea 1:07:50.720 --> 1:07:54.360 of the you know bro podcasters like the Andrew Huberman's, 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:57.440 the Joe Rogans, And it's the idea of making sure 1:07:57.480 --> 1:07:59.880 you're getting the creatine and you're jumping into cold Plunge 1:08:00.200 --> 1:08:03.160 and you're talking, you're you know, going into saunas and stuff. 1:08:03.160 --> 1:08:07.240 But what my big takeaway Nicole from this was it 1:08:07.280 --> 1:08:10.080 has so much to do with who you're around and 1:08:10.160 --> 1:08:11.840 the relationships that you have. 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.040 Yeah, completely, I think that was what I found so 1:08:15.120 --> 1:08:18.800 interesting in Alice's peace there. Like, I think that is 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:21.679 true for wellness overall. But when it comes to something 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:25.120 like longevity, it seems there are really two distinct ways 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:26.960 to go about it. And the way we talk about 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:28.960 in the US, the way that is kind of all 1:08:29.000 --> 1:08:32.439 over the airwaves when it comes to like broke culture, 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.160 is to just double down on yourself and to go 1:08:36.240 --> 1:08:40.879 on these really expensive longevity retreats where you're sitting alone 1:08:41.640 --> 1:08:44.880 in a room getting all kinds of medical tests done 1:08:44.880 --> 1:08:47.400 on yourself. You know, you're like looking at the quality 1:08:47.400 --> 1:08:52.080 of various organs. You are just everything is very personalized 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.160 to you, and you're thinking about what supplements to take, 1:08:55.280 --> 1:08:59.080 You're thinking about your exercise routine. Everything is super individualized. 1:08:59.439 --> 1:09:02.800 And Alice wanted to know if Blue Zones really held 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:06.439 up as a place that can speak to and actually 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:09.559 like improve longevity because so much of what we hear 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:15.519 about longevity is this really high tech, very medicalized types 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:19.280 of approaches. And what she found was in these blue zones, 1:09:19.400 --> 1:09:22.639 the focus is not really on living longer, it really 1:09:22.720 --> 1:09:26.240 is on living better. And I think what she discovers 1:09:26.280 --> 1:09:28.439 and what she hears from a lot of her sources, 1:09:28.880 --> 1:09:31.720 is living a good and high quality life where you're 1:09:31.760 --> 1:09:34.360 surrounded by a lot of people and you are social 1:09:34.680 --> 1:09:38.479 and you have connections that often leads to a longer 1:09:38.520 --> 1:09:41.680 life than being totally isolated on your own, even if 1:09:41.720 --> 1:09:44.000 you are focusing on you know how strong all of 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:45.040 your individual cells are. 1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:48.280 And unfortunately, Carol, the demographics here in the United States 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:51.120 are just showing us that increasingly people are sort of 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:54.280 moving inward, and especially elderly people are living alone. 1:09:54.320 --> 1:09:56.800 Listen, I hear about it all the time, having had 1:09:57.920 --> 1:10:02.920 one elderly like making sure that there was activity around him, 1:10:02.960 --> 1:10:05.840 and you know, because it gets much much harder, and 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:08.280 it's I think what's really also said justin, you know 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:11.000 and come on back in is this idea of it 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:14.400 used to be families. I think about several generations in 1:10:14.439 --> 1:10:15.160 a household. 1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:18.280 Now it's almost like a feather in your cap if 1:10:18.320 --> 1:10:21.040 you get a degree and then you move to another 1:10:21.080 --> 1:10:23.799 country to work and you're far away from your your family. 1:10:24.520 --> 1:10:27.519 Yeah, no, that's very true. I mean in certain circles, 1:10:27.600 --> 1:10:30.280 especially among high earners like there, it is a point 1:10:30.280 --> 1:10:33.320 of pride to be mobile and to have a you know, 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:36.679 quote unquote world citizenship versus you know, really setting down 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:39.680 roots in one place. And it's a major problem. And 1:10:39.800 --> 1:10:42.840 you know, especially in the US with older Americans, you know, 1:10:42.880 --> 1:10:45.439 one and four adults older than sixty live on their own. 1:10:46.560 --> 1:10:49.759 About there's a pole from the National there's a national 1:10:49.760 --> 1:10:51.840 poll on healthy aging where more than one in three 1:10:51.880 --> 1:10:58.120 fell isolated. Half of Americans lack fewer than four close friends. 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:00.920 So god, there was there was a statistic about. 1:11:00.920 --> 1:11:03.439 A twenty twenty three survey found that twenty six percent 1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:07.160 of Americans ate every meal alone the previous day, an 1:11:07.200 --> 1:11:09.599 increase of more than fifty percent from two decades ago. 1:11:09.600 --> 1:11:11.000 In twenty twenty three, in the. 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:14.439 UK, twenty percent of households don't even own a dining table. 1:11:14.800 --> 1:11:16.200 I have to like, I don't know how you are too, 1:11:16.240 --> 1:11:17.160 because you've got little. 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:19.080 Kids and you guys, I don't know, but it was 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:21.719 like I grew up like dinner time everybody got together 1:11:21.800 --> 1:11:23.479 like it didn't matter where you were, and we did that, 1:11:23.520 --> 1:11:25.040 I know with our daughter as well. 1:11:25.120 --> 1:11:28.960 Yeah, we're trying to do that. Working until the evening 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:31.960 is challenging when kids want to eat early. But maybe 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:36.640 this is a good segue to meeting people in different environments, 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:39.960 like at a sauna and the rise of sauna, which 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:43.200 is a story in the Bloomberg Pursuit section. Nicole, come 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:46.519 on back in here, because here in the US we're 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:49.880 talking a lot about sauna's bathhouses. It's not just a 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.960 US trend. This is happening in the UK as well, 1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:55.640 but there's like hundreds of years of history of this 1:11:55.680 --> 1:11:56.680 in the Nordic world too. 1:11:56.920 --> 1:11:57.120 Yeah. 1:11:57.160 --> 1:11:59.920 Absolutely, So this piece that we did is all about 1:12:00.040 --> 1:12:03.120 how bath houses are booming primarily in the US and UK, 1:12:03.280 --> 1:12:06.479 and that's notable because in the US and in the 1:12:06.600 --> 1:12:10.240 UK there has not historically been like really strong bathing 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:12.840 cultures like there have been in the rest of the world, 1:12:12.960 --> 1:12:15.080 and so people who are opening all of these saunas 1:12:15.080 --> 1:12:17.120 and bath houses now are really talking about how this 1:12:17.200 --> 1:12:20.360 is a new idea that's thousands of years old. And 1:12:20.560 --> 1:12:22.920 one line in the story that I really loved was 1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:25.960 how in the US and like, I'm America and even 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:28.439 though I live in the UK now, the writer talks 1:12:28.439 --> 1:12:31.599 about how if they're the closest thing to a bathing 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:36.000 culture that America Americans get is the shower. It's not 1:12:36.240 --> 1:12:38.320 like happening a long time in the bath like we 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.240 might do in whales or something. So it was a 1:12:41.280 --> 1:12:45.439 really interesting like cultural comparison, and I think that speaks 1:12:45.479 --> 1:12:48.160 to a lot of readers who are discovering a boom 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:51.840 in new saunas opening in cities like London and in 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:54.559 New York. We talk about dozens that are opening in 1:12:54.640 --> 1:12:57.880 these cities and we kind of look into why, and 1:12:57.920 --> 1:13:01.639 the reasons are really there. There are so many reasons 1:13:01.640 --> 1:13:03.960 for why that we kind of spoke about earlier. But 1:13:04.160 --> 1:13:07.080 I guess the through line here that ties to this 1:13:07.120 --> 1:13:11.240 overall conversation on finding community and trying to tackle loneliness 1:13:11.640 --> 1:13:13.960 is it's really nice to just go to a space, 1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:17.439 a so called third space that's not home and it's 1:13:17.479 --> 1:13:19.760 not work, but it's somewhere where you can go and 1:13:19.920 --> 1:13:22.839 be around other people and you can connect with other people, 1:13:23.240 --> 1:13:25.200 and it's nice to be in one of these places 1:13:25.200 --> 1:13:27.120 where it's not actually that difficult. You don't need to 1:13:27.160 --> 1:13:29.400 worry about making small talk. You can just go into 1:13:29.439 --> 1:13:33.959 a sauna and say it's what I didn't realize. 1:13:34.080 --> 1:13:34.960 And it's become a thing. 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:36.760 I've heard more people in New York talking about it. 1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:38.720 But the people who come in and they do the 1:13:38.760 --> 1:13:41.120 waving of the air, and I'm like, when someone told me, 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:44.120 I'm like, that's not real, but apparently it is right there. 1:13:44.160 --> 1:13:46.280 It's like, I guess essential oils that are getting like. 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:49.519 Spread called off us. And so you sit in a 1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:51.719 sauna for a determ amount of time. They'll play music 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:54.160 and somebody waves using it tell the hot air at you, 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:58.040 and it is actually like makes your head like get buzzy. 1:13:58.040 --> 1:13:58.920 It's kind of wild. 1:13:59.080 --> 1:13:59.640 Say you like it? 1:13:59.680 --> 1:13:59.880 You do? 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:00.320 I get? 1:14:00.560 --> 1:14:02.800 And it adds what we talk about bathing cultures around 1:14:02.800 --> 1:14:05.920 the world. There's often like a spiritual angle that is missing, 1:14:06.080 --> 1:14:08.679 and so far, you know, bath houses in the US 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:11.880 are really leaning into that bro culture about class and 1:14:11.920 --> 1:14:14.040 optimization and you've got to you know, sit in and 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:16.080 do a cold plunge and it's going to raise your 1:14:16.080 --> 1:14:19.560 dopamine and all these various health benefits. Where at the 1:14:19.640 --> 1:14:22.360 end of the day, as Nicole said, it's about being 1:14:22.400 --> 1:14:25.360 around people. You know, when you think of traditional Sounic cultures, 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:28.439 it really is about the intimacy of strangers. And often 1:14:28.520 --> 1:14:31.160 it's like it's not about wearing a swimsuit or optimizing. 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:33.639 It's about just like being amongst fellow people. 1:14:34.200 --> 1:14:36.040 I have to say, one of the most fun things 1:14:36.040 --> 1:14:37.920 I've ever done was in tou loom. And it was 1:14:37.960 --> 1:14:40.160 a sweat lodge and you're in this thing and it's 1:14:40.200 --> 1:14:42.320 small and it's super hot, and they keep throwing things 1:14:42.360 --> 1:14:43.520 on the flame. 1:14:44.400 --> 1:14:45.479 Oh it's rough, it. 1:14:45.360 --> 1:14:48.080 Was, but it was incredible. It was it was really 1:14:48.120 --> 1:14:48.719 really cool. 1:14:49.040 --> 1:14:51.280 Hey, before we go, just real quickly, I'm Nicole, come 1:14:51.320 --> 1:14:54.599 on back in on the story about how or rings 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:56.559 and apple watches affect our mental health. 1:14:56.840 --> 1:14:57.519 I've had both. 1:14:57.560 --> 1:15:00.920 Tim has his orr ring on as we speak. Just 1:15:00.960 --> 1:15:03.639 a quick quick thought on this one, because yeah, man, 1:15:03.720 --> 1:15:05.800 we're like obsessed with these wearables. 1:15:06.120 --> 1:15:06.160 No. 1:15:06.439 --> 1:15:09.360 So that story came about with the writer who just 1:15:09.479 --> 1:15:12.320 got aware it just got an orror ring, I think 1:15:12.479 --> 1:15:15.000 for her birthday, and she was just talking to me 1:15:15.000 --> 1:15:17.599 about it and she was like talking about how it 1:15:17.640 --> 1:15:20.240 was just stressing her out. She was starting to track 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:23.040 her data in it on a daily basis. When she 1:15:23.160 --> 1:15:25.640 never used to. She was looking on her app in 1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:28.519 real time to see that her stress level was rising 1:15:29.000 --> 1:15:31.880 from that was like, you know, it was sensed in 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:33.840 her or ring. And so I told her that she 1:15:33.840 --> 1:15:36.599 should write about that and also try to find other 1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:40.080 people who might be having similar experiences, because wearables have 1:15:40.280 --> 1:15:44.519 really surged over the last however many years. Like almost 1:15:44.520 --> 1:15:47.160 everyone I know has an Apple watch that tracks their 1:15:47.240 --> 1:15:49.960 data and tells them how many steps they need to take. 1:15:50.040 --> 1:15:52.240 We have ORR rings, We have all kinds of different 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:56.599 things we wear that track our movements and our heart rates, 1:15:56.760 --> 1:16:01.280 all sorts of stuff. And while this has become so ubiquitous, 1:16:01.280 --> 1:16:03.439 I think it is really important for us to question, 1:16:03.760 --> 1:16:08.280 like what happens as a result. We're getting so much data, now, 1:16:08.800 --> 1:16:10.639 how are we using that data? How is it actually 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:13.800 making us feel? Are these wearables that promise to make 1:16:13.880 --> 1:16:16.880 us well and more healthy are they actually working? There's 1:16:16.920 --> 1:16:19.400 a lot of evidence that they are, but I don't 1:16:19.439 --> 1:16:22.880 think we pay enough attention to how a lot of 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:26.360 this data can needlessly stress us out. And that's what 1:16:26.400 --> 1:16:27.639 the piece really focuses on. 1:16:28.000 --> 1:16:29.800 Bottom line, The only thing I want to add is, like, 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:33.200 you know, staying well, living longer, it costs money, so 1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:36.479 there is certainly a distinction of people tapping into all 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:36.680 of this. 1:16:36.960 --> 1:16:38.439 Guys, this is so great. 1:16:38.520 --> 1:16:40.679 We could go on, but we've unfortunately got a wrap, 1:16:41.320 --> 1:16:43.639 but a really incredible section again from you guys, when 1:16:43.640 --> 1:16:47.840 it comes to wellness in this big quest that everybody's. 1:16:47.400 --> 1:16:48.599 On to live a lot longer. 1:16:48.720 --> 1:16:51.519 That was just an Ocean, deputy editor for Bloomberg Pursuits 1:16:51.520 --> 1:16:55.200 and Nicole Torres, Managing editor for Bloomberg Pursuits. It's the 1:16:55.200 --> 1:16:57.760 Pursuits cover story of the February issue of Bloomberg at 1:16:57.760 --> 1:17:01.000 BusinessWeek Magazine. It's out on newsstands now, online at Bloomberg 1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:03.160 dot com and always on the Bloomberg terminal. 1:17:03.200 --> 1:17:05.360 And that wraps up our weekend edition of Bloomberg BusinessWeek 1:17:05.360 --> 1:17:07.639 from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:09.960 I'm tim Stennebeck and I'm Carol Masser. 1:17:10.000 --> 1:17:12.679 Have a good and safe weekend. Everyone, check out a sauna, 1:17:12.800 --> 1:17:15.000 maybe a spot, or just go out for a long 1:17:15.040 --> 1:17:16.320 walk with people you love. 1:17:17.160 --> 1:17:18.759 That will probably feel really good. 1:17:20.080 --> 1:17:25.480 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:17:25.560 --> 1:17:29.320 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:33.360 afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 1:17:33.400 --> 1:17:37.320 the iHeartRadio app tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. 1:17:37.520 --> 1:17:40.440 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:17:40.520 --> 1:17:42.639 and always on the Bloomberg terminal