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Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowlan's Reese, and you're listening to Switched

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Speaker 1: on the podcast brought to you by Bloomberg NIF. Each year,

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Speaker 1: B andF publishes a Sustainable Energy in America Factbook, an

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Speaker 1: annual report produced in partnership with the Business Council for

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Speaker 1: Sustainable Energy. For more than a decade, it has provided

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Speaker 1: a fact based snapshot of where the US energy system stands,

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Speaker 1: documenting trends in power generation, investment, transport, and policy, providing

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Speaker 1: a factual baseline for understanding the US energy system. The

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six edition captures a pivotal year. Electricity demands

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Speaker 1: surged to a twenty year high, driven in large part

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Speaker 1: by data centers, even as federal policy support for clean

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Speaker 1: energy technologies were scaled back. Despite those headwinds, renewables and

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Speaker 1: storage accounted for the overwhelming majority of new capacity editions,

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Speaker 1: investment reached a record and clean technologies held their ground

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Speaker 1: in a shifting policy landscape. So what does the data

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Speaker 1: really say about where the US energy transition stands and

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Speaker 1: how resilient are clean technology is in the face of

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Speaker 1: policy turbulence? With me today to review findings from the

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Speaker 1: Sustainable Energy in America twenty twenty six fact bookok are

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Speaker 1: Ethan Zindler, Bloomberg NIF's head of Country and Policy Research,

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Speaker 1: and Trina White, a senior associate from our North America

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Speaker 1: Transition Team.

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Speaker 2: BNYF.

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Speaker 1: Clients can find this year's factbook, along with associated research

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Speaker 1: by heading to BNF go on the Bloomberg terminal or

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Speaker 1: BNF dot com. If you'd like to learn more about

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Speaker 1: how BNF approaches strategy research on the energy transition, including

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Speaker 1: developments in commodity markets, trends across different sectors, and the

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Speaker 1: cross cutting technology shaping the future, you can find more

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Speaker 1: information on BNF dot com, and if you'd like to

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Speaker 1: speak with a member of our team about becoming your client,

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Speaker 1: email US at Sales dot BNF at Bloomberg dot net.

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Speaker 1: But for now, let's take a closer look at what

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Speaker 1: the numbers from this year's factbook reveal about the energy

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Speaker 1: transition in the US. Ethan, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: and Trina welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Hi, nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: I'm so the Sustainable Energy in America Factbook something we've

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Speaker 1: been doing for more than a decade. Ethan, you were

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Speaker 1: involved in its inception, so can you just give us

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Speaker 1: a little bit of background as to what is this

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Speaker 1: fight book, Why do we do it? Who reads it?

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Speaker 1: What's the point?

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Speaker 2: Sure good questions. So we've been doing it, yeah, for

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Speaker 2: well over a decade now, and really it's intended as

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Speaker 2: a bit of a level setting in terms of just

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Speaker 2: where things stand in the US in terms of the

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Speaker 2: various technologies that we track and that the Business Council

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Speaker 2: for Sustainable Energy cares about and BCSE for those who

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Speaker 2: don't know, as a coalition representing a slew of companies

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Speaker 2: and trade organizations primarily in the renewables, energy efficiency, and

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Speaker 2: natural gas sectors overall. So the goal of the project

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Speaker 2: from the start has always been to essentially be very

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Speaker 2: much focused just on where we are right now, based

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Speaker 2: in Washington, and let's just say this is a place

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Speaker 2: that could always use a few more and that's one

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Speaker 2: of the goals is to provide them here.

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Speaker 1: Got it? And Trina, you're a relative newcomer to the

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Speaker 1: fact book. How did you find working on a report

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Speaker 1: that is both so broad in its scope and so

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Speaker 1: fact based. It's not to say that bnef's work isn't

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Speaker 1: fact based generally, but we're always then taking those facts

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Speaker 1: and kind of producing sort of a forward looking views,

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Speaker 1: whereas this is really about, just like Ethan said, a

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Speaker 1: level set. So how did you find that process and

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Speaker 1: you know what was ie opening for you? Just generally

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Speaker 1: in a broad sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. It was a very different project from a

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Speaker 3: lot of what BENEF typically works on. For exactly that reason.

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Speaker 3: We actually had to rain ourselves in a bit from

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Speaker 3: trying to, you know, say, what might happen next or

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Speaker 3: include some of our forecasts or our ideas of what

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Speaker 3: might happen over the next five years, because the focus

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Speaker 3: really is just what happened in twenty twenty five and

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Speaker 3: what did that mean in the kind of near term

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Speaker 3: the present moment. It is really interesting from the perspective

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Speaker 3: of touching everything that BENEF does. So for me personally,

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Speaker 3: this was distinct because I sort of recently moved into

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Speaker 3: a role of covering North America from a cross sector perspective.

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Speaker 3: So having this be one of the first projects that

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Speaker 3: I worked on in that new role meant being able

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Speaker 3: to get intimately familiar with a lot of the research

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Speaker 3: that happens across many different sector teams and covering everything

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Speaker 3: from gas to electric vehicles to renewable energy policy and

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Speaker 3: all kind of tying that together in one place.

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Speaker 1: I have also been involved. I've been in Trina's role

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Speaker 1: that she played this year in previous years. I was

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Speaker 1: always really struck by how much people in d C

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Speaker 1: look forward to the publication of this fact book. You know,

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Speaker 1: you would go to the launch and there'd be so

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Speaker 1: many people like, yes, I've got to see his fact book.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like so full of factoids.

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Speaker 3: And I heard Sure referred to it as our super bow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I mean, wow, you know you're an energy wonk.

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Speaker 1: Where the samele Energy in America factbook as your super

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Speaker 1: Bowl And coincidentally it happens at around the same time.

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Speaker 3: So people said, happy fact book week.

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Speaker 1: Happy factbook week? Should we should see if the fact

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Speaker 1: book can be the halftime show for next year. I

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Speaker 1: also love a fact book because so often there's surprising

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Speaker 1: and interesting facts that maybe are contrary to what one's

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Speaker 1: expectations of belief. Sorry, I think that certainly among the

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Speaker 1: people are operating politically in DC, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: perception and it's useful to have information that runs against that. Also,

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Speaker 1: I love a good fact book. When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was a devourer of random facts, typically in the

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Speaker 1: format of did you know x y zed, like did

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Speaker 1: you know that octopuses have three hearts and two of

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Speaker 1: them stop beating when they swim? For example? So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to try something with Trainer and Ethan. I want

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Speaker 1: you to pull interesting facts from the fact book in

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Speaker 1: the format of did you know? And we will say

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Speaker 1: a few and then we'll maybe dive into one. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to go round the table with some facts.

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Speaker 1: Trina and Ethan are obviously going to draw from the

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Speaker 1: fact book because they are experts. My facts are going

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Speaker 1: to be somewhat random, but I'm going to go first,

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Speaker 1: just to get the ball rolling. Did you know bananas

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Speaker 1: are berries but strawberries aren't? Trina? What's your fact.

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Speaker 3: It?

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Speaker 1: Sis me?

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Speaker 3: Did you know that US electricity generation should hit a

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Speaker 3: twenty year high in twenty twenty five, reaching over forty

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Speaker 3: five hundred terawa hours?

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Speaker 1: Interesting? Ethan?

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Speaker 2: Did you know lithiumyan battery manufacturing capacity in the US

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Speaker 2: jumped fifty six percent in twenty twenty five alone, reaching

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Speaker 2: two hundred and ninety five gig or white hours per year?

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Speaker 1: Did you know a group of flamingos is called a flamboyance.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that the US added fifty four dig

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Speaker 3: watts of new utility scale generation it's storage capacity in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, and that's the highest annual total in

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Speaker 3: more than two decades.

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Speaker 2: And did you know that US energy transition investment reached

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Speaker 2: a record three hundred and seventy eight billion dollars in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, even amid major policy changes.

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Speaker 1: Well, that one's interesting. Well, they're all interesting, but.

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Speaker 2: I want to dive into the flamingos. But okay, let's

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Speaker 2: keep it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll talk about the flamingos on another podcast, but

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Speaker 1: let's dive into this investment number. So, sustainable energy investment

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Speaker 1: you just said hit three hundred and seventy eight billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Did that represent an increase year on you?

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Speaker 2: Yes, three and a half percent increase?

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Speaker 1: Got it? And where roughly were we seeing the money going?

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Speaker 1: Was there any trends? I'm assuming that there are sectors

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Speaker 1: where there was an increase and maybe somewhere there was

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Speaker 1: a decrease.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the biggest growth was investment in grids, and

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Speaker 2: that maybe isn't surprising given what we're seeing across the

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Speaker 2: market in terms of suddenly a real step up in

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Speaker 2: demand for electricity, and so there's been a lot of

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Speaker 2: focus on building out the infrastructure to accommodate that. There's

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Speaker 2: been a lot of activity. There's also been a rise

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Speaker 2: in prices of some of the key equipment used in grids,

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Speaker 2: namely transformers among other things, so that certainly I think

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Speaker 2: has contributed to both those things as well. The dollar

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Speaker 2: performance for renewables was not as impressive, but that's not

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Speaker 2: always a bad story because the per unit prices of

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Speaker 2: clean energy have been going down, so you know, you

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Speaker 2: can build more for the same amount of money overall.

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Speaker 2: And then we'll get into talking about evs as well,

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Speaker 2: which it was a new record for ev sales, but

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Speaker 2: the market definitely cooled down in the fourth quarter of

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Speaker 2: the year. So those are kind of the main pieces.

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Speaker 2: I may certainly be missing some up, Patrina, feel free

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Speaker 2: to jump in if I did. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Something that I would add on grids as well that

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Speaker 3: we've seen over the past couple of years is investment

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Speaker 3: in resiliency at wildfire mitigation and just kind of deal

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Speaker 3: with the manifestation of physical climate risk and its impact

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Speaker 3: on the grid and aging infrastructure. So I think we're

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Speaker 3: starting to really see that show up on transport. To

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Speaker 3: Ethan's point, it was just slightly a record year in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five for sales. A lot of that happened

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Speaker 3: in the third quarter, which was just prior to the

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Speaker 3: tax credit incentive for the purchase of new electric vehicles

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Speaker 3: phasing out. And I think what that kind of taking

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Speaker 3: the impact of the phase out on electric vehicles and

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Speaker 3: extrapolating that to what we might have expected to see

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Speaker 3: and maybe will see on the renewable side. The tax

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Speaker 3: incentives for renewables did not phase out in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: so a lot of what people kind of colloquially talked

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Speaker 3: about was maybe seeing the impact of the change of

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Speaker 3: administration on investment levels and renewables. Actually, in fact, what

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Speaker 3: we saw was renewable investment relatively remaining steady, and maybe

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Speaker 3: that's what we could expect to see change over time

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Speaker 3: as incentive structures evolve.

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Speaker 2: Got it.

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Speaker 1: So there are these policy headwinds, but they haven't necessarily

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Speaker 1: hit yet. We know they're coming. But part of the

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Speaker 1: story here is like a change of an administration and

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Speaker 1: a change of attitude towards some of these areas doesn't

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Speaker 1: translate into an instant change of direction in the industry.

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Speaker 1: And so while the resilience of investment is maybe a

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Speaker 1: positive story for people in the space, I guess what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is is that we shouldn't interpret that as

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Speaker 1: policy doesn't matter. It's just that some of it hasn't

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Speaker 1: kicked in yet.

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, exactly. The timelines are complex and the

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Speaker 3: impact will be felt at different times in different sectors.

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Speaker 3: But I do think it's notable that we didn't see

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Speaker 3: investment crash or anything like that in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Got it, Let's do another round of did you know?

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Speaker 1: Did you know sharks existed before trees?

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Speaker 2: Did you know renewable natural gas now accounts for ninety

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Speaker 2: four percent of the fuel used by natural gas vehicles

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Speaker 2: in the US.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that global transition investment hit two point

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Speaker 3: three trillion in twenty twenty five, with China alone accounting

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Speaker 3: for eight hundred billion of that.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that there's a species of jellyfish that

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Speaker 1: is biologically immortal.

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Speaker 2: Did you know duties on non EV batteries jumped from

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Speaker 2: eleven percent to one hundred and fifty six percent in

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Speaker 2: April twenty twenty five? Before settling back at thirty one

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Speaker 2: percent at the end of the year.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that US electricity demand from data centers

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Speaker 3: has grown more than one hundred and fifty percent in

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Speaker 3: the last five years alone and is now one of

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Speaker 3: the dominant drivers of load growth overall.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's one that I think we can dive into

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Speaker 1: a little bit more, because I think that this load

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Speaker 1: growth and data census are such a central story to

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Speaker 1: the US right now. So like, maybe before we even

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Speaker 1: get into that particular angle, what did deployment look like

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Speaker 1: across the power sector generally?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, also at a metal level, I just wanted

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Speaker 3: to note that this is the first year that we

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Speaker 3: actually included several pages on data centers in the fact book,

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Speaker 3: And this gets to kind of the point that we've

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Speaker 3: made earlier about this being kind of backward looking and

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Speaker 3: a stock take on what actually happened. We've been talking

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Speaker 3: about data centers becoming a dominant source of load growth

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Speaker 3: for a long time now, but it was really last

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Speaker 3: year that I think this began to materialize to a

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Speaker 3: great degree, and so it's a big focus of both

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Speaker 3: the fact book itself and then the conversations that we've

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Speaker 3: been having around the fact book, we estimate that data

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Speaker 3: center power demand in the US reached about forty one

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Speaker 3: gigawatts in twenty twenty five. Like we said, that's about

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Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty percent increase in the past five years.

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Speaker 3: That's actually five times as much as occurred in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: So just in the past ten years that number has

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Speaker 3: quinn tubled. A lot of that growth in data center

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Speaker 3: power demand is coming from PGM, which is the largest

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Speaker 3: grid operator in the nation. It's about thirteen states in DC.

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Speaker 3: A lot of it is also in Texas and increasingly

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Speaker 3: in this southeast as more and more of these AI

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Speaker 3: data centers get built out outside of just northern Virginia,

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Speaker 3: which traditionally was kind of a data center hub.

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Speaker 1: So I'm guessing that a lot of this additional power

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Speaker 1: demand that, like you say, it's been on the horizon,

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Speaker 1: but now that's really this is the first year where

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Speaker 1: we've really seen it materially tick up the power demand

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Speaker 1: because of data centers, which I assume means that we've

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Speaker 1: also seen an increase in capacity. So are we seeing

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Speaker 1: more capacity? When I say capacity, I mean capacity for

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Speaker 1: producing electricity? More power plants of different types I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: that's getting built to meet this Demnon, what are we

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Speaker 1: seeing getting built?

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Speaker 3: Well, we certainly are seeing a lot of capacity editions.

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Speaker 3: I think. Actually one of my did you knows was

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Speaker 3: that twenty twenty five was a record year for capacity

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Speaker 3: editions of utility scale generation and storage capacity in the US.

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Speaker 3: That being said, a lot of grid operators and tech

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Speaker 3: companies will tell you that this is not being built

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Speaker 3: out nearly fast enough to meet that increase in data

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Speaker 3: center demand, and that mismatch between supply and demand is

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Speaker 3: now sort of manifesting in price hikes, particularly at the

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Speaker 3: wholesale level and increasingly also at the retail rate or

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Speaker 3: what gets passed on to consumers. That being said, it

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Speaker 3: was a record year of build about fifty four gigawatts

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Speaker 3: of utility scale capacity interconnected to the grid. The vast

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Speaker 3: majority that is clean, so if we include storage, about

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Speaker 3: ninety percent of new capacity editions were zero carbon, twenty

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Speaker 3: seven gigawatts of that with solar. Fifteen gigawatts of that

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Speaker 3: was energy storage. Utility scale storage really didn't become a

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Speaker 3: huge story until the past about like four years or so.

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Speaker 3: We've been talking about batteries for a long time, but

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Speaker 3: that growth is really beginning to truly materialize as the

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Speaker 3: benefits of batteries to grid reliability increase as costs come

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Speaker 3: down significantly.

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Speaker 2: This is so.

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Speaker 1: Interesting because I think, I think when we hear about

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Speaker 1: this explosive growth and power demand because of data centers,

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Speaker 1: so much of the talk is, you know, what about

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Speaker 1: all these gas plants they're going to have to get

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Speaker 1: built to beat this demand because they're the only ones

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Speaker 1: that can do it. Or how much more fossil fuels

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Speaker 1: are we going to be consuming? I'm kind of curious

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Speaker 1: to know. You know, obviously there's been more capacity built,

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Speaker 1: but how has generation evolved in and are we seeing

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Speaker 1: more coal or more gas? What's going on there?

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Speaker 2: So maybe I'll just jump in for one second and

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Speaker 2: maybe one quick thing just to add onto a Trina

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Speaker 2: was saying about prices, and we should come back and

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit about prices, because it's certainly been

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Speaker 2: retail prices have been getting a lot of attention, and

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Speaker 2: they have been going up in some parts of the

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Speaker 2: US just at the same time that we've seen a

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Speaker 2: lot of these data centers come online or start to

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Speaker 2: get initiated to get built. I would say there's not

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Speaker 2: a there's certainly a lot of kind of correlation in

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Speaker 2: terms of the pricing going up in some of the

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Speaker 2: same places where the data centers are getting built. There

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Speaker 2: isn't necessarily proven causation yet, but there very well could

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Speaker 2: be into the future. So I think we could kind

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Speaker 2: of park that and come back to it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the actual generation, You're right, Tom, I

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Speaker 2: mean we we as was mentioned, I think earlier, we

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Speaker 2: did hit a high of forty five hundred tarowad hours

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Speaker 2: of total generation, the highest level in twenty years at least,

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Speaker 2: and it has been a little bit kind of all

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Speaker 2: hands on deck in terms of whatever can produce has

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Speaker 2: been producing. And so as a result of that, to

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Speaker 2: take the kind of clearest example of that cold generation,

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Speaker 2: which has generally been sliding really over the last decade,

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Speaker 2: and at one time was about over a decade ago,

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Speaker 2: was about forty percent of total generation. It dipped all

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Speaker 2: the way to fifteen percent in twenty twenty four, but

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Speaker 2: it actually ticked up a little bit into twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five to seven hundred and thirty five tarrawat hours from

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Speaker 2: six hundred and fifty two the year prior. And so

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Speaker 2: you know, that's the you know, from an environmental perspective,

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Speaker 2: that's the less good news. Obviously in terms of the

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Speaker 2: you know, the new stuff that got built, Trina really

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Speaker 2: touched on it. It's almost entirely zero carbon. And then

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Speaker 2: in terms of what to come, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: of course where we're venturing outside the safe spheres facts

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Speaker 2: and into the world of it's a speculation, but you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously a lot of concern and discussion around what that

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Speaker 2: will be. I think it's our general view that we

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Speaker 2: don't think coal new coal plants are not going to

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Speaker 2: be what comes along, but potentially a good deal of

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Speaker 2: new gas power generation is in the works, but with

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Speaker 2: some natural limitations, just based on the availability of natural

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Speaker 2: gas turbines that can actually outfit those projects to produce

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Speaker 2: that power.

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Speaker 1: It kind of comes back to what Trina was saying is,

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Speaker 1: you know, we highlighted there's been a lot of renewables

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Speaker 1: being built to meet this new demand, but it's actually

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Speaker 1: not enough of everything, you know, whether it's gas or renewables,

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Speaker 1: not enough is getting built. It kind of has this

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Speaker 1: knock on effect on power prices.

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Speaker 3: So actually I wanted to touch on a couple of

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Speaker 3: the points that Ethan just made and expand on it

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Speaker 3: a bit, particularly when it comes to the coal power

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Speaker 3: generation increase. We really do see that flow through to

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Speaker 3: emissions in a meaningful way, which we do focus on

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Speaker 3: in the factbook. One thing that I think is pretty

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Speaker 3: striking is that the progress that the US has made

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Speaker 3: on emissions over the past about twenty years or so

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Speaker 3: from the original Paris Agreement basedline of two thousand and five,

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Speaker 3: most of that progress has come from the power sector.

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Speaker 3: So that story of coal power generation being displaced by

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Speaker 3: cleaner sources of generation like gas and like renewables, has

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Speaker 3: really driven the decrease in overall US economy wide emissions.

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Speaker 3: That trend reversed just slightly in the past two years,

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Speaker 3: so power sector emissions and economy wide emissions basically flatlined

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Speaker 3: are actually in stop slightly, and that is a story

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Speaker 3: that kind of follows directly from that increase in coal

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Speaker 3: power generation, as existing plants had to run more to

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Speaker 3: meet increased demand.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, we talked about how much

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Speaker 1: renewables got built more than anything, but this increase in

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Speaker 1: demand changes what that actually means. So in the past

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Speaker 1: they meant more renewables meant less coal, and you know,

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Speaker 1: once the coal is displaced, it would eventually mean less gas.

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Speaker 1: But actually those renewables were just meeting increased demand, and

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Speaker 1: you know that sounds very interesting academically. I suppose where

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Speaker 1: it really matters is a year that it might be good,

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Speaker 1: or a trend that might be good if you're a

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Speaker 1: wind or solar developer or in those industries. Generally does

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Speaker 1: not necessarily mean that it's a year that's good if

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Speaker 1: you're an environmentalist, and that's what your concern is.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's an overallapp between the interest of the renewables

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Speaker 3: industry and the climate movement, but they don't align completely.

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Speaker 1: Got it? So we do some more facts if you're ready.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that sloths can hold their breath longer

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Speaker 1: than dolphins?

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Speaker 3: Did you know that climate related damages in the US

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Speaker 3: totaled over eight hundred billion dollars in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: that's about two point six percent of GDP?

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Speaker 2: Did you know that nuclear power announced for data center

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Speaker 2: projects totals forty three gigawattes compared to just zero point

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Speaker 2: four to three gigawattes of advanced geothermal.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that the inventor of the microwave, discovered

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Speaker 1: it after chocolate bar melted in his pocket.

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Speaker 2: As you know, US EV sales hit a record one

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Speaker 2: point six million vehicles in twenty twenty five, accounting for

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Speaker 2: about one in ten new cars sold.

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Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, let's let's dive into that one. Because electric

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Speaker 1: vehicles are a very hot topic always, and you know,

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Speaker 1: with all these headwinds we've been talking about, it was

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Speaker 1: a record year and a lot we see a lot

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Speaker 1: of negativity in the press or we have in the

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Speaker 1: last few years around the USCV market. So what gives there?

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Speaker 2: I guess I'll just start by maybe I'll give the

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Speaker 2: policy piece for just a second, which is, you know,

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Speaker 2: in essence to kind of oversimplify things. In twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: the US federal government pretty much eliminated all the major

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Speaker 2: supports for the purchase of electric vehicles, the number one

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Speaker 2: one being the seventy five hundred dollars per vehicle tax

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Speaker 2: credit the consumers were receiving for each car that they bought.

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Speaker 2: But they also essentially declawed the corporate average fuel economy

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Speaker 2: standards so that car makers that violated those standards by

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Speaker 2: selling too many higher emission vehicles did not have to

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Speaker 2: pay penalties. So essentially the incentives there to green their

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Speaker 2: fleet all but disappeared. There were some incentives still left

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Speaker 2: in place for the manufacture and production of evs and

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Speaker 2: for the equipment that goes into evs, but essentially the

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Speaker 2: kind of demand side policies basically all but disappeared in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. And maybe I'll hand it to tune

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Speaker 2: in to talk about sales a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually wanted to add on from the policy perspective.

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Speaker 3: Something else that flows through to the demand side into

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Speaker 3: prices is tariffs and how that gets passed on to

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Speaker 3: the consumer, and tariffs is a broader story. But for

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Speaker 3: EV's in particular, one thing I'll know is that EV

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Speaker 3: batteries will tear were fairly high throughout twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: They were actually relatively stable, particularly compared to non EV

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Speaker 3: stationary storage batteries, and so that at least allowed a

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Speaker 3: little bit of predictability and ability to plan around the

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Speaker 3: costs of teriffs for imports. About thirty five percent of

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Speaker 3: the EV sold two years ago, so when we last

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Speaker 3: had data in twenty twenty four, prior to those new

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Speaker 3: terrats about thirty five percent were manufactured abroad, So that

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Speaker 3: impact of trade policy definitely is relevant for evs. But

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Speaker 3: in terms of the actual sales numbers, I kind of

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Speaker 3: alluded to this earlier, but sales spiked in the third

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Speaker 3: quarter just prior to the elimination of the tax credit.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of thousands of vehicles sold in the

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Speaker 3: third quarter, we reached over five hundred thousand. That plummeted

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Speaker 3: in the fourth quarter. So immediately after consumers saw that

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Speaker 3: demand incentive disappear, sales went down to about three hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand in the fourth quarter. So that kind of process

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Speaker 3: of folks planning around the incentives. We saw that happen

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Speaker 3: with the evs first, and I think we can also

440
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: take that as a signal for what might happen in

441
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 3: other sectors as the tax credits start to pull back.

442
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a classic trend you see with policy changes,

443
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: is a lot of investment or purchases getting brought forward,

444
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: and so then there's a dip straight after. And that's

445
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: partly because the incentive is gone, but also partly because

446
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: some stuff that would have been getting brought then comes earlier.

447
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: I kind of want to just understand for the electric

448
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: vehicles in the US. It's not just like one policy

449
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: to rule them all. It's like there's a complex intersection

450
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: of policies here, and I really want to understand the

451
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: implications of all of it and how it fits together.

452
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: So Ethan mentioned the fuel economy standards being rolled back,

453
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: which disincentivizes automakers too. I suppose manufacturing cellvs. There's the

454
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: egg spirery of the tax credit that disincentivizes consumers to

455
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: buy evs. Doesn't mean that automakers can't sell them. It

456
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that nobody will want to buy them, but

457
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: there's just, you know, financially, some of the incentive has

458
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: gone away. If I understand correctly. This point around tariffs,

459
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I understand it correctly. So

460
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about tariffs not on foreign EV's. You're talking

461
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: about tariffs on foreign EV batteries. So does that stemy

462
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: US EV manufacturing more than it's Stemy's foreign EV manufacturing,

463
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: or does that tariff also apply to electric vehicles manufactured

464
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: and brought in from abroad. I just want to make

465
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: sure we're clear on how that changes the picture.

466
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 3: I think that's a nice way of saying that I

467
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 3: looped together two different things. Both are important, So one

468
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: would be the components, and chief among them the batteries

469
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: for evs and the tariffs applied to those batteries, and

470
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: then also the tariffs on manufactured vehicles themselves, which are

471
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: also irrelevant.

472
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, the time I think you're kind of getting

473
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: it to there's two couple of things. There's the tariffs

474
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: on the batteries and then there's terraffs on the final

475
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: finished vehicles overall, and under the Biden administration, the administration

476
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 2: put in place one hundred percent tariffs essentially on Chinese

477
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: made electric vehicles, and those have stayed on the books

478
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: and the de facto were intended to essentially keep Chinese

479
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: evs out of the United States, and they have been

480
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: successful in that regard, and as a result, you know,

481
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: we haven't seen the kind of downward pressure, you know,

482
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: minus subsidies on evs that they've seen in some other

483
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: markets around the world, and we haven't seen. You basically

484
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: don't see any Chinese evs. You don't see me at

485
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: all on the roads in the United States, but you

486
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: see plenty of them in places like Brazil or parts

487
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: of Europe where there are not such strong tariffs.

488
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is there's no way to really

489
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: harm sort of foreign manufactured imports coming to the US

490
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: because they were already non existent under the Biden administration.

491
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: So that's not really a dynamic that could ever be

492
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: more bearish than it already was. So it's really the

493
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: only thing that's really changing is the ability of US

494
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: based EV manufacturing.

495
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: Has made it. There are certainly less incentives for consumers

496
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: to buy them, there's less pressure on manufacturers in the

497
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: United States to produce them. There remains incentives for them

498
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: to manufacture them under the tax code, the forty five

499
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: X tax credit. But the other thing we've certainly seen

500
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: are a number of announcements from the automakers that they

501
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: are less committed to wanting to manufacture evs. So I

502
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: think your point about them having the option still if

503
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: they see there to be a market that's certainly valid.

504
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: It's just a number of them have made the determination

505
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: that they don't see the market and they are scaling

506
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: back some of their ambitions to manufacture vs.

507
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: So prey critical moment in time for the US auto

508
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: industry as it relates to electric vehicles. I think that's

509
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: fair to say.

510
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: Well, it seems clear that there's been a real pivot

511
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: on this in terms of again not most of the

512
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: manufacturers sort of making different statements now about what their

513
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: intentions are in this space. I do think and this

514
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: is not a fact, but again we're getting into the

515
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: realm of speculation. But President Trump said something fairly surprising

516
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: in January where he expressed an openness to having Chinese

517
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: automakers have manufacturing plants in the United States. It was

518
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: really the first time at least I could recall hearing

519
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: him say that, and he is due to go to China,

520
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: so it'll be interesting to see how that develops. The

521
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: Chinese automakers in other parts of the world are moving

522
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: quickly to either form joint ventures or to just put

523
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: plants entirely on their own into places like Hungary and

524
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: Brazil to serve the local markets. And you know, it's

525
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: at least worth a little speculation in that. You know,

526
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: once upon a time, the US automakers in US policy

527
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: makers felt very threatened by Japanese automakers, and then eventually

528
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: Japanese automakers opened a number of manufacturing plants in the

529
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: United States and created a number of jobs here. So

530
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: I guess all I could say on this is sort

531
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 2: of watch this space.

532
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: That's interesting. And you know, this idea that Chinese EV

533
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: makers might start manufacturing the US in order to serve

534
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: the US market, I mean, you gave countless examples. It's

535
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: not a crazy idea, because that is what has happened

536
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: in the past with conventional vehicles, not necessarily from China.

537
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: But I think also, I mean we've back in the

538
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: midst of time. I remember having a podcast conversation about

539
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: a very similar set of policies in the EU, and

540
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned Hungary to encourage Chinese even I was either

541
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: battery or EV manufacturing to be located in Europe. So

542
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: this is not an outlandish idea that what you're suggesting

543
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: may come to pass. But yeah, I guess it gives

544
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: us a reason to see what we're saying about this

545
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: in a year's time when we're talking about the twenty

546
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: twenty seven Sustainable Energy America in America factbook.

547
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. By the way, I wouldn't consider what I just

548
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: said a prediction, just to be clear, because again, you know,

549
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: in Washington, there is a lot of opposition to Chinese

550
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: manufacturing the automakers in the United States remain politically powerful forces,

551
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: and so you know, it could very well be that

552
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: they and politicians and voters are not receptive to anything

553
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: I just suggested.

554
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: I love that, Ethan, you should never be a politician,

555
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, with a statement like I'm not sure that

556
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: politicians or voters would ever be receptive to anything I'm saying.

557
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: Let's do one last round of did.

558
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: You know my favorite game?

559
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: Your favorite game? Did you know a day on Venus

560
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: is longer than a year on Venus?

561
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: Did you know the cumula of US renewable capacity reached

562
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: five hundred and forty two gig watts in twenty twenty five,

563
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: which was up twelve percent.

564
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: Year on year. Interesting? But did you know that sea

565
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: otters hold hands while they sleep so they don't drift apar?

566
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: They're so cute. Did you know that lithium ion battery

567
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: manufacturing capacity in the US jumped fifty six percent in

568
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five alone, reaching two hundred and ninety five

569
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: gigawa hours per year?

570
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: That is interesting.

571
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: Did you know that US debt financing for the Energy

572
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: Transition grew fifteen percent year on year to reach two

573
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: hundred and ninety five billion dollars in twenty twenty five.

574
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: It's interesting some of go did you know facts? There

575
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: are really positive signals for the energy transition. I know

576
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: that after a few years of sort of maybe it

577
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: feeling like a bit of a victory parade when we

578
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: were doing the BCS fact book, I remember when the

579
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act passed. It's a lot more complex picture here,

580
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: but there are still some really positive signals in amongst everything. So,

581
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: stepping back, what defines the US energy story entering twenty

582
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: twenty six?

583
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I would say one of the lines

584
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: that I often use thematically as I'm talking about this

585
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: fact book and in effect kind of answering that question,

586
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 3: is I say clean energy held its ground in twenty

587
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: twenty five. It wasn't necessarily a massive growth story, but

588
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: I think given all of the turbulence, really what this

589
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: industry has shown is more kind of robustness and resilience

590
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: than we ever saw before. These are now, especially when

591
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: we're talking about like winded solar, these are established industries

592
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: in a way that we might not have said even

593
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: five ten years ago. In many circumstances, in many markets,

594
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: wind and solar are now cost competitive with fossil fuels,

595
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: certainly with coal, which is now extremely expensive, but also

596
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 3: with gas and so on kind of a core economics level, unsubsidized.

597
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: Even taking out some of this policy back and forth,

598
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: renewables now are just competitive and can sometimes be the

599
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: cheapest and the fastest to build. So I think some

600
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: of the kind of fundamentals are now so much stronger

601
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: that even though there's been a bit of whiplash from

602
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: the policy perspective on these industries kind of remain strong.

603
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 2: I would add, I think that's really well put. I mean,

604
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: I think that if we think back on last year,

605
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: it was a year of sort of in many ways

606
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: when we think from renewables in particular, it was almost

607
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: the worst possible scenario in terms of, you know what,

608
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: the major policy damage that was done through the One

609
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: Big Beautiful Bill Act and through other measures. But the

610
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: withdrawal of some of those supports really came at what

611
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: is arguably one of the best possible times for the

612
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: industry in the fact that, well, first the Street of

613
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: points out, the technology costs have come way down, and

614
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: so these texts really are cost competitive in many parts

615
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: of the US, not everywhere, to be clear, but many

616
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: parts of the US. And the second major trend is

617
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: just demand is growing for electricity in a way that

618
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: we really haven't seen in twenty years, and so that

619
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: rising tide has the potential to lift all boats and

620
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: just to kind of torment this metaphor a little bit,

621
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: as Trina alludes to it. If you're one of the

622
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: boats with greater lift or floatation devices on it, you're

623
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: going to get lifted first. And that's what's happening now

624
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: because the reality of it is that if you are

625
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: desperate to add another gigo out of new capacity to

626
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: power your data center, you need it from where you

627
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: can get it soonest, and that tends to be solar

628
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: plus storage or solar and wind plus storage. That's sort

629
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: of your short term game plan. Medium to long term,

630
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: you're talking a lot more about gas and there's definitely

631
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: a lot of plans like that on the books. And

632
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: then longer term as well, we're hearing a lot more

633
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: about new nuclear and about some of the new geothermal

634
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: technologies as well.

635
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: It's really I think the points you're making are so

636
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: interesting about this robustness about maybe there was never a

637
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: better time for wind and sola to lose some of

638
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: their policy support, or the energy transition generally kind of

639
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: reminds you know, what is the point even of providing

640
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: policy support to industries. It's to foster them so they

641
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: can grow up to a point to meet future needs

642
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: and maybe even if it's not as clean, and maybe

643
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: if it's not reducing emissions in the way that perhaps

644
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: the original people who conceive these policies expected. We are

645
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: in that moment is that these technologies are maybeing being

646
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: forced to fly the nest, and what we're seeing is

647
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: that they do actually have wings and they can fly

648
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: on their own. It's not necessarily easy or pretty, but

649
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: there is a lot to be optimistic about in those spaces,

650
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: and now is a very interesting moment to see how

651
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: they do our in the wild.

652
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 3: I think that feels right to me for our solar

653
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: and wind and kind of the industries we consider it

654
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: to be more mature, but particularly for some of the

655
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: solutions that I think we will need to see build

656
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: out from a decarbonization perspective, so carbon capture also kind

657
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: of advanced nuclear. Some of these technologies are still very expensive,

658
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: and what you're talking about in terms of policy helping

659
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: to get these technologies off the ground and reduce costs

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Speaker 3: over time. I think we probably still do need to

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Speaker 3: see some support for those earlier stage technologies.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Ethan and Trina for today. This is such

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Speaker 1: an interesting moment in the US energy transition space. Generally,

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Speaker 1: the picture has changed so much, is changing its dynamic.

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Speaker 1: We're learning new things as we go. I learned a

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Speaker 1: lot of facts today, thank you. I know we didn't

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Speaker 1: dive into all of them, and I hope my facts

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Speaker 1: were interesting as well, maybe less on topic. So Trina,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, and I particularly appreciated the odder fact.

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Speaker 1: Save the best to last. Ethan, Yeah, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: You beat me to it.

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Speaker 2: Tuna, thanks for the oters.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, and also just want to give a shout

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Speaker 1: out to Lisa Jacobson and everyone at the BCSE who

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Speaker 1: are just always such great partners to work with on this,

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Speaker 1: and also to Lara Cammon who was integral to the

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Speaker 1: project on the BNF side this year.

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Speaker 4: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by cam Gray

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00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 4: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a

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00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 4: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP. And its affiliates. This

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Speaker 4: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as

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Speaker 4: investment a vice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to

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00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 4: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg anif should not be

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Speaker 4: considered as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.

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00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 4: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes

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00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness

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Speaker 4: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability

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Speaker 4: as a result belt of this recording is expressly disclaimed.

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Speaker 3: M