1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: name is normal. They call me Ben. We are joined 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: with our super producer, Paul Mission Controlled Decond. Most importantly, 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here that makes this stuff 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. For some of our 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: long time listeners, this may be a familiar topic. You see, 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: way way back in the olden days, when Stuff they 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: Don't Want You to Know was purely a video show 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: on YouTube, Amazon and iTunes which is Apple Music now right, 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: but mostly the YouTube's Yeah. Way back in the day, 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: this show was entirely a video series and we covered 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: all sorts of bizarre and strange events. The videos were 16 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: much shorter um. They were more like introduction episodes or 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: primers for things that we would invite people to examine 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: in depth on their own, and they looked a lot 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: better than the podcast. Yeah and mad Genius Matt Frederick 20 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: was creating some stunning visuals. I was just saying, mostly 21 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: because your face was on it for most of the 22 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: time been. Yeah, I don't anyone who hasn't beheld the 23 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: majesty that is the face of ben Bowland. It is 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: a thing to be hoped. Like speaking to you through 25 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: the internet. All all four of us are lookers. And uh, 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: I think that the three of us all appear at 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: some point in that video series. Paul mission control decond 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: did not to my mod it did one? Which one 29 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: is here? There's a video? Oh gosh, is from It's 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: the neuromarketing video. I want to say, no, wait, is 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: it not. It's not neuromarketing. It's one where you're trying 32 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: to find me and I'm in a sleeping bag. Oh. 33 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: And we walked past Paul's desk and Paul is sitting 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: there with Annie next to him. Another producer here, and god, 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: she's not a producer anymore. I'm so sorry. She's the 36 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: host of Saber and the host of Sminty. You see. 37 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: That's how long we've been here doing this stuff. Back 38 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: in the day, Annie and Paul and me, we were 39 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: just producers, man, That's what we did. This was a 40 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: buckhead first off. I object to saying just producers. This 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: was back in our buckhead days when we're in different office, right, 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: I remember that video? Yeah, but see now what I'm 43 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: what I mean by that? Is it now? Paul has 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: been on movie Crush recently talking about movies. Paul is 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: Paul is going to be starting his own podcast really soon. 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: It's called The decand it's only one second long. It's 47 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: also guys, just on the marketing end of that, we 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: would prefer in messaging that you refer to it as 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: a podcast. Yeah, it's a podcast. So so, okay, mystery solved. 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: At least one mystery solved for today's episode. We have 51 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: all four appeared on the videos. If you watched the 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Videos series, then you would have probably run into something 53 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: that was very mysterious to us, a walnut that we 54 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: could not quite crack. And video format. We looked at 55 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: an organization called the Finders. The Finders were um involved 56 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: in an incident that shocked the United States in the 57 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: late eighties and then largely disappeared from the news. So 58 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: the best way and think to delve into this very 59 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: very strange organization is to start with that event that 60 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: made national news. Here are the facts. On February eight, 61 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: the New York Times ran an odd article. It was 62 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: a report on six children who were found in a 63 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: Tallahassee playground earlier that week, on February five, And you 64 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: know that's okay. There's six children found on a playground. 65 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: That's a little weird to begin with, but it gets 66 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: much stranger, right it does. According to an anonymous phone 67 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: call to the local police department, these kids aged two 68 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: to seven years old. We're not alone. They were accompanied 69 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: by two well dressed men in their mid to late twenties, 70 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: a guy named Douglas Edward Zimmerman and a guy named 71 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: Michael jula Han, which I think that's just a fun 72 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: last name to say or have hold. So so you've 73 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: got these two again, according to this color, well dressed gentlemen, 74 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: well dressed men standing there with these kids. The kids, however, 75 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: they look unkempt. They look to be just dirty and 76 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: in some way, again to this caller, somehow injured or abused. 77 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: And the first reports noted that at least two of 78 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: the kids exhibited some signs of sexual abuse. Now that's 79 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: a tough thing in my mind to quantify just by 80 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: a visual um but who knows the circumstances there. You'd 81 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: ideally want a medical professional to examine the children, the 82 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: doctor because that's a heavy accusation, yeah, or therapists. It 83 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like something you could easily profile. So we 84 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: have a lot of details about the men. They were 85 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: either in a nineteen seventy nine or nine eight blue 86 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: Dodge van with Virginia plates. Uh. The license number, which 87 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: we could tell you now because this was back in 88 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: the eighties. It's x h W five five seven. And 89 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: who knows where that license plate is now if it's 90 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: been reused. Could I hope it's not yours? Yeah? Or 91 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: I definitely hope it's not someone's idea of a nifty 92 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: vanity plate. So inside this van things become more distressing. 93 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: The van smells terrible. It's filled with maps, books, letters, 94 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: there's a mattress in the rear of the van, and 95 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: the police, based on the appearance of this vehicle, got 96 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: the feeling that all eight people, the six kids and 97 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: the two adults, were living in it and had been 98 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: for some time. So these guys, who, to be clear, 99 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: are not the parents of any of these children. They 100 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: get arrested, they get booked into the Leon County jail. 101 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: They get charged with multiple counts of child abuse and 102 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: once they're in custody, the men um were somewhat evasive 103 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: in their responses to the police in terms of the 104 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: children and their relationship with them, and said only that 105 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: they were the children's teachers and that they were all 106 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: en route to Mexico to create a school for gifted children. 107 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: Brilliant even, And at that point the police say, okay, 108 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: well that's an interesting story. We don't know if it 109 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: all adds up. We're gonna go ahead and remove these 110 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: kids from your care. And then they tried, or they 111 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: started the process of at least of trying to identify 112 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: these children, like if this these guys are supposedly teachers, 113 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: where are their parents? Right? Right? So we're going to 114 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: play around with their chronology just a little bit and 115 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: let you know spoiler alert that in March seventeen of 116 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: that same year, the charges against the men were entirely 117 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: dismissed and they were released from custody. This is only 118 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: the beginning of the story. As it turns out, these 119 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: two gentlemen were not acting alone. They were members of 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: a group, a commune of sorts, an organization that some 121 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: would call a cult, and this would come to be 122 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: known as the finders. The mothers of those six children 123 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: were also affiliated with this organization, and they came forward 124 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: to the public through a spokesperson, Diane Sherwood, confirming that 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: they had approved this trip and that the two men 126 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: were taking the kids camping and everybody would be meeting 127 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: up with the mothers at a later date. Furthermore, the 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: spokesperson confirmed that the mothers would now be traveling to 129 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: Tallahassee to pick up their children. So thus far we've 130 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: got we're teachers taking them to Mexico to start a 131 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: new school for brilliant children, and now we've got the 132 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: mothers coming forward through a spokesperson saying no, no, no no, no, no, 133 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. They were going on a camping trip. 134 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: Those guys were just you know, I guess the chaperones 135 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: maybe not mutually exclusive. But it is weird that the 136 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: story is already don't seem to jibe in a waterproof way. 137 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: So initial reports in various papers of note from the 138 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune to The New York Times, the Washington Post 139 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: and more, implied that this was a case of everything 140 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: from a mundane kidnapping to possibly human trafficking to ellipses 141 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: dot dot dot a cult. Now this this is not 142 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: a particularly uncommon story in the nineteen eighties because this 143 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: occurs at the height of what is called the Satanic 144 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Panic in American culture, and during this time, largely in 145 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: the eighties, but a little bit out in the nineties 146 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: and seventies as well. There are numerous serious allegations of 147 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: cults conducting satanic rituals, abusing, sacrificing or kidnapping children, um 148 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: and murdering people left and right. These proliferate throughout the 149 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: national zeitgeist. Some of us listening may be old enough 150 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: to remember this, but if you were born after this time, 151 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: it's a Google search away. These are the days when 152 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: various rock bands would be accute used of encoding satanic 153 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: messages onto their records in some kind of Rube Goldbergs 154 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: complicated plan to convert people to them to the infernal 155 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: powers of darkness. Yeah, even the Zodiac case. Haraldo Rivera 156 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and one of his shows he was making at the time, 157 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: turned that into a Satanic panic thing, like it was 158 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: all about Satan and all of the symbols and everything, 159 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: and it's crazy to think, like, especially Haraldo and some 160 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: of these talk shows that's where I generally have memories 161 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: of seeing that kind of interview with somebody like, oh, 162 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: you were abused by a Satanic cult. You sacrificed your 163 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: own children, like what? And the other guy with the 164 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: white hair was Donna Hue. Yeah, I remember, I barely 165 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: remember that show, but he was. He was active in 166 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: this stuff as well. And while the idea of Satanism, 167 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: or the misconception of what Satanism is what would be 168 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: called deistic Satanism, which we don't have to get into today, 169 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: but it's it's different on While that gets top billing 170 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: in in the marquee of this cultural phenomenon, the big 171 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: concern was any kind of cult, a pagan by which 172 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: they non Christian religious organization, and a lot of these 173 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: things were used as smear tactics against people that were 174 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: unusual or groups that were unorthodox. But here's the thing. 175 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: In the case of the Finders, these accusations may have 176 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: been more accurate than not. So that sounds intense. What 177 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: when are we going to find out about that? After 178 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy. 179 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: The investigation continues and it gets more and more complicated, 180 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: and straight change and eventually goes sour. So let's go 181 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: back to February of so in the course of verifying 182 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: the identities and the stories of the men who were 183 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: arrested in Florida, police traced this cult to Virginia and 184 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: Washingt d C. Where they also obtained a warrant to 185 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: search several buildings that were believed to be occupied by 186 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: this group. Originally the Post The Washington Post reported that 187 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: police found thousands of photos and documents and computer programs 188 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: at these various locations. They hoped that analyzing these would 189 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: give them what they needed, what they hoped to learn 190 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: to help them decide what exactly the finders organization was. 191 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: And we have a quote from that Washington Post article. 192 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: It says they quote removed large plastic bags filled with 193 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: color slides, photographs, and photographic contact sheets. Some photos visible 194 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: through the bag carried from the warehouse at thirteen oh 195 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: seven fourth Eat. We're wallet sized pictures of children, similar 196 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: to school photos, and some were of naked children. Here's 197 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: a continuing quote here. DC police sources said that some 198 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: of the items seized yesterday showed pictures of children engaged 199 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: in what appeared to be cult rituals. Officials of the U. 200 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: S Customs Service, called into aid in the investigation, said 201 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: that the material season includes photos showing children involved in 202 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: blood letting, ceremonies of animals, and one photograph of a 203 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: child in chains. Customs officials said they were looking into 204 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: whether a child pornography operation was being conducted. Very very 205 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: heavy stuff in Yeah, and again, this is the Washington Post. 206 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: This is not, uh, some tabloid where you would see 207 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: the Satanic panic accusations a lot of the time. Right. 208 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: This is not Weekly World News or the National Enquirer. 209 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: According to the records from the U. S District Court 210 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: in Washington, a confidential police source had previously told authorities 211 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: back in eighty six that the Finders were quote a 212 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: cult and they were conducting brainwashing operations at this warehouse 213 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: and then at a duplex in the Glover Park neighborhood. 214 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: The source told the police that they had been recruited 215 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: by the Finders with promises of financial reward and sexual gratification, 216 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: and that they were invited by at least one member 217 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: to explore Satanism with them, and then, according to the affidavit, 218 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: the same source told authorities that children were used in 219 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: rituals by the members, and the source did say they 220 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: had never witnessed abuse of the children, but that the 221 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: children's grandparents feared for their safety. No. Wow, So it 222 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: seems as though the parents had gotten involved in the 223 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: cult itself and the children were just kind of, um, 224 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, they were victims of association many as will 225 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: come to find. We're born into the organization. But while 226 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: we're on the subject of those six kids, we learn 227 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: a little bit more about them. So in the original reports, um, 228 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: the kids were described as being hungry, dirty, and under 229 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: duress of some kind, irritated a little bit, behaving erratically somewhat. 230 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: But a local doctor who examined them said that none 231 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: of the children were actually ill. Uh. None seemed to 232 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: recognize objects though, like typewriters or staplers. Um. Though most 233 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: of the kids would wouldn't really talk to the police, 234 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: the oldest child was able to do that a little 235 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: bit more effectively. Um. She confirmed that she and the 236 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: other children had lived in Washington, d C. In a house, 237 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: a group house, that the men were their teachers, and 238 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: that while living in this house in d C, they 239 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: received instructions from a man called the game caller or 240 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: game Leaders has got some true detective Season three Government 241 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: name of this guy is Merry and Petty. Yeah, so 242 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: the kids said, Mr. Petty quote tells everyone what to do. 243 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: He's in charge. We kids slept outside and the mommy's 244 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: slept inside Mr Petty. And I find this to be 245 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: an odd thing for a kid to say, but it 246 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: sounds like they almost had their own way of talking 247 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: from this isolation they experienced. Mr Petty weans the kids 248 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: from the moms m HM. And this man police would 249 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: come to find was named Mary and Petty. He was 250 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: known by various monikers in the group. He was called 251 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: the stroller, or the game caller, or the game leader. 252 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: And the neighbors of these DC locations were conflicted in 253 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: their descriptions of the finders. Some describe the group as 254 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: an out and out cult. They said that only women 255 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: and children live on these premises. Male members of the 256 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: cult visit them frequently, and the adults are left over hippies, 257 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: and they don't really seem to care what the kids 258 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: do or what happens. I mean, these kids were so 259 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: dirty that they were prevented on from playing on playgrounds 260 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: in the area with other children because they had sores, 261 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: they were covered in filth. But another individual who had 262 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: been associated with them in years past, not as a member. 263 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: He described the group as close knit feminist and they 264 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: said they're not a cult. They're all helping people, helping 265 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: folks in the community. And we see this contradictory information 266 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: make it to the press too. By February eleven, eighty seven, 267 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: the media had alternately described the group as a satanic cult, 268 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: a group of Mary Prankster's kind of electric kool Aid 269 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: acid test style gone too far off the rails, or 270 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: a group of accomplished academics that were simply immersed in 271 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: a twenty year old social experiment. Talked about a longitudinal study. Yeah, 272 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: oh man, see I like that one that was like 273 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: that one makes everything okay to me as long as uh, 274 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: they're actually not hurting the kids. But it sounds like 275 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: they were, I guess neglecting them. Wouldn't you say? Social experiment? 276 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: It's such a broad thing, but at least you'd get 277 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: something out of it. I guess stuff. They don't want 278 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: you to know. A social experiment, you know what, You're right, 279 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: it is a social experiment, no matter what, with guaranteed 280 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: no abuse. Luckily right. So there's another aspect to the 281 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: closure of this investigation. This is a seed we want 282 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: to plant. Rumors circulated that after US Customs got involved 283 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: in the case, which will explore in a moment, UH, 284 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: the CIA or another intelligence agency stopped the investigation and 285 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: claimed did it become an internal matter for the agency 286 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: and this this rumor was later confirmed to be true 287 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: from US Customs reports themselves primary sources. Let's hold that 288 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: in our minds for a moment, and let's explore the 289 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: mysterious man known as Marry and Petty, alternately known as M. D. Petty, 290 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: the game Caller, as you said, no, the Stroller, the 291 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: game Leader, the pathfinder, and the student. He was the 292 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: leader of the Finders group from the nineteen sixties to 293 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: his death around two thousand and three, and it appears 294 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: that he would send members of the Finders on various 295 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: projects and referred to these projects as games. There's a 296 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: book by a former member of the organization called The 297 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: Game Caller, which you can find online, and according to 298 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: this book, Petty had an extremely tight grip on the 299 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: dynamics of the organization. Former members felt that this man 300 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: could truly see into their souls sort of a metaphysical 301 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: X ray vision with his knowledge of Eastern mysticism and 302 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: his concepts of a new age of living. So in 303 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: a way they did have um, I guess some some 304 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: feminist architecture to their thought process. I believe that women 305 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: never men should initially relationships because Petty told them so, 306 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: and that children should be raised quote like Indians on 307 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: the planes, strong and tough. They wanted independent thinkers, right, 308 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: not somebody just parenting multiplication tables or capitals of states. 309 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: But in reality, what this turned out, what this ultimately 310 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: resulted in was a situation wherein children would be raised communally, 311 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: but taking care of the kids was considered the grunt work. 312 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: So a lot of people would say, you know, you 313 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: would feel like everybody's having a party, but you're the 314 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: ones stuck washing the dishes, Which is not the way 315 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: you should think about child care. It is just from experience, 316 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: it's the way it feels. Sometimes sometimes it feels that way, 317 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: but uh, you're absolutely right, that is not how it 318 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: should be viewed. I need you to watch the kid 319 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: because I'm going out to the discotheque. Oh you're going 320 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: to the discotheque again. There's a panic at the disco. Okay, fine, 321 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: there's no panic at the disco. Everyone chill at the disco. 322 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: There's a panic at the disco. Someone watched the Kid 323 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: for me. Well, you guys go have your exciting chill 324 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: panic and I'm just gonna play Silly Beast for hours 325 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: on end. I like chill panic. That that sounds. That 326 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: feels like a very British emotion. Yes, exactly, Uh so 327 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: it's It's true though this this group experimented with the 328 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: concept of communal parenting. For lack of a better phrase, 329 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: and interviews with former members and associates of the group, 330 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: um LAD law enforcement to believe that at its peak, though, 331 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: around forty or so followers actual long time followers. Because 332 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: this this group did practice an open house kind of 333 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: thing where you could walk in from any backgrounds right, 334 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: any socio economic status, demographic, former job, whatever, you could 335 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: go in there and hang out with them. A lot 336 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: of people we find were turned off by this because 337 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: the finders emphasized doing work, playing their games as the 338 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: game caller directed them, and staying away from drugs. So 339 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: someone's living on the fringe, living on the grift, they 340 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: go in to get some free food, and then they're like, wait, 341 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: I can't even do mushrooms here, like no, and you 342 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: have to participate in our conversations about social constructs. I 343 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: know that sounds like yeah, give me, I'll take man's 344 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: in any day. That's it's apparently that's that's not an 345 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: infrequent occurrence. Well yeah, and the other thing is the 346 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: complexity of their I guess overall belief system seemed to 347 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: also turn off some people, right, yeah, yeah, it's a 348 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: it's weird because there wasn't really an introductory course. You're 349 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: just immedia arrests. You're in the middle of the story. Know, 350 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: there's just no dionetics. It's straight to cleaning out the 351 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: theeton's can we say that? Yeah? Of course. Where is 352 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: David ms Kevidge's wife, Ah, man, I swear I saw her. 353 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. We should ask David that, we should 354 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: ask the finders that's right there finding stuff. Probably not. 355 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: She's likely in a ditch somewhere like a quarry. Well, 356 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: according to l A p D. Shelley ms Kovidge was 357 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: contacted years ago and said that she was fine. Yeah, 358 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: she did that. That's according to the Los Angeles Police Department. 359 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: And it's true that the Finders did have, as you said, Matt, 360 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: this very complex belief system that was pretty intimidating to 361 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: new members or would be initiates. And at this time, Uh, 362 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: the game leader is about sixty six years old and 363 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: reportedly has a tunefull Southern accent, which I thought you 364 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: would appreciate, Matt. That's great. It's very much a yawler. 365 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: Wait do you think he was the Zodiac? I don't know. No, 366 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: that's Ted Cruise. Oh he's in Tennessee. All right, we're good. 367 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: He must be too. He was probably pretty busy, but 368 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: maybe he sends other people out. I mean, what is 369 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: a game? Have you guys got to the part of 370 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: Monster where it's Ted Cruise yet? Yes? Sorry spoilers, we're 371 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: going to talk about that. That's the finale. That's like 372 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: the end of Usual Suspects. Yeah. We shouldn't mention that. 373 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: We really shouldn't. I mean, gosh, the guy I was 374 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: born in nine. You gotta listen to the show, folks. 375 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: It's free wherever you find your favorite podcast. Yeah, there 376 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: we go, smooth plug, smooth plug. So, speaking of these 377 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: strange arcane things, right, these communities on the fringe, Uh, 378 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: these bizarre theories, right, the tech crews thing is, you know, 379 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: at this point a theory sure, despite the overwhelming mass 380 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: of evidence, yes, but despite the inability via time. Okay, 381 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: all right, man, I'll play reindeer games. But off air, okay, 382 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: only could he be the Zoa killer if he was 383 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: killing people before he was even conceived, or if there 384 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: were more than one killer. So you mean he came along, 385 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: was born, and then within his first year killed someone, know, 386 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: someone taught him what to do. Look sort of like 387 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: the monkey and that I ground post story. Yeah, there 388 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: we go, only a baby. Yeah, okay, so he went 389 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: through time, was taught how to murder prior to be, 390 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, getting into this plane of existence. So we're 391 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: saying that I know that it must be irritating to 392 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: you to hear to hear us tell you tell you, 393 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: of all people about the Zodiac murders. But as we 394 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: talked about off air, as the three of us talked 395 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: about off air, Ted Cruz's birthday is allegedly after the 396 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: first two murders. Okay, So again, let's say he was 397 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: born five years before the murders. Why did I do? 398 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: What did I do? What's the five year old killing 399 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: a cab driver named Paul stun Like I said, murders 400 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: of the room Morgue style. He was taught as a baby. 401 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: You could teach a baby to kill the smart man. 402 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: Why are you being anti baby? Do you think children 403 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: are dumb? Have been feeling that Brian Hartnell or somebody 404 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: would have been like, yeah, that that kid wearing the 405 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: big Zodiac mask executions the biggest kid I've ever seen. Well, also, 406 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: going back to the idea of there being more than 407 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: one killer, how do you know it was not three 408 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: or four babies stacked Yeah, okay, you know I didn't. 409 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: I didn't take that into account, like wearing a trench coat. Yeah, 410 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: but now now I'm now, if I'm being completely objective 411 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: in treating this with the seriousness that deserves, you go 412 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: to the question of the arms, because truly, someone would 413 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: have reported the baby arms. He would have been called 414 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: the baby arm killer. And it well, you know it, 415 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: it does. It does account for the handwriting, It does 416 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: account for the hand It's like a child. I know, 417 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: this is a little bit of attention. This is possibly 418 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: the biggest tangent we've ever gone on. Oh no, no, 419 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: I don't know. We've had sebepic ones. But I do 420 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: want to say in all sincerity, it's a great show 421 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: and do check it out if you have a chance. Uh. 422 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: It is not filled with our terrible jokes about baby 423 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: about Texas U S. Senator Ted Cruz, who should be respected. 424 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: Man deserves your respect, he deserves your vote, is an 425 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: elected official. My favorite conspiracy theory about Ted Cruz is 426 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: that he is Eddie Munster as an adult. So, getting 427 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: getting back to getting back to the Finders, where did 428 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: this thing come from? Because some of us may have 429 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: noticed that I slipped in one very important detail, which 430 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: is that this organization dates back to the nineteen sixties, 431 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: and the commune evolved with things like the Human Potential 432 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: movement of the nineteen seventies had this huge emphasis on 433 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: shedding inhibitions and delusions. And most of the people who 434 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: talked about the Finder's Cult at the time were former members, 435 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: and they wanted to be anonymous because they were either 436 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: apparently they were either embarrassed about being associated with the 437 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: group or they were frightened of the possible reactions from 438 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: people who are still in the Finders organization and um 439 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: It was described as a twenty four hour sixty five 440 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: day a year training group for games. And this is 441 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: according to a guy who knew people in the organization 442 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: for years but was not ever himself actually in it. 443 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: He said it was like people who go to an 444 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: institute for a weekend, but this was for a year 445 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: or a lifetime, and these games were always changing. I 446 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: want to know more about the games, Yes we will. 447 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,239 Speaker 1: Oh man, you will be sick of the games in 448 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: a few minutes. It sounds like a D and D 449 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: boot camp or yeah, never ending larp. Yeah, exactly. So. 450 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: Because of these games or these projects, it was often 451 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: tough for people outside of the group to know when 452 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: the members were being sincere or when they were playing 453 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: out some strange Discordian uh for fans of the Illuminatus trilogy, 454 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: Discordian social experiment or their fantasy you know. And there's 455 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,239 Speaker 1: another complication because, according to the game caller himself, the 456 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: stroll or the students, the group doesn't exist. Yes, you see, 457 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: there's no such thing as a Finders It's just a group. 458 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: It's a term for people who like to hang around me. 459 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: Oh oh, I have a question, sure, and all seriousness, um, 460 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: if you recruit someone to join the Finder's cult, you 461 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: get a finder's fee. I feel like you're joking. Yes, 462 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's a good question. Now it's it's a 463 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: dumb question. But no, that's crazy. Is that? Where is 464 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: this quote from? It's from Mary and Petty. He said 465 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: the final group doesn't exist. There's there's just a group 466 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: of people who think I'm cool. That's hang out with 467 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: literally what it is though you just described, that's what 468 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: the is. He's at the center of a group that 469 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: like people that like to hang out with them. That's 470 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: what a cult leader is. So that leads us to 471 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: our next question, is this in fact a cult? We'll 472 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: find out right after a word from our sponsor. We're back. Okay. 473 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: So it's been a little bit tedious, I think at times, 474 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: for at least on my part, to keep saying the 475 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: organization or the group. But that's because information about this 476 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: group it was originally contradictory and it remains so today. 477 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: It is true the police did find photos of group 478 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: members and their children wearing white robes while slaughtering goats 479 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: at the group's farm in Virginia, But however, supporters and 480 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: critics of the group alike now agree that these strange 481 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: rights were an example of Petty's love for playing games 482 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: rather than an expression of pay again beliefs. And I 483 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: want to see what you guys think of this explanation. 484 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: So a former member of the Finders, who again asked 485 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: to be anonymous, explained the famous thing that they refer 486 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: to internally as the goat Gate as occurring because of 487 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: this reason, those goats were vicious, the group decided to 488 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: eat them rather than keep them as pets. To then 489 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: create a dramatic scene with robes and so on, was 490 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: to impress upon the kids the seriousness of killing an animal. Huh, 491 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: that's just like that's sort of one of those going 492 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: around your behole to get to your seahole kind of situations. 493 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting though, to me, I find something 494 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: in that to be almost genuine. Really like, yeah, killing 495 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: a goat, You don't think that's sort of like the 496 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: dude from Arrested Development who like is like the missing 497 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: arm and they use him to teach a lesson. You 498 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: don't think that's just comical and it's like extremity to 499 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: teach such a simple lesson. Well, I could see that 500 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 1: it is, but I see that for sure. But I 501 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: also see, uh, the you know, the ancient practice of 502 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: killing animals for our food that humans have been doing 503 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: since we've been able to carry a weapon or even 504 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, attack something with our bare hands. Um, knowing 505 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: that at least knowing that this thing has life and 506 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: it is giving us further life. That's that old, old, 507 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: old belief. I can imagine trying to honor that in 508 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: some way, if you truly are going to kill one 509 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: of these goats that you've had on your property, on 510 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: your farm, or wherever it is that you're existing, Um, 511 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: trying to impart that knowledge, that ancient knowledge onto these 512 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: children by having a ceremony. I could see that, thinking, yeah, yeah, 513 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: it's I think the way they explain it sounds contradictory, 514 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: like what was that? You know? It sounds like they're 515 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: going from their b hole to get to their seahole, 516 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: but also sounds like they're being a bit a hole 517 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: about it, you know, because they're they're easier ways to 518 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: explain that. As Patch Adams, the American physician, points out, 519 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: he knew Mary and Petty pretty well, there's another phrase 520 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: for this, and it's not It's not a Satanic ritual. 521 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: It's farming. You know what. I mean it's ranching Patch Adams. 522 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: It was this guy's buddy, as portrayed by Robin Williams 523 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: in the delightful children's Filmses Hunter Doherty, Patch Adams. I can't. 524 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: I feel like you buried the lead on this. This 525 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: is crazy. He just has some input on it. Yeah, Uh, 526 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: primarily because he thought the press was getting carried away 527 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: with their reporting of this due to that aforementioned satanic panics. 528 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: So he came to his aid in some respects, I 529 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: would asked about it and helped the kids hopefully. Well 530 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: that's right that I don't know. I know, I don't. 531 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to gamble on speculation there. I don't know. 532 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: It would be nice Patch Adams cheese, It would be nice, 533 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 1: Dr Adams. Um. But here's the thing. You'll notice that 534 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: we're we're adding stuff in defense of this group, and 535 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: then we're saying but also we're just alternating back and forth. 536 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: So here's our new But also it turns out the 537 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Finders had a history of run ins with the law 538 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: and multiple times. Yeah, there's a former Finders Finders member 539 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: who said that members of the group used uh calls 540 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: like I guess a cold call of some sorts and 541 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: letters in a campaign you could call harassment against Arlington 542 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: County Juvenile Court Judge Andrew Ferrari awesome name in three 543 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: when Ferrari ruled that a child of the former member 544 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: should be separated from the family and placed in a 545 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: group home. So the whole thing came about when I 546 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: guess a child was going to be taken away from 547 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: the group right, and this guy Ferrari was like, yeah, 548 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: that's that's what we should do. Ferrari said that he 549 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: received calls in his office and his home from several 550 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: members of the group we're talking about the finders here, 551 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: and uh, these members would argue that the child was 552 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: being in some way deprived of his freedom. And you know, 553 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: in a way, I guess kind of that kind of 554 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: is happening. But it's the um it's the job a 555 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: lot of times of these courts to make sure that 556 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: the child's best interest is thought of right and not 557 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: of the family. And this whole concept of depriving the 558 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: child of his freedom. But anyway, the the judge said, 559 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: they didn't threaten me. The attitude was, how could you 560 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: be so unconstitutional, which again like almost has a point. Again, 561 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: that's not illegal, either you know, to express your dislike 562 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: or your disagreement with a particular policy or a case decision. However, 563 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: it is harassment level, it could be harassment. It was 564 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: on the level that occurred here. And the explanation from 565 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: the Finders is not particularly satisfactory because in some cases 566 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: they tried to say that they were using humor as 567 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: a as an approach. They have an emphasis on stuff 568 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: that they consider humorous, which I don't think a lot 569 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: of people would agree with. But but beat as it may, 570 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: they did. They did have a harassment campaign with that 571 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: one guy, Judge ferrari Uh. They also had another case 572 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: in Colepepper, Virginia, lawyer obtained a court order preventing the 573 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: Finders from harassing them about a divorce case because he 574 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: when he represented a former member during that case. The 575 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: lawyer's name was John Davies, said the Finders had really 576 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: freaked him out using letters and phone calls. Then there 577 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: was a third case where another remember the group, said 578 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: his tires were slashed after he broke up with the 579 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: their whole shenanigan. He quit the game. Cults don't take 580 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: kindly to being broken up with, sort of like leaving 581 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: the mob or something. You know, yeah, always a member, 582 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: we're getting or not ever. I mean you can the 583 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: doors always open one way right there, like Hotel California, 584 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: like yeah. But one member described this as less of 585 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: a cult and more of an organization that started for 586 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: dropout professionals who just didn't know what to do with 587 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: their lives. Said, I've got my job, got my my spouse, 588 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: by two point five kids, and I see the rest 589 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: of my life playing out in a very predictable way. 590 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: I'm not happy. Let me go do something else. But 591 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: according to this member, as utopian as this original ideal 592 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: was eventually soured and the organization took a bad turn 593 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen eighties. There was a person who 594 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: was a second in command of the group named Barbara Sylvester, 595 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: and when she was in her forties in nineteen eighties, 596 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: she died at the Finder's house after she did not 597 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: receive any medical assistance for pendicitis, and this apparently made 598 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: the student the game caller um very gloomy, and there 599 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: was a shift, a fundamental shift in the tone of 600 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: the group. So the Finders became increasingly secretive and hostile 601 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: and arrogant toward outsiders, non members, and that's according to 602 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: some former associates, members engaged in long self criticism sessions, 603 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: exposing painful emotional inadequacies to the group. Members even cut 604 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 1: themselves off from seeing relatives and friends, which is typical 605 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: called like behavior. Um and former associates found themselves shunned 606 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 1: or treated brusquely if they left the group. Like we said, 607 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: it's very hard to extricate yourself from these kind of situations. 608 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: You get treated brusquely. Now, brusquely, that's not nice. That's 609 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: your vocabulary word for the day. It is. I mean, 610 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: it basically means they were a little short with you, 611 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: that's right, you know, communicating in monosyllabic texts like with 612 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: an angry girlfriend, or they were terse another vision. Yeah, 613 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: it's true. And that's something that's unfortunately common in a 614 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of groups that people would describe 615 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: as cults, and in some groups would be considered more 616 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: mainstream religions. You know, if you're if you're out, you 617 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: are no longer part of the society, and you are 618 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: treated as an outsider. You're but a squirrel. Oh nice, 619 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: I see your reference. We are doing pretty well with 620 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: these callbacks and references here. I you know, if you 621 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: if you were catching some of those things were throwing, 622 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: we appreciate it. So so let's look at the problem 623 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: of child abuse. Was this a series of genuine events 624 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: or was this a another victim of the moral panic 625 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: that was paralyzed in the US at the time. There 626 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,919 Speaker 1: are abuse allegations, and the core of these abuse allegations 627 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: can be traced back to that some of those US 628 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: Customs documents, one filed by Ramon J. Martinez. He says, 629 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: and there's a long passage here that we can paraphrase. 630 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: He says that he was able to execute a warrant 631 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: at one of their houses, and upon execution that warrant, 632 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: he had the run of the entire building. He found 633 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: several people on the premises, but only one was definitely 634 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: connected with the finders. The other people were just sort 635 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: of layabouts. And he found a room equipped with several computers, printers, 636 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: and tons of documents and paperwork. Uh. And here's what 637 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: he said he found in the paperwork. Quote. Cursory examination 638 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: of the documents revealed detailed instructions for attaining children for 639 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: unspecified purposes. The instructions included the impregnation of female members 640 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: of the community known as the finders, purchasing children, trading 641 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: and kidnapping children. Uh, that's not all they found. They 642 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: also found telex messages using m c I account numbers 643 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: between a computer terminal that was believed to be located 644 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: in the same room and others across the country and 645 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 1: in foreign nations. One of these telexes again this, according 646 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: to Martinez, specifically ordered the purchase of two children in 647 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: Hong Kong to be arranged through a contact with the 648 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: Chinese embassy. M c I, by the way, was an 649 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: old telecom company. Does anybody remember m CIS. Don't they 650 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: make a T M S. I don't know they used to. 651 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they went away, and I think no, I'm 652 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: thinking of m c R. That's not the same as 653 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: m c I. N c R is still around and 654 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: they make they make automatic teller machines. It's with a T. 655 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: M stands for him. Yeah, they were, Yeah, they were 656 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: involved in the regulatory changes that led to the breakup 657 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: of A T and T. That's right, right, that's right. 658 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: And Uh, forever, no matter how long n c R 659 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: is an actual company, it will always stand for New 660 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 1: California Republic for in my mind because of the Fallout 661 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: series anyway, that's right, right, Yeah, I love the Fallout callbacks. 662 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: It's a great game. So I know several of us 663 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: listening are saying, hey, this is not the Mandela effect. 664 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: You did mention that the CIA apparently closed down the investigation. 665 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: Are the Finders? Um? Are the Finders an organization that 666 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: is associated with intelligence and espionage and spycraft and psy 667 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: ops and purchasing children and human trafficking. Yeah, this is 668 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: a fairly common allegation. We run into with a lot 669 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: of splinter religious or spiritual movements like Jim Jones and 670 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: the People's Temple. Right is, there's some very strange governmental 671 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: connections there. In the case of the Finders, we initially 672 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: would say, why would the CIA become involved with some 673 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: fringe commune group. The answer to that is pretty apparent, 674 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: especially if it's a product of the nineties, sixties and seventies. 675 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,399 Speaker 1: They were concerned about possible disruptions to the status quo 676 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: and this, look, this sounds like crazy Big Brothers stuff 677 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: that happened with cointelpro. It sounds distant, like it's a 678 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,919 Speaker 1: footnote in the recent past. But people are being try 679 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: by the government for being vegan. Now. It's like William 680 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: Faulkner said, the past isn't over. It's not even past. 681 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: We are living through the same things. It's just a 682 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: matter of time before a lot of that stuff gets declassified. 683 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: So it's not crazy that the CIA would show interest 684 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: in some fringe commune group. According to Petty, government investigators 685 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: tailed him for at least four years back in the 686 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. At first they thought maybe he was a 687 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: big time drug dealer, not because he was around a 688 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: lot of drugs, but because he never actually used any drugs, 689 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: and so they thought, you know, Heisenberg style, the legit 690 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,359 Speaker 1: people don't mess with their own product, right, and they're 691 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: doing some weird things that these people seem so odd, 692 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: and how are they subsisting? Must be drug Yeah, And 693 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: then they decided, if it's not drugs, he must be 694 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: an active front operation for the CIA. So the CIA 695 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: got contacted. They ran his name through a database and 696 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: they said, nope, he's not one of ours. And this 697 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: irritated the heck out of the investigators. According to Petty, 698 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: one of the investigators said, you know, I've been working 699 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: on you for four years, and I can't figure out 700 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: what you're doing. What the hell are you doing? I'm 701 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: playing some games. They're detective, just playing some games. Mr 702 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: spy Man and a cat and mouse kind of situation, 703 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: you know it. I'm just you know, throwing the dice 704 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: and see if I can get a critical D and 705 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: D reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also known as Cretty now 706 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: ye rolling, he is named after He has taken that 707 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: appellation due to his love of dn D. That's most 708 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: of his songs are metaphors for various D and D situations, 709 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 1: and all of his albums are based on previous campaign 710 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: that he has conducted with his dn D group. I'm 711 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,919 Speaker 1: just gonna believe you. Hey, you know what, you could 712 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: google it? No, yeah, seriously, all right, I'm gonna do 713 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,799 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do that right after this from our 714 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: Oh note it's not another sponsory. Okay, let's keep going. 715 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: Like his twenty two track double album Forever as a 716 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: mighty long time think about it, Matt oh, it's a king. Yeah. No, 717 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: I get he's talking about being like exiled, and you know, 718 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: when you're out of play, when you're exiled, you're you're 719 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,959 Speaker 1: basically off the game board and then you can only 720 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: be un exiled. You know. It's not like you can 721 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: come back from the graveyard. I get what he's saying. 722 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: The pieces come together, so so speaking in pieces coming together, 723 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: Petty was actually asked about this possible CIA connection in 724 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: one of his rare interviews, and we have his response, 725 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do my Petty voice. Yeah, I'm gonna do 726 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: him kind of more like Tom Petty. Oh dude, I'm 727 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 1: scared how you can do that. Tom Petty is a 728 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: man of many voices. I love his voice on King 729 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: of the Hill. Alright, p Tom Patty, by the way, 730 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: it seemed like a lovely man. Um. I just kept 731 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: open house to a lot of the counter intelligence and 732 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: intelligence people. Over the years. I've been reported to their 733 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: security officers probably plenty of times for trying to figure 734 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,839 Speaker 1: out what's going on in the world. I've tried all 735 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 1: my life to get behind the scenes in the CIA. 736 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 1: I sent my wife in as a spy to spy 737 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: on the CIA for me. She was very happy about it, 738 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: happy to tell me everything she found out. She was 739 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: in a key place, you know, with the records, and 740 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,359 Speaker 1: she could find out all these things for me and 741 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 1: my son. Worked for Air America, which was proprietary of 742 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: the CIA. There was some connections, but not to me personally. 743 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 1: I thought Jeanine Garofalo started Air America. I didn't know 744 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,240 Speaker 1: she had any CIA ties. Uh yeah, Are America actually 745 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: was front that he got that right, Yeah, that's true. 746 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: They were responsible for substand full amounts of illegal drugs 747 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: entering the country. Yeah kidding, Yeah, not a radio program 748 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: or anything. It's a it was a air a flight company, 749 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: an airplane trip, having a company, an airline. It was 750 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: an aline I've never heard at. Yeah, it was operated 751 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 1: from nineteen fifty to nineteen seventy six. Is a CIA front, 752 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 1: and they would ferry over drugs and then you know 753 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: black bag, black budget cash. Well, I feel like a fool. 754 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: Thank you guys for it for a pointing out. Well, 755 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: it's just it's odd that he has that connection if 756 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: it's true. And also, lest I make Air America sounds 757 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: completely like a drug smuggling operation, which it was arguably is. 758 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: They also conducted military operations imposed his civilian air carriers. 759 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: But yes, Air America, it is true they were a 760 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: CIA front. He was aware of it in his interview 761 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 1: and just out and out saying that his son worked 762 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: for Air America makes me think that it's not true. Yeah, 763 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: just to be honest, if someone worked, I mean, those 764 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: are federal crimes. Yeah, and he says it as an 765 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: aside at the end, like oh yeah, and that happened 766 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of And I'm not saying he's a 767 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,839 Speaker 1: cult leader, to be fair, but quite a few cult 768 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: leaders engage in that sort of tactic, that rhetorical tactic 769 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: of name dropping things casually. You know. It's like, well, 770 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: it's it's like my friend Deepak Chopra always says, you 771 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: should give me money, you know what I mean. That's 772 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,760 Speaker 1: a terrible example. And I'm sure that Deepak Choper doesn't 773 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: talk that way. But that's how cult leaders manipulate people. Yeah, 774 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: he it's a big upping of sorts. Um, me and 775 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: my group were important, we're doing big things. But we 776 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 1: found out we found another quote from another writer that 777 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: showed that, uh maybe this, uh this really is just 778 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of non sense. Yes, according to Wendel Minick, 779 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 1: the author of Spies and Provocateurs and Encyclopedia of Espionage 780 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: and Covert Action, the Finders would love you to think 781 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: they're a CIA front, but I would say they're really nothing. 782 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 1: You're going to hear a lot of bullshit on the 783 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,879 Speaker 1: finders because they lie. These are dysfunctional adults, but they're 784 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: all working their asses off. They're constantly working on some project. 785 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: If you have a cult, the best way to control 786 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: people is to keep them busy, which is true, to 787 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: keep their minds occupy. If you have people standing around 788 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:43,440 Speaker 1: doing nothing and they start thinking. Well, it's also true 789 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,800 Speaker 1: that um Petty says that he is intensely studied the CIA. 790 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: He says that it's it's not that the CIA is 791 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: working with him or investigating him, so he's fascinated by them, 792 00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: which also sounds a little bit self aggrandizing. Right, So there, 793 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 1: there we have it. This is weird. This is a weird, 794 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,799 Speaker 1: weird bag of badgers, and it looks like it's gonna 795 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,399 Speaker 1: disappear from the news because the CIA did shut down 796 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: the investigation for one reason or another, at least that 797 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: is until nineteen nine three when the Justice Department says, uh, 798 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,879 Speaker 1: like six years later, yeah, and it was because they 799 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,480 Speaker 1: they found unresolved matters when in relation to the group. Right, 800 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: And this guy Tom Lewis, who was a representative from 801 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,480 Speaker 1: Florida elaborated, UM, could our own government have something to 802 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: do with this Finders organization and turn their backs on 803 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,000 Speaker 1: these children? That's what all the evidence points to. He 804 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,240 Speaker 1: went on to say that, and there's a lot of evidence. 805 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: I can tell you this. We've got a lot of 806 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: people scrambling and that wouldn't be happening if there was 807 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: nothing here. And then also if you look to the U. 808 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,360 Speaker 1: S News, this is a this is a source, right, 809 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: the U. S News, Um, they said that some of 810 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,600 Speaker 1: the Finders, at least according to US source that was 811 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,759 Speaker 1: in an article in the OST News. Uh. They said 812 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 1: that some of the Finders were listed in the FBI's 813 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: classified counter intelligence files. And then later all investigations into 814 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,160 Speaker 1: the Finders were ordered stopped by the Justice Department. That's 815 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,400 Speaker 1: the big player, um, as the case was determined to 816 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 1: pretty much be a national security matter. We've heard that before, right, 817 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: and uh it was referred back to the CIA again, 818 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: So that's weird. Right. Also, Also we have to point 819 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: out the hazard of anonymous sources. We talked about this 820 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:37,879 Speaker 1: in past episodes. Oftentimes an anonymous source is not what 821 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,799 Speaker 1: it implies itself to be. Like for instance, when there's 822 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 1: military news from anonymous sources. It's often leaked by the 823 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be keeping that secret because 824 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 1: they want to signal something, usually not to the domestic audience, 825 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: usually to a foreign audience. So somebody might be saying, well, 826 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 1: I can't report this on the record because you know, 827 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,440 Speaker 1: the army doesn't want you to know that we have 828 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,399 Speaker 1: these active weapons in this part of the theater. Right, 829 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: But that person, that anonymous source is like employed by 830 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,920 Speaker 1: the general, and the general said, you know, make sure 831 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,359 Speaker 1: this gets out. Yeah, let it. Let those guys know, 832 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: let them know they're not the only ones that can 833 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: cause headaches in Vertigo with sonic based weapons. We just 834 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: we need to we need to uh wave a flag 835 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 1: real quick, right, yeah, totally. So it could be the 836 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 1: source is just making things up, absolute bologney. It could 837 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,280 Speaker 1: even be a member of the Finders playing an elaborate game, 838 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,120 Speaker 1: a social project. Maybe it's another prank. Whoa, I never 839 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:46,320 Speaker 1: even thought of that. Maybe Petty himself, through a proxy, 840 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: spread this idea of the return of the CIA. But 841 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,280 Speaker 1: we do know, according to the customs documents, the CIA 842 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,240 Speaker 1: did it did go in there once. And this leads 843 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 1: us to um the weird inclusion or wrap up. So 844 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: in later years, the Finders moved to a town called Culpepper, Virginia. 845 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,400 Speaker 1: They became known for their eccentric activities. They walked around 846 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 1: they you know, they spent a lot of time there. Uh. 847 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,359 Speaker 1: They owned an old theater and they were best known 848 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,080 Speaker 1: for uh writing bizarre messages on the old theater Marquis. 849 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,520 Speaker 1: Remember we mentioned the Marquis at the beginning of the episode. Well, 850 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 1: boom boom boom. Now it paid off. These were not 851 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,080 Speaker 1: your typical messages. There were there were things that were 852 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,800 Speaker 1: kind of funny, like free money. There were things that 853 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: didn't make much sense, like spycraft, a great game where 854 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,440 Speaker 1: your money is there is your life and love m hm. 855 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,520 Speaker 1: And they they go on uh for years doing this 856 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And Petty lives there. He's pretty comfortable. 857 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:54,320 Speaker 1: He strolls around town just seeing what's up, sending people 858 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 1: to games. And then after his death in either two 859 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 1: thousand three or two thousand four, the group, which may 860 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: have continued in some way, largely disappeared from the news 861 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: from the media, and most reputable sources currently agree that 862 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,359 Speaker 1: the Finders were more an experimental community made for their 863 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: own amusement. Instead of being nefarious or sinister, they were 864 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,200 Speaker 1: eccentric and weird and having fun. And if that is 865 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,399 Speaker 1: the case, and they're not hurting anybody, we cannot and 866 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:29,920 Speaker 1: should not um detigrade people for living life as they 867 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: wish to live it, as long as they're not abusing children. Right. 868 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,759 Speaker 1: And however, despite all that, despite all that, which is 869 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,000 Speaker 1: very fair on our part, it is still true that 870 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 1: the CIA did intervene at least once in the investigation 871 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,440 Speaker 1: back in why we still don't know? That appears to 872 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,960 Speaker 1: be the stuff they don't want you to know all 873 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,239 Speaker 1: Why if you are a member of the Finders or 874 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,359 Speaker 1: if you've been a seated with them, we would love 875 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: to hear your take on this. Yes, please, do you 876 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: have a theater somewhere we could visit? We'd love to 877 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,120 Speaker 1: Are you from Culpepper, Virginia? Let us know have you 878 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 1: been through that part of the world. We would we 879 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: would like to hear your stories. Um, do you have 880 00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,800 Speaker 1: a story of a cult or maybe an experimental social 881 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,760 Speaker 1: club that you've been a part of that you'd like 882 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: to tell us a story about. We'll keep it anonymous 883 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,880 Speaker 1: if you want us to. Yeah, absolutely, you can reach 884 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,400 Speaker 1: us several ways. You can find us on Facebook, you 885 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter, you can find us on Instagram. 886 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: Our Facebook group is a great way to bring your 887 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: own perspective and feedback from the episode to your fellow listeners. 888 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: It's called Here's Where It Gets Crazy. Our Instagram is 889 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can see my own adventures and 890 00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 1: misadventures personally at Ben Bulling. You can check me out 891 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: at Embryonic insider Um, where I post pictures of nerdy 892 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 1: stuff like my cat and um occasionally my kid. And 893 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 1: you can find me at Kylie Jenner. That's just where 894 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: I like to post a lot of my makeup. You 895 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 1: are blowing up right now, my friend. I mean you 896 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of got more hits than you. I really don't care. 897 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 1: The egg is, you know, so yesterday whatever to Anyway, 898 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,200 Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of that stuff, 899 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,200 Speaker 1: you can give us a call. You can leave a 900 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: message and you might get on the show. Our number 901 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,520 Speaker 1: is one eight three three S T D t K. 902 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,240 Speaker 1: That's just an acronym for stuff they don't want you 903 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,520 Speaker 1: to know. You can figure that out to their actual 904 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 1: numbers involved if you wish to call, and if you 905 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 1: don't want to do any of that stuff, you can 906 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,440 Speaker 1: just send us a good old fashioned email. We are 907 00:58:39,640 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how stuff works dot com.