WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Through The Nothing 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.080 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.760 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. Listener 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:15.440 mail My name is Robert. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.720 Lamb and my name is Joe McCormick. And it's Monday, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.680 the day of each week that we read back some 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.759 messages from the mail bag. By the way, if you 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.960 have never gotten in touch with us before, but maybe 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.200 you've always wanted to, why not give it a try. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.800 You can email us at contact at stuff to blow 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.640 your Mind dot com. We accept all kinds of messages, feedback, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.400 thoughts on recent episodes, anything interesting you want to add 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:42.839 to a topic we've recently talked about, if you want 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.720 to suggest a topic for the future, If you have questions, corrections, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:48.559 any of the above, send them on in. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.000 Yeah. I mean you might think, well, my name's Jim 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.040 and I don't know if they need any more gems. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.840 Don't let that stop you. We can always use more gems. Yeah. 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.720 Our army of Jim's grows every mightier. Let's see, Rob, 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.920 do you want to kick things off today by reading 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.160 this message about minimal group paradigm, not from Jim but 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:08.640 from tim Ah. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:16.720 All right, let's do it. Tim Ride's high stuff to 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.200 blow your mind. Team obligatory mention that you guys are 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.760 doing an amazing job, because well you are. Thanks Tim, 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.560 Thank you, Tim. Tim continues The recent episode about the 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:29.000 minimum requirements for an in group out group bias to 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.160 take form took me back to many years of going 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.600 to and then helping run church youth camps. Oh Boy 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.400 campers would be divided into teams arbitrarily for many games. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:47.960 It always resulted in stiff competition and dogged tribalism if 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:52.000 the groups weren't mixed up every few games. This makes 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.200 me wonder if the in group preference, etc. Is stronger 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.920 at different stages of life. Maybe hormonal teams would show 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.040 the effect more strongly, with a tapering off in midlife, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.080 then more negative associations coming up again with the traditionally 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.240 stuffy old man yelling at kids to get off their lawn. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.320 But old Uncle John probably just had a bad temper 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.919 because of arthritis, not an in out group mentality against 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.640 the local scooter gang. Anyway, Thanks for stimulating some thought 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.280 and a touch of nostalgia. Keep up a good work, 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:24.480 regards Tim. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.120 Tim. This is a great point. I have no direct 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.160 evidence to this effect, at least not any you know, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.520 from scientific journals, but based on life experience, I would 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:39.760 strongly suspect that the in group out group rapid forming 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.799 paradigms would be that effect would be strongest among teenagers. 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.400 I don't know exactly why, but that feels true. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.280 Highly social creatures. I mean, I know we've in the 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.120 past on the show. It's probably been a long time 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.959 we've touched on some of the research about the teenage 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.080 brain and why the teenage brain is different. You know, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.919 why things of social value you have different weight in 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.480 the in the in the teenage brain. So, yeah, it's 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.200 the kind of research we might might have to come 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.080 back to at some point. I guess we'll come back 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.560 to it eventually, because when my son becomes a teenager 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.880 and I have to make sense of it all a 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:14.880 little all over again. 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:22.519 Yeah, teenage Homo sapiens are they're like socialization machines there. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.519 You know, that's where you're trying to find your place 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.000 in the world. And your place in the world means 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.760 a number of things, like finding what you're good at 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.240 and so forth, But maybe the most important of all 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.920 those categories of place finding is social place. What group 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:37.640 do you fit in. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.560 With yeah, Do I have a star on my belly? 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.280 Do not? Do I have a blue check mark? Do 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.920 I not? We're going to watch some of this play 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.000 out in real time. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.680 All right, Are you ready for some responses to our 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.520 episodes on childhood Amnesia? 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:52.560 Let's have it. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.080 Just to note, we've gotten a lot of feedback to 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.080 the series, so we're trying to read through as many 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.120 of them as we can, but there is a backlog, 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.280 so there are still a bunch we won't get to today, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.280 but we will try to keep reading them as the 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:15.520 weeks go on. So this first message comes from Joseph. Hey, guys, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.320 I'm playing a bit of catch up lately, and just 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.039 listen to your first episode on memory. I found the 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:25.120 episode fascinating since I have virtually zero memories of my childhood. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.599 Nothing at all springs to mind from zero to six. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.400 I guess ages zero to six, and I've spent an 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.520 hour or so trying to think of something. I was 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.359 talking with my wife and she easily rattled off a 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.520 dozen memories of preschool in kindergarten, and that seems like 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.279 the normal experience. I'm often aware of some differences in 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.799 the way I think and the way my brain works. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.039 But your podcast was really a very striking episode to me, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.400 as I'd never really considered how unique my experience might be. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.160 I was six when the first thing that I can 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.080 remember happened. I distinctly remember being in the office of 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.279 my father's business, finding everything to be much too loud, 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.279 and removing my hearing aid to place it on the 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.360 nearby countertop. I contracted bacterial meningitis when I was just 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.320 a few weeks old and was stricken deaf by the disease. 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.440 Not an unusual consequence. What is unusual is that over 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.880 time my hearing completely restored, and now I hear with 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.880 one hundred percent acuity. This is the first moment I 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.200 remember being able to hear, and also the first moment 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.960 I remember at all. I did some research and there 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.440 are some really fascinating angles in the development of autobiographical 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:40.560 memory in deaf children as well as neurodivergent children. I'm neurodiverse, 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.720 but not on the autism spectrum. Maybe you talked about 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.400 this in your second episode, so apologies if it's redundant, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.240 but I found it all very interesting, although not particularly satisfying, 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:54.400 as an explanation of my unique experience of autobiographical Memory. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.400 And then Joseph here includes a couple of links to 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.840 scientific papers, so I took a look. They were both 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.360 pretty interesting, so I dug up the citations and added summaries. 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.560 So the first one is a paper by Tiffany west 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.240 Weigel and Patricia Bauer published in the journal Memory in 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.039 the year two thousand. The title of the paper is 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:20.080 Deaf and Hearing Adults Recollections of Childhood and Beyond. So 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.680 this one investigated one of the ideas we discussed in 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.960 the series, the possibility that the horizon of earliest memories 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:33.120 may be influenced by differences in narrative socialization, sort of 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:37.599 the culture of autobiographical storytelling that the child grows up within. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:42.000 So if early formation of lasting memories is to some 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:47.800 degree dependent on exposure to adult patterns of storytelling for events, 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.520 then you would expect children who have later acquisition of 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.719 language itself to have later earliest memories. So the author's 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.240 right quote. In the present research, we tested the hypothesis that, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:05.039 by virtue of later exposure to language, individuals born deaf 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.520 to hearing parents will have earliest memories from later in 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:13.480 life relative to hearing individuals, and what did they find. Actually, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.320 the hypothesis was not supported. The age of earliest memory 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:22.840 did not vary between deaf children and children with typical hearing. However, 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.760 there were some interesting differences, so the core hypothesis was falsified, 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.560 but there were differences observed they write quote. Nevertheless, adults 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.520 who are deaf were found to have less dense representations 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.040 of early autobiographical memories and to include in their narrative 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:47.000 reports fewer categories of information, including visual spatial information, relative 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.360 to hearing adults. So I thought that was really really 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.320 interesting in this study. At least children with less early 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.680 exposure to language based narrative by virtue of the fact 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.679 that they were deaf children born to hearing adults don't 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.680 seem to have a different temporally different horizon of earliest memory. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.040 But their very earliest memories do seem to have less 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.000 elaborative detail in the words of some of the stuff 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.960 we were looking at in the series, and that includes 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.200 details that would not be affected by deafness itself. So, 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.480 at least on the surface, this is interesting but frustrating 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.400 right like it would appear to provide some evidence both 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.320 for and against the role of language and narrative culture 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:36.040 in establishing capabilities for early memory. There's some relationship between 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.960 these variables in the study apparent in those differences in 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.080 like the detailed density, but the average age of the 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.920 earliest memories were not significantly different. Now, the second study 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:51.319 that Joseph linked was about the earliest memories of people 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.880 on the autism spectrum. This was by zemashik at All 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.280 Vera zamashik at All, published in the journal Frontiers in 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.880 Psychiatry in twenty sixteen, called Earliest Memories of Individuals on 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:08.880 the Autism Spectrum assessed using online self reports. And I 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:10.800 was going to just read from the abstract here, but 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.520 I found that it relies on a specialized concept that 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:20.920 the authors call quote no events know no events versus 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.440 remember events. So I'm pulling a section from later in 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.840 the paper to define that difference. First, the authors write 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.440 quote when participants knew that an event occurred meaning in 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.480 their lives, but could not relive any details relating to it, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.800 these events are referred to as no events. These events 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.480 are based on external sources, such as photographs or stories 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.760 told by friends and family. In their description of the 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.520 no events, participants had to indicate the source of their memory, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:57.760 remember events our memories that are pure personal recollections specific 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.920 to time and place. These events could be relived by 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:06.520 the participant and relied on no other sources. So with 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.360 that in mind, the paper begins by observing conflicting accounts 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.960 in the literature. They say, on the one hand, quote, 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.480 autobiographical accounts by people with autism reveal vivid memories of 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.920 early childhood, and yet at the same time they say 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.080 that a lot of previous experiments have found that people 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:30.040 with autism quote have deficits in personal autobiographic memory compared 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.520 to people without autism. So to read from the abstract 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.760 here quote. To assess this contradiction empirically, we implemented an 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.400 online questionnaire on early childhood events to compare people on 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.880 the autism spectrum and non autistic people with respect to 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.840 their earliest autobiographical episodic memories and the earliest semantic no 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.880 event as told by another person. Results indicate that people 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.880 on the autism spectrum do not differ from non autistic 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.760 people in the age of their earliest no events, but 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.199 they remember events from an earlier age in childhood and 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.880 with more sensory details contradicting the assumption of an overall 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.840 deficit in personal episodic memory in autism. Furthermore, our results 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.720 emphasize the supporting influence of language for memory formation and 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.560 give evidence for an important role of sensory features in 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:28.280 memories of people on the autism spectrum. So I don't 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:29.920 know quite what to make of that, but I find 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.719 it interesting that you have these studies that have come 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:38.080 to completely opposite conclusions and results on that whether people 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.400 on the autism spectrum compared to people not on the spectrum, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.560 tend to have deficits in early childhood autobiographical memory or 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.440 have richer, more detailed memories, as this study seems to 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.120 find fascinating. 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.199 Yeah yeah, this is the angle I didn't even think about. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:00.720 Yeah yeah again huge thanks to Joseph for a fast email. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:01.439 Now. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.760 We also asked people about their own earliest childhood memories, 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.640 and especially if anybody had memories that they believed were 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:15.040 genuine from before the normal threshold of earliest memories that 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.960 is typically found of around you know, with some variations 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.160 three years old or three and a half years old. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.880 Some people wrote having apparently much older memories, or at 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.160 least so they believed, and one of them was Matt. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.480 Yeah. Matt writes in and says, hey, guys, I was 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.480 just listening to the first couple of your before you 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:42.000 could remember episodes and decided I would relay my earliest memories, which, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.200 should it be true, maybe the earliest you are likely 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.920 to come across before I do. I just want to 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.120 be clear that I will not be offended if you 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.240 should question any part of this memory and relate it 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.319 to anything from modified memories or even wholly false memories. Anyways, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.600 onto my memory, I remember visiting the doctor in my 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.280 early life, and during that visit, the doctor took out 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.680 a glass's case and took out a ballpoint pin, places 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.880 it against my heel and clicked it to draw blood, 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.080 and then pressed an index card against my bloody heel 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.800 to leave an imprint on several points along the card. 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.800 For further context, I first related this memory of my 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:22.439 mother when I was a teen, and she pointed out 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.280 the similarities to how the newborn blood spot test is performed, which, 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.880 should this be a true memory, would have happened when 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.760 I was approximately one week old. But anyway, for a 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.480 bit more insight and possible discussion, the specific details that 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.840 are most vivid in this memory are and then we 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.000 have a list here. First the ballpoint pen being one 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.480 of those generic white pins you might find at a 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.400 bank or insurance office with the company name printed on 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.120 the side. Secondly the characteristic lines of the standard three 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.600 y five index card, then the light pink color of 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.440 the walls in the room, and then finally a plant 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.880 in the corner of the room with fern like leaves 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.240 and matt notes. Not all of these are relevant to 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:04.880 the retelling of the story, but that's how they sit 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.040 in my memory banks. You can probably already see how 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.760 some of these details don't quite fit with what would 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.320 have been the literal reality of the situation believed to 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.839 be the source of this memory, but hopefully you can 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.880 also see how they might be connected via more common 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.360 substitutes with similar looking objects. Also, to be clear, I 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.680 did not concisely know of this test before relating the memory, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.000 nor was I led into it in any way that 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.320 I recall beyond talking about our earliest memories in general. Anyways, 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.920 did you know that the first official high five only 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.200 occurred in nineteen seventy seven during a Dodgers game. Love 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.840 what you are doing? And thanks for the stimulating audio 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.400 to help me with my long commute to work every day. Matt. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.600 Very interesting, Matt. I bet you're going to have people 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.040 who challenge you on the nineteen seventy seven Dodgers thing 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.160 your own personal first autobiographical memory. 0:14:58.280 --> 0:14:58.640 I don't know. 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.360 That's harder to fight people on. As we raise in 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.400 each of the issue episodes where we cover these emails, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.360 there are some reasons to be skeptical or critical about 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.880 what we believe to be our earliest memories, not because 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.320 people would be intentionally misrepresenting or anything, but just because 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.920 of the many ways that we know information that we 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.560 get from external sources can come to feel like genuine 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.920 firsthand memories to us, and we can't actually tell the difference. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.560 But this is very interesting because here you're at least 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.880 sort of like relaying a sense memory that you wouldn't 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.000 have had, at least you believe informational context to make 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.440 sense of, Like you wouldn't have known why you would 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.440 have a memory of a ballpoint pin and a card, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.560 but there actually was a medical test that would resemble 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.600 these types of objects. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.320 It actually reminds me of a very early childhood memory 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.240 that I have and I've never even inquired with my 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.880 mom like when this would be from. But I know 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.360 that it has some falsification in it or some combinations 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.640 going on here, because in it I in this memory, 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.000 I was taken to the doctor. I think it's just 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.680 like a check up or something as a as a 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:15.560 small child, and my doctor was clearly Gene Shallett, the 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.760 movie critic. Now, I I'm Gene Shallette was was in 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.640 no way my actual doctor. But what I suspect, Are 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:28.040 you sure? I'm I'm pretty sure, But I suspect that 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:32.080 my doctor maybe looked faintly like Geene Shallette, and I 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.960 would have seen Gene Shalatt on the television at some 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:39.440 point and it just became Gene Shalat in my memory 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.040 in this, you know, this very faint childhood memory. 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.000 I see. So Gene Shallett to your actual doctor is 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.520 similar to the relationship between Matt's idea of a ballpoint 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.440 pin versus the like sticker object that would be used 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.960 to pierce the skin for a blood test exactly. 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.760 Yeah. So yeah, I find these these exercises interruction. So 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.720 I really really appreciated this Matt, you know, providing us 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.120 these details to sort of like pick apart a little 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.240 bit as best you know, as best we can do, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.720 knowing what we do about about memory and how it works. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.200 This next email from Selena was really valuable because this 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.560 brings with it some professional expertise. All right, Note there 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.240 are just a few edits for lengthen here, but Selena 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.320 writes with regards to infantile amnesia. Similar to the hippocampal 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.960 learning theory, developing a language seems to be at least 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.239 one factor for when a person develops the skill of 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:47.960 recalling and describing past events. Doctor Francesca daily Espinoza has 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.120 given several presentations that relate to this. She has mentioned 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.520 that in her work with deaf children, if she taught 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.240 them sign language, it improved their ability to recall information 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.960 or phrasing and hopefully not totally off base in my summary, 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.560 she hypothesizes that pre language children have not yet developed 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:13.120 a self echoic verbal skill i e. Our inside voice 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:17.080 or self talk, which is why they recall much less 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.560 and less accurately than children who have learned a language. 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.000 In various experiments, she's found that disrupting the self echoic 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.760 in children who have developed a language affects recall accuracy, eg. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.919 Trying to learn or remember a phone number while someone 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:39.199 is saying random numbers out loud, because it prevents you 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:44.359 from quote hearing your self echoic repetition of the phone 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.159 number you're trying to remember. When working on recalling events, 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.800 she has used a phrase to describe how to teach 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.360 children to recall or to improve their recall by ensuring 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.520 that they are quote verbally present at the time the 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.960 event is occurring. The adult describes what is happening in 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.960 the present moment and prompts the child to describe what 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.119 is happening and or answer what, when, where type questions 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.479 about what is happening in the present moment to ensure 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.119 they are verbally present. This helps increase the salience of 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:21.200 what is happening and improves delayed recall. Oh that's very interesting. 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.720 I'd almost want to try that out. So, like, under 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.160 this idea, recall of information learned in a setting would 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.760 be better if during that setting you ask children like, 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.280 where are you right now? What are we doing, so 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.560 that they have a kind of yeah, have that like 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:41.760 verbal awareness of their immediate situation. Anyway, Selena goes on 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.639 to say, anecdotally, in my work with children as a 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.159 behavior analyst. The point at which autistic children who are 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:52.480 language delayed can recall events is strongly correlated with the 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.239 development of the verbal prerequisites mentioned by doctor Espinosa. The 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.680 information she presented was in the context of a presentation 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:05.720 at Penn State Conferences for Applied Behavior Analysis, which is 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:10.640 the acronym's ABA slash verbal behavior. Selena gives some caveats 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.600 about how she can't dig up specific references at the 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.320 moment totally understands Selena. She goes on to say language 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.680 development can happen at different times for kids slash. People 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.040 with different learning histories. If the hippocampal theory supposes recall 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:29.560 occurs after the hippocampus developed sufficiently, then in theory, adults 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.920 should be able to recall events regardless of having learned 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.160 a language. However, in a book called A Journey into 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.879 the Deaf World by Laine Hoffmeister in Bhan I believe 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.359 there are examples provided of deaf people who had no 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.920 functional form of communication until someone taught them sign language 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.000 at an adult age. Following the hippocampal theory, the adults 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.520 should be able to recall events from their pre language 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.840 adult lives, however, and sadly, their recall of life before 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:06.200 learning a language is largely unremembered, like having infantile amnesia 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.159 for most of their life until they learned to sign language. 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:14.040 What they could recall was extremely vague and more sensory 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.080 than specific details or events. And then she notes that 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.199 it's been over two decades since she read the book, 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.840 so recall is fuzzy about whether this was a single 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.800 case of a deaf person acquiring a sign language as 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.399 an adult or multiple cases. But anyway, Selena goes on 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.800 to say, the flip side of this might be what 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.280 if learning a language is one of the processes that 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:40.200 develops the hippocampus chicken or egg. Regarding the early memories 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.119 that are forgotten in adolescents, synaptic pruning probably plays a 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.639 major role. Use it or lose it. With regards to 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.600 what I can personally recalls my earliest memories, it's mostly 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.520 from kindergarten, although I have some memories from preschool. For example, 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.040 in preschool I used to make wishes on dandelions in 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:03.080 the grass during outside play periods. I can still remember 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:06.359 three of my wishes. They didn't come true. Oh well, 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.320 there are other events from my childhood that my parents 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.160 have described to me and I don't recall them. For example, 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.280 I was present when my sister uttered her first words, 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.159 but I have no personal memory of this event. Appreciate 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:23.760 the multi episode deep dives on topics. Thanks Selena, Oh, Selena, 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.480 what a fantastic email. Thank you so much. I love 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.200 it when people with direct expertise on something we talk 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.639 about get in touch to fill in things like this. 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.240 Yes, absolutely, this is a good one. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.919 Okay. We've got a bunch more messages about our series 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.560 on childhood amnesia to get to, but we're gonna have 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.040 to wrap it up there for today and finish off 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.480 with a couple of Weird House messages. We will try 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:52.440 to get to more of the memory responses in future episodes. Now, 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.000 to kick things off about Weird House Cinema, we got 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:58.639 a pronunciation note from our listener Carrie, in response to 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.480 the episode on the Never End Story where we make 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.640 reference to the other Wolfgang Peterson movie, the nineteen eighty 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.879 one film about a German submarine, and we pronounced the 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:17.679 title dos boot. Carrie informs us that while the German 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:21.440 word is spelled boot, it is pronounced the same as 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.359 the English word boat, so it's actually dos boat meaning 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.760 the boat. Carrie hate to break it to you, but 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.240 I think literally every English speaker I've ever heard make 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.920 reference to this film said boot. I don't know what 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.159 explains that. Maybe this is just something we do in 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.920 the anglophone world. We kind of like take an incorrect 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:46.080 pronunciation and just cement it. So I accept the correction 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.240 and appreciate it. But on the other hand, I would 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:50.960 say it's almost just the case that in the English 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.399 speaking world the movie is called dos Boot. 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.040 Yeah, it's kind of like that great Japanese horror movie 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:02.960 ring it right, and with dust boat or doss boot, 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.800 you know. Cisco and Ebert said boot. And I guess that, 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:08.320 you know, kind of gets stuck in your head. Now, 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.160