1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. Listener 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: mail My name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 3: Lamb and my name is Joe McCormick. And it's Monday, 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 3: the day of each week that we read back some 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 3: messages from the mail bag. By the way, if you 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 3: have never gotten in touch with us before, but maybe 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: you've always wanted to, why not give it a try. 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 3: You can email us at contact at stuff to blow 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. We accept all kinds of messages, feedback, 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 3: thoughts on recent episodes, anything interesting you want to add 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 3: to a topic we've recently talked about, if you want 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, If you have questions, corrections, 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 3: any of the above, send them on in. 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean you might think, well, my name's Jim 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: and I don't know if they need any more gems. 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: Don't let that stop you. We can always use more gems. Yeah. 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: Our army of Jim's grows every mightier. Let's see, Rob, 19 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: do you want to kick things off today by reading 20 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: this message about minimal group paradigm, not from Jim but 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: from tim Ah. 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. Tim Ride's high stuff to 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: blow your mind. Team obligatory mention that you guys are 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: doing an amazing job, because well you are. Thanks Tim, 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: Thank you, Tim. Tim continues The recent episode about the 26 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: minimum requirements for an in group out group bias to 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: take form took me back to many years of going 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: to and then helping run church youth camps. Oh Boy 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: campers would be divided into teams arbitrarily for many games. 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: It always resulted in stiff competition and dogged tribalism if 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: the groups weren't mixed up every few games. This makes 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: me wonder if the in group preference, etc. Is stronger 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: at different stages of life. Maybe hormonal teams would show 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: the effect more strongly, with a tapering off in midlife, 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: then more negative associations coming up again with the traditionally 36 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: stuffy old man yelling at kids to get off their lawn. 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: But old Uncle John probably just had a bad temper 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: because of arthritis, not an in out group mentality against 39 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: the local scooter gang. Anyway, Thanks for stimulating some thought 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: and a touch of nostalgia. Keep up a good work, 41 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: regards Tim. 42 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: Tim. This is a great point. I have no direct 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: evidence to this effect, at least not any you know, 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 3: from scientific journals, but based on life experience, I would 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: strongly suspect that the in group out group rapid forming 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 3: paradigms would be that effect would be strongest among teenagers. 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 3: I don't know exactly why, but that feels true. 48 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: Highly social creatures. I mean, I know we've in the 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: past on the show. It's probably been a long time 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 2: we've touched on some of the research about the teenage 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: brain and why the teenage brain is different. You know, 52 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: why things of social value you have different weight in 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: the in the in the teenage brain. So, yeah, it's 54 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: the kind of research we might might have to come 55 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: back to at some point. I guess we'll come back 56 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: to it eventually, because when my son becomes a teenager 57 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: and I have to make sense of it all a 58 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: little all over again. 59 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, teenage Homo sapiens are they're like socialization machines there. 60 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 3: You know, that's where you're trying to find your place 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: in the world. And your place in the world means 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: a number of things, like finding what you're good at 63 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: and so forth, But maybe the most important of all 64 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: those categories of place finding is social place. What group 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 3: do you fit in. 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: With yeah, Do I have a star on my belly? 67 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: Do not? Do I have a blue check mark? Do 68 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: I not? We're going to watch some of this play 69 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: out in real time. 70 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 3: All right, Are you ready for some responses to our 71 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 3: episodes on childhood Amnesia? 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: Let's have it. 73 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 3: Just to note, we've gotten a lot of feedback to 74 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: the series, so we're trying to read through as many 75 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: of them as we can, but there is a backlog, 76 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: so there are still a bunch we won't get to today, 77 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: but we will try to keep reading them as the 78 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: weeks go on. So this first message comes from Joseph. Hey, guys, 79 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: I'm playing a bit of catch up lately, and just 80 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: listen to your first episode on memory. I found the 81 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: episode fascinating since I have virtually zero memories of my childhood. 82 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: Nothing at all springs to mind from zero to six. 83 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 3: I guess ages zero to six, and I've spent an 84 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: hour or so trying to think of something. I was 85 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 3: talking with my wife and she easily rattled off a 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: dozen memories of preschool in kindergarten, and that seems like 87 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 3: the normal experience. I'm often aware of some differences in 88 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 3: the way I think and the way my brain works. 89 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 3: But your podcast was really a very striking episode to me, 90 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 3: as I'd never really considered how unique my experience might be. 91 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: I was six when the first thing that I can 92 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 3: remember happened. I distinctly remember being in the office of 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: my father's business, finding everything to be much too loud, 94 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: and removing my hearing aid to place it on the 95 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: nearby countertop. I contracted bacterial meningitis when I was just 96 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: a few weeks old and was stricken deaf by the disease. 97 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 3: Not an unusual consequence. What is unusual is that over 98 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: time my hearing completely restored, and now I hear with 99 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: one hundred percent acuity. This is the first moment I 100 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 3: remember being able to hear, and also the first moment 101 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: I remember at all. I did some research and there 102 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: are some really fascinating angles in the development of autobiographical 103 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: memory in deaf children as well as neurodivergent children. I'm neurodiverse, 104 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: but not on the autism spectrum. Maybe you talked about 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: this in your second episode, so apologies if it's redundant, 106 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: but I found it all very interesting, although not particularly satisfying, 107 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: as an explanation of my unique experience of autobiographical Memory. 108 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: And then Joseph here includes a couple of links to 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 3: scientific papers, so I took a look. They were both 110 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: pretty interesting, so I dug up the citations and added summaries. 111 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: So the first one is a paper by Tiffany west 112 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 3: Weigel and Patricia Bauer published in the journal Memory in 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: the year two thousand. The title of the paper is 114 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: Deaf and Hearing Adults Recollections of Childhood and Beyond. So 115 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: this one investigated one of the ideas we discussed in 116 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: the series, the possibility that the horizon of earliest memories 117 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 3: may be influenced by differences in narrative socialization, sort of 118 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 3: the culture of autobiographical storytelling that the child grows up within. 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: So if early formation of lasting memories is to some 120 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 3: degree dependent on exposure to adult patterns of storytelling for events, 121 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: then you would expect children who have later acquisition of 122 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: language itself to have later earliest memories. So the author's 123 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: right quote. In the present research, we tested the hypothesis that, 124 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 3: by virtue of later exposure to language, individuals born deaf 125 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: to hearing parents will have earliest memories from later in 126 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: life relative to hearing individuals, and what did they find. Actually, 127 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: the hypothesis was not supported. The age of earliest memory 128 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: did not vary between deaf children and children with typical hearing. However, 129 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: there were some interesting differences, so the core hypothesis was falsified, 130 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: but there were differences observed they write quote. Nevertheless, adults 131 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: who are deaf were found to have less dense representations 132 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: of early autobiographical memories and to include in their narrative 133 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 3: reports fewer categories of information, including visual spatial information, relative 134 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: to hearing adults. So I thought that was really really 135 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: interesting in this study. At least children with less early 136 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: exposure to language based narrative by virtue of the fact 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,679 Speaker 3: that they were deaf children born to hearing adults don't 138 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: seem to have a different temporally different horizon of earliest memory. 139 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: But their very earliest memories do seem to have less 140 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: elaborative detail in the words of some of the stuff 141 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: we were looking at in the series, and that includes 142 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 3: details that would not be affected by deafness itself. So, 143 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: at least on the surface, this is interesting but frustrating 144 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: right like it would appear to provide some evidence both 145 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 3: for and against the role of language and narrative culture 146 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: in establishing capabilities for early memory. There's some relationship between 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: these variables in the study apparent in those differences in 148 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 3: like the detailed density, but the average age of the 149 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: earliest memories were not significantly different. Now, the second study 150 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 3: that Joseph linked was about the earliest memories of people 151 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: on the autism spectrum. This was by zemashik at All 152 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: Vera zamashik at All, published in the journal Frontiers in 153 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: Psychiatry in twenty sixteen, called Earliest Memories of Individuals on 154 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: the Autism Spectrum assessed using online self reports. And I 155 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: was going to just read from the abstract here, but 156 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: I found that it relies on a specialized concept that 157 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 3: the authors call quote no events know no events versus 158 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 3: remember events. So I'm pulling a section from later in 159 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 3: the paper to define that difference. First, the authors write 160 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 3: quote when participants knew that an event occurred meaning in 161 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: their lives, but could not relive any details relating to it, 162 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: these events are referred to as no events. These events 163 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: are based on external sources, such as photographs or stories 164 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: told by friends and family. In their description of the 165 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: no events, participants had to indicate the source of their memory, 166 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 3: remember events our memories that are pure personal recollections specific 167 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: to time and place. These events could be relived by 168 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: the participant and relied on no other sources. So with 169 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: that in mind, the paper begins by observing conflicting accounts 170 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: in the literature. They say, on the one hand, quote, 171 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 3: autobiographical accounts by people with autism reveal vivid memories of 172 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: early childhood, and yet at the same time they say 173 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: that a lot of previous experiments have found that people 174 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 3: with autism quote have deficits in personal autobiographic memory compared 175 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: to people without autism. So to read from the abstract 176 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 3: here quote. To assess this contradiction empirically, we implemented an 177 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: online questionnaire on early childhood events to compare people on 178 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 3: the autism spectrum and non autistic people with respect to 179 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 3: their earliest autobiographical episodic memories and the earliest semantic no 180 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: event as told by another person. Results indicate that people 181 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: on the autism spectrum do not differ from non autistic 182 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: people in the age of their earliest no events, but 183 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 3: they remember events from an earlier age in childhood and 184 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: with more sensory details contradicting the assumption of an overall 185 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: deficit in personal episodic memory in autism. Furthermore, our results 186 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: emphasize the supporting influence of language for memory formation and 187 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: give evidence for an important role of sensory features in 188 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 3: memories of people on the autism spectrum. So I don't 189 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: know quite what to make of that, but I find 190 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 3: it interesting that you have these studies that have come 191 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: to completely opposite conclusions and results on that whether people 192 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: on the autism spectrum compared to people not on the spectrum, 193 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: tend to have deficits in early childhood autobiographical memory or 194 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: have richer, more detailed memories, as this study seems to 195 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: find fascinating. 196 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, this is the angle I didn't even think about. 197 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah again huge thanks to Joseph for a fast email. 198 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 2: Now. 199 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 3: We also asked people about their own earliest childhood memories, 200 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: and especially if anybody had memories that they believed were 201 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: genuine from before the normal threshold of earliest memories that 202 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 3: is typically found of around you know, with some variations 203 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: three years old or three and a half years old. 204 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 3: Some people wrote having apparently much older memories, or at 205 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: least so they believed, and one of them was Matt. 206 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Matt writes in and says, hey, guys, I was 207 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: just listening to the first couple of your before you 208 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: could remember episodes and decided I would relay my earliest memories, which, 209 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: should it be true, maybe the earliest you are likely 210 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: to come across before I do. I just want to 211 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: be clear that I will not be offended if you 212 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: should question any part of this memory and relate it 213 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 2: to anything from modified memories or even wholly false memories. Anyways, 214 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: onto my memory, I remember visiting the doctor in my 215 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: early life, and during that visit, the doctor took out 216 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: a glass's case and took out a ballpoint pin, places 217 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: it against my heel and clicked it to draw blood, 218 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: and then pressed an index card against my bloody heel 219 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: to leave an imprint on several points along the card. 220 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: For further context, I first related this memory of my 221 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 2: mother when I was a teen, and she pointed out 222 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: the similarities to how the newborn blood spot test is performed, which, 223 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: should this be a true memory, would have happened when 224 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: I was approximately one week old. But anyway, for a 225 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: bit more insight and possible discussion, the specific details that 226 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: are most vivid in this memory are and then we 227 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: have a list here. First the ballpoint pen being one 228 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: of those generic white pins you might find at a 229 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: bank or insurance office with the company name printed on 230 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: the side. Secondly the characteristic lines of the standard three 231 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: y five index card, then the light pink color of 232 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: the walls in the room, and then finally a plant 233 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: in the corner of the room with fern like leaves 234 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: and matt notes. Not all of these are relevant to 235 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: the retelling of the story, but that's how they sit 236 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: in my memory banks. You can probably already see how 237 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: some of these details don't quite fit with what would 238 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: have been the literal reality of the situation believed to 239 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 2: be the source of this memory, but hopefully you can 240 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: also see how they might be connected via more common 241 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: substitutes with similar looking objects. Also, to be clear, I 242 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: did not concisely know of this test before relating the memory, 243 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: nor was I led into it in any way that 244 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: I recall beyond talking about our earliest memories in general. Anyways, 245 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: did you know that the first official high five only 246 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: occurred in nineteen seventy seven during a Dodgers game. Love 247 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: what you are doing? And thanks for the stimulating audio 248 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: to help me with my long commute to work every day. Matt. 249 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: Very interesting, Matt. I bet you're going to have people 250 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: who challenge you on the nineteen seventy seven Dodgers thing 251 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: your own personal first autobiographical memory. 252 00:14:58,280 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: I don't know. 253 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: That's harder to fight people on. As we raise in 254 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: each of the issue episodes where we cover these emails, 255 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: there are some reasons to be skeptical or critical about 256 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: what we believe to be our earliest memories, not because 257 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: people would be intentionally misrepresenting or anything, but just because 258 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: of the many ways that we know information that we 259 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 3: get from external sources can come to feel like genuine 260 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: firsthand memories to us, and we can't actually tell the difference. 261 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: But this is very interesting because here you're at least 262 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: sort of like relaying a sense memory that you wouldn't 263 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: have had, at least you believe informational context to make 264 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: sense of, Like you wouldn't have known why you would 265 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: have a memory of a ballpoint pin and a card, 266 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: but there actually was a medical test that would resemble 267 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 3: these types of objects. 268 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: It actually reminds me of a very early childhood memory 269 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: that I have and I've never even inquired with my 270 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: mom like when this would be from. But I know 271 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: that it has some falsification in it or some combinations 272 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: going on here, because in it I in this memory, 273 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: I was taken to the doctor. I think it's just 274 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: like a check up or something as a as a 275 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: small child, and my doctor was clearly Gene Shallett, the 276 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: movie critic. Now, I I'm Gene Shallette was was in 277 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: no way my actual doctor. But what I suspect, Are 278 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: you sure? I'm I'm pretty sure, But I suspect that 279 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: my doctor maybe looked faintly like Geene Shallette, and I 280 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: would have seen Gene Shalatt on the television at some 281 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: point and it just became Gene Shalat in my memory 282 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: in this, you know, this very faint childhood memory. 283 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 3: I see. So Gene Shallett to your actual doctor is 284 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 3: similar to the relationship between Matt's idea of a ballpoint 285 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 3: pin versus the like sticker object that would be used 286 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: to pierce the skin for a blood test exactly. 287 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I find these these exercises interruction. So 288 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: I really really appreciated this Matt, you know, providing us 289 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 2: these details to sort of like pick apart a little 290 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: bit as best you know, as best we can do, 291 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: knowing what we do about about memory and how it works. 292 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: This next email from Selena was really valuable because this 293 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: brings with it some professional expertise. All right, Note there 294 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 3: are just a few edits for lengthen here, but Selena 295 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: writes with regards to infantile amnesia. Similar to the hippocampal 296 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 3: learning theory, developing a language seems to be at least 297 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,239 Speaker 3: one factor for when a person develops the skill of 298 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 3: recalling and describing past events. Doctor Francesca daily Espinoza has 299 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 3: given several presentations that relate to this. She has mentioned 300 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: that in her work with deaf children, if she taught 301 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 3: them sign language, it improved their ability to recall information 302 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 3: or phrasing and hopefully not totally off base in my summary, 303 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: she hypothesizes that pre language children have not yet developed 304 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 3: a self echoic verbal skill i e. Our inside voice 305 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: or self talk, which is why they recall much less 306 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: and less accurately than children who have learned a language. 307 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: In various experiments, she's found that disrupting the self echoic 308 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: in children who have developed a language affects recall accuracy, eg. 309 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: Trying to learn or remember a phone number while someone 310 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 3: is saying random numbers out loud, because it prevents you 311 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 3: from quote hearing your self echoic repetition of the phone 312 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 3: number you're trying to remember. When working on recalling events, 313 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 3: she has used a phrase to describe how to teach 314 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 3: children to recall or to improve their recall by ensuring 315 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 3: that they are quote verbally present at the time the 316 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: event is occurring. The adult describes what is happening in 317 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: the present moment and prompts the child to describe what 318 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 3: is happening and or answer what, when, where type questions 319 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 3: about what is happening in the present moment to ensure 320 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: they are verbally present. This helps increase the salience of 321 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: what is happening and improves delayed recall. Oh that's very interesting. 322 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 3: I'd almost want to try that out. So, like, under 323 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 3: this idea, recall of information learned in a setting would 324 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: be better if during that setting you ask children like, 325 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: where are you right now? What are we doing, so 326 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 3: that they have a kind of yeah, have that like 327 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: verbal awareness of their immediate situation. Anyway, Selena goes on 328 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 3: to say, anecdotally, in my work with children as a 329 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 3: behavior analyst. The point at which autistic children who are 330 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 3: language delayed can recall events is strongly correlated with the 331 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,239 Speaker 3: development of the verbal prerequisites mentioned by doctor Espinosa. The 332 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: information she presented was in the context of a presentation 333 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: at Penn State Conferences for Applied Behavior Analysis, which is 334 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: the acronym's ABA slash verbal behavior. Selena gives some caveats 335 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 3: about how she can't dig up specific references at the 336 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: moment totally understands Selena. She goes on to say language 337 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 3: development can happen at different times for kids slash. People 338 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: with different learning histories. If the hippocampal theory supposes recall 339 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 3: occurs after the hippocampus developed sufficiently, then in theory, adults 340 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: should be able to recall events regardless of having learned 341 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: a language. However, in a book called A Journey into 342 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 3: the Deaf World by Laine Hoffmeister in Bhan I believe 343 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 3: there are examples provided of deaf people who had no 344 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: functional form of communication until someone taught them sign language 345 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: at an adult age. Following the hippocampal theory, the adults 346 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: should be able to recall events from their pre language 347 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 3: adult lives, however, and sadly, their recall of life before 348 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 3: learning a language is largely unremembered, like having infantile amnesia 349 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 3: for most of their life until they learned to sign language. 350 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: What they could recall was extremely vague and more sensory 351 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: than specific details or events. And then she notes that 352 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 3: it's been over two decades since she read the book, 353 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: so recall is fuzzy about whether this was a single 354 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: case of a deaf person acquiring a sign language as 355 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 3: an adult or multiple cases. But anyway, Selena goes on 356 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: to say, the flip side of this might be what 357 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: if learning a language is one of the processes that 358 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: develops the hippocampus chicken or egg. Regarding the early memories 359 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: that are forgotten in adolescents, synaptic pruning probably plays a 360 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: major role. Use it or lose it. With regards to 361 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 3: what I can personally recalls my earliest memories, it's mostly 362 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 3: from kindergarten, although I have some memories from preschool. For example, 363 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 3: in preschool I used to make wishes on dandelions in 364 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: the grass during outside play periods. I can still remember 365 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 3: three of my wishes. They didn't come true. Oh well, 366 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: there are other events from my childhood that my parents 367 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 3: have described to me and I don't recall them. For example, 368 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 3: I was present when my sister uttered her first words, 369 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 3: but I have no personal memory of this event. Appreciate 370 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 3: the multi episode deep dives on topics. Thanks Selena, Oh, Selena, 371 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 3: what a fantastic email. Thank you so much. I love 372 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 3: it when people with direct expertise on something we talk 373 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: about get in touch to fill in things like this. 374 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, this is a good one. 375 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 3: Okay. We've got a bunch more messages about our series 376 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 3: on childhood amnesia to get to, but we're gonna have 377 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 3: to wrap it up there for today and finish off 378 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: with a couple of Weird House messages. We will try 379 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 3: to get to more of the memory responses in future episodes. Now, 380 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: to kick things off about Weird House Cinema, we got 381 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 3: a pronunciation note from our listener Carrie, in response to 382 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: the episode on the Never End Story where we make 383 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: reference to the other Wolfgang Peterson movie, the nineteen eighty 384 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: one film about a German submarine, and we pronounced the 385 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 3: title dos boot. Carrie informs us that while the German 386 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 3: word is spelled boot, it is pronounced the same as 387 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 3: the English word boat, so it's actually dos boat meaning 388 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: the boat. Carrie hate to break it to you, but 389 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: I think literally every English speaker I've ever heard make 390 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 3: reference to this film said boot. I don't know what 391 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 3: explains that. Maybe this is just something we do in 392 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 3: the anglophone world. We kind of like take an incorrect 393 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: pronunciation and just cement it. So I accept the correction 394 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: and appreciate it. But on the other hand, I would 395 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 3: say it's almost just the case that in the English 396 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 3: speaking world the movie is called dos Boot. 397 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like that great Japanese horror movie 398 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: ring it right, and with dust boat or doss boot, 399 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: you know. Cisco and Ebert said boot. And I guess that, 400 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: you know, kind of gets stuck in your head. Now, 401 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 2: in the Simpsons it was dos Butt. I don't think 402 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: there was supposed to be that was supposed to be 403 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: maybe a knockoff film. I had to look that one up. 404 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: That was in the episode New Kid on the Block. 405 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 2: That was a Conan O'Brien scripted episode. 406 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: Brilliant, but it's still appreciate the message, Kerry, thank you. 407 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: Now. We received some other listener mail regarding the Never 408 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 2: Ending Story episode of weird House Cinema, and yeah, I 409 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: don't think we're gonna be able to get to all 410 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: of those today either, but I wanted to read at 411 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: least one of them. This one comes to us from Maya. 412 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: Maya writes Sin and says, dear Joe and rot the 413 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 2: never Ending Story. I was that child that, from time 414 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: to time would lock herself up in her room for 415 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: a whole Sunday and read it cover to cover, almost 416 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 2: like an enactment of Bastion's Night in the School. I 417 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: was eleven when the motion picture was released, and by 418 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 2: that time I must have read it thirty times and 419 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: knew it by heart. I'm afraid to report that I 420 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: found the movie adaptation loathsome for me, both the characters 421 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: and Fantasia as was translated into Spanish were more somber, 422 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: stern and beautiful and German than anything that was betrayed 423 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: in the movie. Leaving the ending aside, my favorite chapters 424 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: were Lacking Zia Day and the Seeing Hand Castle Perilyn, 425 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: the Night Jungle, Miss and I don't remember how oh see, 426 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how this was pronounced, and and I'm 427 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 2: a little foggy on this chapter of Miss Aula and 428 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: her ever changing home. Come on anyhow, thank you for 429 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: featuring it as one of your Weird House Cinema episodes. 430 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 2: Through your eyes, I came to appreciate many features that 431 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: as a child felt like treason. Guess Michael Into himself 432 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 2: must have felt the same way, since he hated the movie. 433 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 2: By the way, you mentioned that Inda's father was a 434 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: surrealist painter, and it came to mind one of my 435 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: favorite Indo's books, The Mirror in the Mirror, a surrealist book, 436 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: if ever there was one. I strongly recommend it all 437 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: the best. Maya. 438 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: Oh thanks Maya. I don't even know what these references 439 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 3: Zayaday and the Seeing Handcastle not a clue. 440 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I do remember, I remember Zaida for sure. And 441 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: the Night Jungle. Yeah, there are a bunch of additional 442 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: little adventures, and there's some other paradoxes they encounter and 443 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 2: so forth. It's it's a great read. Again, I highly 444 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: recommend Michael Linda's The Never A Next Story. 445 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: In a strange way, this feels like a parallel universe 446 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 3: version of the nerd complaining about how they didn't put 447 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: Tom Bombadill in the movies. 448 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean the reading of a book 449 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: can can be very personal, and I do like that 450 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: this is This email also centers in on childhood reading 451 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: of books, which I've observed this with my own son, 452 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: whose name is also Bestia. When he reads the book 453 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 2: that he likes, he's very likely to want to read 454 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: it over and over again in ways that adults may not. 455 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: You know, there are books that I reread, but I 456 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: give them a little time and let my adult brain 457 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: forget most of them so that he can come back 458 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: and re experience it again. But there's there's kind of 459 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: this ritual to it sometimes with young readers. I think, 460 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: where yet you just have to read it again and 461 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: again to experience it again and again. It has maybe 462 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: a different way to reality to the reader totally. 463 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: I have exactly the same pattern. When I was a kid, 464 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 3: I used to reread books over and over. I sort 465 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: of stopped doing that as an adult. There have been 466 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 3: a few, but not nearly as many when I was 467 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 3: a kid. If I liked it, I'd read it five times. 468 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the gifts of adulthood is that you 469 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: get to You end up forgetting half the stuff happens, 470 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: even in a book you love, and then you're like, 471 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 2: oh man, this book is great, But I mean it's 472 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 2: always the case that, you know, kidding aside. You know, 473 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 2: a really great book speaks to you differently depending on 474 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: when you're reading it, and you're going to find things 475 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: that you didn't find the previous time. And you know that, 476 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: I think in my own experience there, you know, there 477 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: there are a few books that I definitely see this 478 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 2: end definitely Doomed by Frank Herbert. Every time I've read it, 479 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: it's spoken to me a little differently, and I suspect 480 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: it's that way with never ending story. I never read 481 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 2: it as a child, but it has that level of 482 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 2: depth to it that I feel like anytime you read it, 483 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: you're likely to get a different experience. You're can to 484 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: pick up on different things. There's stuff in there that's 485 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: very much for the child reader, there's stuff in there 486 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: for the adult, and there's probably stuff that you know 487 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: is intended to speak into in different ways to those 488 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: different audiences. 489 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 3: All right, well, thank you so much to everybody who 490 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 3: got in touch this week. As I said, we've got 491 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 3: a lot more to to read, so we will try 492 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: to tackle more of that next Monday, but for now, 493 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 3: I think we'll cap it there. 494 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: That's right. If you want to listen to more, listener mail, 495 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: though it's every Monday, and the Stuff to Blow Your 496 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: Mind podcast feed core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a 497 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: short form monster fact or artifact on Wednesdays, and on Friday, 498 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about 499 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 500 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 501 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 3: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 502 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 503 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 504 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 3: email us at contact, stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 505 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 506 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 507 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.