Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey everyone, and welcome to tech Stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Strickland, and today we're going to continue our
Speaker 1: discussion about carbon fiber. Our listener Matt wrote in and
Speaker 1: asked us if we could perhaps talk about this amazing
Speaker 1: substance and what it does and how we make it
Speaker 1: in fact can Yeah, So that last episode was really
Speaker 1: all about the history of carbon fiber, what we first
Speaker 1: used it for, and and the uh sort of the
Speaker 1: progression of the industry over time. Today we're going to
Speaker 1: focus more on what it's made, how you know, how
Speaker 1: we make this stuff, and also what it's used for
Speaker 1: specifically beyond some of the general things we've talked about,
Speaker 1: what what makes it so awesome? Sure, let's let's start
Speaker 1: really quick with a with a brief overview of what
Speaker 1: carbon fiber is um. It's it's made up of thin
Speaker 1: strands of crystalline carbon um, like like a really thin
Speaker 1: like human hair or thinner, that have been twisted into
Speaker 1: yarn type stuff and then woven into cloth type stuff
Speaker 1: and then usually treated with some kind of resin and
Speaker 1: molded into a final shape right which it will then hold.
Speaker 1: So it's not you know, it's not like you put
Speaker 1: it in a shape and then like regular cloth that
Speaker 1: then loses that shape. You actually that resin helps it
Speaker 1: hold that that particular shape, so that you end up
Speaker 1: with a really strong, really light material. Right, And I
Speaker 1: forgot one step at the beginning there, which is you
Speaker 1: have to create a this. You have to create this
Speaker 1: carbonized material, this crystalline carbon strand um, which you do
Speaker 1: with stuff called a precursor, which can be made with
Speaker 1: it is most commonly made with rayon poly acryllum nitrial
Speaker 1: a K A pan, which we're probably going to use
Speaker 1: more often than polyocryllam nitrial certainly I will um or
Speaker 1: petroleum pitch yep. So these precursor fibers, with the exception
Speaker 1: of petroleum pitch, this is all stuff that we are
Speaker 1: making synthetically. Uh, you know, we're creating polymers. Polymers are
Speaker 1: our long chain molecules. They're made up of monomers. A
Speaker 1: monomer think of that as like a basic unit of
Speaker 1: a polymer. So you get these really long chains and
Speaker 1: then we carbonize them. So what how do we carbonize? Well,
Speaker 1: for one thing, we use chemicals to alter the molecules
Speaker 1: in the fiber to create a perfect chain of carbon atoms.
Speaker 1: And these precursor fibers are pulled through an oxidation oven
Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, and that oven's temperature is
Speaker 1: about two hundred fifty degrees celsius. So the fibers then
Speaker 1: take on oxygen atoms from the air while in the
Speaker 1: this oven. Now, this is not the actual carbonization process here.
Speaker 1: This is just pre treatment, kind of like when you
Speaker 1: take your car in to get car washed, and this
Speaker 1: is the pre wash part of the wash. We should
Speaker 1: probably do an episode about car washes at some point
Speaker 1: and find out which one which of those ages are
Speaker 1: actually necessary. But getting back to the carbon fiber, the
Speaker 1: incorporation of oxygen atoms into the molecular structure of the
Speaker 1: fibers make the fibers actually resistant to high heat. It's
Speaker 1: very important because of an upcoming step. Now. At that time,
Speaker 1: the color of these precursor fibers changes as it oxidizes
Speaker 1: and eventually turns black. So whenever you hear something like
Speaker 1: carbon black, and yeah, it's that particular color. Like I
Speaker 1: remember this all the time in video games where you're
Speaker 1: choosing your like halo, particularly where you're choosing your armor colors.
Speaker 1: It's because it's taking it from the carbon fiber color,
Speaker 1: and the color tends to be black because that's what
Speaker 1: happens through the oxidation phase. So next you put these
Speaker 1: oxidized fibers, the ones that have been tempered for high heat,
Speaker 1: to go into another furnace, and this one has controlled
Speaker 1: amounts of other gases, but not oxygen, because you don't
Speaker 1: want the fibers to burn, right, because in the presence
Speaker 1: of oxygen, those fibers but come fuel and then you
Speaker 1: just get fire, right, and then an ash is less strong. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: If you just burn up your material, you are not
Speaker 1: doing it right. So what you have to do is
Speaker 1: you have to have these other gases that can introduce
Speaker 1: other types of atoms into the molecular structure, for instance
Speaker 1: hydrogen perhaps, but non oxygen, so that way you don't
Speaker 1: actually have a fire, you don't end up burning the stuff, right. So,
Speaker 1: so with this tremendous heat, the the fibers vibrate and
Speaker 1: the atoms that are not carbon vibrate right out of
Speaker 1: this stuff, resulting in this carbonized material exactly. So we
Speaker 1: get these carbon atoms and they are becoming these tightly
Speaker 1: packed crystals that run parallel to the length of the fiber.
Speaker 1: The fibers then go through a bath of electrically charged
Speaker 1: water which etches the surface of the fibers. It actually
Speaker 1: carves into the surface of the fiber a little bit,
Speaker 1: and those etched surfaces create anchor points for resin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because other wise, you know, the resin wouldn't necessarily adhere
Speaker 1: evenly to the carbon fiber, making it less useful. This
Speaker 1: is a way of sort of giving those little handholds.
Speaker 1: I think of it like a rock wall with a
Speaker 1: little handholds in them, similar to that. So next you
Speaker 1: have to spray the fibers with a light resin. Now
Speaker 1: that that is important for two reasons. It helps improve
Speaker 1: the fiber's material strength, and it creates a bonding agent
Speaker 1: for any future resin that would be applied to that
Speaker 1: carbon fiber. So this is not the stuff that makes
Speaker 1: carbon fiber uh adhere to a specific shape multi right.
Speaker 1: This is just so that if you exactly if you
Speaker 1: want to apply multiple resin to it, that resin will
Speaker 1: adhere better. So everything here is all about pre treating
Speaker 1: this stuff so that it can eventually be put through
Speaker 1: whatever manufacturing process you want to continue down the road
Speaker 1: in order to get at whatever you're making, for example,
Speaker 1: a golf club, um or an airplane. Who knows, you
Speaker 1: could do either with the the sort of stuff. So
Speaker 1: then you have the finished carbon fiber, which is called
Speaker 1: a carbon fiber toe, and you wind that on a spool.
Speaker 1: So this is the stuff that other companies buy as
Speaker 1: raw material, which then they can braid, we've mold or
Speaker 1: otherwise altered to make into their final product. Now, carbon
Speaker 1: fiber toes can also be grouped together in larger amounts
Speaker 1: called a web. Now, these webs can be put through
Speaker 1: a process that ends with a sheet of carbon fiber material.
Speaker 1: It's kind of cool. It looks like just an enormous
Speaker 1: black sheet of fabric, but that fabric is actually carbon fiber.
Speaker 1: So that fabric is five times stronger than steel and
Speaker 1: lighter than steel, and more more, it can be stiffer
Speaker 1: than steel if you apply the resin to it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to think that something that looks like
Speaker 1: cloth could have these properties. Now, see the web is
Speaker 1: sandwich between sheets of paper to have a resin coating
Speaker 1: on them. Sounds familiar, right, got a lot of resin
Speaker 1: in this process. But these sheets are pulled through a
Speaker 1: high temperature hair of rollers. So think of the ringers
Speaker 1: we talked about with the washing machines, same sort of thing.
Speaker 1: You're putting this whole thing. Those those rollers are are
Speaker 1: at a high temperature. They're pressed together really tightly. And
Speaker 1: what this does is you get this protective layer over
Speaker 1: that that carbon fiber sheet, and then you remove the
Speaker 1: two pieces of paper. They just peel away because part
Speaker 1: of the material in there is kind of like a
Speaker 1: nose stick coating, sort of like teflon. And so you
Speaker 1: pull the paper away and you roll the the carbon
Speaker 1: fiber material, like the big sheet of material onto giant,
Speaker 1: giant spools. You do have to put a little polyvinyl
Speaker 1: coating on them so that way it's actually like exactly,
Speaker 1: but they look like and I am not the only
Speaker 1: one to have used this comparison enormous fruit roll ups,
Speaker 1: and like enormous fruit roll ups, they have that little
Speaker 1: plastic coating to keep it from sticking to it or
Speaker 1: fruit leather if you prefer less proprietarily yea um, but
Speaker 1: but yeah, that that that resin job there reminds me
Speaker 1: a lot of if you, as a child ever made
Speaker 1: ever preserved leaves or flowers in wax paper bye bye,
Speaker 1: by ironing it down so that so that you've got
Speaker 1: that thin layer of wax. Similar to similar, very similar.
Speaker 1: So now this entire process, uh, does have some downsides
Speaker 1: to it. Not the flower pressing things, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: carbon fiber if you're not careful, the flower pressing thing too.
Speaker 1: But no, I'm specifically talking about creating carbon fiber and
Speaker 1: not just the carbon fiber sheets. I'm just talking about
Speaker 1: the whole process of carbon fiber in general. One of
Speaker 1: those is that it tends to give off a lot
Speaker 1: of dangerous gases, including carbon monoxide. So the smokes and
Speaker 1: tars that are given off in this process are not
Speaker 1: necessarily poisonous, but can contribute to serious health issues with
Speaker 1: prolonged exposure. So one of the things that's really important
Speaker 1: in the facilities that make carbon fibers is that they
Speaker 1: have really good ventilation so that the who work inside
Speaker 1: them don't get sick over time, sure, and really good
Speaker 1: collections so that you're not polluting the environment. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: this is a process that could potentially be harmful to
Speaker 1: the environment just through the production process. Now, we talked
Speaker 1: in the last podcast about how the fact that it's
Speaker 1: lighter and stronger than steel means that using it for
Speaker 1: vehicles means you use less fuel for that vehicle, which yeah,
Speaker 1: and it makes it environmentally friendly from a fuel consumption process.
Speaker 1: But like all things, you have to look at the
Speaker 1: enormous picture, which you know. It's one of those things
Speaker 1: where every time I start getting really excited about technology,
Speaker 1: thinking oh, clean energy, and then I start looking beyond
Speaker 1: about how do you make the clean energy? And then
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there needs to be a magic button.
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. But anyway, you you classify this
Speaker 1: stuff according to the tent sile modulus of the fiber.
Speaker 1: Tentsile modulus, it's a measure of how stiff the fiber is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's that's the term. Then the industry is tensile modulus.
Speaker 1: And I bet because because of the way the world works,
Speaker 1: there is both an English system and an international system
Speaker 1: for dealing with this. You are absolutely correct. So the
Speaker 1: English system would be pounds of force per square inch
Speaker 1: across sectional area, also known as p s I PI,
Speaker 1: and then the international system of units would be the
Speaker 1: PASCAL which is also known as force per unit area.
Speaker 1: So one pascal is one newton of force per square meter,
Speaker 1: meaning that it is interesting to try and convert between
Speaker 1: the two. Fortunately, the the various sources we looked at
Speaker 1: spelled it all out for us, so we didn't have
Speaker 1: to see we didn't have to do the Yeah, we
Speaker 1: didn't have to worry about being the ones who messed
Speaker 1: up a conversion. So if these conversions are just, let
Speaker 1: Google do that for me. Not the Google usually messes
Speaker 1: up conversion. If I mess up a conversion, it's because
Speaker 1: I accidentally didn't realize I put the wrong unit in
Speaker 1: on one side of the conversion. Uh So, fortunately this case,
Speaker 1: we didn't have to worry about that. So low modulus
Speaker 1: carbon fiber have a tensile modulus below thirty four point
Speaker 1: eight million p s i or two hundred forty million
Speaker 1: k p a that's kilo pascals. And on the other
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum is the ultra high modulus. There's
Speaker 1: a tensile modulus of seventy two point five to one
Speaker 1: hundred forty five million p s i or five hundred
Speaker 1: million to one billion kilo pascals. Now, in between those
Speaker 1: two extremes are levels like standard modulus, intermediate modulus and
Speaker 1: high modulus, and if you wanted to compare it to steel, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so for you know, for baseline comparison, right, because often
Speaker 1: that's what we like to look at, right, carbon fiber
Speaker 1: versus steel, I mean, otherwise hy use carbon fiber at all.
Speaker 1: If steel, we're better. So steel has a tensile modulus
Speaker 1: of around twenty nine million p s i or two
Speaker 1: hundred million kilo pascals, so close, but but not even
Speaker 1: reaching the low modulus. Yeah. Yeah, the low modulus was
Speaker 1: thirty four point eight million ps i or two million
Speaker 1: kilo pascal. So that means that if you go with
Speaker 1: the strongest carbon fibers, you get ten times the the
Speaker 1: strength of steel, right, the tin style modulus if you
Speaker 1: want to be really picky, but yes, strength is how
Speaker 1: we usually call it. So steel is five times heavier
Speaker 1: than carbon fiber, and carbon fibers ten times stronger than steel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're using the ultra high version. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: And that is I mean again one of the big
Speaker 1: reasons why everyone is is really excited by this this
Speaker 1: particular type of material. Oh absolutely, but but okay, so
Speaker 1: aside from those pollution related drawbacks that we mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: There are unfortunately some others with this material. We touched
Speaker 1: on them briefly in the previous episode, but let's go
Speaker 1: a little bit further into them. However, before we do so,
Speaker 1: let us take a quick break to thank our sponsor.
Speaker 1: I like saving the negative stuff for after the sponsor break.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some draw backs, all right. So we
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in our first episode in fact, that carbon
Speaker 1: fiber is expensive, and we mean really expensive. It's like
Speaker 1: ten dollars a pound on the low end, whereas steel
Speaker 1: is something like a dollar per pound. Now we should
Speaker 1: say this is an improvement from twenty years ago. In right,
Speaker 1: carbon fiber back then cost a hundred and fifty bucks
Speaker 1: a pound, So the prices dropped precipitously, one might say,
Speaker 1: since the nineties. Still more expensive than steel. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and the price is because of that really intricate manufacturing
Speaker 1: process that we've just talked through. Um, the raw materials
Speaker 1: are more like four dollars per pound, which, to be fair,
Speaker 1: is still four times what steel costs. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're you. And that's just to make those raw materials
Speaker 1: I mean, or by those raw materials before you put
Speaker 1: them through the carbon fiber process. So what exactly is
Speaker 1: making the process expensive? Okay? First off, those furnaces, Uh,
Speaker 1: not the original furnaces, not oxidization, but the car ization, right. Uh,
Speaker 1: they run around or even an excess of a thousand
Speaker 1: degrees celsius, which is over eighteen hundred degrees fahrenheit, Meaning
Speaker 1: you've got a really big power bill. I always worry
Speaker 1: if I've let the oven on. Yeah, the process uses
Speaker 1: some five times more energy than steel production. Okay. Also,
Speaker 1: venting the waste materials safely is expensive. We talked about
Speaker 1: how carbon monoxide is one of the big things that's
Speaker 1: led out in this process, right right, Um, and uh,
Speaker 1: weaving the stuff for maximum safety is expensive. You have
Speaker 1: to use a lot of fibers to compensate for for
Speaker 1: potential imperfections in the weave that could cause strain and
Speaker 1: eventual breakage within the fabric. Um. Also, it takes longer
Speaker 1: to create a piece than it does to just stamp
Speaker 1: out a piece of steel. You know, it's it's this
Speaker 1: huge three part process. Um. It takes an hour to
Speaker 1: cure the resin alone. So we're talking, we're talking about
Speaker 1: bunches of time. Okay, But all right, I see here
Speaker 1: you actually looked more into the reson itself. I'm really
Speaker 1: interested in this process, right, Okay, So if you make
Speaker 1: it with the most common resin, which is thermos set resin,
Speaker 1: it's in that shape forever. Um. It's it's really difficult
Speaker 1: to reef or melt down or recycle thermo set resin
Speaker 1: carbon fiber. Um if you do try to recycle this stuff,
Speaker 1: that the resulting carbon fiber is weaker, it's too weak
Speaker 1: to be used, for example, in a car body for
Speaker 1: for safety standards. So there's greater potential for waste in
Speaker 1: both manufacturing and the post consumer market. I mean, if
Speaker 1: if you set this thing wrong, it's I mean you've
Speaker 1: basically just wasted this huge, expensive process. So if your
Speaker 1: molds are off even by a little bit, then you're
Speaker 1: you're stuck with the shape that you've got and you
Speaker 1: can't easily break it down and just make a new
Speaker 1: one because it's going to be less strong. They'll be
Speaker 1: too weak to really possibly depending upon what the application was. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that that's a big drawback. Yeah. Um, there are
Speaker 1: some possible solutions to us that the industry is looking
Speaker 1: into other than the manufacturing streamlining that Jonathan was talking
Speaker 1: about earlier, UM, and those are using strong acrylics in
Speaker 1: place of carbon fibers, or perhaps in combination with carbon fibers. UM,
Speaker 1: they're experimenting with heating the stuff with plasma instead of
Speaker 1: the thermal furnaces that are currently in use. You know,
Speaker 1: I love plasma furnaces. They're pretty they're pretty cool. Not
Speaker 1: literally link about plasma furnaces, so UM or or possibly
Speaker 1: using re multiple thermoplastic resins in place of the permanent
Speaker 1: thermoset resins that are currently in use. Now that's interesting. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously with that particular approach, you would have to make
Speaker 1: sure whatever application you are using, uh, the carbon fiber
Speaker 1: for wasn't going to bring it into contact with temperatures
Speaker 1: too high. So obviously, like exactly that would be. That
Speaker 1: would be one where I think the permanent thermo set
Speaker 1: would definitely be the way to go because they undergo
Speaker 1: such extremes and temperature that anything that could potentially weaken
Speaker 1: the the structure would be a big negative for that
Speaker 1: particular application. Sure, one more downside before we get onto
Speaker 1: happier news though, UM, the a lot of the precursor
Speaker 1: materials are petroleum based, and so you know, which which
Speaker 1: obviously petroleum is an expensive and non renewable resource unless
Speaker 1: you've got a few billion years to play with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind, you know, stretching out your lifespan
Speaker 1: too beyond what is conceivable, then you're fine. But otherwise
Speaker 1: you could reach a point where in years we're gonna
Speaker 1: have the singularity. That's true. That's so, I guess millions
Speaker 1: of years. I guess it's really millions, not billions of years.
Speaker 1: I apologize, guys, hundreds of millions of years. So it's fine.
Speaker 1: I was overstating things exaggeration in order to make a point.
Speaker 1: But but so researchers are looking into renewable precursors like
Speaker 1: ann which is a would byproduct that would be really useful.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of funny too, because in a way
Speaker 1: it's looking back to the earliest days of carbon fibers,
Speaker 1: where we were using cotton and bamboo to create carbon fiber. Now,
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the other benefits when when
Speaker 1: you treat this carbon fiber with the right resin, ends
Speaker 1: up being resistant to corrosives, which makes it an ideal
Speaker 1: material for pipes that tend to carry corrosive liquids. And
Speaker 1: their fatigue properties are better than any metal. So by
Speaker 1: having these pipes, you don't have to worry about them
Speaker 1: wearing out as quickly. They're not going to corrode based
Speaker 1: upon whatever materials moving through them, and they are themselves
Speaker 1: and nerts, so you don't have to worry about chemical
Speaker 1: reactions going on in there. So that would be one
Speaker 1: of the big benefits if we were able to make
Speaker 1: enough of it to be used in that kind of infrastructure. Sure.
Speaker 1: Also that strength uh really is impressive. Formula one race
Speaker 1: cars are made all of carbon fiber. Well, I guess
Speaker 1: not all of carbon fiber. I mean, you know they've
Speaker 1: got pieces, right, but the body is uh, and that's
Speaker 1: more as a safety regulation than anything else. So so
Speaker 1: if we could bring down the cost of the manufacturer,
Speaker 1: it could potentially save lives. Sure yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: you end up making even basic car designs much stronger
Speaker 1: just by switching the materials they're made out of. And then, uh,
Speaker 1: something kind of cool that I read before we started,
Speaker 1: uh really getting into this podcast. It was just a neat,
Speaker 1: little little news item, and uh, I encourage folks who
Speaker 1: are interested to go and look up the Mark one
Speaker 1: three D printer. It's billed as the world's first three
Speaker 1: D printer designed to print continuous carbon fiber. So it
Speaker 1: uses a process called composite filament fabrication or CFF, which
Speaker 1: embeds continuous strands of fibers in a thermoplastic matrix. So
Speaker 1: you could actually print carbon fiber pieces like you could
Speaker 1: print various components in carbon fiber, right with that thermoplastic
Speaker 1: that I was talking about being being remoltable and remoltable,
Speaker 1: and so you might be thinking, hey, how much would
Speaker 1: one of these things run me? So if you want
Speaker 1: to pre order one of these, because they don't they
Speaker 1: haven't been out on the market yet, you can pre
Speaker 1: order one. Uh the cost is a lowly four thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: which you know printers really isn't that expensive. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're looking at at three D printers that are
Speaker 1: printing in UH an a BS plastic, which is typically
Speaker 1: what other three D printers use, those tend to be
Speaker 1: less expensive, but a BS plastics not as strong. In fact,
Speaker 1: the print of material materials are supposed to be up
Speaker 1: to twenty times stiffer and five times stronger than a
Speaker 1: BS plastic parts. So if you are building things that
Speaker 1: have a lot of wear to them over time. This
Speaker 1: could be a good solution because it means you don't
Speaker 1: have to print replacements as frequently. Sure, although I mean
Speaker 1: I imagine that the cash to purchase the materials to
Speaker 1: put into your printer. Yeah, it might be more expensive
Speaker 1: to get the actual like quote unquote the toner than
Speaker 1: a BS, So that is something else to take into consideration.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so this material has has a huge amount
Speaker 1: of current use and future promise. Yeah. In fact, I
Speaker 1: remember some people even going so far as to look
Speaker 1: into the use of carbon fibers as a potential tether
Speaker 1: material for space elevator. But as it turns out when
Speaker 1: you do the math, it looks like, uh, carbon fibers
Speaker 1: wouldn't be strong enough. It wouldn't have the tin sile
Speaker 1: strength to withstand the forces. Yeah, because it's not quite
Speaker 1: as strong as carbon nanotubes. I mean, the problem with
Speaker 1: carbonano tubes being there that you know you can't get
Speaker 1: them as long as you can carbon. Yeah, producing carbon
Speaker 1: nanotubes is a big problem right now. Like, while we're
Speaker 1: getting closer and closer to to really efficient means of
Speaker 1: making carbon fiber more plentiful, due to the manufacturing process
Speaker 1: improvements over time. We're a long way with carbon nanotubes.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen some promising developments, but you know
Speaker 1: it's still going to be a while. But anyway, really
Speaker 1: cool stuff. Thank you so much again, Matt for your suggestion.
Speaker 1: We greatly appreciate it. Yes, if you would like to
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