WEBVTT - How Carbon Fiber Works 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:06.400 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:14.840 stuff works dot com. Hey everyone, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.960 I'm Jonathan Strickland, and today we're going to continue our 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.880 discussion about carbon fiber. Our listener Matt wrote in and 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.360 asked us if we could perhaps talk about this amazing 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.680 substance and what it does and how we make it 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.800 in fact can Yeah, So that last episode was really 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.520 all about the history of carbon fiber, what we first 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.199 used it for, and and the uh sort of the 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.159 progression of the industry over time. Today we're going to 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.400 focus more on what it's made, how you know, how 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.559 we make this stuff, and also what it's used for 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.800 specifically beyond some of the general things we've talked about, 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.800 what what makes it so awesome? Sure, let's let's start 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:56.760 really quick with a with a brief overview of what 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 carbon fiber is um. It's it's made up of thin 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.279 strands of crystalline carbon um, like like a really thin 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:06.840 like human hair or thinner, that have been twisted into 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:11.160 yarn type stuff and then woven into cloth type stuff 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.760 and then usually treated with some kind of resin and 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.920 molded into a final shape right which it will then hold. 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.600 So it's not you know, it's not like you put 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:22.600 it in a shape and then like regular cloth that 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.200 then loses that shape. You actually that resin helps it 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.240 hold that that particular shape, so that you end up 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.480 with a really strong, really light material. Right, And I 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.560 forgot one step at the beginning there, which is you 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.880 have to create a this. You have to create this 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:44.320 carbonized material, this crystalline carbon strand um, which you do 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.880 with stuff called a precursor, which can be made with 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.520 it is most commonly made with rayon poly acryllum nitrial 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.360 a K A pan, which we're probably going to use 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:58.240 more often than polyocryllam nitrial certainly I will um or 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.320 petroleum pitch yep. So these precursor fibers, with the exception 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.560 of petroleum pitch, this is all stuff that we are 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:10.119 making synthetically. Uh, you know, we're creating polymers. Polymers are 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.959 our long chain molecules. They're made up of monomers. A 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.160 monomer think of that as like a basic unit of 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.840 a polymer. So you get these really long chains and 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:24.160 then we carbonize them. So what how do we carbonize? Well, 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.560 for one thing, we use chemicals to alter the molecules 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.600 in the fiber to create a perfect chain of carbon atoms. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.200 And these precursor fibers are pulled through an oxidation oven 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.799 for a couple of minutes, and that oven's temperature is 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:41.520 about two hundred fifty degrees celsius. So the fibers then 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.120 take on oxygen atoms from the air while in the 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.080 this oven. Now, this is not the actual carbonization process here. 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.880 This is just pre treatment, kind of like when you 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.000 take your car in to get car washed, and this 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.320 is the pre wash part of the wash. We should 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.480 probably do an episode about car washes at some point 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.360 and find out which one which of those ages are 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:05.320 actually necessary. But getting back to the carbon fiber, the 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.280 incorporation of oxygen atoms into the molecular structure of the 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.400 fibers make the fibers actually resistant to high heat. It's 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.960 very important because of an upcoming step. Now. At that time, 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:20.880 the color of these precursor fibers changes as it oxidizes 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.000 and eventually turns black. So whenever you hear something like 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.080 carbon black, and yeah, it's that particular color. Like I 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.000 remember this all the time in video games where you're 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.840 choosing your like halo, particularly where you're choosing your armor colors. 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.920 It's because it's taking it from the carbon fiber color, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.120 and the color tends to be black because that's what 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.040 happens through the oxidation phase. So next you put these 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.680 oxidized fibers, the ones that have been tempered for high heat, 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.240 to go into another furnace, and this one has controlled 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.280 amounts of other gases, but not oxygen, because you don't 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.320 want the fibers to burn, right, because in the presence 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.520 of oxygen, those fibers but come fuel and then you 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.600 just get fire, right, and then an ash is less strong. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.000 If you just burn up your material, you are not 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:10.840 doing it right. So what you have to do is 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.160 you have to have these other gases that can introduce 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.719 other types of atoms into the molecular structure, for instance 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.479 hydrogen perhaps, but non oxygen, so that way you don't 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.880 actually have a fire, you don't end up burning the stuff, right. So, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.920 so with this tremendous heat, the the fibers vibrate and 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.960 the atoms that are not carbon vibrate right out of 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:37.320 this stuff, resulting in this carbonized material exactly. So we 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.600 get these carbon atoms and they are becoming these tightly 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.599 packed crystals that run parallel to the length of the fiber. 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.800 The fibers then go through a bath of electrically charged 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.880 water which etches the surface of the fibers. It actually 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.880 carves into the surface of the fiber a little bit, 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.479 and those etched surfaces create anchor points for resin. Yeah, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.080 because other wise, you know, the resin wouldn't necessarily adhere 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.320 evenly to the carbon fiber, making it less useful. This 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.520 is a way of sort of giving those little handholds. 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.040 I think of it like a rock wall with a 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.360 little handholds in them, similar to that. So next you 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.840 have to spray the fibers with a light resin. Now 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.400 that that is important for two reasons. It helps improve 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.839 the fiber's material strength, and it creates a bonding agent 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.479 for any future resin that would be applied to that 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.520 carbon fiber. So this is not the stuff that makes 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:34.240 carbon fiber uh adhere to a specific shape multi right. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.640 This is just so that if you exactly if you 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.080 want to apply multiple resin to it, that resin will 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.919 adhere better. So everything here is all about pre treating 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.039 this stuff so that it can eventually be put through 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.080 whatever manufacturing process you want to continue down the road 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.800 in order to get at whatever you're making, for example, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.640 a golf club, um or an airplane. Who knows, you 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.440 could do either with the the sort of stuff. So 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.039 then you have the finished carbon fiber, which is called 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.880 a carbon fiber toe, and you wind that on a spool. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.520 So this is the stuff that other companies buy as 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.839 raw material, which then they can braid, we've mold or 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.560 otherwise altered to make into their final product. Now, carbon 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.320 fiber toes can also be grouped together in larger amounts 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.080 called a web. Now, these webs can be put through 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.200 a process that ends with a sheet of carbon fiber material. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.160 It's kind of cool. It looks like just an enormous 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:34.120 black sheet of fabric, but that fabric is actually carbon fiber. 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.160 So that fabric is five times stronger than steel and 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.680 lighter than steel, and more more, it can be stiffer 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.440 than steel if you apply the resin to it. I mean, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.240 it's it's interesting to think that something that looks like 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.599 cloth could have these properties. Now, see the web is 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.919 sandwich between sheets of paper to have a resin coating 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:55.920 on them. Sounds familiar, right, got a lot of resin 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.920 in this process. But these sheets are pulled through a 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.400 high temperature hair of rollers. So think of the ringers 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.320 we talked about with the washing machines, same sort of thing. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.960 You're putting this whole thing. Those those rollers are are 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.680 at a high temperature. They're pressed together really tightly. And 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.160 what this does is you get this protective layer over 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.040 that that carbon fiber sheet, and then you remove the 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.120 two pieces of paper. They just peel away because part 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.200 of the material in there is kind of like a 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.160 nose stick coating, sort of like teflon. And so you 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.760 pull the paper away and you roll the the carbon 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:37.679 fiber material, like the big sheet of material onto giant, 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.200 giant spools. You do have to put a little polyvinyl 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.200 coating on them so that way it's actually like exactly, 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.600 but they look like and I am not the only 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.160 one to have used this comparison enormous fruit roll ups, 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.280 and like enormous fruit roll ups, they have that little 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.000 plastic coating to keep it from sticking to it or 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:02.680 fruit leather if you prefer less proprietarily yea um, but 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.280 but yeah, that that that resin job there reminds me 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.600 a lot of if you, as a child ever made 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.200 ever preserved leaves or flowers in wax paper bye bye, 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.080 by ironing it down so that so that you've got 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.440 that thin layer of wax. Similar to similar, very similar. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:24.240 So now this entire process, uh, does have some downsides 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.840 to it. Not the flower pressing things, no, no, no, no, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:31.200 carbon fiber if you're not careful, the flower pressing thing too. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.240 But no, I'm specifically talking about creating carbon fiber and 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.280 not just the carbon fiber sheets. I'm just talking about 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.320 the whole process of carbon fiber in general. One of 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.360 those is that it tends to give off a lot 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:46.280 of dangerous gases, including carbon monoxide. So the smokes and 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:48.480 tars that are given off in this process are not 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.320 necessarily poisonous, but can contribute to serious health issues with 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.480 prolonged exposure. So one of the things that's really important 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.920 in the facilities that make carbon fibers is that they 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.880 have really good ventilation so that the who work inside 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.600 them don't get sick over time, sure, and really good 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.880 collections so that you're not polluting the environment. Yeah, so 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.800 this is a process that could potentially be harmful to 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.000 the environment just through the production process. Now, we talked 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.680 in the last podcast about how the fact that it's 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.160 lighter and stronger than steel means that using it for 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.440 vehicles means you use less fuel for that vehicle, which yeah, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.040 and it makes it environmentally friendly from a fuel consumption process. 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.319 But like all things, you have to look at the 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.680 enormous picture, which you know. It's one of those things 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.239 where every time I start getting really excited about technology, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.800 thinking oh, clean energy, and then I start looking beyond 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.560 about how do you make the clean energy? And then 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.920 I think, yeah, there needs to be a magic button. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.000 That's all I'm saying. But anyway, you you classify this 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.200 stuff according to the tent sile modulus of the fiber. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.160 Tentsile modulus, it's a measure of how stiff the fiber is. Yeah, 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.960 but that's that's the term. Then the industry is tensile modulus. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.800 And I bet because because of the way the world works, 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.000 there is both an English system and an international system 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.160 for dealing with this. You are absolutely correct. So the 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.800 English system would be pounds of force per square inch 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:20.040 across sectional area, also known as p s I PI, 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.280 and then the international system of units would be the 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.840 PASCAL which is also known as force per unit area. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.600 So one pascal is one newton of force per square meter, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.680 meaning that it is interesting to try and convert between 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:39.640 the two. Fortunately, the the various sources we looked at 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.280 spelled it all out for us, so we didn't have 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:43.880 to see we didn't have to do the Yeah, we 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.880 didn't have to worry about being the ones who messed 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.679 up a conversion. So if these conversions are just, let 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.079 Google do that for me. Not the Google usually messes 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.960 up conversion. If I mess up a conversion, it's because 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.000 I accidentally didn't realize I put the wrong unit in 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:02.160 on one side of the conversion. Uh So, fortunately this case, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.200 we didn't have to worry about that. So low modulus 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.959 carbon fiber have a tensile modulus below thirty four point 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.200 eight million p s i or two hundred forty million 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.120 k p a that's kilo pascals. And on the other 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.400 end of the spectrum is the ultra high modulus. There's 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.280 a tensile modulus of seventy two point five to one 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.480 hundred forty five million p s i or five hundred 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:31.000 million to one billion kilo pascals. Now, in between those 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.000 two extremes are levels like standard modulus, intermediate modulus and 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.280 high modulus, and if you wanted to compare it to steel, Yeah, yeah, 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.560 so for you know, for baseline comparison, right, because often 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.559 that's what we like to look at, right, carbon fiber 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.720 versus steel, I mean, otherwise hy use carbon fiber at all. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.280 If steel, we're better. So steel has a tensile modulus 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.319 of around twenty nine million p s i or two 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.360 hundred million kilo pascals, so close, but but not even 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.959 reaching the low modulus. Yeah. Yeah, the low modulus was 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.480 thirty four point eight million ps i or two million 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.360 kilo pascal. So that means that if you go with 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:11.559 the strongest carbon fibers, you get ten times the the 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.160 strength of steel, right, the tin style modulus if you 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.319 want to be really picky, but yes, strength is how 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.079 we usually call it. So steel is five times heavier 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:25.160 than carbon fiber, and carbon fibers ten times stronger than steel. Yeah, 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.600 if you're using the ultra high version. So that's pretty cool. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.040 And that is I mean again one of the big 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.360 reasons why everyone is is really excited by this this 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.600 particular type of material. Oh absolutely, but but okay, so 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:42.400 aside from those pollution related drawbacks that we mentioned earlier. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.679 There are unfortunately some others with this material. We touched 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.440 on them briefly in the previous episode, but let's go 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.679 a little bit further into them. However, before we do so, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.120 let us take a quick break to thank our sponsor. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.920 I like saving the negative stuff for after the sponsor break. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.440 Let's talk about some draw backs, all right. So we 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.160 mentioned earlier in our first episode in fact, that carbon 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.440 fiber is expensive, and we mean really expensive. It's like 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.320 ten dollars a pound on the low end, whereas steel 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.760 is something like a dollar per pound. Now we should 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.600 say this is an improvement from twenty years ago. In right, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.800 carbon fiber back then cost a hundred and fifty bucks 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:25.120 a pound, So the prices dropped precipitously, one might say, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.200 since the nineties. Still more expensive than steel. Yeah, and 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.520 and the price is because of that really intricate manufacturing 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.000 process that we've just talked through. Um, the raw materials 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.000 are more like four dollars per pound, which, to be fair, 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.959 is still four times what steel costs. Yeah, I mean, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.199 you're you. And that's just to make those raw materials 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.199 I mean, or by those raw materials before you put 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.880 them through the carbon fiber process. So what exactly is 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:56.760 making the process expensive? Okay? First off, those furnaces, Uh, 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.320 not the original furnaces, not oxidization, but the car ization, right. Uh, 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.480 they run around or even an excess of a thousand 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:09.600 degrees celsius, which is over eighteen hundred degrees fahrenheit, Meaning 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.920 you've got a really big power bill. I always worry 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.960 if I've let the oven on. Yeah, the process uses 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.080 some five times more energy than steel production. Okay. Also, 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.200 venting the waste materials safely is expensive. We talked about 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.520 how carbon monoxide is one of the big things that's 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.640 led out in this process, right right, Um, and uh, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.000 weaving the stuff for maximum safety is expensive. You have 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.800 to use a lot of fibers to compensate for for 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.160 potential imperfections in the weave that could cause strain and 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.440 eventual breakage within the fabric. Um. Also, it takes longer 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.560 to create a piece than it does to just stamp 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.280 out a piece of steel. You know, it's it's this 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:52.480 huge three part process. Um. It takes an hour to 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.360 cure the resin alone. So we're talking, we're talking about 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.720 bunches of time. Okay, But all right, I see here 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.920 you actually looked more into the reson itself. I'm really 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.160 interested in this process, right, Okay, So if you make 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.920 it with the most common resin, which is thermos set resin, 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.240 it's in that shape forever. Um. It's it's really difficult 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.600 to reef or melt down or recycle thermo set resin 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.440 carbon fiber. Um if you do try to recycle this stuff, 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.600 that the resulting carbon fiber is weaker, it's too weak 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.080 to be used, for example, in a car body for 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.080 for safety standards. So there's greater potential for waste in 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.720 both manufacturing and the post consumer market. I mean, if 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.360 if you set this thing wrong, it's I mean you've 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.560 basically just wasted this huge, expensive process. So if your 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.560 molds are off even by a little bit, then you're 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.720 you're stuck with the shape that you've got and you 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.240 can't easily break it down and just make a new 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.400 one because it's going to be less strong. They'll be 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:55.120 too weak to really possibly depending upon what the application was. Yeah. Yeah, 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.520 so that that's a big drawback. Yeah. Um, there are 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.320 some possible solutions to us that the industry is looking 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.480 into other than the manufacturing streamlining that Jonathan was talking 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:10.280 about earlier, UM, and those are using strong acrylics in 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:15.480 place of carbon fibers, or perhaps in combination with carbon fibers. UM, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.400 they're experimenting with heating the stuff with plasma instead of 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.920 the thermal furnaces that are currently in use. You know, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.000 I love plasma furnaces. They're pretty they're pretty cool. Not 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:30.800 literally link about plasma furnaces, so UM or or possibly 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.880 using re multiple thermoplastic resins in place of the permanent 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.240 thermoset resins that are currently in use. Now that's interesting. Now, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.280 obviously with that particular approach, you would have to make 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.560 sure whatever application you are using, uh, the carbon fiber 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.040 for wasn't going to bring it into contact with temperatures 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.520 too high. So obviously, like exactly that would be. That 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.560 would be one where I think the permanent thermo set 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.480 would definitely be the way to go because they undergo 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:05.240 such extremes and temperature that anything that could potentially weaken 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.840 the the structure would be a big negative for that 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:15.000 particular application. Sure, one more downside before we get onto 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.359 happier news though, UM, the a lot of the precursor 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.960 materials are petroleum based, and so you know, which which 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.800 obviously petroleum is an expensive and non renewable resource unless 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.040 you've got a few billion years to play with. Yeah, 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.160 if you don't mind, you know, stretching out your lifespan 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.560 too beyond what is conceivable, then you're fine. But otherwise 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.720 you could reach a point where in years we're gonna 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.359 have the singularity. That's true. That's so, I guess millions 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.640 of years. I guess it's really millions, not billions of years. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.119 I apologize, guys, hundreds of millions of years. So it's fine. 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:55.000 I was overstating things exaggeration in order to make a point. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.600 But but so researchers are looking into renewable precursors like 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.960 ann which is a would byproduct that would be really useful. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.119 So it's kind of funny too, because in a way 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.040 it's looking back to the earliest days of carbon fibers, 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.800 where we were using cotton and bamboo to create carbon fiber. Now, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.000 let's talk about some of the other benefits when when 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.120 you treat this carbon fiber with the right resin, ends 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.280 up being resistant to corrosives, which makes it an ideal 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.639 material for pipes that tend to carry corrosive liquids. And 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.680 their fatigue properties are better than any metal. So by 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.920 having these pipes, you don't have to worry about them 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.440 wearing out as quickly. They're not going to corrode based 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.359 upon whatever materials moving through them, and they are themselves 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.280 and nerts, so you don't have to worry about chemical 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.600 reactions going on in there. So that would be one 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:44.800 of the big benefits if we were able to make 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.480 enough of it to be used in that kind of infrastructure. Sure. 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.680 Also that strength uh really is impressive. Formula one race 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.600 cars are made all of carbon fiber. Well, I guess 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.240 not all of carbon fiber. I mean, you know they've 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.360 got pieces, right, but the body is uh, and that's 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.439 more as a safety regulation than anything else. So so 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.200 if we could bring down the cost of the manufacturer, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.840 it could potentially save lives. Sure yeah, yeah, you know, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.520 you end up making even basic car designs much stronger 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.920 just by switching the materials they're made out of. And then, uh, 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.480 something kind of cool that I read before we started, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.920 uh really getting into this podcast. It was just a neat, 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.000 little little news item, and uh, I encourage folks who 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.560 are interested to go and look up the Mark one 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.679 three D printer. It's billed as the world's first three 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.600 D printer designed to print continuous carbon fiber. So it 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:42.359 uses a process called composite filament fabrication or CFF, which 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.119 embeds continuous strands of fibers in a thermoplastic matrix. So 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.840 you could actually print carbon fiber pieces like you could 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:55.720 print various components in carbon fiber, right with that thermoplastic 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.840 that I was talking about being being remoltable and remoltable, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.960 and so you might be thinking, hey, how much would 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.200 one of these things run me? So if you want 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.160 to pre order one of these, because they don't they 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.480 haven't been out on the market yet, you can pre 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:13.800 order one. Uh the cost is a lowly four thousand dollars, 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.880 which you know printers really isn't that expensive. I mean, 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.199 if you're looking at at three D printers that are 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.360 printing in UH an a BS plastic, which is typically 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.760 what other three D printers use, those tend to be 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.880 less expensive, but a BS plastics not as strong. In fact, 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.359 the print of material materials are supposed to be up 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.399 to twenty times stiffer and five times stronger than a 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.760 BS plastic parts. So if you are building things that 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:41.080 have a lot of wear to them over time. This 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.760 could be a good solution because it means you don't 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.000 have to print replacements as frequently. Sure, although I mean 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.399 I imagine that the cash to purchase the materials to 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.960 put into your printer. Yeah, it might be more expensive 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.200 to get the actual like quote unquote the toner than 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.280 a BS, So that is something else to take into consideration. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.680 But yeah, so this material has has a huge amount 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.879 of current use and future promise. Yeah. In fact, I 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.080 remember some people even going so far as to look 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.320 into the use of carbon fibers as a potential tether 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:19.520 material for space elevator. But as it turns out when 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.520 you do the math, it looks like, uh, carbon fibers 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.480 wouldn't be strong enough. It wouldn't have the tin sile 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.880 strength to withstand the forces. Yeah, because it's not quite 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.760 as strong as carbon nanotubes. I mean, the problem with 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.440 carbonano tubes being there that you know you can't get 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.440 them as long as you can carbon. Yeah, producing carbon 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.480 nanotubes is a big problem right now. Like, while we're 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.639 getting closer and closer to to really efficient means of 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:47.720 making carbon fiber more plentiful, due to the manufacturing process 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.920 improvements over time. We're a long way with carbon nanotubes. 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.199 I mean, we've seen some promising developments, but you know 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.119 it's still going to be a while. But anyway, really 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.240 cool stuff. Thank you so much again, Matt for your suggestion. 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.280 We greatly appreciate it. 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