1
00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,400
Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how

2
00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey everyone, and welcome to tech Stuff.

3
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Strickland, and today we're going to continue our

4
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: discussion about carbon fiber. Our listener Matt wrote in and

5
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: asked us if we could perhaps talk about this amazing

6
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,680
Speaker 1: substance and what it does and how we make it

7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 1: in fact can Yeah, So that last episode was really

8
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,520
Speaker 1: all about the history of carbon fiber, what we first

9
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,199
Speaker 1: used it for, and and the uh sort of the

10
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 1: progression of the industry over time. Today we're going to

11
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: focus more on what it's made, how you know, how

12
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,559
Speaker 1: we make this stuff, and also what it's used for

13
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 1: specifically beyond some of the general things we've talked about,

14
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 1: what what makes it so awesome? Sure, let's let's start

15
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: really quick with a with a brief overview of what

16
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 1: carbon fiber is um. It's it's made up of thin

17
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,279
Speaker 1: strands of crystalline carbon um, like like a really thin

18
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 1: like human hair or thinner, that have been twisted into

19
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,160
Speaker 1: yarn type stuff and then woven into cloth type stuff

20
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 1: and then usually treated with some kind of resin and

21
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 1: molded into a final shape right which it will then hold.

22
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: So it's not you know, it's not like you put

23
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 1: it in a shape and then like regular cloth that

24
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 1: then loses that shape. You actually that resin helps it

25
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,240
Speaker 1: hold that that particular shape, so that you end up

26
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 1: with a really strong, really light material. Right, And I

27
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,560
Speaker 1: forgot one step at the beginning there, which is you

28
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: have to create a this. You have to create this

29
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,320
Speaker 1: carbonized material, this crystalline carbon strand um, which you do

30
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 1: with stuff called a precursor, which can be made with

31
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: it is most commonly made with rayon poly acryllum nitrial

32
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: a K A pan, which we're probably going to use

33
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: more often than polyocryllam nitrial certainly I will um or

34
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 1: petroleum pitch yep. So these precursor fibers, with the exception

35
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 1: of petroleum pitch, this is all stuff that we are

36
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,119
Speaker 1: making synthetically. Uh, you know, we're creating polymers. Polymers are

37
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,959
Speaker 1: our long chain molecules. They're made up of monomers. A

38
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 1: monomer think of that as like a basic unit of

39
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 1: a polymer. So you get these really long chains and

40
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,160
Speaker 1: then we carbonize them. So what how do we carbonize? Well,

41
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,560
Speaker 1: for one thing, we use chemicals to alter the molecules

42
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: in the fiber to create a perfect chain of carbon atoms.

43
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: And these precursor fibers are pulled through an oxidation oven

44
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, and that oven's temperature is

45
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: about two hundred fifty degrees celsius. So the fibers then

46
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 1: take on oxygen atoms from the air while in the

47
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 1: this oven. Now, this is not the actual carbonization process here.

48
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 1: This is just pre treatment, kind of like when you

49
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: take your car in to get car washed, and this

50
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: is the pre wash part of the wash. We should

51
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: probably do an episode about car washes at some point

52
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 1: and find out which one which of those ages are

53
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 1: actually necessary. But getting back to the carbon fiber, the

54
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 1: incorporation of oxygen atoms into the molecular structure of the

55
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 1: fibers make the fibers actually resistant to high heat. It's

56
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,960
Speaker 1: very important because of an upcoming step. Now. At that time,

57
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: the color of these precursor fibers changes as it oxidizes

58
00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 1: and eventually turns black. So whenever you hear something like

59
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,080
Speaker 1: carbon black, and yeah, it's that particular color. Like I

60
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,000
Speaker 1: remember this all the time in video games where you're

61
00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 1: choosing your like halo, particularly where you're choosing your armor colors.

62
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 1: It's because it's taking it from the carbon fiber color,

63
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,120
Speaker 1: and the color tends to be black because that's what

64
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 1: happens through the oxidation phase. So next you put these

65
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 1: oxidized fibers, the ones that have been tempered for high heat,

66
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 1: to go into another furnace, and this one has controlled

67
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,280
Speaker 1: amounts of other gases, but not oxygen, because you don't

68
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 1: want the fibers to burn, right, because in the presence

69
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 1: of oxygen, those fibers but come fuel and then you

70
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 1: just get fire, right, and then an ash is less strong. Yeah. Yeah,

71
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: If you just burn up your material, you are not

72
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: doing it right. So what you have to do is

73
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 1: you have to have these other gases that can introduce

74
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,719
Speaker 1: other types of atoms into the molecular structure, for instance

75
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,479
Speaker 1: hydrogen perhaps, but non oxygen, so that way you don't

76
00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 1: actually have a fire, you don't end up burning the stuff, right. So,

77
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,920
Speaker 1: so with this tremendous heat, the the fibers vibrate and

78
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 1: the atoms that are not carbon vibrate right out of

79
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 1: this stuff, resulting in this carbonized material exactly. So we

80
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 1: get these carbon atoms and they are becoming these tightly

81
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,599
Speaker 1: packed crystals that run parallel to the length of the fiber.

82
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 1: The fibers then go through a bath of electrically charged

83
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 1: water which etches the surface of the fibers. It actually

84
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 1: carves into the surface of the fiber a little bit,

85
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,479
Speaker 1: and those etched surfaces create anchor points for resin. Yeah,

86
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 1: because other wise, you know, the resin wouldn't necessarily adhere

87
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,320
Speaker 1: evenly to the carbon fiber, making it less useful. This

88
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 1: is a way of sort of giving those little handholds.

89
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,040
Speaker 1: I think of it like a rock wall with a

90
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 1: little handholds in them, similar to that. So next you

91
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 1: have to spray the fibers with a light resin. Now

92
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 1: that that is important for two reasons. It helps improve

93
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,839
Speaker 1: the fiber's material strength, and it creates a bonding agent

94
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,479
Speaker 1: for any future resin that would be applied to that

95
00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 1: carbon fiber. So this is not the stuff that makes

96
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: carbon fiber uh adhere to a specific shape multi right.

97
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,640
Speaker 1: This is just so that if you exactly if you

98
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: want to apply multiple resin to it, that resin will

99
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,919
Speaker 1: adhere better. So everything here is all about pre treating

100
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,039
Speaker 1: this stuff so that it can eventually be put through

101
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 1: whatever manufacturing process you want to continue down the road

102
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 1: in order to get at whatever you're making, for example,

103
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 1: a golf club, um or an airplane. Who knows, you

104
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: could do either with the the sort of stuff. So

105
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,039
Speaker 1: then you have the finished carbon fiber, which is called

106
00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 1: a carbon fiber toe, and you wind that on a spool.

107
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 1: So this is the stuff that other companies buy as

108
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,839
Speaker 1: raw material, which then they can braid, we've mold or

109
00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,560
Speaker 1: otherwise altered to make into their final product. Now, carbon

110
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 1: fiber toes can also be grouped together in larger amounts

111
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 1: called a web. Now, these webs can be put through

112
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: a process that ends with a sheet of carbon fiber material.

113
00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 1: It's kind of cool. It looks like just an enormous

114
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,120
Speaker 1: black sheet of fabric, but that fabric is actually carbon fiber.

115
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,160
Speaker 1: So that fabric is five times stronger than steel and

116
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 1: lighter than steel, and more more, it can be stiffer

117
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: than steel if you apply the resin to it. I mean,

118
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,240
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to think that something that looks like

119
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,599
Speaker 1: cloth could have these properties. Now, see the web is

120
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,919
Speaker 1: sandwich between sheets of paper to have a resin coating

121
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,920
Speaker 1: on them. Sounds familiar, right, got a lot of resin

122
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: in this process. But these sheets are pulled through a

123
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 1: high temperature hair of rollers. So think of the ringers

124
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 1: we talked about with the washing machines, same sort of thing.

125
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 1: You're putting this whole thing. Those those rollers are are

126
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: at a high temperature. They're pressed together really tightly. And

127
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 1: what this does is you get this protective layer over

128
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: that that carbon fiber sheet, and then you remove the

129
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,120
Speaker 1: two pieces of paper. They just peel away because part

130
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 1: of the material in there is kind of like a

131
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 1: nose stick coating, sort of like teflon. And so you

132
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: pull the paper away and you roll the the carbon

133
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,679
Speaker 1: fiber material, like the big sheet of material onto giant,

134
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 1: giant spools. You do have to put a little polyvinyl

135
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 1: coating on them so that way it's actually like exactly,

136
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 1: but they look like and I am not the only

137
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: one to have used this comparison enormous fruit roll ups,

138
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 1: and like enormous fruit roll ups, they have that little

139
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: plastic coating to keep it from sticking to it or

140
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 1: fruit leather if you prefer less proprietarily yea um, but

141
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 1: but yeah, that that that resin job there reminds me

142
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,600
Speaker 1: a lot of if you, as a child ever made

143
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: ever preserved leaves or flowers in wax paper bye bye,

144
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 1: by ironing it down so that so that you've got

145
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 1: that thin layer of wax. Similar to similar, very similar.

146
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:24,240
Speaker 1: So now this entire process, uh, does have some downsides

147
00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 1: to it. Not the flower pressing things, no, no, no, no,

148
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,200
Speaker 1: carbon fiber if you're not careful, the flower pressing thing too.

149
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: But no, I'm specifically talking about creating carbon fiber and

150
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 1: not just the carbon fiber sheets. I'm just talking about

151
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 1: the whole process of carbon fiber in general. One of

152
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,360
Speaker 1: those is that it tends to give off a lot

153
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 1: of dangerous gases, including carbon monoxide. So the smokes and

154
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 1: tars that are given off in this process are not

155
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,320
Speaker 1: necessarily poisonous, but can contribute to serious health issues with

156
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,480
Speaker 1: prolonged exposure. So one of the things that's really important

157
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 1: in the facilities that make carbon fibers is that they

158
00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 1: have really good ventilation so that the who work inside

159
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 1: them don't get sick over time, sure, and really good

160
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 1: collections so that you're not polluting the environment. Yeah, so

161
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 1: this is a process that could potentially be harmful to

162
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: the environment just through the production process. Now, we talked

163
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 1: in the last podcast about how the fact that it's

164
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 1: lighter and stronger than steel means that using it for

165
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: vehicles means you use less fuel for that vehicle, which yeah,

166
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,040
Speaker 1: and it makes it environmentally friendly from a fuel consumption process.

167
00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 1: But like all things, you have to look at the

168
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 1: enormous picture, which you know. It's one of those things

169
00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,239
Speaker 1: where every time I start getting really excited about technology,

170
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 1: thinking oh, clean energy, and then I start looking beyond

171
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,560
Speaker 1: about how do you make the clean energy? And then

172
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there needs to be a magic button.

173
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. But anyway, you you classify this

174
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,200
Speaker 1: stuff according to the tent sile modulus of the fiber.

175
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: Tentsile modulus, it's a measure of how stiff the fiber is. Yeah,

176
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 1: but that's that's the term. Then the industry is tensile modulus.

177
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 1: And I bet because because of the way the world works,

178
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 1: there is both an English system and an international system

179
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,160
Speaker 1: for dealing with this. You are absolutely correct. So the

180
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,800
Speaker 1: English system would be pounds of force per square inch

181
00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,040
Speaker 1: across sectional area, also known as p s I PI,

182
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 1: and then the international system of units would be the

183
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: PASCAL which is also known as force per unit area.

184
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: So one pascal is one newton of force per square meter,

185
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 1: meaning that it is interesting to try and convert between

186
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: the two. Fortunately, the the various sources we looked at

187
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 1: spelled it all out for us, so we didn't have

188
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 1: to see we didn't have to do the Yeah, we

189
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 1: didn't have to worry about being the ones who messed

190
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,679
Speaker 1: up a conversion. So if these conversions are just, let

191
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,079
Speaker 1: Google do that for me. Not the Google usually messes

192
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,960
Speaker 1: up conversion. If I mess up a conversion, it's because

193
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 1: I accidentally didn't realize I put the wrong unit in

194
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 1: on one side of the conversion. Uh So, fortunately this case,

195
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,200
Speaker 1: we didn't have to worry about that. So low modulus

196
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,959
Speaker 1: carbon fiber have a tensile modulus below thirty four point

197
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,200
Speaker 1: eight million p s i or two hundred forty million

198
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 1: k p a that's kilo pascals. And on the other

199
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum is the ultra high modulus. There's

200
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 1: a tensile modulus of seventy two point five to one

201
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,480
Speaker 1: hundred forty five million p s i or five hundred

202
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: million to one billion kilo pascals. Now, in between those

203
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 1: two extremes are levels like standard modulus, intermediate modulus and

204
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 1: high modulus, and if you wanted to compare it to steel, Yeah, yeah,

205
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 1: so for you know, for baseline comparison, right, because often

206
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,559
Speaker 1: that's what we like to look at, right, carbon fiber

207
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 1: versus steel, I mean, otherwise hy use carbon fiber at all.

208
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 1: If steel, we're better. So steel has a tensile modulus

209
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,319
Speaker 1: of around twenty nine million p s i or two

210
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: hundred million kilo pascals, so close, but but not even

211
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,959
Speaker 1: reaching the low modulus. Yeah. Yeah, the low modulus was

212
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 1: thirty four point eight million ps i or two million

213
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: kilo pascal. So that means that if you go with

214
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,559
Speaker 1: the strongest carbon fibers, you get ten times the the

215
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 1: strength of steel, right, the tin style modulus if you

216
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,319
Speaker 1: want to be really picky, but yes, strength is how

217
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,079
Speaker 1: we usually call it. So steel is five times heavier

218
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 1: than carbon fiber, and carbon fibers ten times stronger than steel. Yeah,

219
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 1: if you're using the ultra high version. So that's pretty cool.

220
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 1: And that is I mean again one of the big

221
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 1: reasons why everyone is is really excited by this this

222
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 1: particular type of material. Oh absolutely, but but okay, so

223
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 1: aside from those pollution related drawbacks that we mentioned earlier.

224
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,679
Speaker 1: There are unfortunately some others with this material. We touched

225
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,440
Speaker 1: on them briefly in the previous episode, but let's go

226
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,679
Speaker 1: a little bit further into them. However, before we do so,

227
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 1: let us take a quick break to thank our sponsor.

228
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: I like saving the negative stuff for after the sponsor break.

229
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,440
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some draw backs, all right. So we

230
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,160
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in our first episode in fact, that carbon

231
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 1: fiber is expensive, and we mean really expensive. It's like

232
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 1: ten dollars a pound on the low end, whereas steel

233
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: is something like a dollar per pound. Now we should

234
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 1: say this is an improvement from twenty years ago. In right,

235
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 1: carbon fiber back then cost a hundred and fifty bucks

236
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 1: a pound, So the prices dropped precipitously, one might say,

237
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 1: since the nineties. Still more expensive than steel. Yeah, and

238
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 1: and the price is because of that really intricate manufacturing

239
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 1: process that we've just talked through. Um, the raw materials

240
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 1: are more like four dollars per pound, which, to be fair,

241
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,959
Speaker 1: is still four times what steel costs. Yeah, I mean,

242
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,199
Speaker 1: you're you. And that's just to make those raw materials

243
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,199
Speaker 1: I mean, or by those raw materials before you put

244
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 1: them through the carbon fiber process. So what exactly is

245
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: making the process expensive? Okay? First off, those furnaces, Uh,

246
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,320
Speaker 1: not the original furnaces, not oxidization, but the car ization, right. Uh,

247
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 1: they run around or even an excess of a thousand

248
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:09,600
Speaker 1: degrees celsius, which is over eighteen hundred degrees fahrenheit, Meaning

249
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: you've got a really big power bill. I always worry

250
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,960
Speaker 1: if I've let the oven on. Yeah, the process uses

251
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,080
Speaker 1: some five times more energy than steel production. Okay. Also,

252
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 1: venting the waste materials safely is expensive. We talked about

253
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: how carbon monoxide is one of the big things that's

254
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: led out in this process, right right, Um, and uh,

255
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: weaving the stuff for maximum safety is expensive. You have

256
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: to use a lot of fibers to compensate for for

257
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: potential imperfections in the weave that could cause strain and

258
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 1: eventual breakage within the fabric. Um. Also, it takes longer

259
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 1: to create a piece than it does to just stamp

260
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 1: out a piece of steel. You know, it's it's this

261
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,480
Speaker 1: huge three part process. Um. It takes an hour to

262
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 1: cure the resin alone. So we're talking, we're talking about

263
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 1: bunches of time. Okay, But all right, I see here

264
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: you actually looked more into the reson itself. I'm really

265
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 1: interested in this process, right, Okay, So if you make

266
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: it with the most common resin, which is thermos set resin,

267
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 1: it's in that shape forever. Um. It's it's really difficult

268
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: to reef or melt down or recycle thermo set resin

269
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 1: carbon fiber. Um if you do try to recycle this stuff,

270
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: that the resulting carbon fiber is weaker, it's too weak

271
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 1: to be used, for example, in a car body for

272
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 1: for safety standards. So there's greater potential for waste in

273
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 1: both manufacturing and the post consumer market. I mean, if

274
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,360
Speaker 1: if you set this thing wrong, it's I mean you've

275
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 1: basically just wasted this huge, expensive process. So if your

276
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: molds are off even by a little bit, then you're

277
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,720
Speaker 1: you're stuck with the shape that you've got and you

278
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 1: can't easily break it down and just make a new

279
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: one because it's going to be less strong. They'll be

280
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 1: too weak to really possibly depending upon what the application was. Yeah. Yeah,

281
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 1: so that that's a big drawback. Yeah. Um, there are

282
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 1: some possible solutions to us that the industry is looking

283
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: into other than the manufacturing streamlining that Jonathan was talking

284
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: about earlier, UM, and those are using strong acrylics in

285
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 1: place of carbon fibers, or perhaps in combination with carbon fibers. UM,

286
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 1: they're experimenting with heating the stuff with plasma instead of

287
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 1: the thermal furnaces that are currently in use. You know,

288
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 1: I love plasma furnaces. They're pretty they're pretty cool. Not

289
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,800
Speaker 1: literally link about plasma furnaces, so UM or or possibly

290
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: using re multiple thermoplastic resins in place of the permanent

291
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 1: thermoset resins that are currently in use. Now that's interesting. Now,

292
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 1: obviously with that particular approach, you would have to make

293
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,560
Speaker 1: sure whatever application you are using, uh, the carbon fiber

294
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 1: for wasn't going to bring it into contact with temperatures

295
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 1: too high. So obviously, like exactly that would be. That

296
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 1: would be one where I think the permanent thermo set

297
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 1: would definitely be the way to go because they undergo

298
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,240
Speaker 1: such extremes and temperature that anything that could potentially weaken

299
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 1: the the structure would be a big negative for that

300
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 1: particular application. Sure, one more downside before we get onto

301
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 1: happier news though, UM, the a lot of the precursor

302
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 1: materials are petroleum based, and so you know, which which

303
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 1: obviously petroleum is an expensive and non renewable resource unless

304
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,040
Speaker 1: you've got a few billion years to play with. Yeah,

305
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,160
Speaker 1: if you don't mind, you know, stretching out your lifespan

306
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 1: too beyond what is conceivable, then you're fine. But otherwise

307
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: you could reach a point where in years we're gonna

308
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 1: have the singularity. That's true. That's so, I guess millions

309
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,640
Speaker 1: of years. I guess it's really millions, not billions of years.

310
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 1: I apologize, guys, hundreds of millions of years. So it's fine.

311
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 1: I was overstating things exaggeration in order to make a point.

312
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: But but so researchers are looking into renewable precursors like

313
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: ann which is a would byproduct that would be really useful.

314
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,119
Speaker 1: So it's kind of funny too, because in a way

315
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: it's looking back to the earliest days of carbon fibers,

316
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: where we were using cotton and bamboo to create carbon fiber. Now,

317
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the other benefits when when

318
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,120
Speaker 1: you treat this carbon fiber with the right resin, ends

319
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 1: up being resistant to corrosives, which makes it an ideal

320
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 1: material for pipes that tend to carry corrosive liquids. And

321
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 1: their fatigue properties are better than any metal. So by

322
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,920
Speaker 1: having these pipes, you don't have to worry about them

323
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 1: wearing out as quickly. They're not going to corrode based

324
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 1: upon whatever materials moving through them, and they are themselves

325
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: and nerts, so you don't have to worry about chemical

326
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: reactions going on in there. So that would be one

327
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: of the big benefits if we were able to make

328
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 1: enough of it to be used in that kind of infrastructure. Sure.

329
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 1: Also that strength uh really is impressive. Formula one race

330
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: cars are made all of carbon fiber. Well, I guess

331
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 1: not all of carbon fiber. I mean, you know they've

332
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 1: got pieces, right, but the body is uh, and that's

333
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 1: more as a safety regulation than anything else. So so

334
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,200
Speaker 1: if we could bring down the cost of the manufacturer,

335
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 1: it could potentially save lives. Sure yeah, yeah, you know,

336
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 1: you end up making even basic car designs much stronger

337
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 1: just by switching the materials they're made out of. And then, uh,

338
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 1: something kind of cool that I read before we started,

339
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 1: uh really getting into this podcast. It was just a neat,

340
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: little little news item, and uh, I encourage folks who

341
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 1: are interested to go and look up the Mark one

342
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 1: three D printer. It's billed as the world's first three

343
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 1: D printer designed to print continuous carbon fiber. So it

344
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: uses a process called composite filament fabrication or CFF, which

345
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 1: embeds continuous strands of fibers in a thermoplastic matrix. So

346
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 1: you could actually print carbon fiber pieces like you could

347
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 1: print various components in carbon fiber, right with that thermoplastic

348
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: that I was talking about being being remoltable and remoltable,

349
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: and so you might be thinking, hey, how much would

350
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: one of these things run me? So if you want

351
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,160
Speaker 1: to pre order one of these, because they don't they

352
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: haven't been out on the market yet, you can pre

353
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 1: order one. Uh the cost is a lowly four thousand dollars,

354
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 1: which you know printers really isn't that expensive. I mean,

355
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: if you're looking at at three D printers that are

356
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 1: printing in UH an a BS plastic, which is typically

357
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: what other three D printers use, those tend to be

358
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 1: less expensive, but a BS plastics not as strong. In fact,

359
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 1: the print of material materials are supposed to be up

360
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 1: to twenty times stiffer and five times stronger than a

361
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 1: BS plastic parts. So if you are building things that

362
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: have a lot of wear to them over time. This

363
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: could be a good solution because it means you don't

364
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: have to print replacements as frequently. Sure, although I mean

365
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: I imagine that the cash to purchase the materials to

366
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: put into your printer. Yeah, it might be more expensive

367
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 1: to get the actual like quote unquote the toner than

368
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: a BS, So that is something else to take into consideration.

369
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, so this material has has a huge amount

370
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 1: of current use and future promise. Yeah. In fact, I

371
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: remember some people even going so far as to look

372
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: into the use of carbon fibers as a potential tether

373
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: material for space elevator. But as it turns out when

374
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: you do the math, it looks like, uh, carbon fibers

375
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't be strong enough. It wouldn't have the tin sile

376
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 1: strength to withstand the forces. Yeah, because it's not quite

377
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: as strong as carbon nanotubes. I mean, the problem with

378
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: carbonano tubes being there that you know you can't get

379
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 1: them as long as you can carbon. Yeah, producing carbon

380
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: nanotubes is a big problem right now. Like, while we're

381
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: getting closer and closer to to really efficient means of

382
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 1: making carbon fiber more plentiful, due to the manufacturing process

383
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: improvements over time. We're a long way with carbon nanotubes.

384
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen some promising developments, but you know

385
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 1: it's still going to be a while. But anyway, really

386
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: cool stuff. Thank you so much again, Matt for your suggestion.

387
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: We greatly appreciate it. Yes, if you would like to

388
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: be like Matt and send in an awesome suggestion for

389
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: a future episode of tech Stuff, here's what you need

390
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: to do. You can send us a message via Facebook, Twitter,

391
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: or Tumbler or handle at all three is tech Stuff

392
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: hs W or try our brand new email address that

393
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: we don't know works yet but we're hopeful as of

394
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: the recording of this podcast on May, it's up in

395
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: the air. It doesn't extually change it over tonight or

396
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: tomorrow or supposedly, so we don't know exactly when that

397
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: new address is going to be totally working. Maybe by

398
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: the time this podcast comes out. It's fine. That address,

399
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: by the way, I know you're dying to know is

400
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com. So if

401
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: you would like send us a little test message say

402
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 1: hey guys, love the show, or bring back listener mail

403
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: and the Clackson sound effect or or or you know,

404
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: I want to hear HBO part for just let us

405
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: know what you think and uh and we'll be happy

406
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: to we read every single message. We do. We will

407
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: take your ideas duly into consideration. UM perhaps forget to

408
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: ever respond to you, but but but know that we are,

409
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: we are reading, and we love you guys, and thank

410
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: you so much for for supporting us, because getting those

411
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,239
Speaker 1: messages from you really make both of our existences. At

412
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: any rate, we are very happy to conclude this discussion.

413
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: We will come back next week with some golden oldies

414
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: for you. Actually yeah, and we will taught you again

415
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: really soon for more on this and thousands of other

416
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: topics because it has staff works dot com