Speaker 1: On the latest season of the Next Question with Katie
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Speaker 1: I thought I could just get back to my life,
Speaker 1: and that was impossible. It was not going to be
Speaker 1: the same. There's plenty of Katie's signature curiosity and no
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Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time together around a dining
Speaker 1: room table here and in the city, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was a very intense experience. All episodes of Next
Speaker 1: Question with Katie Couric are available now. Listen on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm so excited
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Speaker 1: I'm Steve Carrell and I played Michael Scott on the Office. Well,
Speaker 1: hello everyone, Yes it is time. It's the one you've
Speaker 1: been waiting for. I'm sure. Well. First of all, welcome
Speaker 1: to this week's episode of the Office Deep Dive. I
Speaker 1: am your host, Brian Baumgartner. I got ahead of myself.
Speaker 1: I could not be any more excited to present my
Speaker 1: guest today, Mr Steve Carrell. Now, Steve was the star
Speaker 1: of the two thousand seven comedy of an Almighty Alright, No,
Speaker 1: but I mean talk about someone who truly needs no introduction,
Speaker 1: which is probably a good thing, because there's literally old
Speaker 1: way that I could put into words just how incredible
Speaker 1: Steve is. Even though it's like my job, my entire
Speaker 1: job is just to put things into words and I
Speaker 1: clearly can't. Um, maybe this is the best way to
Speaker 1: explain it. During this conversation, the one you're about to hear,
Speaker 1: Steve basically said that it is so hard to talk
Speaker 1: about the office without hyperbole. That he didn't want to
Speaker 1: be like it's the greatest or you know whatever, but honestly,
Speaker 1: that is how I feel about Steve. It's really hard
Speaker 1: to talk about Steve without hyperbole because he truly is
Speaker 1: the absolute greatest. I could go on forever, and I
Speaker 1: I kind of do in this conversation. So let me
Speaker 1: just say this. I hope you enjoy this just as
Speaker 1: much as I did. Here he is the incomparable Steve Correll.
Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak on
Speaker 1: bubble and squeaker cookie, every moment, lift over from the
Speaker 1: night before. Oh my god, are you that's so good?
Speaker 1: It's so good. God, I know I was just saved
Speaker 1: your producer. Yes, where do you you want me here?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? How was life? I mean, sorry, I'm late.
Speaker 1: I know. I literally just saw and I texted I said,
Speaker 1: he's ten minutes late. But that's now, so, um, are
Speaker 1: you still doing the thing where you because you bought
Speaker 1: the General Store? Right, is that that's still your So
Speaker 1: I was somewhere and New York or something and someone
Speaker 1: came up and had something for me to sign somewhere.
Speaker 1: They knew it clearly I was going to be and
Speaker 1: they had this thing. And I said, oh, you got
Speaker 1: you've got Steve. I said, I don't. I don't normally
Speaker 1: see h Steve. And he said, once a year you
Speaker 1: do a day, is it true? Your laughing? The year
Speaker 1: you do a day where you signed at the General Store. Well,
Speaker 1: they every year this radio station does a little remote
Speaker 1: from the porch of the General Store. Okay, and just
Speaker 1: to promote the store, and my sister in law runs it,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's sort of a festive kickoff of
Speaker 1: summer thing. And I go and I do an interview
Speaker 1: with them on the porch, and like ten fift people
Speaker 1: would show up and watch it. And then if anyone,
Speaker 1: you know, if anyone wanted an autograph or picture, Right's day?
Speaker 1: And I do with that. So this guy claimed he
Speaker 1: stayed for hours it this last year was because there
Speaker 1: were a lot more people there. Because I think with
Speaker 1: the office, I think the fact that I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've talked a lot too many people about exactly that.
Speaker 1: But boy, in the past couple of years, that's changed,
Speaker 1: just that the tone of that has changed, that that
Speaker 1: little get together. I mean, you're very, very fancy movie
Speaker 1: star now, but much like how much is it for
Speaker 1: you now? The office still oh, most of it, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's right, yeah, I Um, I saw Creed and on
Speaker 1: Space Force. I'm working with a bunch of office and
Speaker 1: I think everyone feels that same sort of It's just odd.
Speaker 1: It's odd that when we were doing the show, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure you feel the same way, we're sort of
Speaker 1: in a vacuum to a certain extent. I never got
Speaker 1: the sense that the show was a hit by any means,
Speaker 1: or it was popular enough to keep it on the air.
Speaker 1: But we didn't have people hanging outside the sound stages.
Speaker 1: Very rarely, occasionally we'd have a bogey stopped by very rare,
Speaker 1: very incredibly rare. Did that ever happen? So um, and
Speaker 1: we were ound in the middle of nowhere shooting the thing.
Speaker 1: So I think none of us got a sense that,
Speaker 1: which was great because then it was just about doing
Speaker 1: the show and having fun and bonding and and doing
Speaker 1: good work. Everyone was so committed to it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: these past couple of years. I'll tell you, when I
Speaker 1: really noticed it was when I was taking my daughter
Speaker 1: to her college. We we did tours and and this
Speaker 1: was to two years ago. Now, I had no idea
Speaker 1: that it was as popular on college campuses that it
Speaker 1: seems to become. And it kind of freaked my daughter
Speaker 1: out a little bit because it became a bit of
Speaker 1: a thing, and you know, she was fine. But I
Speaker 1: think that was the first I mean, and that was
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago, the first sense that
Speaker 1: I got that it it had changed, you know, that
Speaker 1: temperature had changed a bit. Yeah, I feel like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's crazy because we were the number one scripted show
Speaker 1: on NBC for a long time. Were we were, but
Speaker 1: they had enough that they had nothing, I guess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but it's so much bigger now. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: definitely changed, and it's you know, how can you not
Speaker 1: be happy about that that people found it because I
Speaker 1: think when we were doing it, we all felt it
Speaker 1: was special. We all felt that there were there were
Speaker 1: elements of the show that I feel like people have
Speaker 1: they see it um more fully upon repeated view. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it was complex, and I think more more so
Speaker 1: than I think people assumed it was initially. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't want to out it too much because that's
Speaker 1: the other thing. I don't want to sit back and say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's a classic, and it's this
Speaker 1: and that and that's why people love it. I I'm
Speaker 1: I'm surprised, frankly that it had the second life that
Speaker 1: it seems to have and people have. We've talked about it.
Speaker 1: I've talked to Nancy about it, my wife about why,
Speaker 1: well for starters, why was it able to stay on
Speaker 1: the air in the first place, because it was a
Speaker 1: remake of a very heralded show and it did not
Speaker 1: get good reviews out of the block and everyone. I
Speaker 1: remember before I auditioned, I was talking to Paul Rudd
Speaker 1: and and I'd never seen the original one, and he
Speaker 1: asked what I was up to. This was around I
Speaker 1: think it was right after Anchor Man I was going
Speaker 1: to audition, and uh, I told him I was going
Speaker 1: to audition for the American version of the Office and
Speaker 1: he said, d don't do it. Oh bad dad, move dude.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's never going to be as good like
Speaker 1: what everybody was saying. So it's I think a miracle
Speaker 1: that it was that it even lasted, you know, that
Speaker 1: first second season. I mean it was like every we
Speaker 1: get two episodes, then they'd move it up to six episodes,
Speaker 1: so the orders weren't There was a lot of confidence
Speaker 1: in this show for a long time. Yeah. My favorite review,
Speaker 1: there's a gentleman by the name of David ban Coolie.
Speaker 1: He wrote the following This is after the pilot where
Speaker 1: Ricky Gervais let the bosses insecurity shine through. Steve Carrell
Speaker 1: is all noise and stupidity, like a sketch comedy character,
Speaker 1: not a real person, not just foolish, but a fool. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was never I mean he was never a fan
Speaker 1: of the show. He never was. I know him. I
Speaker 1: don't know him personally, but I know I've read other
Speaker 1: things that he's written about the show, and it was
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know who he wrote for,
Speaker 1: but that was it wasn't just him. I think it
Speaker 1: was kind of that was pretty common. I think across
Speaker 1: the board there was not a lot of critical love
Speaker 1: for the show, which is interesting because I think we
Speaker 1: all just disagreed. I think we felt like we were
Speaker 1: onto something and it wasn't the British version, and it
Speaker 1: was something unto itself. It was based on all of
Speaker 1: the components that we're making it up. I think Greg
Speaker 1: daniels Man one of I think his great talents is
Speaker 1: choosing people, choosing people who have chemistry, both professionally and personally.
Speaker 1: Everybody got along, I mean people, We loved each other
Speaker 1: on that show. I mean what, I just walked in
Speaker 1: a zoo. I felt like crying. It's it's it was
Speaker 1: such a special thing, I think to all of us,
Speaker 1: and I think we're all very protective of it. And
Speaker 1: you know, reviews good, bad, it's it's okay totally. People
Speaker 1: have their own opinions and they're entitled to them, and
Speaker 1: I you can't take any of that too seriously. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, I think we all had confidence
Speaker 1: that we were doing doing something good and doing something
Speaker 1: of value. From Diversity Day, I remember sitting in that
Speaker 1: conference room going, if people give this thing a shot,
Speaker 1: this is funny and it's doing something different. It's looking
Speaker 1: at the world outside in an interesting and complex way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you how do you feel like the show reflected
Speaker 1: the outside world? You know, in terms of like Diversity
Speaker 1: Day or gay witch Hunt or well, starting with the
Speaker 1: quality of our writing staff those first few seasons, especially
Speaker 1: before everyone became big deals and went off to their
Speaker 1: own shows. I mean, that's what happens. You get you
Speaker 1: get these great people like Mindy Kaling and Mike Sure
Speaker 1: and we had a ton of them. We had a
Speaker 1: really really deep bench of writers. And when you have
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are that funny and that's
Speaker 1: smart um. For me, the hardest part of it was
Speaker 1: servicing the scripts, making sure I didn't because I get
Speaker 1: I get dialogue every day and think, I can't screw
Speaker 1: this up because it and it and I knew it
Speaker 1: had to be delivered in in just the right way
Speaker 1: because or otherwise you're not servicing this great writing. So
Speaker 1: I think that, I think, and I think we all
Speaker 1: felt that there was a responsibility to get it right
Speaker 1: because the writer the writing was so consistent in terms
Speaker 1: of how it reflected society, but to do it in
Speaker 1: a way that wasn't too heavy handed and felt organic
Speaker 1: to what we were doing as characters. And that was
Speaker 1: the other great part of having Run. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was there for seven years. You were there for nine too,
Speaker 1: to be able to trace the evolution of a character
Speaker 1: and have something in mind, and be able to talk
Speaker 1: to the writers and talk to Greg Daniels and say,
Speaker 1: what if next season my character went in this direction,
Speaker 1: and and then it happened. Um, And I think everyone
Speaker 1: trusted each other to such a such a degree that
Speaker 1: you know, that was pete that they were. They were
Speaker 1: willing to, you know, not be too precious about anything,
Speaker 1: and I think it became better because of that. Greg
Speaker 1: told me something I did not know this, Maybe you
Speaker 1: knew this, I mean, obviously. One thing that he did
Speaker 1: that was unique was he sort of tried to obliterate
Speaker 1: the barriers between the writer's room and and the actors,
Speaker 1: because he said, for him, this show was about behavior,
Speaker 1: and you can't write behavior, you can't write body posture,
Speaker 1: you can't write a specific look on your face, which
Speaker 1: I thought was so interesting. That's really smart. I know
Speaker 1: I never heard that, but it completely makes sense. And
Speaker 1: the fact that so many of the writers were actors
Speaker 1: on the show, not just watching. Another thing I liked
Speaker 1: was that when we were on set, it was pretty
Speaker 1: much just us and the camera crew and the director
Speaker 1: all the time, so it felt as close to what
Speaker 1: we were supposed to be doing. Um, you know, it
Speaker 1: was as close to doing a documentary without actually doing
Speaker 1: one as it could feel. But yeah, having writers there
Speaker 1: and seeing how the actor's work and maybe tweak a
Speaker 1: line or improvise and find something, and to have you know,
Speaker 1: to have Mindy, to have Paul, have b j All
Speaker 1: there not just as actors but as fuel and and
Speaker 1: having incredible suggestions or ideas or or things to throw
Speaker 1: in rewrites. I mean, I don't know how much footage
Speaker 1: there is on the cutting room floor, but you could
Speaker 1: edit an entire season for sure, of of stories, whole
Speaker 1: storylines that were cut out that we're hilarious and we're
Speaker 1: just cut for time. I mean, our scripts were long,
Speaker 1: and our first cuts of things they had to be
Speaker 1: what twenty minutes, and they'd have thirty five minute cuts
Speaker 1: their first cut, forty minute cuts. Sometimes they just split
Speaker 1: them in half and we'd have two shows. That happened
Speaker 1: a couple of times. Do you remember was there anything
Speaker 1: for you that you recall that was cut? People ask like,
Speaker 1: was there anything that was cut either a story or
Speaker 1: I mean, I there, no, I'm I don't. I just
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean I would see things in there
Speaker 1: and think, oh, yeah, I remember, I remember we shot that.
Speaker 1: That's right, I know. I recently we went back and
Speaker 1: watched the whole thing. Claire Scanlin told me the story,
Speaker 1: which I certainly did not remember. But there was an
Speaker 1: episode where Jim and Pam are fighting, and the episode
Speaker 1: came in and it was really long, and someone had
Speaker 1: the idea, well, let's just make it a silent fight,
Speaker 1: and it's just going to be about looks like we're
Speaker 1: not going to have them, We're gonna cut any exchange
Speaker 1: between the two of them, and the episode is just
Speaker 1: going to exist as a silent fight throughout the whole thing.
Speaker 1: And at the very end, just as they're walking out
Speaker 1: to their car, they hold hands and it just like
Speaker 1: flips the whole thing, but the entire story that had
Speaker 1: been written and was just gone. That's such a great
Speaker 1: That's a great move though, and probably so much more
Speaker 1: powerful than all the dial long they could have said,
Speaker 1: you know, because that that passive, aggressive, that subtle silent
Speaker 1: between couples can speak volumes. Not that I would have
Speaker 1: any personal knowledge of that, certainly, I'm just saying as
Speaker 1: a writer an actor, Um, but yeah, that's a great move,
Speaker 1: and I think they did stuff like that all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, those editors. We had some great, great people,
Speaker 1: and so much of the story obviously is told there,
Speaker 1: and I felt like our job was just to supply
Speaker 1: them with as much fodder for whatever it was going
Speaker 1: to become. But I didn't get precious about anything because
Speaker 1: I just knew Again it's just a matter of trust.
Speaker 1: I trusted Greg and Dave and Claire, and I trusted
Speaker 1: everyone in the cast and all of those writers. That's
Speaker 1: such a great environment to work in when you just know,
Speaker 1: do your job and they're going to take it and
Speaker 1: crafted into something that works. And I think everyone did
Speaker 1: that everyone. So the level I don't think what people
Speaker 1: no necessarily is that as much, if not more than
Speaker 1: anything I've ever worked on. The universal level of commitment
Speaker 1: on that show across the board, actors, writers, crew, people
Speaker 1: were in and it's rare, but I think we all
Speaker 1: sensed it. We all knew And it's not like the show.
Speaker 1: We we were never a friends, we were never we
Speaker 1: were always sort of the the outcast, you know, the
Speaker 1: little engine for sure, And we got those kind of
Speaker 1: reviews we never you know, there were never articles written
Speaker 1: about the office back then. But I personally so proud
Speaker 1: of the fact that, in spite of all of the
Speaker 1: negativity that I think kind of surrounded it, at least
Speaker 1: at first, that group was completely committed. I I feel
Speaker 1: like we all sort of it was like we came
Speaker 1: up together, which which helped us form a very unique bond.
Speaker 1: I completely agree the relationships between all of us um
Speaker 1: and again doing this other show that I'm doing now.
Speaker 1: Just being able to work with you know, five six,
Speaker 1: seven people that I had worked with for seven years,
Speaker 1: what fifteen years ago, It just try it just goes
Speaker 1: from one thing to the other because there is there
Speaker 1: is that commonality, there is that that sense of we
Speaker 1: we came up together. It's so hard to talk about
Speaker 1: it without hyperbole, too, because I find myself like it's
Speaker 1: the great you know. I don't want to I don't
Speaker 1: want to touted too much. I don't want to put
Speaker 1: too much emphasis on how how great we don't think
Speaker 1: it was. But I mean, you know, people can judge
Speaker 1: whatever the show is and however they like it, and
Speaker 1: they'll upon repeated viewings, they you know, if they find
Speaker 1: all of this stuff in it, and that is great.
Speaker 1: But from a personal perspective having worked on it was
Speaker 1: the joy like having these friendships and that work experience.
Speaker 1: I knew when I was doing it that this was
Speaker 1: going it. Nothing was going to be better than this
Speaker 1: as a work experience. I didn't know whether it would
Speaker 1: be the best thing I'd ever be a part of,
Speaker 1: or I knew it would be hard to top, certainly,
Speaker 1: But but just in terms of a personal experience and
Speaker 1: the rewards from that, nothing will ever come close to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, for me, certainly, I don't
Speaker 1: want to go into hyperbole either, but I think trying
Speaker 1: to at least examine the question of why, you know,
Speaker 1: we were so close. Maybe it's because we came up together.
Speaker 1: And to me, the other element was we had such
Speaker 1: a wide range of experience, you know, like Rain and
Speaker 1: myself for example, we were like doing check Off the
Speaker 1: month before, you know what I mean, like that and
Speaker 1: improv and stand up and sort of all of those experiences.
Speaker 1: Bill has told me the story, Oh my god, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever heard this. She got cast.
Speaker 1: She came in and she was watching everybody improv and
Speaker 1: she said, I can't do that. So the first season
Speaker 1: she went on her way home, drove to the bookstore
Speaker 1: and bought books on improv and we're reading books she did.
Speaker 1: I never knew that. I'd never do that either. That's
Speaker 1: shocking to me because I always thought she was so pure,
Speaker 1: so good, like one of the best improvisers of any
Speaker 1: of us, because it was everything was completely honest, and
Speaker 1: she just listened and she would just respond and within character.
Speaker 1: That's what it is, you know, that's that's the crux
Speaker 1: of it. Wow, that's I I think all those things
Speaker 1: you say are true. I think the fact that Greg
Speaker 1: was able to cast people that it's just the chemistry
Speaker 1: was there. People genuinely cared about each other because there
Speaker 1: were there were times that people would be in the
Speaker 1: background for hours and just be seen like in profile,
Speaker 1: while other scenes were taking place in the foreground. And
Speaker 1: I never ever heard one complaint by anyone. You know,
Speaker 1: it was to me, it was the true definition of
Speaker 1: an ensemble. More than anything. I think that's why it
Speaker 1: worked is because there were no I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: wanted to stick out in any way. I think everyone
Speaker 1: just felt a joy in being part of that unit.
Speaker 1: When we come back, our executive Sir Ben Silverman joins
Speaker 1: our unit for a conversation about the structure of the show,
Speaker 1: and a little thing called the director sandwich. It's a
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Speaker 1: then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started
Speaker 1: a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it,
Speaker 1: then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks
Speaker 1: for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not
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Speaker 1: But you seem happy, So that's great, kiddo. You ever
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Speaker 1: actually don't. I was talking to a couple of people
Speaker 1: just about I had a French director I worked with
Speaker 1: for a while that he taught me that the comedy
Speaker 1: exists off the beat. It happens either quicker or it
Speaker 1: takes longer that that pause, But did you never land
Speaker 1: it right on the beat? I feel like our show
Speaker 1: did really well on that. It was, you know, for example,
Speaker 1: a bad joke that then you get a reaction from
Speaker 1: Jim that then you get a reaction from somebody, and
Speaker 1: the laugh could go sort of at any place. And
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on between the lines there,
Speaker 1: and the writers were aware of that. They were aware
Speaker 1: of the pauses. They were aware of like at the
Speaker 1: end of was it it was Office Olympics, there's a
Speaker 1: scene we're all getting ore like ten awards and the
Speaker 1: yogurt the yogurts, and I remember that turned into a
Speaker 1: really emotional moment from Michael Scott because someone was giving
Speaker 1: him an award and it was important in that moment,
Speaker 1: And I was talking to Greg about this, and I
Speaker 1: don't think any of us realized until we started doing
Speaker 1: it that that scene was going to have that sort
Speaker 1: of emotional and comedic residence because it wasn't scripted. It
Speaker 1: was just this moment where Jim looks at Michael and
Speaker 1: realizes this is a big deal, and Michael starts to
Speaker 1: cry out of joy and pride, and it it turned
Speaker 1: into something very different, and I part of the for
Speaker 1: for my character. Part of the trick was to not
Speaker 1: let on where the jokes were because Michael generally wouldn't
Speaker 1: He wouldn't know, he wouldn't have an awareness that anything
Speaker 1: he was saying was funny unless he was trying to
Speaker 1: be funny. So to try to mask the absurdity of
Speaker 1: the line within somebody just believing it and not commenting
Speaker 1: on it as an actor while you say it, not
Speaker 1: not leaning into the joke of the line. I think
Speaker 1: that was something that was really tricky. Did the production
Speaker 1: style help you do that? For sure? The way the
Speaker 1: way that that it wasn't is the production style helped everything, um,
Speaker 1: because there wasn't that. It wasn't intricate. The lighting took
Speaker 1: five minutes and we all looked terrible all the time,
Speaker 1: so there was no vanity involved. Me. That's why the
Speaker 1: networks didn't like it. Probably we all looked like real
Speaker 1: people and we were up. We came out of the
Speaker 1: bay Watch age, you know, we were like we were
Speaker 1: of the last part. We were not. But to kind
Speaker 1: of throw away all the vanity too was very you know,
Speaker 1: that was great because no one was worried about getting
Speaker 1: touched up all the time. We were just kind of
Speaker 1: in our characters and doing our thing, and that not
Speaker 1: what the show is predicated on. And so in that sense,
Speaker 1: I think it felt more like a documentary Tolna authenticity
Speaker 1: and reality, and then the performance, I mean the other level,
Speaker 1: just the camera as a character, as an entirely other
Speaker 1: layer of comedy that doesn't exist even if you're just
Speaker 1: playing out a scene. In other words, your awareness as
Speaker 1: a character. You have your own behavior and your intention
Speaker 1: with this character, but you also are either playing to
Speaker 1: the camera or hiding from the camera. It's been the
Speaker 1: bane of my existence since I've left thee. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure to revert to the other two in everything I've
Speaker 1: done since the office. At least once, I will inadvertently
Speaker 1: do a take to the camera, and I do it
Speaker 1: and then I think, why did I just do that?
Speaker 1: I do too. I mean, obviously we can't use it
Speaker 1: because we're not doing a recumentary here. Yeah, you just
Speaker 1: break that walk, but it's such a weird it's a
Speaker 1: habit do you do with the family, and it's almost
Speaker 1: impossible to break. I'm sure on Fox Catcher I did
Speaker 1: a take to the camera, well maybe not appropriated. Did
Speaker 1: you say this or did Greg say this to you?
Speaker 1: There was some discussion about the essence of Michael Scott
Speaker 1: playing to the camera. Was Michael believing that if he
Speaker 1: did a really good job that maybe Jennifer Anniston would
Speaker 1: go out with him? Do you remember that? I don't
Speaker 1: don't actually remember. Sounds good that somebody said that, like
Speaker 1: the early on, Yeah, I can't remember. If it was
Speaker 1: beguiling the camera gets discovered by you think you're funny,
Speaker 1: you think you're charming, you put your foot in it,
Speaker 1: but you think that you're like, oh, wasn't that a
Speaker 1: good one? Ji? I subtext um. You know who I
Speaker 1: think was the one of the best right off the
Speaker 1: bat was Amy Adams. I remember when she came in
Speaker 1: to do her first episode because it's it's sort of
Speaker 1: a tricky thing that looked to the camera and and
Speaker 1: how hard you play it or how subtly you play it,
Speaker 1: But she had it down. I remember that first episode.
Speaker 1: She because she was aware of the camera, but she
Speaker 1: played it in a very different way, like because she
Speaker 1: was an outsider. She didn't do there like did you
Speaker 1: just record what I just said? There's like I'd forgotten
Speaker 1: that you're there, and now I know you're there, and
Speaker 1: they're like all this other stuff going on. So the camera, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the camera really you could always use it, you know,
Speaker 1: and it was for Michael it was free reign, you know,
Speaker 1: because he could always be on and when the camera
Speaker 1: was documenting things that were more vulnerable that he didn't
Speaker 1: want the camera to see. Uh, you know, you could
Speaker 1: show the fragility of the character as well, and not
Speaker 1: wanting to be captured or kind of assuming a different
Speaker 1: character to cover the fragility that, you know, was intrinsic
Speaker 1: to him. So that camera as a character added I
Speaker 1: think a depth to all of the characters. It's a
Speaker 1: reflection I think of what you want the public to
Speaker 1: see as opposed to what is the reality of the
Speaker 1: situation or the reality of the person, the layering of
Speaker 1: of all of that. Also, as you were talking, I
Speaker 1: was thinking one of the things that's so arresting now
Speaker 1: when you go into our show in the world digitally
Speaker 1: of a thousand shows, and you just see we feel
Speaker 1: black and white, you know, we feel almost and like analog,
Speaker 1: you know, and all of that, and yet it has
Speaker 1: so much more of an honesty connectivity. But I think
Speaker 1: what that does is it frames the performance and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. It lets the face and the performance
Speaker 1: and the pathos and the comedy I'll play through character
Speaker 1: because it's not the bells and whistles and everything jumping around.
Speaker 1: So much of that was just the ensemble nature of
Speaker 1: it too, that it's like it's like a great it's
Speaker 1: like an orchestra, you know, there to know when to
Speaker 1: fade back and allow the brass section to go, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's their soul where it's the violins or it's
Speaker 1: it's such a stupid analogy, but allowing everyone to shine
Speaker 1: and everyone to have their moment. I didn't feel like
Speaker 1: there were all these separate components bouncing off each other.
Speaker 1: It was like this one group energy that moved through
Speaker 1: all of those years together and and it morphed into
Speaker 1: different shapes, but it was all We couldn't lose any
Speaker 1: components of that because it morphed as a whole. It
Speaker 1: was a I don't know, maybe that's getting too deep
Speaker 1: into it, but but that's the way I felt about
Speaker 1: that ensemble, is that everyone was so strong and so
Speaker 1: vital to the life of the whole thing. The show
Speaker 1: could shift on a dime based on one thing that
Speaker 1: one character introduces, and it might be it might be
Speaker 1: a line that was scripted, it might have been something improvised,
Speaker 1: but everyone else would shift with it and you could
Speaker 1: feel it, you know, well, like being a good interviewer
Speaker 1: on the radio, you can tell there's a give and
Speaker 1: take and allowing for space, and it's a it's a
Speaker 1: real talent, it's a real ability. And I think all
Speaker 1: of that cast had that same ability to sense where
Speaker 1: it was all going and it was that was so exciting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's funny too because people talk, and which is all
Speaker 1: true about the ensemble expace ending as time went on
Speaker 1: and we got into more stories of other characters and
Speaker 1: other characters were able to shine, that's true. And pretty
Speaker 1: much everybody did something in Diversity Day, which is the
Speaker 1: second episode, and you know, almost everybody has a joke
Speaker 1: or a moment um. It was being built early and
Speaker 1: I think Ken and Greg those guys, um, do you
Speaker 1: remember the U thirty minutes of busy work? Oh early on? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that's so his thing, right down to how he
Speaker 1: starts to see. He doesn't say action, he says go ahead.
Speaker 1: In the most in the most calm inviting way, go ahead, yeah,
Speaker 1: I will say, like to give him ship. It becomes
Speaker 1: funny to me because he has the it's not just
Speaker 1: to go ahead, it's the uh go ahead like he
Speaker 1: he always pretends as though he's about to say something
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and then what you know, after the time,
Speaker 1: you go, man, you're not. You can't fool me anymore.
Speaker 1: We ever talked about the director sandwich? No, have you
Speaker 1: ever heard of this? I don't know where I heard
Speaker 1: this from, but it is like clockwork. It is the
Speaker 1: experience I've had on every show with every director, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had the same experience. Okay, director Sandwich, Sandwich,
Speaker 1: the director sandwich. The first layer of bread is the
Speaker 1: first compliment. Director comes in. It's going great. We love it.
Speaker 1: Everybody back there loves what you're doing. The meat or
Speaker 1: the filling is the note. Maybe you could pick it
Speaker 1: up and um and maybe a little more touch of energy.
Speaker 1: And the last piece of bread is the second compliment.
Speaker 1: But we love it. You're doing great. Just do what
Speaker 1: you're doing and we're just have fun. Every director does
Speaker 1: exactly this. Just I mean a students, it's in your head.
Speaker 1: You will always be aware of that now, like, oh okay, now,
Speaker 1: where where's this? What is the meat here? What is
Speaker 1: the note? The producer sandwich is no meat? Great jobs?
Speaker 1: You guys? Do you do you ever? This is a
Speaker 1: sort of off topic, but it's now. It's fascinating to
Speaker 1: me when you're in a scene and you get the
Speaker 1: first layer of bread, great job, really really doing well, um, Dave,
Speaker 1: And then turns to the other guy, right, and there's
Speaker 1: a there's a part of you that's like it wasn't me?
Speaker 1: Was everything I must be doing okay? And then they
Speaker 1: give the meat to Dave, and then there's but you
Speaker 1: know it's really it's really working well, and then it's
Speaker 1: take two. Director comes back again. Great job, Dave, Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. I've been Dave before,
Speaker 1: for sure, have been Dave. We all don't want be Dave,
Speaker 1: but we have all been Dad. But it's almost worse
Speaker 1: when you're not Dave. But it's even worse than that
Speaker 1: is when you are tanking a scene and then you're
Speaker 1: seeing partner, when you're trying to get it going again
Speaker 1: and try to figure out how you're gonna save your
Speaker 1: lousy performance, you're seeing partner in a very gracious and
Speaker 1: lovely way, says, is there anything I can do to help?
Speaker 1: Anything I can do from my side? Like, oh no, now,
Speaker 1: now I'm really Dave, Dave, and and they're just being nice.
Speaker 1: Can I give you something, to give you something more
Speaker 1: than I'm giving so your performance is adequate and we
Speaker 1: come back. Steve and I kicked Ben out of the
Speaker 1: studio to get into the true psyche of Michael Scott
Speaker 1: adoption of teens from Foster k. There is a topic
Speaker 1: not enough people know about, and we're here to change that.
Speaker 1: I'm April din What, the host of the new podcast
Speaker 1: Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings
Speaker 1: you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families
Speaker 1: that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us
Speaker 1: Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption
Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U.
Speaker 1: S Department of Health, the Human Service as Administration for
Speaker 1: Children and Families, and the ACT Council. I'm j Calbern,
Speaker 1: host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a
Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts,
Speaker 1: we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped
Speaker 1: a hit man walk free, until one day when he
Speaker 1: started talking with the FBI and promised that he could
Speaker 1: take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying
Speaker 1: to figure out why he flipped and what he was
Speaker 1: really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to
Speaker 1: be true. There's got to be something wrong with this.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust you that guy. He looks like a
Speaker 1: little scum, big liar, stool bidg it you looked like
Speaker 1: what he was or at. I can say with all
Speaker 1: certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have
Speaker 1: to do what he did, and he did it anyway.
Speaker 1: The moment I put the wire around the first time,
Speaker 1: my life was over. If it ever got out, they
Speaker 1: would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep Cover
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: taking you on a search, a search for love. Hard
Speaker 1: working Latina seeks cool, down to earth guy. Swipe swipe sipe.
Speaker 1: It's hard out there for a girl to find Mr Wright.
Speaker 1: I have to meet a lot of Mr Wrong's. He'd
Speaker 1: invite me over to have dinner with his family. I
Speaker 1: knew he didn't tell him that I was transgender. Dating
Speaker 1: as a trans woman can be complicated, but there were
Speaker 1: other reasons. I felt like I couldn't always be myself.
Speaker 1: He's asking me things about my family, like my mom's
Speaker 1: in prison, my grandmother was arrested for working with the
Speaker 1: Mexican drug cartel. This scrumbs my love story. It's a
Speaker 1: show about the things we set up for and the
Speaker 1: bits of ourselves that make us who we are. Listen
Speaker 1: to Crumbs as part of the Michael Luda podcast Network,
Speaker 1: available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. There. There's a question I've
Speaker 1: never asked you. This is my memory, at least going
Speaker 1: back right. You remember things differently. And we would have
Speaker 1: a seven eight page conference room scene and we would
Speaker 1: come into rehearse and you would like kind of flip
Speaker 1: through your pages and you weren't playing a part like
Speaker 1: the absent mind professor. But my this was like my right,
Speaker 1: it was just like oh wait, what are we here?
Speaker 1: How okay? I'm standing in the front of like the
Speaker 1: idea of like you had no idea what was going on?
Speaker 1: And we would do it once maybe and be like, okay,
Speaker 1: do we have it? Okay, good, and you would go
Speaker 1: away and it was like you would finish putting on
Speaker 1: your suit and then we would start rolling and it
Speaker 1: was all there was that intentional for you, was there? No,
Speaker 1: I mean to keep him nothing, but I mean, like,
Speaker 1: were you Like in retrospect, I started thinking, oh, as
Speaker 1: an improver, he wants it to be as fresh as possible.
Speaker 1: Though at times it also got annoying that you were
Speaker 1: attempting to bring the group to a place where like
Speaker 1: you were trying to make them laugh. It was that intentional.
Speaker 1: Was that sometimes? I think we all tried to make
Speaker 1: each other last. Of course, um in turn, boy to me,
Speaker 1: there's nothing more boring than listening to myself talk about process.
Speaker 1: But but that's there. But I'm curious, I will tell well,
Speaker 1: just based on the page count every day, and and
Speaker 1: also on how quickly lines changed, we could have rewrites
Speaker 1: the morning up. So I just didn't have time to
Speaker 1: memorize stuff the night before because they'd be you go home,
Speaker 1: and after yeah, I go to bed and wake up
Speaker 1: and and be in the next day and and sort
Speaker 1: of get into that day's work. But I think it
Speaker 1: became fairly easy to remember stuff because of the writing,
Speaker 1: because I think they tuned into every character's voice and
Speaker 1: they really wrote the dialogue within those voices, and it
Speaker 1: is infinitely easier to remember lines when they make sense
Speaker 1: within your character. So sometimes I would just have to
Speaker 1: look at these long, chunky scenes and I put the
Speaker 1: blocks together in terms of Okay, where are you know,
Speaker 1: where are kind of our joke beats, and where are
Speaker 1: you know where our story beats, and and what shoe
Speaker 1: leather and and just kind of trying to process that
Speaker 1: and then then not think about it, just kind of
Speaker 1: trying to lock in the structure of it and then
Speaker 1: just play the scene. And that was the joy of
Speaker 1: of how loose it all was when we got in
Speaker 1: there to shoot, too, because we'd have two cameras covering everything.
Speaker 1: If you got something, well, once you got it from
Speaker 1: two separate angles, you have cutting points. You know, an
Speaker 1: editor's dream really, because everything was covered at least by
Speaker 1: two cameras. There was never oh so and so said
Speaker 1: something funny, but it was you know, it was a
Speaker 1: single on some body else, and then to try to
Speaker 1: go back and recreate whatever it happened. They were picking
Speaker 1: up a lot of stuff, and so when things things
Speaker 1: happen in real time, generally they were able to get it. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's a comfort in that too, knowing that it's
Speaker 1: not like you were going to have to generate it
Speaker 1: many many times over, and you could make every take different.
Speaker 1: You didn't have to necessarily match what you did the
Speaker 1: first time. You could play with it, and as actors,
Speaker 1: we could all throw stuff in and and try it different,
Speaker 1: you know, beat for the ending or um try some
Speaker 1: you know, some different dialogue. But in terms of yeah,
Speaker 1: those those long scenes, I just I just didn't want
Speaker 1: to waste anybody's time either because if I had fumfered
Speaker 1: through all of those things, and I tried to put
Speaker 1: enough pressure on myself to lock into it, you know,
Speaker 1: and try to not make everybody stay because I can't
Speaker 1: remember the big speech at the end of the thing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's part of it. I mean, just just out
Speaker 1: of respect for everybody. Of course, of course that was
Speaker 1: always just very impressive. That's it. I'm not I'm not no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything nice, um, but but no, it
Speaker 1: was I often wondered about that. I mean Rain Wilson. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know the two of you together,
Speaker 1: it was so stupid, so stupid, but so funny. I
Speaker 1: recently went back and watched I went start to finish.
Speaker 1: I hadn't gone back at all since they aired. And
Speaker 1: just the dynamic between the two of you, It's like
Speaker 1: when you're in grade school and there's the cool kids,
Speaker 1: right the Ryan and Jim, and you want to be
Speaker 1: friends with them, and then you've got the kind of
Speaker 1: slightly more nerdy friend of yours that wants to be
Speaker 1: when you're like, just call me after school. You wan't
Speaker 1: play with you later because I'm trying to get in.
Speaker 1: I don't know. There was just something about the dynamic
Speaker 1: between you two. He called you a Picasso of improv.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. But I mean, well he you know,
Speaker 1: I remember auditioning with Rain and we instantly we're making
Speaker 1: each other laugh, like right from the start. And I'll
Speaker 1: crack up as much as anyone, but I try not
Speaker 1: to because I always feel like if I laugh, it's
Speaker 1: going to ruin that whatever they're doing is so funny,
Speaker 1: and if I crack up, it's unusable. But there there
Speaker 1: there are times that I'm sure you can watch the
Speaker 1: show and just see tears well in my eyes. That
Speaker 1: was one of the hardest That was one of the
Speaker 1: hardest things was to not you know, to not lose it. Raindom.
Speaker 1: He's such an interesting just an interesting human being. He's
Speaker 1: he's such a kind He's such a dichotomy because he is.
Speaker 1: He's an incredibly loving and kind and gentle like cares
Speaker 1: truly truly care, someone who cares about the universe in
Speaker 1: a far reaching way, and a much much better person
Speaker 1: than I am for me, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: the biggest cremudgeon. It's like crass, rude, rudous, rude, like
Speaker 1: unfiltered honesty and yes, yes, just gross sexual for no reason.
Speaker 1: But gosh, he's he's a great guy. And there's a
Speaker 1: scene towards the end when Dwight reads the letter of
Speaker 1: reference from Michael Scott that just puts a pretty fine
Speaker 1: point on their relationship after all of the stuff that
Speaker 1: had Michael has put Dwight through. At his core, he
Speaker 1: just he he loves, he loves him and appreciates him
Speaker 1: and understands how loyal he had been that entire time
Speaker 1: and had for the greater part of the series, had
Speaker 1: really been his only advocate, and Michael for sure understood
Speaker 1: that he didn't. Maybe he might have resented it. He
Speaker 1: white might have wanted more. You know, he could be
Speaker 1: very petty and immature, but but at the same time,
Speaker 1: in that moment, you know certainly acknowledges how important Dwight
Speaker 1: is to him. Do you, as an actor, do you
Speaker 1: always search for the good and the character that you're portraying. Sure?
Speaker 1: I think you have to because otherwise you're just demonizing
Speaker 1: or judging the people that you're playing. And if you're
Speaker 1: judging a character that you're playing, you're gonna play it differently.
Speaker 1: You don't want to editorialize about a character your plan.
Speaker 1: I think I think Michael's a decent a decent dude
Speaker 1: with a lot of heart. But he's so based on
Speaker 1: his childhood, based on all sorts of things and things
Speaker 1: that he had lacked growing up, things that he was
Speaker 1: I felt he was deprived of. He was so hungry
Speaker 1: for acceptance. But I don't think he had the strongest
Speaker 1: templates in the world to go by. But I think
Speaker 1: he also learned and evolved and um became a better
Speaker 1: person along the way. And he was just a bit
Speaker 1: a bit myopic and became more aware. Once he sort
Speaker 1: of was able to start stepping outside of himself and
Speaker 1: his own little eccentricities, he could see a little bit
Speaker 1: more about the world around him. I think one of
Speaker 1: the things about Michael is he's actually this and in
Speaker 1: terms of my interpretation of him, I feel like he
Speaker 1: would look out at all the people who worked with him,
Speaker 1: and it's like he would put his foot in his
Speaker 1: mouth all the time. But in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever valued one person or type
Speaker 1: of person over any other. And in that way, I
Speaker 1: think he was very pure character, because he's very dumb
Speaker 1: in terms of political correctness and being appropriate in public.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't I just don't
Speaker 1: think there was hardness in his heart towards anyone. Yes,
Speaker 1: I agree with he I think a person with an
Speaker 1: enormously good, kind heart, who lacked a great deal of
Speaker 1: information about the world around him and was as a
Speaker 1: sleep in a woke world as you could be, but
Speaker 1: trying his best, trying his best. And actually there's a
Speaker 1: difference between being intolerant and being ignorant, and and sometimes
Speaker 1: intolerance and ignorance go hand in hand. For sure they do,
Speaker 1: but I think he was a decent human being. Really,
Speaker 1: he just didn't get it. All the time, Um, the
Speaker 1: show was happening my mom and dad, they had friends
Speaker 1: and they would say, we can't watch that show like that,
Speaker 1: Michael scotty Key makes me too uncomfortable. I can't watch that.
Speaker 1: And I always felt that this was came from a
Speaker 1: place of deep insecurity or like misogynistic or racist or
Speaker 1: homophobic feelings within themselves, like that's why it was uncomfortable
Speaker 1: at times. And then you came out. Thanks a lot
Speaker 1: for saying this. I get asked about it all the
Speaker 1: time that the show could never be made. Now, this
Speaker 1: was not exactly what I said. Okay, well that's great
Speaker 1: because I have always said that I thought that Steve
Speaker 1: was misquoted in this. I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it could be made now. Maybe it could. I
Speaker 1: guess my point was that I think what I was
Speaker 1: trying to say was that that exact same show probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't be made today, but with the same components, the
Speaker 1: same actors, the same writers, if it were to come back,
Speaker 1: it would evolve into version of what we did back then.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the writing would be a bit
Speaker 1: different in today's climate. But I don't think it would
Speaker 1: be any less insightful. I don't think it would be
Speaker 1: any less smart or any less funny. It would just
Speaker 1: be different, that's all. And I do think it would
Speaker 1: be different. And I think, I mean, Michael Scott would
Speaker 1: be much more tuned into what it is to be woke.
Speaker 1: He would not understand it necessarily, but he would be.
Speaker 1: The comedy would be coming from his struggle to understand
Speaker 1: and fit into the world as we know it today,
Speaker 1: because the world as we knew it fifteen years ago
Speaker 1: is different than it is today. But you know, you
Speaker 1: take that same character who is trying to speak the
Speaker 1: language of modern times, that can be very funny, but
Speaker 1: it would just be different. It would just be a
Speaker 1: different set of rules for today. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I I think, you know, I think it's easy to
Speaker 1: say that you can't be funny, you can't do comedy
Speaker 1: this day and age. I think that's a bit of
Speaker 1: a cop out because every you know, every time you
Speaker 1: turn around, there is somebody coming up with something that
Speaker 1: is of the time and inventive and doesn't shirk away
Speaker 1: from our responsibility to look in the mirror. I think
Speaker 1: it just I think it just takes a level of
Speaker 1: intelligence to be able to do that. Yeah, here's my
Speaker 1: other theory, just in terms of like why the show
Speaker 1: is so popular today and especially with younger people and
Speaker 1: me going back and watching it, and it doesn't feel dated.
Speaker 1: And Greg was so adamant about the realistic elements of
Speaker 1: the way people looked and that it felt lived in
Speaker 1: and the way that it's shot. I feel like it
Speaker 1: maybe subconsciously people are they obviously no, it's not a documentary,
Speaker 1: but that it's just about this time in this place. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's because of of what you said before.
Speaker 1: It's about behavior. It's about human behavior, and human behavior
Speaker 1: is pretty universal and doesn't change a whole lot. You know,
Speaker 1: the question has gone around so often about why the
Speaker 1: resurgence and popularity, Why is it? Why does it seem
Speaker 1: to be more popular now than it was back then?
Speaker 1: But beyond that, why do twelve and thirteen year olds
Speaker 1: and ten year olds? Why do they like it? That
Speaker 1: was always a shock to make shocker because when we
Speaker 1: were making the show, I thought, well, people who have
Speaker 1: worked in an office environment have a context. I can
Speaker 1: get it. I you know, I think they'd have something
Speaker 1: that they could find in here, but the fact that
Speaker 1: not only I mean not even teenagers, but like like preteens.
Speaker 1: Apparently Billie Eilish is a big fan and has been
Speaker 1: for years, and I got a note from her and
Speaker 1: we've corresponded a little bit, and and it's shocking that
Speaker 1: you know, the this gener at God, I sound like
Speaker 1: I'm eighty years old, but these younger generations, and it
Speaker 1: almost seems to have been passed down from their older
Speaker 1: siblings too. I don't know. I don't, but you know,
Speaker 1: I try not to even question it too much because
Speaker 1: it's a miracle that the show still gets the kind
Speaker 1: of attention that it does. I don't when is when
Speaker 1: are people going to get sick of it? Like when? When?
Speaker 1: When does the shoe drop? And then it's just when
Speaker 1: does the backlash start? That's my question, is that when
Speaker 1: when when this comes out? Probably actually know it's the
Speaker 1: weak before, the week before, It's just done, you know what.
Speaker 1: I just we all were so lucky. I think that
Speaker 1: permeates the whole vibe of the show too, because we
Speaker 1: knew we were all hanging by a thread and we
Speaker 1: were just going to enjoy it. And no one there
Speaker 1: was so cockiness at all, no air against. Everybody was
Speaker 1: just happy to be employed and working with this group
Speaker 1: and kind of clinging to each other because we also
Speaker 1: knew that this is a once in a lifetime conglomeration
Speaker 1: of people and let's enjoy it. I mean, as an actor,
Speaker 1: to have an experience like that, you know, we're lucky
Speaker 1: if we just get to work and and get paid
Speaker 1: and make a living. Come on, that's like, that's all
Speaker 1: any of us wanted. That's the other thing that I
Speaker 1: think was baseline for everyone on that show. Really, all
Speaker 1: we wanted to do was make livings as actors. No
Speaker 1: I think no one aspired to anything beyond that, and
Speaker 1: so there was complete contentment in in what we had there.
Speaker 1: But I would add to that that that is what
Speaker 1: people wanted, was to make a living as an actor.
Speaker 1: And at the same time that we felt so lucky
Speaker 1: that we were actually able to make a living on
Speaker 1: something that was actually good that people cared about that
Speaker 1: then took it to like completely agree. I, um you
Speaker 1: you you haven't died, Okay, I'm just gonna say that.
Speaker 1: And it's very difficult for me to be overly, overly
Speaker 1: nice but there is something that that I need you
Speaker 1: to hear that. Um, when Michael left and you laughed,
Speaker 1: you left at the same time, weirdly coincided. It was
Speaker 1: so are It's like, where is Michael Steve left earlier today?
Speaker 1: But um, it needs to be acknowledged that, you know,
Speaker 1: for us, Michael Scott was an amazing creation, but you
Speaker 1: were equally as special. That's really nice of you to say, Um,
Speaker 1: well it was. It was a special group and to
Speaker 1: find that dynamic, you know, actors, a TV show, you know,
Speaker 1: throwing all of that aside, just to have a group
Speaker 1: of people that you care so much about and and
Speaker 1: you can't wait to see the next day. I tend
Speaker 1: to do that though. Career wise, I tend to leave,
Speaker 1: and I've done this a few times. I left Second
Speaker 1: City when it just was it was the best job
Speaker 1: in the world. I couldn't imagine it being any better.
Speaker 1: I was having the most fun of my life. I
Speaker 1: gotta go. I gotta go because I don't want to
Speaker 1: get comfortable. And I did the same thing on the
Speaker 1: Daily Show. I was there or four years or so,
Speaker 1: and okay, this is perfect. And Nancy, my wife, we're
Speaker 1: both correspondents this is fantastic, love it. We're having a ball,
Speaker 1: and we both decided I gotta go, you know, we
Speaker 1: get let's just keep it moving on. And and I
Speaker 1: sort of did the same thing on the office, like
Speaker 1: it like you don't want it to And maybe it's
Speaker 1: maybe it's out of fear. Maybe maybe it's like you
Speaker 1: don't want it to turn a corner in any way,
Speaker 1: You don't want it to be any in any way
Speaker 1: less than it ever was. Um, so maybe that's maybe
Speaker 1: that's something about me that you know, I should examine,
Speaker 1: see somebody about. But it's so so maybe it's a
Speaker 1: defense mechanism that way. But I was just so proud
Speaker 1: to be part of it, and it was very difficult
Speaker 1: for me to leave, um because I loved everybody. Um.
Speaker 1: I didn't start by asking this because it didn't occur
Speaker 1: to me. And then people started talking, and I've been
Speaker 1: asking people what was the greater loss? Was it Steve
Speaker 1: or was it Michael Scott? And two stories have come
Speaker 1: up a number of times. One I haven't heard. I
Speaker 1: don't want to share this with you. Mike Sure, Um
Speaker 1: he said this. There was a budgetary meeting and they
Speaker 1: were trying to slash budget because they were always trying
Speaker 1: to slash the budget, and one of the things on
Speaker 1: the table was reducing the size of the cast. I
Speaker 1: can't remember who was there, but there were executives in
Speaker 1: the room, and Steve, who was a producer at the time,
Speaker 1: said nope, nope, no, no, no, like he said no
Speaker 1: like eight times in a row. It's not happening. That
Speaker 1: is not going to happen. And it just shut it down.
Speaker 1: It shut it down forever, and no one ever brought
Speaker 1: it up again. And I think that everybody felt that
Speaker 1: from you, that the ensemble was so important to you,
Speaker 1: and um, I don't even hope there's a question that
Speaker 1: I it was. It was a really it was a
Speaker 1: very strong thing inside of me, that group, and I
Speaker 1: felt very protective of everybody. But I think everyone felt
Speaker 1: that way, you know, standing up too, like no one
Speaker 1: was going to put any one of us down in
Speaker 1: any way. But I got that sense from not just
Speaker 1: the cast, but the crew and the writers and all
Speaker 1: the producers. Again, it sounds like such a crock and
Speaker 1: you know, I sound like I'm accepting a that's what
Speaker 1: I said, You've died, and it's not. It's no, it's
Speaker 1: not that. But it's and look, it's part of it
Speaker 1: is that you said, like, no, these were the guys
Speaker 1: who were here, this is our show. Can you imagine?
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine at that point? And I
Speaker 1: wasn't a producer until a few years in we were
Speaker 1: down the road that had to be like season four,
Speaker 1: So I mean, no, there's no way, like what, No,
Speaker 1: it didn't make sense, um unless people wanted to move on,
Speaker 1: unless they're but for financial that's the other thing, the budgetary.
Speaker 1: Do you remember the product integration stuff that we had
Speaker 1: to go through Shredder it was the staple Shredder, it
Speaker 1: was Chili's Man. That was a thorn in my side.
Speaker 1: I remember when one executive came in and said, Hey,
Speaker 1: for budgetary reasons, we would like to partner up with
Speaker 1: some of these companies and do some product integration. And
Speaker 1: that is that. That's definitely the one time I feel
Speaker 1: like I raised my hand and said we can't. I'm
Speaker 1: very much against us because I think it it definitely
Speaker 1: changes the show. If we are serving a corporate master,
Speaker 1: there's no way the show will be the same. If
Speaker 1: we're putting in any sort of products, it's going to
Speaker 1: alter how we write the show, how we performed the show.
Speaker 1: I was dead set against it, and they went ahead
Speaker 1: and did a couple of things anyway, and and each
Speaker 1: time they were disasters, they were they were terrible. I
Speaker 1: wasn't even going to bring that up to you. But
Speaker 1: what Greg talked about that, he called you, um, a
Speaker 1: great improver of life. He told the story about Chili's
Speaker 1: coming and saying, no, Pam can't be drunk, and he Greg,
Speaker 1: he said he was full blown panicking. Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: like three days into the show. We're going to lose
Speaker 1: the whole episode. Yeah, and you said no, Well, and
Speaker 1: you just that's what he was talking about, like a
Speaker 1: life improperly, here's the situation. Let me find let me
Speaker 1: let me find the yes and or whatever. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: found a way out of it. Yeah. Um, do you
Speaker 1: have any specific memories that you want to share from
Speaker 1: from your last day or a few days on set
Speaker 1: in the last episode there that was so well for starters.
Speaker 1: Six months before I talked to Greg about how I
Speaker 1: wanted Michael to go out, like what I thought sort
Speaker 1: of final arc would be, and the idea that I
Speaker 1: pitched was, you know, obviously he in Hollywood, be together,
Speaker 1: but I said specifically on his last day, I thought
Speaker 1: that there should be a party being planned, but that
Speaker 1: he should basically trick people into thinking he was leaving
Speaker 1: the next day, because I just thought that that would
Speaker 1: be the most um elegant representation of his growth as
Speaker 1: a human being that he Because Michael lives to be celebrated.
Speaker 1: You think that's all he wants. He wants to be
Speaker 1: the center of attention, and he he wants pats on
Speaker 1: the back. He wants people to think he's funny and
Speaker 1: charming and all of those things. But the fact that
Speaker 1: he'd walk away from his big tribute, his big send off,
Speaker 1: and be able to, in a very personal way say
Speaker 1: goodbye to each character, that to me felt like it
Speaker 1: would resonate and it was almost more than I bargained for,
Speaker 1: because that's what happened. I had scenes with everyone in
Speaker 1: the cast, and it was it was It was emotional torture,
Speaker 1: because imagine saying goodbye for a week. It wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: see you later and you wave and you're you're out. No,
Speaker 1: it was like just fraught with emotion and and joy
Speaker 1: and sadness and nostalgia. But it was also really beautiful,
Speaker 1: like I treasure. I'd like treasure just doing that episode
Speaker 1: because it did allow me to kind of have a
Speaker 1: finality with everybody, and and they were all different, like
Speaker 1: like I had one with Toby that wasn't wasn't wasn't.
Speaker 1: Very nostalgic at all, but very fitting of my But
Speaker 1: even in that certainly not as a character to be nostalgic,
Speaker 1: but to kind of have that final scene with Paul,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't show the emotion that's actually waited
Speaker 1: behind it as a human being for just me and Paul.
Speaker 1: Uh So it was it was a dance, you know,
Speaker 1: it was tricky. But um, I remember the last take
Speaker 1: and we were shooting in the bullpen. We were shooting
Speaker 1: in the main set, and I started to feel like,
Speaker 1: oh I I felt like, I think they're more people
Speaker 1: in the vicinity because all I could see were the cast.
Speaker 1: But then I just got the set. You know, you
Speaker 1: just get a sense of like, Okay, something something's happening.
Speaker 1: It's got some something's happening. Um And as soon as
Speaker 1: that last take, the room just filled with people and
Speaker 1: you know, it was all the writers and crew and
Speaker 1: and it it was well, I mean, you were there,
Speaker 1: you it was. It was ridiculous. It was ridiculously emotional. Um.
Speaker 1: Someone told me leading back up to the finale of
Speaker 1: the series that why would Michael come back? And you said, well,
Speaker 1: if do I got married? Is that true? I had
Speaker 1: told Greg, I just don't think it's a good idea
Speaker 1: because I felt like Michael's story had definitely ended, and
Speaker 1: I was reticent about coming back because I didn't want
Speaker 1: that ending to be at all about Michael, because you
Speaker 1: guys had two more really valuable seasons and I just
Speaker 1: didn't feel like it was right for Michael's return to
Speaker 1: take anything away from that. That was everyone else's ending.
Speaker 1: Michael had already had his, So I just didn't want to.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I felt like I should,
Speaker 1: out of respect for all of you guys and out
Speaker 1: of my love for everybody, to you know, to acknowledge
Speaker 1: the the ending of this thing. Your kids watch that never, No,
Speaker 1: come on, they've never watched it, and I completely get it, Like,
Speaker 1: why would you That's just weird, you know, watch your
Speaker 1: dad do that thing? Really though? Okay, so my daughters
Speaker 1: are freshman college and you said you going that was
Speaker 1: became a thing because everyone's watch He's totally cool with it.
Speaker 1: It's not, you know, over that weirdness, and nobody makes
Speaker 1: a big deal of it at college. But taking a
Speaker 1: course in communications and the subject matter was like the
Speaker 1: paradox of comedy or something. Then this is like a
Speaker 1: big lecture, like a huge man and they are studying
Speaker 1: an episode of the Office, which she's never seen, and
Speaker 1: she she texted us like it was really funny, liked,
Speaker 1: but she said it's so weird. She said, I never
Speaker 1: thought I would be studying something that you do that
Speaker 1: my father was in like for a course. I just
Speaker 1: I just think that's hilarious how that has come around
Speaker 1: on Oh my gosh, so funny. Um well, I thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, that was unceremonious, noble. Will you get out? Actually,
Speaker 1: I no, seriously, I UM so good to see you.
Speaker 1: It's truly so good. And weirdly, it doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: that much time it's past. I know it's such a cliche,
Speaker 1: but like I'll run into then I'm like, oh, he
Speaker 1: is gonna look really different. Now. By the way, what
Speaker 1: does this mean whenever anyone walks in there, like, you
Speaker 1: look exactly the same. Everyone looks exactly the same to me,
Speaker 1: But you know what. It's all I have you ever
Speaker 1: been to reunion like a high school reunion? And no,
Speaker 1: I avoid people. You've ever gone to one? Um, No,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I have you. It's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting phenomenon because you might see something. I just went
Speaker 1: back to college for a reunion of my improv group.
Speaker 1: Of all things. It's the fort. It was at anniversary
Speaker 1: on the of the creation of this improv group, so
Speaker 1: I went back to celebrate that with them, and there
Speaker 1: were people I hadn't seen since college and I graduated
Speaker 1: in eighty four, so it had been a long long time.
Speaker 1: And some people like when you see them, there's that
Speaker 1: immediate oh my, like that is a very different looking person,
Speaker 1: and within fifteen seconds they look exactly like they did
Speaker 1: because they are who they were, and it's you immediately
Speaker 1: process back to you know, whoever they were at the time,
Speaker 1: although you do look exactly the same, you really do.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. UM, thank you so much for coming in,
Speaker 1: Thanks for talking to me. I so appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: I we may not see each other very often, but
Speaker 1: I value your friendship and I'm always so happy to
Speaker 1: watch you in anything that you're doing. Really Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so good to see you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Nancy
Speaker 1: making friends and gip o friend sip please give her
Speaker 1: my best too. Good lord. Oh man, I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, but I could just start that right back
Speaker 1: over from the top. Uh. Steve, my friend, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for sitting down with me. I mean it's
Speaker 1: not like you have anything better to do, or like
Speaker 1: a bunch of movies and TV shows to make, but
Speaker 1: still thank you and listeners, thank you for listening. Let
Speaker 1: me know your thoughts on this episode in the reviews.
Speaker 1: It is so helpful for me and my team. And
Speaker 1: if you enjoyed listening to Steve, well keep an eye
Speaker 1: out or or in an ear out because we will
Speaker 1: have him back on a future episode with a very
Speaker 1: special guest. Until then, we will have lots more interviews
Speaker 1: coming your way, so we will see you next week.
Speaker 1: The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
Speaker 1: me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our
Speaker 1: senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr,
Speaker 1: and our assistant editor is die Go Tapia. My main
Speaker 1: man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Read Bratton,
Speaker 1: and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Hello, this
Speaker 1: is Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. We're thrilled to announce
Speaker 1: that our show, guys, We the Anti flut Schaming Podcast
Speaker 1: is returning to wide release. That's right, every Friday we
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