1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: This is the best of Newsworld coming up my conversation 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: with Malcolm Gladwell on this episode of Newsworld. My guest 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: today is the remarkably talented writer Malcolm Gladwell. He is 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: the author of six New York Times bestsellers, including Talking 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: to Strangers, David and Goliath, Outliers, Blink, and The Tipping Point. 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: He is the co founder and president of Pushkin Industries, 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: an audiobook and podcast production company that produces the podcast's 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: revisionist history, Broken Record, a music interview show, and Solvable, 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: in which Gladwell interviews innovative thinkers with solutions to some 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: of the world's biggest problems. He's here to talk about 11 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: his new book, The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, A Temptation, 12 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: and The Longest Night of the Second World War. Malcolm 13 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: Gladwell is one of those people who just has captured 14 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: the American spirit as a minor author. By his standards, 15 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: I look on his work as just a remarkable achievement. 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: I'm amazed at the Tipping Point, how little things can 17 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: make a big difference back in the year two thousand, 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: which really became an amazingly talked about book that I 19 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: think really gave a lot of people some new insights. 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: And then he came back with Blink, The Power of 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Thinking Without Thinking in two thousand and five, which again 22 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: permeated the culture. Then he wrote Outliers, The Story of 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Success in two thousand and eight, and then What the 24 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: Dog Saw and Other Adventures in two thousand and nine, 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: and finally David and Goliath Underdogs Misfits in the Art 26 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: of Battling Giants in twenty thirteen. And now he's back 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: with a really interesting book on the Bomber Mafia, A Dream, 28 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: A Temptation, and the Longest Night of the Second World War. 29 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: And I've had a long interest personally as a historian 30 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: in World War Two and in the Bomber Mafia and 31 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: the gap between what they believed was possible and what 32 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: was possible. But before we get into your new book, 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: The Bomber Mafia, I'm just curious, how did you get 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: into this. Your mother was a psychotherapist, your father's a mathematician. 35 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: That's certainly a wide range of experiences in one household. 36 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: But how did all that lead you to your first book? 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: My first book, well, I was a science reporter at 38 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: the Washington Post. It didn't study sciences in college. It 39 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: was all something I was discovering for the first time, 40 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: and the Tippic, But my first book really came about 41 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 2: because I was one of the Washington Post reporters who 42 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: was covering the AIDS epidemic, and I was spending all 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: this time with epidemiologists, and I became fascinated with how 44 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: epidemics work. And of course now we've all become amateur 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: epidemiologists over the last year and a half, but this 46 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: was way back in the eighties and I'd never encountered 47 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: this before, Just this idea that you could have these 48 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: unbelievably disruptive phenomenon that can sweep across a society, and 49 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: the phenomenon of these kinds of incredibly rapid, fast growing epidemics. 50 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: These things don't proceed carefully and slowly. They explode, and 51 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: the human brain is not really well set up to 52 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: deal with explosions. And that was really what got me 53 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: interested in that subject. 54 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: So I'm curious because you open a different door that 55 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: I simply have to go through for a minute. Given 56 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: your background and giving the work you did on HIV, 57 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: which I remember I was a very junior congressman at 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: the time, and I remember working both with the Center 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: for Disease Control, which I represented in Congress and helped 60 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: them on a regular basis, and also talking with people 61 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: at NIH, including doctor Fauci. How do you respond to 62 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: and interpret the last year as it relates to COVID, 63 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: given the depth of experience you had in covering an 64 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: earlier and very different kind of epidemic. 65 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that we forgot some of 66 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: the more important lessons from HIV. We would have been 67 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: This is going to seem like a curious thing to say, 68 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: but had less time separated those two epidemics, I feel 69 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: like we would have been better off. And you know 70 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 2: this is true. And we're shortly going to talk about 71 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: wars and armies. This is even more the case in 72 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: the military that the experience of having gone through a 73 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: particular kind of conflict is so powerful and illuminating on 74 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: the judgment of the participants that it shapes the way 75 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: they deal with all other future crises in their career. 76 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: And that's why when you lose a cohor of people 77 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: who have fought a war, you start over. This is 78 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: what's so frustrating about human beings. You know, a certain 79 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: generation dies off retires what have you, and the people 80 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: who come behind them don't sit down and study the 81 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: lessons of their forbears. They start over and they make 82 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: the same mistakes, and it's maddening. I feel like if 83 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: there had been ten years between the First World War 84 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: and the Second World War, would the Second World War 85 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: have been different? 86 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: Maybe? 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: Certainly, if there'd been less time between Korea and Vietnam, 88 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: maybe we would have been better off. I mean, I 89 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: think you can play this game endlessly. The game I 90 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: played with COVID was I think the great lesson of 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: HIV in the end is that epidemics are social phenomenon 92 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: that you don't have to understand the biology of the 93 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: virus in order to thwart the virus. You have to 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: understand people, how to talk to them, how to communicate 95 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: with them, how to get them aboard on any kind 96 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: of crusade. And I feel like we didn't do a 97 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: very good job of that. We got sort of caught 98 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: up in all kinds of issues that were secondary to 99 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: getting the population behind a coherence persuasive strategy. 100 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: I almost feel that sometimes the sheer volume of media 101 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: makes it harder to understand rather than easier. And then 102 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: you get into daily cycles of briefings that gradually make 103 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: people numb and lead them to know who to believe. 104 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: But let me use that for a jumping off point 105 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: about your book The Bomber Mafia, because this fits perfectly. 106 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: It is one of the great examples I think of 107 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: people who in a sense impose a particular model on reality. 108 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: And in the case of World War Two, the generals 109 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: who were at the key places actually had the resources 110 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: and the reach to do it. But it's certainly a 111 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: very different topic than you had written on up till now. 112 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: What led you to, Beckett? 113 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: Well, I've always been a history buff and I've always 114 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: wanted to write a pure history book. But the problem 115 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: with writing about history is that the competition's pretty ferocious. 116 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: There's almost no field of kind of modern American letters 117 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: where there are more quality people operating in than history. Right. 118 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I could name you, and I could do 119 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: the same thing. We could sit called with ten names 120 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: of truly a plus historians who write fantastic popular history. 121 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: That's super daunting. So I was like, you know, I 122 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: don't think I can play that game. And then I 123 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: wanted to write the second mold board for the reasons 124 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: I talk about in the book. You know, for family reasons. 125 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 2: My father was a kid in Kent in the beginning 126 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: of the join the Blitz, and he would sleep under 127 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: his bed. His mom would tell him to sleep under 128 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: his bed when the German bombers flew overhead every night 129 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: on their way to flat in London. So it's like 130 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: I grew up on these stories. I always wanted to 131 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: write about the Second World War. I always despair because 132 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: I thought, surely every great story from the Second World 133 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: War has been told, And then I finally thought I'd 134 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: found one that hadn't been told for a general audience. 135 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously serious historians know all about the Bottom Mafia, 136 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: but I didn't think they'd been a popular book about them. 137 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: And that's what I was like. I may, I was like, nude, 138 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: I may never get another chance. I was like, I 139 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: better do this right now or someone's gonna give me 140 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: to the punch. 141 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: That's great, But as I understand it, though, you originally 142 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: started out as an audio book. 143 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: Yes, so this was the book really intended to be 144 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: listened to, because I wanted to tell the story about 145 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: this renegade group of pilots at Maxwell Air Force Base 146 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: in the thirties and this vision they had of reforming 147 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: war and how they brought that vision into the Second 148 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: World War. And I quickly realized that the Air Force, 149 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: being the Air Force, they have perfect records. I mean, 150 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: this is you. It's so funny. Whatever people like rag 151 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: on the military or various parts of government as being 152 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: inefficient or clueless or in compston. I was like, actually, 153 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: if you hang around the Air Force long enough, you 154 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 2: come to the exact opposite conclusion. This is a group 155 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: of people who know what they're doing, and they have 156 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: astonishing archives on the Second World War. You can go 157 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: to Maxwell Air Force Base into the library and they 158 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: have mountains of audio tape of oral histories, brilliantly down 159 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: oral histories where they sit down with every key Air 160 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: Force figure in the Second World War. They do it 161 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: in the fifties or the sixties, when these guys are 162 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: still alive and looking back on their experience, and they 163 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: basically deepbrief them for the benefit of the public. And 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: I found this tape and I was like, you know, 165 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: I can write about Curtis la May or I can 166 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: just play you tape of Curtis l. May What would 167 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: you rather hear, you know, and the voices you cannot 168 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 2: understand URTIs the may until you hear him and you 169 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: want to say, oh, this is what he is. He's 170 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: like a warrior, right, he is an uncompromising, unsentimental, brilliant, 171 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: hard nosed warrior, and you could hear it in his voice, 172 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: and you can almost hear him when he's talking. Take 173 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: the cigar out of his mouth to answer the question, 174 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, when I realized there was all 175 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: of this ability to bring the story to life, I said, 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to start by making the greatest audiobook I 177 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: can where I use all of this tape to create 178 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,359 Speaker 2: an experience. When I talk about the bombing raid on Schwinefurt, 179 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 2: I want you to feel like you're there. And when 180 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: I talk about the bombing rate on Tokyo in March 181 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: of forty five, I want you to feel like you 182 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: are in one of those bombers, one of those super fortresses, 183 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: flying from Guam to Tokyo. So that was our intention. 184 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: We would start by doing a different kind of audiobook 185 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 2: and then we'd spun off the print book from it. 186 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: You know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. 187 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: The brilliant opportunity to bring modern history at least to life, 188 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: because we have so much of it on tape and 189 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: we can actually let people hear from the original people. 190 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: I've been going down to Maxwell for about thirty five years. Oh, 191 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, And yeah, I I've been teaching 192 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: several courses down there. 193 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: What do you teach there? 194 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: They have a course called the Joint War Fighting Course, 195 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: and it's on how to think about theater Command and 196 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: basically involves two star generals from all the different services 197 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: and admirals. And at one point in that process, a 198 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: very dear friend of mine, Chuck Boyd, who was a 199 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: very long time Vietnam prisoner of war and the only 200 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: prisoner of war to come back and get four stars. 201 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: Extraordinarily brilliant guy, and he was the head of the 202 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: Air University, and he had courtisil May coming down and 203 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: arranged it so that I would be there teaching and 204 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: then we would have dinner with le May. 205 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you met le May and we spent an. 206 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: Entire evening and it was just like this astonishing experience 207 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: of a guy who was both very smart and very ruthless. Yeah, 208 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: I asked him a couple of questions a triggered him 209 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: and it was amazing to watch him just go off. 210 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: At one point, he's sitting next to me at dinner 211 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: and returned bean hitting me in the arm because he 212 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: was just so filled with energy. And he said, actually 213 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: that it was the experience of being at the tactical 214 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: school that taught him how to write an eight paragraph 215 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: field order, and when he got to England, he said 216 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: his greatest contribution to the war was teaching the staff 217 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: of the Air Force in Europe, who had not gone 218 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: to the school, how to write a competent order, because 219 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: they were sending out these multi page, hard to understand, 220 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: convoluted things, and he would take them and he'd rewrite 221 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: them back into what was a standard PRIG order and 222 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: send it back to him say is this way you 223 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: meant to send me? And after about eight or nine 224 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: weeks they said, oh yeah, and they began to learn 225 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: how to do it. He then said he was in 226 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: charge of the seventeen unit. They were frankly not doing 227 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: very well, and partly they weren't doing very well because 228 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: they were bobbing and weaving to avoid the Uni aircraft fire, 229 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: so they could not get lined up to drop the 230 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: bombs accurately, and he called a meeting because he had 231 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: remembered from his nineteen twenty nine Ohio University ROTC manual 232 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: the likelihood of an eighty eight anti aircraft show and 233 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: a plane being in the same space, and it turned 234 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: out to be exactly the same likelihood whether you were 235 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: going straight or you were bobbing and weaving. And so 236 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: he called all of us senior commandagers and said, we're 237 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: going to fly straight. And they said, you can't fly straight, 238 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: you know. He said, trust me, here is likely to 239 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: be shot down, you know, bobbing and weaving, and frankly, 240 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: bobbing and weaving, you aren't hitting anything. And they said, well, 241 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: but we can't do this. He said, I'll tell you what, 242 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: if you really don't want to do it, I'm going 243 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: to ground the entire wing and save the taxpayers the 244 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: aviation fuel, because since we're not doing any good anyway, 245 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: why waste the gasoline. 246 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: And so they said, okay, all right, you looked up 247 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: the most important part of the story. And he said, 248 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: and if you don't believe me, I'll show you how 249 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: it's done. I'll lead the first attack. 250 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: I was going to get to that because he said, 251 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: I believe it enough, I'm going to lead the attack. 252 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: And then he turned to me and he said, I 253 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: was totally terrified when we took off, And I said, God, 254 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I hope that Manual was right, but to be there 255 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: in his presence. And this is why what you're doing 256 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: is so fascinating, because you're going to expose people in 257 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: the audio version. You're going to expose them to the 258 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: quality of the voice, the intensity of the communication, and 259 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: a lot of these historic figures they are different. They 260 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: are not just bigger versions of normal. 261 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: My impression from researching and reporting this book, curtis the 262 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: Mate was the greatest combat commander of the Second World 263 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: War in any domain. Now, maybe I got so caught 264 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: up in the Air Force in this that I'm being very, 265 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: very partial to the Air Force, but it struck me 266 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: that it is hard to find another single individual in 267 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: the Second World War who contributed as much to particularly 268 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: our tactical understanding of how to fight the enemy effectively. 269 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: This is one guy, I mean, we just nibbling. The 270 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: thing you just described is just one of a whole 271 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: series of innovations that he made in how we should 272 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: bomb more effectively. One guy made this insane contribution. 273 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: Well, and you know it continues after the war because 274 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: he's brought back to rebuild the Strategic Air Command at Omaha. 275 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: And there's this great story where he arrives at the 276 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: place is a dump and the morale is terrible and 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: they don't have any money. This is in nineteen forty nine, 278 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: before the Korean War build up, and so he announces 279 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: that they've got this building that if it had been 280 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: painted and cleaned up, would be a great gymnasium, but 281 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: they don't have any money to hire painters and so forth, 282 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: and so he finds a little bit of money for 283 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: paint and he sends out on a Wednesday or Thursday 284 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: that this Saturday, the commanding General will be painting and 285 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: would be glad to have anybody who'd like to come 286 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: and volunteer. And he said, by the end of the 287 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: day it was all painted and they now had a gymnasium. 288 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: And the degree to which that single act of leadership 289 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: raised their morale was just astonishing. But you raise an 290 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: interesting question. I think that what le Maay had was, 291 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: first of all, he was amazingly smart. He had an 292 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: ability in a way that very few people do to 293 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: understand that the purpose was to win the war, and 294 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: that was going to involve a great deal of carnage 295 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: and a great deal of violence, and that you had 296 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: to take people and train them because it wasn't a 297 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: natural behavior, and then you had to methodically just solve 298 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: problems and keep solving him and keep solving him, but 299 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: always with this notion that this was about winning the war. 300 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: In addition to Lomay, who we can probably do a 301 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: six hour podcast just talking about LeMay. But who else 302 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: did you find fascinated you and surprised you? 303 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: Well, heyw Hansel. So the Baramuffie is really a story 304 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,479 Speaker 2: of two men who come into conflict, Curtis le May 305 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: and his great antagonist, Hey with Hansel. And Hansel is 306 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: the idealistic version of le Maay. He is the dreamer, 307 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: the romantic. He's the one whose favorite book is Don Quixote, 308 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 2: and he is besotted with this idea that war can 309 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: be reformed and it is possible to fight a war 310 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: with the minimum of casualties on both sides. And he 311 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: falls in love with a set of technologies that he 312 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: thinks can move war from the nineteenth century and fully 313 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: into the twentieth century, and as you know, he turns 314 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: out to be not wrong but premature. He's imagining if 315 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: Heyward Hansel would be alive today, he would be quite 316 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: comfortable with the way the Air Force does its operations. 317 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: He's just seventy five years early in his vision. But 318 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: I loved the contrast. This is why I wanted to 319 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: write the book, the contrast. You have these two brilliant 320 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: generals who could not be more different. Who are you know? 321 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: At one end of the spectrum you have the ruthless, 322 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: unsentimental le May. At the other end you have this dreamer. 323 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: And I think you need them both in an effective military. 324 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: I'm glad we had dreamers, even if the dreamer's dream 325 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: didn't turn out to be practical. During the Second World War, 326 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: the thing about Heywood Hansel was he and his cohorts 327 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: down at Maxwell really who were possessed with a moral urgency. 328 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: They did not want to replay of the First World War. 329 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: They thought that if they could do one thing for humanity, 330 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: it would be to figure out a way not to 331 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: have a recurrence of that level of carnage. And they, 332 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: I think established a kind of philosophical and ethical tradition 333 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: within the Air Force that persists to this day. I 334 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: spent some time in this book talking to current Air 335 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: Force leadership. They are completely at home speaking a kind 336 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 2: of moral language about their obligations. It's not foreign to them. 337 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: They've read their history. They know that in the back 338 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: of their mind has to be the consideration that war 339 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: should be fought as cleanly as possible. And they get 340 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: that from people like heywod Hansel back in the day. 341 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: And I also have a kind of soft spot for romantics. 342 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I like when people have grand dreams, even 343 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: if those dreams come to nod. I think that really 344 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: good institutions make room for those people. The one thing, 345 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: more than anything that I came away from doing this 346 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: book was I came away with a level of respect 347 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: for the Air Force that I had not had before. 348 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about the Air Force before, and 349 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: I came away thinking, you know what, this is a 350 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: truly great American institution. And it's a great American institution 351 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: because it had room for dreamers and also warriors, bloodthirsty warriors, 352 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: and you need both. 353 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: One of the things I noticed that you did is 354 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: that you went to the center of the Tokyo raids 355 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: in word image, which is a real research center for 356 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: that period of time. What did you learn from that? 357 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: Well, that's actually how I began the book. I was 358 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: in Tokyo and happened to go to this little tiny 359 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: museum on a side street in East Tokyo. It's a 360 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: private museum. It's not even a government museum. It is 361 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: the only permanent memorial installation devoted to the fire bombing 362 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: of Tokyo in March of venteen forty five, about the 363 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: twenty first bombering command. And it is as plain I 364 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: don't know if you ever been there, Nute. It is 365 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: as plain and ordinary and prosaic museum as you will 366 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: ever see. It looks, like I say in the book, 367 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: it looks like a dentist office. They probably did the 368 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: whole thing for a couple thousand dollars, but it is 369 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 2: the most moving, you know. I've done episodes of my 370 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: podcast on memorials on what I think are wrong with them. 371 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: I'm not happy about the nine to eleven memorial, for example. 372 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: I think that was an exercise in excess this one 373 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: because it was so simple and straightforward and prosaic. It 374 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 2: was extraordinarily moving, and it's what sort of compelled me 375 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: to ask the question, how did it come to pass 376 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: that the US Air Force launched in March of forty 377 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: five one of the deadliest nights of bombing in human history. 378 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: And I also liked the idea that this is something 379 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 2: I didn't put in the book, but I should have. 380 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: So this is a museum that is built by a 381 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: Japanese historian to commemorate what happened that night, and the 382 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: first ninety percent of the museum is about what the 383 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: Americans did to Tokyo in March of forty five. The 384 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: last ten percent is how the Japanese used the same 385 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: incendiary bombing tactics against China at the beginning of the war. 386 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: So it is not a one sided ideological exercise. He 387 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: was making a point about how wars sometimes end up 388 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: being fought. The intention of the museum was that we 389 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: not forget this fact, but it didn't not have an 390 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: ideological agenda. The point of the museum was to make 391 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: you reflect on what happened, educates you. And that is 392 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: so close to my ideal version of what history ought 393 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: to do. And that's exactly what I did. Right came 394 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: away from that experience, determined to shed light on whatever 395 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: led up to March nineth thineteen forty five. What is 396 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: the ten year history that led us to one of 397 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: the most faithful decisions in the Second World War. 398 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think most people don't realize that the fire 399 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: bombings actually killed far more people than the two nuclear weapons. 400 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: It was also true in Europe, and the great bombing 401 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: of Hamburg, for example, was just extraordinary. And it's interesting. 402 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: I had always thought that our aggressiveness about bombing cities 403 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: was in part a response to Pearl Harbor. But George Marshall, 404 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: the Chief of Staff of the Army, in the summer 405 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty one, while we're still at peace, gives 406 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: a speech and says, the Japanese will not dare to 407 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: attack us because their cities are wooden and they will burn. 408 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: And it just struck me as kind of amazing that 409 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: Marshall would already have understood the rhythm of what our 410 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: counter attack would be like. And then, of course with LeMay, 411 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: you get somebody who was just relentless and carrying it out. Yeah, 412 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: an amazing bombing campaign the winter of forty five. 413 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: This observation had been made on a regular basis by 414 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: the late nineteen thirties that there was a qualitative difference 415 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: between European and Japanese cities. You just walk around Berlin 416 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: and you compare that to walking around Tokyo, and you see, 417 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: Berlin is really hard to burn down. It's too much 418 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: brick and stone, too many fire breaks, too many parks, 419 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: really wide streets, none of that. You can certainly drop 420 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 2: in San Diaere's on Berlin and they'll do a little damage. 421 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: But we did calculations in the thirties about how effective 422 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: would sendiaries be on a typical European city, and the 423 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 2: answer is not that effective. And then they went and 424 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 2: did exactly the same studies on Japanese cities, and you know, 425 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: they are constructed completely opposite. The houses are close together, 426 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 2: the streets are narrow, the houses are made out of 427 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: wood and straw and tar paper. I mean, Marshall's absolutely right. 428 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: These things were tinderboxes. I have a chapter in Baramafia 429 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: on the creation of napalm. Napalm is created in the 430 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: Second World War for the explicit intention of bombing Japanese 431 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: cities because they were so flammable. I mean, it was 432 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: a US Army project to find the most effective in 433 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: sandi area we could, and it comes out of Harvard University, 434 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: a fact that Harvard is not very eager to share 435 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: with the world. You would think, nude, sorry forgive me 436 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: for this tangent. If you go to Harvard University, you 437 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: can go and I did this to the It's still 438 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: there the chemistry lab where napalm was invented. 439 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: Right. 440 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: You would think, wouldn't you that there would be a 441 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: little plaque that said, in nineteen forty one in this 442 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: exact chemistry laboratory, one of the most leath the weapons 443 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century was invented. And then they can 444 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: go on all they want about whether that's a good 445 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: or bad thing. I don't really care. What I care 446 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: about is Look, if you make a list of the 447 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: ten most consequential inventions to come out of Harvard University, 448 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I've looked at that list. Nate Palm's number one. 449 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: There's no doubt about it. There is nothing that has 450 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: been invented at Harvard University that has had a greater 451 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: impact on the world than napalm that came out in 452 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one. You cannot find on the entire campus, 453 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 2: a single mention of that fact. Where was the first 454 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: test of napalm? It was on the Harvard University soccer field. 455 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: Forgettness sake. The whole thing was cooked up in Cambridge. 456 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: Will they tell us about this? 457 00:26:59,720 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: No? 458 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: Oh, why not? Will you join me in this crusade? Nude, 459 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: They've got to acknowledge. They're so busy acknowledging all kinds 460 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: of other things they can't get around to the big one. 461 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: I suspect, given the current psychology and culture of Harvard, 462 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: that they would have a sense of guilt and humiliation. 463 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 2: Well, acknowledge that this is what drives me crazy, by 464 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 2: the way, about this moment, So acknowledge it. Just say 465 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: this was invented here, and say and we feel guilty 466 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: about it, Like that's fine at this point where we 467 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: feel like the only time we can acknowledge our history 468 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: is when we're proud of it. Why it's fine. We're 469 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: intelligent human beings. Make the plaque two thousand words long 470 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: and tell me the whole story. 471 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: I did not know that story. So I'm still sitting 472 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: here absorbing it, and I can't wait till I see 473 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: some friends from Harvard. It's really good and In fact, 474 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: we have somebody who's working with us right now who 475 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: is going to Harvard this fall. Maybe we'll make her 476 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: assignment to sneak into that lab and post something up there, 477 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: which case we're going to put your name on it. 478 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell wanted you to know absolutely that's the sort 479 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: of thing which could lead them to either tear the 480 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: building down as well as blow up the soccer field 481 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: and deny that it ever happened. 482 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: But no, but here's the thing new, This is exactly 483 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: the kind of moment when history is really really important, 484 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 2: and that is an opportunity to tell people in a 485 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: really interesting way about a complicated moment in our country's history. 486 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: And if you're a university, that's your job, right, that's 487 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: your job. 488 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: Well, you would think we live in an arrow and 489 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: it may not be their job, or at least as 490 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: they define themselves. But you know, here is a different, 491 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: really important point because you can go across the street 492 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: to the Lincoln Labs at MIT. The number of things 493 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: we invented in that small area that had a direct impact, 494 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: including proximity fuses, things that really decisively affected the war, 495 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: and a whole range of things. It's kind of astonishing, 496 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: and you know, most Americans have never heard of those 497 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: kind of contributions. But in some ways, World War II 498 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: was the first time that science really was integral to 499 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: the whole war at every level, and that without the 500 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: science and engineering, you'd maybe you've been pushed back into 501 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: World War One. But let me ask you a moral 502 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: question for a second. I'm a big fan of LeMay, 503 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: and I'm a big fan of the US Air Force, 504 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: But in the end, the ability to deliver violence from 505 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: the air, if you count civilian lives as well as 506 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: military lives, it did not exactly end up saving lives. 507 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: It just that's for the point at which they died. 508 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: And so you ended up with these extraordinary bomber campaigns 509 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: we in the British against the Germans, and then US 510 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: against the Japanese. And of course, as you pointed out, 511 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: you'd also had the Germans and the Italians in Spain, 512 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: you'd had the Japanese in China. But airpower in that sense, 513 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: it seems to me, didn't in fact dramatically improve things 514 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: until they got genuine precision capabilities, which really only occurs 515 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: towards the very end of the Vietnam War. Because you 516 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: report accurately that we had this terrible levels of accuracy 517 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: in World War Two. I mean, the degree to which 518 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: these precision bombers weren't very precise is astonishing. But by 519 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: the time we get to the Iraq campaigns, the science 520 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: is caught up with the requirements, and one B two 521 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: today is more effective than an entire wing of B 522 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: seventeens because it can deliver such extraordinarily precise weapons, and 523 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: in that sense it may save lives over the long run. 524 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: But in a way, the science and the technology finally 525 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: caught up with the dreams of the people in the 526 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and the dreams that do Hayhead and writing 527 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: about the potential of the bomber to save lives by 528 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: ending the kind of war we'd fought in World War One. 529 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious why you're taking it. Do you think that 530 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: precision bombing in the genuine sense of truly being precise, 531 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: will in fact leverage violence more efficiently and more humanely, 532 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: in that fewer civilians will die of collateral damage, or 533 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: do you think it'll just extend the capacity of people 534 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: to endure until they're defeated beyond the ability to resist. 535 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that is the million dollar question. I 536 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: think I'm an optimist on this. I think that we're 537 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: better off on balance, that precision allows us. And I 538 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: say that only because when I look at the Second 539 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: World War and I see the extent of civilian losses 540 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: in bombing campaigns is in retrospect staggering. I mean, probably 541 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: close to a million Japanese civilians in summer forty five, 542 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: the number of Germans killed in Allied bombing campaigns, particularly 543 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: the British. I did not come away from this book 544 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: with a renewed appreciation for British bombing tactics. At the 545 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: end of the book, I talked to this historian at 546 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: the Army War College and she was saying that you 547 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: have an obligation as a military commander to resort to 548 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: extreme force surveilence only after all other avenues are exhausted, 549 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: only when you have no other choice. What she says 550 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 2: that what she says I always teach my students, the 551 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: Army officers of tomorrow. She says, you have an obligation 552 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: to work through all of your more ethically acceptable alternatives first. 553 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: So she's not saying it is wrong to do is 554 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: lamated over Japan what she's saying is it's wrong to 555 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: do that without consideration of other options first, and I 556 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: thought that was extremely wise. So what I would say 557 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: is the new era precision bombing that we have today 558 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: allows us to do is to pursue more alternative options 559 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: before we take the big step that I like. I 560 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: think the more tools we can give military leadership, the 561 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: more capable they will be of fighting a more acceptable 562 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: kind of war. I mean, I don't think there's any 563 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: such thing as an acceptable war, but a more acceptable 564 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: kind of war. And like I said, when I met 565 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: with Air Force leadership, the thing that really struck me 566 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: was how these people are intellectually serious people today. When 567 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 2: you have some trigger happy warrior at the helm of 568 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: military service is long, long, long, long over. They are 569 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: fully aware of what they can and should not do. 570 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: So I found the process of getting involved in writing 571 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: this book to be tremendously reassuring about military power in 572 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: twenty first century. 573 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: You know, I want to take you back to a 574 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: passing comment you made that you weren't exactly enthusiastic about 575 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: the Royal Air Forces bomber campaign. I want to ask 576 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: you two sort of technical questions, One to what extent. 577 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: Do you think the fact that we had the Norden 578 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: bomb site, so we at least had some hope of 579 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: hitting targets changed our attitude towards the campaign where the 580 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: British did not have any device like that, and literally 581 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: they went to bombing whole cities because they couldn't hit anything. 582 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: I mean, if they're going to go do it, they 583 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: had to go do it almost on a city killing basis, 584 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: because they couldn't guarantee killing a factory. 585 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it made a little bit of a 586 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 2: difference in the use of initial sort of motivations to 587 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: to bombing. My real issue with Bomber Harris, the head 588 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 2: of the British Bomber Command, was it's a point that 589 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 2: Ira Acre, who was the head of the Army Air 590 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: Corps eighth Air Force in Europe, made to Bomber Harris, 591 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: which was the theory under which the British area bombing 592 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: was operating was false. The idea that the British had 593 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: was that if I bomb my enemy's civilian population in 594 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 2: sufficient numbers, their morale will crack and I'll win the war. 595 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: That way, nobody will crawl to their homes, they'll super peace. Well, 596 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 2: The Germans tried that very strategy during the Blitz, right 597 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: they bombed the Bejesus out of London on the expectation 598 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: that Londoners would panic and the British would give up. 599 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 2: Is that what happened. No, the exact opposite happened. The 600 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: English shrugged it off, went about their business and came 601 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: back stronger than ever. So Bomber Harris has empirical evidence 602 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: in his own backyard of the futility of morale bombing. 603 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: It didn't work on them. So Ira Acre turns to 604 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: him one point and says, you know, why are you 605 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 2: pursuing a strategy against the Germans? It did not work 606 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 2: against you. And Bomber Harris's response is, well, the British 607 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: are different, dude. I'm sorry, that's nonsense. But Bomber Harris is. 608 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: I call him a psychopath in the book, and I 609 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 2: think that is a considered opinion. He's a psychopath. If 610 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: he had looked at the evidence, he would have realized. 611 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 2: And you know this. The bombing survey done after the 612 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: war by the Air Force confirms in large part the 613 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 2: futility of British morale bombing during the Second World War. 614 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 2: It didn't work. It did not cause German morale to crumble. 615 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: We squandered countless lives, countless planes, wasted countless resources in 616 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: pursuit of a murderous policy over Germany that had no 617 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 2: real impact on the outcome of the war. There's some 618 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: really wonderful stuff by some British military strategists after the war, 619 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 2: including Blackett, who won the Nobel Prize, physicist who served 620 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: in the War Office, who made a calculate about how 621 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 2: much earlier the Second World War would have ended if 622 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: the RAF had not squandered so many resources in these 623 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: fruitless bombing campaigns that I found really persuasive. I think 624 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 2: the military leadership in the US Army Air Corps was 625 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 2: far superior to that of the RAF. Harris doesn't belong 626 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: on the same page as Curtis Lamy, like I said, 627 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 2: did not come away impressed by it. And I'm English, 628 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: I was born in England. These are my people. 629 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're not going to hold you to that. 630 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: You're allowed to render independent judgment, whatever your nationality. Let 631 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: me ask you if you don't mind, because you're so 632 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: interesting and so insightful, what do you have coming up next? 633 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 2: My next book is also going to be an audibook. First, 634 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: I want to do something on policing, and I want 635 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: to do something on the LAPD because I want to 636 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 2: understand the LAPD was the great, kind of shining example 637 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: of a modern American police department, and they got some 638 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 2: things very right and something's very wrong, and I want 639 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: to understand that process. And I think it would be 640 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 2: really instructive because right now, obviously that topic is in 641 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 2: the air. We think we need to do something to 642 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 2: reform the way policing happens in this country. So I thought, 643 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 2: let's do a kind of case study of the most 644 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 2: storied of all American police departments and try to answer 645 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: that question. If you make a list of the ten 646 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: greatest police chiefs in America in the twentieth century, three 647 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 2: of them are LPD police chiefs. These guys were the 648 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: white Knights of American policing for seventy five years until Watson, 649 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 2: then Rodney King complicates their heritage. So I'm now doing 650 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 2: the same thing I did with Barmaffia. I'm sort of 651 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: digging through the archives and trying to bring these men 652 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: to life. And they are a fascinating group of men. 653 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with the remarkable achievements in New York City. Well, 654 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: you can almost draw a line in the day that 655 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: Giuliani walks in, the system shifts and we're now shifting 656 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: back to a pre Julie Honey model, and they've doubled 657 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: the murder rate on the last year. And it's kind 658 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: of like you're point earlier about systems that don't want 659 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: to learn. We have a culture that says, yeah, that's 660 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: factually true, but irrelevant, Yeah, because it doesn't meet our 661 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: current needs. 662 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: You know, the last year is tricky because of COVID, 663 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: and we see a lot of these trends across the country. 664 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 2: It's really hard to tease out what's going on here. 665 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: You know, in my last book Talking to Strangers, I 666 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time talking about policing. I got optimistic, 667 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 2: not pessimistic. There are some really sophisticated currents in criminology 668 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 2: right now about how to build better police departments and 669 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 2: do more effective policing. But you know this, there's always 670 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: a gap between the innovation and its implementation, and I 671 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: think we maybe are just in one of those gaps. 672 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 2: But we're getting across the board. We have gotten a 673 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 2: lot smarter in how we do this. And also, you know, 674 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 2: we started this conversation talking about you have a problem 675 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 2: when there's too big of a gap between crises. Right, 676 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: there's not a big gap between crisis. Bill Bratton probably 677 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: the greatest police chief of the last fifty years in 678 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 2: this country, who did New York and then did LA 679 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 2: really brought the LAPD back to life. Brad's still around. 680 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 2: You know, when the Brits had that crime problem a 681 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 2: couple years ago, they tried to hire Bratton, which I 682 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 2: thought was fantastic. So it's like we have the old heads. 683 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 2: You know, you can go and talk to Bill Bratton. 684 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 2: He'll tell you how it's done. So I'm optimistic. You know, 685 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 2: it's been a very very difficult last eighteen months. I 686 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 2: think we can build this back up. 687 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,959 Speaker 1: Oh A huge fan of Bratton, and frankly, I agree 688 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: with you. He's probably the greatest police chief of the 689 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: last half century. 690 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 2: When I look at it, it's very similar to the 691 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 2: dynamic I was describing in the Bora Mafia, which is 692 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 2: you really get an appreciation for how one very effective 693 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 2: individual can have a hugely disproportioned effect on their worlds. 694 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 2: You know, if you sub out Curtis LeMay with a 695 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: just a kind of ordinary, average commander. Who knows what 696 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: the last twelve months of the Second World War looked like, 697 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 2: what could have gone into nineteen forty seven, I don't know. 698 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 2: I mean, he had such a profound effect on the 699 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 2: European bombing campaign. Who knows how much longer that would 700 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 2: have happened. Same thing with Bratton. You sub out Bratton. 701 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right if instead of Bratton taking over the 702 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: NYPD in that crucial period in the nineties, you get 703 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 2: just an ordinary business's usual guy. New York City is 704 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 2: not just slightly different, it's unrecognizable today, unrecognizable, And you know, 705 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 2: you look at these things and you say, man, we 706 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 2: get lucky every now and again, which makes me really 707 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: nervous because I think it's like WHOA. I was living 708 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 2: in New York when Bratton was there. I was like, Man, 709 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 2: did we dodge a bullet? I mean literally dodge a 710 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 2: bullet if we hadn't gotten this guy. Same thing with 711 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: le May in the Second World War. 712 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 1: Well, I want you to know that. I hope you'll 713 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: come back with your new book and we'll talk about policing. 714 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: This has been a joy for me You're just a 715 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: great guest, and I love your enthusiasm and your energy 716 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: as well as your knowledge. And I want to assure 717 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: you that we're going to promote the Bomber Mafia. But 718 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for taking the time. This 719 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: has been just a great conversation, wonderful. 720 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. I really 721 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 2: enjoyed it. 722 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Malcolm Gladwell. You can get 723 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 1: a link to his book The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, 724 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,919 Speaker 1: A Temptation and the Longest Night of the Second World 725 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: War on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 726 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: is produced by gingersh three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 727 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: producer is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 728 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 729 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the Tim at Ginglishtree sixty. If you've 730 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 731 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 732 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 733 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 734 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: my three freeweekly columns at gingwishree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 735 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: I'm newt Ginglish. This is Neutsworld.