1 00:00:02,990 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:14,930 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is 3 00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:22,860 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. In today's October episode of Stuff to You 4 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 1: might recognize the name because he was previously on the 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,980 Speaker 1: show to discuss Dinner with King Tut, and now he's 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,860 Speaker 1: back to discuss his new book, The Museum of Lost Things. 7 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: And I'm going to ask him about some of the 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,620 Speaker 1: spookier topics in this excellent book, and then you can 9 00:00:37,690 --> 00:00:40,409 Speaker 1: read the rest on your own. The book is out now. 10 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:46,830 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and dive right into the interview. Hi, Sam. 11 00:00:46,870 --> 00:00:47,670 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. 12 00:00:48,270 --> 00:00:49,350 Speaker 2: Hi. Thanks for having me back. 13 00:00:50,030 --> 00:00:51,870 Speaker 1: Yeah, the new book is, I'm going to hold it 14 00:00:51,950 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: up for folks watching on Netflix, is the Museum of 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: Lost Things. And I'm going to come back to the 16 00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:01,420 Speaker 1: general aspects of the book. But since we're in October here, 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: let's kick things off with a spooky question, something befitting, say, 18 00:01:05,819 --> 00:01:10,550 Speaker 1: the Universal Horror franchise of films. How many royal tombs 19 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:13,490 Speaker 1: are out there in the world, just undiscovered and unknown? 20 00:01:15,030 --> 00:01:17,110 Speaker 2: A lot more than you might think. I mean, there 21 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:19,830 Speaker 2: have been so many kings throughout history and so many, 22 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:22,850 Speaker 2: you know, great warriors. And we just don't know where 23 00:01:22,930 --> 00:01:25,790 Speaker 2: a lot of them are buried. You know, just over time, 24 00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:29,190 Speaker 2: these important graves, however important they were to the people 25 00:01:29,230 --> 00:01:31,970 Speaker 2: at the time, they just get lost. You know, civilizations 26 00:01:32,010 --> 00:01:35,930 Speaker 2: collapse and even very important graves end up crumbling. So 27 00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:39,050 Speaker 2: there's kings waiting out there to be discovered still. 28 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,180 Speaker 1: Tell us about Genghis Khan, how he earned the name 29 00:01:43,220 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: the Disturber of the Universe, and what we know and 30 00:01:46,060 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: don't know about his tomb. 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,870 Speaker 2: Yeah, he earned that name, Disturber of the Universe, essentially 32 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:54,070 Speaker 2: because he conquered most of the known world at the time, 33 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:56,230 Speaker 2: the people there. I mean, it was the largest empire 34 00:01:56,270 --> 00:02:01,430 Speaker 2: in history. He essentially founded it. And he made an 35 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:03,950 Speaker 2: appearance in the book mostly because he has just this 36 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: crazy elaborate funeral, or rumors at least, legends about the funeral, 37 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,650 Speaker 2: And we really don't know where he was buried because 38 00:02:13,690 --> 00:02:17,070 Speaker 2: of the nature of that funeral. So essentially, he was 39 00:02:17,110 --> 00:02:20,510 Speaker 2: a very private person and he didn't want his bones 40 00:02:20,590 --> 00:02:25,130 Speaker 2: disturbed after his death. So he had instructions left and 41 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:29,090 Speaker 2: he had a thousand warriors take his body somewhere. We 42 00:02:29,130 --> 00:02:31,060 Speaker 2: have some guesses about where it might be, but we 43 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: don't know where they took it. And on the way 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: to the grave site, these thousand warriors essentially killed every 45 00:02:37,540 --> 00:02:40,570 Speaker 2: single person that they met. They would, you know, run 46 00:02:40,610 --> 00:02:42,510 Speaker 2: a sword through them and say, go to the other 47 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:45,790 Speaker 2: world to serve our Lord. According to some, they even 48 00:02:45,870 --> 00:02:48,230 Speaker 2: killed every animal they saw on the way, just to 49 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:51,470 Speaker 2: make it extra secret. They got to the grave site. 50 00:02:51,940 --> 00:02:55,500 Speaker 2: They buried him. Some sources say they diverted a river 51 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: over the grave to hide it. Some say they just 52 00:02:57,940 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: ran the thousand horses over it to trample it down 53 00:03:01,419 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: and hide it. And then the thousand warriors killed everyone 54 00:03:04,580 --> 00:03:07,180 Speaker 2: they met on the way back as well to, again, 55 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,050 Speaker 2: ensure secrecy. And then when the warriors got back to 56 00:03:10,090 --> 00:03:13,390 Speaker 2: the main army, they themselves were slaughtered in order to 57 00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:15,910 Speaker 2: make doubly sure that no one would know where the 58 00:03:15,930 --> 00:03:19,300 Speaker 2: grave is. Who knows how much of that exactly is true, 59 00:03:19,419 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 2: but we do know, again, he wanted a lot of 60 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,139 Speaker 2: privacy in his death. So we don't know exactly where 61 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: he is buried to this day. And I think of 62 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: all the lost graves in history, if you asked archaeologists, 63 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:34,310 Speaker 2: what is the one grave you'd love to find? That 64 00:03:34,370 --> 00:03:36,270 Speaker 2: one would probably be near the top of the list. 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you cover in the book how people continue 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,630 Speaker 1: to look for it. You're talking about satellite imagery and 67 00:03:44,090 --> 00:03:47,710 Speaker 1: sort of a quest to find anything in the suspected area, 68 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:52,910 Speaker 1: these mountains that were kind of considered sacred to him. 69 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: But nothing has quite turned up, right? 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: No, the satellite one was interesting because they found a 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,500 Speaker 2: lot of cool things. They found some Bronze Age megaliths. 72 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:04,420 Speaker 2: They found maybe a buried city. But no, the grave 73 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: just never turned up. 74 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,260 Speaker 1: And you write that it's likely to remain that way, right? Like, 75 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:13,010 Speaker 1: even if we found something that seemed likely, the chances 76 00:04:13,410 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: of the government there being okay with it. digging up 77 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:19,580 Speaker 1: the grave. Certainly we could find it, but then the 78 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,300 Speaker 1: chances of actually unearthing it are maybe a little slim, right? 79 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,550 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are some taboos around it today, and it's 80 00:04:28,130 --> 00:04:32,370 Speaker 2: not unanimous, but there is a sense in Mongolia that, 81 00:04:32,850 --> 00:04:35,490 Speaker 2: you know, just let him rest in peace, kind of 82 00:04:35,529 --> 00:04:39,029 Speaker 2: let the grave go. Yeah, so even if we did 83 00:04:39,070 --> 00:04:42,970 Speaker 2: find it, they might not allow anyone to actually go 84 00:04:43,029 --> 00:04:45,010 Speaker 2: after it, because he is a big national hero there 85 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:45,740 Speaker 2: to this day still. 86 00:04:46,510 --> 00:04:49,070 Speaker 1: And I guess in that we can see parallels with 87 00:04:49,550 --> 00:04:52,029 Speaker 1: like the first sovereign emperor of China, that tomb, like 88 00:04:52,050 --> 00:04:54,430 Speaker 1: that's a tomb that we know exactly where it is, 89 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:57,210 Speaker 1: but we haven't opened it because it is considered a 90 00:04:57,430 --> 00:04:58,050 Speaker 1: sacred place. 91 00:04:58,390 --> 00:05:01,100 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Just the modern sensibility, you know, and I 92 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,140 Speaker 2: think there's something to be said for that. Just kind 93 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,780 Speaker 2: of let them, you know, grant their wishes, essentially, and 94 00:05:06,820 --> 00:05:07,700 Speaker 2: let them rest in peace. 95 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,220 Speaker 1: Now, the tomb of Alexander the Great, a different story entirely, right? 96 00:05:13,210 --> 00:05:17,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, so essentially with that, we don't know exactly where 97 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:21,229 Speaker 2: his body is. His body became kind of a pawn 98 00:05:21,810 --> 00:05:25,030 Speaker 2: after his death because, again, he had a very large empire. 99 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:29,469 Speaker 2: And it kind of deteriorated where there were a bunch 100 00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:32,669 Speaker 2: of people warring for control over the empire. Each one 101 00:05:32,710 --> 00:05:38,630 Speaker 2: had a little slice. And eventually, Ptolemy, one of his generals... 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,099 Speaker 2: The plan was to take the body back to his 103 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:47,500 Speaker 2: hometown or his home region to Macedonia. Ptolemy essentially stole 104 00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:50,900 Speaker 2: it on the way. His men intercepted the funeral cortege, 105 00:05:51,260 --> 00:05:55,990 Speaker 2: diverted to Alexandria in order to solidify his rule there. 106 00:05:56,380 --> 00:06:00,609 Speaker 2: And unlike most of the other generals that were trying 107 00:06:00,710 --> 00:06:03,990 Speaker 2: to take over the little little satraps that they had, 108 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: he ended up having a very productive and very harmonious, 109 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,020 Speaker 2: peaceful reign. So they really did solidify his reign to 110 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: have Alexander's body there. So it ended up working out 111 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:17,530 Speaker 2: for him, even though it was kind of a dirty trick. 112 00:06:18,370 --> 00:06:21,790 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do a great job condensing and discussing the 113 00:06:22,330 --> 00:06:26,810 Speaker 1: fracturing of Alexander's empire and how these various generals that 114 00:06:26,850 --> 00:06:28,910 Speaker 1: had served under him are kind of just sort of 115 00:06:28,970 --> 00:06:31,820 Speaker 1: grasping for some piece of his legacy. You mentioned that 116 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,110 Speaker 1: some would claim to be blood relatives of him, or 117 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:40,270 Speaker 1: to even take a hairstyle that was associated with him. Right, yeah. 118 00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:43,029 Speaker 2: He had curly hair, kind of famously curly hair, so 119 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:45,690 Speaker 2: they would do their hair like him. They would claim 120 00:06:45,710 --> 00:06:48,650 Speaker 2: to have dreams where he was speaking to them and 121 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:51,110 Speaker 2: stuff like that. Basically any little thing they could do 122 00:06:51,170 --> 00:07:01,020 Speaker 2: to make themselves seem like the legitimate heir they were doing. 123 00:07:03,990 --> 00:07:06,589 Speaker 1: Now, you also discuss one of the most famous examples 124 00:07:06,630 --> 00:07:11,050 Speaker 1: of a lost-then-found tomb, and that being the tomb of Tutankhamen. 125 00:07:11,730 --> 00:07:14,210 Speaker 1: So much has been written about King Tut. How did 126 00:07:14,270 --> 00:07:17,700 Speaker 1: you approach covering him in the book? And what do 127 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: you hope readers take home regarding the story of his remains? 128 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,980 Speaker 2: It's kind of strange because he really is the most, 129 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,580 Speaker 2: or one of the most famous pharaohs. If you ask 130 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,900 Speaker 2: someone to name a pharaoh, you know, they might say Ramses, 131 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,620 Speaker 2: but the top would probably be right at the top 132 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,490 Speaker 2: of the list. And the story behind why he is 133 00:07:35,510 --> 00:07:39,410 Speaker 2: so famous is a little strange in that he really 134 00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:43,090 Speaker 2: wasn't that important during his lifetime. He took over when 135 00:07:43,110 --> 00:07:46,060 Speaker 2: he was only nine years old. So he's not capable 136 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: of doing much. And he died about a decade later. 137 00:07:48,860 --> 00:07:51,530 Speaker 2: So he's pretty young when he died. And it wasn't 138 00:07:51,550 --> 00:07:56,190 Speaker 2: a great time for the kingdom in that it was 139 00:07:56,210 --> 00:07:59,870 Speaker 2: kind of chaotic. Egypt really wasn't asserting its power in 140 00:07:59,890 --> 00:08:02,250 Speaker 2: the same way that it had before or would later. 141 00:08:02,310 --> 00:08:06,150 Speaker 2: He was pretty much a middling king. And his father, 142 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: another famous pharaoh named Akhenaten, instituted a bunch of religious 143 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,740 Speaker 2: reforms that were very unpopular. And a lot of people 144 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,020 Speaker 2: really hated Akhenaten. And that hatred sort of carried down 145 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: to his son, Tut, as well. So when Tut died, 146 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,020 Speaker 2: eventually Ramses took over, and Ramses' people wanted to obscure 147 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,620 Speaker 2: Akhenaten and Tut. With Akhenaten, they would go around, you know, 148 00:08:31,930 --> 00:08:36,710 Speaker 2: smashing any statues of him, smashing hieroglyphs that mentioned his name, 149 00:08:36,770 --> 00:08:39,430 Speaker 2: things like that. With Tut, what they tried to do 150 00:08:39,490 --> 00:08:42,770 Speaker 2: essentially is bury his tomb. So they took a bunch 151 00:08:42,790 --> 00:08:46,540 Speaker 2: of rubble, poured it over it, and, yeah, tried to 152 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:49,020 Speaker 2: bury it for history. And they did such a good 153 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: job of it that even looters could not find the tomb. 154 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,060 Speaker 2: And all of the big monuments, you know, the obvious 155 00:08:56,140 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: monuments were looted over the centuries and all of the 156 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 2: treasures in there were taken. Whereas Tut's tomb, because it 157 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,780 Speaker 2: was hidden, all the treasures stayed intact. So essentially, Ramsey's plan, 158 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,340 Speaker 2: that plot backfired and made Tut a lot more famous 159 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,330 Speaker 2: than he really deserved simply because the treasures were intact. 160 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:18,189 Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, it's such an amazing story. And you mentioned 161 00:09:18,450 --> 00:09:20,230 Speaker 1: several different angles on it, one of which I don't 162 00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:23,070 Speaker 1: know if I'd heard of this before. And you do 163 00:09:23,090 --> 00:09:27,700 Speaker 1: stress that this is not considered the primary theory by experts, 164 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:30,700 Speaker 1: but the Nefertiti theory regarding the tomb. 165 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so essentially, Tutte has a very small and... I mean, 166 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,210 Speaker 2: if you go there and look at it, it's just 167 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:41,980 Speaker 2: a tiny little space. And it really... It doesn't call 168 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:43,940 Speaker 2: to mind what you would expect for a king, especially 169 00:09:43,980 --> 00:09:46,780 Speaker 2: a powerful pharaoh to have. And part of that might 170 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:50,540 Speaker 2: have been, you know, his his family again was disliked, 171 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,230 Speaker 2: but he died fairly quickly, we think, probably of malaria 172 00:09:55,250 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 2: or something like that. And there are questions about where 173 00:10:00,220 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: he is, whether that tomb was intended for him or not. 174 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: It could have been that he died so quickly, they 175 00:10:06,450 --> 00:10:08,989 Speaker 2: just had to do something with the body, and he 176 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:12,069 Speaker 2: ended up getting someone else's tomb. And there is a 177 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:17,470 Speaker 2: theory out there that it was Nefertiti's tomb, that she... 178 00:10:18,070 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: was buried deeper inside there. And they sort of put 179 00:10:21,380 --> 00:10:23,940 Speaker 2: in a false wall and then just put Tut in 180 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,220 Speaker 2: like the antechamber, essentially, and just let him rest there. Again, 181 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: that's not what most scholars think, but that theory is 182 00:10:30,620 --> 00:10:33,940 Speaker 2: out there. And it's not implausible that it was meant for, 183 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: you know, a lesser lord or something, but they just 184 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,860 Speaker 2: had to use it because they had to put Tut's 185 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:39,500 Speaker 2: body somewhere. 186 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:45,530 Speaker 1: I guess it's just a very almost romantic idea that 187 00:10:45,570 --> 00:10:50,620 Speaker 1: certainly appeals to Egyptomania and And maybe a fascination with 188 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,220 Speaker 1: fictional tales of different tombs, the idea that there could 189 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,449 Speaker 1: be this next layer of undiscovered tomb beyond what we've discovered. 190 00:10:59,030 --> 00:11:01,469 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It really is, like you said, a romantic 191 00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:04,630 Speaker 2: tale where we want to believe it's there. And, you know, 192 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:06,870 Speaker 2: any little bit of evidence people are trying to interpret 193 00:11:06,910 --> 00:11:09,460 Speaker 2: and squeeze into that box. So it would be wonderful 194 00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:11,660 Speaker 2: if it were true. It's just, you know, most scholars 195 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: don't believe it. 196 00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:15,750 Speaker 1: Now, maybe this is a good time to ask a 197 00:11:15,790 --> 00:11:19,730 Speaker 1: little bit about Richard III. Tell us about the surprisingly, 198 00:11:19,830 --> 00:11:22,170 Speaker 1: I guess you could say sort of happy ending for 199 00:11:22,190 --> 00:11:24,309 Speaker 1: the subject of Shakespeare's famous tragedy. 200 00:11:25,070 --> 00:11:30,390 Speaker 2: Yeah. So he was someone who was kind of overthrown famously. 201 00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: I believe he was the last English monarch to die 202 00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:38,620 Speaker 2: on the battlefield. And afterward, a new line took over. 203 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:43,770 Speaker 2: The Tudors took over. And Henry VII, who had dethroned him, 204 00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:47,330 Speaker 2: he and his men abused the body, you know, tossed 205 00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:50,850 Speaker 2: it in a very small grave. And over the years, 206 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: people didn't quite know what happened to it. There were 207 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 2: theories that people, because again, they started putting out propaganda. 208 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:01,179 Speaker 2: Richard III was very disliked. The stories about the princes 209 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:03,740 Speaker 2: in the tower, there were always rumors about these nefarious 210 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:07,110 Speaker 2: things that he'd done. So there were rumors out there 211 00:12:07,150 --> 00:12:11,300 Speaker 2: that they had dug up Richard's body and tossed it 212 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:14,030 Speaker 2: in a river, you know, years and decades later, even 213 00:12:14,130 --> 00:12:17,170 Speaker 2: to kind of humiliate him more. But, you know, there 214 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:20,190 Speaker 2: were rumors that it didn't happen too. And no one 215 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:25,450 Speaker 2: quite knew where the grave was until this filmmaker in 216 00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: England kind of got the idea in her head that 217 00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: she was going to find Richard. And she started looking 218 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,620 Speaker 2: through maps, you know, putting together old maps, trying to 219 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,190 Speaker 2: figure out where it might be. And eventually she decided 220 00:12:37,330 --> 00:12:41,010 Speaker 2: where she was going to dig. She was able to 221 00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 2: raise some money from the Richard III Society, which is 222 00:12:43,510 --> 00:12:46,900 Speaker 2: trying to kind of rehabilitate him from the monster that 223 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:50,180 Speaker 2: we get from Shakespeare's plays. Got some money from them 224 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: and held a dig. And it was in a parking 225 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:59,290 Speaker 2: lot in a town in England. And the filmmaker had 226 00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:02,660 Speaker 2: some kind of woo-woo ideas about it. You know, there 227 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: was a space there that had an R on it, 228 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: which stood for reserved. But she sort of had this 229 00:13:10,179 --> 00:13:12,850 Speaker 2: premonition that it might have stood for Richard. And there 230 00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:15,809 Speaker 2: was a sign to her to dig in this spot. 231 00:13:16,270 --> 00:13:18,570 Speaker 2: Even though it wasn't the most promising spot that they 232 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:21,310 Speaker 2: had found on the map, she kind of insisted that 233 00:13:21,330 --> 00:13:23,390 Speaker 2: they dig there. You know, they were digging all around 234 00:13:23,650 --> 00:13:27,110 Speaker 2: this parking lot. And eventually they did find the body 235 00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:30,589 Speaker 2: underneath that R. So as strange as it sounds, you know, 236 00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:32,410 Speaker 2: she ended up being right at the end, which I 237 00:13:32,429 --> 00:13:35,660 Speaker 2: guess is the important thing. And then they removed the body. 238 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: You know, they did some testing on it, confirmed that 239 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,340 Speaker 2: it was Richard. And then he got reburied in a 240 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:47,429 Speaker 2: nice sort of courtly official funeral in Westminster Abbey. So 241 00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:50,870 Speaker 2: it was really a nice ending, I think, to what 242 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:52,910 Speaker 2: had been sort of a sordid tale for a long time. 243 00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:55,929 Speaker 1: Yeah, because to your point in the book, this is 244 00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:58,809 Speaker 1: what he would have wanted. Certainly with Genghis Khan, he 245 00:13:59,190 --> 00:14:02,250 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be found. But Richard III arguably would 246 00:14:02,290 --> 00:14:05,329 Speaker 1: have wanted his body to be found and properly buried. 247 00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:09,699 Speaker 2: Yeah, with all the pomp and circumstance due with King 248 00:14:09,740 --> 00:14:12,900 Speaker 2: of England. To have an official mass, he's a pious person. 249 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 2: So this is a much happier outcome for him. 250 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,100 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also as you were pointing out, this just 251 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: sounds like a story that should not have had this 252 00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,260 Speaker 1: successful outcome. It just sounds, you know, especially with the 253 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: idea of like seeing the R and thinking, well, this 254 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: is a sign. Like it just doesn't, even reading the chapter, 255 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,070 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this isn't going to work. Surely this 256 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:34,710 Speaker 1: isn't going to get us there. And it does. 257 00:14:35,150 --> 00:14:38,150 Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of the archaeologists she consulted were rolling 258 00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:41,490 Speaker 2: their eyes. You know, archaeology is kind of shifted away 259 00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:44,630 Speaker 2: from the idea of we're looking for big treasures and 260 00:14:44,650 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: we're looking for, you know, King's bodies. It's much more 261 00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: about everyday people. And they just didn't really want to 262 00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:53,460 Speaker 2: be involved in this hunt or what seemed like a 263 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,540 Speaker 2: wild goose chase, a small chance of success. 264 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:08,350 Speaker 1: But, you know, she she was right. Were there any 265 00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:11,330 Speaker 1: lost tombs that didn't make the book because they're just 266 00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:13,690 Speaker 1: simply too lost, like things that were just just more 267 00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:15,090 Speaker 1: legend than anything else? 268 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,820 Speaker 2: I think I hit the big ones in there. Like 269 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: I said, I think a lot of them, we don't 270 00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:23,740 Speaker 2: even know that they're lost, you know, lists of kings 271 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,900 Speaker 2: and things that we just don't know about, or we 272 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,030 Speaker 2: would have no idea where even to look for them nowadays. 273 00:15:30,130 --> 00:15:32,890 Speaker 2: So there it would, yeah, it would be hard to 274 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:34,290 Speaker 2: even know where to look for a lot of them. 275 00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:37,890 Speaker 1: Now you also get into lost bones in a later 276 00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:42,980 Speaker 1: chapter concerning the so-called Peking man. What exactly was this 277 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:45,900 Speaker 1: fossil specimen and where do we think he walked off to? 278 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,460 Speaker 2: So the Peking Man is kind of a strange name. 279 00:15:50,020 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: Peking is the old name for Beijing in previous times. 280 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: And even though it's the Peking Man fossils, it's a 281 00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: group of about 40 men, women and children. It's just 282 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:02,950 Speaker 2: that Peking Man was the traditional name for it. So 283 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:05,790 Speaker 2: that's what we kind of use today. It was a 284 00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:11,230 Speaker 2: set of Homo erectus fossils, which are... We don't know 285 00:16:11,490 --> 00:16:15,750 Speaker 2: exactly human ancestor or not, but they were very widespread 286 00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:22,150 Speaker 2: throughout the ancient world. So common there. But the Peking 287 00:16:22,170 --> 00:16:26,810 Speaker 2: man fossils were a very well-preserved set of them that 288 00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:32,300 Speaker 2: were found in China in the 1920s. And they disappeared 289 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,780 Speaker 2: during the chaos of World War II. And we just 290 00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:38,500 Speaker 2: don't know what happened. Some people think that the invading 291 00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:41,900 Speaker 2: Japanese army got a hold of them. There are hints 292 00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: that they were shipped off to the coast and they 293 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:48,850 Speaker 2: were going to get shipped out on an American ship. 294 00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:51,150 Speaker 2: But then, you know, the U.S. got drawn into the 295 00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:53,810 Speaker 2: war and Japan attacked the ship that was coming to 296 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:57,130 Speaker 2: get it. And we just don't know exactly what happened 297 00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:00,150 Speaker 2: to them. And then there was an even more intriguing 298 00:17:00,190 --> 00:17:03,850 Speaker 2: story with the Chinese Civil War that happened right after 299 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: World War II. There were some Marines that were in 300 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:12,090 Speaker 2: China and they were being surrounded by the communist army. 301 00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:15,750 Speaker 2: And one of them was digging a foxhole to kind 302 00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:18,530 Speaker 2: of put up guns to protect themselves. And he came 303 00:17:18,609 --> 00:17:22,460 Speaker 2: across a buried wooden box. And he thought, well, what 304 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,380 Speaker 2: the heck is this? Why is there a box here? 305 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: Opened it up and saw a bunch of human-ish bones 306 00:17:28,140 --> 00:17:30,300 Speaker 2: in there. and thought to himself, like, that is the 307 00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: last thing I want to think of right now is 308 00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: a bunch of bones while I'm about to die possibly. 309 00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: So he just slammed the lid down, moved over a 310 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 2: few feet, dug the foxhole. He was too busy. But 311 00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:43,230 Speaker 2: then years later, he was watching a television program about 312 00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:45,750 Speaker 2: the lost Peking man bones. And he sort of sat 313 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:47,130 Speaker 2: up in his chair and said, oh, my God, that 314 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:50,750 Speaker 2: I was there. That might have been them. He got 315 00:17:50,790 --> 00:17:55,690 Speaker 2: in touch with an anthropologist in South Africa, very famous 316 00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:59,250 Speaker 2: anthropologist Lieberger. wrote to him about this and Lee Berger 317 00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:04,090 Speaker 2: went to China to look for him. And unfortunately they 318 00:18:04,190 --> 00:18:09,030 Speaker 2: found an industrial area where the old camp had been, 319 00:18:09,050 --> 00:18:11,930 Speaker 2: where they were digging this foxhole. But in a way 320 00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:13,780 Speaker 2: I kind of mentioned in the book, you know, we 321 00:18:13,859 --> 00:18:16,580 Speaker 2: don't know. It could be that they were digging a 322 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: building there. They dug deep a foundation and they destroyed 323 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: the bones or got rid of them for some reason. 324 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,459 Speaker 2: Or it could be, you know, maybe there's another parking 325 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,139 Speaker 2: lot in China and they They might look and find 326 00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:30,300 Speaker 2: those bones beneath the parking lot, just like they did 327 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,740 Speaker 2: with Richard. So it's a possibility that they'll be able 328 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,050 Speaker 2: to find them one day. We just don't know. Oh, wow. 329 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,690 Speaker 1: So this is all just a taste of the overall 330 00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:40,350 Speaker 1: subject of the lost in your new book, The Museum 331 00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:42,889 Speaker 1: of Lost Things. And I was wondering, did this one 332 00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:47,230 Speaker 1: spring directly from your work on Dinner with King Tut, 333 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,419 Speaker 1: or did something else send you in this direction for 334 00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:50,100 Speaker 1: this latest book? 335 00:18:51,230 --> 00:18:54,980 Speaker 2: Yeah, Dinner with King Tut was also an archaeology book. 336 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: So I'd been thinking about archaeology, wanting to do things 337 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,060 Speaker 2: like that. And I guess I was thinking about sort 338 00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:03,820 Speaker 2: of things that are lost. With Dinner with King Tut, 339 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: it was about experimental archaeology. So scientists recreating things from 340 00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: the past. And that had to do with lost sensory information. 341 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:16,060 Speaker 2: So lost tastes, lost food, lost sounds and things like that. 342 00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:20,340 Speaker 2: Whereas this one is a bit more tangible and, you know, 343 00:19:20,420 --> 00:19:24,219 Speaker 2: actual lost objects, things like that, or even some lost languages, 344 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: deciphering lost languages and stuff. I guess what really inspired 345 00:19:28,340 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: me was that, you know, I love going to museums 346 00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:34,260 Speaker 2: and just any type of museum, whether it's natural history or, 347 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:38,379 Speaker 2: you know, historical artifacts. I could spend hours just wandering 348 00:19:38,420 --> 00:19:41,290 Speaker 2: around almost any museum. But the more I did read 349 00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:44,500 Speaker 2: about history, the more I realized kind of how precarious 350 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:48,270 Speaker 2: it is and how lucky we are to have found 351 00:19:48,350 --> 00:19:49,970 Speaker 2: the things that we have. A lot of the stuff 352 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:52,649 Speaker 2: you know, it was just sheer luck that we found it. 353 00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:55,179 Speaker 2: So I started wondering about the flip side of that 354 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,380 Speaker 2: and thinking, you know, what about the things we haven't found, 355 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,060 Speaker 2: the things that didn't make it into the museums? What 356 00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: are the greatest treasures that did not make it into 357 00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:06,540 Speaker 2: the museums because we've lost them? And so I just 358 00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: decided to kind of put a book together about those 359 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:10,140 Speaker 2: amazing lost things. 360 00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: I'm always curious about the road from idea to completion 361 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: with a project like this. Were there certain lost things 362 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: you knew you were going to go out and research 363 00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:23,530 Speaker 1: and discuss? And then were there any that just kind 364 00:20:23,550 --> 00:20:25,189 Speaker 1: of emerged out of the research itself? 365 00:20:26,109 --> 00:20:28,870 Speaker 2: Yeah, lost languages was what I definitely wanted to cover. 366 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:33,690 Speaker 2: So Egyptian hieroglyphs, linear B. I just think the whole 367 00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:37,190 Speaker 2: process is just fascinating, how they can read lost languages. 368 00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: So definitely wanted to include that. Um, Peking man, I 369 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: wanted to get into that. Um, the Indus Valley civilization, uh, 370 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: which is a very, uh, it was a very prominent 371 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,300 Speaker 2: civilization in India and what's now India and Pakistan, um, in, 372 00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 2: in BC. So very thousands of years ago. Um, that's 373 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,859 Speaker 2: a really fascinating one because it combines aspects of a 374 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: lost civilization with a lost language. So I wanted to 375 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,010 Speaker 2: cover that one. One kind of surprising one that didn't 376 00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:12,430 Speaker 2: make much, I didn't have much material on it, was 377 00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:16,070 Speaker 2: the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. I thought I 378 00:21:16,090 --> 00:21:17,970 Speaker 2: was going to have maybe a whole chapter about those, 379 00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: but I just couldn't dig up enough story about them. 380 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: They're kind of interesting as a list, or to get 381 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:27,940 Speaker 2: a little information about them, but it just didn't rise 382 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 2: to the level of a chapter, because in some cases 383 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: we just don't know a lot about them, or there's 384 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 2: no real... I guess, human element to it. It's just 385 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: we're talking about a building, which is interesting, but maybe 386 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,110 Speaker 2: not fully interesting for a for a full chapter like that. 387 00:21:44,190 --> 00:21:46,050 Speaker 2: So that was one that kind of surprised me that 388 00:21:46,150 --> 00:21:47,790 Speaker 2: didn't play as big a role in the book. 389 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:50,209 Speaker 1: Now, is there anything in the book that you cover 390 00:21:50,250 --> 00:21:53,930 Speaker 1: that that's currently lost that if you were a betting man, 391 00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:57,310 Speaker 1: you might bet on being found the next couple of years? 392 00:21:59,350 --> 00:22:03,629 Speaker 2: Oh, boy, which one would it be? 393 00:22:05,619 --> 00:22:07,940 Speaker 1: And we're not going to hold you to this. Okay. 394 00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:12,980 Speaker 2: Not going on Polymarket for this. You know, there are 395 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,740 Speaker 2: people looking for Genghis Khan grape. If we did find 396 00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:21,310 Speaker 2: something like that, I would not be surprised about that. Oh, 397 00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:24,389 Speaker 2: another one I think is almost certainly going to happen. 398 00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:29,110 Speaker 2: There's a lot of people nowadays looking in the Amazon 399 00:22:29,290 --> 00:22:32,410 Speaker 2: and they're using a technology called LiDAR. So essentially you 400 00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:36,350 Speaker 2: fly a plane or a drone over and use lasers 401 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:40,899 Speaker 2: to shoot the beam down and it can essentially read 402 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,580 Speaker 2: what's beneath the canopy in the jump. So they're finding 403 00:22:45,619 --> 00:22:49,619 Speaker 2: a lot of earthworks in the Amazon right now and 404 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:56,690 Speaker 2: realizing just how extensive the extensive buildings and things people 405 00:22:56,730 --> 00:23:00,030 Speaker 2: had there. There's a long standing idea, I think, that 406 00:23:00,770 --> 00:23:03,370 Speaker 2: It was people just kind of living in huts and 407 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:06,070 Speaker 2: kind of going about more of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. But 408 00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:08,730 Speaker 2: we're realizing there were a lot of building, a lot 409 00:23:08,770 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: of kind of civilization, what we would call a quote-unquote 410 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:14,540 Speaker 2: civilization there. They were building giant things and had roads 411 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,179 Speaker 2: and earthworks and temples and things like that that we 412 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:20,220 Speaker 2: just didn't know about before. So that is one I 413 00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:22,990 Speaker 2: think that's going to be pretty prominent. And there's a 414 00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:25,090 Speaker 2: lot of exciting work coming out of there about a 415 00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:27,909 Speaker 2: potential lost civilization in the Amazon. 416 00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:32,260 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, yeah, I'm excited to see what develops there. 417 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:32,820 Speaker 2: Yeah. 418 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,810 Speaker 1: Well, Sam, thanks again for coming back on the show. 419 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:38,450 Speaker 1: The book, again, for everyone out there, is The Museum 420 00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:41,810 Speaker 1: of Lost Things, out now in all formats. And I 421 00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:45,100 Speaker 1: believe folks can listen to a sample in your podcast feed, right? 422 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: They can. The podcast is called Disappearing Spoon, like the 423 00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: name of my first book. And there's an audio excerpt 424 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,109 Speaker 2: on there about the lost graves chapter. 425 00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:59,109 Speaker 1: Excellent. All right, well, yeah, thanks again for coming on 426 00:23:59,150 --> 00:24:01,869 Speaker 1: the show. Hope the book is a big success and 427 00:24:01,890 --> 00:24:04,389 Speaker 1: I hope the rest of your October is fun and 428 00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:05,270 Speaker 1: appropriately spooky. 429 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:06,590 Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for having me. 430 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,139 Speaker 1: All right, thanks again to Sam for coming on the show. 431 00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: That book's title, again, is The Museum of Lost Things. 432 00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:24,270 Speaker 1: You can get it now, however you get your books, 433 00:24:24,530 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: however you consume your books. And check out his website 434 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: as well at samkeen.com. Thanks, as always, to the excellent J.J. 435 00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:33,659 Speaker 1: Possway for producing the show. And if you want to 436 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: reach out with any questions, suggestions, or recommendations, you can 437 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:49,780 Speaker 1: do so by emailing us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. Stuff 438 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,500 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. For 439 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,260 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, 440 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,100 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.