Speaker 1: Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda Land Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the
Speaker 1: second season of Criminalia. This season, we're exploring the lives
Speaker 1: and motivations of some of the most notorious stalkers throughout history.
Speaker 1: I'm Maria Tramrqui and I'm Holly Fry, and today we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about a rather famous stalker in history,
Speaker 1: Lady Caroline Lamb, who stalked George Gordon Byron. You probably
Speaker 1: know him best as the poet Lord Byron. And Byron
Speaker 1: was born into an aristocratic and dysfunctional family in and
Speaker 1: he went on, of course to become one of the
Speaker 1: most influential and celebrated poets of the Romantic Movement, along
Speaker 1: with five other names that you will almost certainly recognize
Speaker 1: William Blake, William Wordsworth, and Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who are
Speaker 1: often grouped in as the early part of that, and
Speaker 1: then with Byron, Percy Biss Shelley and John Keats. But
Speaker 1: the sixth combined kind of make up the famous Romantic movements. Yes,
Speaker 1: the considered most influential um the Romantic Movement was one
Speaker 1: that believed that our inner world gives us endless creative possibilities,
Speaker 1: as well as new ways of thinking and living and
Speaker 1: um Today, even Byron continues to be an icon in literature.
Speaker 1: You read him in high school, you read him in college.
Speaker 1: Some might argue that he was made famous by his
Speaker 1: autobiographical poem Child Harold's Pilgrimage, but others argue he's better
Speaker 1: known for his satirical poem Don Juan. Most of us,
Speaker 1: they'll probably know him from the iconic and beloved poem
Speaker 1: she Walks in Beauty. I mean, everybody knows the first
Speaker 1: two lines of them. But it wasn't just his poetry
Speaker 1: that garnered everyone's attention. It was also his great many
Speaker 1: sexual escapades. His passionately lived life made him kind of
Speaker 1: a rock star for his day. He was notoriously handsome,
Speaker 1: notorious for hadding many lovers, and many of them inspired
Speaker 1: his works. And one of these lovers was a wealthy
Speaker 1: aristocrat named Lady Caroline Lamb. Both she and Byron were
Speaker 1: part of the literary circle scene, and they first met
Speaker 1: at a society event in London in early eighteen twelve.
Speaker 1: And some reports kind of indicate that Byron was not
Speaker 1: really particularly fond of Caroline until they had spent a
Speaker 1: little bit of time together. Others suggest that she got
Speaker 1: together with him after she wrote him a fan letter
Speaker 1: regarding one of those works. Maria just mentioned child Harold's
Speaker 1: pilgrimage and that in response to that letter he visited her.
Speaker 1: And that might have also been motivated because she had
Speaker 1: a whole lot of money and the very high status
Speaker 1: at society. I believe he looked upon that in a
Speaker 1: very friendly ways. He was many things, but you know,
Speaker 1: he was no fool. He knew how the latter work
Speaker 1: he did, and he knew that his aristocratic family was
Speaker 1: going down, not up. Uh, you know. Regardless of which
Speaker 1: of those stories happens to be true, the two did
Speaker 1: have an affair, and that was from March through August
Speaker 1: twelve UM. That was the year that Holly was talking
Speaker 1: about that they met, and the affair was really well
Speaker 1: publicized and it was really passionate. They were both in
Speaker 1: their twenties. Caroline was twenty six and Byron was twenty four.
Speaker 1: He called her Carol, which she used as her public nickname.
Speaker 1: It was for Byron who had said she coined the phrase,
Speaker 1: and I'm quoting this mad, bad and dangerous to know,
Speaker 1: and it said that she coined it after she read
Speaker 1: Child Harold's pilgrimage Um, and that phrase actually became his
Speaker 1: lasting epitaph. I think everybody associates that with Lord Byron.
Speaker 1: I think so too, Yeah, right. I also love it
Speaker 1: when people referenced that phrase and they don't know the
Speaker 1: Byron and Caroline story at all. They're right, No, I
Speaker 1: just thought it was a cool phrase you used to
Speaker 1: describe people that were, you know, kind of jaunty players
Speaker 1: like not not yes, but no right, yes. However, there's content.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. At the time of this affair, Caroline
Speaker 1: was married to William Lamb. William and Caroline's meeting in
Speaker 1: courtship had actually been orchestrated by William's mother, and the
Speaker 1: two were we quote mutually captivated by each other, so
Speaker 1: it seemed like they started out quite well. They married
Speaker 1: in eighteen o five, that is the year that Caroline
Speaker 1: turned nineteen. That is also the year that William took
Speaker 1: on the title Lord Melbourne. So the Lambs had one child.
Speaker 1: His name was George Augustus Frederick and he was born
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh seven, and they had him after they
Speaker 1: experienced a few miscarriages. Augustus, as they called him, he
Speaker 1: was born with mental health problems as well as epilepsy,
Speaker 1: and he required constant care. Most aristocratic families would have
Speaker 1: sent their relatives with any type of challenge, whether it
Speaker 1: was physical or mental, to an institution. They would not
Speaker 1: have kept them home, But William and Caroline cared for
Speaker 1: Augustus themselves until his death in eighteen six. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is also one of those many cases we stumble across
Speaker 1: in history where the exact nature of his problems is
Speaker 1: not really clearly defined. It's not and often you come
Speaker 1: across really outdated terminology and it's really difficult to sort
Speaker 1: of discern. You know, do they mean that he was autistic?
Speaker 1: We don't know as we're talking about all of this.
Speaker 1: If the name Lord Melbourne rings a bell for you,
Speaker 1: or if you know your Queen Victoria history like Holly does,
Speaker 1: that's the same guy. William was a senior statesman, and
Speaker 1: he also famously mentored Queen Victoria when she was very
Speaker 1: young to its own scandal and gossip. And during that
Speaker 1: same time, he of course became the husband unexpectedly involved
Speaker 1: in one of the most scandalous affairs of the nineteenth century.
Speaker 1: That summer, everyone I think, almost literally, I think in
Speaker 1: their circle was talking about his wife's affair with the
Speaker 1: poet Lord Byron. So this actually wasn't even the first
Speaker 1: scandal that he had been through with his wife. Before
Speaker 1: Caroline met Byron, she had had an affair with Sir
Speaker 1: Godfrey Webster, who was an English politician. That she confessed
Speaker 1: this affair to William, it wasn't nearly as public as
Speaker 1: her affair with Byron, and William forgave her. So it's
Speaker 1: worth noting here that William also is not necessarily like
Speaker 1: a saint of monogamy any of this. It is very
Speaker 1: possible that he had affairs of his own throughout their marriage.
Speaker 1: Sources disagree on it, but it's entirely possible. As we said,
Speaker 1: Sources also disagree on whether or not William was inclined
Speaker 1: to what some people at the time would have considered
Speaker 1: more deviant sexual desires and behaviors. This is all personal
Speaker 1: private stuff, so there's no real way to know what
Speaker 1: his preferences were or weren't. You can even ask questions
Speaker 1: as to whether or not that's our business or relevance exactly.
Speaker 1: But what we do know is that Caroline once wrote
Speaker 1: in a letter that and we quote he called me prudent,
Speaker 1: said I was straight laced. But whether or not her
Speaker 1: husband found her prudish, her reputation in London society was
Speaker 1: anything but. And Caroline's involvement with Lord Byron was very
Speaker 1: public knowledge, as we've been saying this whole time, and
Speaker 1: the public found it shocking. We're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick break right now, and when we return, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about things that aren't prudish or straight laced.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Criminalia. We're going to talk about that affair.
Speaker 1: But first we're gonna go back and talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about Caroline's childhood. Yeah, so let's take a minute
Speaker 1: to get to know who Caroline was and how she
Speaker 1: grew up. So she was born on November into as
Speaker 1: we've said earlier, Uh, the aristocratic leaked. So her life
Speaker 1: has actually been described as insular, inbred, and superficial. Uh
Speaker 1: sorry for three words. I just don't want my life
Speaker 1: to be described an everything you want exactly. But she herself,
Speaker 1: she was considered graceful and pretty, and she had reddish
Speaker 1: blonde hair and freckles across her cheeks. She was portrayed
Speaker 1: by one biographer as more like a fairy than a
Speaker 1: human being. Another biographer referred to her and I'm going
Speaker 1: to quote on this small kittenish ways of showing her
Speaker 1: affection with kisses that touched the cheek and tiny intimate caresses,
Speaker 1: and he continued that theme by saying that quote her
Speaker 1: mouth could spit venom as well as list endearments. And
Speaker 1: that part sure seems to be true. So it was rumored,
Speaker 1: and by rumored, what we mean is that some modern
Speaker 1: historians do acknowledge this and believe it. Others do not.
Speaker 1: Unt that Caroline had grown up as a tomboy, considered
Speaker 1: being able to wash a dog of most satisfying accomplishment,
Speaker 1: and that she was unable to read or write until
Speaker 1: she was a teenager. However, we also know that most
Speaker 1: of this is probably just hearsaying. Not only was she
Speaker 1: very well educated at home, with an extensive curriculum and
Speaker 1: a governess to ensure that she adhered to that curriculum,
Speaker 1: she also attended elite schools in London, and so those
Speaker 1: characterizations that suggest that she was less than an ideal
Speaker 1: lady may have simply been born from idle gossip in
Speaker 1: response to what you might call her very free spirit,
Speaker 1: right exactly, Um, And sometimes things just catch on in
Speaker 1: the historical record. Yeah, I was. You can't do anything
Speaker 1: bad there. Um. While she was still a young adult,
Speaker 1: Caroline began writing prose and poetry, and she also really
Speaker 1: enjoyed music and drama. She was interested in and she
Speaker 1: got to be pretty good at sketching portrait. She spoke
Speaker 1: French and Italian fluently, and her knowledge of both Greek
Speaker 1: and Latin were at the very least passable. So not
Speaker 1: the uneducated fool that people may have wanted to paint
Speaker 1: her as at all. No, unless she was speaking in
Speaker 1: French to her dog as she washed him, I don't
Speaker 1: she might, but even so, still a different language. She
Speaker 1: also began writing, and she started doing this as a
Speaker 1: way to escape from her mental and emotional problems, which
Speaker 1: allegedly made her prone to temper tantrums and angry outbursts
Speaker 1: something I don't have any knowledge of it all. Never
Speaker 1: have a tantrum. Ever, She was considered we quote volcanic,
Speaker 1: and later she was described by Byron as an exaggerated woman.
Speaker 1: Her behavior was unsurprisingly troublesome to her aristocratic family. She
Speaker 1: also experimented with sedatives such as laudanum, and eventually her
Speaker 1: parents hired a special governors just to look after her.
Speaker 1: So during her affair with Byron, Caroline was also considered
Speaker 1: volcanic um. For instance, upon seeing him speaking and this
Speaker 1: is just speaking, he wasn't getting handsy to another woman,
Speaker 1: Caroline broke a glass in her hand. Because she was
Speaker 1: so upset, she often dressed up as a page boy
Speaker 1: so she could sneak in and gain access to Byron's rooms,
Speaker 1: which spoiler alert, is a trick that she also tried
Speaker 1: after the affair ended, and that affair is said to
Speaker 1: have concluded rather abruptly. Byron basically cut it off and
Speaker 1: then quickly found new paramours to occupy his time. And
Speaker 1: when Byron ended the affair, that didn't end well for Caroline. Unsurprisingly,
Speaker 1: not only was she still super into him. There's no
Speaker 1: caps for that word super like, there's no big caps
Speaker 1: in the world for how super into him ship. It's
Speaker 1: like billboard level. But the thing is her reputation London
Speaker 1: society was also completely trashed. Yeah, so William took her
Speaker 1: to Ireland in an effort to put some distance between
Speaker 1: themselves and the affair and to sidestep the whole hotbed
Speaker 1: of gossip that never seemed to end. But distance really
Speaker 1: didn't change anything about Caroline's interest in obsession with Byron.
Speaker 1: In fact, the two actually continued to correspond while she
Speaker 1: was away from home. But when Caroline returned to London
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirteen, Byron made it clear that he had
Speaker 1: no intention of continuing a romantic relationship with her. He said, quote,
Speaker 1: she is a good study for a couple of years
Speaker 1: at best. When he was speaking to his longtime friends
Speaker 1: Sir James Webster about his relationship with Caroline, which is
Speaker 1: kind of a callous jerk. Yeah, that you like, even
Speaker 1: if he said it like to his best friend, which
Speaker 1: one is but too like now we all know it
Speaker 1: like I can't Yeah, Byron, he has his reputation. Byron
Speaker 1: adventured and woman I and Caroline continued to send him letters.
Speaker 1: All of this was happening. Uh. He stopped responding to
Speaker 1: her correspondence, but she didn't give up, And it was
Speaker 1: two years after their affair ended and she was still
Speaker 1: writing to him. And I can quote from one of
Speaker 1: her letters which goes, I loved you as no woman
Speaker 1: ever could love because I'm not like them, but more
Speaker 1: like a beast who sees no crime in loving and
Speaker 1: following its master. You became such to me, master of
Speaker 1: my soul more than anything else. Yeah, very kind of
Speaker 1: a you know, very tepid sort of after two years,
Speaker 1: I mean, my goodness was getting no reply. And this
Speaker 1: is just with letters, just with letters. So while we
Speaker 1: consider all of that, we're going to pause and have
Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we return, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about all of the different ways that Caroline stalked
Speaker 1: Lord Byron. Welcome back to Criminalia. Letters. It turns out
Speaker 1: weren't actually the only way that Caroline tried to get
Speaker 1: Byron's attention, right, We talked before about all of the
Speaker 1: various things. She did so in a creative sense, so
Speaker 1: she kind of turned that same creative energy to this.
Speaker 1: While she was writing him all of these love letters,
Speaker 1: she was also bad mouthing him to everyone. Did you
Speaker 1: have ears? You were going to hear um? When she
Speaker 1: was caught sneaking into his house, she threatened to kill
Speaker 1: herself with a knife. She burned his effigies, gifts, and
Speaker 1: copies of his letters in a bonfire while having a
Speaker 1: group of local kids recite a poem that she had
Speaker 1: written about him. Deep ritualistic situation going on there. Just
Speaker 1: got to move on from that, right enterprising? But yes,
Speaker 1: that is a true story. And if you're not already
Speaker 1: thinking about the eighties movie Fatal Attraction, well, she also allegedly,
Speaker 1: and this is rather lud yes, take a pause for
Speaker 1: this one, she sent him clippings of her pubic hair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it continues, all right, that didn't end with pubic hair. Also,
Speaker 1: I never thought i'd be discussing that stalker show. However,
Speaker 1: here we are. Another time, when she was unable to
Speaker 1: gain access to his home, she wrote the words remember
Speaker 1: me on a blank page in one of Byron's books.
Speaker 1: He did respond to that, but not how she had hoped.
Speaker 1: In fact, he wrote what you could consider a hate
Speaker 1: poem to her, which I have a little snippet of
Speaker 1: this stands and went like this, remember THEE. I doubt
Speaker 1: it not? Thy husband too shall think of THEE? By
Speaker 1: neither shalt thou be forgot thou falls to him? Thou
Speaker 1: fiend to me? Hate poem. Caroline had also become really
Speaker 1: good at impersonating Byron's work, which is really creepy to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this included his handwriting, so she was signing his name
Speaker 1: to work that she was writing. And on top of
Speaker 1: impersonating him as a poet, she also wrote letters in
Speaker 1: his style. One interesting little fact that was uncovered about
Speaker 1: her letters is that she sent one as Byron to
Speaker 1: Byron's publisher. So at that point it's beyond creepy and
Speaker 1: messing with someone's livelihood. And in that letter, she actually
Speaker 1: deceived the publisher into sending her a portrait of him,
Speaker 1: because that's what she needed, a portrait of Byron at
Speaker 1: his point in her life, because her obsession just continued.
Speaker 1: So when Byron publicly bad mouthed her at a ball,
Speaker 1: she smashed a wineglass and tried to cut her wrists,
Speaker 1: to which Byron reacted by describing her act as nothing
Speaker 1: more than the theater and commenting quote Lady Lynn performed
Speaker 1: the dagger scene in reference to the Shakespeare play Macbeth callous.
Speaker 1: Nobody is doing it right at this point, right now,
Speaker 1: this is a train wreck. Caroline plunged into a depression
Speaker 1: after this and started to drink a great deal as
Speaker 1: a way to cope with her heartbreak. She also, at
Speaker 1: this time wrote a book Glenarvon, which was a satire
Speaker 1: that was released in eighteen sixteen, only a few weeks
Speaker 1: after Byron's permanent departure from England. That book was published anonymously,
Speaker 1: but the intimate details of her romance with Byron, details
Speaker 1: about her husband, and scathing commentary about other aristocrats made
Speaker 1: it absolutely easy to guess who had written that particular
Speaker 1: piece of literature. If she any more gossip about herself,
Speaker 1: this book did it? Everybody knew that she wrote this book.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure she was welcome in any of her
Speaker 1: circles at this point. Byron responded to the novel, which
Speaker 1: he actually did read it, and he said it and
Speaker 1: we quote, I read Glenarvan by Carol Lamb goddamn. And
Speaker 1: when he wrote his famous poem John Juan, it was
Speaker 1: published about three years after Caroline's book, he actually included
Speaker 1: some passages that alluded to her, and one line really
Speaker 1: can't be mistaken. He wrote some play the Devil and
Speaker 1: then write a novel. Caroline replied to Byron's taunts with
Speaker 1: her own poem, which was titled a New Canto, but
Speaker 1: Byron never responded to it. And actually historians believe it
Speaker 1: is because he likely never even read it, and most critics,
Speaker 1: to be honest, or many of them at the time,
Speaker 1: considered Caroline's book to be and this is harsh, unreadable
Speaker 1: pulp fiction. It was so controversial that her in laws
Speaker 1: tried to have it banned from further publication. They were unsuccessful.
Speaker 1: They also tried to have her diagnosed, as we quote
Speaker 1: because as a term at the time certified insane. Again unsuccessful.
Speaker 1: Embarrass and disgraced by his wife's indiscretions, William decided that
Speaker 1: it would be best for the pair to separate, but
Speaker 1: at the end of the day neither of them went
Speaker 1: through with that. Really, like to make very clear, this
Speaker 1: would be like a very high profile politician today having
Speaker 1: a spouse very publicly having affairs, but then also very
Speaker 1: publicly obsessing over someone like picture, someone married to a
Speaker 1: politician having had an affair with a famous actor. That
Speaker 1: actor takes off, moves on with his life, and that
Speaker 1: person continues to publicly obsess over them for years, wildly embarrassing,
Speaker 1: particularly in Victorian England. I believe actually through a lot
Speaker 1: of their marriage they weren't actually living together. I might
Speaker 1: be wrong on that, but it seems like he would
Speaker 1: travel a lot and live in different places because of
Speaker 1: his various roles in politics. So um, you know there's there.
Speaker 1: There's that too. You know we're never together, so why
Speaker 1: bother actually going through the divorce? Right? And Caroline died
Speaker 1: four years later on January in London. She had, as
Speaker 1: we said, taken to drinking very heavily. Apparently she favored
Speaker 1: sherry if you believe reports, and it is said that
Speaker 1: her death at a mere age forty two, was accelerated
Speaker 1: by alcohol and laudan amuse. William, who at this point
Speaker 1: was Chief Secretary for Ireland, traveled to be at her bedtime.
Speaker 1: So during the time that she lived in Caroline's behavior
Speaker 1: might not have actually been called stalking. The behavior was there,
Speaker 1: but the terminology necessarily wasn't um. But what she was
Speaker 1: doing she was absolutely engaging in stalking behavior. She was
Speaker 1: not only persistent, she was confusing reality with fantasy. And
Speaker 1: these are things we know that can happen when someone
Speaker 1: is stalking. Some have written of her that she was
Speaker 1: behaving as though she were and this was a quote
Speaker 1: that that I came across the heroine of a melodrama.
Speaker 1: At one point Byron remarked very similarly that she was
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna quote him here, heated by novel reading,
Speaker 1: which made her fancy herself the heroine of romance and
Speaker 1: led her into all sorts of eccentricities. And Caroline's obsession
Speaker 1: with Lord Byron defined the last roughly fifteen years of
Speaker 1: her life. But if you are aching to find a
Speaker 1: positive out of all of this turmoil, just one, just
Speaker 1: just one minor one, you could make the case that
Speaker 1: her behavior and this affair also influenced both her and
Speaker 1: Byron's writing. So if you enjoyed Byron's work, know that
Speaker 1: some of that came out of going through this very
Speaker 1: strange affair and having this person never really get over him.
Speaker 1: But instead of being remembered in history as a serious
Speaker 1: writer and a poet, because remember, Caroline did have her
Speaker 1: own literary talents, despite those scathing reviews of Glenn Arvan,
Speaker 1: and she wrote three more novels. And so the interesting
Speaker 1: twist here is that while she coined that phrase to
Speaker 1: describe iron is mad, bad and dangerous to know it
Speaker 1: really is more appropriate probably for her. I agree, I
Speaker 1: completely agree. Are you projecting? Are you feeling okay today? Caroline? Um?
Speaker 1: So for anybody who's familiar with Downton Abbey. This is
Speaker 1: definitely an appropriate moment to remember the words of the
Speaker 1: Dowager Countess. The only poet Pierre I am familiar with
Speaker 1: is Lord Byron, and I presume we all know how
Speaker 1: that ended. I'm sure we are all imagining Maggie Smith
Speaker 1: saying Lord Byron, the poet Pierre likely died of malaria
Speaker 1: in Greece in four He was only thirty six years old,
Speaker 1: so before she passed, certainly, and another you know, incidents
Speaker 1: of life taken rather quickly. This isn't a super fun
Speaker 1: ending for this episode. This isn't a super fun episode.
Speaker 1: Like the fun thing about it is if you remove
Speaker 1: yourself from you know, knowing that they're actually real people
Speaker 1: who were involved in this. It sounds like a crazy
Speaker 1: Hollywood script, but it's not. It's real and she really
Speaker 1: did have these problems and Byron was not particularly kind
Speaker 1: and like this whole this a whole script, the whole
Speaker 1: life that they had. It doesn't seem like it was
Speaker 1: fifteen years. It seems like it was an entire lifetime. Right.
Speaker 1: So Holly, now that we've gone through Lady Lam and
Speaker 1: Lord Byron, what would we toast them with if we
Speaker 1: were to have some sort of drink in there, who yeah,
Speaker 1: in their honor. So as I was reading this, what
Speaker 1: I kept thinking was, I want a drink that feels
Speaker 1: very comforting after all of this as well. I mean,
Speaker 1: we have to acknowledge we are living in a very
Speaker 1: strange time, So a comfort cocktail sounded great to me
Speaker 1: for that reason as well. UM And so I came
Speaker 1: up with something called I Think I'm in love, which is,
Speaker 1: you know very much about um, a person who is
Speaker 1: obsessed in this manner. They're not actually in real love.
Speaker 1: They are in obsession, but they think they're in love.
Speaker 1: But also my thing is that if you shared similar
Speaker 1: taste to me, when you sip this, you will go, oh,
Speaker 1: I think I'm in love with this drink. So it's
Speaker 1: super easy. It starts with hot chocolate. Oh, I'm actually
Speaker 1: really surprised by that. So I do your hot chocolate
Speaker 1: however you do it. If you like instant hot chocolate,
Speaker 1: go crazy. I like to make hot chocolate, you know,
Speaker 1: with cocoa powder and milk. That way I can control
Speaker 1: the sweetness level myself. And sometimes I also throw a
Speaker 1: little vanilla extract in there too. Just make it a
Speaker 1: little warmer. However, you like your hot chocolate, you just
Speaker 1: want to start with a mug of hot chocolate and
Speaker 1: then you add an ounce of brandy and two ounces
Speaker 1: of white chocolate liqueur and it just makes a nice, warm,
Speaker 1: cuddly cup of alcohol. I wish that Caroline had just
Speaker 1: stayed home and made that drink, right, although she had
Speaker 1: a drinking problem, so maybe not so much. Well that
Speaker 1: was you know, she turned to it for Byron, so
Speaker 1: maybe if she stayed home with her hot chocolate, she
Speaker 1: would have been write a little boozy hot chocolate. I um,
Speaker 1: I know white chocolate is not for everybody, and white
Speaker 1: chocolate liqueur can be a turn off for some people.
Speaker 1: If you don't, you could use regular chocolate liqueur um,
Speaker 1: like a milk chocolate liqueur or even a dark chocolate one.
Speaker 1: It'll just change the profile of it a little bit,
Speaker 1: but it would still work and you can dial it down.
Speaker 1: For me, two ounces felt right. That might seem like
Speaker 1: a lot, but for something like that, that's a very
Speaker 1: heavy ISSH liquor. You know, there's a lot of milkiness
Speaker 1: going on there and stuff. It doesn't seem like the
Speaker 1: same as if you had two ounces of like a
Speaker 1: heavier spirit. So that's what's up. I think I'm in
Speaker 1: love as much as you can be with a cup
Speaker 1: of hot chocolate. We would like to thank you for
Speaker 1: hanging with us and spending this time and hopefully enjoying
Speaker 1: our sometimes silly, this time a little depressing walk through
Speaker 1: the criminals of history, and we hope that we will
Speaker 1: join us once again back here on Criminalia. Criminalia is
Speaker 1: a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, please
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
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