Speaker 1: My name is bridget Todd, and I am here with
Speaker 1: my producer, Sophie Hey bridget Hey listeners, so you might
Speaker 1: already know me from my podcast There are No Girls
Speaker 1: on the Internet, And as you can probably tell from
Speaker 1: that title, I make podcasts about the Internet, specifically how
Speaker 1: people who are traditionally marginalized, so women, black folks, queer folks,
Speaker 1: trans folks, sex workers, low income folks and the like,
Speaker 1: have shaped what it means to be on the Internet.
Speaker 1: And I do that because I know that making sure
Speaker 1: the contributions of these communities are in the spotlight takes intention.
Speaker 1: It's already really easy for these communities and their voices
Speaker 1: to be overlooked unless we make a real point to
Speaker 1: do so. So it's already hard enough to make sure
Speaker 1: the experiences of marginalized people are not overlooked. But when
Speaker 1: you add in the ephemeral nature of the Internet, it
Speaker 1: becomes even less likely that these voices and their contributions
Speaker 1: and experiences will be chronicled. The Internet moves quickly, tweets
Speaker 1: are scrubbed, websites come down. Who will remember what happens
Speaker 1: online if we don't do the work of archiving it
Speaker 1: and building monuments to it. So that's what I've been doing,
Speaker 1: and I've gotten to do a lot of that work
Speaker 1: about some of the ways that brilliant, marginalized people have
Speaker 1: been using the Internet to make culture and art and movements,
Speaker 1: and it has been so inspiring. But I am sad
Speaker 1: to say that as true as it is that traditionally
Speaker 1: marginalized people are doing really cool ship online, it is
Speaker 1: also true that those same people are the ones who
Speaker 1: are being targeted online in really scary and infuriating ways.
Speaker 1: And when it happens, it can feel like it just
Speaker 1: goes overlooked. You know, we don't really get the opportunity
Speaker 1: to learn from it or take anything away from it,
Speaker 1: and as the Internet does, everyone just kind of moves on.
Speaker 1: And you know what, I don't like that. So on
Speaker 1: this podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to right that wrong.
Speaker 1: We'll be telling the stories of women who were harassed online,
Speaker 1: how it happened, why it happened, and what it all
Speaker 1: means for the rest of us, because I think there
Speaker 1: is this real misconception about online harassment that it is individual.
Speaker 1: You know, when you see someone being harassed on the internet,
Speaker 1: people think, wow, I wonder what she did to be
Speaker 1: deserving of that kind of treatment, or they might think
Speaker 1: I am glad I am not her. But the truth is,
Speaker 1: harassment online isn't just individual. It's systemic, and it's institutional,
Speaker 1: and even if we specifically are not the ones on
Speaker 1: the receiving end of it, it still has really big
Speaker 1: implications for all of us. The first time that I
Speaker 1: really saw this play out on build time was with
Speaker 1: former Saturday Night Live comedian Leslie Jones, and her story,
Speaker 1: which is one of the stories that we will talk
Speaker 1: about in depth this season, is one that really opened
Speaker 1: my eyes. So, Sophie, do you remember Leslie Jones? Do
Speaker 1: you know what happened with her? Yeah? Leslie jen is
Speaker 1: one of the best performers on SNL and all time
Speaker 1: great really just one of the funniest people ever who
Speaker 1: was kind of at the time, somebody who seemed to
Speaker 1: really have Twitter comedy down and was very much loved
Speaker 1: universally get absolutely harassed by the Internet, specifically by one
Speaker 1: guy who I recall saying it stuck with me, saying
Speaker 1: that trolling was important and that with like no remorse
Speaker 1: for the the things that he did, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: it continues to do to two people to this day,
Speaker 1: I want to tell me more, Well, absolutely, you are
Speaker 1: entirely correct. So in all of my research on the
Speaker 1: way that online harassment works, I've seen time and time
Speaker 1: again that Milo Napolis, former tech editor at right bart
Speaker 1: News and right Wing ship Head, really ushered in that
Speaker 1: wave of trolling being seen as a form of activism
Speaker 1: in and of itself. Milo Unapolis represents the tip of
Speaker 1: the iceberg in a rising tide of hate and abuse
Speaker 1: in social media when he clearly sees as a noble
Speaker 1: appropriate trolling is very important. Trolling is absolutely essential. America
Speaker 1: needs more trolling because trolls so the the only people who
Speaker 1: tell the truth these days. Many joined him on this crusade. Mr.
Speaker 1: Trolling is important in himself my cool and so he
Speaker 1: really ushered that in as like a vibe where people
Speaker 1: who were trolling in this way saw it as a
Speaker 1: form of activism and saw it as a way to
Speaker 1: reclaim and build political and social power online and cultural
Speaker 1: power online. And so Leslie Jones, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 1: She was all time great on Saturday Night Live, and
Speaker 1: she was one of those sort of early celebrities who
Speaker 1: was good at Twitter. You know that that brand of celebrity.
Speaker 1: She was known for live tweeting things like the Olympics
Speaker 1: or other big events, and everyone loved her right like
Speaker 1: she was be loved on Twitter. Her tweets live tweeting
Speaker 1: events would be you know, chronicled in those BuzzFeed list
Speaker 1: of calls Michael thirty of Leslie Jones best tweets abou
Speaker 1: the Olympics, things like that. It was very of a
Speaker 1: of an era, I guess I'll put it that way.
Speaker 1: And so her tweeting, her use of the platform Twitter
Speaker 1: really got great press for Twitter as a platform, right Like,
Speaker 1: so many articles were spotlighting the way that she had
Speaker 1: really used the platform to create her brand. You know,
Speaker 1: she was like winning Twitter. And I feel like at
Speaker 1: the time, Twitter wasn't having as much of a moment
Speaker 1: as some of the other social media apps, and the
Speaker 1: content and discourse happening on Twitter was really able to
Speaker 1: breathe new life into a Internet staple that was kind
Speaker 1: of fading behind some of these other popular social media platforms.
Speaker 1: Completely agree, and I would also side note. I would
Speaker 1: also add that Twitter would not be what it is
Speaker 1: if it was not for the labor and creativity and
Speaker 1: time of black folks showing up on the platform, right,
Speaker 1: and so that is just Twitter. It was a huge it.
Speaker 1: I mean, if there wasn't black Twitter, and Twitter would
Speaker 1: be so boring a thousand percent. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that makes stories like
Speaker 1: Leslie so infuriating is that platforms owe a huge financial
Speaker 1: debt to black women and black folks showing up on
Speaker 1: their platform and making it someplace people want to be.
Speaker 1: And so then to turn around in not really take
Speaker 1: it seriously when those same voices are threatened and harassed
Speaker 1: and abused on their platform is a real problem for me.
Speaker 1: It really illustrates a disconnect that I think that tech
Speaker 1: leaders have where they are not actually making policies that
Speaker 1: keep the people that make their platforms great, They're actually
Speaker 1: not making policies that then allow for those people to
Speaker 1: show up safely on their platforms. And so Leslie Jones,
Speaker 1: when she was cast in the all female reboot of Ghostbusters,
Speaker 1: was the target of a really nasty harassment campaign by Milo,
Speaker 1: and it got so bad that eventually she left the platform.
Speaker 1: Um after she left, Jack Dorsey, the n CEO of Twitter,
Speaker 1: personally intervened. He kicked Milo off the platform and welcomed
Speaker 1: her back, which you know, that's great. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: that he did that. But I don't think that you
Speaker 1: should have to be a celebrity with those kinds of
Speaker 1: connections in order to get a platform like Twitter to
Speaker 1: take it seriously when you're being harassed in this way.
Speaker 1: As you might know, Milo got his start at bright
Speaker 1: Bart News, which was co founded by Steve Bannon. So
Speaker 1: watching all of this unfold, watching Steve Bannon, this person
Speaker 1: who empowered and emboldened Milo, who would go on to
Speaker 1: target Leslie Jones for this racist, sexist hate campaign online,
Speaker 1: you know, just for being a comedian who didn't do
Speaker 1: anything except for be a black woman taking up space
Speaker 1: on the internet. Watching the person who enabled this become
Speaker 1: a White House advisor to former President Trump deeply, deeply
Speaker 1: upset me. I would imagine that that kind of behavior
Speaker 1: would make you unfit for public life, not rewarded with
Speaker 1: a powerful, influential White House position. And so watching this,
Speaker 1: it was this wild convergence of culture and the Internet
Speaker 1: and social media and political power, and I thought, this
Speaker 1: means something. Certainly, this means something. And the thing was,
Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about it. You know, Milo got
Speaker 1: kicked off Twitter, Leslie Jones came back to Twitter, Steve
Speaker 1: Bannon went to the White House and then exited the
Speaker 1: White House, and everybody, as we do on the Internet,
Speaker 1: just kind of moved on like it was just a footnote.
Speaker 1: And I remember watching this interview time and suddenly this
Speaker 1: thing that I had always felt existing as a black
Speaker 1: woman on the Internet but could never really name or
Speaker 1: put my finger on, suddenly that came into much sharper focus,
Speaker 1: the harassment and abuse of women, specifically black women on
Speaker 1: the Internet. I saw it as being at the heart
Speaker 1: of our politics, our discourse, and being baked into the
Speaker 1: experience of our social media platforms. I realized, it's not
Speaker 1: above ug, It's a feature, and it's a feature that
Speaker 1: we don't even really talk openly about. So there are
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons I think that I could always
Speaker 1: feel this but can never really put a name on it.
Speaker 1: One is the nature of the Internet itself. You know,
Speaker 1: things move quickly on the Internet, and there's not exactly
Speaker 1: room or time for things like moratoriums or look backs
Speaker 1: to really take an accounting of what happened and why.
Speaker 1: When something happens online, we all just kind of move
Speaker 1: on and forget about it. It creates a situation where
Speaker 1: things can happen again and again and again and again.
Speaker 1: Two is just good old fashion racism and sexism. In
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, Malcolm X wrote, the most disrespected person
Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. The most unprotected person
Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. The most neglected person
Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. And the experiences that
Speaker 1: we have online as black women, and the way people
Speaker 1: respond to them or don't respond to them, really show
Speaker 1: was that Malcolm X knew what he was talking about
Speaker 1: way back when in nineteen four. I've spent most of
Speaker 1: my career doing research into the ways that marginalized people
Speaker 1: show up on the Internet and social media, and the
Speaker 1: research is super clear that black women are disproportionately targeted
Speaker 1: for things like online harassment, online abuse, threats, and disinformation online.
Speaker 1: You know, I take no pleasure in saying this, but
Speaker 1: it is the truth. Nobody, and by nobody, I mean
Speaker 1: nobody with power really cares about black women like that.
Speaker 1: When harm happens to black women, it is just overlooked.
Speaker 1: This is not just true on the internet, It's also
Speaker 1: true in the real world too, and it feeds into
Speaker 1: the problem because bad actors, people out there who want
Speaker 1: to cause harm to others, they know this. They know
Speaker 1: that they can target black women, test out and refine
Speaker 1: and perfect their tactics on black women, and that those
Speaker 1: women do speak up, nobody with power will really listen
Speaker 1: or take it seriously. We've seen this play out time
Speaker 1: and time again. For instance, at think most people who
Speaker 1: are online have heard of gamer Gate. So if they
Speaker 1: have you heard of this unfortunately? Yes? And if you
Speaker 1: have it, brave, we are jealous. Yes, if you haven't
Speaker 1: heard of gamer Gate, I want your life. I wish
Speaker 1: I could have a life that resembles yours. But I
Speaker 1: would say that most people on the Internet or who
Speaker 1: were on the Internet around the time that happened, are
Speaker 1: familiar with it. So for folks who don't know what
Speaker 1: that is, it was a time where mostly men online
Speaker 1: horribly harassed mostly women online under the guys of being
Speaker 1: big mad about ethics in gaming journalism, and it got
Speaker 1: lots of attention, lots of press. You know, I think
Speaker 1: most people can probably remember it, But how many of
Speaker 1: those same people know that the same folks responsible for
Speaker 1: gamer Gate, for using those exact same tactics on black
Speaker 1: women years before gamer Gate, women like age Vr Richards,
Speaker 1: who was targeted for racist haraspment online after she tweeted
Speaker 1: about not really liking a crass joke that she overheard
Speaker 1: about dongles while she was at a work event. She
Speaker 1: was horribly harassed and it was something that I think
Speaker 1: that people might not even remember. You know. I did
Speaker 1: an interview with this researcher, Sharine Mitchell, and during our interview,
Speaker 1: she was, like, most people know about gamer Gate, nobody
Speaker 1: talks about dongle gay. Here's a bit of my conversation
Speaker 1: with researcher Sharine Mitchell. So I want to talk a bit.
Speaker 1: You mentioned this like preparing women and girls for this
Speaker 1: moment that we're in. Now. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: that moment, particularly as it pertains to things like disinformation.
Speaker 1: How are you seeing disinformation impact women online, specifically black
Speaker 1: women and women of color. How are you seeing a
Speaker 1: play out? Yes? Absolutely, you and I know about women
Speaker 1: like Shafika Hussin and Anissa Crockett who basically helped to identify,
Speaker 1: you know, fake accounts pretending to be black women. Now,
Speaker 1: I was also looking at that as well as looking
Speaker 1: at dongle Gate, and so I want to make sure
Speaker 1: I mark donagle Gate here because when people started worrying
Speaker 1: about on harassment, they started worrying about it when it
Speaker 1: was gamer Gate, and the media got hold of it
Speaker 1: before gamer Gate was dongle Gay. So I followed the
Speaker 1: whole storyline about this black woman m who I happened
Speaker 1: to know, who was speaking up about sexism in the
Speaker 1: tech industry, and she had coordinated attacks against her. That
Speaker 1: was the first moment after our first survey that I
Speaker 1: realized that not only would coordinate attacks happen, but people
Speaker 1: would defend those who are attacking her, including people who
Speaker 1: write books about her and basically say that she was
Speaker 1: the most egregious in her behavior, that calling out sexism
Speaker 1: and racism was egregious, And I was like, uncle gay,
Speaker 1: what was she talking about? And even me, as somebody
Speaker 1: who is like pretty online, I had forgotten that I
Speaker 1: had witnessed that go down, and I didn't even contextualize
Speaker 1: it within a larger context of the conversation of online harassment.
Speaker 1: I had completely compartmentalized it. And so I think it
Speaker 1: really shows that even people who spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time on the Internet or talk about the Internet might
Speaker 1: not always be able to see what's happening when the targets,
Speaker 1: the people at the center of these situations are black women.
Speaker 1: I mean, even when you pitched the show to the
Speaker 1: Cool Zone team, doncle gate was one of the first
Speaker 1: topic ideas you had, and I was like, oh, doncle gate,
Speaker 1: And I think maybe one other person on our team
Speaker 1: knew what that was. And I would say that, you know,
Speaker 1: the Cool Zone media team are are people who are
Speaker 1: highly online and and and should know about this, and
Speaker 1: yet it's just another thing that we've overlooked in this
Speaker 1: systemic issue exactly. And I think it feeds into how
Speaker 1: bad the issue is because you know, tech reporters and
Speaker 1: folks at places like Wired, I really like a lot
Speaker 1: of their journalism. But frankly, a lot of those, a
Speaker 1: lot of the people making content about the Internet just
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the range to really get into the
Speaker 1: nitty gritty of the intersection of race and gender and
Speaker 1: identity that you would need to really fully account for
Speaker 1: what happened in these stories. I just think people don't
Speaker 1: have the range. If you've an incredibly white newsroom or
Speaker 1: an incredibly white team, it might be difficult to really
Speaker 1: get into the intersections and the complexities of how these
Speaker 1: issues actually do play out, and so they go overlooked
Speaker 1: and we're not really able to learn from them, or
Speaker 1: prepare for them, or take much away from them. Another
Speaker 1: good example would be Shafika Hudson, who in actually reported
Speaker 1: and called out bad actors using fake accounts to impersonate
Speaker 1: black women to destabilize Internet communities. The women who were
Speaker 1: at the heart of that being targeted, they spoke up,
Speaker 1: they reported these things to Twitter, and they were basically ignored.
Speaker 1: So why didn't I get the same amount of coverage
Speaker 1: or recognition as something like gamer Gate? And if it had,
Speaker 1: maybe somebody with power might have listened and taken it seriously.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe things would be different now, you know,
Speaker 1: For one, gamer Gate might have gone down a little
Speaker 1: bit differently. Or consider the fact that six years after
Speaker 1: Shafika Hudson was reporting people impersonating black folks on Twitter
Speaker 1: to cause chaos, white supremacist groups used that very same
Speaker 1: tactic during the racial justice uprisings of to make it
Speaker 1: seem as though black activists were calling for people to
Speaker 1: loot homes and cause violence on the street. Twitter confirmed this.
Speaker 1: Twitter confirmed that white supremacist groups were impersonating black people
Speaker 1: on Twitter. They did not, though, explain why, if they
Speaker 1: knew this was a tactic years earlier that was being
Speaker 1: used to destabilize their platforms, why they did fuck all
Speaker 1: to prevent it and did nothing to prevent it from
Speaker 1: happening at a larger scale down the line and zooming
Speaker 1: out even further. These tactics went on to be the
Speaker 1: very same tactics that bad actors used to try to
Speaker 1: destabilize our elections and democracy. A Senate inquiry confirmed in
Speaker 1: twenty nine that that same tactic and personating black people
Speaker 1: on social media was used by Russian assets in an
Speaker 1: attempt to spread distrust during the election, posing as Black
Speaker 1: Lives Matter activists or like black groups on social media accounts.
Speaker 1: Online bad actors tried to inflame anger around things like
Speaker 1: police brutality in the lead up to the election, and
Speaker 1: the inquiry found that no group was targeted more than
Speaker 1: black folks online, and they were trying to use drumming
Speaker 1: up all of this this chaos and anger as a
Speaker 1: means of either getting black folks to vote for Donald
Speaker 1: Trump or did to stay home on election Day And again,
Speaker 1: had someone with power actually listened when these black women
Speaker 1: years prior we're speaking up about what they experienced, maybe
Speaker 1: things would be different, but they were ignored. I think
Speaker 1: that not listening to Black women when we speak up
Speaker 1: about our experiences online has big consequences, not just for
Speaker 1: the women who are targeted, but for all of us,
Speaker 1: because when usoom out even further, we're seeing tried and
Speaker 1: true tactics of online harassment become an animating feature in
Speaker 1: our political landscape and discourse. And what's worse, it's becoming normalized.
Speaker 1: You know, Black women are sometimes called the canaries and
Speaker 1: the coal mine for online harms. First it happens to us,
Speaker 1: and then it happens to everyone, and bad actors use
Speaker 1: the same harassment tactics that they were able to perfect
Speaker 1: on Black women on others. And I would argue that
Speaker 1: have people with power, you know, leadership at tech companies,
Speaker 1: policymakers and elected officials. Had they actually listened when black
Speaker 1: women were being targeted by this kind of thing and
Speaker 1: they spoke up about what they were experiencing, we might
Speaker 1: not be in our current political situation, which frankly I
Speaker 1: can only describe as a health scape. There. I mean
Speaker 1: think about it. The Internet has been completely weaponized. It's
Speaker 1: near impossible to have any kind of meaningful discourse about
Speaker 1: any kind of real topic on our largest communication platforms
Speaker 1: because the leaders who run those platforms have built them
Speaker 1: to incentivize and amplify lies, garbage, and grits were more
Speaker 1: polarized than ever, and the grifters are basically running the show.
Speaker 1: And the reason I want to talk about this right
Speaker 1: now is that we're going into a midterm election where
Speaker 1: we're seeing historic numbers of women and women of color
Speaker 1: running for local office. But the sad reality is at
Speaker 1: this point, serving your community by running for office also
Speaker 1: means opening you and your family up to being attacked
Speaker 1: and harassed online in ways that male candidates just do
Speaker 1: not have to worry about. I mean women like Congresswoman
Speaker 1: Jaia Paul, where a man went from sending her angry,
Speaker 1: threatening emails to showing up outside of her house with
Speaker 1: a gun. Because we know these threats may start online,
Speaker 1: but they do not always stay online. This climate creates
Speaker 1: a barrier for women, whether they're running for office or
Speaker 1: serving their communities by working as election workers or poll workers.
Speaker 1: We have a national shortage of election workers heading into
Speaker 1: an election, because who would want to do any of
Speaker 1: that if it means they're opening themselves and their family
Speaker 1: up to threats, intimidation and harassment. You know, if you
Speaker 1: watch the January six hearing, you probably remember the way
Speaker 1: that two black poll workers, Shay and Ruby Freemen, were
Speaker 1: personally attacked by Trump and Rudy Giuliani, who baselessly, publicly
Speaker 1: and repeatedly accused these women of tampering with votes in
Speaker 1: the election, until angry people descended on the home of
Speaker 1: their elderly grandmother and they had to flee for their
Speaker 1: own safety. And these are just everyday women. It's not
Speaker 1: like they had a security detail. The whole point is
Speaker 1: to silence women and to keep us from participating in
Speaker 1: civic and public life, to create such a high cost
Speaker 1: to doing so that it just isn't worth it. And
Speaker 1: we haven't really had a real examination of how the
Speaker 1: harassment of marginalized people online is a big part of
Speaker 1: how we got here. So why not do that now.
Speaker 1: Let's not just move on from it, as I know
Speaker 1: that we're so apt to do on the Internet. Let's
Speaker 1: examine it so we can learn from it. So on
Speaker 1: this season of Internet hate Machine we'll be exploring how
Speaker 1: online violence and harassment has led us to this political
Speaker 1: and social moment that we're in, and don't worry, we'll
Speaker 1: also be diving into what can be done about it.
Speaker 1: And I know it's gonna be a wild ride, but
Speaker 1: I hope that all of y'all are down to take
Speaker 1: this ride with me. Internet Hate Machine is a production
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. More podcasts from cool Zone Media,
Speaker 1: check out our website cool zone media dot com, or
Speaker 1: find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.