1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: My name is bridget Todd, and I am here with 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: my producer, Sophie Hey bridget Hey listeners, so you might 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: already know me from my podcast There are No Girls 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: on the Internet, And as you can probably tell from 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: that title, I make podcasts about the Internet, specifically how 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: people who are traditionally marginalized, so women, black folks, queer folks, 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: trans folks, sex workers, low income folks and the like, 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: have shaped what it means to be on the Internet. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: And I do that because I know that making sure 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: the contributions of these communities are in the spotlight takes intention. 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: It's already really easy for these communities and their voices 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: to be overlooked unless we make a real point to 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: do so. So it's already hard enough to make sure 14 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: the experiences of marginalized people are not overlooked. But when 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: you add in the ephemeral nature of the Internet, it 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: becomes even less likely that these voices and their contributions 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: and experiences will be chronicled. The Internet moves quickly, tweets 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: are scrubbed, websites come down. Who will remember what happens 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: online if we don't do the work of archiving it 20 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: and building monuments to it. So that's what I've been doing, 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: and I've gotten to do a lot of that work 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: about some of the ways that brilliant, marginalized people have 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: been using the Internet to make culture and art and movements, 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: and it has been so inspiring. But I am sad 25 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: to say that as true as it is that traditionally 26 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: marginalized people are doing really cool ship online, it is 27 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: also true that those same people are the ones who 28 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: are being targeted online in really scary and infuriating ways. 29 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: And when it happens, it can feel like it just 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: goes overlooked. You know, we don't really get the opportunity 31 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: to learn from it or take anything away from it, 32 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and as the Internet does, everyone just kind of moves on. 33 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: And you know what, I don't like that. So on 34 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: this podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to right that wrong. 35 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: We'll be telling the stories of women who were harassed online, 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: how it happened, why it happened, and what it all 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: means for the rest of us, because I think there 38 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: is this real misconception about online harassment that it is individual. 39 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: You know, when you see someone being harassed on the internet, 40 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: people think, wow, I wonder what she did to be 41 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: deserving of that kind of treatment, or they might think 42 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: I am glad I am not her. But the truth is, 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: harassment online isn't just individual. It's systemic, and it's institutional, 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: and even if we specifically are not the ones on 45 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the receiving end of it, it still has really big 46 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: implications for all of us. The first time that I 47 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: really saw this play out on build time was with 48 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: former Saturday Night Live comedian Leslie Jones, and her story, 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: which is one of the stories that we will talk 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: about in depth this season, is one that really opened 51 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: my eyes. So, Sophie, do you remember Leslie Jones? Do 52 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: you know what happened with her? Yeah? Leslie jen is 53 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: one of the best performers on SNL and all time 54 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: great really just one of the funniest people ever who 55 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: was kind of at the time, somebody who seemed to 56 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: really have Twitter comedy down and was very much loved 57 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: universally get absolutely harassed by the Internet, specifically by one 58 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: guy who I recall saying it stuck with me, saying 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: that trolling was important and that with like no remorse 60 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: for the the things that he did, and I'm sure 61 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: it continues to do to two people to this day, 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: I want to tell me more, Well, absolutely, you are 63 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: entirely correct. So in all of my research on the 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: way that online harassment works, I've seen time and time 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: again that Milo Napolis, former tech editor at right bart 66 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: News and right Wing ship Head, really ushered in that 67 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: wave of trolling being seen as a form of activism 68 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: in and of itself. Milo Unapolis represents the tip of 69 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: the iceberg in a rising tide of hate and abuse 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: in social media when he clearly sees as a noble 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: appropriate trolling is very important. Trolling is absolutely essential. America 72 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: needs more trolling because trolls so the the only people who 73 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: tell the truth these days. Many joined him on this crusade. Mr. 74 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: Trolling is important in himself my cool and so he 75 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: really ushered that in as like a vibe where people 76 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: who were trolling in this way saw it as a 77 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: form of activism and saw it as a way to 78 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: reclaim and build political and social power online and cultural 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: power online. And so Leslie Jones, I completely agree with you. 80 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: She was all time great on Saturday Night Live, and 81 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: she was one of those sort of early celebrities who 82 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: was good at Twitter. You know that that brand of celebrity. 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: She was known for live tweeting things like the Olympics 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: or other big events, and everyone loved her right like 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: she was be loved on Twitter. Her tweets live tweeting 86 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: events would be you know, chronicled in those BuzzFeed list 87 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: of calls Michael thirty of Leslie Jones best tweets abou 88 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: the Olympics, things like that. It was very of a 89 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: of an era, I guess I'll put it that way. 90 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: And so her tweeting, her use of the platform Twitter 91 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: really got great press for Twitter as a platform, right Like, 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: so many articles were spotlighting the way that she had 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: really used the platform to create her brand. You know, 94 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: she was like winning Twitter. And I feel like at 95 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: the time, Twitter wasn't having as much of a moment 96 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: as some of the other social media apps, and the 97 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: content and discourse happening on Twitter was really able to 98 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: breathe new life into a Internet staple that was kind 99 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: of fading behind some of these other popular social media platforms. 100 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: Completely agree, and I would also side note. I would 101 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: also add that Twitter would not be what it is 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: if it was not for the labor and creativity and 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: time of black folks showing up on the platform, right, 104 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: and so that is just Twitter. It was a huge it. 105 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if there wasn't black Twitter, and Twitter would 106 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: be so boring a thousand percent. And you know, I 107 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that makes stories like 108 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Leslie so infuriating is that platforms owe a huge financial 109 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: debt to black women and black folks showing up on 110 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: their platform and making it someplace people want to be. 111 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: And so then to turn around in not really take 112 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: it seriously when those same voices are threatened and harassed 113 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: and abused on their platform is a real problem for me. 114 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: It really illustrates a disconnect that I think that tech 115 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: leaders have where they are not actually making policies that 116 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: keep the people that make their platforms great, They're actually 117 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: not making policies that then allow for those people to 118 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: show up safely on their platforms. And so Leslie Jones, 119 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: when she was cast in the all female reboot of Ghostbusters, 120 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: was the target of a really nasty harassment campaign by Milo, 121 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: and it got so bad that eventually she left the platform. 122 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: Um after she left, Jack Dorsey, the n CEO of Twitter, 123 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: personally intervened. He kicked Milo off the platform and welcomed 124 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: her back, which you know, that's great. I'm glad that 125 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: that he did that. But I don't think that you 126 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: should have to be a celebrity with those kinds of 127 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: connections in order to get a platform like Twitter to 128 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: take it seriously when you're being harassed in this way. 129 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: As you might know, Milo got his start at bright 130 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: Bart News, which was co founded by Steve Bannon. So 131 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: watching all of this unfold, watching Steve Bannon, this person 132 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: who empowered and emboldened Milo, who would go on to 133 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: target Leslie Jones for this racist, sexist hate campaign online, 134 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, just for being a comedian who didn't do 135 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: anything except for be a black woman taking up space 136 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: on the internet. Watching the person who enabled this become 137 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: a White House advisor to former President Trump deeply, deeply 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: upset me. I would imagine that that kind of behavior 139 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: would make you unfit for public life, not rewarded with 140 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: a powerful, influential White House position. And so watching this, 141 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: it was this wild convergence of culture and the Internet 142 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: and social media and political power, and I thought, this 143 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: means something. Certainly, this means something. And the thing was, 144 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about it. You know, Milo got 145 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: kicked off Twitter, Leslie Jones came back to Twitter, Steve 146 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: Bannon went to the White House and then exited the 147 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: White House, and everybody, as we do on the Internet, 148 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: just kind of moved on like it was just a footnote. 149 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: And I remember watching this interview time and suddenly this 150 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: thing that I had always felt existing as a black 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: woman on the Internet but could never really name or 152 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: put my finger on, suddenly that came into much sharper focus, 153 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: the harassment and abuse of women, specifically black women on 154 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: the Internet. I saw it as being at the heart 155 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: of our politics, our discourse, and being baked into the 156 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: experience of our social media platforms. I realized, it's not 157 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: above ug, It's a feature, and it's a feature that 158 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: we don't even really talk openly about. So there are 159 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: a couple of reasons I think that I could always 160 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: feel this but can never really put a name on it. 161 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: One is the nature of the Internet itself. You know, 162 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: things move quickly on the Internet, and there's not exactly 163 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: room or time for things like moratoriums or look backs 164 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: to really take an accounting of what happened and why. 165 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: When something happens online, we all just kind of move 166 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: on and forget about it. It creates a situation where 167 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: things can happen again and again and again and again. 168 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: Two is just good old fashion racism and sexism. In 169 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, Malcolm X wrote, the most disrespected person 170 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. The most unprotected person 171 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. The most neglected person 172 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: in America is the black woman. And the experiences that 173 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: we have online as black women, and the way people 174 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: respond to them or don't respond to them, really show 175 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: was that Malcolm X knew what he was talking about 176 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: way back when in nineteen four. I've spent most of 177 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: my career doing research into the ways that marginalized people 178 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: show up on the Internet and social media, and the 179 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: research is super clear that black women are disproportionately targeted 180 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: for things like online harassment, online abuse, threats, and disinformation online. 181 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: You know, I take no pleasure in saying this, but 182 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: it is the truth. Nobody, and by nobody, I mean 183 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: nobody with power really cares about black women like that. 184 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: When harm happens to black women, it is just overlooked. 185 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: This is not just true on the internet, It's also 186 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: true in the real world too, and it feeds into 187 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: the problem because bad actors, people out there who want 188 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: to cause harm to others, they know this. They know 189 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: that they can target black women, test out and refine 190 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: and perfect their tactics on black women, and that those 191 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: women do speak up, nobody with power will really listen 192 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: or take it seriously. We've seen this play out time 193 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: and time again. For instance, at think most people who 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: are online have heard of gamer Gate. So if they 195 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: have you heard of this unfortunately? Yes? And if you 196 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: have it, brave, we are jealous. Yes, if you haven't 197 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: heard of gamer Gate, I want your life. I wish 198 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: I could have a life that resembles yours. But I 199 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: would say that most people on the Internet or who 200 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: were on the Internet around the time that happened, are 201 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: familiar with it. So for folks who don't know what 202 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: that is, it was a time where mostly men online 203 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: horribly harassed mostly women online under the guys of being 204 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: big mad about ethics in gaming journalism, and it got 205 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: lots of attention, lots of press. You know, I think 206 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: most people can probably remember it, But how many of 207 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: those same people know that the same folks responsible for 208 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: gamer Gate, for using those exact same tactics on black 209 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: women years before gamer Gate, women like age Vr Richards, 210 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: who was targeted for racist haraspment online after she tweeted 211 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: about not really liking a crass joke that she overheard 212 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: about dongles while she was at a work event. She 213 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: was horribly harassed and it was something that I think 214 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: that people might not even remember. You know. I did 215 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: an interview with this researcher, Sharine Mitchell, and during our interview, 216 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: she was, like, most people know about gamer Gate, nobody 217 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: talks about dongle gay. Here's a bit of my conversation 218 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: with researcher Sharine Mitchell. So I want to talk a bit. 219 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: You mentioned this like preparing women and girls for this 220 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: moment that we're in. Now. I want to talk about 221 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: that moment, particularly as it pertains to things like disinformation. 222 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: How are you seeing disinformation impact women online, specifically black 223 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: women and women of color. How are you seeing a 224 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: play out? Yes? Absolutely, you and I know about women 225 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: like Shafika Hussin and Anissa Crockett who basically helped to identify, 226 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, fake accounts pretending to be black women. Now, 227 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: I was also looking at that as well as looking 228 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: at dongle Gate, and so I want to make sure 229 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: I mark donagle Gate here because when people started worrying 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: about on harassment, they started worrying about it when it 231 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: was gamer Gate, and the media got hold of it 232 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: before gamer Gate was dongle Gay. So I followed the 233 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: whole storyline about this black woman m who I happened 234 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: to know, who was speaking up about sexism in the 235 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: tech industry, and she had coordinated attacks against her. That 236 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: was the first moment after our first survey that I 237 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: realized that not only would coordinate attacks happen, but people 238 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: would defend those who are attacking her, including people who 239 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: write books about her and basically say that she was 240 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: the most egregious in her behavior, that calling out sexism 241 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: and racism was egregious, And I was like, uncle gay, 242 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: what was she talking about? And even me, as somebody 243 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: who is like pretty online, I had forgotten that I 244 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: had witnessed that go down, and I didn't even contextualize 245 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: it within a larger context of the conversation of online harassment. 246 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: I had completely compartmentalized it. And so I think it 247 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: really shows that even people who spend a lot of 248 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: time on the Internet or talk about the Internet might 249 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: not always be able to see what's happening when the targets, 250 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the people at the center of these situations are black women. 251 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, even when you pitched the show to the 252 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: Cool Zone team, doncle gate was one of the first 253 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: topic ideas you had, and I was like, oh, doncle gate, 254 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: And I think maybe one other person on our team 255 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: knew what that was. And I would say that, you know, 256 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: the Cool Zone media team are are people who are 257 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: highly online and and and should know about this, and 258 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: yet it's just another thing that we've overlooked in this 259 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: systemic issue exactly. And I think it feeds into how 260 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: bad the issue is because you know, tech reporters and 261 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: folks at places like Wired, I really like a lot 262 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: of their journalism. But frankly, a lot of those, a 263 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: lot of the people making content about the Internet just 264 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the range to really get into the 265 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: nitty gritty of the intersection of race and gender and 266 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: identity that you would need to really fully account for 267 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: what happened in these stories. I just think people don't 268 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: have the range. If you've an incredibly white newsroom or 269 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: an incredibly white team, it might be difficult to really 270 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: get into the intersections and the complexities of how these 271 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: issues actually do play out, and so they go overlooked 272 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: and we're not really able to learn from them, or 273 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: prepare for them, or take much away from them. Another 274 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: good example would be Shafika Hudson, who in actually reported 275 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,239 Speaker 1: and called out bad actors using fake accounts to impersonate 276 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: black women to destabilize Internet communities. The women who were 277 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: at the heart of that being targeted, they spoke up, 278 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: they reported these things to Twitter, and they were basically ignored. 279 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: So why didn't I get the same amount of coverage 280 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: or recognition as something like gamer Gate? And if it had, 281 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: maybe somebody with power might have listened and taken it seriously. 282 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: And I think maybe things would be different now, you know, 283 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: For one, gamer Gate might have gone down a little 284 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: bit differently. Or consider the fact that six years after 285 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: Shafika Hudson was reporting people impersonating black folks on Twitter 286 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: to cause chaos, white supremacist groups used that very same 287 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: tactic during the racial justice uprisings of to make it 288 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: seem as though black activists were calling for people to 289 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: loot homes and cause violence on the street. Twitter confirmed this. 290 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: Twitter confirmed that white supremacist groups were impersonating black people 291 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter. They did not, though, explain why, if they 292 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: knew this was a tactic years earlier that was being 293 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: used to destabilize their platforms, why they did fuck all 294 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: to prevent it and did nothing to prevent it from 295 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: happening at a larger scale down the line and zooming 296 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: out even further. These tactics went on to be the 297 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: very same tactics that bad actors used to try to 298 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: destabilize our elections and democracy. A Senate inquiry confirmed in 299 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: twenty nine that that same tactic and personating black people 300 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: on social media was used by Russian assets in an 301 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: attempt to spread distrust during the election, posing as Black 302 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: Lives Matter activists or like black groups on social media accounts. 303 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: Online bad actors tried to inflame anger around things like 304 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: police brutality in the lead up to the election, and 305 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: the inquiry found that no group was targeted more than 306 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: black folks online, and they were trying to use drumming 307 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: up all of this this chaos and anger as a 308 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: means of either getting black folks to vote for Donald 309 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: Trump or did to stay home on election Day And again, 310 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: had someone with power actually listened when these black women 311 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: years prior we're speaking up about what they experienced, maybe 312 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: things would be different, but they were ignored. I think 313 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: that not listening to Black women when we speak up 314 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: about our experiences online has big consequences, not just for 315 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: the women who are targeted, but for all of us, 316 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: because when usoom out even further, we're seeing tried and 317 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: true tactics of online harassment become an animating feature in 318 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: our political landscape and discourse. And what's worse, it's becoming normalized. 319 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: You know, Black women are sometimes called the canaries and 320 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the coal mine for online harms. First it happens to us, 321 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: and then it happens to everyone, and bad actors use 322 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: the same harassment tactics that they were able to perfect 323 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: on Black women on others. And I would argue that 324 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: have people with power, you know, leadership at tech companies, 325 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: policymakers and elected officials. Had they actually listened when black 326 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: women were being targeted by this kind of thing and 327 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: they spoke up about what they were experiencing, we might 328 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: not be in our current political situation, which frankly I 329 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: can only describe as a health scape. There. I mean 330 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: think about it. The Internet has been completely weaponized. It's 331 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: near impossible to have any kind of meaningful discourse about 332 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: any kind of real topic on our largest communication platforms 333 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: because the leaders who run those platforms have built them 334 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: to incentivize and amplify lies, garbage, and grits were more 335 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: polarized than ever, and the grifters are basically running the show. 336 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: And the reason I want to talk about this right 337 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: now is that we're going into a midterm election where 338 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing historic numbers of women and women of color 339 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: running for local office. But the sad reality is at 340 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: this point, serving your community by running for office also 341 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: means opening you and your family up to being attacked 342 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: and harassed online in ways that male candidates just do 343 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: not have to worry about. I mean women like Congresswoman 344 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: Jaia Paul, where a man went from sending her angry, 345 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: threatening emails to showing up outside of her house with 346 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: a gun. Because we know these threats may start online, 347 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: but they do not always stay online. This climate creates 348 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: a barrier for women, whether they're running for office or 349 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: serving their communities by working as election workers or poll workers. 350 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: We have a national shortage of election workers heading into 351 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: an election, because who would want to do any of 352 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: that if it means they're opening themselves and their family 353 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: up to threats, intimidation and harassment. You know, if you 354 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: watch the January six hearing, you probably remember the way 355 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: that two black poll workers, Shay and Ruby Freemen, were 356 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: personally attacked by Trump and Rudy Giuliani, who baselessly, publicly 357 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: and repeatedly accused these women of tampering with votes in 358 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: the election, until angry people descended on the home of 359 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: their elderly grandmother and they had to flee for their 360 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: own safety. And these are just everyday women. It's not 361 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: like they had a security detail. The whole point is 362 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: to silence women and to keep us from participating in 363 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: civic and public life, to create such a high cost 364 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: to doing so that it just isn't worth it. And 365 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: we haven't really had a real examination of how the 366 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: harassment of marginalized people online is a big part of 367 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: how we got here. So why not do that now. 368 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: Let's not just move on from it, as I know 369 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: that we're so apt to do on the Internet. Let's 370 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: examine it so we can learn from it. So on 371 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: this season of Internet hate Machine we'll be exploring how 372 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: online violence and harassment has led us to this political 373 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: and social moment that we're in, and don't worry, we'll 374 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: also be diving into what can be done about it. 375 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: And I know it's gonna be a wild ride, but 376 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: I hope that all of y'all are down to take 377 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: this ride with me. Internet Hate Machine is a production 378 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. More podcasts from cool Zone Media, 379 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: check out our website cool zone media dot com, or 380 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 381 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.