1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're going into 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 2: the vault for an older episode of the show. This 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: one is part one of our series on the cauldron. 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: Rather mundane object, but I recall we dug up a 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: lot of interesting threads and tangents on this. So this 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: episode originally published May twenty fourth, twenty twenty two. Let's 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: let's jump right in and land with the splash. 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: Round about the cauldron. Go in the poisoned in trails. 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: Throw toad that under cold stone days and nights has 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: thirty one sweltered venom sleeping got boiled. Now first in 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: the charmed pot, double double toil and traple, fire burn 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: and cauldron bubble. 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: Feel it of a finny snake. 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 4: In the cauldron, boil and bake, I have newt and 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 4: toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog, adders, 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: fork and blind worms, sting lizard's leg, And how let's 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 4: wing for a charm of powerful trouble like a hell 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 4: broth boil and bubble, double double toil and trouble, fireburn 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 4: and cauldron Baba Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind 22 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 4: production of iHeartRadio. 23 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 24 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And rob why did you ask 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: me to read from Macbeth in a witchy voice? What 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: is that going to lead into? 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Well, of course we're going to be talking about cauldrons, 29 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: and certainly in Western traditions, I feel like one of 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: the first places that one's mind goes is to go 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: to act for a scene one of William Shakespeare's Macbeth. 32 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: This is the scene that we just read from Round 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: about the Cauldron go It's and it does bring together 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: a number of the ideas of the cauldron that will 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: be discussed in these episodes. And of course it's just 36 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: just a fabulous scene in general, with witches doing their 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: their witchy best to make some sort of horrific potion. 38 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 3: Now, obviously you have had cauldrons on the brain. What 39 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: sent you down this path? How did we end up here? 40 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: You know, I don't remember exactly. It was something that 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 3: came up in previous research for another episode. I started 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 3: noticing the cauldron and I was like, oh, well, there's 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 3: a lot here we should consider coming back to it, 44 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 3: and indeed there is quite a lot, because on one 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 3: hand you have just the history of mundane but fascinating 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: cooking technology, and then you have the different sacred and 47 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: supernatural directions. This goes in as in as well. Certainly 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 3: there's the Asian tradition, which we'll probably get to first, 49 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: but then there's this rich Western tradition going back to 50 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 3: Celtic traditions and so forth. And some of these are 51 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: perhaps more connected with the Cauldron of Macbeth, and we'll 52 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: probably discuss that in a subsequent episode. But it is 53 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 3: you need to task usselves, like what do we think 54 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: of when we think of cauldron. I know I instantly think, 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: of course, of this scene from Macbeth, but I also 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: instantly think back to a trio of early eighties films. 57 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 3: I think of Beast Master, I think of Conan the Barbarian, 58 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: and I also think of those both from nineteen eighty two, 59 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: but I also think of nineteen eighty one's Clash of 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: the Titans. All three of these have some sort of 61 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: a cannibal stew going on, some sort of a big 62 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: broth that it is revealed, has human parts within it. 63 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: Now in the Clash of the Titans. There's an interesting 64 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 3: connection because the cauldron is being tended by three Crones, 65 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: the gree Sisters, who are part of the story of 66 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 3: Perseus and Medusa, and it's hard not to notice the 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: similarities with the Three Witch Sisters and Macbeth there. 68 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's my understanding there is a connection here. These 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: are essentially the ancient predecessors of Macbeth's which is now. 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: As for the cannibal Stoo's, yeah, I think it's a 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: case where I'm just guessing here. We're based on the timeline. 72 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: I think they invoked it and Clash of the Titans, 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: and then either overtly or not, the makers of Beast 74 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: Master and Conan were like, oh, we need to get 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: in on that. That's a great image. Get a cannibal 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: stew in here. 77 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: But if that's the case, why didn't Conan have a 78 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: pet mechanical owl. 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: I know, I know it's a flaw. It's often pointed 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: out as a flaw of that film. 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: Conan needs a robot. 82 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: I think another film that people might think of would 83 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: be the nineteen eighty five Disney film The Black Cauldron, 84 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: based on the work of Lloyd Alexander and this of 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: course drew from Welsh mythology, and we'll get into some 86 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: of that in subsequent episodes. But I asked my ten 87 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: year old son what he thought about when I mentioned 88 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: the word cauldron. He has not seen well, he's seen 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: Clash of the Titans and loves it, but he hasn't 90 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: seen the other two films. When I ask him, he said, well, 91 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: I think of soup, and I think of Harry Potter, 92 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: the latter of which of course is also linked to 93 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: Western traditions of witches and so forth. And I think 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: the Potter books and films are probably a key modern 95 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: pop culture reference regarding cauldron's You. 96 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 3: Know, I started thinking about something with this word, but 97 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: then started doubting myself. I'll see what you think about this, 98 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,119 Speaker 3: So I don't know if there's already an established term 99 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: for this type of phenomenon. But I was thinking about 100 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 3: how cauldron is something you might call like a charged 101 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: variant of a concept, a word that has extremely mundane 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: literal synonyms, like literally a cauldron is just a large 103 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: pot or a big pot. I think, perhaps one that 104 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: is especially used over an open flame, more so than 105 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 3: in like an indoor cook top setting and yet the 106 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: word suggests a world of associations that it's literal synonyms 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: do not. Like in English, large pot does not have 108 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 3: any special magic swirling about it, but cauldron does. Anytime 109 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 3: you say the word cauldron, it suggests, you know, this 110 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 3: is trollish sorcery, something is going on. But then again, 111 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: maybe it's not that remarkable because I guess you can 112 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 3: think of other things associated with magic, Like I think 113 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: the word wand literally just means like a rod or 114 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 3: a stick, but in modern English it is pretty much 115 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: always associated with magic. 116 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting to think about this because 117 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: with the cauldron, you could sort of go cauldron, pot, 118 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: crock pot, instant pot, and the closer you get to instant, Like, 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: the instant pot does not have really any nefarious or 120 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: magical connotations. It's thoroughly modern, nothing to fear. And I 121 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: feel like though, the further back through the terminology you go, yes, 122 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: the stranger things get because even pot is more intimidating 123 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: than crockpot. 124 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 3: Well, I wonder if there's generally a thing in languages 125 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 3: where there's like an archaic synonym for a word that 126 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 3: loses its mundane associations like one one synonym maintains the 127 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: mundanity through the ages, and the other one only retains 128 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: usage in magically charged scenarios. 129 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that's the case. I'm not 130 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: sure if we're going to end up keeping the third 131 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: witch's bit from the opening here, but there is a 132 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: line in that where the where the witch rhymes children 133 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: with cauldron, children being this old term for like entrails. 134 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: But I didn't do a deep dive into this terminology, 135 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: if it's my understanding like that that was already an 136 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: archaic term when Shakespeare used it, or you know, and 137 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: or a more specified term. But you do what you 138 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: have to do when you need to rhyme something with cauldron. 139 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, what else fits in there? Squadron? Not really? 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean you can make it work wire which is 141 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: going to be talking about squadrons? 142 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: How about how about how about Godson cauldron? 143 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: That's kind of a maybe maybe I think you got to. 144 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: Put some spin on the pronunciation though that's like an 145 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: M and M style style. 146 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to be a pro to make that work. 147 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: So all in all, there is a rich tradition of 148 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: cauldrons overflowing with powers of death, creation, domination, torment, and divination. 149 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: But Before we get into all of this properly, we 150 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: have to back up. We have to really talk about 151 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: the mundane world of cauldrons as well, and so we're 152 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: gonna have to talk about, you know, the origins of 153 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: soup technology, which I've been super excited about all weekend, 154 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: and I think my family is sick of hearing about it. 155 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 3: You've been talking about soup a lot. Did you make 156 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 3: soup this. 157 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: No, it's too hot for soup, that's the thing. Oh yeah, 158 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: I mean we could have made a spot show, I guess, 159 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: but but no, I haven't been having any soup. But 160 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: just reading about the traditions of soup, it's made me 161 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: respected all the more. I need a cold snap so 162 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: I can get back into it. So first and foremost, 163 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: as we've been discussing, a cauldron is simply a large 164 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: pot used to boil liquid over a fire. So in function, 165 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: it's really no different from any pot you have in 166 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: your kitchen. It's just generally considered a bigger pot. Now, 167 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: long before the advent of metal pots, we had bowls. 168 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: We had pots of pottery, as well as presumably ones 169 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: made of wood and leather, though such artifacts don't always 170 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: stand the test of time here as well. But one 171 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: question that's interesting to get into is, Okay, well, we 172 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: were talking about cauldrons, we're inevitably talking about about soups 173 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: in many cases. But do you need a pot, or 174 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: you need a metal pot, or do you need a 175 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: pot at all in order to make soup? I would 176 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: have thought so, there was a time where I would 177 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: have thought so as well, But it turns out it's 178 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: not necessary because a hole in the ground is nature's cauldron, 179 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: and this is something that can be made water tight 180 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: via the use of animal hides, and then one may 181 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: fill this hole with water and of course food your 182 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: various ingredients, which will of course eventually come together in 183 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: a hot soup. But where's the heat going to come from? 184 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 3: Good question, Yeah, because you can't put a fire under 185 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: it if it's a hole in the ground and then 186 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 3: a hide. 187 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there might be specialized situations where 188 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: you could depend on geothermal heat, but in this example, 189 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: geothermal heat is not available, so you're going to have 190 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: to create something with fire. The answer is, you have 191 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: an adjacent fire, get it nice and hot, and then 192 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: you have hot stones heated up in that fire, and 193 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: then those hot stones are transferred from the fire to 194 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: the soup, and that is how you heat the soup 195 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: in the hole. 196 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: Nice, Okay, the hot stone goes in, then you got 197 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: a stew gooing. 198 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, other perishable above ground bowls and pots apparently 199 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: were also used in different cultures with this technique, which 200 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: is generally referred to as stone boiling. In these cases 201 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: you would often have like a wet bark or hide 202 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: scenario to create the vessel. But stone boiling has been 203 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: traced to pre pottery culinary traditions of Native American tribes, 204 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: Paleolithic Chinese groups, and even Neanderthals. And on a quick 205 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: note about Chinese culture, I know when we talk about 206 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: cooking with stones and cooking soup with stones, you instantly 207 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: think about the story of Stone Soup, which I believe 208 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: in most tellings has no relation to to to stone boiling. However, 209 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: Chinese American author Ying Chang Compostein adapted the classic story 210 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: but with the twist, first of all Chinese twist, setting 211 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: it in ancient China, but also incorporating a stone boiling motif. 212 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: In this book called the Real Story of Stone Soup. 213 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 3: Well, Rob, I know you said, everybody knows the story, 214 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: but maybe some people don't. What's the quick version of 215 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: the stone soup? 216 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: Well, the classic stone soup says tail is that, you know, 217 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: you have some individual generally there's sort of a you know, 218 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: a roguish type character. There's that a great adaptation of 219 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: this with some additional elements in Jim Henson's The Storyteller series. 220 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: But here's this this man and he's he's cooking up 221 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: some water and he asks somebody passing by, excuse me, 222 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: I'm making some soup. Could you help me? I just 223 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: need a nice stone And they're, you know, like what, 224 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: what do you need a stone for it? And they're like, well, 225 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm making stone soup. And so they agree. They bring 226 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: this individual a stone, and in many cases, you know, 227 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: the the would be chef here sniffs it, maybe licks 228 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: the stone, and it's like, okay, this is a good one. 229 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: Plunks it in and so now now people are begin 230 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: to get interested. Other passer buyers stop and they're like, 231 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: what's he doing. He's cooking stone soup. They ask him, well, 232 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: how does it taste? When he samples it, He's like, well, 233 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: needs a little salt. So he doesn't have salt, but 234 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: somebody is now they're now invested in this process, and 235 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: so someone brings some salt, but then he chases it again. No, 236 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: needs a little pepper, So someone brings some pepper before along. 237 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: Of course, it needs some celery, it needs some potatoes, 238 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: it needs all these other ingredients, and at the end 239 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: of the process there is this great, big bowl of soup. 240 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: And I think in most tellings it is then communally enjoyed. 241 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: Oh well, that's a great story. And to sort of 242 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: an idea about how you can you can like hype 243 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 3: bootstrap nothing into something. 244 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a wonderful tail. But but yeah. 245 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: In this adaptation, it takes the stone boiling technique and 246 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: factors it in, which which I found was pretty clever. Now, 247 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: you might wonder what kind of evidence is there for 248 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: stone soup. So, according to a few different sources I 249 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: was looking at, basically it comes down to pits that 250 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: are that are found in the archaeological record that have 251 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: stones in them. Stones that are cracked from heat often 252 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: referred to as thermally cracked rocks. So this is this 253 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: indicates that these rocks were heated to a high temperature 254 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: and then added to this broth or added to water 255 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: to help make this broth. And we also tend to 256 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: see this and pit cooking kind of loop together into 257 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: a combined and earth oven cooking tradition. 258 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, so this wouldn't even necessarily always be 259 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 3: something like soup. Like I know that there are some 260 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: methods for like roasting meat, I think Mesoamerican culinary traditions 261 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 3: where you'd like wrap some meat in leaves, like wet 262 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 3: leaves or something and then cook it in a pit 263 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: in the ground with hot coals. 264 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it does certainly speak to human innovation, 265 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: like the if the hole in the ground is your 266 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: level of cooking technology, it doesn't mean you're not coming 267 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: up with new and ingenious ways to tinker with that format, 268 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: such as as you know, eventually developing a wet cooking technology. 269 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 3: And I guess we can come back to this in 270 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: a minute, but I think there are real advantages to 271 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: so called wet cooking technologies that they like, they have 272 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 3: some measurable benefits that some other types of cooking do not. 273 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, so it obviously wet cooking sticks with us, 274 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: and wet cooking survives the use of stone boiling now 275 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,359 Speaker 1: stone boiling. Yeah, it does eventually lose out to other techniques, 276 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: especially container based cooking with pottery, et cetera, because ultimately 277 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: stone boiling requires more maintenance and it isn't nearly as 278 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: passive a technique. So you know, if you're adding those 279 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: hot stones, then you have to keep adding new hot 280 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: stones taking out the old stones. You can't just well, 281 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: let's put the let's put the soup on, and then 282 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: go do these other things required to present the meal. 283 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, nutrition and taste aside. That's another great thing 284 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: about wet cooking. So if you just like put some 285 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: food items in a pot with water and then let 286 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: it boil, you can just ignore it for a long 287 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 3: time and it's not going to burn or anything because 288 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: there's enough water content in there that that's going to 289 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: be fine. 290 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. So one another source I was looking at, there's 291 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: a paper titled stone boiling, Firecracked Rock and nut Oil 292 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: published in The Wisconsin Archaeologist in two thousand and nine 293 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: by James Skibo, and Skibe points out that the whole 294 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: process of adding and removing hot stones during the production 295 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: of nut oil would have resulted in the loss of 296 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: that precious nut oil that was being produced. So that's 297 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: another thing to think about it. It's like, not only 298 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: is it, you know, not a very passive technique, but 299 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: if you're having to keep you know, reaching in there 300 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: with some sort of implement and removing rocks, adding new rocks, 301 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: you're going to lose some of what you're actually brewing up. 302 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, I can see that, like sticking to 303 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: the rocks and stuff. 304 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I should also point out though there is 305 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: apparently evidence of stone boiling surviving into the advent of pottery, 306 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: with the stones added to water inside of vessels. So 307 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: and then I also I believe examples of stone boiling 308 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: that is also taking place in some sort of above 309 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: ground scenario, some sort of like say a wet high 310 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: bag or a wet bark container. So there, it didn't 311 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: have to happen in the ground. But I think the 312 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:55,359 Speaker 1: most certainly to modern are modern understanding of culinary technologies. 313 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: I think the hole in the ground stone boiling scenario 314 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: is perhaps the most amazing and the most removed from 315 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: what we seem to be doing. 316 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 3: Okay, so we might not know exactly when the first 317 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: human boiled something, but we do have a pretty clear 318 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: picture that wet cooking or boiling, simmering, whatever you want 319 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: to call it, cooking something in water is a technique 320 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: that comes along later in the history of cooking, because 321 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: like fire, goes back a long time before, and pretty 322 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: clearly humans were maybe say, roasting things over an open 323 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: flame before they had wet cooking techniques. So where do 324 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 3: these wet cooking techniques come from? Do we think? 325 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: Well? I found a source discussing this. This is from 326 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: John D. Speth in When Did Humans Learn to Boil? 327 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: Twenty fifteen, paleo Anthropology Society. I'm going to read a 328 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: quote from this paper. Quote. Pits that would have been 329 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: suitable for stone boiling are equally scarce until the Upper Paleolithic, 330 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: although the evidence for subsurface features of this sort may 331 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: have been obscured or erased by post taphonomic processes. Not surprisingly, 332 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: they're because of the late appearance of heated stones and 333 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: potential boiling pits. Archaeologists almost without exception, have come to 334 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: the logical conclusion that wet cooking is a late addition 335 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: to human culinary practices, another of a long list of 336 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: technological achievements which we owe to the enhanced cognitive powers 337 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: of fully modern humans. 338 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 3: Okay, so cooking maybe older, but we think wet cooking 339 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 3: is probably something that comes about in the Upper Paleolithic, 340 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 3: which I think is generally like between something like fifty thousand, 341 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: like twelve thousand years ago. 342 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: Now, interestingly enough, I think we've pointed this out before, 343 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: but it's still It's one of those facts that I 344 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: think can be very stimulating is that pottery predates agriculture, 345 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: and according to Brian Fagan and Bill Sillar, very little 346 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: of the oldest pottery remains are actually charred by fire, 347 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: suggesting that these were more prestigious items for displaying food 348 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: than for something you would actually use to cook food. 349 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: So while foragers made use of pottery, we also have 350 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: to remember that this was also the pottery is fragile, 351 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: and it's perhaps not ideal for people who are traveling around. 352 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: So this is quite interesting that Fagan and so I 353 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: to bring up here is that the usefulness of pottery, 354 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: paired with its fragility, might have been a contributing factor 355 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: for some groups that had pottery to settle down, Like 356 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: to make full use of the pottery, you might have 357 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: to stop moving around at least a bit and have 358 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: more of a base of operations, where your pottery has 359 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: less chance of becoming fragmented and shattered, and can be 360 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: used to store things as well as present things and 361 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: so forth. Now some of our earliest pottery fragments. It 362 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: depends where you are in the timeline of discoveries. So 363 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: when Fagan and s Silo we're writing this is from 364 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: the seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World, they were 365 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: pointing to fourteen thousand BCE in Japan as being the 366 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: oldiest oldest known pottery discovery. However, after the publication of 367 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: that book, a twenty twelve paper revealed that Chenrin Cave 368 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: in eastern China was found to contain charred pottery fragments 369 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: dating back twenty thousand years. 370 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. I was looking around at these questions about what 371 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: is the earliest evidence of pottery or pots in general, 372 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: And the earliest pots would be pottery, they would be 373 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: ceramics of some kind, fired out of clay or other 374 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 3: earthen materials, not metal. Metal cooking vessels would come much later, 375 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 3: So the earliest pottery vessels used for cooking. I was 376 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 3: looking what's the evidence for that? And I came across 377 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: a paper from twenty thirteen published in Nature by Oliver 378 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 3: Craig at All called earliest evidence for the use of pottery, 379 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 3: and I also was looking at a write up of 380 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: this in Science by Sid Perkins called first Evidence of 381 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 3: Pottery used for Cooking, and at the time this was 382 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 3: considered some of the earliest direct evidence for pottery used 383 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: explicitly for cooking. And my immediate question was, well, what 384 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: were they cooking in it? Do we have any idea? Actually, yes, 385 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: this paper looks directly into that question what they were 386 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: cooking and helps give us a picture of the way 387 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: of life of the people who use this pottery. So 388 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 3: the authors of this paper argue that the evidence indicates 389 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: pottery technology emerged in East Asia between twelve thousand and 390 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 3: twenty thousand years before the present, and it was an 391 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 3: innovation among hunter gatherers. Rob you mentioned that a minute ago, 392 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 3: but I think it's worth sitting with that for a minute. 393 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: It's a strange thing. You might assume pottery only arises 394 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 3: among people who have adopted farming in an agricultural, settled 395 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 3: way of life that allows them to have fixed homes 396 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 3: and you know, forges and so forth. This kind of 397 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 3: industry of creating earthenware vessels would arise from that setting, 398 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: but no, it does appear to arise before people settled 399 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 3: down and started farming. But this raises the question why 400 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 3: was pottery invented? We were getting an idea of when 401 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 3: and where it was invented, but why, what was driving it? 402 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 3: What was the role it played in people's lives? Well, 403 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: the authors of this paper argue that for the hunter 404 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: gatherers who first started making these pots, and this is 405 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: looking at late place to scene pottery from Japan, a 406 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 3: total of one hundred and one charred deposits from thirteen 407 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 3: different sites all over the Japanese islands, and these would 408 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 3: be pots associated with the Joman culture. The JN. Craig 409 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 3: and co authors here argue that what would have caused 410 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: people to uptake pottery in this context is if the 411 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: pottery provided people with new ways to process and consume foods. 412 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: This would be the driving technological advantage, But we don't 413 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 3: know exactly how these earliest pots were used. So this 414 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 3: study did a chemical analysis on the residue left on 415 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 3: these charred deposits on pottery from all over prehistoric Japan, 416 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 3: and one thing worth noting is that many of these 417 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: sites that the pottery shards were recovered from were near 418 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: inland rivers or lakes, and so they were not necessarily 419 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 3: by the coast. The author's right. We demonstrate that lipids 420 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 3: can be recovered reliably from charred surface deposits adhering to 421 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: pottery dating from about fifteen thousand to eleven eight hundred 422 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: calibrated years before present, and that's again the incipient Jomon period, 423 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 3: continuing the oldest pottery so far investigated, and that in 424 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: most cases these organic compounds are unequivocally derived from processing 425 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 3: fresh water and marine organisms. So at the time of 426 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 3: the paper, it seemed like some of the earliest pots 427 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 3: ever used for cooking were being used for cooking seafood, 428 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: though I guess actually I don't know. Is it still 429 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 3: seafood if it's freshwater fish, I'm not sure. 430 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: Hmm. That's a quandary as well. 431 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 3: More than three quarters of the charred deposits indicated quote 432 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 3: high trophic level aquatic food. Now, high trophic level means 433 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 3: high up the food chain, so primary producers like plants 434 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: are at the bottom, and then you'd have herbivores above them, 435 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 3: and then you'd have carnivores above them, and then you'd 436 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 3: have the top carnivores above them. And I assume high 437 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: trophic level aquatic food means they were not only eating seafood, 438 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: they were eating aquatic carnivores. The paper draws attention to 439 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 3: the possibility that a lot of this was salmon, That 440 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: these pots have fatty acids left by prehistoric cooking of 441 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 3: salmon which travel upstream for spawning, which could explain these 442 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 3: the these highly nutritious seafoods near these inland lakes and rivers, 443 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 3: not necessarily by the shore. 444 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: That's fascinating, because, yeah, the first place in my mind 445 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: went was, okay, perhaps boiling some sort of crustaceans and 446 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: so forth, because sometimes that's that's the best way to 447 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: get at these organisms and turn them into something you 448 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: can you can eat. But salmon it makes sense as well, 449 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: especially if you're imagining a scenario where it's like the 450 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: spawning situation and you have sort of a sudden glut 451 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: of salmon at your disposal. What are you going to 452 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: do with them? 453 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and these people were apparently massively successful at exploiting 454 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 3: the food resources available at the water's edge. I've read 455 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 3: multiple sources, alluding to the idea that apparently just prehistoric 456 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 3: Japan was a great place to be a hunter gatherer. 457 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 3: There were just a lot of available food resources in 458 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: the natural environment. Then you could you could create a 459 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: lot of calories for your society without having to farm. 460 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: But I also want to discuss a few notes on 461 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: what this type of pottery was. So again, this would 462 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 3: have been the incipient Joman culture. The Joemon people actually 463 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: get their archaeological reference name from from a descriptor of 464 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: their pottery. Joeman means something something having to do with 465 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 3: the idea of ropes, and so the pottery they made 466 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: is noted for having decorations where while the clay was 467 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 3: still wet, impressions were made in the clay with ropes. 468 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 3: So if you look up Joemon pottery, you'll see all 469 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: these kind of strange looking fiber textures on the outside 470 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 3: of it. So I guess they would press ropes into 471 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 3: it and then they would fire it to set the 472 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 3: textures in the clay. But there are some other very 473 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: notable characteristics of these early pots. First of all, they 474 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 3: tend to be very small, and second they have round bottoms. 475 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: Rabbi attached a picture of one of these round bottom 476 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 3: pots for you to look at, and it sort of 477 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: goes against what you would assume about nearly any pot 478 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 3: you would come across today. What's the bottom of a 479 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 3: pot got to be? Like it needs to be flat 480 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: so it can sit on a table or on the floor, right, 481 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: h yeah, yeah, these are not flat. You could not 482 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 3: sit these on a table. They would roll over, can't 483 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 3: stand up by itself on a flat surface. That's kind 484 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 3: of odd and it makes you think about, well, wait 485 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: a minute, then, how were they using these pots? Later? 486 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 3: Jomon pottery shows increases in size, so bigger pots, and 487 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 3: they tend to innovate a flat bottom, So it seems 488 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 3: like the later pots would have been able to stand 489 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 3: on a table or on the ground these earlier pots 490 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: know and this has been interpreted as an evolution of 491 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 3: the context in which the pottery was primarily used. So 492 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 3: perhaps the earliest use of these pots was exclusively for 493 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 3: cooking by hunter gatherers, and the round bottom could be 494 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 3: the kind of thing that you would settle into the 495 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 3: coals of a fire. Save a fire burning round bottom 496 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 3: you just kind of push it down into all the 497 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 3: stuff that's burning and it'll sit up by itself that way. 498 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: And I wonder, and this is a question I don't 499 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: know the answer to, dangerous question to ask. I wonder 500 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: if the small size of the bowls has to do 501 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: with the fact that if the smaller the vessel, the 502 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: quicker the cook time for the contents, and therefore you're 503 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: maybe risking the cracking of the bowl by the heat 504 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: a little less, because that ends up being I think, 505 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: one of the factors in eventually moving on to metal 506 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: based cooking technologies, as you don't have to really worry 507 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: about them cracking the way you would have to worry 508 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: about high temperature cracks and pottery. 509 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: That's an interesting idea. I don't know. I didn't read 510 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: anything about that, but that seems possible to me. One 511 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 3: thing I did read is simply that the smaller size 512 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: of these earliest cooking pots has to do with the 513 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 3: nomadic lifestyle of the people who probably use them. If 514 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: you're like moving around a lot and you need to 515 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: take a pot from one place to another, obviously it's 516 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: better for that pot to be smaller. It's less likely 517 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 3: it's going to be easier to move, less likely to break. 518 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 3: And it seems again like the pots got larger and 519 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: had flatter bottoms once people started switching more to an 520 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 3: agricultural lifestyle. 521 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean otherwise, like, how many flat surfaces are 522 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: you really dealing with? Certainly and certainly not within the 523 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: context of the campfire. 524 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the right answer, because the 525 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 3: other thing is like, you could also have a flat 526 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: bottomed pot that could sit in the campfire. So there's 527 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: no reason I can think of why to use them 528 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 3: in a fire. The bottom would have to be round 529 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: like that. I don't know if there is a reason 530 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: anybody's aware of that they would have to be round 531 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: like this. I just think it's funny that these earliest 532 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: pots wouldn't stand up by themselves unless maybe they were 533 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: used with some kind of stand Maybe they know, people 534 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 3: built things that didn't survive as much, like a holder 535 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: of some kind. 536 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, or also it could have to do I'm guessing here, 537 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: what with making it more durable and pack for people 538 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: on the move, you know, thinking roughly about against like 539 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: if you're going to, if you're going to, you know, 540 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: create the walls of a castle to withstand battering rams 541 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: and so forth. You don't want you don't want a 542 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: sharp right angle. You want to have a smooth, rounded corner. 543 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know if that has 544 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: anything to do with the design of these pots or not. 545 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the bottom does kind of look like an egg. 546 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 3: Eggs or eggs are good design, right yeah, yeah, Oh, 547 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: but I guess we should talk for a minute again 548 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 3: about like, what what is the benefit of a pot 549 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: for cooking? Pot is not the only way to cook 550 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: you can. So let's say you catch the salmon in 551 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: the river and oh boy, you know delicious, you know, 552 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 3: nice fatty meat. It's great. You could put it on 553 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 3: a big old stick and just roast it over then 554 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: open flame. What kind of advantage does cooking it in 555 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 3: a pot with water bring? 556 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: Well, One important factor that is brought up in the 557 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: literature is that boiling allows for faster and more thorough 558 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: cooking of ingredients, and it also creates a tasty broth. 559 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: Later on, this is also going to be important with starches. 560 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: Starches are going to thicken up everything, so boiling is 561 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: vital to subsequent traditions of rice, ultimately noodles and so 562 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: much more. 563 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: Right, But boiling also I would say, helps keep maximum 564 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 3: nutrition available to eat because it all stays in the 565 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: pot when you're boiling, or I mean, I guess some 566 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: gets out. There's some splatter and lost through steam and 567 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: all that, but it's minimal. When you're cooking over an 568 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: open fire, you just think about a lot of nutrition 569 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 3: is probably dripping right off of your food, and that's 570 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 3: precious food energy that's just sizzling in the fire down below. 571 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 3: In a soup, everything stays in the pot. It all 572 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 3: becomes part of a nutritious broth and you can have 573 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: every last drop. 574 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: Oh, this reminds me of it. We didn't have episode 575 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: of the show where we talked about what gravy A 576 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: bit gravy. Yeah, gravy is essentially the legacy of meat 577 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: drippings and so forth, the precious drippings. 578 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we were talking. I don't remember the name 579 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 3: of the people, but they were a group that lived 580 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: in the region that is today Finland, and these people 581 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: had some religious traditions, like of like rituals involving cooking 582 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 3: bear meat and the gravy made from the bear. 583 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And then of course we get into this 584 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: a little bit in the Invention episode on Ketchup, where 585 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: you're also dealing with kind of the dripping based condiment 586 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: that is then used as a way to transform other dishes. 587 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: I believe also with boiling, there's an advantage in just 588 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: how you're heating, say a chunk of fish, right like 589 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: the way that the heat is applied to the flesh. 590 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, you certainly 591 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: can boil foods until they're very overdone to his person 592 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 3: with sensitive taste. But it's harder to burn foods if 593 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: you're boiling them in water. They will just continue to leach. 594 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 3: I mean, the meat that gets boiled may become very 595 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 3: tough and lose a lot of flavor, but the flavor 596 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 3: is getting lost again into the broth, which you can 597 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 3: drink right now. 598 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: There were certainly, you do see mentioned in the literature 599 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: of quote unquote ceramic cauldrons, which were simply larger ceramic 600 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: pots that could be used over an open fire. But 601 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: of course there are material limits. Even with modern ceramics, 602 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: it can warp and crack in ways that metal does not. 603 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: But of course we didn't just go straight from pottery 604 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: to cast iron cauldrons. There's this whole metallurgical evolution involving copper, bronze, brass, gold, 605 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: and silver. I think we've discussed the broad dates on 606 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: these innovations before, but in the Old world it tends 607 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: to go like copper eighth millennium BCE, copper smelting by six, 608 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: bronze by the third, and brass by the final centuries. 609 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: B wrought iron by the third millennium BCE, cast iron 610 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: in the ninth century BCE. He treated steel in crucible 611 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: steel during the first millennium BCE. 612 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: I gotta say that's a great luxury of the modern era. 613 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 3: I appreciate being able to cook in steel vessels or 614 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 3: metal vessels generally, and not having to try to cook 615 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 3: in earthenware pots. Now this is sort of tangential to 616 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 3: the subject, but when I think about soup, I necessarily 617 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 3: think about seasoning, you know, casting all your little spells 618 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: of flavor on the cauldron as it bubbles. And so 619 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 3: I did want to mention briefly that I came across 620 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 3: a paper about early evidence for the use of spices 621 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 3: in cooking, wet cooking, soup, cooking in clay pottery. There 622 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 3: was a paper published called Phytoliths in Pottery Reveal the 623 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 3: use of spice in European prehistoric culture. This was by 624 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 3: Hailey Soall at All published in Plus one in August 625 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 3: twenty thirteen. And this study actually did analysis of what 626 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 3: are called phyto that literally means plant rocks or plant stones, 627 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 3: which are these tiny mineral structures that you can find 628 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 3: inside plants, which are made out generally out of silica 629 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 3: that is taken up from the soil. Minerals get taken 630 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 3: up from the roots into the plant's tissues and creates 631 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 3: these little mineral deposits. And these mineral deposits can of 632 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 3: course survive for a long time and can tell you 633 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 3: things about ancient plants. So in this paper they looked 634 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 3: at phytoliths that were left behind in what they call 635 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 3: carbonized food deposits on prehistoric pottery. I think these would 636 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 3: be kind of like the charred patches that we were 637 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 3: looking at in that other paper. They say these are 638 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,959 Speaker 3: from quote, the Western Baltic dating from six thousand, one 639 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 3: hundred calibrated years before present to five seven hundred and 640 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 3: fifty before present. Now, these clay cooking pots were found 641 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 3: at the Neolithic sites in I believe modern day Denmark 642 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 3: and Germany. And so they analyze the fytoliths in these 643 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 3: pots to determine what these prehistoric people were seasoning their 644 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 3: food with, and they found out that it was a 645 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 3: modern garlic mustard seed. I didn't know those terms could 646 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 3: be combined that way, but modern garlic mustard seed or 647 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: Aliaria petiolata. They write, quote as this seed has a 648 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 3: strong flavor, little nutritional value, and the fidalists are found 649 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 3: in pots along with terrestrial and marine animal residues. These 650 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 3: findings are the first direct evidence for the spicing of 651 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 3: food in European prehistoric cuisine. 652 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: Wow, that's incredible. 653 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 3: They also say that this suggests a much greater antiquity 654 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: for the spicing of foods than you can tell from 655 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 3: any other previous physical records. So that's pretty impressive to me, 656 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,479 Speaker 3: because again, these are people probably from before the age 657 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 3: of agriculture, or if they are practicing agriculture, it's early 658 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 3: sort of proto agricultures. You have either hunter gatherers or 659 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 3: early farmers putting putting spices into their food because they 660 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 3: just got to have more flavor. 661 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean it makes sense, right, I mean, 662 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: you're by necessity, you have to figure out what in 663 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: your surrounding environment is useful as food. Also what has 664 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: some sort of medicinal property or some other property that's 665 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: worth knowing, that's even some poisonous property. And then you 666 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: get into this area, well, okay, this is this is 667 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: maybe a little too potent to be consumed outright, but 668 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: of course it can be added to food, and we 669 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: can add it to this broth that we're preparing. This 670 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: reminds me too of how in Chinese traditions it's often 671 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: described that like the earliest tea traditions were not that 672 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: we're not necessarily the consumption of tea as a drink 673 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 1: the way we think of it now, but more as 674 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: a soup, as this thing that is prepared thusly. So 675 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: this ties in with so much we're going to be 676 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: discussing about, like what what is the cauldron? What is 677 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: the bowl of heated liquid? It is a place of transfer. 678 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: It can take, you know, that which is inedible and 679 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: make it edible. It can take it can combine elements 680 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: and create something entirely new out of them. And this 681 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: transformative nature of the cauldron is key to these these various, 682 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: even far flung traditions that involve the supernatural in the divine. 683 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so we're coming back with cauldrons, right. 684 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we're going to be back in the next 685 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: episode talking about cauldron traditions, particularly in Chinese mythology. Chinese traditions, 686 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of wonderful stuff in there that gets 687 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: gets very divine but also highly infernal. 688 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: Love an evil cauldron. 689 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so we'll be back in the next episode, 690 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: but we'd love to hear from everyone out there. What 691 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: are your thoughts about soup and soup cooking technology. I 692 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: know that some of you out there have have written 693 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: in about various sort of older, you know, ancient practice 694 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: that have been either revitalized or just you know, just 695 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: explored as an exercise. So I would be very interested 696 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: if anyone out there has done any any stone boiling 697 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: and if you have any tidbits you'd like to share 698 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: about that experience, because I find the whole process fascinating, 699 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: So right in with any of that. In the meantime, 700 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 701 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, the core episodes published Tuesdays and Thursdays, 702 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed On Mondays, 703 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: we usually do listener mail. On Wednesdays, we usually do 704 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: an artifact or a monster Fact episode that's a short 705 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: form episode, and then on Fridays we set aside most 706 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: serious concerns and just talk about a weird film on 707 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. 708 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 709 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 3: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 710 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 711 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 712 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 713 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 714 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 3: Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 715 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 716 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.