1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked In Massacre, A production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: and KAT Studios, Episode seven, four thousand Miles Away. I'm 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kati's Studios, with Stephanie 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: Leidecker and Jeff Shane. After the Rodent family was brutally 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: gunned down in their homes, authorities embarked in what would 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: become the largest homicide investigation in Ohio's history. Over the 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: course of the case's first year, law enforcement officers began 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: compiling a staggering amount of clues that they hoped would 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: lead to the killers. 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: Ohio Attorney General Mike Dwine, giving an update in the 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: Pike County murders. 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 3: You received eight hundred and eighty three tips. We have 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 3: conducted four hundred and sixty. 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 4: Five interviews, the Wine says. 15 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 5: There have also been thirty eight search warns issued, but 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 5: so far new arrest. 17 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 3: I think that we've made significant progress. 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: But by early twenty seventeen, the evidence that authorities had 19 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: collected was pointing them towards one group of people, in particular, 20 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 1: the Wagner family. That spring, with the case heating up, 21 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: the Wagners decided to leave the Piked in area with 22 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin's daughter Sophia until they sold 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: their farm, packed up their belongings, and drove four thousand 24 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: miles north to Keenei, Alaska, a city of about eight 25 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: thousand people southwest of Anchorage. It was a move that 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: Wagner relative Deray not only encouraged, but conceived of. 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 6: They had been wanting to move to Alaska for a 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 6: while because the pastor of the church moved there. He's 29 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 6: very important headstone in their family. I'm the one that 30 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 6: told him go to Alaska. Number one, the state of 31 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 6: Ohio can not afford to extradite you from Alaska back home. 32 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 6: I just thought it was the griatest that they took off. 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 6: I said, that's the best thing in the world for 34 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 6: the kids, and it's the best thing in the world 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 6: for you, guys. 36 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: The family quickly got settled in keen I. They lived 37 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: together in a double white trailer on a large piece 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: of property. Billy and Angela even registered to vote. Jeff 39 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: talked to one of the Wagner's family relatives who kept 40 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: in touch with them while they were in Alaska. She 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: asked us not to use her name, but told us 42 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: about their life once they arrived. 43 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: What was their life like in Alaska? 44 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 7: Well, Jake has got a job, it was a construction 45 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 7: type business. Angela didn't work. I think she might have 46 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 7: done some things from like home or the Annett or 47 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 7: something like that. And Bill, I'm not sure what he 48 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 7: did exactly, but they did have a very nice home 49 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 7: in Alaska that they were in the process of trying 50 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 7: to buy from what I understand anyways, and Jake he 51 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 7: had Sophia at the time, and they just kind of 52 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 7: work get in by. 53 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: The Wagner's sudden departure left the whole town of piped 54 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: and bewildered and suspicious. Dana Roden's friend Stephanne remembers the 55 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: day she heard the news. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. 56 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 8: Well, when they left for Alaska, I was like, Oh, wow, 57 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 8: they're gonna they're running, you know, they're running. And then 58 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 8: I thought they'll get away with it if they did this, 59 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 8: if they did this, they will get away with it. 60 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 4: Or people talking about the Wagners, like, was the feeling 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 4: that they might have been guilty or what were people 62 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 4: thinking or speculating in town. 63 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 8: Yeah, they pretty much thought that, you know that was 64 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 8: the that was the deal. 65 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 5: They were running from it. 66 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: But the Wagner's relocation didn't hinder the investigation. According to 67 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: reporter James Pilcher, it only helped to move the case forward. 68 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 9: They moved to Alaska, which raised even more suspicion. But 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 9: then the very following month, law enforcement actually finally searches 70 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 9: the properties where the Wagners lived. So that was really 71 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 9: the first public indication that the Wagners were possible suspects, 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 9: if not people of interest, So that started to tighten 73 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 9: the noose in terms of the Wagner's. 74 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: On June sixth, twenty seventeen, as the investigation pressed on, 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: Attorney General Mike DeWine appealed to the public for information 76 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: connecting the Wagoners to the crime. 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 10: Investigators want any information about the family, including information about vehicles, guns, 78 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 10: and ammunition. Anyone with information is asked. 79 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 4: To call the past uns. 80 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: Investigative journalists Jodi Barr recalled the Attorney General's announcement. 81 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: Other than being on the ground in Tight County and 82 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 2: hearing the Waggers' names come up from time to time 83 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: and you had no verifiable leads, or you would exhaust 84 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: all leads, that was the first time that anything was 85 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: said in public from anybody with this investigation that they 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: may have people that they were looking at and who 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: potentially had something to do with this, and at that time, 88 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: no one knew the extent of the involvement that the 89 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: investigators believed the Waggers may have had. It was just 90 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: they were asking for help, and that seemed really strange. 91 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 2: But it also, on the other hand, it connected some 92 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 2: of the pieces that we had heard in the beginning, 93 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: you know, that maybe gave more weight to the custody 94 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: issues that we were trying to dig into before. 95 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 9: But it was still just it was still. 96 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: Confusing that they would come out and say that and 97 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: no arrests made, no indictments made, but yet they were 98 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 2: asking for help to identify Yeah. 99 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 4: Is that unusual that they would just kind of like 100 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 4: blatantly say a name and be like, does anyone know 101 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 4: anything about this person who's not an official suspect or 102 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 4: someone we've arrested. 103 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: Even it's just confusing, and I would love to ask, now, 104 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: Governor Mike DeWine, you know why they played it the 105 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 2: way they played it, You know, did they know what 106 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: they needed to know? 107 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 7: Then? 108 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: Were they trying to have the Wagners make a misstep 109 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: when they announced this to the world. 110 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: Mike Dewayne's press release prompted the Wagner's family attorney John K. Clark, 111 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: to accuse law enforcement of harassing his clients. Here's Jeff, 112 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: followed by Stephanie. 113 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 4: In a statement to the Cincinnati inquire the lawyer said 114 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: that the authorities were clueless and competent where they themselves 115 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 4: were involved in a cover up. In short, his clients 116 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 4: were innocent. 117 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 11: That's because, according to Clark, the Wagners were cooperating with 118 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 11: officials and had provided authorities with everything they had asked for, 119 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 11: including laptops, phones, and DNA willingly, and they also agreed 120 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 11: to repeated interviews with the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. 121 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 11: Clark even said that the Wagners told BCI agents that 122 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 11: they were in fact moving. 123 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: I spoke with former Ohio Prosecutor Mike Allen about the 124 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: legal implications of the Wagner's cooperation. What about the Wagners 125 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: and their compliance with authorities? I know their lawyer has 126 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: said they've cooperated one hundred and ten percent. Can you 127 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: talk through the details of. 128 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 12: That, sure? I mean, from what I understand, they did 129 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 12: turn over some things laptops, phones that they submitted to DNA, 130 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 12: giving exemplars which they could be compelled to do anyway. 131 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 12: Some of them at least were interviewed by Ohio BCI agents, 132 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 12: and I guess they told those agents that they were 133 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 12: traveling and about to move to Atlaska, and they claimed 134 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 12: they had been thinking about that for a long time. 135 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 12: So yeah, I mean, from what I can see, there 136 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 12: was some cooperation. But whether it was one hundred and 137 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 12: ten percent, I don't know. And frankly I doubt because 138 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 12: that rarely happens. 139 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: Does that do anything when it comes to juries? You know? 140 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: Does that hold sway? 141 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 12: It can? You know in closing argument and the defense 142 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 12: lawyer could stand up and say to the jury, my client, 143 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 12: you know, he cooperated one hundred and ten percent, you know, 144 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 12: meaning that he has nothing to hide. 145 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: The Cincinnati Inquirer even tracked the family down in Alaska 146 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: in July of twenty seventeen. In a published article, Jake 147 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: Wagner said that he had moved to give Sophia a 148 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: better life. This is Jodi Barr again. 149 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: The Cincinnati Inquirer obviously went there and they found them. 150 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it was they didn't try to slip off 151 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. It didn't seem I mean, 152 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: if a reporter could find them, then obviously law enforcement 153 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: knew very much where they were at that point in time. 154 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: I mean, as far as a level of cooperation, we 155 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: haven't heard anything yet that said the Wagers weren't cooperating 156 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: with the law enforcement. Did they do it? We want 157 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: to know now. Obviously everybody wants to know right now, 158 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: and you don't let the process play out. But man, 159 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: if they're cooperating, as this attorney says, they're giving over 160 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: computers and laptop, you know, DNA, whatever it takes. You know, 161 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: people who aren't experts in criminology, we look at that 162 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: and go, well, man, that sounds like an innocent person. 163 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: An innocent person will be doing that. 164 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: Despite their involvement in a very large and very active 165 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: murder investigation. The Wagners were trying to start a new 166 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: life in Alaska and didn't seem to have any intention 167 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: of returning. Here's our anonymous Wagner family source. 168 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 7: When I would ask interest how things going, You know, winter, 169 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 7: you can come back and visit, or so on and 170 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 7: so forth, she was kind of just really backwards about it. 171 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 7: She never would really tell me what they were doing. 172 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 7: She never really said when she would be back home 173 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 7: to visit, just that she misses us, you know, and 174 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 7: that she would love to be able to come home, 175 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 7: but right now she can't. And that she made the 176 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 7: comment on and said that if she did get to 177 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 7: come back, that she couldn't tell me over the phone, 178 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 7: that she would just basically have to show up, and 179 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 7: that once she made it here, then she would contact 180 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 7: me and let me know, but that she didn't, you know, 181 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 7: want a lot of people to find out about it. 182 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: In Alaska, the family went about life as normal. They 183 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: tried to fit into the local community and became regular 184 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: parishioners at the local church. Their pastor even described them 185 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: to the Dayton Daily News as quote good country people. 186 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: We reached out to the pastor, who declined to speak 187 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: with us. It was at this same church that Jake 188 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: Wagner was introduced to another churchgoer, Elizabeth Armor. The couple 189 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: dated for several months, and then in March twenty eighteen, 190 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: they got married. This is Jodie Barr. 191 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: I've seen you know people I know lost of spouse. 192 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: You know they're married again. 193 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 4: Six months. 194 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: If he's interested and he got remarried and wanted to 195 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: carry on with his life, then you know, maybe that's it. 196 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: But if he really is guilty of having a hand 197 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: and killing eight people and one of those being the 198 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: mother of his own child, and then he enters into 199 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: vows with another woman within months of that, ooh, I 200 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know what kind of person you're 201 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: dealing with. 202 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 12: Here. 203 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie talking about what she learned by looking at 204 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Armer's Facebook posts. 205 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 11: She took to Facebook to let the world know just 206 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 11: how dangerous being involved with the Wagners could be. Elizabeth 207 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 11: said in one of her posts that God told her 208 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 11: to come forward about her relationship with Jake Wagner. According 209 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 11: to her posts, Elizabeth met Jake through the church and 210 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 11: then was encouraged to get to know him by her pastor. 211 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 11: But she maintained that she had no idea that the 212 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 11: Wagners were involved in such a large murder investigation, and 213 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 11: when that news of the road and massacre came up, 214 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 11: the pastor had vouched for the Wagners, telling her that 215 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 11: the charges were just slander against the family. However, in 216 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 11: another post, she said she wanted to just be a 217 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 11: mother to Sophia, but that she ended up marrying her 218 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 11: worst nightmare. All of those posts have since been taken down. 219 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 11: We've tried to find her and contact her directly, and 220 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 11: she's literally nowhere to be found. 221 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: Then, in the spring of twenty eighteen, two years after 222 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: the Rodents were killed, the Wagner shocked everyone again, this 223 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: time by returning to the Pipedon area. Our Wagner family 224 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 1: relative explained why they decided. 225 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 7: To come home from what I like, I said, I 226 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 7: have understood just some a little bit that I talked 227 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 7: to Angela and then our family and general talking. They 228 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 7: had came back home because built family, his father got 229 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 7: sick and they couldn't afford or they were losing what 230 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 7: the whole and everything that they had there in Alaska. 231 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 7: So I basically just like it was a handful of 232 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 7: that type of stuff. So they decided that they were 233 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 7: gonna come back down here and they were just gonna 234 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 7: get everything basically situated here. Once that happened, and once 235 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 7: they got back on their feet, basically, then they were 236 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 7: planning to go back. They wanted to go back. Angela 237 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 7: wanted to go back there. She made that clear to 238 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 7: her father multiple times that that was going to be, 239 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 7: you know, a place that they were. They were really 240 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 7: looking forward. She lived and just wanted to be there, 241 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 7: but they had a bunch of stuff that they still 242 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 7: had to take care of in order for that to happen. 243 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: The move seemed to baffle everyone and piked In Here's 244 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: local resident Annie. 245 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 5: If you think about it, the Wagoners were scott free. 246 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 5: They went to Alaska. They could have took off and 247 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 5: nobody could have ever seen them again ever, But they 248 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: came back here. They came back. Now, my the way 249 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 5: that I am, I would never do that. But if 250 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 5: I had pulled something off like that and got away 251 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 5: with it that long and went to Alastis, you know, 252 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 5: I'm packing my shit and I'm hitting the woods and 253 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 5: nobody's ever gonna see me again, I'm sure the hell 254 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 5: I'm not going to come back. The only way I 255 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 5: would come back is if I thought my ass covered. 256 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: Upon returning to piked In, the Wagoners tried to fly 257 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: under the radar and return to life as normal, but 258 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: our Wagner family relative told Jeff that their homecoming was 259 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: anything but welcome. 260 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 4: When they came back, were people kind of like has 261 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 4: the story died down or were people like, oh, the 262 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 4: wagoners are back. It was probably. 263 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 7: Quiet for about I don't know, two three weeks if that, 264 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 7: and then everybody found out that they were back in town, 265 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 7: and they just absolutely tortured. I mean daily. Everybody had 266 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 7: started basically attacking then the community, accusing them of murdering 267 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 7: those people, like if they were in town and people 268 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 7: identified their vehicle, they would throw pot bottles at him. 269 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 7: Angela had actually went into a store one day and 270 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 7: some woman had actually flewed up behind Angela. She was 271 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 7: coming back out of the store and threw a glass 272 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 7: key bottle after her and it busted her in the back. 273 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 7: She was constantly getting it was less and right, like 274 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 7: anybody that knew them or that knew our family. Like 275 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 7: where we lived, there was a handful of people that 276 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 7: had drop on my house and then they were throwing stuff. 277 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 7: Because I lived kind of right on the highway and 278 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 7: my house is very easy to spot. I have no privacy, 279 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 7: so when they I was getting trash, people were throwing 280 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 7: their trash out in my yard, in my driveway. They 281 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 7: were trying to hit us while we were me and 282 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 7: my son at the time. You know, they were just 283 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 7: doing my workplace. My vehicle was parked outside and my 284 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 7: vehicle got keyed. They had, of course through ends on 285 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 7: it all that type of stuff, wrote murderer on it 286 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 7: when I had app nothing to do with any of that. 287 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: As things began to unravel for the Wagner's law enforcement 288 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: was tightening up the case against the family. It seemed 289 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: like it was only a matter of time before they 290 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: were arrested. 291 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: Investigators now believe there were multiple attackers, as according to 292 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: information from the Ohio Attorney General's office. 293 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 12: The Ohio Attorney General says the investigation is progressing. 294 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 7: Wine adds his office knows a lot more about what 295 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 7: goes on in those Pike County hills. 296 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: Now we know a lot more today. 297 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 12: Have we cracked the cage? 298 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 3: Have we come up with enough evidence to arrest someone 299 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: and get them convicted? 300 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 7: No, we have not. 301 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 12: But if we made the progress, oh, yeah, we made 302 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 12: a lot of progress. 303 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: On Halloween of twenty eighteen, authorities conducted yet another search 304 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: on a Wagner family property, this time a farm formerly 305 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: owned by Jake and George Wagner. During that raid, investigators 306 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: uncovered a homemade silencer at the bottom of a well, 307 00:15:58,560 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: it would seem to be the final piece of the 308 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: puzzle for investigators. As we discussed in great detail in 309 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: episode two. On November thirteenth, Angela and Billy Wagner and 310 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: their two sons, Jake and George Wagner, were arrested for 311 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: the murders of eight members of the Rodent family and everyone. 312 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: We have major developments tonight in a bizarre and tragic 313 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: murder case. 314 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 12: He took two and a half years, but arrests have 315 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 12: finally been made in the Pike County massacre. 316 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 4: George Billy Wagner the third, he's forty seven. 317 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 8: Also forty eight year old Angela Wagner. 318 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: Twenty seven year old George Wagner the fourth, and twenty 319 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: six year old Edward Jake Wagner are now facing charges. 320 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 13: The Attorney General announced two more arrests of people accused 321 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 13: of being involved. 322 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: Angela's mother, Rita Knugal and Billy's mother, Fredrika Wangner. We're 323 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: also arrested today in conjunction with the cover up of 324 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: these crimes. 325 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be 326 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Angela, Billy, Jake, and George Wagner 327 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother Rita Joe Nucom, 328 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both charged with obstruction 329 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: of justice and perjury. Nucom was also charged with forgery. 330 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: All six of them pled not guilty, and our justice 331 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: system presumes innocence until guilt is proven at first blush, 332 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: it seems far fetched to believe that these two grandmothers 333 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: had a part in conspiring to pull off Ohio's largest 334 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: mass murder. Jeff spoke with Mike Allen about the charges 335 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: against Frederica Wagner. 336 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 4: Frederica has been charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. 337 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 4: So how do you explain that to someone who you know, 338 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 4: like me, who's never been to law school or doesn't 339 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 4: know what it means. 340 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 12: Well, perjury is pretty simple under Ohio law. It just 341 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 12: basically says that you cannot knowingly make a false statement 342 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 12: in an efficient proceeding while you are under oath. It's 343 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 12: real simple, and the constructing justice is pretty simple as well. 344 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 12: Ohiolall provides that you can't, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, 345 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 12: or prosecution of a person, do anything that would assist 346 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 12: someone in doing that and that's one that that's charged 347 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 12: pretty frequently. You don't see perjury charged a lot because 348 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 12: it's so difficult to prove, but but convicted of both, 349 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 12: she would be facing four years max. 350 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: Plainly stated, prosecutors think Frederica was lying to them and 351 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: trying to hinder the investigation to cover up for her family. 352 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: We'll get into the specifics of her charges later. For 353 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: now here, Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 354 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 11: We wondered if there was anything in Frederica Wagner's past 355 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 11: that could have indicated that she would be involved in 356 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 11: something as gruesome as mass murder. 357 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 4: As we know, the Wagners were a well known and 358 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 4: well to do family in the Pecton area, and Frederica 359 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 4: Wagner was at the helm of this. A self described entrepreneur, 360 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: she owned properties oliver Pie County that spanned over seventeen 361 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 4: hundred acres and were valued at more than four million dollars. 362 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 4: She'd also founded two nonprofits, Lucasville Mission, a church that 363 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 4: helps underprivileged children, and the Crystal Springs Home, a facility 364 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 4: that provides services to developmentally disabled adults. As we've learned 365 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: throughout the series, Frederica had her detractors as well as 366 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: her supporters in the community. Growing up, Christina Howard spent 367 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: a lot of time with Frederica. In fact, her mom 368 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 4: worked at the Crystal Springs Home. 369 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 14: She was pretty well known by everybody, and if she 370 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 14: wasn't doing a charity or something outside of church, since 371 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 14: she was doing one in church. She owned over two 372 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 14: hundred acres of land and a lot of people that 373 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 14: lived on her property that she rented out to. She 374 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 14: would say, hey, you know, if you come to church, 375 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 14: then I won't charge you a diamond root. And all 376 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 14: she ever asked of was for them to go to church. 377 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 14: She was always nice to be growing up. She's never 378 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 14: yelled at me. She's never really told me no. There 379 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 14: would be times that I would go to work with 380 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 14: mom and I would just hang out at Freddy's all 381 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 14: day long while my mom was working, you know, I 382 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 14: would just hang out feed the horses, the maths, brush them. 383 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 14: She was literally like a grandma to me growing up. 384 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Deray Paint's a similar portrait of Frederica. She told us 385 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: about the pastoral surroundings of her grandmother's Flying w farms 386 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: and her family's legacy in the area. 387 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 6: If you go to their house. 388 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 10: You go eighty eight miles out of Cincinnati east on 389 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 10: thirty three, and I'm telling you you were in the hills, 390 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 10: the Appalachian. 391 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 6: Hills of Ohio at this time. 392 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 10: Then all of a sudden, you'll see something to the right. 393 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 10: It looks like a real nice entryway. It's flying w 394 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 10: farms on it. And you look and you see a 395 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 10: trailer sitting right next to the entrance, a nice entrance 396 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 10: with wrought iron gates. It's got blind w's on it. 397 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 14: Then you look. 398 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 5: Aways up you see all these little. 399 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 10: Houses, some of them were catteries. And then she's got 400 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 10: the pig house, and then she's got the old walking 401 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 10: horse barn, and then she's got the shop. Then you 402 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 10: come to her her colonial style on home, and it's 403 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 10: a very homey feeling. When you walk into the home, 404 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 10: you feel like you're going home. And I see all 405 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 10: my grandmother's Catholic little statues around and pictures of the 406 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 10: kids on the horses, pictures of all their famous horses. 407 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 6: She developed a breed of horse called the Georgian Grande 408 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 6: she named after my uncle, which she takes no credits for. 409 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 6: The horses is what the driving passion was for Frederica 410 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 6: involve to be together, stay together, work together, because that's 411 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 6: the problem I think with people who get married today. 412 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 10: Okay, so it's natural to want to have relationships, it's 413 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 10: natural to want to have kids when you're young, all 414 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 10: those hormones in your head. 415 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 9: But to keep you. 416 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 10: Together, you'd better have something solid and common that you 417 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 10: have to work with together to keep your family, leading 418 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 10: them a legacy. And that's what Frederica Wagner did for 419 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 10: her kids. Her and Bob developed a breed a horse. 420 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 10: Over years, they have a two thousand acre farm. They 421 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 10: had three kids, and they left them a legacy. 422 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 5: You know, we're not talking about people who are trained murderers. 423 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: We're talking about real people. 424 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 6: Here who had real, honest and goodness, god fearing lives. 425 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 4: Frederica Wagner's attorney described her as a god fearing woman 426 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 4: who taught Sunday school for nearly half a century and 427 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: lived about as close to the cross as anyone can. 428 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 4: We all struggled with this contradiction in Frederica Wagner. How 429 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 4: could this sweet grandmother who was charitable and kind be 430 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 4: involved in any capacity with the murder of eight people. 431 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: So we decided to look a little deeper into Pikedon's 432 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 4: most giving resident, and what we found was not all virtuous. 433 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 4: Jody Barfield us in. 434 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: After the world became familiar with the Wagner family. You know, 435 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 2: of course, reporters start digging into their backgrounds, and it's 436 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: just some of the things that come out. You learn 437 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: about the business dealings, and you know what Frederica, you know, 438 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: is accused of doing in the past. This is good 439 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 2: background information to have when you're trying to understand who 440 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: these people are. But I have to say, when I 441 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 2: was on the ground in Pike County, Ohio, when I 442 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: was hearing their names, when I went by Flying W Farm, 443 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it is a peaceful, quaint farm tucked into 444 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 2: the rolling hills of eastern Ohio. When you drive by there, 445 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: nothing on the surface points to anything that's been a 446 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: ledge now that any of the people involved in any 447 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: of this could have been involved in the killing of 448 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: eight people. That's the beauty of investigations, I guess, is 449 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: that you just don't know the whole story until you 450 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: know the whole story. 451 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 452 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: in a moment. Let's start with Flying W farms. The 453 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: farm breeds horses as well as dogs and pigs typically 454 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: found in New Zealand. In the nineteen nineties, Frederica got 455 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: into legal trouble with a group of customers surrounding the 456 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: sale of these pigs. Here's Mike Gallon again. 457 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 12: She was sued by a group of customers. I guess 458 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 12: the allegation was that her place, I think it was 459 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 12: the Flying W it didn't meet the standards promise for 460 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 12: the sale of exotic animals, which is interesting. I guess 461 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 12: the group said that she defrauded them in the sales. 462 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 12: They gave them some animals that didn't match the advertised description. 463 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: Dana Roden's friend Becky told Jeff that Flying W Farms 464 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: had been whispered about and piked in for years. 465 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 13: At one point in time, you know, for Erika was 466 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 13: a person to be feared in the county because there 467 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 13: was always rumors. I don't know exactly what all the 468 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 13: rumors was, but everybody's like, oh, you don't want to 469 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 13: go back there. Bad things happen to people that go 470 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 13: back here. So you know, I stayed away from my 471 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 13: area way back where Fredrika's farm because I've always heard 472 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 13: a bad things about it. So, yeah, somewhere I would never. 473 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: Go piked in local Barbara told Jeff about one rumor 474 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: in particular, they. 475 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 8: Made their money in horses and miniature horses, and there's 476 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 8: some shady dealings that I've heard about going on there, 477 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 8: like them stuffing the horses with drugs and sending them 478 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 8: back and forth to Mexico, and you know, just awful 479 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 8: things like that. 480 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: Now, we obviously can't prove that, but it's worth mentioning 481 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: because it's this type of thing that people in Pike 482 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: didn't like to whisper about. One thing we should talk 483 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: about is this quote unquote life changing rent to own 484 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: operation Frederica Wagner, designed to help lower income residents. 485 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 11: Over the decades, Frederica Wagner entered into at least one 486 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 11: hundred and thirty two land installment contracts. Now, these contracts 487 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 11: basically allowed the Wagners to retain deeds on land as 488 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 11: buyers attempted to pay off the principle and the interest. 489 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 11: The idea was that if the buyers made all of 490 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 11: their payments, they'd eventually become landowners, but it rarely played 491 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 11: out that way. In fact, as it turns out, only 492 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 11: twelve of those contracts were actually satisfied, twelve out of 493 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 11: one hundred and thirty two. And in looking into all 494 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 11: of the deals, nearly eighty percent of them were ultimately 495 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 11: terminated without a corresponding d transfer, And that basically indicates 496 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 11: despite somebody making payments, at the end of the day, 497 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 11: the land stayed in Frederica Wagner's possession. There are countless 498 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 11: examples of sour deals just like that, where people really 499 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 11: did feel that Frederica Wagner took advantage of them. And again, 500 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 11: does that mean that she was involved with a mass murder. 501 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 11: Of course not, but it does point to character, which 502 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 11: I do think is valuable. 503 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, there was one tenant quoted in the story saying 504 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 4: that Frederica had raised her rent by twenty five percent 505 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 4: following the murders in twenty sixteen, and another described his 506 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 4: rental property as a one room home with an exposed 507 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 4: toilet standing just a few feet from the foot of 508 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 4: his bed. Again, this doesn't prove their guilt, but it 509 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 4: does speak to the type of woman Frederica was, or 510 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 4: at least how the public perceived her at the time. 511 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: I spoke to attorney Mike Gallon about Frederica's land deal contracts. 512 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: When I was npiped and I spoke to some people 513 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: and these are just personal accounts, but saying, you know, 514 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: my family rented land and did it for years and 515 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: years and years and then had it pulled out, which 516 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: I mean, the court seems to. 517 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 7: Back that up. 518 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 12: But yeah, land contracts are tough, and you know, for 519 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 12: the person who is you know, not the owner of 520 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 12: the property, but the person trying to buy it, there 521 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 12: are a lot of pitfalls with it, and someone smart, 522 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 12: which apparently Frederica was, they can take advantage of people 523 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 12: in a land contract situation. 524 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: Frederica also runs a nonprofit called Crystal Springs, a group 525 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: home that provides housing and rehabilitation services to developmentally disabled adults. 526 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: And according to some when her son Billy married Angela Nucombe, 527 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: who we now know as Angela Wagner, Frederica wasn't happy 528 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: about it. Christina Howard told us that the relationship between 529 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner and her daughter in law always seemed contentious. 530 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 14: She never really had much to do with Angela unless 531 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 14: it come to Billy and grown up by her Freddie 532 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 14: call Angela like an evil woman or Tom or two 533 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 14: like a nasty woman. One time, Angela tried to keep 534 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 14: Freddie from seeing her grandkids George and Jake because they 535 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 14: was talking about moving away and all this. And I 536 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 14: never heard Freddy say that she hated anybody, but she said, 537 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 14: you know, like, oh, I really dislike this woman. She's 538 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 14: just a nasty woman. 539 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: Perhaps Frederica Wagner has reason to be suspicious of Angela. 540 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: Christina Howard gave Stephanie her thoughts on Angela Wagner. 541 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 14: Angela, she does have a little bit of a shady 542 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 14: forsad tour, Like you feel like there's more tour than 543 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 14: Mintsi I and stuff. Like on the outside she's all 544 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 14: happy thoughts with anybody and everything else. But you just 545 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 14: get a vibe from her, you know that there's more 546 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 14: to it. 547 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: It turns out that this seemingly devoted, hard working mother 548 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: had a bit of a checkered past. In two thousand 549 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: and one, Angela Wagner, along with Billy Wagner, we're charged 550 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: with improperly handling a firearm, and in twenty twelve they 551 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: were both charged with receiving stolen property, which is a 552 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: fifth grade felony. Jody Barr put the Wagner family's criminal 553 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: history into context for us. 554 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: You're looking at and properly handling a firearm charges. When 555 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: you look at those two charges and even the details 556 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: that were reported to support those charges, I'm back to 557 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: where I was in the rest of the Wagner's background 558 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 2: when you look at this as a whole, across the 559 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: course of their lives. The charges of improperly handling a firearm, 560 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: I mean, those charges came fifteen years before these murders. 561 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: It was an alleged road rage. You know, there was 562 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: a gun pulled out, but the charges are dismissed. No 563 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: one got hurt. I mean that is something that I 564 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: see multiple times a week, alleged police reports. The charge 565 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: of receiving still in property came four years before these murders. 566 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: When you look at the criminal record, nothing in this 567 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: says to me that you've got murderers in the hills 568 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: of Pike County, Ohio. I mean, this could be your 569 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: neighbor now door with these charges. 570 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: Here again is Frederica's niece Deray, reading a news article 571 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: about her aunt's involvement in the Rodent murders. 572 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 6: So let me summarize it for you. On November thirteenth, 573 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 6: twenty eighteen, the Ohio Governor elect Mike d Wine held 574 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 6: an internationally broadcast news conference and announced the arrest of 575 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 6: Frederica Wagner and several of her family members. Governor d 576 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 6: Wine accused Frederica's family members of the Rodents homicides, and 577 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 6: he specifically accused Frederica of masterminding the Kava Rock. When 578 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 6: I heard that, I wanted to call him up and 579 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 6: tell him that there was no way and that someday 580 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 6: you will have to apologize to my aunt. 581 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 10: I do not know who came up with that theory 582 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 10: and tried to put it out there, but that is 583 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 10: someone with an evil mind. I think that that it's 584 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 10: that it's the devil trying trying to test us, because 585 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 10: there's no way possible that Frederica could ever. 586 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 7: Do something like that. 587 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 10: Ever, she is not that kind of person. She carries 588 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 10: the light of Jesus with her everywhere she goes, and 589 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 10: I am, I am, I am convicted on that there's 590 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 10: no way she would have ever done something like that. 591 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: Ever, the idea that the entire Wagner family allegedly conspired 592 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: to kill the Rodents and cold blood still baffles Jodie 593 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: Barr to this day. 594 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 7: Now. 595 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: I think that is the common theme of this entire 596 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: story about Pike County and about this rodent massacre, is 597 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: it seems just too far fetched now when you try 598 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: to connect the dots through the histories of you know, 599 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: how the Wagners conducted their business, how they live their lives. 600 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: I don't know that I have seen any report, any 601 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: fact brought out about the Wagoners that would say, Yep, 602 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: there you go, mass murderers. I think that is the 603 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: draw that continues to keep people interested in this story, 604 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: is that you would have never seen any of this coming. 605 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: I don't know what a family capable of a mass 606 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: murder would look like or how they would conduct her business. 607 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: But this was out of nowhere. It's still just hard 608 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: to believe. 609 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: On June twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, Frederica Wagner headed into 610 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: a Pike County courtroom for a pre trial hearing, with 611 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: Frederica sitting in the defendant's chair. There was a stunning 612 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: courtroom revelation. 613 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 6: Charges against the grandmother connected to the road and family 614 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 6: massacre have been dismissed. 615 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 14: It was dismissed because I was innocent. 616 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 10: They had no evidence against me. 617 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: Well, grandmother Frederica Wagner might be out of the woods. 618 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: The rest of her family await their day in court, 619 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: where a stunning number of truths promised to be exposed. 620 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 12: For the truth, I believe that as it applies to 621 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 12: this case, the mystery will be solved. The truth will 622 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 12: eventually be discovered. 623 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 14: Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sophia Pavey. Straight up. 624 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 14: Tolderisay presenting with papers, do not sign them because they 625 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 14: will sure you over. 626 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 2: You've got to wonder who is this informant, because if 627 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 2: it's a member of the Wager family, I think that's 628 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: a twist no one saw coming. 629 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: More on that next week. Reach out to us on 630 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: our social media outlets with questions. We're on Instagram, Facebook, 631 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: and Twitter at pichon Massacre. We look forward to answering 632 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: your questions and upcoming bonus episodes. Pikedon Massacre is executive 633 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leidecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 634 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by 635 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The piked In Massacre is 636 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 637 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 638 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.