1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

2
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,959
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music feuds, beefs,

3
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 1: and long swimming resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm

4
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 1: Jordan's and we have a very highly requested rivalry today,

5
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,800
Speaker 1: which is funny because it's one of the tamer feuds

6
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,759
Speaker 1: really when you think about it. You know, there are

7
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,639
Speaker 1: some feuds where blood is shed, lawsuits are filed, and

8
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 1: teenage daughters are mentioned in really ungallant ways, But this

9
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,559
Speaker 1: is not one of those feuds. I would argue this

10
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,279
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most passive feuds we ever

11
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: have done. What do you thank Stephen? Yeah, this was

12
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 1: a big one for me growing up, although I feel

13
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: like it might be difficult to explain to future generations.

14
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,599
Speaker 1: By the way, we're talking about Smashing Pumpkins versus Pavement,

15
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: a battle of nineties indie rock versus nineties alternative rock,

16
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,600
Speaker 1: which I feel like if you're under the age of thirty,

17
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: you would just use those terms interchangeably. Like it's hard

18
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 1: to understand like why these bands were even eating, because

19
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,240
Speaker 1: I feel like if you like one of these bands now,

20
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 1: you probably like the other one. But back in the nineties,

21
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: there was this idea of selling out Jordan's where you

22
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 1: didn't want to be a sellout. You wanted to be

23
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 1: someone who didn't sell out. And this caused a lot

24
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 1: of consternation between different bands back then. And you could

25
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 1: say that this rivalry signifies that debate better than any other.

26
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,840
Speaker 1: Without further ado, let's dive into this mess. It all

27
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,120
Speaker 1: starts with William Patrick Corrigan Jr. And you know, if

28
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,480
Speaker 1: Abe Frohman is the sausage King of Chicago, then Billy

29
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 1: Corgan is the resentment King of Chicago. Yes, he's a

30
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,479
Speaker 1: resentment sausage. He's just he's one of the biggest try

31
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 1: hards in rock, which is you know, I say that

32
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: like it's a bad thing, and it's not. It's actually

33
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 1: something that really endears him to me. And he's resentful

34
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: and he's got his reasons. He's resentful because it's a

35
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: strange dad who's a really talented musician. He played with

36
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,600
Speaker 1: bands like Rufus and I think he was offered Ted

37
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 1: Nugent Spot and the Amboy Dukes. Um really talented guy.

38
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 1: He never gave young Billy at the time of day

39
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: as a kid, never really fostered his his musical talent

40
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: and encouraged him in the way that he could have.

41
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,919
Speaker 1: So he's usually full of that bad dads were bad

42
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: dads were endemic to nineties rock. They existed everywhere in nineties.

43
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: If you had a bad dad, you could get a

44
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,520
Speaker 1: record deal in the nineteen nineties. That's how That's how

45
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 1: many bad dads there were, and they never really thought

46
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,240
Speaker 1: of that. You're right. I mean, he's resentful of his dad.

47
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 1: That's that's that's the bed rock. He's resentful of all

48
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: the coastal bands that he thinks looks down on him

49
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 1: because he's from the Midwest, from Chicago. He resents sort

50
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 1: of the good looking rock gods like Chris Cornell and

51
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,360
Speaker 1: Eddie Vetter, and even the sort of complex relationship with

52
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 1: the late Kurt Cobain, who he sings in Heavy Metal Machine.

53
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,079
Speaker 1: If I were dead with my record cell, I always

54
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 1: thought he was kind of this weird little dance with

55
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 1: with sort of a ghost of Kurt. And then he

56
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 1: has more active Fuge two with Steve Albini and Kim Gordon,

57
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 1: but for our intensive purposes in this episode, he resents

58
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,799
Speaker 1: the effortless California cool of Stephen Malcolmus. And the blend

59
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 1: of not only critical acclaim but underground cred he can

60
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 1: enjoy as a member of Pavement. And for Billy, this

61
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,399
Speaker 1: just takes him right back to being the young cool

62
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,240
Speaker 1: kid in high school and he's in his room learning

63
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,120
Speaker 1: Black Sabbath riffs. It's it's really hard on him. And

64
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,080
Speaker 1: that's just I think the tragedy of Billy's career incredibly

65
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: successful career, I might add, because it's like an Esop's fable.

66
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 1: Here's somebody who wants so badly to just be accepted

67
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 1: that he resolves to make the greatest rock album ever made.

68
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna make the most beautiful melodies ever in

69
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 1: hopes that it will make people like me, they'll see me.

70
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: I'll work so hard on this thing is gonna be great,

71
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 1: will make people happy and love me. And it's a

72
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 1: rational you know, you're setting so off for a disappointment

73
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 1: if you ever have a goal like that, if ever

74
00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,520
Speaker 1: approach anything like that. But he succeeds several times over

75
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 1: with Siamese dream melancholy, infinite sadness, and instead of winning

76
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 1: the acceptance that he craves, his just sort of overblown

77
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,120
Speaker 1: earnestness and the scope of his ambition makes him this

78
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: object of like mockery and scorn by all the sort

79
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 1: of like hip elite and all these people that he

80
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,120
Speaker 1: thinks are cooler than him. Well, yeah, and that's the

81
00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 1: thing with Billy Corgan. There's always this hip elite, the

82
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: shadowy cabal of cool people who is conspiring against him.

83
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 1: And you know, he used the word tragedy of his

84
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 1: career before, and I think it is a tragedy in

85
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: the sense of like not being able to appreciate what

86
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,919
Speaker 1: you have. Because by any other rubric, Billy Corgan is

87
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: one of the most successful rock stars of the last

88
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 1: thirty years. He's written songs that have been on the radio,

89
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: that were big hits, that were big MTV hits. He

90
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 1: has sold millions of records, He's played sold out tours

91
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 1: and arenas all around the world. It's the career that

92
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 1: most musicians aspire to and will never achieve. And yet

93
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: there's this constant sense of grievance that he has that

94
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,279
Speaker 1: people aren't respecting him enough, that he's not getting uh

95
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: the acclaim from the tastemakers that he feels that he deserves.

96
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 1: And as you watch his career unfold, you can see

97
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 1: that this perspective starts to extend beyond just how he

98
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: looks at the music world. It actually takes on the

99
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: predominant view of how he sees everything. And he ends

100
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 1: up making this journey from you know, talking about how

101
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, Kim Gordon doesn't respect me enough in the

102
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,920
Speaker 1: pages of Spin and like the early nineties to the

103
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: early two thousand tens where he's actually going on going

104
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 1: on Alex Jones to complain about how the media is

105
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: controlling people's minds and like you know, castrating men and

106
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 1: all the sort of zany wacky things that you hear

107
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,280
Speaker 1: Alex Jones say, and Billy Corgan is shaking his head

108
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,679
Speaker 1: in agreement with him. And it really shows like how

109
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,039
Speaker 1: when you have this worldview that everyone is against me

110
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 1: all the time, it can curdle into stuff that's actually harmful,

111
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, like where you're not just talking about payment anymore.

112
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 1: Now you're talking about like things that actually matter. Uh.

113
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 1: And that's been Billy Corgan's trajectory over the past years.

114
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 1: A lot of ways. He reminds me of another Billy,

115
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 1: Billy Joel. He someone with a huge amount of talent.

116
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,279
Speaker 1: He wants to make great art that's accessible and enjoyable

117
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,839
Speaker 1: to most people. But he thinks he's just like being

118
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,480
Speaker 1: penalized for having these populist aims by cultural commentators who

119
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: thinks that these efforts are you know, shallow or even

120
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,359
Speaker 1: on some level like evil, evil sell out kind of

121
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: things that disqualify him from serious critical consideration. Which you know,

122
00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,279
Speaker 1: how much of that is true and how much of

123
00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 1: it is not is up for debate. But I think

124
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: the core of his problem is he is his own

125
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,760
Speaker 1: image problem. The amount that he kind of complains and

126
00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,880
Speaker 1: has open up about his his you know, his grievances

127
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: about what he credit that he's not given, I think

128
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 1: is something that kind of makes him unpleasant, ends up

129
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 1: bringing more of that on himself. Right, And you know

130
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 1: the word that you use before, I think is very telling,

131
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 1: like penalize, you know, like that is totally the world

132
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,479
Speaker 1: view of someone like Billy Corgan, that I am being

133
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: punished for reaching so many people that like, I write

134
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: songs that millions of people like, and now I can't

135
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,560
Speaker 1: get any any respect for it, when again, in reality,

136
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: he's not being penalized, he's actually being richly rewarded for

137
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,720
Speaker 1: being a populist rocker. And the fact of the matter

138
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,119
Speaker 1: is is that when you get to that level of being,

139
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, as famous as Billy Corgan was, certainly in

140
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 1: the nineties, you're gonna have some people who don't like you.

141
00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just part of reality. And you know, yeah,

142
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 1: the cost of being adored by millions of people is

143
00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 1: that there will be some very loud, vocal critics who

144
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 1: can't stand you, and can't stand you in part because

145
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,880
Speaker 1: you're everywhere your your ubiquity itself becomes annoying to a

146
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: lot of people. Um. I also think too, like with

147
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: with Corrigan, his midwesternness to me is so fascinating and

148
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,120
Speaker 1: I think it has a lot to do with how

149
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: he sees the world. And it's really I think the

150
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: thing that I most relate to with Billy Corgan. I

151
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,120
Speaker 1: think another reason why I think he's so interesting is

152
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,720
Speaker 1: that I do, um see myself somewhat in in how

153
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: he views the world. And I think it has to

154
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,840
Speaker 1: do with being from the Midwest and having that chip

155
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: on your shoulder that you have when you grow up

156
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 1: and fly over country and you're told in the media

157
00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 1: that you're not as hip or cool or into it

158
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 1: as people on the coast and why are they getting

159
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: all the attention and why aren't we getting enough attention?

160
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 1: And that's just such an endemic, uh feeling I think

161
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,920
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, and Billy Corgan just just displays that

162
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,640
Speaker 1: through and through. I'll say that, you know, I'll admit

163
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: to relating to Billy Corgan, but I feel like it's

164
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 1: like the worst parts of myself, and i feel like

165
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,840
Speaker 1: I look at Billy Corgan and I'm like, well, if

166
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 1: I actually believe that stuff too much, like I could

167
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 1: end up like that. So he's like a cautionary tail

168
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,120
Speaker 1: in a way. But I mean I feel like, I mean,

169
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 1: you're not from the Midwest, but I feel like you

170
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: also kind of relate to Billy Corgan in a way, right, Oh, definitely,

171
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: the whole try hard thing again, it's something that makes

172
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 1: me really love him because I feel the same way.

173
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna do this thing. I'm gonna work really

174
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: hard on. It's gonna make people happy and they're gonna

175
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,320
Speaker 1: like me, that's all. It's they're gonna like me and

176
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. And then whenever you approach anything

177
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 1: from that perspective, you're set himself up for disappointment, and

178
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, when you don't get the reaction you crave,

179
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: which you know, by the way, is completely unrealistic and

180
00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: will never happen, then you just get resentful as all hell,

181
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,959
Speaker 1: and like people can sense that too, and yeah, it's

182
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,559
Speaker 1: just this awful cycle. So no, I feel bad for

183
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 1: the amount of effort that he that he puts out

184
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 1: and that he feels just on that emotional level, he's

185
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,199
Speaker 1: not rewarded in that way, and all he wants is

186
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 1: to be liked, and he wants to make a good

187
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 1: thing and work really hard on the good thing. And

188
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,359
Speaker 1: in the nineties, you know when sort of being disaffected

189
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 1: and aloof is sort of the pinnacle cool, trying really

190
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 1: really hard is not cool, and I I feel I

191
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 1: feel for that. I relate to that. Now you'll notice

192
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: that we haven't really talked about Stephen Milkmus at all

193
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,360
Speaker 1: so far in this episode, and I mean, and I

194
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 1: think that's because it's fair to say that this ravelry,

195
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 1: while it's started, I guess because of what Stephen Malkmus did,

196
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 1: it really is only about Billy Corgan, right, I mean,

197
00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: because basically, you know, Pavement, they put out this song

198
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,640
Speaker 1: range Life in four and then Billy Corgan just ends

199
00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 1: up reacting to it for like the next twenty five years, right,

200
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 1: and Malcolm's is basically like, I I didn't need it

201
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 1: to be that big of a deal, you know, I mean, yeah,

202
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: I feel like the name of this episode could have

203
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 1: really been like Billy Corgan versus the mean voices in

204
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan's head. You know, he's just like shadow boxing

205
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,839
Speaker 1: this one line from a Pavement song that could kind

206
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: of sort of maybe be construed as like a slight

207
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,160
Speaker 1: dig from a guy who kind of has a history

208
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,959
Speaker 1: of dishing out slight digs, you know what I mean.

209
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 1: One of my favorite Malcolm's songs is The Unseen Power

210
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 1: of the Picket Fence, which he's talking about R E.

211
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 1: M is love for r EM, and he mentions not once,

212
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 1: but twice the song on their album that he likes

213
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,959
Speaker 1: the least time after time. So it's feeling he's writing

214
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,199
Speaker 1: a song about a band that he professes to love

215
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,079
Speaker 1: and he's talking about the song that he likes least

216
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,960
Speaker 1: from them. That just kind of lets you know, you know,

217
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 1: he's kind of a reverend. Like it's not it's not

218
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,520
Speaker 1: a big deal, but for Billy it's a very big deal.

219
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 1: But I yeah, I don't think Malcolmus in n or

220
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: now cared about it a fraction as much as Billy

221
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,080
Speaker 1: Corgan ever did. And while that's all true, I think

222
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 1: what makes this such an interesting rivalry to me, and

223
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 1: I wrote about this revelry in my book Your Favorite

224
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 1: Band Is Killing Me. So I've been thinking about this

225
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: for a long time, is that even though Stevien Malcolmus

226
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: isn't really an active participant, he is a really interesting

227
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: contrast to Billy Corgan because you know, as you've said,

228
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: he's this try hard, very ambitious, grandiose type person. He's

229
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 1: from the Midwest. There's an insecurity that's inherent in him. Uh.

230
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,320
Speaker 1: He tends to see people out to get him because

231
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,040
Speaker 1: of that. And then you have someone like Malcolmus, who

232
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 1: is you know, he was born in Santa Monica, California.

233
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 1: He has a real West Coast vibe to him. There's

234
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 1: an easy goingness to him. He's a really good looking guy.

235
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,959
Speaker 1: He's a guy that I actually think does work really hard,

236
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 1: but because of his casual demeanor, he has this slacker image,

237
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 1: like it's he has the image of being someone who

238
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 1: writes a song falling out of bed in the morning,

239
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 1: you know, and like records it in five minutes and

240
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: it ends up sounding great and the critics love it.

241
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: And you could see how that sort of artist would

242
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 1: drive Billy Corgan mad because he's trying so much harder

243
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,079
Speaker 1: and he's showing you how much harder he's working, and

244
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,600
Speaker 1: he's not getting that specific kind of gratification from people.

245
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 1: So just in terms of the personality ties, I think

246
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,959
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting conversation to have. But we should

247
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 1: talk about range life because it is the inciting incident

248
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 1: in this rivalry. And I referenced it earlier, and it's

249
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,719
Speaker 1: a song, like I said, it came out on the

250
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 1: album Crooked Rain. Crooked Rain, which was the second Pavement record,

251
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 1: and it was really the first one that had like

252
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:49,200
Speaker 1: a mainstream impact. And the line about spanshing pumpkins in

253
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: the song was actually improvised in the studio or it

254
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,079
Speaker 1: was come up like pretty much at the last minute, um,

255
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,199
Speaker 1: and it was intended just to make the other guys

256
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 1: in the band laugh, which it did. It like they

257
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 1: laughed hysterically at this line. And what he sings is

258
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 1: out on tour with the Smashing pumpkins, nature kids. They

259
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,800
Speaker 1: don't have no function. I don't understand what they mean,

260
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 1: and I could really give a fuck. Okay, so he

261
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 1: calls them nature kids. He implies that you know, they're

262
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,600
Speaker 1: this empty band and he doesn't really care about him.

263
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: And then there's another reference to all rock huge band

264
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 1: of the time, Stone Temple Pilots, and I guess this

265
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 1: is a disk, but I always thought it was actually

266
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,760
Speaker 1: kind of a cool phrase. He calls them elegant Bachelor's, Like,

267
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: would you be insulted? Not be mad at that? Yeah,

268
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 1: I was gonna say I wouldn't be insulted if someone

269
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: called be an elegant bachelor. I mean, it's definitely kind

270
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 1: of snarky, but I don't know if there's a beauty

271
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: to it too that I think actually sounds pretty cool.

272
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 1: You call someone an elegant anything, and it's like, I

273
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: don't know, it just sounds so much more poetic. And

274
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 1: I also think it's a much better name, like a

275
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,800
Speaker 1: better band name than Stone Temple Pilots too, like the

276
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 1: again Bachelor's right, absolutely, they they should have like changed

277
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 1: the name right after that song. Um, but anyway, they

278
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 1: put this line in the song and I think Malcolm's

279
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 1: at the time felt a little bit of worry about it.

280
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,920
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't want to start anything. Maybe we

281
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't keep this in the song, but he was persuaded

282
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: against that. They put the song out, and uh, you know,

283
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 1: I think I think their thought at the time was

284
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 1: that I'm sure they just assumed that Billy Corgan either

285
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't hear the song or he wouldn't care. But he

286
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 1: did hear the song and he did care a lot. Yeah,

287
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm awful lot. He He was interviewed by David frickear

288
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: after the song came out, and uh, Frick asked them

289
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 1: directly about the song, and Billy chalked it up to jealousy,

290
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, there's always been flak we've

291
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 1: gotten from certain bands, the mud Honeys, the pavements of

292
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,760
Speaker 1: this world. But somehow we cheated our way to the top,

293
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: that we deceived the public to get where we're at.

294
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 1: We have our own level of integrity that we've kept too,

295
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,520
Speaker 1: and we're not going away. So I think it's rooted

296
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 1: in jealousy. And that's kind of where someone is looking

297
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 1: at a picture and saying, this is where I belong

298
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: and I don't understand why I'm not there. Okay, so

299
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 1: that's what what corgan is saying is like these guys,

300
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 1: these guys are just jealous. That's the only reason I'm

301
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 1: taking checks. To man, everyone everyone's everyone's saying we cheated

302
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: our way to get here. But but no, which, by

303
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: the way, I don't I don't think Stephen Malcolm's for

304
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 1: a second wanted to be in Smashing Pumpkins. Like, I

305
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 1: don't think it was jealousy. No, you know, it's like

306
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: he had his band and he just had a totally

307
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 1: different mindset. I don't think he could even imagine being

308
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 1: a band like that. I was gonna say, I always

309
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 1: feel like Malcolm's was very comfortable with his level of fame.

310
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 1: I've never I've never interviewed, and I know you have.

311
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: Did you ever get that impression like it seemed like

312
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: he was very happy with where he was and how

313
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 1: things shook out. Yeah, I mean again, like I can't

314
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 1: claim to have too much knowledge of his inner life,

315
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 1: but he exudes sort of a zen like calm like

316
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 1: when you talk to him, and yeah, I I don't

317
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: get the sense that he like wishes that he was

318
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 1: starring in black and white videos directed by Kevin curse

319
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 1: Lake and you know, playing with like fiece orchestras. You know,

320
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 1: that's that doesn't seem like that was something that he

321
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 1: would have been into. But Billy just he keeps twisting

322
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 1: the knife. And another interview around the same time, he said,

323
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: people don't fall in love to Pavement. They put on

324
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins or Whole or Nirvana because these bands actually

325
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 1: means something to them. That's a diss you know. I

326
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 1: mean the line in uh Arranged Life. Okay, maybe kind of,

327
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 1: but but that's a diss right there. Yeah. Again for

328
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 1: the kids out there, I feel like we have to

329
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 1: take a moment here to try to explain like what's

330
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 1: going on here, because again I feel like, when you

331
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,760
Speaker 1: look back, this seems like the narcissism of small differences,

332
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 1: you know, like the epitome of that, because you have

333
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 1: two bands essentially that are on different levels. Kind of

334
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 1: like Smashing Pumpkins was certainly selling more records than Pavement,

335
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: but it's not like Pavement. It was like playing in

336
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, dive bars for like three people every night.

337
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 1: I mean, they were also on MTV. They were getting

338
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 1: written up in all the big rock magazines. I think

339
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 1: Crooked Rain. Crooked Rains sold like a couple of hundred

340
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 1: thousand records, not as much as Met Siamese Dream or Melancholy,

341
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 1: but still like a good number of records. And you know,

342
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,080
Speaker 1: if they hadn't been at least a little bit famous, like,

343
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 1: no one would have cared about this song. Like the

344
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,679
Speaker 1: fact that Pavement did have some prominence and was of

345
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 1: course a critically adored band, It's what made this revelry possible.

346
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 1: So again, this idea that like Smashing Pumpkins and Pavement

347
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 1: were from totally different worlds, and that somehow Pavement was

348
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: going after Smashing Pumpkins because they weren't successful enough. I

349
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 1: think it made more sense at the time, but now

350
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 1: it just seems kind of weird, especially now when there

351
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 1: aren't even that many rock bands as popular as Pavement,

352
00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of bands that would love to

353
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,760
Speaker 1: sell as many records as Pavement did. In I mean,

354
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: you're younger than me, Jordan, you were like a fetus.

355
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 1: I think when this whole thing was happening, is this

356
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,119
Speaker 1: strange for you at all? Like, does this make sense

357
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: that these bands were feuding? It's strange to me now

358
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 1: because I I just because I know how the story

359
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,679
Speaker 1: kind of ended and where both bands ended up, and

360
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 1: it does seem like two completely different stratospheres. And I'm

361
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: just wondering if almost at the time, when it seemed like,

362
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, maybe Pavement were actually considered a sales threatened

363
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: could eclip smashing pumpkins like that? Maybe I could imagine,

364
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, it just feels like fighting over abstract ideals

365
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: that don't really inhibit the enjoyment of any of these songs.

366
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 1: Like I it's just such a classic example of like

367
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 1: fans can like both, you know, it's not like I

368
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,360
Speaker 1: a fan seeing themselves as one or the other necessarily

369
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 1: in your your Beatles and stones, your instincts versus back

370
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 1: Street Boys kind of thing. It just feels like, again,

371
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 1: just one guy who has a problem with one guy

372
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 1: who really didn't mean that much harm. Yeah, I don't

373
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: think that Pavement was perceived, like by Smashing Pumpkins, as

374
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: like a sales thread. I actually think it's the opposite.

375
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: I think at that time, you know, the the indie

376
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 1: politics of the nineties were that if you sold fewer

377
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 1: records in a way, you were more legitimate, and that

378
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: being the band that sold millions of records and was

379
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: embraced by the mainstream, it was almost like a liability

380
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 1: in terms of your credibility. So I think that is

381
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 1: the thing that it was just assumed at the time

382
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: when they looked at the at these two bands, and

383
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 1: it was like part of just the general understanding of

384
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 1: like why they would be in conflict. That's been totally

385
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: lost now, like that context doesn't exist at all, Like

386
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 1: people don't think that way. So I think it just

387
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: makes it stranger maybe in retrospect than it was at

388
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 1: the time. Like at the time, it seemed logical that

389
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,399
Speaker 1: a band like Pavement would would make fun of Smashing Pumpkins. Um.

390
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: But you know, for for Malcolmus, you know, he's been

391
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 1: asked about this so many times over the years by

392
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,640
Speaker 1: journalists and he's basically has said the same thing over

393
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,639
Speaker 1: an old or where he you know, talked about how

394
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: it was just something that he did spur the moment

395
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: to make his friends in the band laugh, and that

396
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily meant to be an attack on Smashing

397
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: Pumpkins or even a critique. He's even said that he

398
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 1: liked some Smashing Pumpkins songs. It was just that this

399
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: was the band that was on all the magazine covers,

400
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: and if you were going to make a joke about

401
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: a band, they were the obvious punchline, you know. And

402
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't even about their quality. It was more about

403
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 1: their their ubiquity at the time. And you know, to me,

404
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: the annalogy I would make is like range life is

405
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: almost like you're hanging out with your friends and saying

406
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: snarky things at the person on the TV screen, and

407
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: you're doing it to make your friends laugh, and and

408
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: you don't think the person on the TV screen is

409
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: actually going to hear you. You're just doing it because

410
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,439
Speaker 1: it's fun and he's on TV. And when someone has

411
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: a lot of power, they're just an easy target. Um.

412
00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: But it wasn't anything personal. Uh. But of course leading

413
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 1: to later on too when he did live versions of

414
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: the song didn't substitute like the Spice Girls and Connon

415
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 1: Crows in there for Smashing Pumpkins, like just the sort

416
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: of show like, no, this is a placeholder for whoever

417
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 1: is big at this moment right exactly, which, by the way,

418
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: I wish he would have like talked about County Crows

419
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: in the Originals song that would have been amazing. You

420
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 1: could have gotten some good I love County Crows, but

421
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: you could get some good digs in on Adam Derrit's

422
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure, Um but yeah, I mean I interviewed Stephen

423
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: Malkomis about this specifically many years ago, and he essentially said, like,

424
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, especially Pumpkins one, like they were really successful.

425
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: They were more successful than we were. It's like, I

426
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 1: don't know why he cared so much. You know why.

427
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 1: You know, You've got everything that you would have wanted,

428
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, So what does it matter what we say?

429
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: But Billy Corgan internalized this song almost immediately, I feel like,

430
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: and it has caused him to lash out at Pavement

431
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: for decades, right, I mean the fallout was kind of immediate. Um.

432
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: Pavement were due to tour with Lollapaluza for but supposedly

433
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins, who are the headliners, threatened to cancel their

434
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 1: dates and pull out if payment performed, and so payment

435
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: were kicked off the tour. Now, Corrigan has denied this

436
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: up and down for decades. Now, I don't know, I

437
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: personally tend to believe it. What do you think I mean, yeah,

438
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: I would tend to believe it. It seems like his

439
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: fingerprints were all over it, and certainly from Lalla loses perspective.

440
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: If you had to book one of those bands, you

441
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: would want to have Smashing Pumpkins because they would have

442
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: been a bigger draw, so you would imagine that they

443
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: had some power in that. Um. It's just funny to

444
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: me though, because like the band that ended up getting

445
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: booked instead of Pavement was guided by voices who were

446
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: on the same record label as Pavement, Matador and UM.

447
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: I didn't interview recently with Topen Sprout. The guitars have

448
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: guided by voices, and he was trying to remember, like

449
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: the name of the person that got by voices, got

450
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 1: into a conflict with on a lot of pollutes a

451
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: tour and it couldn't remember the person's name. He's like, yeah,

452
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: that tall guy from Chicago, what was his name? And

453
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: I like Billy Corgan and he's like, yeah, of course.

454
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: And he told me that, like, Billy Corgan liked to

455
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: play basketball backstage at Lallapalooza and Robert Pollard and Jim

456
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: Pollard played him one day and they got really aggressive.

457
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: There's a lot of trash talking, and Billy Corgan left

458
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: because he lost. He stormed off and apparently he had

459
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: his own net that he carried around, and he took

460
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: the net off the rim and he stormed off to

461
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 1: his tour bus. And Tobin Sprout told me that later

462
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: he found the net, like Billy Corgan's net, and he

463
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: like threw it like into a field or something. So

464
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, like you get rid of one

465
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: snarky indie rock band and then there comes another snarky

466
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: indie rock band to mess with you. You know, it's

467
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: like like Billy Corgan just can't win. You feel bad.

468
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: I mean, there are just it seems like this is

469
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: just like these like hip indie rock bands just lining

470
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: up the torture. This guy who's just like fumbling with

471
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 1: the net, who brings their own net. First of all,

472
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: I've never even heard of that, no man. I mean

473
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: I feel a little bad for him. I don't feel

474
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: that bad for him. I feel like he brings it

475
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: on himself, and he's gonna keep bringing on himself With

476
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: Malcolm's I mean he keeps talking about it through the years, right,

477
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: I mean, Malcolm's payment broke up at ninety nine, Smashing

478
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 1: Pumpkins split for a bit in two thousand, got back

479
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: together and oh six, And you think at this stage

480
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: Billy would be like, you know, I want my band

481
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: is alive and survival Pavement at the Pavement. But Malcolm's

482
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: even said an interview I think it was in two

483
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: thousand eight with Blender. Yeah, Billy's over it. It's fine,

484
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: but um, but he was very much not over it.

485
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: He uh the Union show, No no, This is the

486
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: part of the rest of development episode when the narrator said,

487
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: but Billy hadn't gotten over it. Pavement reunited in in

488
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: and Billy finds out they're going to be sharing a

489
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: bill at a festival in Brazil, and and and he's outraged.

490
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: He posts this irate message to Twitter that, like the

491
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: reading full, just found out Smashing pump Kins is playing

492
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: with Pavement in Brazil. It's going to be one of

493
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 1: those New Orleans type funerals. I say that because they

494
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: represent the death of the alternative dream and we follow

495
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: the affirmation of life part Funny how those who pointed

496
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: the big finger of sellout are the biggest defenders now, yawn,

497
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: they have no love. By the way, we'll be the

498
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: band up there playing new songs because we have the

499
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: love xx. Now. I always found this is a really

500
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 1: interesting take for a guy who just recorded a song

501
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: with Jessica Simpson for a v H one reality show.

502
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: That's right, Well, because he did that, He did that

503
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: because he has the love. You know, he did that

504
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: for love, um and not for anything else. I should

505
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: they didn't pay him at all for that. Yeah, I

506
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: mean what I think it is hilarious is it is

507
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: that not even Billy Corgan in two understood the difference

508
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: between alternative rock and indie rock. That even uh, a

509
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: general of the alternative versus indie rock wars of the nineties,

510
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, could no longer discern the difference between these bands.

511
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: He just sort of absorbed Pavement into alternative rock world

512
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: twenty years later. Uh, it just again underscores the meaningless

513
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: how meaningless like a lot of this was you know,

514
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: after the fact. And his argument kind of doesn't make

515
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: sense because two years later he's still fuming about this,

516
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: and he basically calls out Pavement and a bunch of

517
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: interviews for being sellouts for reuniting on like a nostalgia tour,

518
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: and he thinks that, you know, these grunge bands need

519
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: to step up and take on the social issues of

520
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: the day, and they're not. They're just making a cash

521
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: grab playing the old songs on the nostalgia circuit, which

522
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. He reunited his own band and kind

523
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: of did the same thing. I mean, I guess he

524
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: put out new albums. I suppose, but yeah, I I

525
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: think he's He's sense of self importance is kind of

526
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: off the charts in this saying that, you know, grunge

527
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: needs to come and and tackle, you know, what's wrong

528
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: the tea partiers or whatever is wrong with the society's

529
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: ills at this point. Yeah, Billy, I love you, but

530
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: like the kids were not looking for, you know, filter

531
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: to come back and write protest songs and in the

532
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: two thousand Tents, you know, like that was not what

533
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: the world was looking for. What the world was looking

534
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: for from those bands at that time were for you

535
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: to play the hits like that's what you were, That's

536
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: what they want you were, you know. And again this

537
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: kind of shows like how all bands that seem like

538
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: their polar opposites eventually end up in the same place,

539
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: and like, you know, you could have Smashing Pumpkins and

540
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: Pavement seemingly represent different ideals and different music scenes for

541
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: people at the time. Twenty years later, they're both essentially

542
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: nostalgia acts. You know, they're on they're doing reunion tours,

543
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: and you know, old people like me are coming out

544
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: to go see them. And I saw both of these

545
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: reunion tours. I saw the reunion tour for Pavement in

546
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, and I saw the Smashing Pumpkins

547
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: reunion tour, which was a debacle in a lot of ways,

548
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: but musically it was pretty good. I mean, they sounded

549
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: good on those tours. Um you know, people were just

550
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: going out for a good time. You know, they want

551
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: to relive something that they loved when they were younger.

552
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: You know, for me, like I had never off Pavement

553
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: in the nineties, so to see them in two thousand

554
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: ten was was pretty cool. Like to hear those songs

555
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: being played, It's in the same thing with Smashing Pumpkins.

556
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'll due respect to Billy Corgan,

557
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to hear Oceana Deep Cuts, you know,

558
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: I was going to hear Siamese Dream Hits and Melancholie

559
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: The Infinite Sadness hits. Uh, and they delivered for me

560
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: on that on that level, so I appreciated that. But

561
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: again it kind of shows that, like these bands, it

562
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: seems so different at one time, you know, ended up

563
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: in the same place. We're gonna take a quick break

564
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: and get a word from our sponsor before we get

565
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: two more rivals. It's funny to me too that at

566
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: least before their two eighteen reunion, I mean, Billy Corgan

567
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: fronted Smashing Pumpkins were almost the level of like, you know,

568
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: one of those bands from the sixties as like one

569
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: remaining member. He's the sole member of the original Smashing Pumpkins,

570
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: So it kind of that even kind of seems opportunistic

571
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, like those nostalgia bands that

572
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: play like state fairs with like the original basis for

573
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, Dave Clark five or something,

574
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, right exactly, And that two eighteens tour, I mean,

575
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: I feel like people remember it because of Darcy Darcy Retzky,

576
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: who was going to be involved and then wasn't involved,

577
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: and it just turned into this like public meltdown about

578
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, them exchanging, you know, them sharing like their

579
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: private texts with the with the public and you know,

580
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: just showing how dysfunctional this band is and again making

581
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan look like an asshole. I mean, that was

582
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: the that was the end result of that whole thing.

583
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: So even like they're big kind of comeback where it

584
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: was going to be all the original members, like, you know,

585
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: they couldn't pull that off. And Malcolm's came for him

586
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: for that too, right, wasn't he like kind of on

587
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: the sidelines making fun of a whole train wreck that

588
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: it became yeah, like what, yeah, what do you say?

589
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: I mean because he was basically like saying like, look,

590
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, you made fun of us for our reunion

591
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: tour and now you're doing this this tour, basically just

592
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: calling him a hypocrite. Yeah, and the fact that you

593
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: know he wasn't even not was a hypocrite, but he's

594
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: also seemingly screwing Darcy over two. Yeah, it's so funny

595
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: to me that Billy was just so bothered by the

596
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: semi fight from a band who you know, had a

597
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: fraction of the commercial success that he had. You know,

598
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: I think her Crooked Rain got to like a hundred

599
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: and twenty one on Billboard and cut your hair made

600
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: it into the rotation ONMTV, but it's just it's not

601
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: the same. He's a better guitarist, he's writing objectively better songs,

602
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't say objectively. I think that they're both

603
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: great in their own way. But yes, you're right, I

604
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: agree that it's insane that he let this get to

605
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: him as much as it did and didn't just have

606
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: like a sense of humor about it. I have this theory.

607
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I want to see if you get

608
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: holds water. I have this theory that Billy Corgan is

609
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: the Larry David of nineties Indie rock. Okay, the the

610
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: comparison is as follows. I mean, there's obvious similarities in

611
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: the hair department, but beyond that there actions are motivated

612
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: almost entirely out of spite and grudges and insecurity. But

613
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: it pushes them to do like objectively great things. I mean,

614
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: you've got Siamese dream and Melancholy on Billy's side, you

615
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: have Latte Larry's for Larry David. They're they're ruled by

616
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: this rigid code of ethics and conduct that just sort

617
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: of exists in their own mind, and they don't like

618
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: share it. With anyone until there's a transgression made, usually

619
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: a really innocent transgression, at what point the rules just

620
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: stated ad nauseum at a very high volume, and they're

621
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: just braided. And this makes them wildly and popular socially

622
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: and usually very unpleasant to be around, possibly because despite

623
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: their extreme and often really inappropriate overreactions, they still see

624
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: themselves no matter what is the victim, which is infuriating

625
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: when you've reached that level of success. They each have

626
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: these remarkable achievements in their past Seinfeld and Smashing Pumpkins

627
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: that you know you can't write them off entirely no

628
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: matter how irritating they are. And and they both also

629
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: date when men who are way out of the league

630
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: Jessica Simpson and Charlnes. That's my theory. I like that theory.

631
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: I will say that, like Larry David on Curb Your Enthusiasm,

632
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: he's always surrounded by friends like as negative as he is,

633
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people like Larry, and I don't know

634
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: if that's true of Billy, Like I feel like Larry, Uh,

635
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: there's a loveability to his cantankerousness. Like I love Larry David.

636
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: I love how cranky is because when he lashes out

637
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: at people you feel like they deserve it, and he's

638
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: acting in a way that you wish you could act

639
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: if you didn't have the social skills that you have.

640
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: But it's like, yeah, we you you would love to tell,

641
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, the person who's annoying in your life, how

642
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: annoying they are, and and and and to not put

643
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: on sort of the nice cities that were all forced

644
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: to put on, whereas I feel like with Billy Corgan,

645
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: he's not doing that. I feel like he lashes out

646
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: of people, uh that don't deserve it, and it makes

647
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: him less likable. So that would be my one qualm

648
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: with that. Although I like the Cheryl Hines Jessica Simpson parallel.

649
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense um for me. However,

650
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: I feel like the the analogy I always come back

651
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: to is Richard Nixon. I think Billy Corgan is Richard Nixon.

652
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: And I wrote about this a lot and in my

653
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: book because I feel like it's really I think the

654
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: key to understanding who Billy Corgan is. UM. I read

655
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: this great book by Rick Perlstein called nixon Land. It's

656
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: a classic book. I don't know if you've ever read it. Um.

657
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: But he talks in that book about how when Richard

658
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: Nixon was in college, he formed this group called the Authorigonians,

659
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: and it was a group. It was a social group

660
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: for students who couldn't get into the exclusive fraternity on campus,

661
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: which was known as the Franklins. And the ideology behind

662
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: the the author Agonians was that we are the real people,

663
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: were the real kind of assault of the earth students

664
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: at this school, and we're being put down by the

665
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: elites and the Franklins, and we're the style majority. We

666
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: are the silent majority, essentially exactly. So Pearlstein uses this

667
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: anecdote to explain basically Richard Nixon's political career that this

668
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: is something that he went back to time and again,

669
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: that he appealed to people's sense of insecurity and persecution,

670
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: that there was always someone out there doing better than them,

671
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: putting them down. And if only those people didn't exist,

672
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: then I would have a perfect life and I wouldn't

673
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: have any problems. And I feel like Billy Corgan has

674
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: that same worldview I think he has. I think he

675
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: sees himself as someone who comes from good mid Midwestern stock,

676
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 1: that he works his butt off and you know, there's

677
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: a lot of truth in that if you look at

678
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: his output in the nineties, the amount of songs that

679
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: he was writing, like around the time of Melancholeague, which

680
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: is a double album that spawned like a six disc

681
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: box set of East sides. I think there's like fifty

682
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: B sides or so maybe more that he run around

683
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: that time. Just an incredible amount of output and a

684
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: really high batting average at that time. Like a lot

685
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: of those songs are really good. Um, and he's playing

686
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: all the parts for the most part, right, Jimmy's drums

687
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: exactly so, and he's a perfectius in the studio. He's

688
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: a really great guitarist. Um. And yet critics gravitated to Pavement,

689
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: which again, you know you could say had maybe more

690
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: of an exclusive following. It was a more discerning following.

691
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: You know, they weren't as popular, but again, as I

692
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: was saying, because of the indie politics at the time,

693
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: it kind of made them more appealing to people, because

694
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: you know, the people are like smashing pumpkins, you could

695
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: say broadly, you know, like the jocks at school like

696
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: smashing pumpkins. Like everyone likes smashing pumpkins, but only a

697
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: select few people. Well, I guess we'll just call him Franklin's.

698
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: The Franklin's liked pavement, the Authorigonians like smashing pumpkins. And

699
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: to even carry that analogy further, I feel like Malcolm's

700
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: has like some JFK like qualities, you know, because like

701
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: if you think about that, like in eighteen sixty debate

702
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: between Nixon and Kennedy, that historic debate that people always

703
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: give credit for, you know, being a big breakthrough, and

704
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: how politicians are presented on television, you know, JFK looked amazing,

705
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: looked immaculate, and Nixon was like, you know, sweaty, looked

706
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: like he had a shadow, he wasn't wearing any makeup,

707
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: And um, I think Malkmus had that same sort of

708
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: thing where he was good looking, he was charismatic, and

709
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: he didn't have that awkwardness that Billy Corgan has that

710
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: can be off putting. And I'm sure he looked at

711
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: someone like Malkmus or like you said before, like Kurt

712
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: Cobain or Chris Cornow or Eddie Vetter and just was

713
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: mad that it seemed like they weren't working as hard

714
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: as he was. Although again I don't think that's necessarily true.

715
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: I think everyone else was working hard too, they just

716
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: didn't make a point of four grounding. They're hard work,

717
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: you know, in the same way that he did. Like,

718
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, he worked hard, and he made sure that

719
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: you knew it. You know that he was writing all

720
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: the songs and he was playing all the parts, and like,

721
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: I'm the guy, I'm doing everything, and that's a big

722
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: part of his identity. Yeah, I mean, I'm succeeding on

723
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: every level that I should on paper, But they still

724
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: hate me. Why do they hate me? What else can

725
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: I do? What else can I give? I mean, that

726
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: line I think could be said by either one of them,

727
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: Nixon or Billy right exactly. And it's interesting too, because

728
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: when you think that way, you can present yourself as

729
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: an underdog even when you are hugely successful. Like I

730
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: think there was always an underdog element to Nixon, you know,

731
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: because he felt like he was an outsider and he

732
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: didn't have maybe the family connections that someone like JFK had,

733
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: Ivy League stuff stuff, even though like college and California,

734
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: even though he had been vice president, you know, even

735
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: though he had been a politician for many decades before

736
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: he was finally elected president in n UM. I think

737
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: the same thing is true with with with Billy Corgan.

738
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: I mean, like you step back and it's like, in

739
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: no way was he an underdog, you know, really like

740
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: especially Pumpkins was like pretty successful from the beginning, and

741
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: they had a lot of industry support, you know, from

742
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 1: pretty early on UM. But because of people like Malcolmus,

743
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: Corgan could always feel that, well, I'm not getting the

744
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: same kind of respect that he's getting, and in some

745
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,959
Speaker 1: respects that is this is making my career harder. Because

746
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: there was so many other people too that we're also

747
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: taking shots to Billy Corgan at that time, and we

748
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: mentioned Kim Gordon, Steve Albani had that incredible it was

749
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: it was like an open letter, right, he wrote this

750
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: like open letter that recalled Smashing Pumpkins frauds, bullshit, and

751
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: he also called them Mario Speedwagon, right, yes, exactly. Yeah,

752
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: I think Mold called him. I called him like the

753
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: grunge monkeys, which it's funny. I mean it's not really

754
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: true though. I mean I don't think that they were

755
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: like the prefabricated like that. But yeah, I mean I

756
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: think with Corrigan, as he starts to really internalize this

757
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: underdog thing. It coincides like with Mension Pumpkins basically starting

758
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: to go into decline like after Melancholy, and you know,

759
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: they put out a Door in which I think is

760
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: actually like a pretty good record and everyone always yeah,

761
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: I agree, but it didn't have as many hits as

762
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: like the previous records. And also, like the music scene

763
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: was just changing too at that time. That's like when

764
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: new metal was really starting to come in, and really

765
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: like none of the you know, big alternative rock bands

766
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: of the early nineties were really able to do well

767
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: in that era. So like at that point, not only

768
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: is Billy Corgan feeling like he's not getting the respect

769
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: he deserves now, he's not even having the same amount

770
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: of success, right and it's just, you know, it's heartbreaking.

771
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: He had this incredible line that really just sort of

772
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: lays it all out there. I said, I wish from

773
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: day one people would have looked at me and said,

774
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: you're all right, come on, joined the team. But it's

775
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: never been that way with me. I don't know why.

776
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm a dick it shows, I don't know, but

777
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: they did ask him to join the team. I mean again,

778
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's just interesting, like how success

779
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: ends up getting defined. I guess. I mean, I think

780
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: it is true that a lot of other rock stars

781
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: at the time didn't like him, and they made it

782
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: clear that they didn't like him. But at the same time, again,

783
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: it's just sort of amazing how the worldview ends up

784
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: making what you think is true actually true. You know,

785
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: like if he hadn't thought of himself as this sort

786
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: of put upon outsider, would he have ended up as

787
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: a put upon outsider? You know, it is the question

788
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: with him, I think. And it's funny too how in

789
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: a lot of interviews he goes out of his way

790
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: to sort of credit artists that were hugely successful commercially

791
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: but just we're absolutely ravaged by the critics at the

792
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: height of their fan bands like Queen Black, Sabbath, Led Zeppelin,

793
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: and you know, I sees himself as one of them.

794
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: I always felt, Yeah, there's that. Uh, he's actually like

795
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: one of the best people that's interviewed in the Rush

796
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: documentary Beyond the Lighted Stage, and uh, in the way

797
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: that he talks about how Rush didn't get the critical

798
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: appreciation that he felt that he deserved, and uh, you know,

799
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: he says like you know, they were really a people's band.

800
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: The great hole in their careers that they've never been

801
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: truly accepted by the intelligentsia. What was it? They just

802
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: didn't fit in a neat box. And I just felt

803
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: like every quote in that movie that's ostensibly about Rush

804
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: from Billy Corgan is actually about himself. To me, that's

805
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: a quote about himself. And I think this is because

806
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: he has a hard time maybe looking beyond his own grievances,

807
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: his own like way of like how he feels that

808
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: the world has not treated him well. Um. What I

809
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: think it's funny too, is that Stephen malkomis also really

810
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: likes Rush, Like I don't know if you know that

811
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: he's talked about that in interviews about how much he's

812
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: talked about Rush. He's talked a lot about like about

813
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: classic rock bands. I remember I saw an interview like

814
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: where he talked about how much he liked the band Chicago,

815
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: especially like their earlier records, And it just kind of incredible.

816
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: It just goes to show that, like, you know, these

817
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: are like two middle aged guys that like we're you know,

818
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: part of Generation X, and I think probably liked a

819
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: lot of the same music, and if they could actually

820
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: get together or if they didn't have any of his baggage.

821
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: I just wonder, like if they could have been friends,

822
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: like it's some other reality. Oh yeah, they're definitely more likely.

823
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: They are different. They go and go over to one

824
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: of their houses, put on twenty five or six to four,

825
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: and uh just kick back. Yeah. No, I and Billy

826
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: said similar things about like he slag off Radiohead for

827
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: their pomposity and said, you know, I'm more of a

828
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 1: rainbow d purple guy. And you know, I think Richie

829
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: Blackmore is just as valid as as Johnny Greenwood. And yeah,

830
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: it's the same deal too. He's talking about himself. He's

831
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: he's putting in the place a sort of the critical

832
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: favorites and talking about what he sees a sort of

833
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: the people's band, the silent majorities band, right, you know,

834
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me and I alluded to this earlier,

835
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: but like it's interesting like where he takes that worldview

836
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: as he enters middle age. Because you know, it's one

837
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: thing to to be mad at music critics or you know,

838
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: the members of Payment or Sonic Youth, but you can

839
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: really see that like it started to affect him politically

840
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: in some way. And I just go back to his

841
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: appearance on Alex Jones in I don't know if you've

842
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: ever seen that video, but it's like it's pretty weird,

843
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: I mean, because he ends up talking a lot about

844
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: how the media distorts the truth and keeps people down,

845
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: you know, which is something that I think he probably

846
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: would have said about, you know, people that right for

847
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: spin in like the nineties. But now he's talking about

848
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: like the news media, and he goes on this riff

849
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: about how TV has castrated the American male that uh,

850
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, you can't see real men on television anymore.

851
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: And what's he defining that as? Like, I means he

852
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: like duck Dynasty, Like what's he talking about? I don't

853
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: know what that means. And it just blows me away

854
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: that this is the guy that wrote this arm you know,

855
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: like he wrote again like I used to be a

856
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: little boy, Like this is like one of the most

857
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: quotable lines in Billy Corgan's song book. And now he's

858
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: talking about the American male being being castrated. Um, it's

859
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: just crazy. And you know, and again I think when

860
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: you look at Corgan and Malchomus as sort of contrasting figures.

861
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: And he said it earlier, talking about like Billy Corgan

862
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: being like the try hard guy who's going to show

863
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: you how hard he's working and and and sees himself

864
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: as like a man of the people essentially, and you

865
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: can see like how that really earns bad as he

866
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: gets older and it turns into sort of like this

867
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: dark populism almost that you see on things like Alex

868
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: Jones and then Malkmus on the other side, who again

869
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: I think his image is is of someone who doesn't

870
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: care and has laid back, but I think it's actually

871
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: worked pretty hard over the course of you know, these

872
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: past thirty years to establish a career and indie rock

873
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: you know where he's successful, but he's not hugely successful.

874
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: But he's also been able to carve out his own

875
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: niche in a way that I think is actually pretty

876
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: hard to do. And I don't know if you would

877
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: actually maybe want to make the argument that he is

878
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: more of a real populist in a way than Billy

879
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: Corgan is. Like if you want to call someone an elite,

880
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: I think you can make the argument that Billy Corgan

881
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: in a way is an elite much more than than

882
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: Stephen Malkmus is, especially now with the benefit of all

883
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: this hindset that we have, and he certainly exists in

884
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: a really elite stratosphere of of of rock stars, I

885
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: mean and even just their personas to mean, Malcolm seems

886
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: to have no persona. He just sort of seems like

887
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: a guy who, like you said, just falls out of

888
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: out of bed and writes great songs. He seems to

889
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: have no image, whereas Billy Corgan just seems to really

890
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: get off on playing Billy Corgan, you know, with like

891
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: the zero shirts and those Ferra Too pancake makeup and

892
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: the hair and these Alex Jones contrary and interviews and

893
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: all the wrestling stuff he's been doing. Like, I think

894
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 1: you alluded to this in your book, but like, what's

895
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: the deal with Midwest artists morphing into like these bizarre

896
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: self caricatures. You've got Michael Jackson, Axel Rose prints to

897
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: a certain degree, Billy Corgan. Yeah, I think it's just

898
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: that idea. I think it goes back to the chip

899
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: on the shoulder, the idea that I'm in flyover country.

900
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: There's nothing inherently glamorous about me or where I'm from,

901
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: So I have to construct glamour, you know, I have

902
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: to construct an image. I can't just be myself because

903
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: who I actually am is not very interesting or it's boring.

904
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: And that's worked for a lot of people, um and

905
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: I think it can be a positive thing. But with Billy,

906
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: it just seems like it's turned into this like fitfully

907
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: self aware, like wrestling hell type persona, you know, like

908
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: where he enjoys annoying people, but at the same time

909
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: really wants their affection. You know. It's like, if you're

910
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: going to be a good heal you have to genuinely

911
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: not care that people hate you. And I don't think

912
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: that's ever been true with Billy Corgan. All right, and

913
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. It's always interesting me.

914
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: I wonder how much it pisses Billy corganoff that Pavement

915
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: haven't at least a new album in you know, twenty

916
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: plus years at this point, and their reputation has just

917
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: grown and grown and grown exponentially since they were a live,

918
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: active band, and Billy's out there working his ass off,

919
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: putting out all these new albums, doing all these tours.

920
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't argue it's necessarily shrinking, but it's definitely

921
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: not producing the same dividends that the Pavement is, but

922
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: their legacy and reputation, it's just I wonder how he

923
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: feels about that. I'm sure not good. Well, you know,

924
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: I actually feel like the reputation of the Great Smashing

925
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: Pumpkin records, which you know, Siamese Dream and Melancholy in

926
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: the Infinite Sadness, I feel like that's pretty bullet proof, um.

927
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: And I do mean literally bulletproof, because like Billy Corgan

928
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: is like shot bullets into his legacy over and over

929
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: and over again, and he hasn't been able to kill

930
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: it yet. You know, that's how good those records are.

931
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: I think that now it's almost like people have to

932
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: separate their love of those records from Billy Corgan. You know,

933
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people I think that still listen

934
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: to those albums that I think that Billy Corgan is

935
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: a bit of a dufus, you know, but like they

936
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: aren't going to let that get in the way of

937
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: enjoying those records. I mean, he I feel like the

938
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: case for Billy Corrigan is a lot easier than maybe

939
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: just is my own bias, than than the one from Malcolmus.

940
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: But if you're in to make a case for why

941
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: Malcolm's is better than uh Corgan, or at least the

942
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: pro Malcolmus case, what would what would you say? Well,

943
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: first of all, I think that you know, in the

944
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: case of range Life, I don't think that he was

945
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: trying to start uh, you know, twenty five year blood

946
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: feud with Billy Corgan. You know, I really think that

947
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: it was a spontaneous gesture that made his friends laugh

948
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: and that he saw us harmless, And I think it

949
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: is harmless on its own. Um, it's just that he

950
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: was dealing with someone who again is just you know,

951
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: maybe the most insecure person ever uh to be a

952
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: rock star. And that says a lot, because there's a

953
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: lot of insecure rock stars. But it's hard for me

954
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: to think of someone more deserving of that title than

955
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan. Um. I think it's funny too. I always

956
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: think about Stone Tuple of Pilots. You know, we were

957
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: talking about them earlier, the Elegant Bachelor's thing. Like they

958
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: never really reacted to it that I'm aware of. I mean,

959
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: they certainly didn't, you know, maybe they talked about it

960
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: in private or mentioned an interview here or there, but

961
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: it didn't become as tied to them as it did

962
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: dis mention Pumpkins just because, like like Scott Wiland, I

963
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: don't think he ever really complained about it. And even

964
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 1: like with Scott Wiland died, Pavement went on their Facebook

965
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: page and they paid tribute to Scott Wiland. I don't

966
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: know if you saw that, but they wrote this post

967
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: that said, rest peacefully Scott Wiland. In no way, shape

968
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: or form, did we ever want to add to your misery,

969
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: which is like kind of funny. Yeah, it's kind of strange,

970
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: but um. And again, you know I said this earlier,

971
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: this whole dichotomy between like the try hard Billy Corgan

972
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: and like the slacker Stephen Malchomius, I think that's kind

973
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: of a false dichotomy and you can see that and

974
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: how their careers have played out. Steven Malkmus is actually,

975
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: I think, put out like a lot more albums than

976
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: than Billy Corgan has over the course of these last

977
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: several decades, and he's, you know, just continue to be

978
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: like a very prolific artist, um and doing it again

979
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: on a level where he doesn't have the kind of

980
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: luxuries that Billy Corgan has, so I think in a

981
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: way again, you can make a case that Stephen Malkmus

982
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: is the true populist and Billy Corgan is the elitist.

983
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: So that would be my case, I guess for for Malkmus,

984
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if any of that makes sense to you. No,

985
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: it does, I mean it my I think because I

986
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: I just came at them from such a different place too,

987
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: that I didn't really see the need two to pit

988
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 1: them against one another until actually going back and learning

989
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: about this too, because I came to Pavement a lot

990
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: later in Smashing Pumpkins, because just from where I lived

991
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: in the in the sticks in Massachusetts, like, weren't getting

992
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: really many stores that carry Pavement albums, to be honest

993
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: with you, and you really here are much in the radio.

994
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: Maybe you'd see the one song on MTV or something

995
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: like that too. So yeah, I I enjoy their music.

996
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: I enjoy his solo stuff too. I really I think

997
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 1: that he's I think I like probably a greater collection

998
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: of Malcolm's songs than Billy's at this point, the last

999
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: couple of Smashing Pumpkins albums I have been able to

1000
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: get into at all, Whereas I still think Malcolmus is

1001
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: what was his most recent album. I'm trying to remember

1002
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: what was called Techniques. It's familiar this year, right, that's

1003
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 1: the one that familiars here. Yeah. Yeah, it's a folkey record.

1004
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: It's really great. Wit there was a one before that

1005
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: I also really liked. Anyway, Yeah, I just I think

1006
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: that that he's consistently maintained great output, whereas Billy I

1007
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: don't feel it as much. But again, maybe that's just

1008
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: because I know too much about him. You know. Well,

1009
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you said that it's easier for you

1010
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: to make a pro billy case, which I feel like

1011
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: it's harder to make a pro Billy Corkin case in

1012
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: this instance, but like, what, like what would be your

1013
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: case for him? I totally understand that Stephen Malcolm's is

1014
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: certainly much happier, better adjusted of these two, and I

1015
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: don't care. I I sort of have this fondness for

1016
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: like the slightly unhinged Loan figure with this like ridiculous ambition.

1017
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: You know, if it's Howard Hughes, if it's Rocky, if

1018
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: it's Brian Wilson, even if it's just Folly, I just

1019
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: admire It's like Don Quixote or something. I admire the guts,

1020
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: I admire the vision, I admire the passion. I admire

1021
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: the naked earnestness, probably because I see myself in that

1022
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: in and I don't mean that in a positive way,

1023
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: but in a realistic way. I just I relate to that.

1024
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: And I see someone just sort of go for it,

1025
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: even if it's awkward, and even if they look, you know,

1026
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: weird doing it. It's just inspiring, you know, even if

1027
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: they are a dumpster fire of a human being, which

1028
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: you know is usually the case. When you mix like

1029
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: ruthless ambition with sort of an unstable personality, you get

1030
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: your feel specters, you get your Brian Wilson's, you get

1031
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 1: your Hitler's. But but it's his music is so compelling

1032
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: to me. It's just so grandiose, the fifty guitar parts

1033
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: and just the image of him sort of alone doing it.

1034
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: I first learned about um Philly Corgan in a Rian

1035
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: Wilson documentary, and he was just talking about his admiration

1036
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: for Brian Wilson, and he was talking about Brian doing

1037
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: pet sounds and how he he he he stepped out

1038
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: from his band, stepped out from his family to make

1039
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: the music that he wanted to hear. That's not genius,

1040
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: that's just guts of the words he said. And I

1041
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: always always stuck with me, And that's what I always

1042
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: think of when I think of him. You know that

1043
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: I admire and even if it's wrong, which in I'm

1044
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: not saying that he's been the most easy to get

1045
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: along with bandmate or anything like that. But in addition

1046
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: to commercial superiority, which you know obviously helped define the

1047
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: sound of nineties mainstream rock, and the fact I just

1048
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: think I love his songs more, I just give him

1049
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: the edge for probably the really the very thing that

1050
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: a lot of people dinged him for, which is his ambition. Yeah,

1051
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. I guess I don't think

1052
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: they deemed him for his ambition. I think people love

1053
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: his ambition. And the case I would make is very

1054
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: similar to yours. I love him when he's really grandiose

1055
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: and it's actually working. You know, I would say that

1056
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: like Pavement overall, I prefer their catalog. I think they

1057
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 1: have a more consistent body of work. But the peaks

1058
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: for smashing Pumpkins are better than Pavements peaks, and again

1059
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: signs Dream of Melancholo and The Infinite Sadness are like

1060
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: two amazing records that I love. The reason why people

1061
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: only Billy Corgan is because of himself, because of his personality,

1062
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: because he's a jerk a lot of the time, and

1063
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: he's obnoxious a lot of the time. And it pains

1064
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: me to say that because I respect him as an artist,

1065
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: but he really is his own worst enemy. And you know,

1066
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: if he didn't say so many just stupid things, really

1067
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: an obnoxious thing. Is if he didn't go on Alex

1068
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: Jones and trade conspiracy theories and all these other things

1069
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: he people would like him because I think people love

1070
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: his music and they're even Stephen Malkmus has said nice

1071
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: things about his music. Um, but I think his personality

1072
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: gets in the way. And I'm saying this in the

1073
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: context of a defense of Billy Corgan, so I feel

1074
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: like I've just criticized again more. But I'll say again,

1075
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 1: I think on artistic grounds, his best work ranks with

1076
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: the best rock of the nineties, and you can't write

1077
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: a history of alternative rock without a chapter on Smashing Pumpkins,

1078
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: and with him, I just prefer to focus on the

1079
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: work because if I think about him too much, it

1080
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 1: ends up detracting from my admiration from what he's created.

1081
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: So in terms of these two guys together, I think

1082
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: we've hit upon this already where it's not really like

1083
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: a classic rivalry in a sense of where you feel

1084
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 1: like it's a thing. It really was one in sighting

1085
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: incident from Pavement and then Billy Corgan internalizing that for

1086
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: a long time afterward. Um, I feel like this is

1087
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: maybe more interesting for us as fans. And I'm a

1088
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 1: fan of both of these bands, and I just thinking

1089
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:05,959
Speaker 1: about these two guys as characters and how they stand

1090
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: in contrast with each other, and in a way you

1091
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: feel like you can understand something about the other guy

1092
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 1: by looking at this guy's faults, you know, or this

1093
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: guy's attributes. Um, they really are sort of like a

1094
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: Yin and yang in a way of of nineties indie

1095
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: and alternative music. A lot of ways too, we also

1096
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 1: tend to dislike or resent the people that we see

1097
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that we don't like in ourselves,

1098
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: which I guess negates my my whole defense of Billy Corgan,

1099
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: as I see a lot of myself in that in

1100
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: his behavior. But yeah, It's funny how you think that

1101
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: these two guys, if they could just put aside the differences,

1102
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: they actually would have a lot more in common than not,

1103
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: you know, right exactly, Yeah, they they have things in common, um,

1104
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: except one guy seems comfortable in his own skin and

1105
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: the other one absolutely does not. And that's how you

1106
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: end up. Sometimes you just see one guy who is

1107
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: kind of surly to have a fight, and that's what

1108
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: you have here. Uh. But Jordans want you to know that, Uh,

1109
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: while you are a nature kid, I think you do

1110
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: have a function and you are very well. You're not

1111
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: a bachelor, but you're very elegant and seven I appreciate that.

1112
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: I mean that with all the love in my heart.

1113
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: Today is the greatest day I've ever known. Steven, that

1114
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: really that that means a lot. You say that. All right, everybody, Well,

1115
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: this has been another episode of Rivals. Thank you so

1116
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: much for listening. We'll be back with more conflicts and

1117
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 1: beefs next week. I'm gonna go listen to Siame's dream now.

1118
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of My Heart Radio. The executive

1119
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: producers are Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown. The supervising

1120
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: producers are Taylor t Cooin and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's

1121
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: Roun Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,

1122
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast

1123
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: or my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

1124
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1125
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: H