1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. This 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: episode contains discussions of suicide. Listener discussion is advised. If 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: you are a loved one is struggling with suicidal thoughts, 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. At three at 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: my desk, I sped my beer and straightened my back, 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: suddenly aware that I am watching us as a family, 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: that I'm about to see what we were like together 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: before time had scattered us off into our separate lives. 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Playing on the screen in front of me is evidence 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: that we've been together, proof that we existed, with clues 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: to our disintegration, the possibility that my memories are to 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: whatever degree, real and verifiable. So I watch, hoping to 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: find answers to questions I hardly have language for about 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: who we were during those years that shaped us. That's 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: Margaret Kimball, illustrator, lettering artist, and writer, sir of the 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: recent graphic memoir and now I spill The Family Secrets. 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: Margaret's story is about silence and memory and the powerful 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: need to peel back the layers of secrecy and shame 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: in order to move forward with grace, strength, and dignity. 20 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 21 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 22 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. We grew up 23 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: in Connecticut and Glastonbury, which is a really cute suburb 24 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: of Hartford, and we lived on this little street called 25 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: Marthew Drive, and there are all these colonial houses and 26 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: it was a safe street, so we could just kind 27 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: of roam freely around. And there was a little side 28 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: street called Little Acres and we could roam down there 29 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: into the creek and there were some woods and there 30 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: was a field beyond that. It felt infinite to me, 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: like when I go back there now, it's like such 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a tiny little street, but as a kid, you can just, 33 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, walking up the entire street felt like this 34 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: giant journey. There was one time where my brother and 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: I tried to run away and we went literally, I 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: mean probably thirty ft down the road, but we felt 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: like we were, you know, miles from home, and my 38 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: dad just stepped on the porch and screamed for us 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: to come back home, and we immediately did. It felt 40 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: like we had gone like really far. And it felt 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: that way when we went to Little aakres we build 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: forts there. There were all these twigs and branches, and 43 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: I remember sitting in our woods actually kind of near 44 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: the shed, and just dreaming of tree forts I could build. 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: And I loved being in the really tiny woods. In 46 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: the town, there was like a little downtown area so 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: near our church, we could ride bikes and go get 48 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: donuts at the little pharmacy. There was a cute restaurant 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: called Lotties, which is still there, which I go do 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm in Connecticut. You know, in many ways, 51 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: it was a sort of visually idyllic childhood. And my 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: mom was and is. She's like a very kind woman, 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: but you know, I remember her as very tired and distracted, 54 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: and I think she was just having three kids. And 55 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: I remember, maybe a little when I was a little older, 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: like maybe ten, her just constantly talking about this career 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: she wanted to have. I think she wanted to be 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: an English teacher, and that it made me feel guilty, 59 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: like sorry that I exist, you know, I'm sorry for 60 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: your career. So that's what I think of her. I 61 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: just think of her as like really tired and nice, 62 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: although sometimes very angry, but just like a tired person. 63 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: Who kind of has limited resources to manage that exhaustion 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: and her feeling of not having had the exact life 65 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: she wanted. Was how I look at it now? And 66 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: how about your dad? He is a workaholic. He was 67 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: gone all week working, but he would play with us 68 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: so much. So I remember on the weekends. There's two 69 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: games that I remember really well. One was I think 70 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: we called it monster, where he'd just like to sit 71 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: on the living room carpet and we'd go near him 72 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: and he'd grab one of us and then we'd have 73 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: to try and escape. It would just go on for hours. 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: The other game we called Jail, and we'd go to 75 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: one of the local elementary schools. I think button Ball 76 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: was the one that had the best playground, so he 77 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: would chase us around playing tag around the elementary school 78 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: or the playground, and then when we got caught, would 79 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: have to go into jail, and all the kids, any 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: kid that was on the playground would start playing, so 81 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: he'd be, you know, chasing like ten kids. So I 82 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: remember him playing a lot, which I also feel like 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: it's probably not a super fair memory, Like my mom's 84 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: exhausted and tired, and God's just so playful and great, 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: but I think he was having his own struggles. But 86 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: when we were with him, that's what I remember. Yeah, 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: there's so much in your story that really illustrates the 88 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: way that memory plays tricks on us, or sometimes lays 89 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: down tracks like invisible tracks within us that we can't 90 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: really access or don't really know what images or snippets 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: of conversation or any of it means until way, way later, 92 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: when the pieces of the puzzle sort of fall together. 93 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: Within the idyllic, sweet landscape of Margaret's childhood, there were 94 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: indeed hidden struggles, but as a small child, of course, 95 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: she doesn't see them, even though perhaps she intuits them. 96 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 1: She adores her older brother and wants to do everything 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: he does. Not only do they get lost in the 98 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: woods together and build forts, but when he starts to 99 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: ride a bike, she wants to ride one too. When 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: she's four, she misjudges a corner, falls down, and has 101 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: a pretty bad accident. But this is just one of 102 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: the seminal and destabilizing events that occurred that year. The 103 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: other happens on Mother's Day. That morning, my mom asked 104 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: my dad to take us to church as a Sunday, 105 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: so he did I think I was four, and my 106 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: youngest brother was ten months, and my older brother must 107 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: have been six. So he took us to church, and 108 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: she stayed home and I think kind of spun out 109 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: of control and was looking in the mirror and having 110 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: all these really negative thoughts about herself and finally decided 111 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: that we would be better off if she was dead. 112 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: And so she had been prescribed something like xanex. I 113 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: don't know if it was actually zanex or something like that, 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: some anti anxiety medication. She went up to the shed 115 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: in our backyard and she grabbed a belt to just 116 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: planning to hang herself. But she went to the shed 117 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: and took all the pills. I mean, I think there 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: were eleven or thirteen something like that, and then down 119 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: goes in vodka and then immediately became unconscious. And so 120 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: that's where my dad found her after church. You were 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: four years old, So what, if anything, do you remember 122 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: about that day. Our shed was kind of up a 123 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: little hill and there were these um stone steps that 124 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: just were on a little path back into the woods. 125 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: I remember this picture in my mind of my dad 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: carrying my mom across his arms and bringing her into 127 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: the house and kind of brushing past me. It was 128 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: like an image in my mind that I just thought 129 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: was maybe fake, or I had dreamed it or something. 130 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: Margaret has a hazy memory of that image from mother's day, 131 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: but never fully knows the context of what happened. The 132 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: details about the pills and vodka and belt those were 133 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: unknown to her childhood self. It isn't until fifteen years later, 134 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: when she's nineteen years old, that she received a call 135 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: from her brother who tells her he's just learned from 136 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: their father that their mother had attempted suicide that day. 137 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: And what does she do with that information, what so 138 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: many of us do with what we can't yet handle, 139 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: She files it away. You know, one of the things 140 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: I often think about about secrets is that only part 141 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: of the challenge when one finds out something that was 142 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: a secret is the secret itself. It's also when we 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: find out what we find out, and whether we have 144 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: the the muscles or the ability psychologically, emotionally, spiritually to 145 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: absorb what we're learning. And I mean, to me, so 146 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: much of your story is about this very powerful need 147 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,479 Speaker 1: that comes over you over time to learn and excavate 148 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: as much of the truth as you possibly can. But 149 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen right away, right. That doesn't happen when 150 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: you're nineteen and you get that information, right. I mean, 151 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: I love the way you're describing that, like the excavation, 152 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: because as you were speaking and I'm thinking that, my 153 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: brother's phone call was like the stone on a pile. 154 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: I was so angry about my mom. When I'm sixteen, 155 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: she attempts suicide again, and I was so angry about 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: that because it just seemed like she didn't care about us. 157 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: I don't feel that way anymore, for the record, but 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: when he called and told me that, I just kind 159 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: of put it on that pile of anger and just 160 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: I didn't have any way to think about it other 161 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: than to say, like, of course, of course that's what happened. 162 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: And then it took me years. I mean, yeah, I 163 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: think fifteen or seventeen years or something to really unpack 164 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: was your sense as you grew up that if someone 165 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: had asked you, do you think is your mother depressed? 166 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: Or are you worried about your mother? What would you 167 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: have said? As a kid, I would have said, what 168 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: is depressed? Did you have a sense that something was amiss? 169 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: You know, not until I was ten the first time 170 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: that I was aware, she went to the hospital and 171 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: my dad talked to me about it. That's when I 172 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: first became aware of it. Before that, I knew she 173 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: got mad, especially at me. By this time, Margaret's parents 174 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: had been divorced for a couple of years. When Margaret's 175 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: with her mom, she's also on the receiving end of 176 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: her mother's anger. She sent to her room all the time. 177 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: When she's with her dad, she struggles to communicate with him. 178 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: She's pretty sure her dad has a girlfriend, and the 179 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: way she eventually confirms this is by showing him a 180 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: piece of paper on which she's written, Dad, do you 181 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: have a girlfriend? Circle? Yes or no? So enough said, 182 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: But in fact, the family's lack of communication stretches much 183 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: further back, all the way back to her mom and 184 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: dad's own secretive histories. You describe your father as someone 185 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: who doesn't know how to put language to feeling, which 186 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: really comes from his own history, and you know various 187 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: difficult and even tragic things in his own history, his 188 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 1: sister Peggy drowning at the age of thirteen in a 189 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: lake while he was there, and the way that these 190 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: things never got talked about. Now that there was this 191 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: kind of silence on both sides of your family, and 192 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: your mother came from a mentally ill mother, but that 193 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: was never talked about. And there's a line in your 194 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: book where you say your forebears want the secrets disappeared, 195 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Like if you don't, if you don't talk about it, 196 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: then maybe it never happened. I think that's exactly right. 197 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: I think you know secrets sometimes. I think secret is 198 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: another word for shame. And I just think my parents, 199 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: in their own ways, feel so much shame over things 200 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: that have happened, and so much disappointment about the way 201 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: their lives have unfolded in some ways, and I think 202 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: it's too much for them to talk about. Not long 203 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: after Margaret's father circles yes on that slip of paper, 204 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: he marries his then girlfriend Janice. At around the same time, 205 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: Margaret's mother is hospitalized for a second time and diagnosed 206 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: with manic depression. Just before her mother's hospitalization, Margaret notices 207 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: that her mom is buying a ton of jewelry, but 208 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: she can't remotely afford acting completely out of character. As 209 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: time passes and her mom's behavior becomes more erratic, Margaret 210 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: learns to read for signs like this, signs of her 211 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: mother's instability. Her watchfulness becomes part of the texture of 212 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: family life. I think it's it's an education you get 213 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: really quickly. My mom was such a foundational figure for 214 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: me at that point. She was still my best friend, 215 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: and I suddenly realized, or thought I realized that she 216 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: could disappear at any moment, and so I needed to know, 217 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: like what would the signs be so I could help her. 218 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: So I learned pretty quickly, and you know, they stuck 219 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: with me, like later on when she would have an episode. 220 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I can recognize it immediately. I think it's 221 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: just something that once you can see those signs, it's 222 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: just it doesn't leave you, or at least it hasn't 223 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: left me. We'll be back in a moment with more 224 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: family secrets. When Margaret enters the sixth grade, she goes 225 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: to a new school, and at first she clocks this 226 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: as an ideal time for a fresh start, an opportunity 227 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: to peel away from her complicated home life. But the 228 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: complications persist, and now her mom is not the only 229 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: one grappling with illness. Margaret herself develops a number of 230 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: inexplicable physical ailments. In the meantime, perhaps not coincidentally, her 231 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: parents are in a custody battle, which her father ultimately wins. 232 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: I remember throwing up a bunch of times in Phitnancy's grade, 233 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: and I remember those moments, but I didn't realize that 234 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: they had had to end so close together and so 235 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: consistently during that time period, during the gusty battle. So 236 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: they seemed so strange. It wasn't like a headstrip throat like. 237 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: I didn't have anything diagnosable. So I just wondered if 238 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: they were related to the stress from, you know, going 239 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: to psychologists and answering questions about my parents which were 240 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: clearly going to put me into loyalty buyings, and going 241 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: to therapists and talking to them about which house they 242 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: felt safest at, or my issues with Janice. Now I 243 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: just look at it and I'm like, oh, of course 244 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: it was were related, like my getting sick and all 245 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: the stress of trying to navigate my loyalty to both 246 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: my parents. Your mother and Janice are about as different 247 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: as two women could be in terms of the way 248 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: that they live, the way that they run their households, 249 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: um just their energy who they are. First, Janice seems 250 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: really worldly. She read the New York or the New 251 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: York Times. She lived in New York City for a while, 252 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: and she loves art and she loves music, and so 253 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: she seems very cultured and she's fun like she you know, 254 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: immediately subscribed me teen Bop and all the like tween 255 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: magazines that I thought were like amazing, and would buy 256 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: me posters of celebrities like Jonathan Taylor Thomas to put 257 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: on my wall. So she's like cultured, but also loves 258 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: pop culture and so it's great. And she loves shopping. 259 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: And she seemed to me like a breath of fresh 260 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: air at the time, but soon that breath of fresh 261 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: air feels more like a cold wind. Janice's attitude towards 262 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: Margaret changes. Unlike Margaret's mother, who has a sort of 263 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: anything goes approach to house rules, Janice runs a tight ship. 264 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: Spills are not tolerated, some couches are off limits, and 265 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: Margaret and her brothers are banned from the kitchen. I 266 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: mean entirely. They are not allowed to enter the kitchen 267 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: of their own home unless Janice is there. As the 268 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: tensions build, Janice and Margaret's father have a child of 269 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: their own, a daughter named Katie, and the divide widens further. 270 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: When Margaret calls Katie her sister, Janice corrects her and 271 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: says she's her half sister. Janice does everything she can 272 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: to keep them apart. That was shocking, um, And you know, 273 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: I wonder if that divide was sort of always there. 274 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: Janice married my dad and they had never lived together 275 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: until they got married, and we all had never lived together, 276 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: and so I think she was kind of signing up 277 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: for something and she just didn't have any clue what 278 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: it might be like. And I think my dad didn't 279 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: have any clue of what kind of person she was 280 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: to live with. But you know, before Katie was born, 281 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: when they lived there was a year. I think that 282 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: they lived together before she was born for maybe two years, 283 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: and the house was immediately filled with Janice's belongings. And 284 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: my dad would say, oh, it's because know, I lost 285 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: everything in the divorce or something like that. And I 286 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 1: remember when she got pregnant, she just started snapping at us, 287 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: and my dad kept saying, Oh, she's just pregnant, you know, 288 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: she's just not feeling well. I wondered is it because 289 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: she's pregnant or is it something else? And then when 290 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: we all moved in together, became clear that she just 291 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, had her way of doing things and was 292 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: not really interested in compromising. We weren't allowed to do 293 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: our own laundry, which you know should sound like a dream, 294 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: like I would love to not do my own laundry now. 295 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: But it was weird because at my mom's house, you know, 296 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: from the age of ten, she was like, you're going 297 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: to do your own laundry. You're old enough, you know 298 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: how to do it. And then we get to Janice's 299 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: house and all the laundry runs through her. I can't 300 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: use the book. I couldn't. I never once used the machines, 301 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: and I don't even know what they looked like. And 302 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: again the silence and the way that things don't get 303 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: really talked about or get um sort of underplayed by 304 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: your fathers like that's just how that's how she is, 305 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: or making excuses until it reaches a point where you're 306 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: a senior in high school and that's the year that 307 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: your mom makes another suicide attempt, and it's also the 308 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 1: year that your dad and Janice split up. Yeah, Janis 309 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: and I thought almost the entire time. But the fights 310 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: were never productive, and they, I don't think ever really 311 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: addressed the underlying issues, which probably required a lot of therapy. 312 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: For her to deal with her childhood is use whatever 313 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: they might be, and then for me to try and 314 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: understand why she was the way she was. So yeah, 315 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: of course, eventually in that environment it reaches a fever 316 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: pitch and then everybody disperses, and then my mom, I 317 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: don't know, you know, I had become kind of distant 318 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: from her. She moved a bunch of times in that 319 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: time period. She moved two or three times, and I 320 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: probably saw her or maybe every other weekend, and so 321 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't totally connected to what was happening in her life. 322 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: And when I talked to her at one point and 323 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: realized she was manic, I just said, you know, I 324 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: think you're manic, and she just yelled at me, and 325 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 1: I didn't agree. Now, Margaret is in her senior year 326 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: of high school, a time usually filled with feelings of freedom, excitement, elation. 327 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: But Margaret's senior year is instead weighed down by the 328 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: heft of Janice leaving her father and her mother's ongoing 329 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: struggles with mental illness. But here is where her resilience 330 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: begins to really take form and shape. She finds comfort 331 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: and therapy where she can safely examine the troubles of 332 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: her family. In addition, she sets off on a number 333 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: of healing expeditions too far away places through landscapes, which 334 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: allow her to physically, psychologically, and spiritually distance herself from 335 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: her family in order to turn inward to heal and 336 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: to grow. I was angry, and I was just trying 337 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: to be okay. So I did a bunch of backpacking trips. 338 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: I took a backpacking trip in high school out to 339 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: around moab Utah for three weeks with Howard Bound, and 340 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: that helped me kind of center myself and feel capable. 341 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: You know, when you're hiking and they say like, well, 342 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: if you break your leg, you're still gonna have to 343 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: hike yourself out of here, you know, You're like, okay, 344 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: Like I'm gonna really focus. And then the other thing 345 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 1: during that first backpacking trip was that I realized this 346 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: sounds really morbid, but it was really helpful to me, 347 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: which I was, you know, hiking in the mountains and 348 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: the canyons and feeling like it doesn't matter if I 349 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: die if I fall off the side, because at first 350 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: it was really hard to kind of walk because there 351 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: was like loose rock and it was hurting my ankles 352 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: and I was carrying like a six pound backpack and 353 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: I was really scared. And then I was like, if 354 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: I fall up this mountain and die, the earth doesn't care. 355 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: It just like absorbs my body. And that made me 356 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: feel somehow calmer, Like my life is small and so 357 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: I can figure out what my priorities are and what 358 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: I want to focus on and try and aim for 359 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: that I'm just like a blip and the history of 360 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: the earth, and that smallness made me feel safe and 361 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: like centered. So I took another backpacking trip to Alaska 362 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: in college in a summer between years, I think after 363 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: my freshman year. So that helped me a ton, just 364 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: to kind of feel calm um. And then you know, 365 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: I ignored it until I took a class with Lynn Bloom. 366 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: She's retired now, but she was professor at the University 367 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: of connectict It and she taught the autobiography class there. 368 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: I read all these memoirs and I suddenly was like, 369 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: oh my god, these books are teaching me how to 370 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: live or like giving me guidance that I don't have otherwise. 371 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: And so from there I started writing kind of lightly 372 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: about my mom and what had happened, and it just 373 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: built up over time, and I took more independent studies 374 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: with her and read more memoirs and just kind of 375 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: slowly chipped away at that until I got to grad school, 376 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: and then I really tried to unpack the story as 377 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: much as I could. We'll be right back. So Margaret 378 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: begins to unpack. She's moved by the art of memoir, 379 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: and we realize is that this will be the way 380 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: to ask and hopefully answer the questions that so defined 381 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: her childhood, namely the nature of her mom's illness and 382 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: the reason behind her multiple attempts to take her own life. 383 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: But as is the case when we grapple with family secrets, 384 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: it's a slow and rocky journey. Remember that call Margaret 385 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: receives when she's nineteen and her brother tells her he's 386 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: learned about their mom's first suicide attempt on Mother's Day. Well, 387 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: it takes five years, and it isn't until Margaret's twenty four, 388 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: when she's actively writing the story of her family, that 389 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: she decides to directly ask the questions she needs to ask. 390 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: I didn't have the wherewithal too articulate a question, and 391 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I had one. I was angry, 392 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: and I was just kind of like, oh, of course 393 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: she did that. I wasn't empathetic. I wasn't really thinking 394 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: about what it must have been like for her. I 395 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: was just sort of shoving it away and not thinking 396 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: it was anything I had to address or that there 397 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: was any way to address it because it was so 398 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: far in the past. And I'm like, while we survived, 399 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: we're fine. She survived, it's fine, it doesn't matter. While 400 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: also I think always in the back of your mind 401 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: is like, for me is probably fear and maybe shame 402 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: of like why did that happen? Did she not love us? 403 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: Was she okay? Like? What happened? What happened? Indeed, as 404 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: it turns out, it isn't just Margaret's mom's mental state 405 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: in question. At around this time, Margaret invites her siblings 406 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: to a family reunion of sorts in Kentucky, where she's 407 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: living with her boyfriend, Christian. It's supposed to be a 408 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: fun weekend of bourbon tastings and card games, though Margaret 409 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: and her brothers have always been sort of rough and 410 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: tumble with each other. This time, her brother Ted seems off. 411 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: He punches a table violence, catching everyone off guard, and 412 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: the darkness doesn't subside. The next day, Ted is still 413 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: deeply and inexplicably distraught, and the weekend is ruined. So 414 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: we all go to bed angry. And then the day 415 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: after that he just refuses to come with us. We 416 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: had like some stuff planned, I think a bourbon tour, 417 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: and he skipped it. He just stayed home and I 418 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: didn't speak to anybody. So finally in the evening, Christian 419 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: just looked at him and said, are you okay? And 420 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: he just burst into tears. And I went out and 421 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: talked to him, and he just was like, no one 422 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: listens to me, no one understands me. And I was 423 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: kind of like, what are you talking about? Like it 424 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: just seemed like such a big reaction for such a 425 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: small thing. How many times have we yelled at each other? 426 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: How many times have we just been like piss off? 427 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: We're like a little rough with each other all the time, 428 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: and so none of us think anything of it. And 429 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: then he said, I don't know what's happening to me. 430 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: And I was trying of taken aback. I just like 431 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: sort of noted it. I didn't say anything at the time, 432 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: but I was like, what does that mean? And it 433 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: just sounded a lot bigger. Remember, Margaret has had some 434 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: early life training in this reading the signs. She's developed 435 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: her hyper vigilance skills with regard to her mother. Now 436 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: it appears that the same level of watchfulness she practiced 437 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: as a child is needed for her brother. He's been 438 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: acting paranoid, calling himself a targeted individual and ascribing to 439 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: out their ideas and conspiracy theories. Did alarm bells go 440 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: off for you at all in terms of his behavior, 441 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: which had, you know, kind of a paranoid aspect to it. 442 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: You eventually look up the phrase targeted individual, and you 443 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: know it takes you to this is something that people 444 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: who are schizophrenic often say. Yeah. So I didn't realize 445 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: that until I think sixteen, a couple of years later. 446 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: I didn't put any of the pieces together any Like, 447 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: nothing was flagged for me except for his comment like, 448 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening to me, And I just 449 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: thought that sounds really big and scary, and I'm not 450 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: sure what he means. But he's always been unconventional. I 451 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: remember in high school, like he would do weird stuff, 452 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, like, for example, he wanted a parking spot 453 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: in the senior lot and there weren't any. He got 454 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: one in a side lot, and so he went in 455 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 1: the middle of the night and painted an additional parking 456 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: spot and started parking there, you know, which is funny. 457 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: But he did a million things like that, and then 458 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: would just be a jerk to the principle when you'd 459 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: get called in and get in trouble, you'd just be 460 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: like what and he'd be really belligerent, and I just 461 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: remember thinking, like, why are you so weird? Like somebody 462 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: wanted to fight him once and he bought boxing gloves 463 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: and it's like what a box in a ring? Like 464 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: what are you doing? So he just always seems so 465 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: unconventional to me, and it was funny until it wasn't. 466 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that's still moving in your story 467 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: is the way in which you put all these pieces 468 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: together in your mom gives you videos that were transferred 469 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,959 Speaker 1: from film to c D family footage, family videos, which is, 470 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, a treasure trove for anyone who is ever 471 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: trying to understand anything about their family, the role of 472 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: of film, of photographs, of being able to just see 473 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: with your own eyes certain things that happened or didn't happen. 474 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: So it's when you when you head home, which is 475 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: when you get you know, all of this like download 476 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: of information. You get the films and you get the 477 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, you you go searching through the attic, you 478 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: find all this stuff. Yeah, when I sat down to 479 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: watch those videos, it just unlocked a whole world for me. 480 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: Like I just was shocked to see us as a family, 481 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: which it sounds so mundane, but I just hadn't I mean, 482 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: we have photographs, but I hadn't seen any footage at 483 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: least not in the decade or two. I just don't 484 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: even remember like footage of us interacting. And so I 485 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: was just struck. And then realizing the time frame of 486 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: the video because I saw attention between my parents in 487 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: the video, and I'm like, so when was this taken? 488 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: What's going on in her lives? I called my mom. 489 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: I just started talking to her more and asking her 490 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: more questions and coming up with questions that I could 491 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: think about, you know, like, because you don't know what 492 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: you don't know and I just had no idea what 493 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: to even ask, and so my mom would always say, 494 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: you can ask me anything, but it's like, what do 495 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: you ask when the question is not even clear in 496 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: your mind and the problems that I'm clearing your mind. 497 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: So that video really helped give me a starting point 498 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: anyway for asking her questions about that year in particular. 499 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: And then from there, you know, more questions than raveled 500 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: as we as we spoke. That's such a great and 501 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: interesting point, the idea of not knowing the questions. It's 502 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: often you know someone will get to a point of saying, 503 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: ask me anything, but if you don't know, you can't. 504 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: And you write, you write in the book while you're 505 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: watching the films, you write a familiar feeling bloomed in 506 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: my chest, that wide eyed desperation of wanting to hold 507 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: us all together. And I thought that was really moving 508 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: because it was like you were accessing your child's self. 509 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: You know that that even the language bloomed in my chest. 510 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: But the wide eyed desperation of wanting to hold us 511 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: all together is probably something that you felt as a child, 512 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: without even knowing what that meant. And then one of 513 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: the really beautiful things about being able to go back 514 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: as as an adult who's done a lot of work 515 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: and sort of reach a hand out in a way 516 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: to that child is to kind of intervene in that 517 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: after the fact. Yeah, I you know, that's a that's 518 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: a lovely way to put it. Um, My therapist would 519 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: really like that. It was kind of a surprising feeling 520 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: because I think I told myself a story after their 521 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: divorce about like, yeah, they weren't good for each other, 522 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: they needed to be a part best for everybody. I 523 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: still don't remember wanting them to stay together, but I 524 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: remember being sad when they told us they were separating. 525 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: And when I watched that and I felt that feeling. 526 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: It was such a child feeling, like a childhood feeling 527 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: of like thinking, that's something in my behavior, just like 528 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm watching it in my thirties. In my mind, I'm like, 529 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: if I do something different, I can help them, like 530 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: I can keep them together. But I think I must 531 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: have just wondered that a lot to myself. How do 532 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: I help them or would I do differently? You know, 533 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: when I think about getting sent to my room all 534 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: the time, I think, sometimes, oh, well, if I didn't 535 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: make my mom so mad, maybe things would have been 536 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: different or something. When there is a record of some 537 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: sort um like those films were for you, you look 538 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: for evidence. You know, this sort of unlocks, you know, 539 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: the sluice in you. And you go to the attic 540 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: and and go through photos and diaries and videos and 541 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: notes and just anything that you can get your hands on, 542 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: and you even you make a pilgrimage back to the 543 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: old house and the shed where your mother had gone 544 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: that day. In the current owners are oblivious about history, 545 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: which of course is always the case. They've strung up lights, 546 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: and there are these lime green chairs, and it's all 547 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of festive and and pretty and and of course 548 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: they don't know the history. But you're there to try to, 549 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, dig in and find out as much as 550 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: as much as you can. Ye. It's during this pivotal 551 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: trip home when Ted's worrying behaviors begin to crystallize from 552 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: Margaret that she's also immersing herself and the family artifacts 553 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: and memorabilia. She's at a point of readiness to know more, 554 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 1: to take in more, to know what questions to ask, 555 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: what to look for in terms of signs and patterns. 556 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: She and Ted are in the car together and he's 557 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: acting really fearful and on edge, and so she digs 558 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: into that too and begins to research what might be 559 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: going on with Ted. I mean he helped me with 560 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: that by seeing things like targeted individual and gain stocking. 561 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: Those aren't words or terms I ever would have known 562 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: to look up or think about. And he was so 563 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: distraught in that car ride, like he he was wearing 564 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: this hoodie and covering his face. It was just like 565 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: so odd. He just looked really distressed. And so when 566 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: he started using those terms, I just like walcked them 567 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: in my mind and was like, I need to figure 568 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: out what's going on. And that's yeah. When I started 569 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: looking that scared me. And I didn't want to frighten him, 570 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to like judge him, and I 571 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: didn't quite know how to approach him with empathy. And 572 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: it took me a while to figure that out. Margaret 573 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: continues her immersion into the family history to work on 574 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: her book, and eventually she meets up with Ted for 575 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: a somewhat official interview at a coffee shop. He knows 576 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 1: she's writing this book, and she makes the generous move 577 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: as the memoirist to give him the opportunity to tell 578 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: his own story, to convey his experiences in his own words. 579 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: How could I possibly describe his experiences as thoroughly as 580 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: he could. I wanted to give him space to do 581 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: that and to feel safe about the book since he 582 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: was going to be in it. After a few years 583 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: has and Margaret has asked all the questions she can ask, 584 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: mind all the footage and data she possibly can. It's 585 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: and the book is coming out. She shares it with 586 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: her mother, her father, her siblings. In a way, the 587 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: very act of writing the graphic memoir is what gives 588 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: both Margaret and her family the chance to excavate and 589 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: dissect their memories. In the end, Margaret's family has a 590 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: very loving response to the book and the awareness that 591 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: for each of them the story is different and uniquely 592 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: their own. I feel like the book ultimately put language 593 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: to all these experiences and all these things that had happened. 594 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: And I had just hours and hours and hours of 595 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: conversations with my mom about her experiences, and the book 596 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: gave us this space to do that. And I don't 597 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: think we would have had an opportunity otherwise, because it's 598 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: hard to just go to somebody's house and be like, 599 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: tell me about the darkest periods of your life for 600 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: no reason at all. Um. So I think everything was 601 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: said that could be said, and it kind of allowed 602 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: us to move on. I think from all of our 603 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: anger and sadness about and maybe shame, I hope about 604 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: what had happened for my dad. He you know, I 605 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: asked him a few questions throughout the process, like about 606 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: my grandparents, and I wasn't sure if my grandfather's thinking 607 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: ted had really happened or if I had imagined that, 608 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: and my dad was like, no, that absolutely happened. I 609 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: would say, like, this is specifically for the book. I'm 610 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: specifically asking this question for this reason, and he needed 611 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: that information upfront. But he said, I want you to 612 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: write whatever you want to write, but I'm not going 613 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: to read it because I lived it and I don't 614 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: need to go back there and I don't want and 615 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: he didn't want to influence me. He's like, I don't 616 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: want to read it and then change what you've said 617 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: about it through my own memory, and so he just didn't, 618 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: but has been really supportive. I don't feel upset about it. 619 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: I feel sad that he's so sad about the past. 620 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: I wish you could, you know, I'll be okay talking 621 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: about it, but that might not just not happen for him. 622 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: How does it feel now you're a brand new mother yourself, 623 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: You just had a baby, and you've birthed this book 624 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: into the world. How does it feel to have finally 625 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: been able to assemble the shards of this story so 626 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: that it makes something that's whole and that's coherent. And 627 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 1: is this something you feel that you can now move 628 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: on from. Is they're moving on? I think so. I mean, 629 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: I feel incredibly calm, Like I feel like the book 630 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: gave me solace about everything that happened, the suicide attempts 631 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: and my mom's mental illness and just mental illness in 632 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: our family. Like there was a long period where I 633 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: didn't talk about it, and then I would kind of 634 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: dole it out as like a little party trick, like, oh, well, 635 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: my mom is bi polars, you know, like just to 636 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: get attention or something. And now it feels complicated, and 637 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I have empathy for everyone in my family. 638 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: And you know, I was thinking the other day looking 639 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: at my baby, and I was thinking, like, I wonder 640 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: if he'll want to write about whatever torments we do 641 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: to him as he grows up, and I hope he 642 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: feels free too, And the same with my stepdaughter, Like 643 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: I just want them to feel like they can say 644 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: anything they want to say about their Childhood's not perfect, 645 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, like no childhood is perfect, I don't think. 646 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: I think it's really hard for everyone, And I hope 647 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: they feel free to, like, ask us questions and talk 648 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: to us about their experiences and hell in whatever ways 649 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: they need to when they're older. M M Family Secrets 650 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. Molly z Achor 651 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 652 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 653 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 654 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 655 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also find 656 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at Danny writer. And if you'd like 657 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 658 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts for my 659 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 660 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.