1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: I'm fairly certain that it was I who seduced him 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: that afternoon, But would I have if he had not 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: kissed me first? Am I as delusional as Humbered? Humbered? 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: When he narrates Lolita was twelve at the time, it 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: was she who seduced me. In both scenes from the memoir, 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,639 Speaker 2: Arnold is passive, either lost in thought or asleep when 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: I appear like a nymph in the forest. There is 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: empowerment in remembering oneself as his sexual aggressor, especially after 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: modeling at Escapades. But I don't believe that was my 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: motivation when I wrote this? Was I protecting Arnold? The 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: statute of limitations had long ago past. Was I protecting 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: my marriage? We had just celebrated our twenty seventh anniversary. 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: That's Jill Cement, novelist, memoirist, professor of English at the 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: University of Florida in Gainesville, an author of two memoirs, 16 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: Half a Life and Consent, written more than twenty five 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: years apart. These books are an extraordinary testament to the 18 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves and the way the passage 19 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: of time informs our memories and our understanding of the past. 20 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 21 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 22 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: and yes, the secrets we keep from ourselves. 23 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: I was born in Canada to a kind of middle 24 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: clas last Jewish family. My father's parents were more educated 25 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: than my mother's and were from a much higher class, 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: and they got married under the circumstances that people get 27 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: married under in those days. She wanted to get out 28 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: of the house and not work for her father, and 29 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: he was strange, and they got married. And so I 30 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: grew up in this kind of milieu of you know, 31 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: old Montreal, very very close knit Jewish community, almost deadly 32 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 2: in its insularity. Then when I was about ten, we 33 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: immigrated to the United States, to Los Angeles. We were 34 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: able to immigrate because my grandfather had applied for the lottery. 35 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,279 Speaker 2: My father was ill prepared for it, he was autistic, 36 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: and my mother was just dying to escape Montreal. So 37 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: we came up there, and then, you know, my father 38 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: couldn't adjust to immigration, my mother was thrilled to be 39 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: in California. They eventually get divorced and we fall about 40 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: three or four classes down to the lower class because 41 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: I'm now the child of a single parent, and so 42 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: I grew up, you know, from the age of fourteen on. 43 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: I had a full time job and I helped support 44 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: the family. And that's kind of my background. I mean, 45 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: it was an unusual teenage shood because I had a 46 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: full time job. I was rushed into adulthood very early. 47 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: And this would have been when you moved with your 48 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: family to LA This would have been in the late 49 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. 50 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: You know. I mean my parents got divorced when I 51 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: was about fourteen, and so it'd have been like sixty seven, 52 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: and so it sort of, you know, kind of went 53 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: along with the late sixties and seventies, which was a 54 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: sort of wild time, especially in Los Angeles. 55 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: And do you have several brothers. 56 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: I have three brothers. One is older than me and 57 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: we're almost like twins. His name is Gary. And then 58 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: I have a brother named James, who is five years 59 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: younger than me. And then there was the family mistake. Scott. 60 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: He was born just as my mother had saved up 61 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: enough money to divorce my father, and we had been 62 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: holding our breath for this moment of escape. And she 63 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 2: finds out she's pregnant and that you gave us another 64 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: two years. Under his strange authoritarianism, my father was sort 65 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: of like if you've ever seen rain Man, the Dustin 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: Hoffman character. He was able to kind of hold everything 67 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: together when we were in Montreal because he had an 68 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: extended family and everything was a routine. But once he 69 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: got to California, the pressure of not having his routine 70 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: just put him over the edge. And it was like 71 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 2: living with somebody who was in world in a constant terror. 72 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: If something was out of place and if money was spent, 73 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: it was like a black cloud of worries and craziness. 74 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: And so yeah, we all were very aware of it, 75 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: and we all wanted to escape it. And my mom 76 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: she was one of these women who you know, had 77 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: never even paid a bill. She didn't learn any of 78 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: those skills of how to survive. So when she wanted 79 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: to leave my father, we really had to think about 80 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: how we would survive. And my older brother and I 81 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: need a commitment that we would help her because there 82 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: was no other way. She wasn't prepared, as we weren't either, 83 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: and we all sort of figured it out together. 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: When it's time for high school, Jill goes about three 85 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: days a week. Then on Friday mornings, she bore a 86 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: flight to different spots around the country because she has 87 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: a job, not a typical teenage job like bagging groceries 88 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: or scooping ice cream. No, this is a marketing research job. 89 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: Become was an emancipated miner, so she can sign contracts. 90 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: She's helping to support her family. At the same time, 91 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: she takes art classes on Monday nights because she's known 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: since the age of three that this is what she 93 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: wants to be. An artist. 94 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to be. That's why I wasn't 95 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: too concerned about finishing high school. You know, I didn't 96 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: see how that was going to really help me become 97 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: an artist, which is insane because you know, the perspective 98 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: of a fifteen year old is hardly to be agreed with. 99 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: And that was a terrible student, and so it wasn't 100 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: like such a loss. My brother, who also worked full 101 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: time and did everything, managed to finish with straight a's 102 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 2: and go on to college. So it had as much 103 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: to do with my personality as it did with the circumstances. 104 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: So tell me about at sixteen, you go to an 105 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: art show, a gallery show, and are drawn to the 106 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: work a particular work by an artist. Tell me about 107 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: that moment. 108 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 2: Well, actually he had the work in his wife's gallery 109 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: right the Pajer. Arnold Meshi's had some artwork in a 110 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: gallery and I had seen it in the window when 111 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: I was driving by, was on Ventura Boulevard, and you know, 112 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: I just had not seen that level of draftsmanship outside 113 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: of museums. And I was just dumbstruck because I'd only 114 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: seen that kind of like crappy art of seascapes, and 115 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: you know, I just hadn't you know. I thought that 116 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: was like living art, and then dead art was the 117 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: art you saw in the museum. And suddenly I realized, no, 118 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: there's an entire world of that outside, and I became 119 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: riveted by it. And so I had my mom call 120 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: the gallery and speak to Arnold's wife and see if 121 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: he would teach a fourteen you know, at the time, 122 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: I probably was sixteen, if I could go into a 123 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 2: life drawing class. So I changed from a lesser teacher 124 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: to him, and I started studying under Arnold. 125 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: And these were existing classes, a group classes. 126 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were private classes. Mostly there were as older 127 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: people in it. They were retirees, a few younger people, 128 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: but he had a studio, a kind of classroom in 129 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: Beverly Hills where he taught these classes near his studio. 130 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: What comes to mind, like what language comes to mind 131 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to first being sort of under Arnold's 132 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: tutelage and being part of these classes. What was he 133 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: to you initially? 134 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, first, he was the first real 135 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: artist that I had encountered, and it was what I 136 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: wanted to do. It's so confusing at that age. I mean, 137 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to win his approval. I was 138 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: enamored with him as a girl would have a crush 139 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: on someone. I really felt incredibly grown up to be 140 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: a part of a life drawing class where there was 141 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 2: nudity and people talked openly about genitalia in the context 142 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: of draftsmanship. It's pretty different than high school. And I 143 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: mean I wanted to be an artist since I was 144 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: like three years old. So it was this thing that 145 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: I wanted and I suddenly had access to it, and 146 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: it was thrilling. I was flirting with him and was trying, 147 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: in my own clumsy, sixteen year old way to be seducted. 148 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: I could see I was arresting his attention, and I 149 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 2: approach him and I kiss him. 150 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: It's nineteen seventy. Jill is sixteen and Arnold is forty seven. 151 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: This is the year she kisses him, at least that's 152 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: how she chronicles it when she writes her first memoir, 153 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: Half of Life, published in nineteen ninety six. That book 154 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: exists as a sort of forensic evidence of what Jill 155 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: believed and remembered at a certain time. But time moves forward, 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: and with it, our perspectives, our memory are truths. Jill's 157 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: new memoir, Consent, begins and ends with this very kiss. 158 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: In Half a Life, the kiss is portrayed one way, 159 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: and in Consent it's portrayed another way. Who really kissed 160 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: who first? But long before she reflects on this, she 161 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: lives this. Jill and Arnold have this meaningful kiss in 162 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, but a relationship doesn't begin just yet. First, 163 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: she goes to New York. 164 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: I arrived there with one hundred and fifty dollars that 165 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: I had saved up and the name of somebody where 166 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: he had a crash pad where I and my brother 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: could go and spend a couple of nights where we 168 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: tried to figure out how to survive in New York. 169 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 2: My brother was only going for a week to make 170 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: sure I wasn't going to be killed. Well, you know, 171 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: I started out there, and you know, it was an 172 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: impossible thing to do. I mean, I ended up drifting 173 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: off with a bunch of other runaways. And although I 174 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: was not a runaway, it was the early seventies in 175 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: New York City and it was you know, you can't 176 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: become an artist that way, and that was the lesson 177 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: I had to learn. 178 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: And during those months, this memory of Arnold and Arnold's 179 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of presence for you lingered. We wrote back and forth. 180 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: He wrote me letters not I mean they were letters 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: that if somebody found them, it wouldn't look like we 182 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: had kissed. They were the letters of a student to 183 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: a professor and vice versa, and giving me advice on 184 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 2: how to survive there. But he kept promising he was 185 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: going to come to New York. I think that's why 186 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: I hung on for four months, because he always went 187 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 2: to New York as an artist. And then, you know, 188 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: I went back to Los Angeles. I took a greyhound bus. 189 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: My mother didn't even have enough money to send the airfare, 190 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: so I went back on a greyhound bus, and you know, 191 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: I was so depressed, and the only thing I would 192 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: do is I would drive past this house. You know. 193 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: I was love worn and I you know, and finally 194 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: one day I just built up the nerve to just 195 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: show up at his studio. And I had lost my virginity. 196 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: That was a big thing. And I went to a 197 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: studio and I tried to seduce him, which wasn't that hard. 198 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: And that's how we began off Here, as Jill drives 199 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: in circles past Arnold's house, imagining him with his wife 200 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: of twenty five years and his two kids inside, there 201 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: may also have been the specter of her own father, 202 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: who was profoundly absent because of his autism, and then 203 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: literally absent, just gone. So her feelings about Arnold would 204 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: have been complicated. They're romantic and sexual, to be sure, 205 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: but that longing she feels has many layers. It's shortly 206 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: after her return to Los Angelus that their affair begins 207 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: in earnest. 208 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it was so many things on the way 209 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: in which one conceives of one's life. I think the 210 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: yearning was simply I think I was just so curious 211 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: to know what it would be like to be loved 212 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: by an older man. I think that was my big curiosity, 213 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: and I think that's what I sought out. And you know, 214 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: not only was art Old an older man, but he 215 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: was an artist. And you know, in those days, the 216 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: only person who could anoint you an artist was a 217 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: male artist. And you weren't going to be anointed by 218 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: a woman. At that point. There were no women artists 219 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: that you even saw. And so, you know, part of 220 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 2: that whole patriarchal thing was so bred into us that 221 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: the yearning to become successful only could be gotten through 222 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: the approval of a man, and there was no other 223 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: way in those days. Well, I came back from New York. 224 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: I just turned seventeen. I came back, and so I 225 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: started seeing him again a little bit before my eighteenth birthday, 226 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 2: and we started seeing each other in an illicit affair, 227 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: or as I put it in the book, I was 228 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: going steady and he was having an affair. And you know, 229 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: I was very open with My mother knew about it. 230 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: And again it was the seventies. She was also dating 231 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: a man named Arnold who was like ten years younger 232 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: than her, and even though she was very upset about it. 233 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: You know, there was a kind of laughter to it 234 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: as well, because that was kind of funny. And then 235 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: it was New Year's Eve and I just fell apart 236 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: in New Year's Eve because you know, I was eighteen 237 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: years old and I wanted to be on a date 238 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: for New Year's Eve and he was married, and you know, 239 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: at an adult party, and I just broke down and he, 240 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: I don't know, he left his wife. I mean, it's 241 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: such an unusual thing that happens. He left his wife. 242 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: He left with just toothbrush, she left the house, all 243 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: the money in the bank. We just started off together, 244 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: and I guess I had just turned eighteen, and I remember, 245 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: you know, at this point, I you know again, I 246 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: had just gotten into cal Arts as a student and 247 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: I got a scholarship and so I started my art 248 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: school education and he kind of returned to painting, and 249 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: so we started living together from that point forward. So 250 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: he went he was with me all throughout college, and 251 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: you know, it gave me obviously a very different version 252 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: of college. But you know, he kind of went to 253 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: college with me, and I think it revitalized him as 254 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: well in one sense. When I was enamored of him 255 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: as a seventeen year old girl and starting my affair, 256 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: I thought of him as a famous, successful artist, looking 257 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: back at it as a seventy one year old and 258 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: seeing that this was a man in his late forties 259 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: who hadn't succeeded as an artist in the way he 260 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: wanted to, and that, you know, he was not what 261 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: I thought he was. But because he wasn't what I 262 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: thought he was, this all powerful man, I went from 263 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: being enamored with him to seeing him as a vulnerable 264 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: human being. And I think that's what was able to 265 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: allow me to actually love him as opposed to always 266 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: be under his thumb of power. It was that he 267 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: wasn't the person I imagined him to be that allowed me 268 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: to fall in love with him. And I think that's 269 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: something that you know, when a young girl looks at 270 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: a powerful matter, what they assume is a powerful man, 271 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: and they don't see that, you know, all human beings 272 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: are fallible and filled with doubt and remorse in all 273 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: other emotions. And it was only as I started to 274 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: learn who Ornold actually was just a human being, that 275 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: I think the relationship went from what would be now 276 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: kind of risky and grooming into something much more like 277 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 2: any other marriage. 278 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: And also likely the reason why the marriage lasted when 279 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: it was a relationship early on, where his colleagues were 280 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: literally placing bets on how long this was going to last. 281 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. 282 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: At what point did you make the switch from being 283 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: an artist to becoming a writer and why? 284 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: Why? Is the question that has plagued me my whole life. 285 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: I have no idea, but I thought a great deal 286 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 2: about it. I made the switch. I was in graduate 287 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: school at Cal Arts. I had ten weeks left. I 288 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: had finished my DCS, which was a film. I was 289 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 2: going to become a kind of gudared like, you know, filmmaker, 290 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: and that film really made me realize that I can't 291 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: work with human beings, so that wasn't be a good 292 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: profession for me, and so I decided, I don't know, 293 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: I loved literature, and I just decided I would instead 294 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 2: of making a film and having to spend all that 295 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: money and work with people, I would just write my 296 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: films down. And at the time, I honestly had probably 297 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: never even written somebody a letter. I mean, I just 298 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 2: was so dyslexic, and it was such a weird choice 299 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 2: for me. Because I had. It wasn't like I had 300 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: any talent at this, and you know, I just made 301 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: this crazy decision. I dropped out of school. I sat down, 302 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: and I spent the next literally four years, I mean, 303 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: when I wasn't working, you know, practicing how to make 304 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: a sentence, studying literature. Arnold as this great gift bought 305 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: me the entire election of Norton Critical Edition, and I 306 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: was able to read my you know, I read from 307 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: gilganish for it and gave myself this huge education and 308 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: you know, practice becoming a writer. And that's how I 309 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: did it. And you know what, I had been able 310 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: to do it without the supporter of somebody like Arnold? 311 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 2: Probably not, but I you know, he was there and 312 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: he encouraged me to take this crazy journey. 313 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: Is there any part of you that feels like you 314 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: made the switch because you didn't want to directly compete 315 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: with him. 316 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure. I mean I had already left painting 317 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: and drawing early, probably because I didn't want to compete 318 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 2: with him, and I had gone into conceptual art, so 319 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't It wasn't like we were really overlapping in 320 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: esthetics and craft. But I'm sure I went over to 321 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: conceptual art, probably mostly because I was just enamored by 322 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: the idea of the auvant garde. I mean, it was 323 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 2: just like so big and I I think what happened 324 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: is it became nauseous with the app on guard and 325 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: it just seemed like such a it was so removed 326 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: from everyday people. I just didn't want to make art 327 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: for only wealthy people. So I didn't want to do 328 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: that anymore. I probably would have returned to painting, because 329 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 2: that is a history of something beyond that. But Arnold 330 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 2: was there, and he was already painting, and I think 331 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: that blocked that possible door. But I don't know if 332 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: I would have taken it anyhow. We were an incredibly 333 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: collaborative couple. He read every word that I wrote, and 334 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: I remember when I wrote my first book, he told 335 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: me to throw up the first fifty pages. I remember 336 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: having like a complete like conniption fit and crying and 337 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: tearing up paper and just you know, like as a 338 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 2: lunatic would do in their twenties, filled with hormones and ambition, 339 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: and you know, I would do the same thing to 340 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 2: his work. So it's you know, I would go in 341 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: and tell him this was horrible. That was we just 342 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 2: did it. We just were like completely, we collaborate. I 343 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: think one of the reasons that I never felt such 344 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: a great desire to return into painting was that I 345 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 2: kind of got to paint through him. And you know, 346 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: he had written some novels himself, and I think he 347 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 2: got to become a writer through me. And you know, 348 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 2: it was one of these marriages that were very much 349 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: involved in each other's work in a good way. 350 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: I think we'll be back in a moment with more 351 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: family secrets. When Jill is twenty nine and Arnold is sixty, 352 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: he's made a painting that a gallery owner in New 353 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: York expresses interest in. But the gallery owner is on 354 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: the fence because she hasn't actually seen it, only slides. 355 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: So Jill encourages Arnold to roll up the painting and 356 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: they traveled to New York. 357 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the gallery didn't realize how old Arnold was. They 358 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: thought he was a kid, and so when they saw 359 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 2: his age, you know, they lost interest in wanting to 360 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: invest in somebody who's sixty, who really doesn't have the 361 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: long term investment range that you are looking for. And 362 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: so I convinced him to go over to the East Village, 363 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 2: which I had heard was kind of like a new 364 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: art scene, and you know, he stumbled into this gallery 365 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: with these young, amazing curators and he began a career 366 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: as an East Village artist. And you know, at the 367 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: same time, I was just beginning, you know, to become 368 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: a writer. So it was really I'd gotten an agent 369 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: and I was starting. So it was a moment when 370 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: we both moved to New York. Was the mid eighties, 371 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: It was you know, New York was really on fire 372 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: in terms of both literature and or something you don't 373 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: feel today when you're in New York. 374 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: Jill and Arnold spend the next twenty years living in 375 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: New York. They continue to write and make art, and 376 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: their relationship remains deeply collaborative, but Jill is becoming increasingly 377 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: aware of their age gap, which during this time almost 378 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: seems to widen. A once vital, vibrant middle aged man, 379 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: Arnold is slowing down and becoming more physically vulnerable as 380 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: he ages. 381 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: New York is a difficult place for old people. One 382 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: we lived in a five flight walk home, which became 383 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 2: the subject of one of my books because it was 384 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: insurmountable you know, it's an old person. If you end 385 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: up in a walk up, you are as trapped there 386 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: as you would be on the Kansas farm in the 387 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: middle of nowhere, you know, unable to drive. I mean, 388 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: so I knew as he was hitting eighty, I had 389 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: to come up with another plan. And so you know, 390 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 2: I ended up applying for teaching jobs and came down 391 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: here to Florida. But again, you know now that I'm 392 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 2: entering the age that Arnold had entered when I started 393 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: to notice an age, And now I'm in that place. 394 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: There are moments when I think about what I asked 395 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: him to do when he was in his seventies, like 396 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: travel with backpacks around Malaysia. We went around the world 397 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: to these remote islands. He just you know, tried to 398 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: keep up with me. And at seventy I realized, oh 399 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: my god. Like I remember when we would get to 400 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: New York. We had a place in New York, and 401 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: we would arrive and we'd have all these we had 402 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: the dog and all the suitcases, and I would throw 403 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: them down and I'd say, come on, let's take a 404 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: long walk. And he would say, oh, honey, I want 405 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: to lie down. I'm really tired. And I'd say, come on, 406 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: you only live one and I'd like force this old 407 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 2: man to walk around. So it's kind of an interesting 408 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 2: It's now I think about our relationship and I really 409 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: think about what it would have been like to be 410 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 2: here with such energy, you know, asking you to live 411 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: a life of somebody who's twenty five years younger, thirty 412 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: years younger. 413 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: Does that fall for you in some way into the 414 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: category of a secret that you were keeping from yourself 415 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: during that time, which was that he really was, that 416 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: you were asking of him something that was almost impossible 417 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: for him to do, or that you know that he 418 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: was getting old. I mean, he had this. 419 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: Vibrancy he did. He had a vibrancy in the end. 420 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 1: And he was he never stopped working, and you know 421 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: this was not you know, sometimes people will say to 422 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: artists and writers, people who have regular jobs will talk 423 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: about retirement and kind of ask you when you're going 424 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: to retire, And you know, I think for artists and 425 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: writers we look at that question like never, never, with 426 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: some notable exceptions. But you know, he wasn't going to retire, 427 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: and he wasn't going to stop his work, and he 428 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: wasn't going to go gently, But was there a sense 429 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: on your part. Was there an awareness at that time 430 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: or is the awareness more what you have in retrospect. 431 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: Only in retrospect you can see it when you went 432 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: on with people. There's no way to understand what it's 433 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: like to be in a body that suddenly feels finite 434 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: after having spent your life in the body that seemed infinite. 435 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 2: I think it's a secret everybody holds from themselves, like 436 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: he that's you know. I think the secret we all 437 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: hold from ourselves is that we're not going to die, 438 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: or you know, that's our secret is that we think 439 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 2: we're immortal. And until you understand that, and you only 440 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: understand it as you start to see your generation end 441 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: that you know, I think that, I mean, I think 442 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: it's the biggest secret we all keep from ourselves. 443 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: Now, Jill's fifty and Arnold is eighty, and an extraordinary 444 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: thing happens. Arnold has a moment, a big moment as 445 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: an artist, and it begins with Jill sending away for 446 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: his FBI files. He makes art out of those files, 447 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: an illuminated manuscript, and has a one man show. This 448 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: late success makes it more palatable when Jill wants them 449 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: to move to Florida, where she gets a teaching job, 450 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: Florida being an easier place to be old. 451 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 2: At that time, almost all the old lefties were sending 452 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: away for their files. It was I remember Grace Paley 453 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: came as a visiting writer, and I was trying to 454 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: show her alligators, because you can see alligators from my backyard, 455 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: and she wasn't interested. She was much more interested in 456 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: Arnold's FBI files because she had just sent away for hers, 457 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: and so it was kind of like this kind of 458 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 2: crazy time. So he may have sent away for it, 459 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: but he got discouraged about what he could do with them, 460 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: and I encouraged him to keep going. So I feel 461 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 2: responsible for those. It's an amazing series and he I mean, 462 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 2: I think one reason he was able to leave New 463 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: York without feeling like he was leaving the art world 464 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: for swamp was because he had this very big show. 465 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: And you know, we never really left New York because 466 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: we got a place in Brooklyn a few years later 467 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 2: and we started. We spent six months there in six 468 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: months here, so he was in New York I would 469 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: say until really until he was in his nineties. We 470 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: were back and forth. 471 00:28:47,880 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Over the course of their long 472 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: marriage that began so improbably Arnold and Jill's mother become 473 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: good friends their contemporaries. After all, Arnold is exactly Jill's 474 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,479 Speaker 1: father's age and her mom is six years younger. And 475 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: then it comes to pass that both Arnold and Jill's 476 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: mother are diagnosed with the same very aggressive cancer, acute 477 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: maalloyd leukemia. 478 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 2: Obviously, when I first started seeing him, my mother was 479 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: horrified and I was so ordering, so you know, strong headed. 480 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: There was nothing she could do to stop me. But 481 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: as any mother I think would be scared for their 482 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: daughter to be dating a married man thirty years older 483 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: than her. But they ended up becoming good friends. He 484 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: was the longest standing mayor in my family, so he 485 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 2: became the head of the Hushold until my mother finally 486 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: married again. And I think they worked in their own way. 487 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: They were very good friends. They talked a lot, and 488 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: I think that one of the reasons that I went 489 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: and got Arnold as a partner was to give my 490 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 2: family a male figure that was competent in there and 491 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: someone that we could rely on. I think people make 492 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: those choices all the time in marriage. There was a 493 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: really interesting article that somebody had written when consent came out. 494 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: She was a Muslim who had been set up in 495 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: an arranged marriage when she was eighteen, and she compares 496 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: my story with her own, and there are so many similarities, 497 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: the idea of pleasing the family, of of it being 498 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: a family decision. It was very really amazing article because 499 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: you realize that even though we have these contemporary marriages 500 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: where we think we're making these choices as individuals for love, etc. 501 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: You know, if you look at the larger context of 502 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: our lives, you know we're not that different than the 503 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: old arranged marriages. You know, you marry a family, you 504 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: don't just marry a human being. And I think that 505 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: was very enlightening to me. 506 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: And again, that's not something that you ever would have 507 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: entertained consciously, not a million years. Not only would you 508 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: not have entertained it consciously, but you would have been 509 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: sort of appalled at that idea. 510 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 511 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: Arnold is ninety three when he passes away, Jill is 512 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: sixty three. 513 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: I knew my whole life that he would die before me, 514 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: unless I was in an accident or something horrifying befell me. 515 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: So I knew that I was going to go through this, 516 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: and it was something that I had really thought about 517 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 2: how I would manage this, and so in a certain sense, 518 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: not that I was prepared, but I think people who 519 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: take their loved ones through a long illness or case 520 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: just old age, I think that you go through your 521 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: mourning before the person dies a lot. You know, in 522 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: many ways, his death was a relief, you know, because 523 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: it was getting harder and harder to take care of him. 524 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: And I think that kind of relief is not uncommon 525 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: for anyone who's been a caregiver. And so, you know, 526 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: suddenly I found myself at sixty three, you know, trying 527 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: to realize what I had feared my whole life. And 528 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: it was very different than I thought it was going 529 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: to be. I mean, it was sadder and less sad. 530 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: I had listened to many widows and the one thing 531 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: I took away from all their comments was if they 532 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: lost their husbands early enough, meaning in their sixties, they 533 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: regretted not trying to seek out love again, and I 534 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: was determined not to do that. So I sought out 535 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: love again. And you know, I guess I feel like 536 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: I was kind of prepared for his death in a 537 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: way that very few people get to be And you know, 538 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: taking him to death was really truly one of the 539 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: most extraordinary things I've ever I can imagine a human 540 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: being can do. When I was starting consent and my 541 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: husband was dead and the Me Too movement had made 542 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: me think it would have been an impossible affair to 543 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: have today, so I thought, let's try and revisit it 544 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: from today's perspective. And as I did, I started to 545 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: realize that he's the one who actually kissed me. First. 546 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: He drew me to him and he kissed me. And 547 00:33:53,920 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: I know that's true in terms of memory, because that's 548 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: what I fantasized about for months afterwards. It was so 549 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: thrilling to me when I was in New York and 550 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: having a miserable time, that kiss was something that really 551 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 2: extended past a regular memory. And so, you know, when 552 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: I originally wrote Half a Life, I don't really know 553 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 2: why I felt compelled to tell it in that one way. 554 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: I think I thought I was telling the truth. I 555 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 2: mean a lot of times memories are so vague, and 556 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: so sometimes when you're writing, the truth about a memory 557 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 2: is not so much accuracy, but what you're trying to portray. 558 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: You know, when you recreate scenes from your childhood and 559 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 2: you put in dialogue, it's not real. It's not that 560 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 2: you actually have some sort of, you know, amazing memory 561 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 2: that you can actually do all those things. What you're 562 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: doing is you're groping through a vague memory and you're 563 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: trying to make it sound true to your understanding of 564 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 2: that memory. So I think when I started the first memoir, 565 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: my understanding of that kiss was I really wanted it. 566 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 2: That's a truth. And so when I was writing it 567 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: this time, I thought that that's what inspired the whole book. 568 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: I thought, WHOA, I didn't tell the truth, and why 569 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't I have done that? I mean, nobody was condemning 570 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: our marriage at that point. We've been married for twenty 571 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: five years. It was more like I wanted in one 572 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: draft to tell the truth as I remembered it then, 573 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 2: and in the second raft. I mean, maybe I'm delusional now. 574 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: I mean part of me thinks said, if I should 575 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 2: live to be ninety, god forbid, I can still write 576 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: Heavens forbid. Okay, And I were to approach this book again, 577 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: I may not revisit the kiss, but I certainly would 578 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 2: revisit the end of the book and what it was 579 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: like to be married to a man thirty years older, 580 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: because I have a feeling that when I live through 581 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: the next twenty years, I'll have a very different perspective 582 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: on that part of the book, right. 583 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I've often said to students that I 584 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: think of really interesting life's work as a writer would 585 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: be to write the same memoir every decade. 586 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: Then, you know, that's what I had always planned. When 587 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 2: I finished Half a Life. I remember telling my editor, 588 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to revisit this again because it's 589 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 2: more interesting to keep revisiting the same thing to kind 590 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: of go on. But I never had an angle on it. 591 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: You know, It's one thing to have an idea, but 592 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 2: you know what would make me tell the story differently? 593 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: And finally, you know, between my husband's death and the 594 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 2: me to movement, I had that angle, And that's how 595 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 2: why I ended up doing the book. Did Arnold cross 596 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 2: the line by kissing the sixteen year old air and 597 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: looking down her blouse and telling her I wish you 598 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: were older? Yeah, he crossed the law of lines, Okay, 599 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: but they were lines that at that moment in my life, 600 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: I wanted him to cross, to go back, and to 601 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: look at it from another perspective. It leaves a kind 602 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 2: of sword life. But I can tell you that as 603 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 2: someone who lived through it, it never felt sword. You know. 604 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: There's a phrase that's floating through my mind right now 605 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: that I learned in the last bunch of years. It's 606 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: it's sort of an ethical term, but retrospective moral judgment. 607 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: That's a very interesting term. 608 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: How do you define it judging the past by the 609 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: standards of the present. I mean, there's a moment in 610 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: there's a moment in consent where you write there are 611 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: two voices in every memoir, old and young, and you know, 612 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: you go on to talk about you know, like the 613 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: young voice is a simple trick that you wrote about 614 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: in Half a Life. I took self reflection out of 615 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: the equation. The young voice doesn't reflect, it reacts. There's 616 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: the self that is almost sort of reaching out a 617 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: hand the present self, or from the platform of the 618 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: present to that younger self. But I'm thinking, like the 619 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: question of I guess it has to do with the 620 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: question of judgment. And one of the things that I 621 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: thought was so beautiful and consent is that even though 622 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: it is clear eyed, and you're kind of unblinking when 623 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: you're looking at that time through this lens. But the 624 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: layers in which if you're judging, it's sort of like 625 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: society's judging, like present society judging, not the Jill who 626 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: lived through this long and beautiful and complicated and rich 627 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: marriage with this man. 628 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: However, there is a judgmental quality that came for me 629 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: because I've also been teaching the the past forty years. 630 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 2: And if you think I haven't gone across the same 631 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 2: situation as a professor that I experienced as a young girl, 632 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 2: I mean I've had to stand up for young women. 633 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: The culture of men and women sleeping together professors with students, 634 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 2: as everyone knows, was really prevalent, and even you know today, 635 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: as I taught and we start taking these sexual harassment tests. 636 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 2: As I was taking one one year, I thought, WHOA, 637 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 2: what if it just changed the name from the Dalling 638 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: and Sam to Arnold and Jill. And that's another reason 639 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: that I started to think about it. I guess I 640 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 2: wanted to approach the story with no judgment because I 641 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 2: had no ranker. I had a lovely marriage, so I 642 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 2: wanted to approach it without that kind of contemporary judgment. 643 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 2: But it's impossible to because now I am a woman 644 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: alive at this particular time. It was a very complex 645 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: thing to try and do because there is judgment in it, 646 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: and then there is forgiveness or acceptance. I think that 647 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: human relationships are really complex. I mean, I wrote this 648 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 2: in the book. I really believe that the way a 649 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 2: story ends changes the way you see the beginning. Had 650 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: Arnold not left his wife, had he been a cruel person. 651 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 2: And remember, it's not like I was some kind of 652 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 2: great judge of character that I chose a good man. Okay, 653 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: I was a child. I had no idea what I 654 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,720 Speaker 2: was choosing. I got lucky, and so I am able 655 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 2: to look at this long relationship without bitterness. But I 656 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 2: don't know if that would be true if it had 657 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 2: ended up in a different way. I guess what I'm 658 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 2: saying is that I think that there is no consistent 659 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 2: truth in life. They did a survey with fourteen hundred 660 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: women and they were fourteen years old, and they took 661 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 2: the Brigsmeyer test, and they interviewed people who knew them 662 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 2: to get certain personality types, and they found all those 663 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 2: women again at seventy eight the ones who were alive, 664 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 2: and they retook those tests, and it turned out their 665 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: personality and nothing in common with the personalities of their youth. 666 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: People are in constant flux and change, and I think 667 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: that that's as much of a truth as trying to 668 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 2: find that nugget of truth that therapy promises us or 669 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 2: somewhere inside of us, which I don't believe. I believe 670 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 2: that you know the truth is shifting, and that's part 671 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 2: of what that constant change in terms of who you 672 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: are and how you see life as kind of the 673 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 2: most exciting part of life. 674 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: Here's Jill reading one last passage from her Searching and 675 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: Fearless memoir Consent. 676 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: Had Arnold lived to read the page's I am now writing, 677 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: what would he have made of them? But in the 678 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 2: last memoir you said you wrote that you kissed me. 679 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: That was a reconsideration. I would have said, all art 680 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 2: is a reconsideration, he would have said. Had Arnold experienced 681 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 2: the sea change of the meat too error, would he 682 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 2: have come to believe that he had crossed the line 683 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 2: when he first kissed me? Does the story's ending excuse 684 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: its beginning? Does a kiss in one moment mean something else? 685 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 2: Entirely five decades later, Can the love that starts with 686 00:42:50,840 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 2: such an asymmetrical balance of power ever write itself? Family 687 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 2: Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zaccur is the 688 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 2: story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If 689 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 2: you have a family secret you'd like to share, please 690 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 2: leave us a voicemail and your story could appear on 691 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 2: an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight eight 692 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,800 Speaker 2: Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also find 693 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 2: me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd like 694 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 2: to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 695 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 696 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 697 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.