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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't think it's technically murder like if

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Speaker 1: nobody saw right, that's at least you know, That's always

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Speaker 1: been my stance on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are we recording?

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, welcome back to Behind the Pastards a podcast

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Speaker 1: where no one involved with making this episode killed anybody

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Speaker 1: in a bar fight in twenty fourteen. Didn't happened. You know,

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Speaker 1: nobody saw anything right, So we're good.

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Speaker 2: No one can prove Sophia is there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody can prove Sophia about it.

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Speaker 2: I would lie for you in court, Robert.

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Speaker 1: I know you, and I would throw you under the

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Speaker 1: bus Sophie speaking, you know who throws all of us

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Speaker 1: under the bus on a regular basis. Insurance our health

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Speaker 1: insurance companies.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for sure, let me have min Inhaler, you coward. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Sophie and I are.

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Speaker 1: We're ETNA, right, Sophie, Yeah, yeah, fuck these people, we're

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Speaker 1: both having our Our health insurance did a thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people have experienced where one

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Speaker 1: year suddenly it works completely differently and you have to

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Speaker 1: pay for stuff you never had to pay for, even

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Speaker 1: though everyone on the phone says nothing has changed and

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Speaker 1: your insurance is still the same as it is.

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Speaker 2: This isn't a con. We're not being robbed. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: mean to contact the original prescribing doctor. He died in

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Love it all, Love all of this stuff. Love that

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Speaker 1: what they're doing is legal. But like somebody who steals

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Speaker 1: a fucking I don't know, detergent from a CBS should

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Speaker 1: be shot. It's cool stuff. So we talked in episode

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Speaker 1: one two different doctor scal like fake doctor scams, right,

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Speaker 1: both of which involved the use of NPI numbers people

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Speaker 1: basically in one case fake outright faking and case a

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Speaker 1: woman who was not a doctor stealing her husband who

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Speaker 1: was a doctor's NPI for the purpose of doing fraudulent

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Speaker 1: medical stuff.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: As I told you, when I started looking at what

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Speaker 1: I thought were kind of disparate cases, I kind of

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Speaker 1: uncovered through my research a through line between them and

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Speaker 1: I should to be specific, I uncovered other reporting that

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Speaker 1: revealed the through line. Right. I did not do this

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Speaker 1: on my own air. A lot of this comes down

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Speaker 1: to Pro Publica, who's going to be really the source

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Speaker 1: for most of what we're talking about today. But I'm

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Speaker 1: going to start with the story of doctor David Williams.

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Speaker 1: As best as I can tell, he was born in

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Speaker 1: Idaho around nineteen sixty three. So we're off to a

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Speaker 1: bad start already, folks. His early life was promising so

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Speaker 1: far as I can tell. He got a bachelor's and

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Speaker 1: then a master's degree in physical education from Boise State,

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Speaker 1: and then he moved to Texas A and M, where

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Speaker 1: he received his PhD in kinesesiology. Now, as a Texan,

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Speaker 1: when I hear somebody went to Texas A and M

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Speaker 1: to get a PhD, and being a gym teacher, I

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Speaker 1: do think this guy's probably a monster.

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to children. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So again, this is a fake doctor. He has

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Speaker 1: an actual doctor in that he's a PhD. But this

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Speaker 1: is not a medical degree. You are not a physician

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Speaker 1: because you have a PhD in kinestesiology, right. Kinnesesiology is

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Speaker 1: an actual discipline. It's the study of movement performance and function,

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Speaker 1: and it involves a lot of real science. Having an

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Speaker 1: understanding of kinnesstesiology involves everything from molecular biology to anatomy,

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Speaker 1: and of course the study of how exercise affects the body.

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Speaker 1: What kinistesiology is not is a medical discipline, and this

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Speaker 1: is going to be very important soon. When he was

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Speaker 1: at Boise State, Dave, doctor Dave, He's going to have

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Speaker 1: everybody call him. Had been a wrestler, and a pretty

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Speaker 1: good one at that. He was an All American and

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Speaker 1: academic and All American wrestler or whatever. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: the wrestling things he was. He was a good wrestler.

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Speaker 1: He claims to have held a state record in powerlifting.

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Speaker 1: I can't actually verify this, but the stuff about being

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Speaker 1: a pretty good wrestler seems to be verified, So why not.

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Speaker 1: Once he graduated in Texas, he got a job working

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Speaker 1: as a community college professor in Arlington, and again another

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Speaker 1: black mark against him. I don't know if you people

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Speaker 1: have ever been to Arlington, but stay away. I nearly

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Speaker 1: went to college there. I showed up on campus one day.

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Speaker 1: I did that commute from Dallas one day and was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing college in Arlington.

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Speaker 2: Fuck this shit, Arlington, Glenston. Even throwing a lot of

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Speaker 2: this is like a deep Texas couple of episodes that

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Speaker 2: we've been doing.

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Speaker 1: As a twenty some year resident of Texas, there's one

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Speaker 1: place in that state. I'll go to bat four and

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Speaker 1: it's Marfa, so never heard of it. Oh, it's great town.

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Speaker 1: Once he graduates in Texas, he got a job working

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Speaker 1: as a community college professor in Iarlton right, and the

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Speaker 1: a Pro Publica investigation into him describes this job as

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Speaker 1: well paying, which you don't hear often in reference to

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Speaker 1: community college gigs. I don't know what exactly he's doing there,

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Speaker 1: but I believe he gets up to a con and

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Speaker 1: that may be why he was making a lot of

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Speaker 1: money as a community college professor. We don't really have

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Speaker 1: any details about this, but his wife, Amy Lankford, who

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Speaker 1: married him about the time that he starts this job,

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Speaker 1: later told Pro Publica that after they've been together a

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Speaker 1: few years, he got fired suddenly and she never found

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Speaker 1: out why. Republica just notes that he was fired for

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Speaker 1: reasons hidden by a confidential settlement and by Williams himself,

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Speaker 1: who refused to reveal them even to his wife. So

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Speaker 1: my guess is some sort of scam with like admissions

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Speaker 1: money or something faking students.

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Speaker 2: I don't know he does tell your wife's I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's a hard one to you.

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Speaker 1: You might take that that might be folks, that might

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Speaker 1: be a read a warning sign. If you get married

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Speaker 1: to somebody and they get fired and there's some sort

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Speaker 1: of weird legal case and they refuse to ever tell you,

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Speaker 1: probably that.

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Speaker 2: Probably a problem there. If she's been honest. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: that's not right. That's probably a problem. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So whatever got him canned from this first gig was

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Speaker 1: very likely fraud, because his next pivot was to start

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Speaker 1: begging friends and family to invest money into a new

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Speaker 1: business venture. Once they donated, he would pressure them to

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Speaker 1: get their friends to invest in what he described as

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Speaker 1: a sure thing. And the gist of this business was

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Speaker 1: that he had bought an old Win Dixie grocery store

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Speaker 1: and he was going to turn it into a health

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Speaker 1: club called Docs gymab.

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Speaker 2: He didn't grow up in the South.

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Speaker 1: Win Dixie is, like i'd call it, like a second

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Speaker 1: or third tier grocery chain. It's better than Pigley Wiggley,

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Speaker 1: but it's not as good as agb Right, fred Meyer.

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Speaker 2: You're just fucking making up names now, yeah, fred Meyer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's broadly, it's a little it's it's not quite

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Speaker 1: as nice as a fred Meyer. Oh my god, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not as nice as a fred Wi.

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Speaker 2: I would say, no idea it's a California I'm familiar with,

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Speaker 2: like three and one of an alpha beta baby.

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Speaker 1: Four I'd meet every now and then, like a couple

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Speaker 1: of times in my life, other people who shopped at

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Speaker 1: Pigley Wiggley's when they were kids, and like, it's like

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Speaker 1: what I imagine it was like in like the fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties, running into someone else who'd fought at Bestone

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Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, yeah, we share a special secret

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Speaker 1: trauma together.

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Speaker 2: What a reference.

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Speaker 1: I am working on a reboot of Band of Brothers

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Speaker 1: that's just about shopping at a Pigley Wiggly in rural Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: So check out for that one. Spielberg's attached to direct.

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Speaker 1: We're very excited, ye, So whatever is going on with this?

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Speaker 1: Because I think there's some I'm sure there's some sort

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Speaker 1: of scam here beyond just that this is a bad

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Speaker 1: idea for a business because a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: like kind of midway through the deal, after he's taken

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people's money, the deal he had set

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Speaker 1: up to buy this, when Dixie collapses and everyone who

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Speaker 1: had invested lost everything, right, a local newspaper published an

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Speaker 1: article on the whole titled what's up with Docs, because

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Speaker 1: that was going to be the name of the gym,

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Speaker 1: because he called himself Doc.

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Speaker 2: I see where they're going with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can put together those pieces.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it referenced, but I have not found the article,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't come across more information there. But the

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Speaker 1: fact that he has just taken a bunch of investments

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Speaker 1: from their close friends and family and then made all

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Speaker 1: that money go away put some strain on the marriage,

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine, and by two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: after fourteen years together and two children, they started divorce proceedings.

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Speaker 1: Amy's father, Jim Pratt, was a finance MBA, and she

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Speaker 1: had him over to help her with the complex, nightmarish

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Speaker 1: process of divorcing. She asked him to help her recover

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Speaker 1: a file on her computer which was acting up, and

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Speaker 1: while they were doing that, he came across a shady

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Speaker 1: file folder named invoices from a pro publica investigation quote.

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Speaker 1: Pratt found about a dozen bills that appeared to be

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Speaker 1: from a Fort Worth nonprofit organization where his daughter and

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Speaker 1: Williams took their son Jake for all treatment. As Pratt suspected,

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Speaker 1: the invoices turned out to be fake. Williams had pretended

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Speaker 1: to take Jake for therapy, then created the false bills

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Speaker 1: so he could pocket a cash reimbursement from the county agency.

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Speaker 1: So wow, Yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: I knew autism would find its way into one of

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Speaker 2: these shares eventual course, because again it's one of those

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Speaker 2: gray zones where all like, when people are unclear about

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Speaker 2: what's going on, these grifters come in and fucking find

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Speaker 2: a way to make money off of it.

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Speaker 1: This is about when I'm teaching special ed and dealing

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Speaker 1: with a lot of like how the healthcare system and

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Speaker 1: whatnot was treating autism at that point in time, and

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Speaker 1: it is like especially compared to now significantly more primitive

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Speaker 1: period of time. So it makes sense to me that

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Speaker 1: he would think, like, well, I can like fake some

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Speaker 1: invoices for this and probably won't run into anybody who

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Speaker 1: knows enough about what should be going on that they'll

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Speaker 1: catch this, right, But they do right. In November two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Williams pleads guilty and tearing County to

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Speaker 1: felony theft. He's sentenced to eighteen months in jail, and

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Speaker 1: he is released on bail as he appeals.

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Speaker 2: He does wind up.

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Speaker 1: Doing some time something like a year, I think, and

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Speaker 1: life goes on, right. Amy eventually allows him to take

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Speaker 1: partial custody of their children because his crime, while fucked up,

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Speaker 1: had not involved the abuse of a child, just the

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Speaker 1: abuse of the system itself. It is kind of on

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Speaker 1: the edge of abuse of a child and spoiler, that's

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Speaker 1: where this is heading. But she doesn't really have grounds

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Speaker 1: to separate him from his kids at this stage, right,

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Speaker 1: So he moves on to working as a personal trainer.

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Speaker 1: He had been doing that for some That was part

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Speaker 1: of why their marriage broke up. He'd been working as

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Speaker 1: a personal trainer for a bit during that period, and

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Speaker 1: he wasn't really able to bring in much money, and

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Speaker 1: you know, so he starts doing that again. He continues

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Speaker 1: trying to make a living that way, and he has

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Speaker 1: a friend cod him a website, get Fit with Steve.

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Speaker 1: This friend, Steve Causio, receives free physical training sessions in

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Speaker 1: exchange for his work, and for a while things seem good.

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Speaker 1: This changes a year or so later, as he and

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Speaker 1: Amy's eleven year old son comes to school covered in

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Speaker 1: facial bruises. His teachers obviously reported this, and an investigation

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Speaker 1: revealed that Williams had hit their son in the face

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Speaker 1: quote about twenty times. So that's real bad. Williams pleads

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Speaker 1: guilty to a felony and he goes back to jail

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Speaker 1: for two years, right.

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Speaker 2: Just just like did he I mean you probably know

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Speaker 2: the details of this, just fucking hitting his kid. He

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Speaker 2: hits his kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like I'm guessing the kid, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think he's like not he's not neurotypical, So I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: the kid was engaged in some sort of behavior that

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Speaker 1: the doc did not know how to like, either just

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Speaker 1: didn't like or didn't know how to deal with, and

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Speaker 1: he just decided to punch.

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Speaker 2: The kid a bunch fucking dance whole. Yeah. It's horrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's he's the villain of the He's

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Speaker 1: one of the villains of the episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I'm not one of these doctors

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Speaker 2: that says like other people are in DOC like PhDs, etcetera.

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Speaker 2: On doctor. But like when a guy like this like

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Speaker 2: tries to use doctor like it's.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was saying, having the experiences I had

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Speaker 1: in a grade school, I'm not surprised that a guy

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Speaker 1: who's got a PhD in being a gym teachers, like

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Speaker 1: his default reaction is just to hit a kid when

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Speaker 1: they have a medical issue. Yeah, that absolutely scams. Texas

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Speaker 1: gym teacher uses punches to treat some sort of neurological situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course that's scance. This kid is different, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: punch him. So at this point Doc has crossed the

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Speaker 1: line from con artist and scammer, which is a mixed

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Speaker 1: bag from a moral standpoint, but not inherently evil. Plenty

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Speaker 1: of lovable con artists out there to outright monster shit.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Amy spends the next like two years while he's in jail,

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Speaker 1: focusing on her kids, trying to move on in life,

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Speaker 1: trying to help them heal from what the fuck this

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Speaker 1: guy has done to them, while William spends his time

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Speaker 1: hind bars perfecting his next con. So he still has

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Speaker 1: a friend on the outside, and it's Steve Cossio, the

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Speaker 1: guy who had codd his website. Williams convinced him that

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Speaker 1: the whole hitting his son in the face twenty times

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Speaker 1: thing was overblown. He claimed he'd just been disciplining the

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Speaker 1: boy normally, and he wrote in one email, I can

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Speaker 1: honestly say that I am the only one in here

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Speaker 1: for spanking their child in the face. In the face.

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Speaker 1: Do you spank a child in the face?

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Speaker 2: Number one? I'm not a big fan of spanking, but

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Speaker 2: do you spank the face? Is that why you spank?

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Speaker 2: Is the face? What a fucking asshole? Uh?

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Speaker 1: His father in law, he wrote, was an evil, evil

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Speaker 1: man who'd engineered the charges against him in some nefarious manner.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm not sure if Casio himself is a huge

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Speaker 1: piece of shit or just very gullible. My gut says,

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Speaker 1: probably a little bit of column A, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of column B. Probably more gollible than piece of shit,

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Speaker 1: but probably not none piece of shit. So Williams and

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Speaker 1: Casio work out a plan for him to make a

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Speaker 1: bunch of cash quick when he gets out of jail,

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Speaker 1: because he's calculated. William is calculated, I need thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars asap to get an attorney that can get me

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Speaker 1: access to my kids again, right, which.

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Speaker 2: So he can the last that gets the last? They

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Speaker 2: want this? Yeah, what does he want? I mean? This

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Speaker 2: is this is this kind of guy. Right?

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Speaker 1: They think they have a right to their children, they

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Speaker 1: possess them, they have a right to discipline them or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just as simple as he hates his ex

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Speaker 1: wife and he wants to take them away from her.

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Speaker 1: I don't know a couple of things. It could be

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Speaker 1: none of them good. So there's no honest way for

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Speaker 1: a kinnesesiology PhD to make thirty thousand dollars overnight, right,

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Speaker 1: It's just not that kind of gig. But a medical

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Speaker 1: practitioner taking advantage of the hysterically fucked up state of

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Speaker 1: our healthcare industry absolutely can bill insurers for that kind

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Speaker 1: of money in a very short period of time if

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Speaker 1: they are diagnosing and treating a handful of patients. Thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars is not a lot of money in the

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Speaker 1: world of billing health insurance, right, one person can rack

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Speaker 1: that up in a night or two. A thos easy,

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Speaker 1: you know. So while he's in inside, they sketch out

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Speaker 1: a plan. When he gets out, he's going to go

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Speaker 1: back to doing personal training, but he wouldn't work as

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Speaker 1: a personal trainer. Instead, he'd recruit other trainers and have

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Speaker 1: them train people, and he'd remove personal training from his website. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he would use his legitimate status as a PhD to

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Speaker 1: build himself as a doctor, and then he would diagnose

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Speaker 1: patients and prescribe them physical training and build their insurance

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Speaker 1: both for the diagnosis and for the PT sessions.

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Speaker 2: Right now, our system is so stupid. Fucking system is

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Speaker 2: so stupid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our system is stupid. This is also a crime, right,

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Speaker 1: Like he's taking advantage of the system, but it's not

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Speaker 1: You're not supposed to be able to do this, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's a gray area in that sometimes, Like I said,

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Speaker 1: like I've had a back injury and I got some

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Speaker 1: physical therapy for it, right, Like, there's a great but

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Speaker 1: like your average physical personal trainer, and that's a valid,

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Speaker 1: you know, profession.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of skill that goes into that.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a medical profession, right. It can it

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Speaker 1: can help prevent certain medical problems, sure potentially, but like

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Speaker 1: you're not but you see, they're not treating.

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Speaker 2: You're not treating medical conditions. Yea, with with therapy, you're yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're treating injury with therapy and you're strengthening. But there's

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Speaker 2: a real thin line between that and saying we're going

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Speaker 2: to use this physical therapy to treat your you know blank,

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Speaker 2: whatever medical issue, your diabetes or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think what he's reliant upon is that

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Speaker 1: both to the people who are going to make use

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Speaker 1: of his services and to like the people who might

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Speaker 1: casually scan this stuff the insurance company. You know, well,

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Speaker 1: some people get prescribed like a physical therapist, he says,

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Speaker 1: These guys are doing physical therapy. Maybe this is like fine, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's there's so much stuff going on, maybe nobody

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Speaker 1: will like notice anything, right, Yeah, they.

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Speaker 2: Really count on that. They really count on the fact

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Speaker 2: that this system is so byzantine and like complicated that

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Speaker 2: like people will just sign off on things and like

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Speaker 2: and maybe it's working. But it seems like in a

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Speaker 2: lot of these cases you're telling me, it just they

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Speaker 2: always get caught. Is it's like people think they're gonna

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Speaker 2: get away with it because it's so complicated, but eventually

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Speaker 2: someone's money is missing and they get mad about it.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that it all it does work for

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Speaker 1: a while, and you can make a lot of money

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Speaker 1: off of it. One of the issues these guys have

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Speaker 1: because of the kinds of people who are bold enough

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Speaker 1: to try this in the first place. They're the kinds

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Speaker 1: of people who get over confident, right, And also, you know,

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Speaker 1: one thing to always know, when we talk about these

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Speaker 1: guys who get caught for every one of them, who

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Speaker 1: knows how many people there are who are smarter, right right,

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Speaker 1: who stay below the line, you know. So, But that's

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Speaker 1: his plan, right, clients are going to get free physical

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Speaker 1: training sessions and he will get to build the work

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Speaker 1: of his trainers is actual medical therapy. Right now, I

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Speaker 1: know what a lot of people are saying, well, how

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Speaker 1: is this guy?

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Speaker 2: Is this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's a bastard because he had his kid,

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Speaker 1: But like this doesn't sound that bad, right, No one

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Speaker 1: really cares if you just scam insurance and if clients

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Speaker 1: are able to get free workout sessions, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: that's overall good. We're going to build to the explanation

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Speaker 1: of why that's not. But I want to assure you

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Speaker 1: all what I have said, it is not fine. He

365
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,000
Speaker 1: is hurting people. He is in fact hurting you if

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Speaker 1: you are a member of any of these like this

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Speaker 1: is not a victimless crime, right, and it's not a

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Speaker 1: crime where the only victim is some like faceless insurance company.

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Speaker 1: He is actually hurting a lot of people by doing this,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to explain why. I just want to

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Speaker 1: state that so you're not asking the whole time, why

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Speaker 1: do we care about people getting free physical personal training? Right? So,

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Speaker 1: Doc Williams has Cozio removed the phrase personal training from

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Speaker 1: his website and he starts claim. He claims to his

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Speaker 1: friend in one of their jail emails, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why he's allowed to do this from I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know whatever he says in one of their emails.

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Speaker 1: Ninety five percent of my clients are paid for by insurance,

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Speaker 1: which does not cover personal training. I have to build

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Speaker 1: as therapeutic exercise. Steve's contention Cossio, the guy who's his webmasters, like, well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know any of this was illegal, and I

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Speaker 1: don't trust him because of things like that, because that's

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Speaker 1: a guy saying I'm committing a crime, right, yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: But you know, I must note that the legality of

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Speaker 1: anything that involves health insurance is convoluted enough that a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that seems like it should be a

387
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Speaker 1: crime is legal, like Sophie and I are dealing with

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Speaker 1: right now. So I could also get how a guy

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Speaker 1: like Casio could just not really understand what's happening.

390
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Speaker 2: It's so complicated, it seems like it's a wild West.

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Speaker 2: It seems like anything can go I get it. I

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Speaker 2: get how like people would try to get away with this? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: On his website, this is how Doc Williams described his

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Speaker 1: services to interest In clientele. During your initial consultation, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Williams will perform a fitness appraisal to determine your current

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Speaker 1: fitness level. This exam will help determine physiological strength and deficits.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Williams will then work with you to set up

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Speaker 1: an exercise program that will help you meet your goals

399
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Speaker 1: and take you through the exercise program to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you know how to do the exercises and are

401
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 1: performing them safely. Many of doctor Dave's services are covered

402
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 1: by medical insurance policies. In choir with Doctor Dave to

403
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: see if you qualify Doctor Dave.

404
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 2: Whenever the doctor goes by his first name, it's from

405
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 2: the guy who goes by doctor Coff. Sometimes it's a

406
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: it's a red flag. No.

407
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 1: The only doctor that I will take advice from is

408
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Speaker 1: doctor Bones. You know from which from the show from

409
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: the show from Star Trek. Yes, Oh, I thought you

410
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: meant Bones, the TV show. I don't know, I don't know. No, No,

411
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: not knows much about generation sicknesses. No, that's that's Crusher

412
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 1: and Pulaski in season two both find doctors Starfleet's best.

413
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: Really one of them a hologram. Well, that's that's a Voyager, Yeah, Voyager. Sorry, yeah,

414
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: I mean he shows up other places too. Speaking of

415
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: Star Trek, Voyager, you know what else is? You know? Yeah?

416
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 1: You during the earlyats, I don't know, here's ads, We're back,

417
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: did you watch a lot of Voyager Taba?

418
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Speaker 2: I watched a little of the Next Generation, and that

419
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: was the only Star Trek I ever watched. I recognized

420
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 2: inherently the difference in how Star Trek is probably intrinsically

421
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,439
Speaker 2: a better product than Star Wars. But I am so

422
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 2: simple minded that I could only handle one fandom at

423
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: a time. So I was a Star Wars guy, and

424
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: I could only do the Next Generation, which I loved,

425
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: by the way, that was fantastic. I think, you know, John, Look,

426
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 2: McCarter is one of the best characters you know on

427
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: film or TV. I love the guy, but yeah, I

428
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: can't get into the other stuff, Like there was one

429
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 2: with a black hole and yeah, I mean that was

430
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 2: and there was a one where they went to San Francisco,

431
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: I saw that one.

432
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Speaker 1: And there was the one where they go back in time,

433
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Speaker 1: the one with a whale. Ah, that was one of

434
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: the Yeah, go into San Francisco. Yeah, they go. Well,

435
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: there's one where they go back in time to save

436
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: the whales. There's one in DS nine where they wind

437
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: up and it's like twenty twenty four riots and stuff.

438
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: And then there's one where they go back in time

439
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: to the eighteen hundreds and Mark Twain is a major character.

440
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: That one's a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

441
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: I could see them in the hall room or whatever. Yeah,

442
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: they're danger room whatever they called it.

443
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: Oh, no, they're in actual San Francisco in the eighteen

444
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: eighties or whatever. No, they they meet real Mark Twain

445
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: and he travels into the future and gets to go

446
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 1: to space.

447
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: Fucking actors love playing Mark Twain. They just love playing

448
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 2: Mark Twain. Oh.

449
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: The actor in those episodes playing Twain is just absolutely

450
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: chewing the scenery.

451
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: He's having a great fucking tea. They love it.

452
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're back now. You can see how a

453
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: lot of decent people could fall for this.

454
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: Right.

455
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: It's great to be able to have a physical trainer,

456
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: but expensive. You know, some guys like, Hey, your insurance

457
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: will pay for it?

458
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: Why not?

459
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: And you can even see how it would make sense

460
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 1: to somebody, right, Obviously it's good to work out that

461
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: can prevent certain health problems. Maybe my insurance is cool

462
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: with this because they understand it's cheaper for them in

463
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: the long run. Right, you can see how a smart

464
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: person could talk themselves into thinking this is legit.

465
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 2: Right.

466
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: The only thing Williams was missing then to like make

467
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: this plan a reality is the one thing that he

468
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: jumped to getting as soon as he got out of jail,

469
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: a national provider. Identify your number, right, And now it's

470
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 1: time to talk about how you can scam an NPI number, right,

471
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: because what Malachi and episode one and now what doctor

472
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: Williams did is actually really fucking easy. NPIs are handed

473
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: out by the federal government through Medicare. Both individual doctors

474
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: and organizations like clinics have NPIs so they can build

475
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: Medicare or a health insurer. And now I'm going to

476
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: turn you back over that pro publica investigation and re quote.

477
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: One would thinking an NPI, with its stamp of legitimacy

478
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: would entail at least some basic vetting. But Williams discovered

479
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: and exploited an astonishing loophole. Medicare doesn't check NPI applications

480
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: for accuracy, a process that should take mere minutes or

481
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: if automated, a millisecond, instead, as one federal prosecutor later

482
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: noted in court, Medicare relies on the honesty of applicants.

483
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: Records show Williams first applied for an NPI under his

484
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: own name as far back as two thousand and eight,

485
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: but it wasn't until twenty fourteen that Williams began to

486
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: ramp up his scheme. Even though now he wasn't just unlicensed,

487
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: he was a two time felon. He got a second

488
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: NPI under the company name Kinistesiology Specialists. The following year,

489
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: he picked up another under Mansfield Therapy Associates. In twenty sixteen,

490
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: he obtained at least to Leffen Moore, often for entities

491
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: he created in the areas where he found fitness clients Dallas, Nevada,

492
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: North Texas, and Moore. By twenty seventeen, he had twenty NPISA,

493
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: allowing him a new stream of billis.

494
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's funny. I just googled how to

495
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: get an NPI number and it's like you get like

496
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 2: this like National Provider step by step guy, and you

497
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: fill out this application. I don't know if it's changed,

498
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem that hard. By the way, I'm

499
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: going to do this.

500
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't do this, but it's apparently quite easy. So

501
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: this is an involved con. That's a lot of paperwork

502
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: for a con, but it's not a hard one. In

503
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: order to do this, Williams had to set up an

504
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: ei in or employ your ID number for each NPI.

505
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: Now this is all fraud. But he used his real name,

506
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: his real address, the same set of real information for

507
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: each application.

508
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, and no one caught that.

509
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: No one's looking Like it's not that like to say

510
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: no one caught it would mean that like he snuck

511
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: through like a dragnet of some sort, Like there's nothing.

512
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 2: He just did it. Yeah, and nobody looked.

513
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 1: So he described himself as a doctor, but listed that

514
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: he had a PhD, claiming his specialty was in sports medicine. Now,

515
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: the actual fraud that he had to do here is

516
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: that he had to provide a fake medical license number. Right, So,

517
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: like that is a thing that you think would be

518
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: easy to check because you can't fake it easily. I've

519
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: never heard of anyone faking a medical license number.

520
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: That's like in the day.

521
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could, like if you're a hacker, maybe,

522
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: but he didn't do that. He just gave them a

523
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: fake number and nobody checked. This would not be hard

524
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: to catch, right if there's like a database, here are

525
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: all the medical license numbers. You check it against it

526
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: it's not a real one, you know. I assume there's

527
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: probably more to it than that, but they're not even

528
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: doing that, right. So Williams began taking on clients and

529
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: billing insurers like a son of a bitch, and soon

530
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: he was raking in millions of dollars a year. He

531
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: bought himself a McMansion in cash, several cars and motorcycles,

532
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: and he set to work using some of his new

533
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: founder riches trying to bribe his children's love. And that's

534
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: where he made his first fatal error. He gave his

535
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: kids iPad minis for Christmas twenty thirteen. Now, because the

536
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: last time Amy had known anything about her former husband's

537
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: finances before he went to jail again, he had been

538
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: struggling to make ends meet as a personal trainer, so

539
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: she was surprised to see he can suddenly afford several

540
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: very expensive electronic toys, right, like a house and a house.

541
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: I don't think maybe she doesn't know about the house,

542
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: right she's not living with the guy. But she's like, yeah,

543
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: maybe that's sketchy. That's her first sign that something's weird.

544
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: And her second sign is like, a you know a

545
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: lot of parents.

546
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: I don't know.

547
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: This is a debatable thing, but like, she looks at

548
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: her son's new iPad and she notices an app on

549
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: it called I Message, which is you know, you know

550
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: what I messages. I don't have to explain this, and

551
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: it's it's got a bunch of new messages in it.

552
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, why would I, like, I don't know,

553
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: teenage little teenage kid, I have a bunch of iye

554
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: messages on this brand new iPad that seems kind of weird.

555
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how this happened, but I think

556
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: Dad had activated these iPads and had like accidentally connected

557
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: them to his shit all messages and it's specifically stored

558
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: on this iPad is every communication he had with his

559
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: friend Cozio to set up this fraudulent medical business.

560
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: He hands it to his ex wife. Oh my god,

561
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god, she's the worst and he's so successful

562
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: at this point.

563
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, like it shows you how easy the

564
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: npicon is, that like, this is not a dummy told. Yeah,

565
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: but he's able to figure this shit out so amy.

566
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: You know, she's not a big fan of her ex husband,

567
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: what with the beating and stuff. Goes back to her dad, right,

568
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: who also knows this guy's scammer, and her dad, having

569
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: some kind of forensic accounting experiences, is able to look

570
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: through this and it takes them a couple of hours

571
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: to unravel the whole plot because it's all there in messages, right,

572
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: and including messages from new clients where he is like

573
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: going back and forth. She can see him like setting

574
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: up to bill fraudulently. Like the whole case is here.

575
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: If you hand this to like an FBI agent or whatever,

576
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: you're not gonna like ten minutes to throw together a

577
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: fucking indictment.

578
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: You know, it would not take a lot of time.

579
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: Right, Oh my god, here's the thing. His fraudulent business

580
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: will keep going for like four years after this point. Now,

581
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: how's that possible?

582
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: Cave I'm assume, I'm assuming she said, she does she

583
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: say something at this point or is she kind of

584
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: keeping it under wraps.

585
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: She absolutely does not keep it under wraps. She and

586
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: her dad know this guy is dangerous and do not

587
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: want him to be doing whatever the fuck con he's doing.

588
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: So her dad, once he has again a complete, exceptional,

589
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: very clear list of all the crimes this guy, all

590
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: the fraud this guy is committing, calls Etna. Right, he

591
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: gets him on the phone, He's like, should probably report this,

592
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: and he tells EDNA, I want a report a fraud

593
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: worth at this point, probably several hundred thousand dollars. And

594
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: ETNA says, what's your member number? And he's like, well,

595
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: I don't really have a number. I just and they're like, sorry,

596
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: only members can report criminal activity.

597
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: Hang on the fucking.

598
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: Phone now, thankfully, Maybe not thankfully because Etna's dog shit.

599
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: But his daughter is insured by ETNA. Right, what kind

600
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: of rule is that the only members can report that

601
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: we're being defrauded? Because it seems insane.

602
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: What do you do with the FBI? Call?

603
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Sorry, you got to get an agent who's on our

604
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: healthcare plan, find someone who's married to somebody with Etna.

605
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: Right, that's the stupidest thing.

606
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: It's so fucking stupid. They're clearly just trying to get

607
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: him off the phone. So he gets his daughter because

608
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: she's insured by etna's and he has her called to

609
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: make the complaint.

610
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: Oh we trust you, yeah, her, we trust she's one

611
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: of us.

612
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: They take the info from her at least, and then

613
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: nothing happens ever one of theirs again. When all this

614
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: blows up because this guy does get arrested, this becomes

615
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: a big case and pro publicer reaches out to EDNA.

616
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: It's like, why didn't you do anything about this fraud tip?

617
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, no one ever called us, never happened,

618
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: no record of it.

619
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: Liars lying, liars.

620
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: Funny, So Pratt and Amy next he's like, well, I

621
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: don't know if Ventna's going anywhere, but he is defrauding

622
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: all of the insurance companies. So let's call SIGNA next, right,

623
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: And they provide the same information to SIGNA and they're like, hey,

624
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: one of your providers has no medical license, is saying

625
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: he does. Was in prison twice for different felonies, one

626
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: of them.

627
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Violence, multiple multiple identities.

628
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: The least should be a doctor of anyone who shouldn't

629
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: have been a doctor. Who ever pretended to be a doctor. Yes,

630
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: So next he reaches out to So he does this,

631
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: he makes a report there, nothing's going to happen. And

632
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: he also reaches out to Southwest Airlines because Southwest they

633
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: self fund their health care benefits and thus they pay

634
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: directly for employee care. And Southwest is like, well, we

635
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: we paid directly for but we run it through United Healthcare,

636
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: which is this massive two hundred twenty six billion dollar company.

637
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: They administer our benefits. So talk to them. So he

638
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: calls you United Healthcare, and he talks to HR reps

639
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: from both Southwest and from United Healthcare. And he first

640
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: starts talking to someone from United in the fall of

641
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, and I'm going to quote again from Pro Publica,

642
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: this is what happened. He spoke to a fraud investigator

643
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: who took the information with interest, he said, but within

644
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks he was told she moved to

645
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: a different position. Pratt continued calling United over the following

646
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: two years, making about a dozen calls in total. He said,

647
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: he is not a doctor. Pratt's told who ever picked

648
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: up the phone, So I don't see how he can

649
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: be filing claims. Frustrated, Pratt made one final call to

650
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: United in twenty sixteen, but he was told the case

651
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: was closed. United said he'd have to call the Texas

652
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: Department of Insurance for any additional details. Pratt had already

653
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: filed a complaint with the regulator, but reached out again.

654
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: The department told him that because he hadn't personally been defrauded,

655
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be able to act on his com point.

656
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: Wow, what a maddening situation. One guy, one family's trying

657
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: to do right, trying.

658
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: To really hard to do the right thing.

659
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: And the company is that they're trying to help ostensibly

660
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: are wanting no part.

661
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: Of it because at this point, but by the way,

662
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: this this guy makes millions, he is defrauding them for

663
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: what do a regular Again, it's nothing to these companies.

664
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: I just said, United do It a twenty six billion

665
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: dollar company. But this isn't pocket change, right, Yeah, but.

666
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: It's so funny like they focus so much about small

667
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: amounts of money to them. Yeah, in every other case,

668
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: if you're trying.

669
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: To get an inhaler that costs one hundred and fifty

670
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: bucks as opposed to one hundred and twenty dollars for example,

671
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: They'll fight you to the ends of the earth.

672
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: They will send you to prison if they have to. Yes,

673
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: like in this company that this one guy who's making

674
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: millions off of them, they don't do anything. But that is maddening. No,

675
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: it's not maddening.

676
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: So I bet you're all wondering at this point what

677
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: the fuck right because you know it doesn't make sense,

678
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: because we expect these companies to be greedy and this

679
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: guy's stealing from them, right, Like, why aren't they doing anything?

680
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: Right?

681
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 1: Well, you're not the only person wondering what the fuck

682
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: is going on at this point. The good people at

683
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: Pro Publica are wondering that too, and the journalists who

684
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: reported on the Williams case, and again we'll conclude his case.

685
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: He does eventually get arrested. But the journalists who reported

686
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: on this several years ago was a guy named Marshall

687
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: Allen Right published in late twenty nineteen, but he carries

688
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: out a different investigation kind of inspired by he sees

689
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: what's happening with Williams, and he's like, why the fuck

690
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: do none of these companies want to do anything.

691
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: To stop this?

692
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: Why is it so easy to commit fraud and let

693
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: have an insurance company, let you get away with it.

694
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: And the conclusion of this further the second investigation he

695
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: publishes is that insurance companies have no interest in stopping

696
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: or even being aware of most of the fraud that

697
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: happens on their networks.

698
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 2: Right.

699
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: They do not care and they do not want to

700
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: be told about it. This may seem counterintuitive to you. Again,

701
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: these are very greedy or famously greedy organizations, and medical

702
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: fraud is estimated to make up at least ten percent

703
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: of the one point two trillion dollars in health insurance

704
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: spending this year. Right, that's not an insignificant amount of money.

705
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Wouldn't they want to stop that?

706
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: Right?

707
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: Well, Marshall reaches out to United as well as part

708
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: of this later investigation, and here's what he writes. A

709
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: United spokesperson said, I couldn't speak to a fraud investigator

710
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: because we do not want to make that information public

711
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: that would make it easier for those intent on engaging

712
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: in fraud to commit these crimes.

713
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 2: She said.

714
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: The insurer uses analytics to flag potentially fraudulent billing and

715
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: in some cases physically verifies that medical offices exist with

716
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: that scant response. I plunged into the daunting thicket of

717
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: agencies that are supposed to oversee the fight against health

718
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: care fraud, each divided by region and responsibility. I contacted

719
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: insurance regulators in every state and interviewed more than fifty

720
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: other experts, including prosecutors, sames, analysts, and a dozen former

721
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: investigators for the internal fraud units of private insurers. Far

722
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: from being fierce guardians of your healthcare dollars, experts told me,

723
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: the big name insurers who sell their own plans or

724
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: are paid to manage employers, pick and choose their battles,

725
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: and for a variety of reasons, fraud is not a

726
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: top responsibility.

727
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: You know what's weird is they'll cite fraud as one

728
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: of the reasons that, like costs are so high, so like,

729
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, to not choose it as something to focus

730
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: on is strange.

731
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: You know, it seems strange. It's all gonna make sense,

732
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: evil sense. And I do want to shout out again

733
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: Marshall Allen, the pro public investigator. The article he wrote

734
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: on Doc Williams is very good. The article he writes

735
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: on why fraud doesn't get investigated, It's one of the

736
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: best pieces of medical journalism i've ever read. It's a

737
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: really really good article. Infuriating, but it's very good. Now,

738
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: I want to look at the numbers here, kavem right,

739
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: because that really helps tell the story of how little

740
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: these companies care about fraud. So, California, obviously is the

741
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: most populous state in the Union. There are about fourteen

742
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: point four million Californians on private insurance, which is something

743
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: like ten percent of the nation's total. So Mitchell asked

744
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: a simple question, calling DA's offices in the counties that

745
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 1: cut all of the Basicsly, he calls every DA's office

746
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: in California for the counties that cover about eighty percent

747
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: of the state's population, which is a representative sample, we

748
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: can say, right, and he asks eats of these das,

749
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: how often did fraud cases referred by commercial insurers lead

750
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: to criminal charges in twenty seventeen and eighteen.

751
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: You have a guess because of this, I'm gonna say, like,

752
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, twenty percent.

753
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: The number is twenty two, twenty two total times.

754
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: I won't say that because I knew where we were

755
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: heading with this. Yeah, I wouldn't before this thought much higher.

756
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, obviously something is fucked up here right. Last episode,

757
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 1: we discussed a story of nightmarish medicaid fraud. About thirteen

758
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: million Californians are on Medicaid. During the same period of

759
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: time twenty seventeen to twenty eighteen, the state fraud unit

760
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: filed criminal charges against three hundred and twenty one people

761
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: for defrauding Medicaid and recovered nearly one hundred million dollars.

762
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: So three hundred and twenty one people are charged for

763
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: medical fraud through Medicaid. About the same number of people

764
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: are under private insurance, and the number of people charged

765
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: is twenty two.

766
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: Wow.

767
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: That gives you an idea of how not on the

768
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: ball the private insurance companies are right. There is no

769
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: reason to believe medicaid fraud is less common than corporate

770
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: insurance fraud or more common either. They seem to be

771
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: probably pretty similar levels. Mitchell looks at other states and

772
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: he finds similar discrepancies. In Minnesota, private insurers preferred two

773
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: cases of fraud de regulators in twenty seventeen and five

774
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: and twenty eighteen. Meanwhile, state medicaid fraud investigators carried out

775
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: six hundred investigations and got one hundred and thirty four

776
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: indictments in Georgia. Only three of the top ten insurers

777
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: reported any fraud at all in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen.

778
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're better there, They're so good.

779
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: Everyone's very honest in charging good. It's all the peaches.

780
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: So what the fuck is going on? Well, investigations cost money,

781
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: and soda is pursuing court cases. From the insurance company's perspective,

782
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: that's all wasted money because the money that they're being

783
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: defrauded for, they're not actually out because they could just

784
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: increase your rates and copays to make more money. So

785
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: that makes more sense than investigating and stopping fraud. Will

786
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: just charge our customers more. They have to pay. They

787
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: don't have a choice. This isn't something where they can

788
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: shop around. We'll just fuck them more and then we

789
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about stopping fraud.

790
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: Holy shit, Holy shit, doesn't that make you? It a

791
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: burned down a building, and this is I'm sure this

792
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: is only one percent of why insurance companies are awful.

793
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: Will we look at the whole thing, not the main reason.

794
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: But this is so bad infuriating.

795
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: Yes, So that's what I meant when I said, like

796
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: there's a real harm to what Doc Williams is doing

797
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: because when he brags that these these physical training sessions

798
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: are free to the consumer, that's not really true. Everybody

799
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: in the state is paying more because it is going

800
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: to raise their rates to compensate for this kind of shit.

801
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: It's honest. Yeah, not a victimless crime because not the

802
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 2: insurance companies will find a way to make their money.

803
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 2: No way they're going to miss it.

804
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: There are, in fact, some victimless crimes out there, but

805
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: defrauding insurance is not one of them. Being a fake

806
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: doctor is a victim full crime right now. It is

807
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: very fucked up, and well Williams is a bastard for

808
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: a number of reasons. I hope I've made it clear

809
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: that the insurers are the real bastards. Here in the

810
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: state of Washington. The Office of the Insurance Commissioner, who

811
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: investigates these things, got only one report of fraud in

812
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen from Primira blue Cross US, a major insurer

813
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: from Era, told Mitchell the Pro public A guy when

814
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: he investigated that they don't report fraud unless there's criminal intent,

815
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: which is weird because it's fraud.

816
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: They say it's criminal.

817
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they say, they try to educate perpetrators instead. So

818
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: we do have the enlightened Star Trek future justice system

819
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: somewhere in this country. It's only an health insurance. Oh

820
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: my god, isn't that nice?

821
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god. They're trying to reform.

822
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, you get it, that's yeah, And they will try.

823
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: One thing they'll try to do is put people on

824
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: repayment plans. And this there's a degree of since this

825
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: makes if it's a case where you've got a real

826
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: doctor who just tries to get over something and he

827
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: scams him in of a couple of grand because he's

828
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: in a tight spot. Instead of trying to go after

829
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: that guy criminally, they'll, you know, just try to have

830
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: him repay what he took, right, which in that case

831
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: makes a degree of sense. But there's two things happening here.

832
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: One is that they don't report this at all to

833
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: the government, so the government cannot see none of these

834
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: regulators enforcement cannot see are there broader patterns of fraud

835
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: that are maybe evidence of organized crime. And number two,

836
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: they don't really discriminate between him. Maybe this doctor who's

837
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: a real doctor slipped up once and did a bad

838
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: thing versus this guy's not a doctor at all, because

839
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: they just don't actually care the.

840
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: Fact that these dummies got away with it for so

841
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: long and were finally stopped at some point, probably because

842
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: of the relentless nature of his father in law. Is

843
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: ex father in law just goes to prove how much

844
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 2: more is probably being done by smart people.

845
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: Oh god, by smart huge crime, smart people who like

846
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: don't wind up pissing off like this her father or

847
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: her dad sounds like he's fucking cool and the track

848
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: record on the an iPad and leaving a huge track record.

849
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: But you know who never records their crimes on an

850
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: iPad that they didn't give to the children that they hit.

851
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

852
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: The people who I said they don't do it.

853
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're too smart. They're too smart for it because

854
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: they're smart and inherently good.

855
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: And they're inherently moral actors, just like everyone who is

856
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 1: legally or medically involved with this podcast. Anyway, Ah, we're back.

857
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: So I just was talking about Washington. How like Premire's

858
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: justification for not reporting frauds, We only do it if

859
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: there's criminal intent. We try to educate perpetrators, you get

860
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: him to repay. And this is what's going to happen

861
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: to Doc Williams right when he finally gets caught for

862
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: the first time. It has nothing to do with his

863
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: ex wife and her father and alth the documented fraud

864
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: on that iPad, But instead a client of his personal

865
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: training service, a Southwest flight attendant named Nannette Bishop. Bishop,

866
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: got referred to Doc by a coworker, and she, you know,

867
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: does a couple of sessions, but she stops working out

868
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: with them, right, Maybe they don't click, or maybe she just,

869
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, she gets too busy. She's, you know, a

870
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: flight attendant, busy job, right, So she goes a couple

871
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: of times and then stops. And then one day she's

872
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: checking her insurance records and again it's just a crapshoot

873
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: that like somebody checked on that, because I don't know

874
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: that I've ever looked into mind, right, And she sees

875
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: that Williams has continued billing her company for dozens of sessions,

876
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: even during periods where she had been out of the country,

877
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: like working. So she reaches out to Williams. First, I

878
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: think her assumption is like, there's maybe there's got to

879
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: be some fuck up, maybe his computer fucked up, right,

880
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: and it just kept auto billing or something, and she's like, hey,

881
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: you know I didn't do these sessions. You should probably

882
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: return this money to my insurer so they don't raise

883
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 1: my rates. And you know, when he doesn't do anything,

884
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: she eventually reports it to her insurer and Signa sends

885
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: Williams a letter saying, hey, we just realized you're not

886
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: a doctor and you have built us for one hundred

887
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: and seventy five thousand dollars.

888
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 2: Please get it back. I would love to see that letter.

889
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: I would love to see his response to that letter too.

890
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: Contra to what insurres like Primara like to claim, there's

891
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: no way this could have been anything but criminal fraud.

892
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: There's not a chance that this is in good faith

893
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: because he doesn't have a medical license. You can't lie

894
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: about having a medical license and bill for almost two

895
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: hundred grand and care. So that's committing a felony, right,

896
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: that's felonies.

897
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

898
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: So, but Signa just sends Williams a bill, so we

899
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: starts making payments. But he also switches over to a

900
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: fresh NPI number under the same name and keeps billing

901
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: Signa and paying. Yes, yes, my god, they give him

902
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: more than one hundred thousand dollars. A year later, he

903
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: owes them three hundred and ten grand.

904
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: Right. He's like, sure, I'll pay it, but I'm out

905
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: them by changing this. I'm gonna have her paid for

906
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: her own thing. It's fantastic, my god, uh huh so funny.

907
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: So stories like this are far from unheard of. Pro

908
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: Publica spoke to a former fraud prosecutor, a guy named Elliott,

909
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: who claims that a big part of the problem is

910
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: that private insurers don't just ignore fraud, they fight the

911
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: govern when the Feds try to investigate it.

912
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 2: Quote.

913
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: When private insurers pitched the occasional case, Elliott said, prosecutors

914
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: had to weigh whether the insurer would fully cooperate with

915
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: the investigation. Federal prosecutors dig into the details when they

916
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: get referrals, he said, they might want to broaden a case,

917
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: which would create more work for the insurer or sully

918
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: its reputation, or prosecutors might find out the insurer was

919
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: not doing its job certain things they wanted you to

920
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: know about, and certain things they didn't want you to

921
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 1: know about, he said. The private insurers, Elliott said, seem

922
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: to prefer to close cases quietly, cutting off the fraudster

923
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: and pursuing repayment, But he said that allows the scammer

924
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: to go on cheating others. That's not fraud enforcement, he said,

925
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: it's an accounting mechanism. Again, we don't give a shit

926
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: who else this person hurts. If they're prescribing, if we

927
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: don't care if they're faking, if they're like tricking people

928
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 1: into thinking they have Alzheimer's, those people kill themselves. As

929
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: long as we cut.

930
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 2: Them off from billing us, we're good.

931
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 1: You know, they've done the math. The math works out

932
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: for them. Care ship just this. Yeah, so it's.

933
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: The worst people are in charge of the most important ship.

934
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: And absolutely this should be like a central concern of

935
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: our entire society. And instead we're like, who's the biggest psychopaths?

936
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: Who's someone who's like just on this edge of like

937
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: skinning animals for fun, Like, let's put them in charge

938
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: of it, right?

939
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 2: Are they good numbers? Put them? That's what we were Yeah.

940
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And honestly, I think skinning animals for fun is

941
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: probably like less harmful than this. Yeah, let's less damage

942
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: than what these people are doing. There's more of a

943
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: sickness at play here.

944
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't recommend doing that either. By the way,

945
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: people were not.

946
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: Like saying skin don't skin animal, but maybe skin health

947
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: insurance executives for fun A couples around that. See what happens, Yes,

948
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: see what happens. Yeah, that could be we could we

949
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: could rehabilitate the skinning animals for fun people by sticking

950
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: them on health insurance executives. I want like one of

951
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: those like Iraq War deck of cards, and it's just

952
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: the c suites for all of the fucking big insurance.

953
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: So obviously there's a tremendous degree of societal harm here.

954
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: By holding off on reporting this stuff and actively obvius

955
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: skating investigations, private insurers make it harder for regulators to

956
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: spot patterns and effectively identify scams or bust people who

957
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: are conning Americans. Right, Remember, Williams is just scanning money

958
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: for PT, so the harm he's doing to people here

959
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: is less than like what the Jenkinses are doing. But like,

960
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: there's other people doing what the jenkins is are doing,

961
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: and they're allowed to hide for years and harm people

962
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: because insurers are helping them hide. The most difficult cases

963
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: to catch are the folks who carefully figure out the

964
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: threshold of money under which an insurer will ignore them

965
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: and avoid billing to Egregiously, Williams got caught because he

966
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: was sloppy. He was billing people who had stopped going

967
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: to him.

968
00:48:58,920 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: Right.

969
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: Lie it about having a medical license.

970
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: Right.

971
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: But if he'd had a real MD and still have

972
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: been doing this fraud, and if he hadn't been quite

973
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: so dumb about it, he probably could have kept doing

974
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: it forever. Likewise, if both Jenkins's rather than just the

975
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: husband had been MD's, she might have gotten away with it.

976
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's not a zero percent chance. You know.

977
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: There are other calculations at play here too. Per that

978
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 1: second Pro Publica investigation quote, other investigators say targeting suspect

979
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: medical providers and facilities puts the insurers in the dilemma.

980
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: They need a certain number of doctors and hospitals and

981
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: their networks to make plans attractive to employers. They also

982
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: must ensure patients have access to the care they need.

983
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: So apparently I learned there's a calculation that goes on if,

984
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: for instance, you're the only neurologist in town, your fraud

985
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: may be forgiven.

986
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 2: Wow, great, oh my god, oh my, that is amazing. Yeah,

987
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 2: that's mean. I mean there's jobs, security and medicine, folks.

988
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: For any young people out there considering lifestyle and considering

989
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: what they'll do with their lives. I mean, it goes approve.

990
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: You can make a good money being a doctor, and

991
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 2: if you're really sort of a go getter, you can

992
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: defraud health insurance for millions of dollars. Yeah.

993
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: And you know, if you want to do a little

994
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: bit of defrauding health insurance and a little bit of

995
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: writing me prescriptions for delatted, who's to know, you know,

996
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: it could be between between the two of us.

997
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: I'm not getting my.

998
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: Medical listeners. Yeah, Cave won't do it, but one of

999
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: you will hit us up on the subreddit if you'll

1000
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: prescribe me to lauded. That's a joke legally speaking. So

1001
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: Williams keeps getting in trouble with insurers right at the

1002
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 1: next Finally, and then United Healthcare, and this is where

1003
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: the story gets baffling. United it sent more than six

1004
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: hundred house and dollars in payments to Williams over the years,

1005
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: and then they realize he doesn't have a medical license,

1006
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: they demand he pay them back, which makes a degree

1007
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: of sense. But this demand includes an offer. They're like,

1008
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: if you don't reply, we will pay ourselves back out

1009
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: of future billings that you file. In other words, we

1010
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: know you're not a we know you're not a doctor.

1011
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: You know who you are a doctor, but if you

1012
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: keep pretending to be one, we'll take it out of

1013
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: your future billing.

1014
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 2: My god, you know us.

1015
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: You just absolutely you can't even parody the evil here.

1016
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: So this even is rather academic because again he just

1017
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: keeps switching in pis. He's got a bunch of them right,

1018
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: whenever he gets caught, he's like the borg.

1019
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 2: Right, you shoot him.

1020
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: Once and they get hit, and then you shoot him again,

1021
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: and there's shields of remodulated.

1022
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: That's what he's doing. All of every thought.

1023
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: I have is filtered through the lens of Star Trek,

1024
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: the next generation Kava.

1025
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: That's just the way it is. That's cool, that makes sense.

1026
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: Quote in all, United paid Williams more than three point

1027
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: two million dollars, most of it after the insurer had

1028
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: caught him in the act, but in reality the losses

1029
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: weren't all Uniteds. Most of the fraud was funded by

1030
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: its clients Southwest. It's just not worth it to them.

1031
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: Said doctor Eric bricker An in turn, is who spent

1032
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 1: years running a company that advised employers who self funded

1033
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: their insurance, and perhaps Kenner. Intuitively, insurance companies are loath

1034
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: to offend physicians and hospitals, and they're all important networks,

1035
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: even those accused of wrongdoing. Many experts have said, so,

1036
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: the reasons for this are complicated, and it's more than

1037
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: purely bastardy on behalf of insurers, but that is at

1038
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: the center of it.

1039
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 2: Now.

1040
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Williams is eventually fully caught, not by an insurer

1041
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: but by the FBI, in part because of the tireless

1042
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: reporting of his ex wife and her father, all of

1043
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: these different insurers who keep catching him and like this

1044
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: keep they don't give up, and eventually, somewhat at the

1045
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 1: FBI puts two and two together and it's like, oh, hey,

1046
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: freak conviction.

1047
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: They've got everything on the iPad. Great. I wonder if

1048
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 2: at this point he was still just doing it because

1049
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: he felt like he was sort of stuck and he

1050
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: had to pay the insurance companies and he was like

1051
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: he felt like he had to just keep doing it,

1052
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: or if he thought he was really gonna get away

1053
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 2: with it.

1054
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: He's just kind of dumb because like a smart guy,

1055
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: you got four million dollars at that age you're kind

1056
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: of middle aged. You move to Ecuador somewhere that doesn't

1057
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: extra out. You can live off that. You know, that

1058
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: didn't go into prison. But like the Dwarves of Moria,

1059
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: he delved too deeply and too greedily. The star Trek

1060
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: are we talking, No, that's a Lord of the Rings reference.

1061
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: I'm a specific type of nerd, Robert, I'm a very

1062
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: specific type of nerd.

1063
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So he gets sentenced. He goes to prison

1064
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 1: for a while, more than nine years, so good, he

1065
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: gets punished. None of the guys at any of the

1066
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: insurance cups get punished.

1067
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:01,479
Speaker 2: But he does.

1068
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: And uh that's good now, Covet. This whole story is

1069
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: a real bummer to contemplate, right, kind of sad, kind

1070
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: of depressing. So I want to end the story of

1071
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: one more fake doctor. This does not really tie into

1072
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: the NPI stuff, but maybe it'll leave everybody in a

1073
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: better mood because it's kind of like a good story

1074
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: of a fake doctor.

1075
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: It's a redemption arc. I'm listening doctor. Yeah.

1076
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: So his name is Adam Litwin and he is now

1077
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: a real MD too, But as a boy, Adam grew

1078
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: up in all of his grandfather, a pediatrist, and he

1079
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: wanted desperately to be a doctor himself. As a teenager,

1080
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: he would wear a beeper and pretend to be getting

1081
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: texts from patience, which was maybe a warning sign weird.

1082
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, weird. Yeah, that is weird. Should not become

1083
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: a doctor. That is a red flag if I've ever

1084
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 2: heard one. You don't. Nobody wants to have a pager.

1085
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: They're the worst thing. It's an electronic leash that gets

1086
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 2: hugged around your neck. In love with the worst thing

1087
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: about being a doctor. Oh my god, oh god.

1088
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like joining the army and being like, yeah,

1089
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: finally I'm in the army. I'm going to get to

1090
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: file paperwork.

1091
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 2: God, I get to run through luod Yes. Well no,

1092
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: then people do like yeah that.

1093
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,479
Speaker 1: So after high school he goes to San Jose State

1094
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: and then he transfers to Saint Louis to get into

1095
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: the pre med program, which included clinical rotations, and he

1096
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: does some actual clinical rotations, and he describes this as

1097
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: the happiest moment of his life. Right he is he

1098
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: feels like this is exactly where I meant to be.

1099
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: It's what I want to do. And then that portion

1100
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,479
Speaker 1: of schooling ends and he gets depressed. Right the way

1101
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: he describes it, he just wanted to I think there

1102
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: may be a little bit of mental illness going on here.

1103
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: He wanted to be a doctor so bad that he

1104
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: couldn't focus on actually finishing school to become one.

1105
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 2: It's weird.

1106
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: His actions don't make a lot of if if he's

1107
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: purely acting logically, I don't know why you wouldn't go

1108
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: through medical school.

1109
00:55:58,960 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 2: But he doesn't.

1110
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: He just drops out and he moves to California, and

1111
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: he starts spending all of us time in the UCLA

1112
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: Medical Library reading medical textbooks. Here's how the La Times

1113
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: describes what happens next. At some point, someone mistook him

1114
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 1: for a resident, and he didn't correct them, he said, instead,

1115
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 1: he made up a backstory that he began to widely share.

1116
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: He was a surgery resident who had recently transferred from

1117
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: a nearby hospital. Litwin was twenty six, about the same

1118
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: age as most doctors in training. For months he fooled them.

1119
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: He ate lunch in the cafeteria at UCLA Medical Center

1120
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: and he watched doctors perform complicated surgeries allowed because senior

1121
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: doctors thought he was a physician. Litwyn claims now that

1122
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: he never treated anyone doing this and he was never

1123
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: caught treating a patient.

1124
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: Again.

1125
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: I've run into a couple of cases. It's one of

1126
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: those things where like Malachi makes the same claim. I

1127
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 1: wonder if the hospitals are kind of just protecting their

1128
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: asses and they don't really want anyone to know I have.

1129
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: I didn't include them because we're talking about the US here,

1130
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: but I ran into some fake doctors who scammed the

1131
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: NA over in the UK, who noted that like a

1132
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: really good way to be a fake doctor is to

1133
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: be part of like a team of doctors consulting on

1134
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: it case because you don't actually have to get in

1135
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: there and physically do anything. You can just kind of

1136
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: like provide like talk, right, and that that's easy to get,

1137
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: easier to get away with, right, And that does kind

1138
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: of make sense to me that like maybe that's all

1139
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: he was doing, whether or not when actually treated anyone.

1140
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: He did other stuff. He used the doctor's parking lot

1141
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: with a borrowed pass, He stole a key to get

1142
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: into the residence lounge. He slept in the on call rooms,

1143
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: and he seems to have really loved all this stuff around,

1144
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: actually practicing medicine along with the medicine.

1145
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 2: Which is like davish. He's like, I love the cafeteria food,

1146
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: I love sleeping in the shitty call rooms.

1147
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: It's like someone being like, God, one day, I'm going

1148
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: to be a professional podcaster and I'll finally get to

1149
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: put an SD card into an SD slot, the dream

1150
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: that I've had in my whole life transferring files from

1151
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:58,919
Speaker 1: one machine to the other.

1152
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: So weird, So weird. Man doctor, Yeah, doing rounds and helping.

1153
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: Patients is awesome to sleep at work sometimes.

1154
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the part that we like live with because

1155
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: of all the other stuff that we do. You know,

1156
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 2: we don't very strange. You don't go into it for that.

1157
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: The page the.

1158
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: Patriot thing is so unhinged. So eventually he gets caught.

1159
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: What claims it takes nine months, prosecutors say six. Either way,

1160
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: he gets away with us for a while, and because

1161
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: he does know a lot right, he's legitimately well educated.

1162
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: He's read and re read tons of medical textbooks, so

1163
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: he's able to fake. And he's like the right age too,

1164
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: So you can't just look at him and be like, well,

1165
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: that's obviously a small child in a costume. His downfall

1166
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: comes when a pharmacist realizes that he's forged prescriptions for

1167
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: cough medicine and tranquilizers using the name of a real

1168
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: doctor who shared his last name. Litwin claims the prescriptions

1169
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: were for a friend, which, sure, buddy, all of our

1170
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: illegal drugs are for a friend. What a dumb mistakes

1171
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: A dumb mistake.

1172
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: If he had written, like you know, with toopralol or

1173
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 2: some some blood pressure medicine or some like diabetes medicine,

1174
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: probably he gab a penton script or some shit well

1175
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: like fucking going for anything that's controlled. What a stupid mistake.

1176
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a dumb mistake. They catch him, and

1177
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,919
Speaker 1: at age twenty eight, he pled guilty to three misdemeanors

1178
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: forging a prescription, chief among them. He was sentenced to

1179
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: six months of counseling and two months in jail, which

1180
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: he served. And normally this would either be the start

1181
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: of an arc of a bunch of other cons or

1182
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: maybe he would sheepishly go back to regular life, but

1183
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: that's actually not what he does. He stays in therapy

1184
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: after the six months of counseling that he was mandated

1185
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: to do, and like keeps working on himself. He moves

1186
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: back home. He said in interviews that like he realized

1187
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: afterwards that he had narcissistic tendencies, which is probably part

1188
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: of why he didn't actually go through with medical school.

1189
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: While he felt like he could fake it, and he

1190
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: like ex about himself and works on it. He gets

1191
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: into business with his grandfather who is a doctor, and

1192
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: he's running the books for their health care company. But

1193
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: he doesn't do anything about Like, he's not treating patients.

1194
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: He's just handling like finance and stuff. Occasionally he would

1195
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: keep lying about being a doctor. In his personal life,

1196
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: he like lies to his first wife about being I

1197
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 1: think a chi cardiologist, and she divorces him. Right, but

1198
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: you get that far.

1199
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 2: How do you marry him and not know he's got

1200
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 2: to be good? I mean, I assume he's.

1201
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: Probably good at it, right, He's probably so, but you know,

1202
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: he apparently like comes to terms with the fact that

1203
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: that was fucked up. And two years after the divorce

1204
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: and now middle aged, Litwin enrolls himself in the Saint

1205
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: James School of medicine.

1206
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:44,479
Speaker 2: Now.

1207
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: Saint James is a for profit medical school. It is

1208
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: very expensive, but nowhere else is going to take him, right,

1209
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: I think it's in the Caribbean. It is a from

1210
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: what I can tell, it's a real medical school. They

1211
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: do teach you to be at their degrees or recognized,

1212
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: but it's the kind of place where like, if you

1213
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: can't get in anywhere else, all they care about is

1214
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: that you have money, right, And that's for him, that's

1215
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: the only option, right.

1216
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: He's not going to get into a regular medical school.

1217
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: And I looked at some like I found like a

1218
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: doctor in Quorra who was like, yeah, it's like an

1219
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: okay school, but the only reason you'd go there is

1220
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: if you can't get in anywhere else. And it makes

1221
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: sense to me, like, yeah, where else is it when

1222
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: gonna go?

1223
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 2: Right?

1224
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: But he goes to medical school and he graduates, right,

1225
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: he has an MD. He now lives in Chicago. He

1226
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: does medical school, he does his rotations at least in Chicago,

1227
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: but he can't finish right, And as far as I know,

1228
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: I don't think he has finished it because he can't

1229
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: do his residency. Because to do a residency you have

1230
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: to get accepted somewhere as a resident and anyone one

1231
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: of the things. When he goes to Chicago to do

1232
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: his medical school rotations, there's like this whatever board handles that.

1233
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: There's this big debate about it, and what they decide

1234
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: is like, well, let him do his rotations, but we're

1235
01:01:58,080 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: going to put a note on his record about what

1236
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: he did in the past so that anyone who is

1237
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: going to take him knows it. And at this point,

1238
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: I think the last story I ran into him was

1239
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: in like twenty twenty one, a couple of years after graduation,

1240
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 1: he still had not gotten his residency. I don't know

1241
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: if he's gotten it yet. I don't know if he

1242
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: ever will, but like it is at least a story

1243
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: of growth. This is the one fake doctor who did

1244
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: He did get an MD, you know.

1245
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like there's some legitimate like he must

1246
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 2: have had some legitimate issue that prevented him from finishing.

1247
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was, you know, Yeah, No,

1248
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 2: but yeah, that is Actually it does seem like he's

1249
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 2: trying to do the thing.

1250
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's trying to do the right thing, yeah,

1251
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: in his own way. Yeah, it's what I can't blame

1252
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: any hospital for being like, no, we're not going to

1253
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 1: take this guy as a resident. But I just because

1254
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: of my belief in like the fact that people can

1255
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: be better and like be redeemed, I do hope he

1256
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: gets a chance.

1257
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: Like that's interesting. Yeah, I'm curious to know where he

1258
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: is now. I'm fascinated, Like, yeah, if he is, just

1259
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 2: like he's like some small town somewhere.

1260
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: For it, there's certainly not enough doctors. So my hope

1261
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: is that like he figures it out and is able

1262
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: to like help people.

1263
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 2: The thing is, you need to do a residency. I

1264
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 2: mean medical school you learn a lot, but you don't

1265
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 2: learn really how to take care of patience until you do,

1266
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: like your residency. That's when you're like really in charge

1267
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 2: of it. So I I mean, I'd really fascinated to

1268
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 2: see how he does that. I mean, he's better than

1269
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 2: the Malachi kid. The Malachi kid, like you can't expect

1270
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 2: him to have like on his white coat like FBI

1271
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 2: Female Body Inspector or something like that on it. Like

1272
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 2: that guy was a creep. This guy, at least I

1273
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 2: get the sense that his intentions are are good. Yeah,

1274
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 2: and he wants to be a doctor, which I can

1275
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: always respect.

1276
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: It seems like he's also like accepted his mistakes and

1277
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: like why he made them, Like, oh, that was like narcissism,

1278
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: That's why I did that. That's not a reasonable or

1279
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 1: an okay thing to do. So yeah, I hope, I

1280
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: hope things go well with that. It's at least a

1281
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: nice story to end on, Like it's a story of

1282
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: somebody who's shown some capacity for growth and change, as

1283
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: opposed to the health insurance industry, which only has the

1284
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: capacity to grow in the same sense that a tumor grows.

1285
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: Some listener out there is like, my doctor's name is

1286
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 2: Adam Littwin Mine.

1287
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe, ah cave, how you doing?

1288
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's like every

1289
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,439
Speaker 2: time I get the coming show, I feel like I'm

1290
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 2: like a listener who won a contest, and it's very

1291
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 2: nice to be here. It's very nice to talk to you.

1292
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that the field that I've dedicated my

1293
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 2: whole life to and lost my twenties and thirties to

1294
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: can provide you so much horrible, horrible content.

1295
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, No, we have feasted off of the

1296
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: off of the wealth of bastardrey that surrounds this. Yeah,

1297
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's like anything that is absolutely crucial to

1298
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: survival and also complicated and hard to understand will be

1299
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: targeted by real pieces of shit. Ye, it's the same

1300
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: reason why there's all sorts of like scams and unethical

1301
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: shit with like the big ag and all like the

1302
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: way subsidies and shit work. Right, everybody needs food, most

1303
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: people don't understand how to make it. Yeah, right, great

1304
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: place for a con artists to live that void.

1305
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's the one thing that's the

1306
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 2: most important thing that we're terrible at. And yeah, and

1307
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 2: it's in so many ways, on so many levels.

1308
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: But thank you for continuing to be the good part

1309
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: of that thing, and thank you listeners for continuing to

1310
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: be good people. And again, well, well we'll put a

1311
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: po box. We'll plug that in after the episode. If

1312
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: you do get a delauded script and you just want

1313
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: to help out your boy, what Sophie, Sophie, it's not

1314
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 1: illegal to receive delauded in the mail, I assume bo.

1315
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 2: Wait, yeah, we should check that.

1316
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: We should probably check that.

1317
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 2: Don't send Robert things. Listen to my podcast instead, the

1318
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 2: House of pod do that.

1319
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: Do that?

1320
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 2: Don't send. Don't send fentanyl or drugs via the mail.

1321
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: If you are not a large hospital, prescribing pharmacy, or

1322
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 2: anything along those lines. Listen to my podcast The House

1323
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 2: of Pod instead. Yeah.

1324
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: One of our listeners is the hospital from the show House,

1325
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: so I hope they take that to heart. Anyway, I

1326
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: forget the name of that Robert. This podcast is so

1327
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: over yeah, just like House.

1328
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1329
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,959
Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1330
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 2: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1331
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.