Speaker 1: Y'all, Welcome to Zone seven. Today is a training day.
Speaker 2: It is really.
Speaker 1: Important for me to give y'all tools so that when
Speaker 1: you're helping us work a cold case, you have a
Speaker 1: base of understanding that's not just the general public.
Speaker 2: So today we have got.
Speaker 1: An expert that's going to be able to tell you
Speaker 1: the difference in cause and manner of death.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about wound recognition.
Speaker 1: You're going to get a really good understanding of how
Speaker 1: somebody works to determine whether something is.
Speaker 2: A homicide, suicide, or an accident.
Speaker 1: We are so fortunate and honored to have with us
Speaker 1: doctor Priya Banergy doctor, Welcome to Zone seven.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 2: I tell you, if we had a good time last week,
Speaker 2: then we did. We did, y'all. We got to have.
Speaker 1: Dinner, we got to go to the aquarium, and we
Speaker 1: got to hang out with some experts from South Africa
Speaker 1: that are helping us with wildlife crimes.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you, you know, you've come across
Speaker 2: people every now and then that you know might be
Speaker 2: smarter than you.
Speaker 1: But when you combine that with somebody that is so
Speaker 1: willing to help and share their knowledge.
Speaker 2: It's just a gift. I mean, I keep saying it,
Speaker 2: but that's what it is.
Speaker 1: And in my job, Priya, the thing that I love
Speaker 1: the most about it, I don't have to know everything,
Speaker 1: and I can literally go to somebody that's one of
Speaker 1: the best there is and say, hey, help me, and
Speaker 1: you will, and so all of our cases to me
Speaker 1: just become that much more solid because of folks like you.
Speaker 3: You know. I think that's part of my mission in
Speaker 3: life is too share knowledge. You know, we're forensicalathology. Despite
Speaker 3: it being on TV. It's such a small field, or
Speaker 3: I should say of us right working individuals that I
Speaker 3: don't know. I like meeting people. That's what got me
Speaker 3: into the field. It's everybody has a story, right. I
Speaker 3: think when it boils down to it, we're in the holidays,
Speaker 3: everybody just wants to be with their friends and family
Speaker 3: and be loved. And I think when you remember that,
Speaker 3: you know that we're all humans. Despite our whatever beliefs
Speaker 3: that you know I think should be put aside. Uh,
Speaker 3: we have more in common than what divides us.
Speaker 2: Amen.
Speaker 3: And you know that's what drives me and I'm probably
Speaker 3: you too, you know, the caring, the sort of drive
Speaker 3: that we have to solve cases, whether they be current,
Speaker 3: if you will, you know, a fresh, new case or
Speaker 3: a cold case. It's that's the theme that carries us, right,
Speaker 3: And I say us because everybody that I've worked with,
Speaker 3: you know, puts as side any difference, any judgment. It's
Speaker 3: all about we need to solve the case to the
Speaker 3: best of our ability, to respect this person who's passed away,
Speaker 3: you know, a child, Right, we talked about that cold
Speaker 3: case that was solved. I mean, that is incredible. I
Speaker 3: actually looked at the pictures again. It was a child.
Speaker 3: And today's my daughter's eleventh birthday. And when you talk
Speaker 3: about a twelve year old, a ten year old, you know,
Speaker 3: passing away, I just think about the impact it has
Speaker 3: on her family, the lasting impact and the community. Right,
Speaker 3: she had friends, teachers. That's the kind of story that
Speaker 3: I feel, you know, carries us through. And we have
Speaker 3: to remember everybody's interwoven.
Speaker 2: Everybody is interwoven. And it's so true.
Speaker 1: Like even when you and I were just socializing the
Speaker 1: other night we bonded over my friend a part about Acharia.
Speaker 1: The first thing you said was she's man Goali, you
Speaker 1: know exactly, And it was such a wonderful thing. And
Speaker 1: I know, a Parna and I used to laugh all
Speaker 1: the time that you think we.
Speaker 2: Are worlds apart.
Speaker 1: But being Southern and be in Bengali, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of common ground.
Speaker 3: It's all food.
Speaker 2: It's all food, food and family, food and family.
Speaker 1: And you know, we used to, you know, laugh so
Speaker 1: much because anytime I would visit her parents, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're gonna eat. There's gonna be a plate in front
Speaker 1: of you. It doesn't matter if you said, oh, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I you know, I just ate.
Speaker 2: I'm fine.
Speaker 3: No, You're never on a diet.
Speaker 1: You're never on a diet. Same thing in a southern family.
Speaker 1: We're gonna feed you, you know. And then the getting
Speaker 1: together to everybody in one house, everybody being loud.
Speaker 2: And talking at the same time, and music.
Speaker 1: I mean it was you could have exchanged either one
Speaker 1: of our stories and you wouldn't have known which family
Speaker 1: we were talking about.
Speaker 3: By the way, I was having dreams of that carrot cheesecake. Yes,
Speaker 3: so I don't need a lot of jumper, but I
Speaker 3: must say some of the desserts in the South are
Speaker 3: like no other. And I indulged and the other day
Speaker 3: I was thinking what am I gonna have this holiday?
Speaker 3: I got to really, like, you know, kick and choose
Speaker 3: so I don't totally go off the deep end. And
Speaker 3: I was like, dang, I could use another slice of
Speaker 3: that carrot. That was divine. I mean, it would take
Speaker 3: me a week to eat it the size that it was,
Speaker 3: but it was quality.
Speaker 1: And that's another thing for y'all out there in Zone seven.
Speaker 1: I tried to explain to the good doctor that look,
Speaker 1: it's a carrot cheesecake.
Speaker 2: It's basically a salad.
Speaker 1: But listen, I know you are not about this, but
Speaker 1: I do want people to know more about you. So
Speaker 1: just indulge me for a minute and let me brag
Speaker 1: on you, because not only y'all is she a forensic pathologist.
Speaker 1: She is an expert in.
Speaker 2: Homicides, autopsies, cause.
Speaker 1: And manner of death, wound interpretation, crime scene analysis. She
Speaker 1: was educated as a Doctor of Medicine at the University
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She did a pathology residency at the Johns Hopkins.
Speaker 1: She did a forensic pathology fellowship at the Medical Examiner
Speaker 1: for the State of Maryland.
Speaker 2: She has been.
Speaker 1: Deposed and or testified over sixty times in the last
Speaker 1: four years. Okay, that's over once a month, y'all. She
Speaker 1: has performed over three thousand autopsies. She's worked on military cases,
Speaker 1: NSA cases, and she was brought in on the wrongful
Speaker 1: death of Breonna Taylor. And you know she ain't busy enough,
Speaker 1: so in her spare time, she's also an adjunct professor
Speaker 1: at the Boston University School of Medicine. She's a wife,
Speaker 1: she's a mother, she's a friend, and she's an expert
Speaker 1: for us today.
Speaker 3: Can I just interject before we get into like the
Speaker 3: depth of everything, Like I get asked by people of
Speaker 3: all ages. You know, I get contacted in email, in
Speaker 3: person whenever someone meet to me. You know, what does
Speaker 3: it take to become a forensic pathologist? And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm hoping that this can influence people. We need more
Speaker 3: people in this field. Okay, it's a dedication, just like
Speaker 3: any expert is, right, it takes a long time to
Speaker 3: get there because you need a field of knowledge. But
Speaker 3: I went to medical school to do this, Okay, I
Speaker 3: had that focus, and you know I it was my
Speaker 3: calling all along. And I'm hoping that someone listening to this,
Speaker 3: whether it's themselves or a child or a cousin or whatnot.
Speaker 3: You know, a friend gets some inspiration to follow the
Speaker 3: same past, so to become a forensic pathologist or medical examiner.
Speaker 3: They're sort of used interchangeably. My board certification as forensic
Speaker 3: pathologist and when I function as a doctor for the state,
Speaker 3: it was a medical examiner position. But they're really used
Speaker 3: interchangeably nonetheless. So I went to college, Okay, I had
Speaker 3: a four year degree in cell and molecular biology, and
Speaker 3: I thought I was going to be a DNA sloop.
Speaker 3: So it's still cool. I mean, it's amazing to see
Speaker 3: how far DNA's come. It's far far blown, you know,
Speaker 3: from what I learned in college. The basics are still
Speaker 3: the same, but man, that's just exponentially grown. And I
Speaker 3: was a minor in criminal justice at the University of
Speaker 3: Maryland and that's what really sparked my interest. I fell
Speaker 3: into it and it was just amazing. So I took
Speaker 3: multiple levels, you know, basically at a minor in criminology
Speaker 3: and criminal justice and it was the perfect fusion when
Speaker 3: I got exposure at the upper level in a seminar
Speaker 3: on multiple areas of fors and criminal justice that the
Speaker 3: autopsy pathology, and I said, Oh my god, it's like
Speaker 3: a medical mystery. You know, I can solve the puzzle,
Speaker 3: and I think that's what I love. It's very logical.
Speaker 3: You try to put the pieces of the puzzle together, right,
Speaker 3: You collect all sorts of data and observations and then
Speaker 3: go from there. So from there, I went to medical school,
Speaker 3: so I need to be an MD. Now I have
Speaker 3: a vast knowledge of medicine. Right, That's what I trained for.
Speaker 3: So you can't go and just say I only want
Speaker 3: to do this field, right, You really do need the
Speaker 3: broad training. And you know, I'm always grateful to the
Speaker 3: University of Pennsylvania because they really gave me. They believed
Speaker 3: in me and gave me, you know, gave me an opportunity.
Speaker 3: No one in my family's a doctor. My parents weren't doctors,
Speaker 3: so this was sort of a blind pursuit on my end.
Speaker 3: And you know, that was a great, unbelievably great clinical foundation.
Speaker 3: And what I emphasize is so much of forensics, autopsy,
Speaker 3: pathology is understanding human medicine and biology, both behavior but
Speaker 3: also medical problems. Okay, so how they manifest in the body.
Speaker 3: So that broad based medical training was essential. And from there,
Speaker 3: as Cheryl said, I went, I actually did a one
Speaker 3: year training to be a living person's doctor. Again, I
Speaker 3: need to know what it's like to be a doctor
Speaker 3: to people because sometimes I have cases that are medical based, right,
Speaker 3: not everything's a crime. If you will, people die suddenly
Speaker 3: more of medical problems, you know, that are either confused
Speaker 3: or misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. Some people don't have doctors, so
Speaker 3: it's really important to pinpoint that and what it looks
Speaker 3: like in various people. Now, I do want to say
Speaker 3: I'm not a child expert, you know I am. Now
Speaker 3: I've done some you know, quite a few paediatric autopsy cases,
Speaker 3: but I'm not a pediatrician by any means or trained
Speaker 3: in that field. And then I took the tour of pathology,
Speaker 3: which means, you know, Johns Hopkins is a very rigorous
Speaker 3: cancer hospital, right, That's what the focus is. So you
Speaker 3: know why we have to take this pursuit. Out of
Speaker 3: forty eight month of residency training where I learned to
Speaker 3: be a pathologist, only one month is forensics at the
Speaker 3: Medical Examiner's office. It's a very busy month, but you
Speaker 3: can't be an expert after one month. So I learned
Speaker 3: how to diagnose cancer and do various laboratory things, really
Speaker 3: important stuff. But that's not where my passion was. And
Speaker 3: so finally I did my fellowship. So that is many years.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not overnight, and no one's born with
Speaker 3: this knowledge, but it's so if you want to dedicate
Speaker 3: your life to it, it's worth it. It's long, but
Speaker 3: it's worth it.
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, the crime scene belongs
Speaker 1: to me, the body belongs to you, and it's imperative
Speaker 1: that you've got a good working relationship with that medical examiner.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you about one case. There was a
Speaker 1: female found on the side of the interstate. She was
Speaker 1: nude from the waist down. She had a T shirt
Speaker 1: on that looked like something she had gotten as a tourist.
Speaker 1: She was wearing no bra, she was face down. She
Speaker 1: had marks on her that when I first saw her,
Speaker 1: I thought was road rash. When I looked closer, it
Speaker 1: looked like bug activity. Up on the embankment, we found
Speaker 1: her purse. I mean it looked like a homicide. It
Speaker 1: looked like a hundred homicides I'd seen where somebody's you know,
Speaker 1: thrown out of a car.
Speaker 2: Real quick, and the killer keeps going very.
Speaker 1: Concerning, So I'm thinking sex assault, homicide right absolutely. I
Speaker 1: get to the medical examiner and fast forward it's a
Speaker 1: case of dungee fever, which one I had never heard of.
Speaker 2: And two right the.
Speaker 1: Way that they were able to break this down and
Speaker 1: explain to me suddenly this crime scene that looked completely
Speaker 1: one way was now very clearly another.
Speaker 2: So again, that relationship is so important.
Speaker 3: And I just want to say I didn't get here alone.
Speaker 3: We don't, right, we work together. But I was the
Speaker 3: medical examiner for the state of Rhode Islander, one of
Speaker 3: the assistant medical examiners for over eleven years. Over the
Speaker 3: past three years I transitioned to working for myself. But
Speaker 3: those eleven years after fellowship were really continued fellowship if
Speaker 3: you were okay, that is in the field training. So
Speaker 3: we had a very unique or still you know, the
Speaker 3: office still does. I'm not there, but a very unique
Speaker 3: setup where we were on call and you know, doctors
Speaker 3: are on call, but what does that mean. We have
Speaker 3: a very unique job where we actually respond to a
Speaker 3: crime scene one call. So I'm not just available by
Speaker 3: phone if there's a need. It's not every case because
Speaker 3: I would never get me work done. I mean, I
Speaker 3: have very keenly trained medical legal death investigators, and I
Speaker 3: learned so much from them because most of them were,
Speaker 3: like you, Cheryl, they were CSI detectives before they transitioned
Speaker 3: to the Medical Examiner's office, so they've seen both sides
Speaker 3: and the knowledge they have, it's it's like priceless. I
Speaker 3: took the job because how experienced and collegial the investigators were.
Speaker 3: So Nonetheless, sometimes many I've had to go to scenes
Speaker 3: whether they be suspicious. So in your case, I would
Speaker 3: have been called to that scene. Oh absolutely, bagger hands.
Speaker 3: We take pictures, analyze it. Now, that's not the full
Speaker 3: story obviously, right, we found out much more. But it's
Speaker 3: always better to evaluate it as suspicious and then the
Speaker 3: autopsy and the laboratory studies will help us sort it out. Right,
Speaker 3: it's better to overreact in a way and protect evidence
Speaker 3: or potential evidence rather than lose it.
Speaker 1: Agreed, Always better to go overboard, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2: And again this was the case.
Speaker 1: I'd never heard of Dungee Favor, so I wouldn't recognize
Speaker 1: it anyway. So I tell people all the time, even
Speaker 1: after forty four years, one thing I love about my job.
Speaker 2: It's always going to be different.
Speaker 3: And that's what I always tell people too, is why
Speaker 3: do I like it? Is because everybody has a story. Right.
Speaker 3: I could have two people, three people die of a
Speaker 3: heart attack. They're all middle aged white men, but one
Speaker 3: could have been at the gym, one could have been voting,
Speaker 3: one could have been just sleeping, right like, Unfortunately they
Speaker 3: all die of the same cause, but we all get
Speaker 3: there a different way. And you know, they're still special
Speaker 3: to their families. You know, the families aren't considered concerned
Speaker 3: about anybody else. But when we look at what keeps
Speaker 3: our day to day interesting or unique, right, the unique presentations,
Speaker 3: unique stories are really where it's at.
Speaker 1: Agreed, So why don't you give everybody just a real
Speaker 1: quick education on calls and manner of death?
Speaker 2: What's the difference?
Speaker 3: Sure? And I think you know when I testify, when
Speaker 3: I teach, you know, this is the number one issue
Speaker 3: or responsibility I have as a medical examiner forensic topologists
Speaker 3: determining cause and manner of death. So cause of death
Speaker 3: is how you would describe someone died. Okay, So what
Speaker 3: I mean this is there's no way I can be
Speaker 3: uh complete, It's just an infinite number of possibility. But
Speaker 3: let's just talk about heart attack. That can go. You know,
Speaker 3: what we call is the top line of the death certificate,
Speaker 3: top line of the aucasse report. Why did they die?
Speaker 3: They suffered a heart attack? Now did they do that
Speaker 3: in you know, what are the circumstances? How did that happen?
Speaker 3: And this is the manner of death. So they're closely tied,
Speaker 3: they're paired. Okay. So what I like to say is
Speaker 3: we don't practice in a black box. Okay, So anytime
Speaker 3: I'm looking at a death, whether it's explained or unexplained,
Speaker 3: I need to learn as much about the person as
Speaker 3: they can. So we're going to go to the scene
Speaker 3: or talk to the doctor at the hospital, if it's
Speaker 3: a hospital related death, try to find out what brought
Speaker 3: them there, you know, was it ems, was it family?
Speaker 3: What medical history do they have? Are they on any medications? Right?
Speaker 3: I'm trying to learn and paint the picture. Where were
Speaker 3: they found? If it was found by family? You know,
Speaker 3: you'll often hear I'm sure you know this story, right.
Speaker 3: They didn't answer our calls, they didn't return our text messages,
Speaker 3: you know, so that can give us an idea of
Speaker 3: what they were doing or not doing one of the
Speaker 3: last time they were spoken to, et cetera. So then
Speaker 3: we go into the autopsy. Do the autopsy. I'm looking
Speaker 3: at every order. Even if I think it's a heart attack,
Speaker 3: the doctor tells me it's a heart attack. They have
Speaker 3: a heart attack history. You never want to be so
Speaker 3: narrow minded. So the autopsy's really where you have to
Speaker 3: have a keen eye. You can keep all that information
Speaker 3: in the back of your head. You really gotta just
Speaker 3: gather all the data, right, and then I do toxicology,
Speaker 3: and everybody, I don't care if it's a ninety year
Speaker 3: old grandma. I still do some toxicology because you just
Speaker 3: never know. And I use all that data to come
Speaker 3: up with the cause of death now and the manner.
Speaker 3: So remember, the cause of death is something I can
Speaker 3: or test for. Right, I make this medical judgment, but
Speaker 3: I need to know the backstory and the manner of death.
Speaker 3: There's five manners natural suicide, homicide, accident, or undetermined. Okay,
Speaker 3: now how do I say that this heart attack? Why
Speaker 3: did he suffer a heart attack? So natural meaning it's
Speaker 3: a medical one hundred percent medical. No one did anything
Speaker 3: to this person okay. Suicide is the intentional taking of
Speaker 3: one's life, whereas accident is the unintentional outcome of an action. Right.
Speaker 3: Homicide is the death at the hands of another or others.
Speaker 3: And an undetermined is really that small category we use
Speaker 3: when every effort under the sun to the best of
Speaker 3: our ability has been made and I cannot categorize it
Speaker 3: further into the first four that I mentioned. So all
Speaker 3: that backstory, medical history, that's all what's going to help
Speaker 3: me determine which is best to pick for the cause
Speaker 3: of death? Got you? So it's a long winded answer,
Speaker 3: but that's because it's not a black and white kind
Speaker 3: of process.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, none of this is yes or no. For sure.
Speaker 1: You have now led me to my next question because
Speaker 1: as a cold case investigator, undetermined drives me crazy. So
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about I'm sure the
Speaker 1: frustration you have when you can't determine the manner of death.
Speaker 3: In the industry, if you will, Our accreditation is ninety
Speaker 3: percent of cases need to be efficiently closed, meaning you
Speaker 3: know we have an answer for the family. Now why
Speaker 3: is it not one hundred percent? Because nothing is hundred
Speaker 3: percent okay, And the more challenging the case, the longer
Speaker 3: it takes to solve right or get the testing undetermined.
Speaker 3: You know, it's really hard. And I take a sigh
Speaker 3: because this is where I feel like I bang my
Speaker 3: head against well. I'm so determined to try to, you know,
Speaker 3: give the family a concise answer backed by XYZ data,
Speaker 3: and I just can't. And it's really frustrating. It's appropriate
Speaker 3: in some cases, right, but luckily it's not most cases.
Speaker 3: It's a minority of cases, but darn it. Sometimes I
Speaker 3: cannot tell if it was a suicide versus accident. Okay.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I cannot tell if it was a homicide or accident. Okay,
Speaker 3: it's not clear cut, and it may be the scene
Speaker 3: or the investigation component, right. So the police can do
Speaker 3: everything under the sun, and they still can't give me
Speaker 3: a clear cut answer. Right. So the undetermined we're talking about.
Speaker 3: It can be cause of death is undetermined, but it's
Speaker 3: mainly the manner that we're talking about, okay, And that's
Speaker 3: really frustrating, I think for everyone involved, where we can't
Speaker 3: pigeonhole it because that's what we're really trained to do.
Speaker 3: That's what the satisfaction we get, right, solving the puzzle
Speaker 3: and it's rare, but you know, and these this can
Speaker 3: be a legal issue too, meaning does it go to court? Right?
Speaker 3: If I call it a homicide, that obviously has huge
Speaker 3: legal implications. Now, homicide in my world or our world,
Speaker 3: still is a medical determination. It does not mean it
Speaker 3: has to go to court, right, It does not have
Speaker 3: to be prosecuted, but it often has that heavy weight
Speaker 3: that pushes it into the courtroom setting. Sure, So it's
Speaker 3: not a word I use lightly.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and to explain that to everybody.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it was a murder either, correct, So
Speaker 1: that's something to understand. You can have a homicide that's
Speaker 1: not a murder. Homicide literally just means a person to
Speaker 1: the life of another person, which could have been legitimately
Speaker 1: done in self defense.
Speaker 3: Self defense or I'll tell you I had a case. Right,
Speaker 3: it's hunting season in many places, as it is Rhode Island.
Speaker 3: Two buddies were hunting, and they were hundreds of yards apart, right,
Speaker 3: and they were wearing their orange gear. But just one
Speaker 3: of the Buckshot bullets, you know, it comes out as
Speaker 3: a cluster. This was double lot Buckshot, so nine marble
Speaker 3: sized balls and one just happened to go, right, they
Speaker 3: spread in the air hoping that it hits the target,
Speaker 3: which is a deer, but unfortunately one hit the shooter's
Speaker 3: buddy and the belly and got his kidney, and I
Speaker 3: had to call it a homicide. It's all over the news,
Speaker 3: and you know, I have lots of friends in the media.
Speaker 3: I do media because I want to put the right
Speaker 3: message out there. And I was freaking out because I
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, the homicide. We're just going
Speaker 3: to get out there and they're going to think it's
Speaker 3: a murder. But right in the classification definition, just like
Speaker 3: you said, this was a homicide, but there were no
Speaker 3: legal charges. And I mean, can you imagine going out
Speaker 3: with your friend and this is the outcome to say,
Speaker 3: you know, the mental toll it took on the individuals
Speaker 3: is beyond right.
Speaker 2: And we do we see it. We see horrible, non
Speaker 2: intentional dess like this a lot.
Speaker 1: Is there a case that just stays with you, whether
Speaker 1: it was unique or scary or crazy, but just one
Speaker 1: that stays with you.
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about when I was the primary pathologist,
Speaker 3: not an expert consultant, And you know I don't usually
Speaker 3: talk about my cases unless they are closed, So you know,
Speaker 3: nothing I'm saying is going to be It's a very
Speaker 3: jarring case, but nothing is secret because it's already been
Speaker 3: tried and you know, finalized if you will. So it
Speaker 3: was actually, this really hits home as my daughter turns
Speaker 3: eleven today, and I'm say, being a mother, just like
Speaker 3: you are, you know, changes your perspective of the world.
Speaker 3: So in my fellowship, I come in Christmas day and
Speaker 3: there is a missing young girl found after a three
Speaker 3: day search. She was kidnapped from her home, very brutally
Speaker 3: assaulted in every way possible, and then burned. And that case,
Speaker 3: I mean talk about evidence DNA proving you know, rape
Speaker 3: and you know, strangulation and beating and drowning and every
Speaker 3: connection there could be. You know, it was just it
Speaker 3: stays with you. And that was you know, decades before
Speaker 3: I came a mother. Okay, that was in my fellowship
Speaker 3: in what twenty two thousand and nine, twenty ten, So
Speaker 3: it just stays with you that, you know, that's still
Speaker 3: one of the most horrific cases that yeah, you know
Speaker 3: I have a few that are like that, but I
Speaker 3: think you know, any pediatric case, any kid case, I think,
Speaker 3: right really makes an impact on us. They're just so vulnerable,
Speaker 3: whether it's a baby or an older child. I don't know.
Speaker 3: That just sticks with me, whether you know, even before
Speaker 3: I became a mother, now more so. And that guy
Speaker 3: was a known child sex offender and he went to
Speaker 3: jail for three hundred years.
Speaker 2: Excellent. He deserved every minute of it.
Speaker 3: Every every moment, right, and being able to tie him
Speaker 3: to the crime through body secretions that we collected and
Speaker 3: you know the DNA was run, that is what tied
Speaker 3: him to her body. Right, So when we talk about
Speaker 3: Craze's evidence, that's why we do it. It's not just
Speaker 3: to determine what the injuries were, but it's really to
Speaker 3: prove who did it. And I mean it's still an
Speaker 3: amazing case and out of Maryland.
Speaker 2: Then it sticks with you.
Speaker 3: But you know, when you think about it, oh God,
Speaker 3: if this is how I want to spend my Christmas.
Speaker 3: Obviously no one wants to deal with the child duck,
Speaker 3: but it was how do we get through it? It's
Speaker 3: the rewarding. It's rewarding to see it come to fruition
Speaker 3: and have that kind of sentence.
Speaker 1: And to get a monster off the street. Even before
Speaker 1: I had children, I was pretty good at not taking
Speaker 1: things for granted. But after I had them, I will
Speaker 1: tell you. You know how parents might say, you know,
Speaker 1: if the child says, hey, will you come play this
Speaker 1: game with me?
Speaker 2: Or will you do this with me? I will in
Speaker 2: a minute. I never once said that to my children.
Speaker 1: If they ever asked me to do something, I stopped
Speaker 1: whatever I was doing and played with them.
Speaker 2: Took them to the park, played basketball, played.
Speaker 1: Tennis, whatever, because I knew from my job these moments
Speaker 1: are fleeting and your life can change literally in a second.
Speaker 1: In a second, and so I don't ever want them
Speaker 1: to miss out, you know, being with me or having
Speaker 1: fun with me because I'm going to finish a load
Speaker 1: of laundry.
Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? Nothing matters, Nothing match.
Speaker 3: If you look at my house, it's cluttered, in disarray.
Speaker 3: But that's because I prioritize my family and.
Speaker 2: We're getting there.
Speaker 3: But you know, I think about after my mom passed away,
Speaker 3: any moment I would have rather had with her, and
Speaker 3: I do that with my daughter is like people like
Speaker 3: you do so much with her. It's because this is
Speaker 3: my life. You know, I'm a doctor and I do
Speaker 3: a service for the community. But then outside of work,
Speaker 3: I'm a person, right, and to be that mom, that's
Speaker 3: my number one job outside of being a doctor.
Speaker 1: Because even the weekend we spent together, you were calling her,
Speaker 1: you were talking about her. You're like, oh, I've already
Speaker 1: done this because I'm bringing her back when we do
Speaker 1: our thing in North Carolina. She's already coming because she
Speaker 1: loves horses and obviously you met.
Speaker 3: Both of them.
Speaker 4: Back to you, I got a year long Georgia Aquarium
Speaker 4: membership so I can both come in and see you
Speaker 4: guys at the station again and maybe share some knowledge
Speaker 4: and then go to the aquarium.
Speaker 1: And I got to tell you my Chief of police
Speaker 1: literally came back to me and said, I want to
Speaker 1: be sure I really meet her and wanted me to
Speaker 1: bring you back.
Speaker 2: Remember when I said, did you meet you?
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I felt that I didn't realize that because
Speaker 3: I also feel like that's funny because I would never
Speaker 3: want to take too much of the chief time.
Speaker 1: That's so funny, and so he you know, he was
Speaker 1: so taken just by your level.
Speaker 2: And it's such a great thing. I'm telling you.
Speaker 1: Because you know, to be a police officer, you can
Speaker 1: have that job with a ged So again, to have
Speaker 1: somebody like you willing to take a phone call, willing
Speaker 1: to say, hey, I will walk.
Speaker 2: You through this. Go look for this and this and this.
Speaker 2: It's a god, there's all there is to it.
Speaker 3: But I just, you know the way, I do want
Speaker 3: to say something that and I truly believe this. It's
Speaker 3: not just about the letters behind anybody's name, because some
Speaker 3: of the police officers I've worked with, I mean, the
Speaker 3: best cops don't necessarily they have experience, right, which doesn't
Speaker 3: come in the classroom necessarily.
Speaker 1: Also common sense and street wise those are things you
Speaker 1: can't teach.
Speaker 3: No, And honestly, the best chief of police I worked with,
Speaker 3: he's now in DC, I think with the DOJ Colonel
Speaker 3: Clements in Providence. He was a beat cop. He started
Speaker 3: at the beat level, he worked the roughest neighborhoods and
Speaker 3: worked his way up. And you know what, the respect
Speaker 3: and not like you both had the people's respect for
Speaker 3: you know, his colleagues and other officers respect because he
Speaker 3: was an amazing bridge to the community. Right, he's walked
Speaker 3: the walk.
Speaker 2: But that's how I felt about you. And that's what
Speaker 2: I'm say saying.
Speaker 1: You were so kind to my children, You were kind
Speaker 1: to all the officers.
Speaker 2: You were kind to the other experts, and it goes we're.
Speaker 3: There as a group. I don't you know, we all Okay,
Speaker 3: I can't be a pathologist. I can't go to court
Speaker 3: without my degrees and my board certifications. Right. That's really
Speaker 3: like not only the knowledge, but that's the legitimate legitimacy
Speaker 3: I bring to my testimony. Right, If I don't have
Speaker 3: the education and the board certification and all those letters,
Speaker 3: no one's gonna believe me. Right, how do you get
Speaker 3: taken seriously? But at the same time, there's no one upmanship,
Speaker 3: right because we're all working together.
Speaker 2: And it takes every person. It takes everyone, every person.
Speaker 3: And I always I always said, so Rhode Island is
Speaker 3: great about taking the small estate and chopping it up
Speaker 3: into confetti. Okay, And there's thirty seven different police departments
Speaker 3: or something, you know, believe you me thirty one thirty seven,
Speaker 3: I mean over thirty. And I had a peron in
Speaker 3: each department. If I needed something, I would call them,
Speaker 3: and they always have the working relationship with me. Hey, Doc,
Speaker 3: I need something, and I sometimes I say, hey, that's
Speaker 3: not my cake. You should talk to the original doctor.
Speaker 3: But sometimes you know, off the cuff. I could give them,
Speaker 3: you know, an answer, or they would ask me. And
Speaker 3: it's amazing because you know, they respected me, but I
Speaker 3: also respected them. They know their territory, they have experience
Speaker 3: that I don't, right, So I don't think it's you know,
Speaker 3: I have such a collegial relationship and I worked on
Speaker 3: building those because I knew that any work that I do,
Speaker 3: in any case that I handle or that the office handled,
Speaker 3: is it's better handled because of those relationships.
Speaker 1: Amen, listen, I'm not going to take any more time
Speaker 1: away from your baby.
Speaker 3: You go enjoy that child on vacation. Today's her birthday.
Speaker 2: Yes, go celebrate that eleven year old.
Speaker 1: What a tremendous, tremendous opportunity to just love her and
Speaker 1: be with her.
Speaker 2: But I just have to say again, all of.
Speaker 1: Those counties in Boston and Rhode Island and Maryland, everything
Speaker 1: you have done. I always end Zone seven with a quote,
Speaker 1: So here's the quote, thinking of you. We have sixty
Speaker 1: two counties in New York State, and each has its
Speaker 1: own system of death investigation.
Speaker 2: Doctor Michael Biden.
Speaker 1: Doctor, thank you so much for being here. Happy holidays,
Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, happy holidays. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.