WEBVTT - Decoding Death with Forensic Pathologist, Dr. Priya Banerjee 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:13.160 Y'all, Welcome to Zone seven. Today is a training day. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.080 It is really. 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.720 Important for me to give y'all tools so that when 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.680 you're helping us work a cold case, you have a 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.639 base of understanding that's not just the general public. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.160 So today we have got. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.000 An expert that's going to be able to tell you 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.840 the difference in cause and manner of death. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.360 We're going to talk about wound recognition. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.839 You're going to get a really good understanding of how 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.559 somebody works to determine whether something is. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.360 A homicide, suicide, or an accident. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.960 We are so fortunate and honored to have with us 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.520 doctor Priya Banergy doctor, Welcome to Zone seven. 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:57.400 Oh, I'm honored to be here. 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.000 I tell you, if we had a good time last week, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.040 then we did. We did, y'all. We got to have. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.360 Dinner, we got to go to the aquarium, and we 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.200 got to hang out with some experts from South Africa 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.960 that are helping us with wildlife crimes. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.600 And I'm going to tell you, you know, you've come across 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:20.280 people every now and then that you know might be 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:21.280 smarter than you. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.120 But when you combine that with somebody that is so 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.959 willing to help and share their knowledge. 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.720 It's just a gift. I mean, I keep saying it, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:32.759 but that's what it is. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.240 And in my job, Priya, the thing that I love 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.440 the most about it, I don't have to know everything, 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.600 and I can literally go to somebody that's one of 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.320 the best there is and say, hey, help me, and 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.800 you will, and so all of our cases to me 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.840 just become that much more solid because of folks like you. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.520 You know. I think that's part of my mission in 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:04.040 life is too share knowledge. You know, we're forensicalathology. Despite 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.440 it being on TV. It's such a small field, or 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.160 I should say of us right working individuals that I 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.680 don't know. I like meeting people. That's what got me 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.280 into the field. It's everybody has a story, right. I 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.160 think when it boils down to it, we're in the holidays, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.520 everybody just wants to be with their friends and family 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.520 and be loved. And I think when you remember that, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.040 you know that we're all humans. Despite our whatever beliefs 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.639 that you know I think should be put aside. Uh, 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.240 we have more in common than what divides us. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:36.760 Amen. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.639 And you know that's what drives me and I'm probably 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.040 you too, you know, the caring, the sort of drive 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.400 that we have to solve cases, whether they be current, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:49.560 if you will, you know, a fresh, new case or 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:54.720 a cold case. It's that's the theme that carries us, right, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.880 And I say us because everybody that I've worked with, 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.120 you know, puts as side any difference, any judgment. It's 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.600 all about we need to solve the case to the 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.480 best of our ability, to respect this person who's passed away, 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.840 you know, a child, Right, we talked about that cold 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.240 case that was solved. I mean, that is incredible. I 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.280 actually looked at the pictures again. It was a child. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:24.480 And today's my daughter's eleventh birthday. And when you talk 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.600 about a twelve year old, a ten year old, you know, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.280 passing away, I just think about the impact it has 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.400 on her family, the lasting impact and the community. Right, 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.280 she had friends, teachers. That's the kind of story that 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.800 I feel, you know, carries us through. And we have 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.120 to remember everybody's interwoven. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.400 Everybody is interwoven. And it's so true. 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.160 Like even when you and I were just socializing the 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.200 other night we bonded over my friend a part about Acharia. 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.640 The first thing you said was she's man Goali, you 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.480 know exactly, And it was such a wonderful thing. And 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:02.800 I know, a Parna and I used to laugh all 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.800 the time that you think we. 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:05.880 Are worlds apart. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.800 But being Southern and be in Bengali, there's a lot 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.560 of common ground. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:13.200 It's all food. 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.279 It's all food, food and family, food and family. 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:19.640 And you know, we used to, you know, laugh so 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.520 much because anytime I would visit her parents, I mean, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.920 you're gonna eat. There's gonna be a plate in front 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.640 of you. It doesn't matter if you said, oh, no, no, no, 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:28.880 I you know, I just ate. 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:29.520 I'm fine. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.320 No, You're never on a diet. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.160 You're never on a diet. Same thing in a southern family. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.080 We're gonna feed you, you know. And then the getting 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.960 together to everybody in one house, everybody being loud. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.560 And talking at the same time, and music. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.640 I mean it was you could have exchanged either one 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.880 of our stories and you wouldn't have known which family 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:48.839 we were talking about. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.360 By the way, I was having dreams of that carrot cheesecake. Yes, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.800 so I don't need a lot of jumper, but I 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.200 must say some of the desserts in the South are 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.839 like no other. And I indulged and the other day 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.320 I was thinking what am I gonna have this holiday? 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.799 I got to really, like, you know, kick and choose 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.839 so I don't totally go off the deep end. And 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.400 I was like, dang, I could use another slice of 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.920 that carrot. That was divine. I mean, it would take 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.320 me a week to eat it the size that it was, 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:17.919 but it was quality. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.400 And that's another thing for y'all out there in Zone seven. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.320 I tried to explain to the good doctor that look, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.600 it's a carrot cheesecake. 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.440 It's basically a salad. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.920 But listen, I know you are not about this, but 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.080 I do want people to know more about you. So 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.839 just indulge me for a minute and let me brag 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:42.120 on you, because not only y'all is she a forensic pathologist. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.160 She is an expert in. 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.039 Homicides, autopsies, cause. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:51.479 And manner of death, wound interpretation, crime scene analysis. She 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.760 was educated as a Doctor of Medicine at the University 0:05:55.800 --> 0:06:01.640 of Pennsylvania. She did a pathology residency at the Johns Hopkins. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:07.000 She did a forensic pathology fellowship at the Medical Examiner 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:08.520 for the State of Maryland. 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:10.200 She has been. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:15.159 Deposed and or testified over sixty times in the last 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.080 four years. Okay, that's over once a month, y'all. She 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:24.880 has performed over three thousand autopsies. She's worked on military cases, 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.599 NSA cases, and she was brought in on the wrongful 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.360 death of Breonna Taylor. And you know she ain't busy enough, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.640 so in her spare time, she's also an adjunct professor 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.800 at the Boston University School of Medicine. She's a wife, 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.600 she's a mother, she's a friend, and she's an expert 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:45.799 for us today. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.960 Can I just interject before we get into like the 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:53.560 depth of everything, Like I get asked by people of 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.280 all ages. You know, I get contacted in email, in 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.000 person whenever someone meet to me. You know, what does 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.159 it take to become a forensic pathologist? And you know, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.440 I'm hoping that this can influence people. We need more 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.600 people in this field. Okay, it's a dedication, just like 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.360 any expert is, right, it takes a long time to 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.320 get there because you need a field of knowledge. But 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:25.320 I went to medical school to do this, Okay, I 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.240 had that focus, and you know I it was my 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:34.240 calling all along. And I'm hoping that someone listening to this, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:39.000 whether it's themselves or a child or a cousin or whatnot. 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.240 You know, a friend gets some inspiration to follow the 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:50.320 same past, so to become a forensic pathologist or medical examiner. 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:55.280 They're sort of used interchangeably. My board certification as forensic 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.880 pathologist and when I function as a doctor for the state, 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.680 it was a medical examiner position. But they're really used 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:08.360 interchangeably nonetheless. So I went to college, Okay, I had 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:13.400 a four year degree in cell and molecular biology, and 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.880 I thought I was going to be a DNA sloop. 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.800 So it's still cool. I mean, it's amazing to see 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.960 how far DNA's come. It's far far blown, you know, 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.880 from what I learned in college. The basics are still 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:32.120 the same, but man, that's just exponentially grown. And I 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.280 was a minor in criminal justice at the University of 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.240 Maryland and that's what really sparked my interest. I fell 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:44.200 into it and it was just amazing. So I took 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.200 multiple levels, you know, basically at a minor in criminology 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.439 and criminal justice and it was the perfect fusion when 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.520 I got exposure at the upper level in a seminar 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.160 on multiple areas of fors and criminal justice that the 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.320 autopsy pathology, and I said, Oh my god, it's like 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.520 a medical mystery. You know, I can solve the puzzle, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.640 and I think that's what I love. It's very logical. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.839 You try to put the pieces of the puzzle together, right, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.160 You collect all sorts of data and observations and then 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.640 go from there. So from there, I went to medical school, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.080 so I need to be an MD. Now I have 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.640 a vast knowledge of medicine. Right, That's what I trained for. 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:32.719 So you can't go and just say I only want 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.280 to do this field, right, You really do need the 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.800 broad training. And you know, I'm always grateful to the 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.640 University of Pennsylvania because they really gave me. They believed 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.080 in me and gave me, you know, gave me an opportunity. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.160 No one in my family's a doctor. My parents weren't doctors, 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.640 so this was sort of a blind pursuit on my end. 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:59.760 And you know, that was a great, unbelievably great clinical foundation. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:06.439 And what I emphasize is so much of forensics, autopsy, 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:11.440 pathology is understanding human medicine and biology, both behavior but 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.960 also medical problems. Okay, so how they manifest in the body. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:21.480 So that broad based medical training was essential. And from there, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.839 as Cheryl said, I went, I actually did a one 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.280 year training to be a living person's doctor. Again, I 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.720 need to know what it's like to be a doctor 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:35.080 to people because sometimes I have cases that are medical based, right, 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.960 not everything's a crime. If you will, people die suddenly 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:44.160 more of medical problems, you know, that are either confused 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.280 or misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. Some people don't have doctors, so 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.200 it's really important to pinpoint that and what it looks 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.719 like in various people. Now, I do want to say 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.720 I'm not a child expert, you know I am. Now 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:02.280 I've done some you know, quite a few paediatric autopsy cases, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.000 but I'm not a pediatrician by any means or trained 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.600 in that field. And then I took the tour of pathology, 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:14.079 which means, you know, Johns Hopkins is a very rigorous 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.200 cancer hospital, right, That's what the focus is. So you 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.160 know why we have to take this pursuit. Out of 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.720 forty eight month of residency training where I learned to 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.680 be a pathologist, only one month is forensics at the 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.240 Medical Examiner's office. It's a very busy month, but you 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:35.040 can't be an expert after one month. So I learned 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.679 how to diagnose cancer and do various laboratory things, really 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.720 important stuff. But that's not where my passion was. And 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.439 so finally I did my fellowship. So that is many years. 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.240 You know, it's not overnight, and no one's born with 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:53.600 this knowledge, but it's so if you want to dedicate 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.480 your life to it, it's worth it. It's long, but 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:57.880 it's worth it. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.959 I tell people all the time, the crime scene belongs 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:11.520 to me, the body belongs to you, and it's imperative 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:16.079 that you've got a good working relationship with that medical examiner. 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.760 And I'll tell you about one case. There was a 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.360 female found on the side of the interstate. She was 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.520 nude from the waist down. She had a T shirt 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.000 on that looked like something she had gotten as a tourist. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.880 She was wearing no bra, she was face down. She 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.079 had marks on her that when I first saw her, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.600 I thought was road rash. When I looked closer, it 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:45.280 looked like bug activity. Up on the embankment, we found 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.760 her purse. I mean it looked like a homicide. It 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.760 looked like a hundred homicides I'd seen where somebody's you know, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:53.839 thrown out of a car. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.040 Real quick, and the killer keeps going very. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:03.120 Concerning, So I'm thinking sex assault, homicide right absolutely. I 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:08.120 get to the medical examiner and fast forward it's a 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.360 case of dungee fever, which one I had never heard of. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.400 And two right the. 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.440 Way that they were able to break this down and 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.400 explain to me suddenly this crime scene that looked completely 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.440 one way was now very clearly another. 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.040 So again, that relationship is so important. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.280 And I just want to say I didn't get here alone. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:39.560 We don't, right, we work together. But I was the 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.520 medical examiner for the state of Rhode Islander, one of 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.520 the assistant medical examiners for over eleven years. Over the 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.480 past three years I transitioned to working for myself. But 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:56.480 those eleven years after fellowship were really continued fellowship if 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.160 you were okay, that is in the field training. So 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.800 we had a very unique or still you know, the 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.400 office still does. I'm not there, but a very unique 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.200 setup where we were on call and you know, doctors 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.000 are on call, but what does that mean. We have 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:16.240 a very unique job where we actually respond to a 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.680 crime scene one call. So I'm not just available by 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:24.160 phone if there's a need. It's not every case because 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.400 I would never get me work done. I mean, I 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:32.040 have very keenly trained medical legal death investigators, and I 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.000 learned so much from them because most of them were, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:41.200 like you, Cheryl, they were CSI detectives before they transitioned 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.800 to the Medical Examiner's office, so they've seen both sides 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:50.040 and the knowledge they have, it's it's like priceless. I 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:56.240 took the job because how experienced and collegial the investigators were. 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:01.360 So Nonetheless, sometimes many I've had to go to scenes 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.640 whether they be suspicious. So in your case, I would 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.640 have been called to that scene. Oh absolutely, bagger hands. 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.840 We take pictures, analyze it. Now, that's not the full 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.520 story obviously, right, we found out much more. But it's 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.160 always better to evaluate it as suspicious and then the 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.480 autopsy and the laboratory studies will help us sort it out. Right, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.360 it's better to overreact in a way and protect evidence 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.600 or potential evidence rather than lose it. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720 Agreed, Always better to go overboard, no doubt about it. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.360 And again this was the case. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.640 I'd never heard of Dungee Favor, so I wouldn't recognize 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.400 it anyway. So I tell people all the time, even 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.200 after forty four years, one thing I love about my job. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:45.560 It's always going to be different. 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.320 And that's what I always tell people too, is why 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.160 do I like it? Is because everybody has a story. Right. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.720 I could have two people, three people die of a 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.760 heart attack. They're all middle aged white men, but one 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.840 could have been at the gym, one could have been voting, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.920 one could have been just sleeping, right like, Unfortunately they 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.360 all die of the same cause, but we all get 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.480 there a different way. And you know, they're still special 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.960 to their families. You know, the families aren't considered concerned 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.040 about anybody else. But when we look at what keeps 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:21.120 our day to day interesting or unique, right, the unique presentations, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.880 unique stories are really where it's at. 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.560 Agreed, So why don't you give everybody just a real 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.440 quick education on calls and manner of death? 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:34.360 What's the difference? 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.760 Sure? And I think you know when I testify, when 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:42.640 I teach, you know, this is the number one issue 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.760 or responsibility I have as a medical examiner forensic topologists 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.880 determining cause and manner of death. So cause of death 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:57.040 is how you would describe someone died. Okay, So what 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.240 I mean this is there's no way I can be 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.720 uh complete, It's just an infinite number of possibility. But 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.600 let's just talk about heart attack. That can go. You know, 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.280 what we call is the top line of the death certificate, 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.240 top line of the aucasse report. Why did they die? 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.800 They suffered a heart attack? Now did they do that 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.439 in you know, what are the circumstances? How did that happen? 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.040 And this is the manner of death. So they're closely tied, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.119 they're paired. Okay. So what I like to say is 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.360 we don't practice in a black box. Okay, So anytime 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:37.160 I'm looking at a death, whether it's explained or unexplained, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.720 I need to learn as much about the person as 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.600 they can. So we're going to go to the scene 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.040 or talk to the doctor at the hospital, if it's 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:50.440 a hospital related death, try to find out what brought 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.920 them there, you know, was it ems, was it family? 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.919 What medical history do they have? Are they on any medications? Right? 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.040 I'm trying to learn and paint the picture. Where were 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.600 they found? If it was found by family? You know, 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.600 you'll often hear I'm sure you know this story, right. 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.040 They didn't answer our calls, they didn't return our text messages, 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.680 you know, so that can give us an idea of 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:15.800 what they were doing or not doing one of the 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.840 last time they were spoken to, et cetera. So then 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.760 we go into the autopsy. Do the autopsy. I'm looking 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.280 at every order. Even if I think it's a heart attack, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.439 the doctor tells me it's a heart attack. They have 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.359 a heart attack history. You never want to be so 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.040 narrow minded. So the autopsy's really where you have to 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.960 have a keen eye. You can keep all that information 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.600 in the back of your head. You really gotta just 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.960 gather all the data, right, and then I do toxicology, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.159 and everybody, I don't care if it's a ninety year 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.199 old grandma. I still do some toxicology because you just 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.399 never know. And I use all that data to come 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.600 up with the cause of death now and the manner. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.800 So remember, the cause of death is something I can 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.639 or test for. Right, I make this medical judgment, but 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.359 I need to know the backstory and the manner of death. 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:13.040 There's five manners natural suicide, homicide, accident, or undetermined. Okay, 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.000 now how do I say that this heart attack? Why 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.920 did he suffer a heart attack? So natural meaning it's 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.359 a medical one hundred percent medical. No one did anything 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:27.879 to this person okay. Suicide is the intentional taking of 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:35.720 one's life, whereas accident is the unintentional outcome of an action. Right. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.520 Homicide is the death at the hands of another or others. 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.440 And an undetermined is really that small category we use 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.199 when every effort under the sun to the best of 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.000 our ability has been made and I cannot categorize it 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.440 further into the first four that I mentioned. So all 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.400 that backstory, medical history, that's all what's going to help 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:02.359 me determine which is best to pick for the cause 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.800 of death? Got you? So it's a long winded answer, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.760 but that's because it's not a black and white kind 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:09.360 of process. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.159 Oh yeah, none of this is yes or no. For sure. 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.119 You have now led me to my next question because 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:21.040 as a cold case investigator, undetermined drives me crazy. So 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.960 can you talk a little bit about I'm sure the 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.840 frustration you have when you can't determine the manner of death. 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.919 In the industry, if you will, Our accreditation is ninety 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:38.520 percent of cases need to be efficiently closed, meaning you 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.600 know we have an answer for the family. Now why 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.520 is it not one hundred percent? Because nothing is hundred 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:48.280 percent okay, And the more challenging the case, the longer 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.520 it takes to solve right or get the testing undetermined. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:55.960 You know, it's really hard. And I take a sigh 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.480 because this is where I feel like I bang my 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:03.119 head against well. I'm so determined to try to, you know, 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.720 give the family a concise answer backed by XYZ data, 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.520 and I just can't. And it's really frustrating. It's appropriate 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.120 in some cases, right, but luckily it's not most cases. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.760 It's a minority of cases, but darn it. Sometimes I 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.880 cannot tell if it was a suicide versus accident. Okay. 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.520 Sometimes I cannot tell if it was a homicide or accident. Okay, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.359 it's not clear cut, and it may be the scene 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.680 or the investigation component, right. So the police can do 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.359 everything under the sun, and they still can't give me 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:46.160 a clear cut answer. Right. So the undetermined we're talking about. 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.960 It can be cause of death is undetermined, but it's 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:53.119 mainly the manner that we're talking about, okay, And that's 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.520 really frustrating, I think for everyone involved, where we can't 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.520 pigeonhole it because that's what we're really trained to do. 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.280 That's what the satisfaction we get, right, solving the puzzle 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.679 and it's rare, but you know, and these this can 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.640 be a legal issue too, meaning does it go to court? Right? 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.640 If I call it a homicide, that obviously has huge 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:19.080 legal implications. Now, homicide in my world or our world, 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.520 still is a medical determination. It does not mean it 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.439 has to go to court, right, It does not have 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:31.679 to be prosecuted, but it often has that heavy weight 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.440 that pushes it into the courtroom setting. Sure, So it's 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.120 not a word I use lightly. 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.280 Exactly, and to explain that to everybody. 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.560 That doesn't mean it was a murder either, correct, So 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.560 that's something to understand. You can have a homicide that's 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.480 not a murder. Homicide literally just means a person to 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.680 the life of another person, which could have been legitimately 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:54.200 done in self defense. 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.560 Self defense or I'll tell you I had a case. Right, 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.639 it's hunting season in many places, as it is Rhode Island. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.160 Two buddies were hunting, and they were hundreds of yards apart, right, 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.720 and they were wearing their orange gear. But just one 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.320 of the Buckshot bullets, you know, it comes out as 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:18.280 a cluster. This was double lot Buckshot, so nine marble 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:23.080 sized balls and one just happened to go, right, they 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.760 spread in the air hoping that it hits the target, 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:31.680 which is a deer, but unfortunately one hit the shooter's 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.439 buddy and the belly and got his kidney, and I 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.080 had to call it a homicide. It's all over the news, 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.919 and you know, I have lots of friends in the media. 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:43.200 I do media because I want to put the right 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.639 message out there. And I was freaking out because I 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.199 was like, oh my god, the homicide. We're just going 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:50.640 to get out there and they're going to think it's 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.959