1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Y'all, Welcome to Zone seven. Today is a training day. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: It is really. 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Important for me to give y'all tools so that when 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: you're helping us work a cold case, you have a 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: base of understanding that's not just the general public. 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: So today we have got. 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: An expert that's going to be able to tell you 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: the difference in cause and manner of death. 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about wound recognition. 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: You're going to get a really good understanding of how 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: somebody works to determine whether something is. 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: A homicide, suicide, or an accident. 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: We are so fortunate and honored to have with us 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: doctor Priya Banergy doctor, Welcome to Zone seven. 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm honored to be here. 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: I tell you, if we had a good time last week, 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: then we did. We did, y'all. We got to have. 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: Dinner, we got to go to the aquarium, and we 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: got to hang out with some experts from South Africa 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: that are helping us with wildlife crimes. 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you, you know, you've come across 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: people every now and then that you know might be 23 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: smarter than you. 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: But when you combine that with somebody that is so 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: willing to help and share their knowledge. 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: It's just a gift. I mean, I keep saying it, 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 2: but that's what it is. 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: And in my job, Priya, the thing that I love 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: the most about it, I don't have to know everything, 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: and I can literally go to somebody that's one of 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: the best there is and say, hey, help me, and 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: you will, and so all of our cases to me 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: just become that much more solid because of folks like you. 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: You know. I think that's part of my mission in 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: life is too share knowledge. You know, we're forensicalathology. Despite 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: it being on TV. It's such a small field, or 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: I should say of us right working individuals that I 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: don't know. I like meeting people. That's what got me 39 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: into the field. It's everybody has a story, right. I 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: think when it boils down to it, we're in the holidays, 41 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 3: everybody just wants to be with their friends and family 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: and be loved. And I think when you remember that, 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 3: you know that we're all humans. Despite our whatever beliefs 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 3: that you know I think should be put aside. Uh, 45 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 3: we have more in common than what divides us. 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: Amen. 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 3: And you know that's what drives me and I'm probably 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: you too, you know, the caring, the sort of drive 49 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: that we have to solve cases, whether they be current, 50 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 3: if you will, you know, a fresh, new case or 51 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: a cold case. It's that's the theme that carries us, right, 52 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: And I say us because everybody that I've worked with, 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: you know, puts as side any difference, any judgment. It's 54 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: all about we need to solve the case to the 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: best of our ability, to respect this person who's passed away, 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 3: you know, a child, Right, we talked about that cold 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: case that was solved. I mean, that is incredible. I 58 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: actually looked at the pictures again. It was a child. 59 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: And today's my daughter's eleventh birthday. And when you talk 60 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 3: about a twelve year old, a ten year old, you know, 61 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 3: passing away, I just think about the impact it has 62 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: on her family, the lasting impact and the community. Right, 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: she had friends, teachers. That's the kind of story that 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 3: I feel, you know, carries us through. And we have 65 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 3: to remember everybody's interwoven. 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: Everybody is interwoven. And it's so true. 67 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: Like even when you and I were just socializing the 68 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: other night we bonded over my friend a part about Acharia. 69 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: The first thing you said was she's man Goali, you 70 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: know exactly, And it was such a wonderful thing. And 71 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: I know, a Parna and I used to laugh all 72 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: the time that you think we. 73 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: Are worlds apart. 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: But being Southern and be in Bengali, there's a lot 75 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: of common ground. 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: It's all food. 77 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: It's all food, food and family, food and family. 78 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: And you know, we used to, you know, laugh so 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: much because anytime I would visit her parents, I mean, 80 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna eat. There's gonna be a plate in front 81 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: of you. It doesn't matter if you said, oh, no, no, no, 82 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: I you know, I just ate. 83 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: I'm fine. 84 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 3: No, You're never on a diet. 85 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: You're never on a diet. Same thing in a southern family. 86 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: We're gonna feed you, you know. And then the getting 87 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: together to everybody in one house, everybody being loud. 88 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: And talking at the same time, and music. 89 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: I mean it was you could have exchanged either one 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: of our stories and you wouldn't have known which family 91 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: we were talking about. 92 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: By the way, I was having dreams of that carrot cheesecake. Yes, 93 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: so I don't need a lot of jumper, but I 94 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: must say some of the desserts in the South are 95 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 3: like no other. And I indulged and the other day 96 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: I was thinking what am I gonna have this holiday? 97 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,799 Speaker 3: I got to really, like, you know, kick and choose 98 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 3: so I don't totally go off the deep end. And 99 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: I was like, dang, I could use another slice of 100 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: that carrot. That was divine. I mean, it would take 101 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: me a week to eat it the size that it was, 102 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 3: but it was quality. 103 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: And that's another thing for y'all out there in Zone seven. 104 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: I tried to explain to the good doctor that look, 105 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: it's a carrot cheesecake. 106 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: It's basically a salad. 107 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: But listen, I know you are not about this, but 108 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: I do want people to know more about you. So 109 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: just indulge me for a minute and let me brag 110 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: on you, because not only y'all is she a forensic pathologist. 111 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: She is an expert in. 112 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: Homicides, autopsies, cause. 113 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: And manner of death, wound interpretation, crime scene analysis. She 114 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: was educated as a Doctor of Medicine at the University 115 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She did a pathology residency at the Johns Hopkins. 116 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: She did a forensic pathology fellowship at the Medical Examiner 117 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: for the State of Maryland. 118 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: She has been. 119 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: Deposed and or testified over sixty times in the last 120 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: four years. Okay, that's over once a month, y'all. She 121 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: has performed over three thousand autopsies. She's worked on military cases, 122 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: NSA cases, and she was brought in on the wrongful 123 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: death of Breonna Taylor. And you know she ain't busy enough, 124 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: so in her spare time, she's also an adjunct professor 125 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: at the Boston University School of Medicine. She's a wife, 126 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: she's a mother, she's a friend, and she's an expert 127 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 1: for us today. 128 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: Can I just interject before we get into like the 129 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 3: depth of everything, Like I get asked by people of 130 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 3: all ages. You know, I get contacted in email, in 131 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: person whenever someone meet to me. You know, what does 132 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 3: it take to become a forensic pathologist? And you know, 133 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that this can influence people. We need more 134 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: people in this field. Okay, it's a dedication, just like 135 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: any expert is, right, it takes a long time to 136 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: get there because you need a field of knowledge. But 137 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: I went to medical school to do this, Okay, I 138 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: had that focus, and you know I it was my 139 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: calling all along. And I'm hoping that someone listening to this, 140 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: whether it's themselves or a child or a cousin or whatnot. 141 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: You know, a friend gets some inspiration to follow the 142 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: same past, so to become a forensic pathologist or medical examiner. 143 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: They're sort of used interchangeably. My board certification as forensic 144 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: pathologist and when I function as a doctor for the state, 145 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: it was a medical examiner position. But they're really used 146 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: interchangeably nonetheless. So I went to college, Okay, I had 147 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: a four year degree in cell and molecular biology, and 148 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: I thought I was going to be a DNA sloop. 149 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: So it's still cool. I mean, it's amazing to see 150 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: how far DNA's come. It's far far blown, you know, 151 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: from what I learned in college. The basics are still 152 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 3: the same, but man, that's just exponentially grown. And I 153 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: was a minor in criminal justice at the University of 154 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: Maryland and that's what really sparked my interest. I fell 155 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 3: into it and it was just amazing. So I took 156 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: multiple levels, you know, basically at a minor in criminology 157 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 3: and criminal justice and it was the perfect fusion when 158 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: I got exposure at the upper level in a seminar 159 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: on multiple areas of fors and criminal justice that the 160 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 3: autopsy pathology, and I said, Oh my god, it's like 161 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 3: a medical mystery. You know, I can solve the puzzle, 162 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: and I think that's what I love. It's very logical. 163 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 3: You try to put the pieces of the puzzle together, right, 164 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 3: You collect all sorts of data and observations and then 165 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: go from there. So from there, I went to medical school, 166 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: so I need to be an MD. Now I have 167 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: a vast knowledge of medicine. Right, That's what I trained for. 168 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 3: So you can't go and just say I only want 169 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: to do this field, right, You really do need the 170 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 3: broad training. And you know, I'm always grateful to the 171 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: University of Pennsylvania because they really gave me. They believed 172 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 3: in me and gave me, you know, gave me an opportunity. 173 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: No one in my family's a doctor. My parents weren't doctors, 174 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: so this was sort of a blind pursuit on my end. 175 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: And you know, that was a great, unbelievably great clinical foundation. 176 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 3: And what I emphasize is so much of forensics, autopsy, 177 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: pathology is understanding human medicine and biology, both behavior but 178 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 3: also medical problems. Okay, so how they manifest in the body. 179 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 3: So that broad based medical training was essential. And from there, 180 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 3: as Cheryl said, I went, I actually did a one 181 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: year training to be a living person's doctor. Again, I 182 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: need to know what it's like to be a doctor 183 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 3: to people because sometimes I have cases that are medical based, right, 184 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: not everything's a crime. If you will, people die suddenly 185 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: more of medical problems, you know, that are either confused 186 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: or misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. Some people don't have doctors, so 187 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: it's really important to pinpoint that and what it looks 188 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 3: like in various people. Now, I do want to say 189 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: I'm not a child expert, you know I am. Now 190 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: I've done some you know, quite a few paediatric autopsy cases, 191 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: but I'm not a pediatrician by any means or trained 192 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 3: in that field. And then I took the tour of pathology, 193 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 3: which means, you know, Johns Hopkins is a very rigorous 194 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: cancer hospital, right, That's what the focus is. So you 195 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: know why we have to take this pursuit. Out of 196 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: forty eight month of residency training where I learned to 197 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 3: be a pathologist, only one month is forensics at the 198 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: Medical Examiner's office. It's a very busy month, but you 199 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: can't be an expert after one month. So I learned 200 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 3: how to diagnose cancer and do various laboratory things, really 201 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: important stuff. But that's not where my passion was. And 202 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: so finally I did my fellowship. So that is many years. 203 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: You know, it's not overnight, and no one's born with 204 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 3: this knowledge, but it's so if you want to dedicate 205 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: your life to it, it's worth it. It's long, but 206 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: it's worth it. 207 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, the crime scene belongs 208 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: to me, the body belongs to you, and it's imperative 209 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: that you've got a good working relationship with that medical examiner. 210 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you about one case. There was a 211 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: female found on the side of the interstate. She was 212 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: nude from the waist down. She had a T shirt 213 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: on that looked like something she had gotten as a tourist. 214 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: She was wearing no bra, she was face down. She 215 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: had marks on her that when I first saw her, 216 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: I thought was road rash. When I looked closer, it 217 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: looked like bug activity. Up on the embankment, we found 218 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: her purse. I mean it looked like a homicide. It 219 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: looked like a hundred homicides I'd seen where somebody's you know, 220 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: thrown out of a car. 221 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: Real quick, and the killer keeps going very. 222 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: Concerning, So I'm thinking sex assault, homicide right absolutely. I 223 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: get to the medical examiner and fast forward it's a 224 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: case of dungee fever, which one I had never heard of. 225 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: And two right the. 226 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: Way that they were able to break this down and 227 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: explain to me suddenly this crime scene that looked completely 228 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: one way was now very clearly another. 229 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: So again, that relationship is so important. 230 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: And I just want to say I didn't get here alone. 231 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 3: We don't, right, we work together. But I was the 232 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: medical examiner for the state of Rhode Islander, one of 233 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: the assistant medical examiners for over eleven years. Over the 234 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: past three years I transitioned to working for myself. But 235 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: those eleven years after fellowship were really continued fellowship if 236 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: you were okay, that is in the field training. So 237 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: we had a very unique or still you know, the 238 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 3: office still does. I'm not there, but a very unique 239 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 3: setup where we were on call and you know, doctors 240 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 3: are on call, but what does that mean. We have 241 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: a very unique job where we actually respond to a 242 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: crime scene one call. So I'm not just available by 243 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 3: phone if there's a need. It's not every case because 244 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 3: I would never get me work done. I mean, I 245 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: have very keenly trained medical legal death investigators, and I 246 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: learned so much from them because most of them were, 247 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: like you, Cheryl, they were CSI detectives before they transitioned 248 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: to the Medical Examiner's office, so they've seen both sides 249 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: and the knowledge they have, it's it's like priceless. I 250 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: took the job because how experienced and collegial the investigators were. 251 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: So Nonetheless, sometimes many I've had to go to scenes 252 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: whether they be suspicious. So in your case, I would 253 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: have been called to that scene. Oh absolutely, bagger hands. 254 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: We take pictures, analyze it. Now, that's not the full 255 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: story obviously, right, we found out much more. But it's 256 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: always better to evaluate it as suspicious and then the 257 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 3: autopsy and the laboratory studies will help us sort it out. Right, 258 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: it's better to overreact in a way and protect evidence 259 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: or potential evidence rather than lose it. 260 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: Agreed, Always better to go overboard, no doubt about it. 261 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: And again this was the case. 262 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: I'd never heard of Dungee Favor, so I wouldn't recognize 263 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: it anyway. So I tell people all the time, even 264 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: after forty four years, one thing I love about my job. 265 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: It's always going to be different. 266 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: And that's what I always tell people too, is why 267 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 3: do I like it? Is because everybody has a story. Right. 268 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: I could have two people, three people die of a 269 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 3: heart attack. They're all middle aged white men, but one 270 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: could have been at the gym, one could have been voting, 271 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: one could have been just sleeping, right like, Unfortunately they 272 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: all die of the same cause, but we all get 273 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: there a different way. And you know, they're still special 274 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: to their families. You know, the families aren't considered concerned 275 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: about anybody else. But when we look at what keeps 276 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 3: our day to day interesting or unique, right, the unique presentations, 277 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 3: unique stories are really where it's at. 278 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: Agreed, So why don't you give everybody just a real 279 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: quick education on calls and manner of death? 280 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: What's the difference? 281 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: Sure? And I think you know when I testify, when 282 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: I teach, you know, this is the number one issue 283 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 3: or responsibility I have as a medical examiner forensic topologists 284 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 3: determining cause and manner of death. So cause of death 285 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: is how you would describe someone died. Okay, So what 286 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: I mean this is there's no way I can be 287 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: uh complete, It's just an infinite number of possibility. But 288 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: let's just talk about heart attack. That can go. You know, 289 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: what we call is the top line of the death certificate, 290 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 3: top line of the aucasse report. Why did they die? 291 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: They suffered a heart attack? Now did they do that 292 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 3: in you know, what are the circumstances? How did that happen? 293 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: And this is the manner of death. So they're closely tied, 294 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 3: they're paired. Okay. So what I like to say is 295 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 3: we don't practice in a black box. Okay, So anytime 296 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: I'm looking at a death, whether it's explained or unexplained, 297 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 3: I need to learn as much about the person as 298 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: they can. So we're going to go to the scene 299 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 3: or talk to the doctor at the hospital, if it's 300 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 3: a hospital related death, try to find out what brought 301 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 3: them there, you know, was it ems, was it family? 302 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 3: What medical history do they have? Are they on any medications? Right? 303 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: I'm trying to learn and paint the picture. Where were 304 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: they found? If it was found by family? You know, 305 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: you'll often hear I'm sure you know this story, right. 306 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: They didn't answer our calls, they didn't return our text messages, 307 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: you know, so that can give us an idea of 308 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 3: what they were doing or not doing one of the 309 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: last time they were spoken to, et cetera. So then 310 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 3: we go into the autopsy. Do the autopsy. I'm looking 311 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 3: at every order. Even if I think it's a heart attack, 312 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 3: the doctor tells me it's a heart attack. They have 313 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 3: a heart attack history. You never want to be so 314 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: narrow minded. So the autopsy's really where you have to 315 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 3: have a keen eye. You can keep all that information 316 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 3: in the back of your head. You really gotta just 317 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: gather all the data, right, and then I do toxicology, 318 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 3: and everybody, I don't care if it's a ninety year 319 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 3: old grandma. I still do some toxicology because you just 320 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 3: never know. And I use all that data to come 321 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: up with the cause of death now and the manner. 322 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: So remember, the cause of death is something I can 323 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 3: or test for. Right, I make this medical judgment, but 324 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 3: I need to know the backstory and the manner of death. 325 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 3: There's five manners natural suicide, homicide, accident, or undetermined. Okay, 326 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: now how do I say that this heart attack? Why 327 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 3: did he suffer a heart attack? So natural meaning it's 328 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 3: a medical one hundred percent medical. No one did anything 329 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: to this person okay. Suicide is the intentional taking of 330 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 3: one's life, whereas accident is the unintentional outcome of an action. Right. 331 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: Homicide is the death at the hands of another or others. 332 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 3: And an undetermined is really that small category we use 333 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 3: when every effort under the sun to the best of 334 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: our ability has been made and I cannot categorize it 335 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 3: further into the first four that I mentioned. So all 336 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 3: that backstory, medical history, that's all what's going to help 337 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: me determine which is best to pick for the cause 338 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: of death? Got you? So it's a long winded answer, 339 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: but that's because it's not a black and white kind 340 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 3: of process. 341 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, none of this is yes or no. For sure. 342 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: You have now led me to my next question because 343 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: as a cold case investigator, undetermined drives me crazy. So 344 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about I'm sure the 345 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: frustration you have when you can't determine the manner of death. 346 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 3: In the industry, if you will, Our accreditation is ninety 347 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: percent of cases need to be efficiently closed, meaning you 348 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: know we have an answer for the family. Now why 349 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: is it not one hundred percent? Because nothing is hundred 350 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: percent okay, And the more challenging the case, the longer 351 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 3: it takes to solve right or get the testing undetermined. 352 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: You know, it's really hard. And I take a sigh 353 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: because this is where I feel like I bang my 354 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 3: head against well. I'm so determined to try to, you know, 355 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: give the family a concise answer backed by XYZ data, 356 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: and I just can't. And it's really frustrating. It's appropriate 357 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 3: in some cases, right, but luckily it's not most cases. 358 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: It's a minority of cases, but darn it. Sometimes I 359 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 3: cannot tell if it was a suicide versus accident. Okay. 360 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 3: Sometimes I cannot tell if it was a homicide or accident. Okay, 361 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: it's not clear cut, and it may be the scene 362 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 3: or the investigation component, right. So the police can do 363 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 3: everything under the sun, and they still can't give me 364 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: a clear cut answer. Right. So the undetermined we're talking about. 365 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: It can be cause of death is undetermined, but it's 366 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 3: mainly the manner that we're talking about, okay, And that's 367 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 3: really frustrating, I think for everyone involved, where we can't 368 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: pigeonhole it because that's what we're really trained to do. 369 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: That's what the satisfaction we get, right, solving the puzzle 370 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 3: and it's rare, but you know, and these this can 371 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: be a legal issue too, meaning does it go to court? Right? 372 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 3: If I call it a homicide, that obviously has huge 373 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: legal implications. Now, homicide in my world or our world, 374 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: still is a medical determination. It does not mean it 375 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 3: has to go to court, right, It does not have 376 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: to be prosecuted, but it often has that heavy weight 377 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: that pushes it into the courtroom setting. Sure, So it's 378 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 3: not a word I use lightly. 379 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: Exactly, and to explain that to everybody. 380 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it was a murder either, correct, So 381 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: that's something to understand. You can have a homicide that's 382 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: not a murder. Homicide literally just means a person to 383 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: the life of another person, which could have been legitimately 384 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: done in self defense. 385 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: Self defense or I'll tell you I had a case. Right, 386 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 3: it's hunting season in many places, as it is Rhode Island. 387 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 3: Two buddies were hunting, and they were hundreds of yards apart, right, 388 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: and they were wearing their orange gear. But just one 389 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 3: of the Buckshot bullets, you know, it comes out as 390 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 3: a cluster. This was double lot Buckshot, so nine marble 391 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: sized balls and one just happened to go, right, they 392 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 3: spread in the air hoping that it hits the target, 393 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 3: which is a deer, but unfortunately one hit the shooter's 394 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 3: buddy and the belly and got his kidney, and I 395 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: had to call it a homicide. It's all over the news, 396 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 3: and you know, I have lots of friends in the media. 397 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 3: I do media because I want to put the right 398 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: message out there. And I was freaking out because I 399 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, the homicide. We're just going 400 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 3: to get out there and they're going to think it's 401 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 3: a murder. But right in the classification definition, just like 402 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 3: you said, this was a homicide, but there were no 403 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: legal charges. And I mean, can you imagine going out 404 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 3: with your friend and this is the outcome to say, 405 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 3: you know, the mental toll it took on the individuals 406 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: is beyond right. 407 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: And we do we see it. We see horrible, non 408 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: intentional dess like this a lot. 409 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: Is there a case that just stays with you, whether 410 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: it was unique or scary or crazy, but just one 411 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: that stays with you. 412 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about when I was the primary pathologist, 413 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 3: not an expert consultant, And you know I don't usually 414 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 3: talk about my cases unless they are closed, So you know, 415 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: nothing I'm saying is going to be It's a very 416 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: jarring case, but nothing is secret because it's already been 417 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: tried and you know, finalized if you will. So it 418 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 3: was actually, this really hits home as my daughter turns 419 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 3: eleven today, and I'm say, being a mother, just like 420 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: you are, you know, changes your perspective of the world. 421 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 3: So in my fellowship, I come in Christmas day and 422 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 3: there is a missing young girl found after a three 423 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 3: day search. She was kidnapped from her home, very brutally 424 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 3: assaulted in every way possible, and then burned. And that case, 425 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 3: I mean talk about evidence DNA proving you know, rape 426 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: and you know, strangulation and beating and drowning and every 427 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 3: connection there could be. You know, it was just it 428 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: stays with you. And that was you know, decades before 429 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 3: I came a mother. Okay, that was in my fellowship 430 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 3: in what twenty two thousand and nine, twenty ten, So 431 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 3: it just stays with you that, you know, that's still 432 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: one of the most horrific cases that yeah, you know 433 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 3: I have a few that are like that, but I 434 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 3: think you know, any pediatric case, any kid case, I think, 435 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: right really makes an impact on us. They're just so vulnerable, 436 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: whether it's a baby or an older child. I don't know. 437 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 3: That just sticks with me, whether you know, even before 438 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: I became a mother, now more so. And that guy 439 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 3: was a known child sex offender and he went to 440 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 3: jail for three hundred years. 441 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: Excellent. He deserved every minute of it. 442 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 3: Every every moment, right, and being able to tie him 443 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: to the crime through body secretions that we collected and 444 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: you know the DNA was run, that is what tied 445 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 3: him to her body. Right, So when we talk about 446 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 3: Craze's evidence, that's why we do it. It's not just 447 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 3: to determine what the injuries were, but it's really to 448 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 3: prove who did it. And I mean it's still an 449 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: amazing case and out of Maryland. 450 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: Then it sticks with you. 451 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 3: But you know, when you think about it, oh God, 452 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 3: if this is how I want to spend my Christmas. 453 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: Obviously no one wants to deal with the child duck, 454 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 3: but it was how do we get through it? It's 455 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: the rewarding. It's rewarding to see it come to fruition 456 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 3: and have that kind of sentence. 457 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: And to get a monster off the street. Even before 458 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: I had children, I was pretty good at not taking 459 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: things for granted. But after I had them, I will 460 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: tell you. You know how parents might say, you know, 461 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: if the child says, hey, will you come play this 462 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: game with me? 463 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 2: Or will you do this with me? I will in 464 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 2: a minute. I never once said that to my children. 465 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: If they ever asked me to do something, I stopped 466 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: whatever I was doing and played with them. 467 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: Took them to the park, played basketball, played. 468 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: Tennis, whatever, because I knew from my job these moments 469 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: are fleeting and your life can change literally in a second. 470 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: In a second, and so I don't ever want them 471 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: to miss out, you know, being with me or having 472 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: fun with me because I'm going to finish a load 473 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: of laundry. 474 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? Nothing matters, Nothing match. 475 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: If you look at my house, it's cluttered, in disarray. 476 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 3: But that's because I prioritize my family and. 477 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: We're getting there. 478 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: But you know, I think about after my mom passed away, 479 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 3: any moment I would have rather had with her, and 480 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 3: I do that with my daughter is like people like 481 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: you do so much with her. It's because this is 482 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: my life. You know, I'm a doctor and I do 483 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: a service for the community. But then outside of work, 484 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: I'm a person, right, and to be that mom, that's 485 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: my number one job outside of being a doctor. 486 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: Because even the weekend we spent together, you were calling her, 487 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: you were talking about her. You're like, oh, I've already 488 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: done this because I'm bringing her back when we do 489 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: our thing in North Carolina. She's already coming because she 490 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: loves horses and obviously you met. 491 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: Both of them. 492 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 4: Back to you, I got a year long Georgia Aquarium 493 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 4: membership so I can both come in and see you 494 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: guys at the station again and maybe share some knowledge 495 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 4: and then go to the aquarium. 496 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you my Chief of police 497 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: literally came back to me and said, I want to 498 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: be sure I really meet her and wanted me to 499 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: bring you back. 500 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: Remember when I said, did you meet you? 501 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 3: I'm sorry I felt that I didn't realize that because 502 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: I also feel like that's funny because I would never 503 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 3: want to take too much of the chief time. 504 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: That's so funny, and so he you know, he was 505 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: so taken just by your level. 506 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: And it's such a great thing. I'm telling you. 507 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: Because you know, to be a police officer, you can 508 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: have that job with a ged So again, to have 509 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: somebody like you willing to take a phone call, willing 510 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: to say, hey, I will walk. 511 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: You through this. Go look for this and this and this. 512 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 2: It's a god, there's all there is to it. 513 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: But I just, you know the way, I do want 514 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 3: to say something that and I truly believe this. It's 515 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: not just about the letters behind anybody's name, because some 516 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 3: of the police officers I've worked with, I mean, the 517 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 3: best cops don't necessarily they have experience, right, which doesn't 518 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 3: come in the classroom necessarily. 519 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: Also common sense and street wise those are things you 520 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: can't teach. 521 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 3: No, And honestly, the best chief of police I worked with, 522 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 3: he's now in DC, I think with the DOJ Colonel 523 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 3: Clements in Providence. He was a beat cop. He started 524 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 3: at the beat level, he worked the roughest neighborhoods and 525 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: worked his way up. And you know what, the respect 526 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: and not like you both had the people's respect for 527 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 3: you know, his colleagues and other officers respect because he 528 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: was an amazing bridge to the community. Right, he's walked 529 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: the walk. 530 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: But that's how I felt about you. And that's what 531 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: I'm say saying. 532 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: You were so kind to my children, You were kind 533 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: to all the officers. 534 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: You were kind to the other experts, and it goes we're. 535 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 3: There as a group. I don't you know, we all Okay, 536 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: I can't be a pathologist. I can't go to court 537 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 3: without my degrees and my board certifications. Right. That's really 538 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: like not only the knowledge, but that's the legitimate legitimacy 539 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 3: I bring to my testimony. Right, If I don't have 540 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: the education and the board certification and all those letters, 541 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: no one's gonna believe me. Right, how do you get 542 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 3: taken seriously? But at the same time, there's no one upmanship, 543 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 3: right because we're all working together. 544 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: And it takes every person. It takes everyone, every person. 545 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 3: And I always I always said, so Rhode Island is 546 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: great about taking the small estate and chopping it up 547 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 3: into confetti. Okay, And there's thirty seven different police departments 548 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 3: or something, you know, believe you me thirty one thirty seven, 549 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: I mean over thirty. And I had a peron in 550 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 3: each department. If I needed something, I would call them, 551 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: and they always have the working relationship with me. Hey, Doc, 552 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: I need something, and I sometimes I say, hey, that's 553 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 3: not my cake. You should talk to the original doctor. 554 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 3: But sometimes you know, off the cuff. I could give them, 555 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: you know, an answer, or they would ask me. And 556 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 3: it's amazing because you know, they respected me, but I 557 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 3: also respected them. They know their territory, they have experience 558 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 3: that I don't, right, So I don't think it's you know, 559 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: I have such a collegial relationship and I worked on 560 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 3: building those because I knew that any work that I do, 561 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: in any case that I handle or that the office handled, 562 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: is it's better handled because of those relationships. 563 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: Amen, listen, I'm not going to take any more time 564 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: away from your baby. 565 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 3: You go enjoy that child on vacation. Today's her birthday. 566 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: Yes, go celebrate that eleven year old. 567 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: What a tremendous, tremendous opportunity to just love her and 568 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: be with her. 569 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: But I just have to say again, all of. 570 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: Those counties in Boston and Rhode Island and Maryland, everything 571 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: you have done. I always end Zone seven with a quote, 572 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: So here's the quote, thinking of you. We have sixty 573 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: two counties in New York State, and each has its 574 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: own system of death investigation. 575 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: Doctor Michael Biden. 576 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: Doctor, thank you so much for being here. Happy holidays, 577 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you soon. 578 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, happy holidays. Thank you for having me. 579 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 2: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.