1 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to the All New All Ball You boy 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieb here and this is the playoffs have been 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: awesome to watch. Um. We have an interview this week 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: with Jeff Proman, who first he authored Showtime, which is 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: a look back at the Showtime Lakers and anybody like 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: me you grew up in southern California eighties. Like that 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: was an awesome book. We's got a new one on 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: the Lakers and the three peat with Kobe and Shack. 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: It's called Three Ring Circus, appropriately named. We'll get to 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Jeff pro Proman momentarily. UM, I know that when I 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: Everson was on the All All That Smoke Whatever podcast 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: and I saw this column which was tweeted out by 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: Jason Whitlock, and I thought it was fascinating. He said, 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: no one wants to blame the answer we never do. 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: He reminds us of our own shortcomings and failures. This 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: is from two thousand nine and the Pantheon media cuddled 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: over high professional basketball players. Allen Iverson reigned supreme at 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: at least Charles Barkley wanted to win. Karmelon and John 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Stockland tried to win. Patrick Ewing like Barkley, Malone Stockland 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: was cursed by the misfortune of being great at the 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: same time Michael Jordan's was otherworldly. Allen Iverson has no 22 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: such excuse. He arrived at the end of Air Jordan's rulership, 23 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: as Isaiah was the bridge between Magic and Bird and 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: the Jordan eras Iverson was supposed to transition us Uh 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: from Jordan to Kobe Shack. Despite what Averson's media apologist 26 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: right and say, the answer was an underachiever on and 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: off the court. And you know what, I read it, 28 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: and I agree with it, And I don't know if 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: I agree that he would have won multiple championships like 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: Isaiah Thomas. But there there's a couple of these guys 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: in basketball. I think Carmelo is one of them. I 32 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: think Allen Iverson's one of them. Um that were spectator, 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: Tracy McGrady is one of them. I'm not arguing that 34 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: they weren't great basketball players. I don't know about. And 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk with Jeff Prolman about Shaquille O'Neil because Shack. 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: You know, I moved to southern California because my dad 37 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: was Text Winners assistant and texts of course was the 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: architect of the triangle with the Bulls and with the Lakers. 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: And what he told us I'll never forget was he 40 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: told me. He said, Look, Shack is an unbelievable guy. 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: You know, he takes care of the the equipment manager 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: bought him a truck. You know, Joe Crispin was on 43 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: the team. He told he flew Joe Crispin's family out 44 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: to to uh and I'm at to Honolulu to watch 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: his first preseason game with the Lakers. Like he does 46 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: great things, but he was about being shocked, not being 47 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: the greatest player ever. Like you can look at Shack 48 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: and say, shocks. You know, my my favorite big guy, 49 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: my favorite personality, whatever I do. Look at Shack and think, man, 50 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: he didn't necessarily achieve all that his potential allowed him to, 51 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: which is the interesting part about Kobe. I think Kobe 52 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: achieved everything that his body could allow him to do. 53 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: Like I don't know if Kobe was as athletically gifted 54 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: his Tracey McGrady not definitely, not as much as Michael Jordan's. 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: Didn't have as quick the first step wasn't as explosive 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: a jumper, but he worked and got everything out of 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: his body that he ever could. Iverson and mellow to me, 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: strike Us said, like we make excuses for them the 59 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: practice thing. I mean, I love how hypocritical we are. 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: We make fun of the practice thing, the practice rent. 61 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: And yet we all talked about with Larry Bird's work ethic, Magic, 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: Johnson's work, ethic, Michael Jordan's work, ethic, Lebron James working, 63 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: like these guys they all practice. And and Iverson as 64 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: good as Iverson was, the reality that Iverson was. He 65 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: didn't know what you're gonna get. And he may have 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: played hard, but practicing hard and being a good and 67 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: what you do for your rest, that'll help you shoot 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: a better percentage, that'll help you be more locked in. 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: I watched I I watched Iverson. I mean I played 70 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: against him in college, and I toot out some of those. 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: He wasn't a high percentage shooters, a highball ume guy. 72 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: He didn't one year. I think he had a great 73 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: year passing, but he wasn't a great passer. He could 74 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: really scores really explosive, but I mean, you compare him 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: to nowadays player, he just he wasn't. He was a 76 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: high volume, low percentage guy. And and The reason that 77 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: these guys, the reason that Jamal Murray is making these 78 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: tremendously difficult shots, is they have great work ethic. You 79 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: don't know shooter is born, you can tell me. Steph 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: Curry is born in a gym, right, but he had 81 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: to get the shots up in order to develop into 82 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: one of the great shooters in the history of the sports. 83 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: Same thing to Clay Thompson. The zip code might be different, 84 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: but the game is still the same. Either you can 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: or cannot make shots. And you make shots, you know, 86 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: do you have to have form, Sure, do you have 87 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: to have the strength, sure, but you gotta work. And 88 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, like we're watching, I'm watching Jamal Murray 89 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: and I'm blown away that that dude. And I'm gonna 90 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: call him a kid because now I'm getting to be 91 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: an old man, like that kid can go and he's 92 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: gotten better, which means during the time from the shutdown 93 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: until we started playing, and then probably even since they 94 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: started playing. I'm guessing that guy's work ethic is insane 95 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: because the shots he makes he takes with a great 96 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: amount of confidence, and that confidence comes from doing the 97 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: work to make you believe that you can make it. 98 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: So you know, I understand that we have this infatuation 99 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: with Mellow, But as good as Mellow was, and he 100 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: was a great score, probably the best three level score 101 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: in the NBA for about a four or five year period, 102 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: he was not a winner. One reason once he didn't defend. 103 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: Second reason once he wasn't in great shape. And I 104 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: think both were because he didn't take care of himself 105 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: in the off season. Now he does. That was too late. 106 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: Now it's too late. So it's not that I don't 107 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: respect their talents. It's I think so many who have 108 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: achieved even more may not have that talent, but they 109 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: worked harder. They put in more to their body, to 110 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: their mental game, and then to their practice. And you're watching, 111 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: you're you're watching a guy like a Jamal Murray just 112 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: explode on the scene. Let me go through a couple 113 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: of these other things going on. I told you we 114 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: talked with the and we talked about the college basketball bubbles. 115 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: Chris mckis committed to join me a couple of big 116 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: pods upcoming here on the All Ball Podcast. But I look, 117 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm excited about kind of the these these pods with games. 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: It's it's one of those things that I've long thought 119 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: would be a great idea, and we kind of have 120 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: with the preseason tournaments or another nonconference tournaments whatever. But 121 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: it's just the idea of like, um, did you guys 122 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: ever have those football or basketball festivals when your kids? 123 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: I like it, Like, you know, you get four eight 124 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: teams in a bubble, everybody plays everybody. You get a 125 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: chance to really really work on your stuff. Like it's 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: about the celebration of the sport. It's about teams getting better. 127 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: And I don't know if the wins and losses should 128 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: be as important. You look, if you lose every game 129 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: in these bubbles, then yeah it's it's important. But I 130 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: think you gets a chance to play against more local teams. Um, 131 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: that wouldn't be as much travel. I just I like 132 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: these ideas. I know that's a it's a tremendous scramble. 133 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: A lot of college coaches listen to this podcast. The 134 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: scramble to fixture schedule is insane. I saw Mike Boyden, 135 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: who you should download our podcast. Mike Boyden. It's really 136 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: really good. I mean, just a fascinating guy, great personal 137 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: story growing up uh in New York City as a 138 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: tremendous point guard, made his way down to South Carolina 139 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: and of course has established himself as a tremendous, tremendous 140 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: recruiter and head coach at Oklam State. They're gonna have 141 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: Kake Cunningham this year number one prospect, but not gonna 142 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: be able to as of now, to play in the 143 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: n c A Tournament. Still, he did a kind of 144 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: like a mock press conference, where like, we don't know 145 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: when we're playing or where we're playing. We just know 146 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: that they'll be a college basketball season. That's how everybody feels. 147 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: But I love these little pods and the chance to 148 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: play a bunch of games and just go like old 149 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: a U stylets go to the hotel, plays video games, 150 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: go down and hoop and do it every day. And 151 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: I think moving the moving the season back to where 152 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: it starts at Thanksgiving time so you're not missing class. 153 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: I think that it's awesome Thankgiving Christmas break and then 154 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: we come out of it, students get back. Now let's 155 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: get the conference play. And conference play is what should 156 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: matter most, what should matter most in regards to the 157 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: NBA bubble. It's obviously far more detrimental in terms of 158 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: mental health of some of these guys. Some of them 159 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,679 Speaker 1: are struggling. But I think it's fascinating the development of 160 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: of draft picks. Look at what Denver is doing. Look 161 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: at the culture that they're building and their ability to 162 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: do it with their own draft picks. Jamal Murray and 163 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: Yo Kitchen now Michael Porter Jr. Obviously Gary Harris like 164 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: those are guys to be able to draft and develop. 165 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: That speaks to a really good culture. That speaks to 166 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: the players themselves have to buy into it, but also 167 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: to the coaching staff understanding what it's gonna be. That's 168 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: gonna be the future of most mid sized, small markets. 169 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: That's why you're seeing so many of these recruiting gurus 170 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: leave their job and go to the NBA to be 171 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: their amateur basketball guru. That's the few The future of 172 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: the sport is. You're gonna have to draft guys really 173 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: really young and develop them, protect them and hope they 174 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: fit into your style. All right, one last thing before 175 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: we get to Jeff Perroman. I do want to talk 176 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: about the Maria Taylor tweet. You can check out my 177 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: Twitter feed and I think my i g feed and 178 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: I've said this before, and I'll say it again, in 179 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: all honesty, it's it. My My issue isn't with Maria 180 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: Taylor as a studio host. I think she's good and 181 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: I think she does a good job of leading a discussion, 182 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: which is what you do when your studio host. My 183 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: issue is with we just kind of hand out votes 184 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: to people because they're around the league, and um, it's 185 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: it's fascinating. You know, there's on some level of me 186 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: there's the former player, not NBA player, And I understand 187 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: you're like, well, do you have to play in the NBA. No, 188 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: But I did play professional basketball for three years and 189 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: played games in ten different countries, played with three different teams. 190 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: Plus I played in I think five different minor leagues 191 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: and played in the NBA Summer League. Like there's a 192 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: difference in that level of experience, I would think. Plus 193 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: I've covered it for twenty years. But it's like Doris Burke, 194 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: who didn't play in the league, didn't play men's basketball, 195 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: obviously played in coach but she's covered basketball enough that 196 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: I would say that's the type of person I'd like 197 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: to judge. Who's you know, she calls fifty games a year, 198 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: she can talk to any GM and any coach, he 199 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: can form her own opinion like all of those things. 200 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: She's well rounded enough, and that's what her job calls on, 201 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: her ability to make basketball decisions like who the top 202 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: fifteen players are in the league? Now, Look, most of 203 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: us could do it, and I think Marie Taylor probably 204 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: just made a mistake. And that mistake was probably because 205 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: she's doing too much, and maybe she didn't at the time. No, like, hey, 206 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: this actually affects guys paychecks because the Supermax and other 207 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: contracts are based upon these awards. So with that mind, 208 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: I actually think what I said was in relation to 209 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: what like the same thing as Lebron saying, how can 210 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: sixteen people vote me the m v P A league? 211 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: Don't you know what I've done with this team? Haven't 212 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: you seen the things I've done? They don't show up 213 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: in the stat column? And the answer is no, because 214 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: lots of people who talk about basketball don't actually know basketball. 215 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: You know that, I know that you watch you like 216 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: oh man, right, um so look, if if you're listening, 217 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: and I hate when people do this, right, they always say, well, 218 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: like if you took it as well, that's not apologizing 219 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: because I don't actually think I said anything wrong that 220 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: the problem is we're in a time where everybody's hyper sensitive. 221 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: I didn't even kind of realize Maria Taylor had been 222 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: criticized previously. I have. I have nothing in terms of 223 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: criticism for our actual work. Zero. She's good. It's the host, 224 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: which is the sideline for the college game day or 225 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: for football. Like, she's good, and that's that's a hard job. 226 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: I've done it a couple of times. It's not actually 227 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: easy to do it well. And I think you provide 228 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: something in terms of content which is needed for the broads. 229 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: That said, she did just start covering the NBA, so 230 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: she doesn't have the chops per se. And even if 231 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: she did, like when your studio host, that's not really 232 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: what your job entails. You're supposed to lead a discussion. 233 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: You're supposed to listen, you're supposed to rete people, set 234 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: them up, call the highlight, and let the analysts analyze. 235 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Voting for the All NBA team is an analyst job, 236 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: is an opinion job. And those aren't her jobs. Not 237 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: because she's a woman, not because she's a black woman, 238 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: but because she's a host and not having the depth 239 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: of contacts, wherewithal having not even been to these NBA games. 240 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: Because of the setup for COVID, we're asking her to 241 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: do something which she doesn't have a great uh connection to, 242 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: even if she loves the sport and watches the sport 243 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: and talks about the sport in a nightly basis. I 244 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: think that's reasonable. What's unreasonable is how we turn it 245 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: into something about sexism and racism, which it is not. 246 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: It's actually the opposite of it. Because I I would 247 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: say the same thing about Adam Zuker at CBS talking 248 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: about the SEC and Adam is a great friend of mine. 249 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: I'd say that about anybody who would replace her until 250 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: you've been there a long time, and even then it's 251 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: really more of an analyst job. All right, let's welcome 252 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: him in. He's the author of Gunslinger, of Football for 253 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: a Buck of Sweetness, the story of Walter Payton, the 254 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: Rocket that fell to Earth, The Bad Guys One Man. 255 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: He's got so many fantastic books. Showtime was one as well, 256 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: and his newest book is Three Ring Circus. He's a 257 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling award winning author. He's Jeff Perlman. 258 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: He joins us on the All Ball podcast. Be sure 259 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: to catch the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show 260 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: weekdays at three pm Easter Noon Pacific on Fox Sports 261 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: Radio and the I Heart Radio a app. The book 262 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: is Three Ring Circus Kobe, Shack, Phil and the Crazy 263 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: Years The Laker Dynasty. Award winning author Jeff Perlman kind 264 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: of have to spend some time with this, and Jeff, 265 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: you've You've done the Showtime book. Okay, it's all. Now 266 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: you do. Now you do the three, Now you do 267 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: the Kobe Shacky Years. Um, compare and contrast in terms 268 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: of uh, in terms of what the feel is like 269 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: going back and looking at each team. So I feel like, 270 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: because I'm a child of the A E. D. S, 271 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: there's a level of nostalgia for Magic and Cream that 272 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: will never be matched for me as far as being 273 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: a kid in New York growing up and watching seeing them, 274 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, the CBS cameras fall into the Forum and 275 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: you see the palm trees and the lake or girls 276 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: like that is that was for me? Was you know, 277 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: I just love at first sight. But I would say 278 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: the characters here are just as profound. I don't think 279 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: you'll ever have a character to write about who's interesting 280 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: as Kobe Bryant, and I don't think you'll have another character. 281 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: This is interesting as Shaquill and NEOs. So if you're 282 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: just taking like, I find both of them much more 283 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: interesting and compelling characters, obbably than Magic Johnson. Um. So 284 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: that was kind of a gift, to be honest. That's 285 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: the characters of this dynostay are awesome. That's amazing to 286 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: be more colorful and interesting than Magic Johnson. Considering the 287 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: era and everything we know and learned from from your 288 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: last book about the Lakers, Um, how what was the 289 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: process like of writing about Kobe, especially now with him 290 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: unfortunately passing and the view of like, I hope that 291 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: people understand it's not just because of the plane crash, 292 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: like our our world view of Kobe Bryant changed dramatically 293 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: in the past three or four years, even before his 294 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: untimely death. What's it like to go back and try 295 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: and give a snapshot of what he was like back then? So, 296 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: first of all, it's very weird, Like it's weird to 297 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: be promoting a book during the time, it's weird to 298 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: be talking about it. Um. I actually finished the book 299 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: before he died, so I was done with it and 300 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: I was actually sitting in a coffee shop. Um, when 301 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: someone texted me. A friend texted me and wrote, I'm 302 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: not sure if you heard Kobe Bryant reports you're dead. 303 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: Blew my mind, depressed, sad, everything. And then after obviously 304 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: it's you know, you have to move on, and you 305 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: sort of think what am I supposed to do here? 306 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: Because the book it's not that warm. I mean there 307 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: are warm moments of Kobe Bryant, but he was difficult. 308 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean you know that he was difficult, actually, and 309 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: there's a whole Ego Colorado thing that hangs over the 310 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: whole time period. So what I did is I went back. 311 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: I wrote an author's note the book has done but 312 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: then let me put it basically a three page author's note. 313 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: And the point I really tried to make him that 314 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: I believe in is, um, you know who someone is 315 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: isn't who they are forty one and we almost though 316 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: if you judge any of us at that age, we 317 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: were kind of punks and we were cocky, and we 318 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: were whatever. And then you get older and you have kids, 319 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: and you you have your own sports career end or 320 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: whatever career ends, and you learn and I just I 321 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: really do It's super important for me that people know 322 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: this is a snapshot of time. It is not who 323 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: he was when he died. He was a different person 324 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: and he evolved a lot in his life. Well, I 325 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: mean it's like, look, one, I'm glad you did that. Secondly, 326 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: you're right. I mean I've talked about this a lot 327 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: of my show. I as he we were about the 328 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: same age, we became friends. Uh late in his career. 329 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: Our daughters went to the same school. And I think 330 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: you know, he changed several times during his life, as 331 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: we all do, and matured in different ways. Right. He 332 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: went from early on his NBA life trying to talk, 333 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: walk everything like Michael Jordan's. Then he went through that 334 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of um hood phase. Right, that's when he had 335 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: like a rap album. He was trying to be a 336 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: kid from the hood, which wasn't really him and didn't 337 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: feel authentic. And then he started to find Then then 338 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: after Shaq left and he wanted to be traded with. 339 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Then then he started to be kind of more of 340 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: I felt like who he really was, a much more 341 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 1: refined husband and father. After after Eagle County, Colorado. Um, 342 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: he was still difficult, he was just different. And then 343 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: after retirement, he became this kind of profound thinker, philosopher 344 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: and sharer of of so much knowledge. But he was 345 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: he was so different, And I think he's one of 346 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: those guys that we've seen evolved before our very Like 347 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: we met him as a seventeen year old kid and 348 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: he died all during our lifetime, and I think that's why. 349 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: That's why it's it's he's such an interesting character. I 350 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: actually think a lot of ways, Kobe Bryant is the example, 351 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: especially early Kobe Bryant. Why how you see all the 352 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: parent here hiring their tutors and making their kids play 353 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: once four year round and I'm going to turn you 354 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: into blank. You're going to be an NFL quarterback. You're 355 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: gonna be how toxic that can be? And how a 356 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: kid needs to have driving lessons and a kid needs 357 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: to ask someone out and get rejected, and a kid 358 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: needs to get bad grades in school and have to 359 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: bounce back, and a kid needs to have the keys 360 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: taking like you need those development metal moments you do. 361 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: You can't just be programmed to be something. And the 362 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: thing that Kobe Bryant had, yes, it made him a 363 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: great basketball player. That is undeniable, but his inability to 364 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: relate with teammates. I mean I read about this in 365 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: a book. He shows up for his first camp with 366 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: the Lakers in Hawaii. All the players are introducing themselves 367 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: and his introduction is, my name's Kobe Bryant, knowing here 368 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: is gonna punk me like that is what he thought 369 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: was the appropriate introduction ADE eighteen to the Los Angeles Lake. 370 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: There's there are moments in his career when you know. 371 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: There was one time when Shack to everyone out for dinner, 372 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: everyone on the team after dinner the fancy seafood restaurant. 373 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: Kobe says, no, I'm not going to go and shows 374 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: up a half hour later with a book and gets 375 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: the table for one. And now are just looking at Cobra. 376 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: When he got married in Dana pointe Um, none of 377 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: his teammates were invited. Most of his teammates didn't know 378 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: he was getting married, and a lot of them didn't 379 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: know he was even dating. So he just had this 380 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: one And I'll tell you one more thing that oh 381 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: three or four season when car Malone is there, someone 382 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: told me this one story. He was interviewing car Malone 383 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and it's about to be Thanksgiving next day Thanksgiving or 384 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: two days later, and Kobe is walking out of the 385 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: locker room and Carmelone says to the reporter, hold on, 386 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: one second, hold on. He goes, hey, young Buck, come 387 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: over here, and he signals for Kobe to come over, 388 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: and he whispers somethings to Kobe's ear, and Kobe leaves, 389 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: and he says, hey, have a good Thanksgiving, have a 390 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: good Thanksgiving to all of his teammates, Like Carmelone had 391 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: to tell him, when you leave, in your position where 392 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: you are on this team, you have to be gracious 393 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: and need to wish these people all good Thanksgiving. Little 394 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: things like that he did not develop into much later 395 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: in life, when you and I probably got them when 396 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: we were sixteen and your mom says, hey, we leave 397 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: the house, say thank happy Thanksgiving to your inn. Yeah. 398 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: Or things that you're learning in college. I'm a I'm 399 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: a proponent of of college basketball teaching guys about so 400 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: many more things that maybe they may eventually learn. But 401 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: there's a bit of an arrested development there when they 402 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: when they go right from high school to to the 403 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: pros um What about Shack, I mean he he is 404 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: both literally and figuratively bigger than life, and uh, the 405 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: late text winner was. I moved to California because my 406 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: dad was Text Winners assistant Lombie State. And so when 407 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: he's with the Bulls he told me things about Jordan's 408 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: and when he was with the Lakers, he would tell 409 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: me that that Shack could have been the greatest big 410 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: guy ever. But he just wanted to be shock and 411 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: he was okay with that. I've heard so many incredible 412 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: things about what type of human he is, what type 413 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: of teammate he is, But again those are a couple 414 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: more surface area stuff from from a limited time in 415 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: working out with the team, playing summer league with them. 416 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: What was he really like? See? I actually think text 417 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: when there's right, he could have been the greatest, you know, 418 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: arguably the greatest center ever. But I don't think it's wrong. 419 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: What happened? Like he did want to be shocked. He 420 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: wanted to do albums, He wanted to be in movies, 421 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: he wanted to he wanted to spend his off seasons 422 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: in his pool in Orlando, smoking cigars, hanging out with friends, whatever, 423 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, like he wanted. He was twenty seven years old, 424 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: making millions of dollars to play a game, and he 425 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: wanted to relax. And I just I get the criticism, 426 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: I really do, And it drove Kobe crazy that this 427 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: guy was not a quote unquote harder worker. He was 428 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: never going to be the guy who was in the 429 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: gym shooting five thousand jumpers. He was never gonna be 430 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: the guy he's like, if I don't shoot from the 431 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: free throw line this year, my season is a failure. 432 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: He just wasn't that guy. But I think he enjoyed 433 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: the journey, Like I think he really enjoyed the journey. 434 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: I think he enjoyed the journey far more than Kobe 435 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: enjoyed the journey. And maybe that's okay. And maybe the 436 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: fact that he's just the top five all time NBA 437 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: center instead of the greatest of all time, but he 438 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: had a really good time doing it in the grand 439 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: scheme of life, is more valuable than all of us 440 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: talking on sports talk radio. How great, how Shock is 441 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: the greatest center of all time? That's that's that's probably 442 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: probably very very very accurate. We all want guys to 443 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: to to live up to something that we think they 444 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: should want to live up to. That doesn't mean it 445 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: fulfills him, doesn't mean it fills up his personal cup. 446 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: You mentioned Karl Malone. There was also Gary Payton on 447 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: that team, you had Phil Jackson. That was the team 448 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: that didn't work. Why. I mean, I know they had injuries, 449 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: and people downplay the injuries as a factor, but what 450 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: was it? Simply the in fighting between Kobe and Shack 451 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: in the marriage that had to end. It's so funny. 452 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: When I was working in the book, I sat down 453 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: with Genie Buss and I've interviewed her a bunch over 454 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: the years. I love Genie Buss great, and I said 455 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: to her exactly what you just said to me. I 456 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: was like, why did that? You're not work? And she 457 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: said to me kind of angrily, She's like, when does 458 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: it become not work when you make the NBA Finals? 459 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: And She's like, when does that? When does that a failure? 460 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: Like we may be NBA Finals, they cannot say that 461 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: you are a total failure. And I think there's something 462 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: to be said for that. That being said, there were 463 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: just so many First of all, Peyton should not have 464 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: been running a triangle. He should have been the point 465 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: guard in triangle off and just should have been Derek Fisher. 466 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: George Jackson never really wanted him running the point. They 467 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: brought him in any way, Um malone was sporting, but 468 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: he still who brought in? Who brought it? Who brought 469 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: in Gary Payton? That was a Jim Buss, Uh directive. 470 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: That wasn't even Jerry Buss. It was the suggestion and 471 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: will of Jim Buss. And uh they were okay that year. No, 472 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: but that's not but if you and and this is 473 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: and I'll talk about this little later in the pod. 474 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: I mean, when the triangle, you can't really be a 475 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: real dominant ball handling point guard and be effective in 476 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: the triangle. It is by design, that's not what it's for. Um. 477 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: You have to be able to play off the basketball 478 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: as much as with the basketball. And there are some 479 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: things that he does, you know, in terms of posting 480 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: up and isolations that are good. But they already had Shack, 481 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: they already had Kobe for that. And so yeah, it 482 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: was one of those great player, bad fit and at 483 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: a weird time in his career when he had to 484 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: adjust to having a role as opposed to being the guy. 485 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Derek Fisher was sort of the 486 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: ideal triangle point guards, didn't need to score, could score 487 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: more than happy to pass the ball. He was a 488 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: great triangle point card. But Gary Paytmore was a sexy 489 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: furniture in the other house, you know, and they brought 490 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: him in, so that was bad. Shaq definitely was not 491 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: in great shape. Um. He wanted his contract to renegotiated. 492 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: That was the preseason when he ran past Jerry Bosses 493 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: during a preseason game and yelled pay me while doing 494 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: the money sign with his hands. Um. Kobe was about 495 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: to be a free agent and would not play with 496 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: Shock anymore. Like he was out of the question about 497 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: playing with Shock anymore. Was very, very, very very tempted 498 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: to go to the Clippers. At one point during a 499 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: game against the Clippers, said to the coach Mike Dunleavy 500 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: during a time out, get me out of here. Um. 501 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: Jerry Buss didn't know what to do with Phil Jackson. 502 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: You really don't want to bring him back. Of course, 503 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: Phil was Dave and Genie Buss at the same time, 504 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: and Genie obviously wants him back, but she's not going 505 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: to let that interview with the business decisions. So all 506 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: this mess is going on. They played Detroit in the 507 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: Finals that Detroit is just a better team at that point. 508 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: You know, people say, oh, Malone, it was a better 509 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: team to trade. Was a as well oiled machine you'll 510 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: ever see in a finals, considering they had no superstars 511 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: of that team. They were ridiculous. And they beat him 512 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: in five. And as soon as game five is over, 513 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: and Kareem Rush told me Kobe's backup back then told 514 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: me they had a little party after the game five, 515 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: washed thrown by Jerry Bus for the players, and Kobe 516 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: walks in and he walks up to Cream Rush and 517 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: he says, I'm never playing with that MF for ever again. 518 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: And he's talking about Shack, and Jerry Bus walks into 519 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: that meeting as well, into that party as well. Shaq 520 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: is there with his wife. Jerry Buss walks right past 521 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: Shock and his wife and talks talks to Kobe and 522 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: never says a word to Shock. And Shack said he 523 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: knew it was done. Hm, why why was it done? 524 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: Why did it? Why? Why was it? Why did it 525 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: get to that point? How do you why? Right like there? 526 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: I mean, was it was? It? Was it Colorado? And 527 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: what Kobe said about Shack, you know, was it? How 528 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: Shack was, and how everybody love Shack and Kobe was 529 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: a love hate thing at that point in time in 530 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: l A. Why, I honestly think from the very very 531 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: time he arrived in the NBA, Kobe Bryant expected to 532 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: be Michael Jordan's and he just that was his model. 533 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: He expected to be Mike. And it's funny the Nets 534 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: almost drafted him a number eight and Calipari backed out 535 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: at the last second. And I think if he goes 536 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: to the Nets and that was the team with like 537 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: Ed O'Bannon and calyd Reeves and like Kankadari and terrible, 538 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: he's probably averaging five as a rookie shooting and having 539 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: these years of just joy scoring for bad teams um 540 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: And I think a part of him always wanted that, 541 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: to be honest, He wanted to win, obviously desperately, but 542 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: he needed to be the focal point. He just needed 543 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: to be the focal point. It was something in him 544 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: that I cannot be the number two. I'm not going 545 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: to be the number two. This is not my feet 546 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: in basketball. And he was just done and he found shocked, dismissive. 547 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: He hated Shacks, lack of work, ethic, you couldn't understand 548 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: how this guy couldn't hit a freaking free throw, And 549 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: after a while it's just and there was that moment 550 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: you're right, like Kobe kind of read it out shock 551 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: to the detectives in Colorado, and then, um, you know 552 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: they're they're just moments throughout the when they report to 553 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: training camp and Kobe isn't there yet, and the reporter 554 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: a Shack, are you are you disappointed not having your 555 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: team here? And his responses, my team is here. There's 556 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: all these blows, one after another. It was your you 557 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: know you could not repair it. Um, what about Phil Jackson? 558 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: As I pointed out earlier, you wrote the book Showtime. Obviously, 559 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean pat Riley and and and Riley even now, 560 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: like Riley's a little bit like Kobe. How we view 561 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: Riley now as opposed to Riley back then? Very very different? Right? Um? 562 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: What was Phil Jackson like? Um? Obviously empowered not just 563 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: by what he did with the bulls in the six titles, 564 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: but the fact that nobody could figure out Shack and Kobe, right, 565 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: many had tried that, you know, del Harris had famously failed. 566 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: He does figure it out. What was Phil Jackson like 567 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: with this? Team. I would say, in Dale Harris's defense, 568 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it would have worked with him. I 569 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: don't think it would have. But you know, she has 570 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: given Nick Van Afterwards his point guard and now is 571 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: a pretty tough thing to deal with for a coach 572 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: of his, you know, his ILK. And then Kurt Rambas 573 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: comes in. You know, Rambis got it off to a 574 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: really good start, but really baby eat Kobe and that 575 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: drove shot crazy. And the thing about Phil Jackson coming in, 576 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: it's it sounds coiny and it sounds simple, but it's true. 577 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: He shows up with the six rings, and he shows 578 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: up having done it with Jordan's and he just arrives 579 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: with this largeness of the other two coaches that did 580 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: not have And you had to listen to him, and 581 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: you had to respect him. And he had the resume, 582 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: and he had text Winner with him, who was the 583 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: architect of the triangle, and you had to listen to 584 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: these guys. And the other thing he did really well 585 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 1: is he basically had deputies in the locker room, you know, 586 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: like in the same way with in Chicago. Why it 587 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: worked as he was willing to make allowances and kind 588 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: of keep a hands off approach in l A. You know, um, 589 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: Ron Harper, you know, hey, Brian Shaw, Hey, you know 590 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: any of these guys Jr. Read whoever, I'm not jr. Read, 591 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: but you know John Sally, Um, I need you guys 592 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: to help me out. So can you handle this? I 593 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: need you guys tell me what the what the tone 594 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: is in this locker room. He didn't have to babysit 595 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: every day. He was not everyone thing's like, wow, he 596 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: has his heavy hand with him. He actually didn't had 597 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: a very light hand with them. He just kind of 598 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: let it work out. And sometimes if Shack and Kobe 599 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: were bickering, he would just let it go. He assumed 600 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: it would kind of help them. Maybe that fire would 601 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: actually spread a little bit and it would get them going. 602 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: And when he needed to have these behind closed door meetings, 603 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: he had a famous one with Rick Fox and Shack 604 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,479 Speaker 1: where he asked him in that last season, can we 605 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: win with Kobe? And Shack's answer is no? And Rick 606 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: Fox wasn't sure and he didn't really have a choice. 607 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,239 Speaker 1: He had to keep going with him, but it was 608 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: he was willing to do that. He was really perfect 609 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: for that team while it lasted. UM one story that 610 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: did not make the book that you wish would have. 611 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: Oh man, I mean there's the one thing I didn't 612 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: really get into that I kind of regret, just because 613 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: I've been asked about that a bunch of times. I 614 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: didn't really get that much on it is the whole 615 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: car Malone, Kobe's wife, not looking for not looking for 616 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: like gosipy nonsense. But I don't know, a lot of 617 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: people seem to think that had a bigger impact than 618 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: I did. And now it masked about it all the time, 619 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of like, yeah, I didn't. I just 620 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: didn't go down that road. You know, they're only summary 621 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: roads you can go down. But it's kind of intriguing. 622 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: And Carmelone's entire relationship with Kobe is really because he 623 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: was another guy I'm gonna mentor Kobe. I'm gonna help Kobe, 624 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: Kobe's gonna listen to me, and he was another guy 625 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: who kind of tuned out Carmelone. Um, okay, you mentioned 626 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: Gary Gary Payton, Um, what was what was he like 627 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: during this entire thing? You know what's funny about Gary Payton. 628 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: He's so I spent a spend a lot of time 629 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: with Jannie McCoy former u C l A player then 630 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: Sonic then Laker. Gary Payte could be ruinous you kindly, 631 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: I mean Gary Paine could be ruinous to teammates and 632 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: as mean as a snake, like as mean as you 633 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: could be, and cruel. Jillannie McCoy told me Gary Payton 634 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: was a kind of guy who you show up and 635 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: you're excited because you have a new watch, and you 636 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: show your teammates, Hey, look at this new rolex. My 637 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: my wife, Bobby, isn't this amazing? And Gary Payton was 638 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: a guy who had to say, oh, yeah, well my watches. 639 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: So he can never be that guy. And he showed 640 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: up with the Lakers. And actually, the funny thing is 641 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: he sort of stepped out aside a little bit. I 642 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: think it was weird for him to be in a 643 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: position where he was not the marquee and he wasn't 644 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: going to be the loudest guy in the room, and 645 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: he kind of stepped out aside for the Lakers. But 646 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: he grew very frustrated by the triangle. And if you 647 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: watch the finals, if you rewatch it, I mean he 648 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: got destroyed defensively in that finals, jest destroyed at one 649 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: point Um, he was guarding Chauncey Billips and during a 650 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: practice Kobe said to Phil Jackson out loud in front 651 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: of the team, why don't you switch? Why don't you switch? 652 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: So I'm guarding Chauncey and Joe Jackson didn't do it, 653 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: And later on Kobe admitted to him, I was just 654 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: testing to see if Gary Payton would would protest, and 655 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: he didn't. And that was a moment where he actually 656 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: lost the little respect for for Gary Payton. Last thing, Um, 657 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: doing both books, this team was more vivid, right, the 658 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: personalities were sharp, were brighter. Um, but but but but 659 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: which do you think is it should go down as 660 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: historically better in your from your perspective? Oh, I think 661 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: the Magic Korean years. I do think if you look 662 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: all around, you know, like the number three guy on 663 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: these teams is always Glenn Rice or Eddie Jones, number 664 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: three guy in no teams are teams worthy? And then 665 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: you have Jamal will Yeah, well yeah, Michael, Mike Tom 666 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: Michael Thompson came out. Michael cooper'sional, Yeah you don't, you 667 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: don't you know? All right, that probably wasn't the greatest question. 668 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: All right, here's here's here's one more you mentioned. You 669 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: mentioned Glenn Rice, right, Remember Glenn Rice's wife complained openly 670 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: about his role. He was only with the Lakers for 671 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: one championship and then he was gone. Um that that 672 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: was the kind of fascinating to me, that that Phil 673 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: started to exert his power. Like there was all of 674 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: this stuff working at once. Which makes it even more fascinating, 675 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: was it was Phil exerting power and now making decisions 676 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: with personnel and arguing about personnel. It was Kobe and Shack, 677 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: it was you know, uh, it was some of these 678 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: guys d n the road. It was the departure of 679 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: Derek Fisher, like, there was there was a lot. Yeah, 680 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: it's really funny. I talked to Glenn Rice for the 681 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: book and I was like, when your wife talked to 682 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: Bill Plasky from the l A Times and He's like, God, 683 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: that was the worst. He's like, wasn't that the worst? 684 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: It was? He was mortified, you know, because they were 685 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: on the road. It was the finals. And there was 686 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: this column that just comes out about Glenn Rice's wife 687 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: saying that Joe never liked him and he was kind 688 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: of undermining her, undermining him and the whole thing and 689 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: Glenn Rice is just trying to make you get get 690 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: on with his life and play basketball. He said it 691 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: was one of the most embarrassing sort of moments of 692 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: his career, or was that? And it definitely did not 693 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: help his stay in l A at all, It made 694 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: it much shorter. Well, Jeff, you've done a lot of 695 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: great things. Here's my here's my my ask to you. 696 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: I want to read the book. I want to read 697 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: the book. You've you've given us a reason, everybody reason 698 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: to go out and buy it right now. I want 699 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: to read the book, go through it, uh, and then 700 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: and then talk through some of these stories and do 701 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: this again. Is it okay? That'd be great? Absolutely to 702 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: Jeff proman awesome stuff. Thanks for joining us. All right, 703 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Be sure to catch the live 704 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: edition of The Doug gott Leap Show weekdays at three 705 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: p m. Easter noon Pacific. All right, thanks Jeff again. 706 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,959 Speaker 1: You can pick up three reading Circus. You can order 707 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: online at Jeff Perlman dot com, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, 708 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: wherever you pick up books. My my, thanks and I 709 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: encourage you to go out and if you like to 710 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: read or view audio books. His stuff is fantastic, fantastic. UM. 711 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: I'll leave you with this as we move on to 712 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: the NBA Finals. I'm intrigued by Lebron and what happens 713 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: and how quickly they can close out the Denver Nuggets. 714 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: They're the favorites to win. They match up better with 715 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: the Heat than they do, even though the Heat have 716 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: Andrea Dolla. I just Egg's age and he can't score. 717 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler could be a nuisance. But you know, I 718 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: don't think that the Heat match up terribly well with 719 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: the Lakers. The fear with the Lakers is the longer 720 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: the Nuggets series goes, the more likely you're gonna have 721 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: Lebron at times being fatigued or maybe get hurt one 722 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: of them, one of their guys get hurt. They're an 723 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: older team they've benefited from. I think when their kids 724 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: showed up it re energized them. I think when they 725 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: had the protest, they missed two games that game and 726 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: then and then five game series. Whereas they've played the 727 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: last two opponents Rockets now Nuggets are both seven game 728 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: series teams. They've been the fresher team. The longer it goes, 729 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: the more likely you have for a Lebron to tire, 730 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: and if Lebron doesn't have the right energy, that's when 731 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: the Lakers don't look right. All right, my my, Thanks 732 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: to uh Jeff Perlman for joining us, for you for downloaded, subscribing, 733 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: and rating this podcast. Thanks so much for listening. I'm 734 00:35:42,840 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieban. This is all ball w