WEBVTT - The Arms Race Fueling the Creator Economy 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.480 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.640 which we talked with some of the brightest minds working 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.200 in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.959 There may be an estimated fifty million people active in 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.360 the so called creator economy, but only a fraction of 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.440 them are making the truly big bucks. And that's where 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.600 my next guest comes in. Dan Weinstein has been representing 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.560 some of the influencers with the largest audiences for over 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.920 a decade, even before everyone started calling them influencers. Now 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.320 he's doing it again as part of a new management firm, 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.920 Underscore Talent, which gives us a good opportunity to see 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:55.440 how this rapidly evolving business continues to change. Welcome back 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.040 to Strictly Business with Dan Weinstein, co founder of Underscore Talent, 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.400 which represents some pretty big names in the influencer world. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.840 Maybe you've heard of the kid duo of Lad and 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.080 Nikki here in the top ten among total subscribers by 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.920 some counts, or the Royalty family or the Labrand family. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.400 Like I mentioned, Dan, you've been active in this space 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.679 for a long time, so tell me what is it 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.240 about this business that you've stuck with all this time, 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.120 is the opportunity here bigger than it's ever been? And 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:28.760 why yes, thanks Andy, and I you know, even more 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.760 so than I think around you know, five or six 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.600 years ago. The opportunity for creators to build meaningful businesses 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:39.120 and be sort of entrepreneurial is exponential to where it was. 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:41.600 You look at, you know, somewhere like three or four 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.959 years ago, when the top creators in the space maybe 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.440 five years ago, you know, we're lucky if they were 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.480 earning a million dollars a year, two million dollars a year. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.040 That was the top half of one percent, and it 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:57.040 was generally driven by brands. Now you've got the top 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.160 half of that same one percent earning twenty thirty forty 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.280 million dollars in building companies that you know, I think 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.440 arguably could be the next unicorns in the in the 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.000 coming you know, coming decade. And that's just a really 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.360 exciting place to be. And you know, I love being 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.680 sort of a very disruptive um, you know industry. So 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.200 what changed here? Because I remember those days where it 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.040 was all about, you know, get the brand deal and 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.760 you know the rest is gravy, and now it seems 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.080 like it's the gravy where the money is made. Yeah, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.200 it's so it's interesting, I think, um, you know, a 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:38.400 while ago, it was the thesis around the whole company, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.240 even started two thousand seven, was that access to an 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.119 audience was going to drive meaningful value. Right. It was disintermediation. 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.040 You could circumvent the gatekeepers, go direct to your audience, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.919 and you know, the heavens will open up and money 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.120 will write down upon you. Um. And I think some 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.720 of that was true, right, And a lot of it, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.520 again was was driven by advertising. But the technology, the 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.280 plat forms, the companies that have been built even in 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:07.800 the last two years to further strengthen that relationship with 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.320 an audience and provide a low barrier entry to monetize 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.680 that audience in myriad ways has allowed creators that that 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.720 aren't even in that top half of one percent to 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.800 build sustainable and real businesses. You know, I call it 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.360 sort of that middle class of creators are now able 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:29.120 to leverage their audience, price people's passion or fandom in 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:34.000 meaningful ways provide whether it's exclusivity or content or memberships 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.360 or all these other things that are coming about to 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.480 drive real revenue and and and brands and advertising is 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.840 becoming less and less of an important piece. When I 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.160 would first talk to you about this back in in 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.480 two thousand seven, when you were dealing with names like 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.640 and I wonder, who's going to remember the likes of 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:58.320 Annoying Orange. Um, you know Lucas, Uh, what is this 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:03.280 Lucas cruchank right? And back then it was I remember 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.840 you telling me it was all about you get your 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.000 start on the platform, but then you've got to graduate that. 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.720 I pe so that you know, Lucas gets his TV show, 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.600 Annoying Orange gets his movie, and you guys you were 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.600 great at that. Um did some real pioneering work there. Um. 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.440 Is that no longer the case because that's you know, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.520 my from my Hollywood vantage point. Uh, that was the 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.240 be all and end all ten years ago. Yeah, that 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.679 I that's definitely not the case anymore. Um. And and 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.080 I think back then, you know, we we made we 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.640 were still innovative in the way that we made these movies. Right. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.359 We leveraged our access to the audience. We put in 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.040 our own capital to drive a better economic outcome, which 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.839 I think was really interesting at the time. But the 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.680 goal was get on TV, get in movies. Seldom music 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.200 do do the traditional sort of Hollywood thing. Um now, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.400 I think you know it's almost TV and film are 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.280 still important, but it's one spoke of that wheel right 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.160 and it and it has to be under the right 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.880 set of circumstances. In terms take a property like like 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:15.479 uh good Mythical Morning with the Mythical Entertainment Crew. Years ago, 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.680 I would have said, that is a late night TV show. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.040 We need to go to MTV or NBC or one 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.200 of these places and and sell this into into late night. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.640 We'll drive the audience, it will be it'll be great. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:32.120 That's gonna be the win. And the reality is today 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.000 when you look at it, britten Link would say, well, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.480 why would we do that? We own the show, we 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.920 are super profitable, we have a media company that has 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.320 eighty year ninety executives in it. We've built products around it, 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.400 We've built other vehicles and other talent around it. This 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.680 is the asset that we're going to continue to sort 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.680 of build. Why would we let MTV own that that 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:00.320 asset for a much less economic upside? And I think 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.640 you're seeing a lot of that today. I think it's gone. 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.120 There are definitely people you know and creators that want 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.120 to be in movies and television and where that will 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:11.600 drive real value, But it's certainly not the only opportunity, um, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.040 and it has to be a part of the right 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.480 sort of overall strategy. What you're saying actually reminds me 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.440 of another former client of yours, Lily Singh, who I think, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.440 after you represented her, went on to late night TV 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.120 at NBC for I think just a few years. And 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.919 I don't know that that was necessarily a successful experiment. 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.359 Not not that anyone's worried about her. I think I 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.000 think she's gonna do just fine. Yeah, I think I think, Look, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.080 Lily is an incredibly talented creative and she'll be and 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.880 she'll be you know, great and whatever she sort of does. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.159 I think it was an interesting experiment. I mean, I 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:46.760 think part of the thesis was that can you know, 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.240 can she drive her audience to you know, television, And 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.000 I think the reality is is that, you know, primarily 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.159 her audience is not going to stay up and watch 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.839 you know, late night television at two in the morning 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.680 on on NBC, and and the format was not what 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.360 was sort of, um the crux of what drew that 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.240 audience to her in the first place, and so it 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:10.840 was kind of trying to bring the Internet to television 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.120 and it wasn't separate, and I just think it wasn't, 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:15.320 you know, a bit of a failed experiment. And I'm 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.120 sure there were a lot of reasons why, including NBC 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.600 and and you know, in Lily's camp, um, you know, 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.720 but yeah, I don't. I don't think was was the 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.880 home run that it was anticipating. So influencers don't need 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.560 Hollywood anymore. Give me, as a point of contrast, walk 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.720 me through an existing client of yours and the spokes 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.480 of the wheel and the many ways they're making money, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.200 which I would assume are is very heavy on, you know, 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.680 merchandise licensing. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:54.000 different ways. So so we'll take the Royalty Family by example. Right, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.480 So they've got you know, north of twelve or thirteen 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.440 million subscribers on YouTube. They produced content, you know, on 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:04.720 a daily basis. They generate a tremendous amount of revenue 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:10.280 passively from advertising on on YouTube, the ad sense revenue. Right. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.200 We then also have partnered with them to take their 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:19.040 content into other other platforms that are also monetizing, like Facebook, 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.960 like Snapchat, where we're sort of repurposing their their sort 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.480 of really robust library of content and and driving incremental 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.679 and passive and recurring revenue from other platforms. We also 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.199 sort of partnered with them on their will call it merchandise, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.120 but I think it goes beyond that. It's it's less 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.240 hats and t shirts. UM. You know, the mother of 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.520 the mom of the group is very into fitness, and 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.600 we started sort of in a very bespoke way to 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.120 create a line of at leisure where that we're in 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.160 the middle of developing. We think that's going to be 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.319 hugely successful. There's a couple of other consumer product categories 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.640 that we're looking around in the in the kids space 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.520 that we're just starting starting to to sort of develop 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.200 UM and we and the and obviously brand still at 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.720 that scale, still play a big piece of it. I 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:08.600 think you know, once or you know, once a week 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.000 or so, there's a there's a branded entertainment piece that 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:16.400 comes out through some really robust partnerships with brand advertisers. UM. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.199 We've also created i P that we're launching on all 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:24.080 these different platforms Snapchat, Instagram, UM and and and the like. 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:28.280 And so at the moment, TV is not a thought. Um, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.800 will it? Will it be at some point in time? 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.440 Possibly Is there a larger show that that requires the 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.160 distribution of the Netflix or or that kind of a 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.480 budget level. Maybe, but only if it makes sense. It's 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.920 certainly not a necessity at the moment, and they're in 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.680 control of their own destiny. So it sounds like the 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.000 brand advertiser though it is still an important spoke in 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.520 all this. And I recall a few years ago having 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:01.120 your colleague, the the shy retiring rezazad Uh describing with 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.959 great candor the difficulties of working with brands in the space, 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.960 you know, the customization that just kind of the wild 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.720 wild west of it all. Has it gotten any better 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.439 in terms of working with brands and bringing them into 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.000 this kind of work. I think it. I think it has. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.320 I think um, I think brands, I mean, look, there's 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.280 a natural maturation that that that that happens, right, Um. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.959 I think you go through all your trials and tribulations, 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.000 both on the agency side on the talent side, there's 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.679 harder brands to work with, there's harder influencers to work with. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.040 I think, so threading that needle sometimes can still be 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.720 still be challenging, but I think that advertisers for the 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.600 most part have understood the value of where uh, you know, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.520 influencers play in their in their chain of activities. I 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:52.400 think that they've learned how to really understand efficacy as 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.280 it relates to the performance of the of the videos 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.520 or the content or the influencer, and they started to 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.280 learn like, look, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.880 There's some really great bespoke, custom branded content out there, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.719 but not everything needs to to be that and to 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.439 go viral on if you want to reach a very 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.240 specific audience, you can very easily say, you know, like 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.880 in podcasting, here's the brand we're powering this piece of content. 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.560 You know, here's your here's your your value as the 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.280 listener or the fan, whether it be a discount or 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.520 this or that ideality, and you can track that. And 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.400 I think you see a lot more performance based marketing 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.200 today than you do general awareness, super custom you know, 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:36.360 branded content which was wrought with all sorts of challenges. Dana, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.360 I want to also talk about the relationship with the platforms, 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.559 which you know, as we've talked about it here, it's 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.480 been sort of a very YouTube centric conversation. But of 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.360 course there's plenty of platforms out there that are seemed 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:56.160 to be actively courting influencers. So again, in terms of 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.480 a contrast from five, ten years ago, how different is 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.319 there in terms of the multiplicity of viable platforms to 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.760 play with. Yeah, um, I think you were in the 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.240 middle or maybe in the beginning of you know, proverbial 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:16.040 arms race for for influencers. UM. I think with with 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:20.840 the you know, exponential growth of TikTok and all the 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:25.880 value that TikTok is providing to creators and influencers, you 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.679 see a lot of the you know, more established platforms 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:31.880 that may have been behind the eight ball in that 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.920 regard starting to try to play catch up. So you've 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:40.080 got TikTok, You've got all the Facebook companies, Instagram, Facebook, etcetera. 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.200 You've got Snapchat, who has really leaned in in recent 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:49.240 years to um supporting and innovating around creators. Um. Twitter 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.000 has come out of the woodwork and started creating a 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:56.920 tool sets and monetization opportunities for for for them. You 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.600 had you had an insurgence of very small, smaller but 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.360 specific platforms like clubhouse or this or that or the 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.720 other thing, and so there's a lot of opportunities to 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.360 build audience and people leaning into developed specifically for creators 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.400 so that they can you know, better monetize their their 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.079 their their wares um. And I think that's reflective in 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.960 how how creators and companies like us are engaging with 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.560 these platforms. And so what does this mean strategically? In 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.640 other words, do you tell your clients, hey, you know, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.240 pick one platform and really focus there, or you know, 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.640 spread yourself as thin as you can across ten different platforms, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.280 or or is it just every client takes a different strategy. Yeah, 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.400 I think it's a little it's a little ladder, right. 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.480 I think it depends on the client and the audience 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.559 that you're trying to reach and where those audiences are. Um, 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.000 I think there are still some differences, right, you know, 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.480 TikTok tends to be a little on the younger side 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.760 versus where Instagram is today versus where you know, Facebook 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.200 proper is, for example. So I think understanding where your 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.000 audiences and playing to your strength is important. But content 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.160 ubiquity in this world and consistency and and and being 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.440 top of mind all the time is super important. Even 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.720 leaning into new platforms like YouTube shorts, for example, which 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.200 came out you know a month or two ago, has 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.760 has given creators a whole new opportunity to grow an audience. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.440 We we had creators that have been operating on YouTube 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.040 and other platforms for you know a year or two years, 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.200 you know, getting thousands of views that have really leaned 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:35.080 into YouTube shorts and overnight seemingly have started to get 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.960 hundreds of millions of views um and so you've got 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.560 to be on top of what what people are responding to, 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.560 where the eyeballs are um and and look, I think 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.600 a lot of different opportunities because there's a war for 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.280 for influencers at the moment, and and and frankly because 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.800 of you know, the new Apple update where where privacy 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.960 is becoming more of an issue and ad targeting is 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.760 going to be more challenging people it have very specific 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.120 audiences that can communicate with them directly are going to 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.760 become more valuable. So so you know, there's an opportunity 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.480 to I don't want to say, play them off of 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.880 each other, but leverage each for their strengths. And really 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.720 the creator is in the driver's seat at the moment, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.240 and you know, I want to get back to TikTok 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.800 because in the scheme of this arms race, it seems 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.560 like TikTok is sort of sucking all the oxygen out 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.640 of the room. Uh, there's just so much attention, so 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.520 much heat. Um. But does that mean you necessarily I mean, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.160 for your say, more family oriented clients, do they not 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.240 necessarily belong on TikTok, which, as you put it, is 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.840 sort of more young skewing. Um. No. I look, I 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.960 think TikTok is really captured, you know, a very large 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:47.920 audience in a very short amount of time. And I 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.040 think there's rooms for room for a lot of things 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.720 and a lot of specific niches. I'll address the families 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.040 in a second, but look at something like, you know, 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.000 the phenomenon going on with book talk right now, um, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.600 which is a very specific niche around around literature. And 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.800 and I think if you search the hashtag book talk, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.800 twelve point six billion views in the last month or 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.080 two have been around that topic. And it is actually 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:19.640 catapulted essentially non existent or dormant you know, books to 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.520 the top of the best seller list. Like how influential 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.240 that is in that world? Um, is sort of incredible. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.560 So and I think you find that you find culinary 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.520 on TikTok, you find uh you know, books and movies 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.760 and and and all sorts of very specific niches are 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.080 emanating from that platform. So I do think it's important 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.240 to be there. It's it is the platform of the moment. 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.400 It's capturing a lot of the zy guys. Our family 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:48.040 channels are there. For example, the Labrandt family, uh, Cole 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.440 and Savannah are some of the largest TikTok creators out there, 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.960 and what they do on TikTok, while it's still family oriented, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.440 is not necessarily what they do on YouTube. I think 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.200 that's an opportunity for Savanna that, for example, but mother 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.359 to be more herself and around her lifestyle and this 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.159 and that. The other thing where is what happens on 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.800 YouTube is much more around the family dynamic, Everley the kid, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:17.600 and things along that along the line. We're gonna take 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.040 a quick break, but will be right back with more 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:31.520 with Dan Weinstein, co founder of Underscore Talent. And we're 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.080 back with Dan Weinstein, co founder Underscore Talent, a longtime 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.399 expert in the influencers space. I'm gonna ask a question 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.720 that it may sound like I'm joking, but maybe I'm 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.199 not which is does a business like yours have to 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.120 be managing a TikTok house? Do you do you need 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.160 to have you know, uh, ten twentysomething's in a mansion 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.200 in bel Air at this point? Or is that optional? 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.240 I think that's optional. I think Look, I think there's 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.959 there's opportunity there. I think some have done well with it, 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.520 and I think others have, you know, sort of not 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.920 done so well to be, to put it nicely, um, 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.719 I think that just the idea of getting people together 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.440 and creating in a house is you know, isn't enough. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.440 I think there needs to be a business raph around 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.159 around that. I think there needs to be adults in 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.320 the room. I mean, I think that, you know, part 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.359 of the reason we started Underscore was that we looked 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.760 around the creator space and like you said at the beginning, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.399 you know, my partners and I have been doing is 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.760 a combine thirty plus years in both traditional and digital. Um, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.640 we saw a lot of disparate representation, a lot of young, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:39.159 inexperienced people, oftentimes a little unsophisticated. Not not everybody, I'm 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.159 not casting versions generally, but there, but there really wasn't 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.480 you know, that sort of preeminent place where people could 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:50.719 go to and feel guided, right and and and safe. Um. 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.800 And I think that was what we were hoping to 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.159 sort of bring to this kind of space that not 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:59.840 only the entrepreneurial spirit that we have and ability to execute, 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:04.560 but but some real guidance and some real you know, representation. Well, 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.359 but on the flip side of that, I gotta wonder 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.120 whether you've got to have a real stomach to be 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.880 in this space. I you know, you read the headlines 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:19.560 about you know, certain influence or misbehaviors, and you know, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.160 also you're working with children, people who you know their 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.320 parents are working with them, and it just seems to 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.359 me like there's so many different ways this could get 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.520 kind of hairry. So how do you deal with all that? Yeah? 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.639 I mean, look, you you've got to be um, you know, 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.560 a guiding principle, you know, guiding point in any one 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.000 of these creators lives, right, you have to make sure 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.760 that they're surrounding themselves with the right people and the 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.800 right teammates. And look, you can't plan for everything, and 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.800 and stuff certainly does happen, and people in this space 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.679 tend to push the envelope a little bit, which has 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.480 its consequences, but I don't think it's that dissimilar from 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:02.000 the traditional space. UM. Today, I think the the platforms, 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.960 and I think that the speed at which news and 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.640 information and all this sort of stuff can can go 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.359 viral and haywire is more substantive. But I think there's 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.440 a there's plenty of sort of celebrities, TV stars, movie 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.919 stars that are capable of the same, you know, anxiety 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:23.560 driven stuff. UM. Fair point, but but yeah, you do. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.280 You have to. You're working generally with a younger audience 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.320 that haven't done this before. They haven't cut their teeth 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.920 for years and years in the hone to craft necessarily, 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.760 and that comes with its own set of challenges. But 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:37.960 I think I like the opportunity though. I think the 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:42.600 opportunity with that white canvas is worth it. But how 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.440 do you know who to work with? Again, in this 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.919 creator economy of tens and tens of millions? You know, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.399 I assume it's not as simple as you're just looking 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.119 for someone who has the highest subscriber count. No, I 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.560 think I think, look there, you know, it's always been 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.119 I think equal arts, you know, art and science. I 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.200 think you've got to have a belief. You've got to 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.199 have a feeling. You've got to look at something and go, 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.000 I like that content. I think there's something here. I 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.760 know why the audiences is engaged with it. Right even 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.200 even way back in the early days with with Fred, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.240 you know, you most people could take a look at 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.480 what he was doing on YouTube, look at it for 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.840 about three seconds and go, oh my god, what is 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.080 this annoying thing? And what am I watching? But you know, 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.840 for those select few of those kids, when you really 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.359 got into that content, there was something there. There was 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.400 a creative storyline. It wasn't just a kid vlogging his life. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.080 He created characters in a world and this this whole thing, 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.800 and and if you could help him amplify that, which 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.479 you know we did. Um, there was a lot of 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.800 opportunity there, a lot of a lot of value. And 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.200 I think it's it's the same you know, I think, look, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.639 they're you're always gonna have your flavor of the month, 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.439 and that's uh, you know, that is what it is. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.639 But trying to find something that that has residents, that 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:01.680 people are engaged with and you can kind of put 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.040 your finger on why people respond to it and that 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.639 it and it can sustain you know, it's a bit 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:08.359 of an art and that's what you tend to look for. 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.919 And not everybody's gonna make it, but you know, I'd 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.840 like our chances to to help cultivate some of the 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.440 next generation, you know, biggest celebrities out there. Well, I'm 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.880 sure when you're pitching the clients, you're you're showing them 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:24.040 the track record that you've racked up and and your 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.080 partners have racked up. I do want to talk about 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.360 you know, you've got this new venture in place, but 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.639 this goes back. Now. I've been talking to you for 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:38.080 for over a decade when the Collective was the name 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.720 of the company, and you had come out of the Firm, 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:45.000