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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in

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Speaker 1: which we talked with some of the brightest minds working

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Speaker 1: in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety.

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Speaker 1: There may be an estimated fifty million people active in

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Speaker 1: the so called creator economy, but only a fraction of

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Speaker 1: them are making the truly big bucks. And that's where

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Speaker 1: my next guest comes in. Dan Weinstein has been representing

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Speaker 1: some of the influencers with the largest audiences for over

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Speaker 1: a decade, even before everyone started calling them influencers. Now

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Speaker 1: he's doing it again as part of a new management firm,

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Speaker 1: Underscore Talent, which gives us a good opportunity to see

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Speaker 1: how this rapidly evolving business continues to change. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Strictly Business with Dan Weinstein, co founder of Underscore Talent,

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Speaker 1: which represents some pretty big names in the influencer world.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've heard of the kid duo of Lad and

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Speaker 1: Nikki here in the top ten among total subscribers by

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Speaker 1: some counts, or the Royalty family or the Labrand family.

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Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, Dan, you've been active in this space

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Speaker 1: for a long time, so tell me what is it

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Speaker 1: about this business that you've stuck with all this time,

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Speaker 1: is the opportunity here bigger than it's ever been? And

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Speaker 1: why yes, thanks Andy, and I you know, even more

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Speaker 1: so than I think around you know, five or six

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Speaker 1: years ago. The opportunity for creators to build meaningful businesses

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Speaker 1: and be sort of entrepreneurial is exponential to where it was.

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Speaker 1: You look at, you know, somewhere like three or four

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Speaker 1: years ago, when the top creators in the space maybe

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Speaker 1: five years ago, you know, we're lucky if they were

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Speaker 1: earning a million dollars a year, two million dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: That was the top half of one percent, and it

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Speaker 1: was generally driven by brands. Now you've got the top

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Speaker 1: half of that same one percent earning twenty thirty forty

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Speaker 1: million dollars in building companies that you know, I think

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Speaker 1: arguably could be the next unicorns in the in the

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Speaker 1: coming you know, coming decade. And that's just a really

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Speaker 1: exciting place to be. And you know, I love being

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Speaker 1: sort of a very disruptive um, you know industry. So

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Speaker 1: what changed here? Because I remember those days where it

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Speaker 1: was all about, you know, get the brand deal and

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Speaker 1: you know the rest is gravy, and now it seems

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Speaker 1: like it's the gravy where the money is made. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so it's interesting, I think, um, you know, a

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Speaker 1: while ago, it was the thesis around the whole company,

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Speaker 1: even started two thousand seven, was that access to an

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Speaker 1: audience was going to drive meaningful value. Right. It was disintermediation.

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Speaker 1: You could circumvent the gatekeepers, go direct to your audience,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the heavens will open up and money

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Speaker 1: will write down upon you. Um. And I think some

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Speaker 1: of that was true, right, And a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: again was was driven by advertising. But the technology, the

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Speaker 1: plat forms, the companies that have been built even in

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Speaker 1: the last two years to further strengthen that relationship with

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Speaker 1: an audience and provide a low barrier entry to monetize

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Speaker 1: that audience in myriad ways has allowed creators that that

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Speaker 1: aren't even in that top half of one percent to

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Speaker 1: build sustainable and real businesses. You know, I call it

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Speaker 1: sort of that middle class of creators are now able

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Speaker 1: to leverage their audience, price people's passion or fandom in

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Speaker 1: meaningful ways provide whether it's exclusivity or content or memberships

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Speaker 1: or all these other things that are coming about to

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Speaker 1: drive real revenue and and and brands and advertising is

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Speaker 1: becoming less and less of an important piece. When I

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Speaker 1: would first talk to you about this back in in

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Speaker 1: two thousand seven, when you were dealing with names like

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Speaker 1: and I wonder, who's going to remember the likes of

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Speaker 1: Annoying Orange. Um, you know Lucas, Uh, what is this

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Speaker 1: Lucas cruchank right? And back then it was I remember

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Speaker 1: you telling me it was all about you get your

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Speaker 1: start on the platform, but then you've got to graduate that.

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Speaker 1: I pe so that you know, Lucas gets his TV show,

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Speaker 1: Annoying Orange gets his movie, and you guys you were

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Speaker 1: great at that. Um did some real pioneering work there. Um.

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Speaker 1: Is that no longer the case because that's you know,

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Speaker 1: my from my Hollywood vantage point. Uh, that was the

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Speaker 1: be all and end all ten years ago. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: I that's definitely not the case anymore. Um. And and

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Speaker 1: I think back then, you know, we we made we

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Speaker 1: were still innovative in the way that we made these movies. Right.

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Speaker 1: We leveraged our access to the audience. We put in

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Speaker 1: our own capital to drive a better economic outcome, which

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Speaker 1: I think was really interesting at the time. But the

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Speaker 1: goal was get on TV, get in movies. Seldom music

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Speaker 1: do do the traditional sort of Hollywood thing. Um now,

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Speaker 1: I think you know it's almost TV and film are

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Speaker 1: still important, but it's one spoke of that wheel right

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Speaker 1: and it and it has to be under the right

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Speaker 1: set of circumstances. In terms take a property like like

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Speaker 1: uh good Mythical Morning with the Mythical Entertainment Crew. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: I would have said, that is a late night TV show.

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Speaker 1: We need to go to MTV or NBC or one

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Speaker 1: of these places and and sell this into into late night.

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Speaker 1: We'll drive the audience, it will be it'll be great.

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Speaker 1: That's gonna be the win. And the reality is today

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Speaker 1: when you look at it, britten Link would say, well,

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Speaker 1: why would we do that? We own the show, we

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Speaker 1: are super profitable, we have a media company that has

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Speaker 1: eighty year ninety executives in it. We've built products around it,

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Speaker 1: We've built other vehicles and other talent around it. This

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Speaker 1: is the asset that we're going to continue to sort

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Speaker 1: of build. Why would we let MTV own that that

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Speaker 1: asset for a much less economic upside? And I think

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a lot of that today. I think it's gone.

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Speaker 1: There are definitely people you know and creators that want

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Speaker 1: to be in movies and television and where that will

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Speaker 1: drive real value, But it's certainly not the only opportunity, um,

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Speaker 1: and it has to be a part of the right

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Speaker 1: sort of overall strategy. What you're saying actually reminds me

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Speaker 1: of another former client of yours, Lily Singh, who I think,

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Speaker 1: after you represented her, went on to late night TV

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Speaker 1: at NBC for I think just a few years. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know that that was necessarily a successful experiment.

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Speaker 1: Not not that anyone's worried about her. I think I

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Speaker 1: think she's gonna do just fine. Yeah, I think I think, Look,

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Speaker 1: Lily is an incredibly talented creative and she'll be and

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Speaker 1: she'll be you know, great and whatever she sort of does.

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Speaker 1: I think it was an interesting experiment. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think part of the thesis was that can you know,

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Speaker 1: can she drive her audience to you know, television, And

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Speaker 1: I think the reality is is that, you know, primarily

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Speaker 1: her audience is not going to stay up and watch

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Speaker 1: you know, late night television at two in the morning

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Speaker 1: on on NBC, and and the format was not what

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Speaker 1: was sort of, um the crux of what drew that

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Speaker 1: audience to her in the first place, and so it

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Speaker 1: was kind of trying to bring the Internet to television

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't separate, and I just think it wasn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, a bit of a failed experiment. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there were a lot of reasons why, including NBC

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Speaker 1: and and you know, in Lily's camp, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't. I don't think was was the

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Speaker 1: home run that it was anticipating. So influencers don't need

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Speaker 1: Hollywood anymore. Give me, as a point of contrast, walk

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Speaker 1: me through an existing client of yours and the spokes

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Speaker 1: of the wheel and the many ways they're making money,

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Speaker 1: which I would assume are is very heavy on, you know,

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Speaker 1: merchandise licensing. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways. So so we'll take the Royalty Family by example. Right,

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Speaker 1: So they've got you know, north of twelve or thirteen

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Speaker 1: million subscribers on YouTube. They produced content, you know, on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis. They generate a tremendous amount of revenue

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Speaker 1: passively from advertising on on YouTube, the ad sense revenue. Right.

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Speaker 1: We then also have partnered with them to take their

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Speaker 1: content into other other platforms that are also monetizing, like Facebook,

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Speaker 1: like Snapchat, where we're sort of repurposing their their sort

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Speaker 1: of really robust library of content and and driving incremental

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Speaker 1: and passive and recurring revenue from other platforms. We also

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Speaker 1: sort of partnered with them on their will call it merchandise,

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Speaker 1: but I think it goes beyond that. It's it's less

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Speaker 1: hats and t shirts. UM. You know, the mother of

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Speaker 1: the mom of the group is very into fitness, and

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Speaker 1: we started sort of in a very bespoke way to

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Speaker 1: create a line of at leisure where that we're in

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Speaker 1: the middle of developing. We think that's going to be

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Speaker 1: hugely successful. There's a couple of other consumer product categories

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Speaker 1: that we're looking around in the in the kids space

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Speaker 1: that we're just starting starting to to sort of develop

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Speaker 1: UM and we and the and obviously brand still at

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Speaker 1: that scale, still play a big piece of it. I

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Speaker 1: think you know, once or you know, once a week

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Speaker 1: or so, there's a there's a branded entertainment piece that

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Speaker 1: comes out through some really robust partnerships with brand advertisers. UM.

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Speaker 1: We've also created i P that we're launching on all

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Speaker 1: these different platforms Snapchat, Instagram, UM and and and the like.

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Speaker 1: And so at the moment, TV is not a thought. Um,

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Speaker 1: will it? Will it be at some point in time?

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Speaker 1: Possibly Is there a larger show that that requires the

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Speaker 1: distribution of the Netflix or or that kind of a

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Speaker 1: budget level. Maybe, but only if it makes sense. It's

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Speaker 1: certainly not a necessity at the moment, and they're in

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Speaker 1: control of their own destiny. So it sounds like the

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Speaker 1: brand advertiser though it is still an important spoke in

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Speaker 1: all this. And I recall a few years ago having

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Speaker 1: your colleague, the the shy retiring rezazad Uh describing with

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Speaker 1: great candor the difficulties of working with brands in the space,

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Speaker 1: you know, the customization that just kind of the wild

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Speaker 1: wild west of it all. Has it gotten any better

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Speaker 1: in terms of working with brands and bringing them into

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Speaker 1: this kind of work. I think it. I think it has.

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Speaker 1: I think um, I think brands, I mean, look, there's

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Speaker 1: a natural maturation that that that that happens, right, Um.

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Speaker 1: I think you go through all your trials and tribulations,

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Speaker 1: both on the agency side on the talent side, there's

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Speaker 1: harder brands to work with, there's harder influencers to work with.

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Speaker 1: I think, so threading that needle sometimes can still be

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Speaker 1: still be challenging, but I think that advertisers for the

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Speaker 1: most part have understood the value of where uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: influencers play in their in their chain of activities. I

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Speaker 1: think that they've learned how to really understand efficacy as

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Speaker 1: it relates to the performance of the of the videos

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Speaker 1: or the content or the influencer, and they started to

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Speaker 1: learn like, look, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.

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Speaker 1: There's some really great bespoke, custom branded content out there,

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Speaker 1: but not everything needs to to be that and to

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Speaker 1: go viral on if you want to reach a very

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Speaker 1: specific audience, you can very easily say, you know, like

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Speaker 1: in podcasting, here's the brand we're powering this piece of content.

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Speaker 1: You know, here's your here's your your value as the

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Speaker 1: listener or the fan, whether it be a discount or

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Speaker 1: this or that ideality, and you can track that. And

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Speaker 1: I think you see a lot more performance based marketing

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Speaker 1: today than you do general awareness, super custom you know,

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Speaker 1: branded content which was wrought with all sorts of challenges. Dana,

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Speaker 1: I want to also talk about the relationship with the platforms,

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Speaker 1: which you know, as we've talked about it here, it's

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Speaker 1: been sort of a very YouTube centric conversation. But of

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Speaker 1: course there's plenty of platforms out there that are seemed

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Speaker 1: to be actively courting influencers. So again, in terms of

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Speaker 1: a contrast from five, ten years ago, how different is

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Speaker 1: there in terms of the multiplicity of viable platforms to

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Speaker 1: play with. Yeah, um, I think you were in the

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Speaker 1: middle or maybe in the beginning of you know, proverbial

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Speaker 1: arms race for for influencers. UM. I think with with

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Speaker 1: the you know, exponential growth of TikTok and all the

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Speaker 1: value that TikTok is providing to creators and influencers, you

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Speaker 1: see a lot of the you know, more established platforms

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Speaker 1: that may have been behind the eight ball in that

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Speaker 1: regard starting to try to play catch up. So you've

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Speaker 1: got TikTok, You've got all the Facebook companies, Instagram, Facebook, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: You've got Snapchat, who has really leaned in in recent

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Speaker 1: years to um supporting and innovating around creators. Um. Twitter

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Speaker 1: has come out of the woodwork and started creating a

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Speaker 1: tool sets and monetization opportunities for for for them. You

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Speaker 1: had you had an insurgence of very small, smaller but

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Speaker 1: specific platforms like clubhouse or this or that or the

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Speaker 1: other thing, and so there's a lot of opportunities to

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Speaker 1: build audience and people leaning into developed specifically for creators

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Speaker 1: so that they can you know, better monetize their their

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Speaker 1: their their wares um. And I think that's reflective in

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Speaker 1: how how creators and companies like us are engaging with

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Speaker 1: these platforms. And so what does this mean strategically? In

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Speaker 1: other words, do you tell your clients, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: pick one platform and really focus there, or you know,

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Speaker 1: spread yourself as thin as you can across ten different platforms,

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Speaker 1: or or is it just every client takes a different strategy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a little it's a little ladder, right.

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Speaker 1: I think it depends on the client and the audience

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Speaker 1: that you're trying to reach and where those audiences are. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think there are still some differences, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: TikTok tends to be a little on the younger side

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Speaker 1: versus where Instagram is today versus where you know, Facebook

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Speaker 1: proper is, for example. So I think understanding where your

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Speaker 1: audiences and playing to your strength is important. But content

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Speaker 1: ubiquity in this world and consistency and and and being

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Speaker 1: top of mind all the time is super important. Even

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Speaker 1: leaning into new platforms like YouTube shorts, for example, which

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Speaker 1: came out you know a month or two ago, has

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Speaker 1: has given creators a whole new opportunity to grow an audience.

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Speaker 1: We we had creators that have been operating on YouTube

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Speaker 1: and other platforms for you know a year or two years,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting thousands of views that have really leaned

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Speaker 1: into YouTube shorts and overnight seemingly have started to get

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of views um and so you've got

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Speaker 1: to be on top of what what people are responding to,

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Speaker 1: where the eyeballs are um and and look, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of different opportunities because there's a war for

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Speaker 1: for influencers at the moment, and and and frankly because

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Speaker 1: of you know, the new Apple update where where privacy

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Speaker 1: is becoming more of an issue and ad targeting is

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Speaker 1: going to be more challenging people it have very specific

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Speaker 1: audiences that can communicate with them directly are going to

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Speaker 1: become more valuable. So so you know, there's an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to I don't want to say, play them off of

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Speaker 1: each other, but leverage each for their strengths. And really

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Speaker 1: the creator is in the driver's seat at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I want to get back to TikTok

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Speaker 1: because in the scheme of this arms race, it seems

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Speaker 1: like TikTok is sort of sucking all the oxygen out

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Speaker 1: of the room. Uh, there's just so much attention, so

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Speaker 1: much heat. Um. But does that mean you necessarily I mean,

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Speaker 1: for your say, more family oriented clients, do they not

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Speaker 1: necessarily belong on TikTok, which, as you put it, is

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Speaker 1: sort of more young skewing. Um. No. I look, I

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Speaker 1: think TikTok is really captured, you know, a very large

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Speaker 1: audience in a very short amount of time. And I

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Speaker 1: think there's rooms for room for a lot of things

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Speaker 1: and a lot of specific niches. I'll address the families

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Speaker 1: in a second, but look at something like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon going on with book talk right now, um,

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Speaker 1: which is a very specific niche around around literature. And

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Speaker 1: and I think if you search the hashtag book talk,

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Speaker 1: twelve point six billion views in the last month or

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Speaker 1: two have been around that topic. And it is actually

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Speaker 1: catapulted essentially non existent or dormant you know, books to

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Speaker 1: the top of the best seller list. Like how influential

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Speaker 1: that is in that world? Um, is sort of incredible.

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Speaker 1: So and I think you find that you find culinary

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Speaker 1: on TikTok, you find uh you know, books and movies

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Speaker 1: and and and all sorts of very specific niches are

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Speaker 1: emanating from that platform. So I do think it's important

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Speaker 1: to be there. It's it is the platform of the moment.

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Speaker 1: It's capturing a lot of the zy guys. Our family

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Speaker 1: channels are there. For example, the Labrandt family, uh, Cole

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Speaker 1: and Savannah are some of the largest TikTok creators out there,

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Speaker 1: and what they do on TikTok, while it's still family oriented,

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily what they do on YouTube. I think

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Speaker 1: that's an opportunity for Savanna that, for example, but mother

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Speaker 1: to be more herself and around her lifestyle and this

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Speaker 1: and that. The other thing where is what happens on

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Speaker 1: YouTube is much more around the family dynamic, Everley the kid,

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Speaker 1: and things along that along the line. We're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, but will be right back with more

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Speaker 1: with Dan Weinstein, co founder of Underscore Talent. And we're

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Speaker 1: back with Dan Weinstein, co founder Underscore Talent, a longtime

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Speaker 1: expert in the influencers space. I'm gonna ask a question

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Speaker 1: that it may sound like I'm joking, but maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: not which is does a business like yours have to

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Speaker 1: be managing a TikTok house? Do you do you need

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Speaker 1: to have you know, uh, ten twentysomething's in a mansion

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Speaker 1: in bel Air at this point? Or is that optional?

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Speaker 1: I think that's optional. I think Look, I think there's

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Speaker 1: there's opportunity there. I think some have done well with it,

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Speaker 1: and I think others have, you know, sort of not

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Speaker 1: done so well to be, to put it nicely, um,

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Speaker 1: I think that just the idea of getting people together

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Speaker 1: and creating in a house is you know, isn't enough.

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Speaker 1: I think there needs to be a business raph around

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Speaker 1: around that. I think there needs to be adults in

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Speaker 1: the room. I mean, I think that, you know, part

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Speaker 1: of the reason we started Underscore was that we looked

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Speaker 1: around the creator space and like you said at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: you know, my partners and I have been doing is

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Speaker 1: a combine thirty plus years in both traditional and digital. Um,

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Speaker 1: we saw a lot of disparate representation, a lot of young,

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Speaker 1: inexperienced people, oftentimes a little unsophisticated. Not not everybody, I'm

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Speaker 1: not casting versions generally, but there, but there really wasn't

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Speaker 1: you know, that sort of preeminent place where people could

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Speaker 1: go to and feel guided, right and and and safe. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that was what we were hoping to

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Speaker 1: sort of bring to this kind of space that not

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Speaker 1: only the entrepreneurial spirit that we have and ability to execute,

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Speaker 1: but but some real guidance and some real you know, representation. Well,

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Speaker 1: but on the flip side of that, I gotta wonder

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Speaker 1: whether you've got to have a real stomach to be

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Speaker 1: in this space. I you know, you read the headlines

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Speaker 1: about you know, certain influence or misbehaviors, and you know,

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Speaker 1: also you're working with children, people who you know their

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Speaker 1: parents are working with them, and it just seems to

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Speaker 1: me like there's so many different ways this could get

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Speaker 1: kind of hairry. So how do you deal with all that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, you you've got to be um, you know,

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Speaker 1: a guiding principle, you know, guiding point in any one

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Speaker 1: of these creators lives, right, you have to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they're surrounding themselves with the right people and the

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Speaker 1: right teammates. And look, you can't plan for everything, and

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Speaker 1: and stuff certainly does happen, and people in this space

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Speaker 1: tend to push the envelope a little bit, which has

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Speaker 1: its consequences, but I don't think it's that dissimilar from

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Speaker 1: the traditional space. UM. Today, I think the the platforms,

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Speaker 1: and I think that the speed at which news and

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Speaker 1: information and all this sort of stuff can can go

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Speaker 1: viral and haywire is more substantive. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: a there's plenty of sort of celebrities, TV stars, movie

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Speaker 1: stars that are capable of the same, you know, anxiety

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Speaker 1: driven stuff. UM. Fair point, but but yeah, you do.

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Speaker 1: You have to. You're working generally with a younger audience

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Speaker 1: that haven't done this before. They haven't cut their teeth

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Speaker 1: for years and years in the hone to craft necessarily,

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Speaker 1: and that comes with its own set of challenges. But

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Speaker 1: I think I like the opportunity though. I think the

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Speaker 1: opportunity with that white canvas is worth it. But how

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Speaker 1: do you know who to work with? Again, in this

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Speaker 1: creator economy of tens and tens of millions? You know,

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Speaker 1: I assume it's not as simple as you're just looking

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Speaker 1: for someone who has the highest subscriber count. No, I

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Speaker 1: think I think, look there, you know, it's always been

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Speaker 1: I think equal arts, you know, art and science. I

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Speaker 1: think you've got to have a belief. You've got to

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Speaker 1: have a feeling. You've got to look at something and go,

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Speaker 1: I like that content. I think there's something here. I

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Speaker 1: know why the audiences is engaged with it. Right even

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Speaker 1: even way back in the early days with with Fred,

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Speaker 1: you know, you most people could take a look at

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Speaker 1: what he was doing on YouTube, look at it for

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Speaker 1: about three seconds and go, oh my god, what is

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Speaker 1: this annoying thing? And what am I watching? But you know,

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Speaker 1: for those select few of those kids, when you really

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Speaker 1: got into that content, there was something there. There was

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Speaker 1: a creative storyline. It wasn't just a kid vlogging his life.

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Speaker 1: He created characters in a world and this this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and and if you could help him amplify that, which

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Speaker 1: you know we did. Um, there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: opportunity there, a lot of a lot of value. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's the same you know, I think, look,

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Speaker 1: they're you're always gonna have your flavor of the month,

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Speaker 1: and that's uh, you know, that is what it is.

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Speaker 1: But trying to find something that that has residents, that

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Speaker 1: people are engaged with and you can kind of put

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Speaker 1: your finger on why people respond to it and that

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Speaker 1: it and it can sustain you know, it's a bit

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Speaker 1: of an art and that's what you tend to look for.

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Speaker 1: And not everybody's gonna make it, but you know, I'd

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Speaker 1: like our chances to to help cultivate some of the

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Speaker 1: next generation, you know, biggest celebrities out there. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure when you're pitching the clients, you're you're showing them

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Speaker 1: the track record that you've racked up and and your

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Speaker 1: partners have racked up. I do want to talk about

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got this new venture in place, but

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Speaker 1: this goes back. Now. I've been talking to you for

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Speaker 1: for over a decade when the Collective was the name

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Speaker 1: of the company, and you had come out of the Firm,

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Speaker 1: which was sort of a big classic Hollywood management company,

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Speaker 1: and then the Collective in turn was was brought up

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Speaker 1: by Studio seventy one, And I just kinda want to

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Speaker 1: understand what happened to the last iteration of the company

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Speaker 1: that you had with res azad and and Michael Green.

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Speaker 1: Why are we sort of at this new place. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so it's interesting we sort of we sort

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Speaker 1: of did a full one eight. I mean, the Collective

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Speaker 1: back in the day was sort of a pure play

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Speaker 1: management business, although with a different thesis that I sort

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Speaker 1: of mentioned earlier, which is that and this is two

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Speaker 1: thousand six, mind you, which was that technology was going

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Speaker 1: to enable artists to go direct to their consumers and

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Speaker 1: and be able to extract value from that relationship directly.

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Speaker 1: And we didn't know how that was going to play out,

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Speaker 1: but if we could help artists aggregate audience communicate with them,

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Speaker 1: that we would be in a position to ultimately partner

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Speaker 1: with them potentially on their on their endeavors UM and

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Speaker 1: it would be a win win for everybody UM and

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially putting the economic power back in the

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Speaker 1: artists hands versus the distributor or whatever whatever that third

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Speaker 1: party was UM. And we did that really successfully for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and as we scaled, where the opportunity

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Speaker 1: had led us was to sort of becoming more of

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Speaker 1: a scaled publisher of content UM. And I think the

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Speaker 1: Collective and its iterations over the last ten years, going

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00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: from collective to collect the Digital Studio, which was really

428
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: a management focused company too when it really became Studio

429
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,959
Speaker 1: sev one was was was just driven by the opportunity

430
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: in the marketplace. I think YouTube would come to us

431
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: and said we need help, uh working with this creator class. UM.

432
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: We needed to start to build and provide services for

433
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: these creators. We needed to build a sales organization, we

434
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: needed to build a distribution apparatus in order to drive that.

435
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: That value and scale was really important to being you

436
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: know effective, you know in that space and at that time, UM.

437
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: The downside of that UM was that that we really

438
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: sort of over the years migrated away from being a

439
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: pure played management business and fiduciary to talent and being

440
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: more of a a service provider and a and a

441
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: media player. We were essentially one of the largest social

442
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: video distributors you know out there, UM and and it

443
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: was hard to serve both you know, both bosses, I

444
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: guess right, on the one side advertising which drove the business,

445
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: and on the other side of the talent UM. And

446
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 1: so last year residentis obligation to the to the company

447
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: had come come up and we had we had gotten

448
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: into where we you know, wanted to get it. We're

449
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: very proud of it. We left it in good hands

450
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: and it's still a very good company. But in our

451
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: d n A resident I have always been talent people

452
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: UM to going back to U t A even before

453
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: the collective and again going back to sort of what

454
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: we were discussing about the opportunity for creators today being better,

455
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: you know, much more significant than it was, you know

456
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. We thought pivoting back towards

457
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: our roots and being real UH managers again and representatives,

458
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: UM was was a really interesting opportunity that we couldn't

459
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: pass up. So you've gone back to the roots. And

460
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm curious what the dynamic is like because you well,

461
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: I was gonna say search for clients, but maybe the

462
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: clients are searching for you. Or is it the kind

463
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: of thing where you're like looking for needles in a

464
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: haystack or is this really just a stack of needles,

465
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: because you know, there's lots of people with millions of followers. Yeah,

466
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's a there's a lot of needles

467
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: out there for sure, UM, And I think it's both. Look.

468
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: I think in a very short amount of time, we've

469
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: got about uh we're zeroing in and out thirty on

470
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: the team UM. Having just launched in January, We've got

471
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: a very solid list of clients that are at the

472
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: top of their platforms, and you know, across all the

473
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: different platforms from TikTok to YouTube, etcetera. Um, we've we've

474
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: started to execute and I think we've gotten some some

475
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: some good notoriety and press around some of our executions.

476
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: And so we're we're getting incoming opportunities. We're looking for

477
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,479
Speaker 1: other opportunities. I think our our our past history, our

478
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: reputation is certainly helpful in in navigating this this world. Um,

479
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: but we're not building an m C. And again we're not.

480
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 1: We're not we're not looking for thousands of clients. We're not.

481
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: We're not just a pure place scale thing, and we're

482
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: not just throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks.

483
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: We're really focused on trying to cultivate the right talent,

484
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: you know, doing the right thing, and and and doing

485
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: it in a space where we know that we can

486
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: add value and we can help them build real enterprise

487
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: value around what it is that that they're doing. Just Um, yeah,

488
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: you just mentioned mc N, which was of course the

489
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: multi channel network business model that in the early days

490
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: of online video platforms is a big deal. Um, here's

491
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: another acronym to throw at you that I'm curious figures

492
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: into your business. And f T S I would imagine

493
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: that could be a place where your clients will apply. Yes,

494
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: I you know, to be honest, I'm still trying to

495
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: wrap my head around. And look, I think the underlying technology,

496
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: the blockchain, smart contract, that whole thing is going to

497
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: be here to stay. It's super valued. It's got a

498
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of applications. I think some of this stuff

499
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: has just been um hyper inflated and and and and

500
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: hasn't really worked the way that it's supposed to work.

501
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: I don't think it's right for every application, but I

502
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: do think that there's gonna be some real, real value

503
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: there um in particular around a specific you know, sort

504
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: of audience demographic. And I actually think of it, you know,

505
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: because I remember back in the day when we were

506
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: representing Lincoln Park and starting to build out their their

507
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: fan club from from a very sort of you know,

508
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: bespoke standpoint on websites and etcetera. The n f T

509
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: has tremendous implication in the music business in particular and

510
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: around what I think are our fan clubs. Right, how

511
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: do how do you create exclusive experiences exclusive value where

512
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: the wold the value of the token or whatever it is,

513
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: can can actually live on and and and be sold.

514
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: And it's not sort of a one off um sort

515
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: of novelty. I think it's kind of where I I

516
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: want to play. And we're sort of steering our clients

517
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: first is hey, let's partner with an artist and just

518
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: see what we can sell um and and you know,

519
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: so that we're trying to figure that we've got a

520
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: couple of irons in the fire. Um and and in particular,

521
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: I do like a company like you know, rally Io,

522
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: which is much more around social tokens and you know,

523
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: versus the actual n F T s UM. But there's

524
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: a there's a lot more to learn, and it's an

525
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: exciting space to play for sure. And by the way,

526
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned you know, established talent like Lincoln Park and

527
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: you guys have represented another established talent many years ago,

528
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: Kanye Prince, Martin Lawrence. Is there any piece of this

529
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: new business that could be playing in the so called

530
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, established talent space. Yeah, I think that. You know,

531
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: when when we started the company, our our thesis was

532
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: we want to work with any talent that has the

533
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: ability to cultivate and communicate directly with an audience at

534
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: some level of meaningful scale. And I think we're agnostic too.

535
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: Are they a quote unquote digitally native or or sort

536
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: of emanate out of the TV, film or celebrity space.

537
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: And so I think we absolutely wanna Look if I

538
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: could be representing the Kardashians, for example, that would be

539
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: a home run it were uniquely situated to to help

540
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: them execute in this world. Um and and that would

541
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: be that would be an interesting opportunity. We already have

542
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: some crossover talent, you know, again I'm using air quotes

543
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: that you can't see, but um and you know like

544
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: Twitch and Alison Boss who you know, Twitch was the

545
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: co host of The Ellen Show and so you think

546
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: you can dance. And I would say they're like they're

547
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: equal parts, you know, traditional celebrity TV host kind of

548
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: talent as well as um digital influencers. Right, they have

549
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: huge followings, they're creating content consistently on their own, They're

550
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: working a tremendous amount with brands and advertisers, and there's

551
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity there, and I think we want

552
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: to get much more heavy in that in that space.

553
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: You know, I can't believe we've gone this far into

554
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 1: the conversation without touching on what must be the number

555
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: one in fluenz Er monetization tool boxing. When when are

556
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: your child clients canna be lacing it up for you know,

557
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: prime time about a note pay per view? Yeah, children boxing,

558
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: that's gonna be the next one. I read that Tante

559
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: Mojo is gonna start boxing now too. Um. I mean, look,

560
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's interesting, it's it's you know, you

561
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: can we can kinda laugh about it. But it goes

562
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: back to if you have an audience and you have

563
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: a vehicle to create something unique and monetize it, that

564
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: there's there's real value there. I mean, I you know,

565
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you know, am I a fan

566
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: of their content and their persona, you know, referencing you know,

567
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: the Paul Brothers. Not necessarily, um am. I hugely impressed

568
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: with what they've been able to do and how they've

569
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: been able to do it, and they're they're sort of

570
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: business acumen and and and all that sort of stuff. Hugely.

571
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: It's really really incredible what he was able to accomplish,

572
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, in particular with the Floyd Mayweather stuff. Um.

573
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: And I think some people are going to do it

574
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: better than others, and someone will be a joke and

575
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: they you know, tried and whipped and some will be

576
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: a grand slam well, from boxing to book talk. That's

577
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: why I love following this space. Very unpredictable, very interesting.

578
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: That's why I always like talking to you because you've

579
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: been on top of this space long before it was

580
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: cool and so happy to take the time to talk

581
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: to you today. Appreciate you sharing your insights. Thanks again.

582
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: This has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in

583
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: next week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media

584
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: movers and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to

585
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review

586
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: in Apple Podcasts and let us know how we're doing.