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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: So, doctor Dan Freeman, co author of a couple of

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Speaker 2: books on Jack the Ripper as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Speaker 2: or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as Jack the Ripper. The

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Speaker 2: new one will be coming out this fall, and of

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Speaker 2: all goes as planned, you'll see a little blurb on

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Speaker 2: the back there Doyle's World Lost and Found. The Unknown

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Speaker 2: Histories are Sherlock Combs and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. So

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Speaker 2: if I were to ask you, though, Dan, if I

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Speaker 2: could again, I mean, you mentioned the Robert Louis Stevenson thing.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned some pieces that it seems like Sir Arthur

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Speaker 2: Conan Doyle gave to other people to publish under their names.

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Speaker 2: How do you make that determination?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 3: I actually what I will do. I will go through

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Speaker 3: a Shilla Comb's tale and I will analyze the language,

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Speaker 3: and I will look for clues in there that don't

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Speaker 3: seem to match the storyline, or see if there's something

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Speaker 3: out of place and I don't take that one piece

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Speaker 3: of information, and I will investigate where it was really

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Speaker 3: coming from, what it was really meant to mean, and

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Speaker 3: in one of the stories, it was just that I

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Speaker 3: am your neighbor, and that line, I am your neighbor

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Speaker 3: just comes out of nowhere, and it was the clue

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Speaker 3: I needed to figure out exactly who this entire story

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Speaker 3: was dedicated to. And it's actually one of the most

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Speaker 3: famous ones. It's the one that resurrected Sholo comes out

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Speaker 3: of the graves. In other words, there was the Hound

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Speaker 3: of the Basketballs that that took Holmes back before he

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Speaker 3: was he fell off Rick and back balls, and the

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Speaker 3: Venture of the Empty House where he says, I've been

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Speaker 3: away in Tibet, and I went to Florence, and I

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Speaker 3: went to France, and I stopped in on Mecca. And

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Speaker 3: there was just one word in that story, I am

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Speaker 3: your neighbor, that made me look to see what that meant.

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Speaker 3: Who was his neighbor, found out who the neighbor was,

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Speaker 3: and everything about that neighbor fit the entire story.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, tell me more specifically about what you mean

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Speaker 2: by that then.

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Speaker 3: So in other words, so he had a neighbor named

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Speaker 3: Grant Allen. He was a very famous writer at the time.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of like the Isaac Asimov of our time.

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Speaker 3: He like wrote genre possible, like science fiction, but then history,

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Speaker 3: then religion, biology, so and Doyle was asked right before this,

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Speaker 3: before Grant Allen died, he said, you're my neighbor. We

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Speaker 3: know each other for years now. You moved here because

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Speaker 3: of me. I told you to move to this area

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Speaker 3: for your wife's health, and you did. Could give me

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Speaker 3: a favorite just finished the end of my story for me.

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Speaker 3: I can't do it. And Doyle of course said, sure,

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Speaker 3: you do your story for you. Where are we up to.

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Speaker 3: We're in mystic Tibet and we're going to be meeting

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Speaker 3: with the Dolly Lama. So of course Doyle stores up

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Speaker 3: the story and he starts writing about, you know, the

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Speaker 3: Dolly Lama and the adventures that we're going to happen

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Speaker 3: after this. So if you take this part of the

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Speaker 3: I am your neighbor of being Grant Allen, and you

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Speaker 3: look and see what happens in the rest of the

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Speaker 3: empty house. We start off in Tibet, Holmes tells you

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Speaker 3: I went to Tibet and that with the Dali Lama,

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Speaker 3: and then I went to Florence. And in Florence is

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Speaker 3: actually a book that Grant Allen wrote because he also

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Speaker 3: wrote about travel guides and one of the most famous

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Speaker 3: travel guys is Florence. I'm actually holding it in my hand. Actually,

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Speaker 3: it's beautiful. I can't show you because we're not doing it.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, but.

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Speaker 3: All the things in that story are based upon Grant Allen,

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Speaker 3: like where the where homes went to, where he went to,

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Speaker 3: the name of the Murderers are I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 3: all dedicated to Grant Allen, secretly, never acknowledged, and no

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Speaker 3: one's ever figured this out before. That's one of the

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Speaker 3: stories that we're going to be doing. And we're also

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Speaker 3: going to be doing another, the second home story, the

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Speaker 3: Sign of the Four, which is one of the most

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Speaker 3: famous of his novels, probably one of my favorite stories

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Speaker 3: of all time. But in that one, we learn about

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Speaker 3: this guy with one leg named Jonathan Small and how

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Speaker 3: he has all these adventures. And but when you look

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Speaker 3: at the story and you analyze it, it is the

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Speaker 3: story of Treasure Island being told in reverse. Basically, you're

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Speaker 3: going to be doing a sea story that becomes a

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Speaker 3: land story that goes back to her sea story, to

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Speaker 3: the episode of Tradu Roland. And you know, we have

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Speaker 3: our character in Doyle story is Jonathan small. But in

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Speaker 3: traju Roland, we have Long John Silver, so we have

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Speaker 3: a long versus a small and we have John as

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Speaker 3: the same first name, so both characters, so the character's

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Speaker 3: names match up two, you know, long and small and

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Speaker 3: but there's more to it than that.

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Speaker 2: That's like a little you know, that's a teaser. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I like that. You know what, do you know what

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Speaker 2: what neighbor implies in Hebrew?

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Speaker 3: No, tell me what does neighbor of imply in Hebrew?

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Speaker 2: People you cannot avoid?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't mean geographic. It doesn't mean like you

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Speaker 2: only have like four neighbors, people who around your house,

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Speaker 2: So people in your in your life you can't avoid.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And I find that concept so fascinating because you know,

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Speaker 2: then it love thy neighbor takes on a whole different

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Speaker 2: thing other than you know, it's like the love that

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Speaker 2: you might have for a neighbor doesn't end at the

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Speaker 2: end of a block.

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Speaker 3: It's the people that are in your community. Basically, it's

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Speaker 3: like you just cannot avoid that if they're gonna work there,

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Speaker 3: your neighbor, because you cannot avoid them your.

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Speaker 2: Work, right, or are the people you're going to see

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Speaker 2: a Temple.

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Speaker 3: Or those two young Yeah, exactly. Anybody you're going to

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Speaker 3: be really with is your your neighbor, you know.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you may be in conflict with them, but

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Speaker 2: can't avoid them, you might as well work it out.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was love that. Well, all right, So again that's

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Speaker 2: Doyle's World is Lost and Found. The Unknown History is

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Speaker 2: a sure Combs and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. You can

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Speaker 2: pre order that right now on Amazon. Let's go back

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Speaker 2: to something that I mentioned before the break, which was

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Speaker 2: doctor Catherine ramslan internationally recognized expert on serial killer as

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Speaker 2: a criminologist, and she I've made an offense comment once

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Speaker 2: about some of the things we know that define the

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Speaker 2: characteristics of a serial killer. And she made a point

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Speaker 2: to say it's a myth that serial killers want to

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Speaker 2: be caught that in fact, it's the opposite. They don't

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Speaker 2: want to be caught. They're not interested in turning themselves

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Speaker 2: in this idea, the sort of you know, Dustyevskian concept

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Speaker 2: about you know, chase me that it's over, there's too

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Speaker 2: fine a point on it. Where are you with that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I would say that no one knows killer wants

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Speaker 3: to get caught. I mean, it means serving time in jail.

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Speaker 3: I means you don't hanged exactly. But then again, you

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Speaker 3: could be a little game that you're playing when you are.

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Speaker 3: And that's why they leave things behind, I mean, and

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Speaker 3: that's how they get. Remember that's good detective work, is

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Speaker 3: how they find. You know, with serial killer, they their

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Speaker 3: patterns are always left behind. So they are leaving things

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Speaker 3: behind as far as patterns are concerned. Sometimes they leave

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Speaker 3: little objects behind. The Jack the Ripper crimes themselves left

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Speaker 3: behind some objects and they have meetings to the serial killer,

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Speaker 3: but maybe not to you. And I'm just going to

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Speaker 3: go over the Jack the Ripper ones. I mean, there

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Speaker 3: were two that I really find which were like stand out.

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Speaker 3: There were thimbles left behind, and they were handkerchiefs left behind,

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Speaker 3: and that was always in like you know, when they

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Speaker 3: did the inquest, those objects always came up. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I know other people say they were coins left behind

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Speaker 3: and brass rings for like some type of black magic visual,

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Speaker 3: which they were not. They that wasn't there. That's all

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Speaker 3: mess and that's all they believe. But the handkerchiefs were there,

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Speaker 3: and they're all part of the inquests and symbols left

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Speaker 3: behind planted, they were you know, they were purposely planted

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Speaker 3: next to the victims. And those are the ones I

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Speaker 3: like the most because the handkerchief is really intellectually based.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you read or Fellow and you see

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Speaker 3: what you know, Iago does to Desdemona. He manipulates that

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Speaker 3: beautiful fidelity of the handkerchief into something that represents infidelity.

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Speaker 3: So if the ripper understood or had ever was a

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Speaker 3: student of the board and knew that the handkerchief being

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Speaker 3: left behind could be a symbol of infidelity, it's a

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Speaker 3: clue for his motive or why he killed these women,

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Speaker 3: because really he really didn't have a motive. He wasn't

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Speaker 3: doing it for robbery, he wasn't doing it for lust.

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Speaker 3: You know, there was really no motive why he killed

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Speaker 3: a specific woman. There was a pattern, but there was

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Speaker 3: no motive that he wasn't doing it to like financial gain,

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Speaker 3: you know, like like HH Holmes would do it for

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Speaker 3: financial game. You know, he would insurance policies on the

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Speaker 3: women with the you know, but that's financial game. That's

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Speaker 3: that's different. But there was nothing here. So he left

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Speaker 3: behind those handkerchiefs as a as as like a calling

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Speaker 3: card saying here I am. I killed this woman, not

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Speaker 3: because of who she was, but she represents infidelity to me.

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Speaker 3: And the symbol is something that I find is fascinating,

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Speaker 3: and it's it's one of the things you find in

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Speaker 3: actually Peter Pan, which is actually James James Barry wrote

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Speaker 3: Peter Pan. It's actually a friend of Arthur Corona Doyle.

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Speaker 3: They were cricket teammates together and in Peter Pan, Wendy

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Speaker 3: Darling gives Peter a symbol and he says, you know,

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Speaker 3: this represents a kiss. So it's almost like this is

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Speaker 3: a kiss. And the symbols being left away from the

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Speaker 3: woman being planted means this is again an active infidelity.

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Speaker 3: The symbols not placed on your hand, it's taken away

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Speaker 3: from you. And also they of course the rippers stole

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Speaker 3: all the rings. He took the rings off the and

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Speaker 3: Chat Chapman. She lost her rings, and because rings represented

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Speaker 3: in fidelity, so she couldn't be she couldn't died with

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Speaker 3: a ring on her finger, it would represent the fidelity.

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Speaker 3: So those are the three things that I noticed that

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Speaker 3: the that were being left. But as far as you know,

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Speaker 3: being wanted to be caught, I can say, they probably

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Speaker 3: like to play with the toy with the police. They

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Speaker 3: like the toy with society. I don't think any serial killer,

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Speaker 3: unless they're really criminally insane, wants to get put into

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Speaker 3: the difference than get hanged or executed or executed now,

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Speaker 3: so I do agree with the you're expert that they

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Speaker 3: don't want to They don't want to be caught.

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Speaker 2: There isn't a stop me before I kill again motif

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Speaker 2: to the Okay, let's go back. First of all, the

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Speaker 2: thimble changes the way I'm going to play Monopoly next time.

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Speaker 3: So you.

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Speaker 2: Play, Yeah, you can have the race car. You can

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Speaker 2: have the race car. I'm going to be the thimble.

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Speaker 2: So but then the that concept of the handkerchief A

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Speaker 2: was there any evidence he said? Says that Sir Arthur

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Speaker 2: Conan Doyle was familiar with with Shakespeare, that he was

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Speaker 2: a fan of Shakespeare.

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Speaker 3: About Doyle was like he Ba said, it was like

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Speaker 3: bathing in Shakespeare. Since he was a child, his mother

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Speaker 3: read him Shakespeare and a Thurian legends. When he went

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Speaker 3: to school, Doyle had to act out the plays during

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Speaker 3: the winter recess, and of course the plays were always Shakespearean,

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Speaker 3: so he knew Shakespeare he could probably quote to Shakespeare

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Speaker 3: as matter of fact. One of the things that are

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Speaker 3: in our lost stories. He starts off with a Shakespeare quote,

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Speaker 3: and even though it's not officially written by Sir Arthur

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Speaker 3: Conan Doyle, it's his work. And he starts up with

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Speaker 3: a Shakespeare quote. And there's a lot of Shakespeare in

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Speaker 3: the in the Homestales too, all put in there, like

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Speaker 3: little lines that he throws in there. So he was

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Speaker 3: fully aware of the words that Shakespeare used in the

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Speaker 3: and the reasons behind them, like the waking up, the

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Speaker 3: word assassins and all that. He knew all that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so then the was there anything on the handkerchief?

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Speaker 2: Had the handkerchief been used to clean a blade or

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Speaker 2: was it a pristine handkerchief that was just dropped you know.

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Speaker 3: Actually he actually wiped his blades and other pieces of

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Speaker 3: paper that were found near the bodies. He actually left

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Speaker 3: the handkerchiefs in pretty nice conditions as a symbol of infidelity,

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Speaker 3: like I'm giving you this handkerchief which I have manipulated

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Speaker 3: to represent your active infidelity. So no, they weren't like

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Speaker 3: used like with to wipe his hands off, and he

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Speaker 3: just threw them down. That was not what he just

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Speaker 3: actually left them there as like a calling guard.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and they weren't were were handkerchiefs considered a sign

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Speaker 2: of aristocracy or of success, that the lower classes wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have a handkerchief, but the upper classes would no.

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Speaker 3: No, the rob they had. Now, even when you look

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Speaker 3: in some of the at the Mary Jane Kelly's room,

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Speaker 3: who was I don't think it was one of the victims,

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Speaker 3: but she had handkerchiefs in her room. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of the victims carried handkerchiefs with them, but these were

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Speaker 3: not like they actually do an inquest. That was one

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Speaker 3: of the things was did They would ask people that

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Speaker 3: knew the victims did she had? Was this her handkerchief?

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Speaker 3: And they would always say that was not hers, that

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Speaker 3: did not belong to her, That was not her item.

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Speaker 3: She had that one, but she didn't have this one that.

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Speaker 2: Was except that, you know, there's a difference between I mean,

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Speaker 2: unless you're saying that there wasn't in this era. There's

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Speaker 2: a difference between male handkerchiefs and female handkerchiefs, and that

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Speaker 2: men's handkerchiefs tend to be, you know, much more simply

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Speaker 2: adorned and if they may even have you know, they

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Speaker 2: may even have a monogram on it, whereas a female

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Speaker 2: may have. I'm going based on my grandmother's handkerchiefs when

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Speaker 2: she treasured and passed down, they were very elaborate.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm sure, I know. I don't think you know

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Speaker 3: there was I don't have any you know, photographic you know,

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Speaker 3: things I can look at to see what they was

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Speaker 3: left with. I don't. I would tend to believe that

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Speaker 3: they were not monogrammed, and I would tend to believe

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Speaker 3: they were not that elaborate per se. But I would

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Speaker 3: say they were most likely to be of the color white.

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Speaker 3: And I'll tell you why, because when Doyle was about

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Speaker 3: fourteen years old, he actually writes about an event at

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Speaker 3: his school. And I told you, if you remember, I

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Speaker 3: told you he had a very bad school experience. He

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Speaker 3: was beaten basically every day, beaten by the professors, and

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Speaker 3: the faculty would always whip him with this thick rubber

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Speaker 3: tlly on his hand and stripped the skin off his hand.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he was really abusive kid. But when he

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Speaker 3: was fourteen, he wrote his mother that a teacher named

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Speaker 3: mister Crea And I'm going to tell that because this

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Speaker 3: is important for the shot clothes people. C hri A.

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Speaker 3: This teacher, mister Crea basically said Doyle Doyle, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to kill you in the middle of vesper servers and

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Speaker 3: started waving a Doyle writist. He started waving a white

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Speaker 3: handkerchief around over his head, screaming Doyle Doyle, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to kill you. I'm going to kill you. So he

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Speaker 3: actually uses the word white handkerchief and that that story

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Speaker 3: actually was meant to as a as a way to

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Speaker 3: tell his mother that I know you're having an affair

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Speaker 3: with with the lodger Brian Waller without a human having

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Speaker 3: to say it, because he tells his mother that I

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Speaker 3: was with my teacher and we were reading a story

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Speaker 3: called Durraicher, and d Raicher is a German word for revenge.

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Speaker 3: He actually tells his mother this, and then he says,

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Speaker 3: you should read the book. You should get the book

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Speaker 3: in English. Now the book is written by Ada Lee Wald,

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Speaker 3: so that means it doesn't mean anything because it's a

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Speaker 3: German book. But he had an English name, which was

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Speaker 3: Kurt Waller, and the name of the mother's well lodger

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Speaker 3: at the time was Brian Waller. So it was a

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Speaker 3: way of saying, I know that you're having an affair.

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Speaker 3: And that's why he used the word korea because if

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Speaker 3: you in the first Sherlock Holmestail, there's two sections where

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Speaker 3: the killer, well the murderer of the Jefferson basically writes

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Speaker 3: on the wall the word rach in blood. Well, those

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Speaker 3: are the those are the five letters that are in

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Speaker 3: krea r A c h e are the same letters

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Speaker 3: as an anagram of krea c h r e a.

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Speaker 3: So rach in German means revenge. So it was his

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Speaker 3: way of telling his mom, I know you're very educated.

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Speaker 3: You're going to find the book. You're going to know

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Speaker 3: the name of the book in English is written by Waller,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to understand that the white handkerchief is

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Speaker 3: a method of infidelity, and you're going to know I

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Speaker 3: know that you're you're sleeping with this guy in the house.

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Speaker 3: It's it's Conan Doyle's way of saying, he's really brilliant,

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Speaker 3: but he's not gonna he's not going to embarrass you.

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Speaker 2: An alternate meaning of of Kurt is wolf.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it could be world for you to go yeah, wolf,

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Speaker 3: and she's clothing Yeah. Absolutely.

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