WEBVTT - A Beast of a Candidate. Mark Halperin Talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:03.760 If all your food, he's out there. I'm unwrapping a 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.360 McDonald's steakagg and cheese bagel. Look at this steak and 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.600 the juice running down the side. Got a little bit 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.680 on a rapper here, and then the fluffy egg and 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.640 real cheese floarted over the side, looking just so good. 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.480 M M gri old onions and about a bagel. Two 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.120 thumbs up a McDonald steakagg and cheese bagel for breakfast. 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:32.080 Love it up, I participating McDonald's. Mark alprin is around 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.400 here known best as the co author of Game Change 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.640 and Doubled Down with John Hyliman Uh. He's been a 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:43.560 former senior political analyst for ms NBC. He co hosted 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.440 The Zoo, The Uh, The Gymnastics of Anthia, the Circus, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.440 which is great politics show as well. Uh I kild 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.680 Um and is a clear eyed and clear headed thinker 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.840 and write about the writer about politics because four hours 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:06.440 imple this is Armstrong and Getty extra large. And Mark 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.720 Halpern joins us. Now, Hey, Mark, welcome to the show. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:10.199 We look forward to talking to you, and I gotta 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.319 tell you from from my standpoint, I'm really glad to 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.360 have you back on the scene. Talking politics a missed voice, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.400 in my opinion, very nice. I appreciate that. Thank you. 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.319 Oh yeah, the feeling goes for both of us. Long 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.039 long enjoyed your work. Um, there are so many different 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:26.960 directions I could take this, and obviously we want to 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.959 take talk about the book How to Beat Trump, but 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.640 just your expertise and all this and some sticks out 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.920 in my mind going back to you criticized it at 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:39.560 the time, you criticize it afterwards, outlets, particularly The New 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.920 York Times, predicting who could win by how much and 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.800 whether or not that was the role of journalism. I mean, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.160 I think Donald Trump has done a lot of things 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.280 that are rightly criticized, but I think the American media 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.680 has largely failed to rise the moment of covering this president. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.800 A lot of the media acts says things that the 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.080 Democratic National Committee wouldn't say in in going after the President. 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.760 I've just never thought that was the role of the press. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.040 The role of the press is to inform the public, 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.720 to tell people what's being said. It's not a matter 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.320 of false equivalent to as a matter of safeguarding the 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.240 public interest. I think the most ironic thing about all 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.520 this is the press helped Trump get elected the first time. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:23.920 And even though a lot of people in the media 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.840 would like to see Donald Trump not be reelected, as 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.000 I write about in the book, so much of the 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.160 coverage is gonna is helping him because it's leaving the 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.120 impression if you're New York CNN or reader of MSNBC 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.000 or reader of the New York Times, get the impression 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.799 that Trump can't possibly win, when in fact, most of 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.400 the democratic strategies I talked to, who are very smart 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.959 people who got a lot of experience, say Trump is 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.840 the favorite to get reelected, and the press is helping 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.360 him by leaving the impression he can't possibly win, just 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.799 like they did four years ago. Well, and I think 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.600 it goes beyond that. I was reading one of the 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.120 lead articles about the recent impeachment hearing in the New 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.200 York Times, and it was so clearly it was so 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.280 soaked in editorial that I think a lot of the 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.440 uh most respective voices in American journalism have absolutely given 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.200 up on the idea of I am going to maintain 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:18.239 a relationship with moderates or moderate Trump supporters, or those 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.160 of us will hold our nose and like the judges 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.400 or whatever, um, I think they've given that away. You 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.840 just anybody who has any affinity for Trump whatsoever, even 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:31.720 nose holding affinity, can't stand a lot of the coverage. Well, look, 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.720 the conservatives in this country. I've said from the beginning 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.120 of my career about half the country thinks the press 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.440 is completely liberally biased, and they've got a lot of 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.760 the data they can point to. I used to say 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:43.880 to my friends in the media, even if you don't 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.400 think you're liberally biased, you need to understand that half 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.480 the country thinks you are. And you should look in 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.280 the mirror and say, well, why do they think that? 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:51.920 Are they making it up? Or do they have reason 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.360 to think of think it. One of the things I 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:55.960 read about in the book that I think that I 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.840 think speaks to the question you just asked, is you 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.440 have to appreciate that almost have the country voted for 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.400 Donald Trump, that the consultants I talked to, the strategist 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.480 I talked to, think he's the favorite to be relected 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.040 in parts disease and incumbent. And you have to understand 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.160 those people, those people who voted for Donald Trump, many 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.000 of them did holding their nose to some extent, but 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.560 they thought that the country was going in the wrong direction. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.480 They didn't want another career politician. And as you said, 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.440 so much of the coverage of impeachment of aval Trump 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.480 in general, it is colored by a disdain for his supporters, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.080 a disdain for him. But again, I just don't think 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.880 it's the role for journalists, particularly disdain for Americans almost 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.720 half the country who still support him. Our job is 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.840 to explain not just who they are, but what they 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.359 care about, why they feel the way they do, and 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.360 not look down our noses at them. And I think 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.440 I think it's just like I said, it's it's helping 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.560 Donald Trump, absolutely absolutely. I mean I want to get 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.880 to the particulars of why you and strategists think Trump 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.279 is gonna be hard to beat. But well, you're just saying, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.520 how does the media not get that they're helping him? 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.720 They loathe the guy, but the way they approach it. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.840 Many times I've been fed up with Trump, where I've 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.080 thought that the nation would be better off with someone else, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.440 And then either Bill Maher will say something. You know, 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.200 nobody can control what comedians do, but whether it's Bill 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.800 Maher the Washington Post, not just think fuck you guys, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.680 I'm voting for Trump just because I hate y'all. I mean, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.520 and that's that happens. That is that is that is 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.840 a that is a sentiment that I hear whenever I've 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.040 talked to people who supported the president four years ago, 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.039 and there's almost no one who supported the president outside 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.400 his family who couldn't list a bunch of things they 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.560 don't like about what he does. But when it comes 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.240 down to a choice between Donald Trump and the Democrats, 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.000 and when they and they, they're subjected to a daily 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.000 drumbeat of media coverage which is hostile not just to 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.719 the president but to his supporters. What he expects going 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:46.880 to happen. People are gonna say, you know what, the 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:48.960 press doesn't want me to do this again, I'm gonna 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.800 do it again, and that I don't know why the 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.320 media doesn't see that. Um, they're running, they're running their 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.280 lives in a way that is counter to what they 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.160 want more than anything else, just to get donalds up 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.240 out of the White House. Which is really interesting. Yeah, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:07.080 it is. Although you know, this is certainly not under disgust, 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.159 but I think it's under appreciated. Were based out in 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:14.480 northern California and the the ideological bubble phenomenon where you 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.479 willingly surround yourself only with people who agree with you 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:19.960 um as opposed to you know, back when we were 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.839 growing up, where you might be dimly aware of somebody's politics, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.919 but it's unlikely to come up, so you just you 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.320 always brush up against different opinions and ideologies just because 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.880 you don't particularly care. Um. The ideological bubble thing is 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:37.000 absolutely deadly. You just are never cross examined in your beliefs. 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.200 But again, you know that's certainly been discussed. So so 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.920 you talked to strategy, Go ahead, Well, I was gonna 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.920 say one of the reasons that I was one of 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.360 the few national reporters who said Trump could win four 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.120 years ago is because I covered Trump rallies in over 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.440 twenty five states, and I didn't just stand in the 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.760 press area and listen to speech and make fun of 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:55.960 the way he talked. I talked to the people who 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.120 were there, and I asked them why they were there, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.920 why they supported him, And I looked at how big 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.799 the crads were, and I went to Hillary Clint events 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.320 and I did the same thing. And if he did that, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:07.800 it was easy to see that of course Donald Trump 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.040 would win because he had enthusiasm and they're writing the 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.120 book he was leading a movement. A lot of liberals 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.080 in the press mock that and say, oh, it's not 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.560 a movement. It was a movement. It was a movement 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.960 that Trump didn't create. It's a movement that he saw 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.920 and took charge of, and and and and used to 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.480 get elected. Hillary Clinton did not lead a movement, and 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.440 and that made the difference. And the same thing could 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.600 happen in this election. And you talked to a whole 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.800 bunch of strategists, Republicans and Democrats. People have run campaigns, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.800 some of the smartest people in the country on this stuff, 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.320 and they believe he can win. And why is that? 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.400 Most of them think he's an overwhelming favorite. Some of 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.320 them were down right despondent. On the Democratic side, first 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.240 of all, you go to the question of incumbency. Since 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.720 four elected incumbents have lost their bids for re election, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.640 it's hard to beat any incumbent. And we've had three 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.080 straight two term presidents, first time since the founding of 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.640 the Republic. That's happened. Clinton, wish Obama, all of them 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.200 learned from the previous guy. How do you use the 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.320 benefits of incumbency. And as we know, Donald Trump will 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.520 use every every trick in the book. This guy does 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.720 not want to lose. So incumbents always leveraged the office. 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:17.320 Trump will leveraty office. And finally, Trump is a beast 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.960 of a candidate. You know again, you can you can 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.240 say he's he's got, he's shallow, you can say it 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.360 doesn't always tell the truth. A lot of negative things 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.960 about Donald Trump. He's a beast of a candidate, he 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:28.960 does not want to lose, and he's going up a 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.000 Democratic against end up going up against the Democrat who's 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.120 not gonna have the same amount of money as Donald Trump, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.200 who's not gonna have the same experience running nationalist Donald Trump, 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.839 and is not going to have the leverage of incompacy 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.599 the way Trump does. So he's got a ton of advantages. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.559 And that doesn't even get to the question of the 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.080 fact that the Democratic candidates have gone so far to 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.439 the left that that's going to make it more more 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.199 possible for Donald Trump to get votes in the center, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.079 which a lot of people thought he couldn't possibly do. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.160 Follow up a little more on him being a beast 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.440 of a candidate, whether you know at at the podium 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.120 and a rally on the debate stage. He's he's interesting. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.760 You know, even people who hate him follow him on Twitter, 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.520 watch his rallies, talk about him all the time. One 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.000 of the people I've interviewed for the books that Trump 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.280 doesn't dominate the news. Trump is the news. If you 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:17.960 want to try to run against him, you need to 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.360 figure out how to play alongside of him in his space. 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:23.600 But don't have the illusion that you're going to do 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.720 something to to be part of the news. Trump was 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:31.240 a television producer. Trump Trump is the most successful person 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.320 in politics and the history of Twitter. He understands how 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.120 to communicate with real people. Talk like a real person. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.479 I think like a real person. He's like Frank Sinatra, 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.160 He's like he's like Johnny Carson. He has the capacity 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.280 to communicate with people in a way that they find entertaining, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.160 even if they don't like him. And you look at 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.800 these democrats, and one of the people interviewed for the 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.480 books that our candidates are they were all they all 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.280 took debate class in high school. We need a theater major. 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.880 We need some who understands how to how to communicate, 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.760 how to talk from the heart. Trump does that like 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.960 him or not? These democratics strategists said, he knows how 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.680 to win. Last time it was Korey Lewandowski, Donald Trump 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.720 and a Twitter account. This time it's Donald Trump, air 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.679 Force one and maybe close to two billion dollars. So 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.040 you harness off a real campaign to a candidate who 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.440 I think, after Bill Flynn, it's the second most impressive 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.680 political athlete I've ever covered. And I've said it before 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.640 and I got heat for it. But look, I think 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.800 I think it's I think it's it's it's uh, it's 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:35.640 people like to these Latin these days. I think it's 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:40.680 prima facia true. He won the Republican nomination and the presidency. 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.199 He had no business winning either. This is a guy 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.760 who was a Nancy Pelosi Chuck Schumer donor, a guy 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.680 who was pro choice, a guy who had never run 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.960 for anything. First time out, he runs and wins. I 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.160 just think, of course, he's a great political athlete, and 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.080 Barack Obama is a great as a great politician too, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.680 But he he had been touted as as a president 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.679 since he's been at Harvard Law School. He had David Axelrod, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.480 David Plos, He raised a ton of money, He had 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.360 a real infrastructure of people, county delegates, he had lots 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.480 of help. Donald Trump did it pretty much all by himself, 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.640 and now he's got all those same skills with the 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.240 benefits of incumbency and a big, big death star for 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.200 presidential campaign. So one of the ways we amuse ourselves 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.480 primarily off the year, but sometimes on is will speculate 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.520 about what the debate would look like. Can I realize 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:31.319 we're getting way ahead of the book because it kind 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.959 of moves chronologically, but um on the debate stage, as 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.400 Trump does what Trump does, I don't know. I mean, 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.040 Bernie could certainly match him for bluster. Uh we we 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.920 just we pictured Joe Biden having that moment he had 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.040 in one of the debates recently where Joe Biden goes 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.839 off on a venezuela and record players. You know, that's 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.040 one of his moment and Trump just turned into the 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.120 audience and saying what the hell was that He'll go 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.280 in for the kill and people laughing in yeah. Look, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.800 it's instructive again to look at four years ago. A 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:02.240 lot of the Democrats I talked to you for the 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.760 book said, after every debate, we said Hillary one, and 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:07.760 we slapped ourselves on the back and said, you know, 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.240 Trump's losing the election right here in these debates. After 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.120 Trump won, a lot of them went back and looked 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.160 at the three debates as I did for the book, 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.120 and you see again he was a strong debater for 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.800 speaking to real people. He had an unusual style. He 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.679 was often he often looked angry, um, he often went 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.160 on tangents, He often didn't answer the question that was asked. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.480 But in terms of gut communication, he was. He was effective. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.720 And what a lot of people I interviewed said was 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.520 Hillary was too passive. She she basically thought she had 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.800 the thing in the bag. She thought, let Trump talk 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.640 and and show off his his negative sides and people 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.960 will turn against him. All of them said, You've got 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.440 to be much more aggressive this time. So these are 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.600 strategies who are worried about Trump winning. But the point 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.600 of the book is not an attack on Donald Trump. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.959 It's it's my reporting of what these democrats say must 0:12:58.000 --> 0:12:59.880 be done if Democrats are gonna have a chance to 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.480 And so it's not an anti Trump book or a 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.520 pro Trump book. It's a book that says what a 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.720 smart democrats think that need to be done. And in 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.000 terms of the debate, a lot of them share the 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.560 view you guys have, which is not very many of 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.560 these Democrats are easy to envision standing on that stage 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.160 with Trump and and obviously winning the debates. Do you 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.400 do you do you play at his level? I mean 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.000 if he if he says on the stage you ought 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:23.760 to be in jail, or you're a liar or whatever, 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:24.920 do you do you get down to that level? Do 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.320 you try to be above it? I mean, what are 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.160 most strategist thinks to do it? Yeah, I mean that's 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.360 one of the big questions that people were grappling with 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.960 after after what Hillary Clinton went through. I mean, if 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.880 it's basically somewhere in between. You can't let him get 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.319 away with stuff they say, But you can't play at 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:43.400 his level because, as one of them said, Trump is 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.720 the master at the level he plays on. You're not 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.880 no one's gonna walk in and do this. You know, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.840 most of the people running have run before a lot. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.800 You know, they've been career politicians and they know how 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:55.360 to run a normal race. They don't know how to 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.000 run this phrase. So what all these all these people 0:13:58.000 --> 0:13:59.760 said is not just in the debates, but in the 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.960 game pay. In general, you have to not play Trump's game. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.880 You have to figure out the game you're gonna play. 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.160 We have to engage with him. He can't just let 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.280 him gallop off and do what he does. So somewhere 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.040 in between, engage a little bit and try to pivot 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:13.760 to talk about what you want to talk about on 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:15.840 the level you want to talk about it. Just as 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:17.600 an aside, it occurs to me I had to sell 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.960 my services as a Trump stand in for debate training. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.480 I mean, because I tell you what, you had better 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.880 be stealed to that sort of thing on a debate stage. 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.320 I mean because if you think I'll handle it, I'll 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.360 think on my feet, I'll deal with it. I just 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.160 it would be a rare, rare brain that could deal 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.520 with that. Yeah, I mean because as you may never 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.760 dealt with anything like it. And what the consultants I 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.200 talked to said was, you can't wait for the debates 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.320 to start engaging with them. And a lot of them, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.120 you know, since the book was published, and and and 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:51.920 and the campaign's gone forward, a lot of them say 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.560 they're all making a mistake. Now they're thinking just about 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.480 running against the other Democrats. They say, you've got to 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.200 start practicing about what it's like to go up against him. 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.400 You look at Elizabeth Warren when she went up against 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.880 Trump on the Pocahona stuff killed her. It killed her, 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.320 and and and it's an example for a lot of 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.360 Democrats to say, not that's how you shouldn't be trying 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.360 to engage with Trump. You got engaged with him, and 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.840 you gotta and you gotta win, and you gotta show 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:17.760 that you can do and you gotta practice because if 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.120 you wait till September of next year, when you're on 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.880 the debate stage with him, you know it, maybe too 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.160 will be too late. I'll say one more thing. A 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:26.160 lot of the people I talked to you for the 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.080 book said it's possible Trump won't debate. You know, there's 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.240 nothing in the law that says he has to. And 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.360 if he thinks he's better off not debating, he may 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.240 just say I'm skipping him. Oh. I don't know that 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.840 he would turn down that sort of the super TV extravaganza. 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.840 I'm not sure if people can talk about it. Here's 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.400 what he could do, though. You know, the debates for 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.720 the last many years have been run by this group, 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.800 the Commission on Presidential debates. Trump hates the Commission on 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.640 Presidential Bates. He thinks that he they screwed him last time. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.080 Trump could basically say, you know what, I'm the president, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.520 I'm hosting the debate. I'll show up in debate. Sean 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:04.640 Hannity will be the moderator. You'll welcome to come. It's fantastic. 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:06.720 I got a question straight out of the book I 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.720 want to hit you with. But I've been wondering this 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:10.800 and since you've you know, you've been on the ground 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.960 in Iowa New Hampshire and followed all this sort of stuff. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.000 Does any precedent matter for anything anymore? Is there any 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.200 point in looking at, you know, historical trends or which 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.640 is just everything new loss is new. But I'll tell 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.720 you Iowa New Hampshire. Every four years people say, well, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.440 how can they be as influential as they were in 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.360 the past. That's so anachronistic. They're they're lily white states, 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.840 they don't have big cities. I wan to Hampshire are 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.520 shaping up to be super influential for the Democrats. So 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.880 that's something that stayed the same. And I think I 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.800 think another thing is the same is you've got to 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.280 have a message. You've got to have a story to tell, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.200 as as I was saying in the book, an American story. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:46.960 And if you're gonna beat Trump, you gotta have an 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.080 American story that's better than Trump's story about how you're 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.120 gonna how the country will be under your under your presidency, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.560 if you beat Trump, what will America be like? That 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.640 hasn't changed. So a lot is different social media, you know, 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.440 first and foremost in the partisanship, there's a lot that's different. 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.920 But there are some bedrock things that are the same. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.439 And those those two are pretty key. You know, I 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.359 can't get past what you said, Trump, that's so great. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.720 It's Tuesday night, eight o'clock, Madison Square, Garden. Handy's the 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.720 moderate are. If you want to debate, that's where I am. 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.320 I'll pay for your stool. You're welcome to common debate me. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.680 But that's that's what we're doing. And and and again. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:25.760 If you're the Democrat, what do you do? You either 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.600 say I got no debate or I play on Trump's terms. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:34.480 So putting aside Joe Biden's uh limitations as a candidate, 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:43.399 Um the whole end of the chaos, Fatherly steady, Um 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:49.240 mature feel of his candidacy. I think is really good. 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.400 I think he's a terrible candidate, and I don't think 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.479 he'll do I don't think he'll get the nomination. But 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.200 what did your analysts think about that field? Just understanding 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.440 that even Trump's reporters are getting a little stressed out 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.360 and getting Trump fatigue. A minority of the people I interviewed, 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.440 a small minority agreed with you. Most of them said, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.159 that's basically what Hillary Clinton did last time. Remember a 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.960 lot of her advertisements were, uh, you know, kids watching 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.880 Trump say outrageous things on television and parents being alarmed 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.800 at the example. He said, that's how she ran. But 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.399 she she was a crappy candidate. Well but but I mean, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.480 if you look at her weaknesses, a lot of the 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.080 same things are true Abiden, She'd been around forever. Uh people, 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.760 people didn't you know, who didn't see what their message was, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.920 and just saying I'm different than Trump wasn't good enough 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.280 for her. I don't think it will be good enough 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.760 for Biden at past nominee. With the majority of them 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:47.200 said was the winning messages issues and how Trump's policies 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.119 are affecting people, And you're starting to see some of 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.520 the outside groups that are trying to help the candidates. 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.640 Do this. We just go to Wisconsin, go to Michigan, 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.919 go to Pennsylvania. Find real people who have stories to 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.760 tell about how Trump's policy, who voted Trump last time, 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.159 who say his posities haven't worked for them. Find a 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.159 farmer to the tariffs. Find them someone who worked in 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.120 manufacturing who said, you know, I've been found a job 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.880 in manufacturing after Trump got elected. And make those real 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.720 people not a sideshow but central to the campaign. That's 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.359 that's what the vast majority of the strategist I talked 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.560