WEBVTT - Encore: S03 Ep. 14 - Anna and Chris’ Marital Betrayal 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.200 I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.959 Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:10.080 column for the Atlantic. 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.440 And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:15.960 and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.120 And this is Dear Therapists. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.239 Each week we invite you into a real session where 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.000 we help people confront their biggest problems and then give 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.880 them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:27.600 in their lives. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:32.280 So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week, 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.360 we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.199 couple who came to us after Anna, who is pregnant 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.120 with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:41.440 to her. 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.919 The thing that hurt me about it was when I 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.159 see tons and tons of messages to his younal co 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.120 worker and asking things like hollis your day. That was 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.000 really hurtful to me, because that's something he should be 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:55.880 asking his wife first. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.200 A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.800 It is not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.400 not a substitute for professional healthcare. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.120 By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.440 use it in partworn ful, and we may edit it 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.360 for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.319 names have been changed for the privacy of our guests. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.800 Hi Laurie, Hi guy. So what's in our mailbox today? 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.560 Today we have a letter about secrets in a marriage, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.920 and here it is deotherapists. I am five months pregnant 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.959 with my first child, a time that should be flooded 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.639 with warm and bubbly emotions, junk food cravings, and trips 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.240 to the local baby clothing store. However, the past several 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.560 days have been filled with crippling anxiety and an emotional 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.920 pain I didn't know existed. You see, I recently found 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.840 out that Chris, my husband of one year, is a 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:56.480 pathological liar and, in my mind, an adulterer. Unbeknownst to me, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.360 Chris had been meticulously hiding over twenty thousand dollars in 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.760 credit card debt. How he did this I still haven't 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.200 a clue, since we had multiple in depth conversations around 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.600 finances before and during our marriage. To make matters worse, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.240 several charges to these credit cards were for an online 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.720 adult subscription website, the deepest cut of all. While he 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.800 claims he considered this to be only porn, in my 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.480 mind he had an affair. These charges were dated during 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:28.760 the months in which we were trying to conceive our child. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.840 Despite everything, I love him deeply and desperately want this 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.720 to work. However, the emotional pain and betrayal I feel 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.520 is unbearable. I recently set strict boundaries with accountability and 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.720 set up our first couple's therapy appointment. But what if 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:50.720 this isn't enough? How on earth do I survive this? Sincerely, Anna, I. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.160 Really feel for Anna because pregnancy is a time when 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.520 people often feel a heightened sense of wanting to feel 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.720 safe and protected, and there were things going on that 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.760 she didn't know about, and now she is feeling very unsafe, 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.240 and so I think this is really less about whether 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.240 it's money or infidelity and more about deception and honesty 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.239 in the marriage. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.200 I agree, and I'm really glad that today both of 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.040 them will be on the show because this is not 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.320 something that she can repair alone. They need to repair 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.360 it together, and they have a time concern because once 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.440 that baby comes, their hands are going to be full. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.760 It's going to demand so much of their attention. They 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.960 really want to try and get in a better place 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.160 than they are right now, certainly, so it's really important 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:39.160 that they're both here today. 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.240 Yeah, so let's go talk to them and find out 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.880 what's going on. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.520 Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.200 I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:00.000 Dear Therapist. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.880 Hi Anna, Hi Chris, Well, thank you. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:06.680 For coming on our show. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:08.160 Thanks for helping us. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.960 We wanted to start by hearing a little bit about 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.520 how long you've been together, how you met a little 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.719 bit of the history of the marriage. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.800 Yeah, so we've been married just over one year. We 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.080 have been together for I would say over three years now. 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.320 We actually met online, and up. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:37.000 Until marriage, our relationship was very good, very positive. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.760 I feel like it was very healthy. And then once 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.960 we got married, certain things kind of happened gradually that 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:46.400 started to affect our relationship. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.119 What kind of things started to happen. 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:55.080 So I noticed that I would catch Chris in white 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.279 wise every now and then, and at first I just 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.800 disregarded that. I know that everyone tells a why at 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:03.719 some point and there why. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.280 What's an example of a white lie, what you call 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:07.360 a white line. 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.360 Just talking about social media? It'd be like, oh, who 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.839 are you talking to? And he would say someone that 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.200 he was not talking to and I would be like, Oh, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.719 that's not what you said. Little things like that that 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.359 just kind of broke down trust very gradually. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.480 Can I ask why you were asking him who he 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.640 was talking to? Did you suspect that maybe he was 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.080 talking to someone that he shouldn't be. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.599 Yes and no. At that point I trusted him, But 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.600 I feel like I have trust issues in general, and 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.520 so that voice in the back of my head was 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:46.880 always just wanting to get that confirmation. 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.520 Why was it that you only started asking once you 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.599 were married, but for the first three years of the 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.839 relationship those trust issues didn't really come up for you 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:59.680 in the same way, I. 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:04.280 Think, if I'm being perfectly honest, I think once we 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.479 were married, we were more comfortable with each other, and 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:13.160 that pressure of keeping the peace, I guess was gone, 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.919 and so I felt like I was more able to 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.400 ask those questions and put a little bit more pressure 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:22.719 on him in that way. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.960 Chris, can you tell us about your perspective just about 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.440 the dating and the relationship, how it proceeded, and then 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.200 we can get to these exchanges at the beginning of 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:33.960 the marriage about the white lives. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:39.560 Yeah, dating started off long distance, and it was good. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.760 Like with my company, I was able to travel on weekends, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.440 and if I couldn't travel that weekend, then she would 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.599 come down and see me. And it worked really well. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:54.960 And then I think just kind of as we got married, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.400 I kind of lost a little bit of that I 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.680 wouldn't say spark, but it just lost a little bit 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.640 of the excitement of seeing each other on the weekends 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.919 or something to look forward to. And I got pretty 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.920 engrossed with work because COVID hit, and then it just 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.040 kind of seemed like a little bit of a downward 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.680 spiral around then. 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:17.400 In what sense a downward spiral. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.320 I was working extra, so I was tired. Anna was 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.080 working extra, she was tired when we came home. It 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.640 wasn't like the fun, let's go on dates. It was 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.160 the hey, let's watch a TV show. And it kind 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.360 of a little bit got I would say, to the 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.400 point of like a daily regimen that was pretty repetitive. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.680 Were you voicing any of that is that something you 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.640 brought up in conversation to Anna, saying, Hey, we're falling 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.320 into a bit of a rout here, let's shake things up. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.560 Not really. I've always been kind of a to myself 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.040 kind of person, like I had never sought therapy or 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.960 anything like that until just a couple of weeks ago 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.840 and we started doing all of our healing. I was 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:07.160 a pretty self internalized person, and I would go through 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:12.120 ebbs and flows of emotions of being frustrated and not 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.840 wanting to talk to her about it, but not really 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.160 talking to anybody about it. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.520 Why not wanted to talk to Anna about it? 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.120 I've kind of been a lone wolf for a pretty 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.840 majority of my life, and so talking to other people 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.160 about my problems was never really anything that I did. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.760 My parents really don't talk to each other about their 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.160 problems either. They just kind of do their own thing. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.960 So I guess a lot of it would be learned, 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.679 but just kind of what I was comfortable with. 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.960 It's interesting that both of you were having these thoughts 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.000 and feelings that you weren't voicing to each other even 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.840 before the marriage. For you, Anna, you have this history 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.160 which would like to hear a little bit more about 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.000 about not trusting the person that you're with, And I 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.199 don't know, Chris, did you know that about her? 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.720 I know that she's had some pretty rough relationships in 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:15.080 the past, Like there were passing conversations or comments that 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.760 kind of led to the understanding that there were a 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.000 little bit of trust issues, but I didn't think anything 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:24.200 really significant. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.800 So you were both afraid to show up for each other. Anna, 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.840 you didn't tell him that this is a big issue 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:38.600 for you. Yeah, for three years, and if you had suspicions, 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.199 you kind of said, well, I don't want to rock 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:45.600 the boat. And you, Chris, when things started to feel 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.920 a little bit repetitive or mundane and you missed the 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:55.920 excitement of earlier in the relationship, you didn't say to her, Hey, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.599 this is how I'm feeling. What can we do? So 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:01.960 when you got married, was that the first time that 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.760 you were in the same city together or did you 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.120 have any time in the same city before you got married. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:11.800 We, at my request, moved in together right around when 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.280 we got engaged, which is about a year earlier. But 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.000 it was still kind of new and exciting, and we 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.199 hadn't really formed any of those patterns on the day 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:22.600 to day. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.800 And Chris, you said that you are a lone wolf. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.960 But have you been in relationships before and is this 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.000 something that has happened in previous relationships where you feel 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.800 a certain either frustration or something's not going the way 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.760 you want, but you have trouble working with the person 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.440 you're with to figure it out. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:47.400 Yeah. I've had one serious relationship outside of Anna. It 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:52.280 lasts just over one year, and it was a pretty 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.880 unhealthy last six or seven months. It was constant arguments. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.320 She would just find little things to argue about and 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.040 then just try to blow them up to see what 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:04.520 I would do. 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.400 Can you tell us what those sounded like? Those arguments? 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.680 I mean anything from like a comment that I'd said, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.520 or you know, if I missed a turn going somewhere. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.640 I mean, you name it. We've argued about it all. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.160 Did you end that relationship or did she? 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:19.920 I did. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.840 Did you try to talk to her about how criticized 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:25.359 you felt in the relationship? 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:25.679 Oh? 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.440 Yeah, I mean that was it was a constant conversation. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.000 I pushed that relationship probably a little further than I 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.480 ought to have because it was my first serious relationship. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:42.160 I wanted to grow the most that I could in 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.960 a relationship, so I would be ready for something serious 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.120 again after that relationship. And so I took it upon 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:56.480 myself to just try to be patient and understanding and 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.160 listen and just kind of grow some of those even 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.040 though it was in an unhealthy environment. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.680 So in that relationship, would you bring up that you 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.480 felt criticized and that you were concerned about the volume 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.640 of the criticism, or would you just respond when you 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:14.439 were criticized. 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.640 I would bring it up outside of it on occasion, 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.679 but more often than not, it would end up leading 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.800 to another argument of some sort, and so I just 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:28.880 kind of stopped. 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.600 Was there anything that happened in your relationship with Anna, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.520 even early on when things were exciting that you didn't 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.440 bring up because you were sort of trained not to, 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.000 or that if you did, it would lead to an argument. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.680 I would get upset at like stupid little things. But 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.920 I kind of just kept it to myself because I 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:58.280 figured it was more advantageous to learn how to live 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.520 with certain things. And that's something I still do that 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:02.400 I need to work on. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.320 I'm just curious about how you observed that when you 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.480 were growing up, You said that your parents never talked 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.240 about things, So what would you do with that as 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.320 a kid, and what was going on that you felt 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:15.640 they should be talking about. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.600 Oh, I feel like they should have talked about everything. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.439 My dad was a construction worker, so he'd be gone 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.640 from five o'clock in the morning till seven or eight 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.800 o'clock at night every day, and then he'd come home 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:34.160 and it was basically the dad show. It's, you know, 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.160 do what he wants to do when he wants to 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.960 do it. My mom has used me as like a 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.720 crutch for complaining about things that she's unhappy with. I 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.280 feel like that those frustrations, for example, could have been 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:46.800 brought up to. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.400 My dad, so instead of talking directly to your dad, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:51.720 she would talk to you. 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:52.880 Yeah. 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.360 Did you ever say to her, Hey, I wish you'd 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.640 talk to dad about this instead of me. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.840 Sometimes? Definitely more, I'd say in the last couple of years. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.280 You were saying earlier that the instinct was not to 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.720 talk to Anna if there was something that was frustrating. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.200 Did you notice that that was the same strategy your 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.920 mom had of just like deal with the frustrations or 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.840 find someone to vent them too, but not actually direct 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.600 them to the person that's causing them. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.920 A little bit like early on, I would talk to 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.680 my mom about it just to vent it out, because 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.440 that's you know, she used me I could. I felt 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.760 like I could talk to her and she would generally 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.800 give me some pretty decent wisdom, I would say, But 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.280 I felt like it was kind of like a do 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.040 as I say, not as I do type of thing. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.360 And I had mentioned these white lies that were going 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.320 on at the beginning of the marriage, and I was 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.880 curious about your take on that. What was going on 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:55.760 for you? What was that about for you? 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:01.360 At least on our social media we it had kind 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.520 of like you're doing your thing, I'm doing my thing, 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.520 and it would just be like, you know who you 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.960 talked to you about, nobody or coworker or whatever. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.920 Yes, they were co workers, a lot of them were female. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.200 And there were a couple of times where I went 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:25.120 through his messages and discovered a ton of messages with 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:30.200 a particular coworker, and so that was obviously not something 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.080 that was disclosed to me. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:38.040 Yeah, and I didn't really think anything of it in 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.200 the moment as being inappropriate because it's just platonic conversation 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.960 with coworkers. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.880 Ka He's saying. It was all platonic conversations. So is 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.680 there something that came up for you where you didn't 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.240 believe that, or do you have some philosophy that he 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.200 shouldn't be friends with women, which is something different from 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:00.680 him lying or deceiving you. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.840 I would say the thing that hurt me about it 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:09.640 was at this time, he was in training for his 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.320 new job and I barely heard from him, which is 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.960 understandable because they're very busy. However, when I see tons 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.840 and tons of messages to a female co worker who 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.160 he's in training with and asking things like house your day, 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.560 that was really hurtful to me because that's something he 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.760 should be asking his wife, you know, how's your day, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.800 what's going on? And instead of asking me those things, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.080 he was reaching out to his female co worker. And so, 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.600 while yes it was platonic technically for me, it was 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.680 still hurtful because it felt like there was some sort 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:50.000 of emotional void being filled by talking to her. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.320 And can you tell us a little bit about your 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.800 history with trust issues and when those first started coming 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:56.720 up in your life? 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.920 Yeah, I would say it definitely started with my childhood 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:07.960 and in particular my mother. She had a very troubled 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.920 past of her own and didn't really have the tools 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:18.240 to be like a good mother. And she is very 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.720 dishonest and manipulative in a lot of ways. And there 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:28.240 was one particular instance where about ten years ago, she 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:36.600 basically spent my dad's retirement for one k and didn't 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.399 tell him, and he found out about it and they 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.560 were separated for a while because of it. And it's 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.920 just the fact that she wouldn't come forward and admit 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.159 it even after being caught. She just really has a 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:53.160 very big issue with being honest. And that's something that's 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:54.399 really really affected me. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.600 So both your mom and your husband spent money in 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.360 secret it? Yeah, can I ask cow old you are? 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:04.480 I'm thirty two. 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.960 Okay, So this happened in your early twenties. Growing up, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.119 you had a sense that she wasn't honest. Can you 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:13.119 talk a little bit about that. 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.600 Yeah, there was a lot that she hid from my dad. 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.640 For example, she would take us to the store and 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:22.920 you know, buy us ice cream or something, and she'd 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.720 be like, Okay, don't tell dad. There was one particular 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.960 instance where I got into trouble with my dad and 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.480 she said that she disagreed with him and that she 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.200 would have my back and talk to him, and when 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.879 it came down to it, she said nothing, and so 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:44.239 I was punished for it. Little things like that that 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.680 broke my trust even as a little kid. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:52.359 And then you also experienced some dishonesty in other relationships. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.520 Yeah, there was one other relationship that was very toxic, 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.280 lasted on and off for about four and a half years. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:02.720 He was just. 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:09.840 Very dishonest. He would just constantly lie about everything. He 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.240 lied about being on the basketball team at school, he 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.120 ed about his family, He lighted about just how much 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.879 money he made, just everything he think of. He ed 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:21.480 about What. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.639 Would you do when you discovered these lies? Would you 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:25.520 confront him? 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.080 I did, and it did not go all. He would 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.240 essentially gaslight me and make me feel like it is crazy, 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:39.200 and you know, come up with some excuse and somehow 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.080 ended up putting the blame onto me, and it just 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:46.280 kind of made me go further into my shell a 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:46.760 little bit. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.720 When you first got together with Chris, what made you 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.600 feel like you could or could not trust him? How 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.879 did you feel going into that when it came to trust. 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.280 Originally I felt really good about it. I know he's 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.399 a good person. Even now, he's just a good guy. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.200 He has a good book ethic, he has good morals, 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.639 he has a stronalogy with his family. You know, he 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.960 showed up and he using to show up. He called 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.240 and said he was going to call. All the things 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.440 said I've been looking for. He was it. And so yeah, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:19.920 in the beginning, it is really good. 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.320 Did he know about this history that you've had with 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.760 trust and especially the history with your mom and the 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.000 money of the four oh one K that she was spending. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.600 Probably not in detail, but I feel like I definitely 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.200 mentioned it at least. 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.600 You know, a couple of times you said you had 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.840 conversations even before the marriage about finances and such. Tell 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:43.360 me about those conversations. 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.879 We did premarital counseling. We just did of course that 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.359 was online, and we learned that it's really important to 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.159 talk our finances beforehand, and so we did. We talked 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.199 about what that looked like for us, and at that 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.439 time we decided to have one joint account and have 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.920 our separate bank accounts as well. And as time were 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.439 on throughout the marriage, I realized so that was probably 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:10.400 not the best decision. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.760 It wasn't the best decision because I. 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:20.360 Think it allows for a lack of accountability, and I 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:24.080 think it in Chris's case where he has a problem 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:26.680 with spending, it's just enabling him. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.520 You say he has a problem with spending. Was that 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.640 something you knew about when you were dating. 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.320 Yeah, a little bit. We always talked about, oh, I 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:36.760 need this, I need this, especially when it comes to 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:42.640 anything techie. He needs un speaker or something for his computer. 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.320 I would come over and see, Oh, like, I didn't 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.680 realize that you had this. Oh, I just thought it, 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.159 and so I knew that it was definitely different from 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.960 the way that I was, but I didn't see it 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:56.919 being a major issue. 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:57.680 At that point. 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.520 You say you noticed that he got something new, but 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.160 were you guys looking at the bills together every month? 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.720 Basically we hated bills and through our joint account, and 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.280 then we each had our individual bank account separate. And 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.400 so his spending, which I found out later, was on 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:16.680 his individual account and his credit cards. 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.600 How did you discover the credit card debt? 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.280 So in the months prior to me finding out about 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.879 his finances, I felt that it was really important that 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.680 we merged finances completely. I just felt like we were 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:36.680 married and it was time to work together versus being 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:39.680