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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married

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Speaker 2: couple who came to us after Anna, who is pregnant

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Speaker 2: with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying

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Speaker 2: to her.

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Speaker 3: The thing that hurt me about it was when I

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Speaker 3: see tons and tons of messages to his younal co

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Speaker 3: worker and asking things like hollis your day. That was

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Speaker 3: really hurtful to me, because that's something he should be

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Speaker 3: asking his wife first.

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Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It is not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in partworn ful, and we may edit it

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Speaker 1: for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All

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Speaker 1: names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Hi Laurie, Hi guy. So what's in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 2: Today we have a letter about secrets in a marriage,

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Speaker 2: and here it is deotherapists. I am five months pregnant

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Speaker 2: with my first child, a time that should be flooded

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Speaker 2: with warm and bubbly emotions, junk food cravings, and trips

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Speaker 2: to the local baby clothing store. However, the past several

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Speaker 2: days have been filled with crippling anxiety and an emotional

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Speaker 2: pain I didn't know existed. You see, I recently found

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Speaker 2: out that Chris, my husband of one year, is a

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Speaker 2: pathological liar and, in my mind, an adulterer. Unbeknownst to me,

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Speaker 2: Chris had been meticulously hiding over twenty thousand dollars in

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Speaker 2: credit card debt. How he did this I still haven't

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Speaker 2: a clue, since we had multiple in depth conversations around

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Speaker 2: finances before and during our marriage. To make matters worse,

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Speaker 2: several charges to these credit cards were for an online

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Speaker 2: adult subscription website, the deepest cut of all. While he

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Speaker 2: claims he considered this to be only porn, in my

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Speaker 2: mind he had an affair. These charges were dated during

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Speaker 2: the months in which we were trying to conceive our child.

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Speaker 2: Despite everything, I love him deeply and desperately want this

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Speaker 2: to work. However, the emotional pain and betrayal I feel

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Speaker 2: is unbearable. I recently set strict boundaries with accountability and

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Speaker 2: set up our first couple's therapy appointment. But what if

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Speaker 2: this isn't enough? How on earth do I survive this? Sincerely, Anna, I.

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Speaker 1: Really feel for Anna because pregnancy is a time when

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Speaker 1: people often feel a heightened sense of wanting to feel

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Speaker 1: safe and protected, and there were things going on that

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Speaker 1: she didn't know about, and now she is feeling very unsafe,

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Speaker 1: and so I think this is really less about whether

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Speaker 1: it's money or infidelity and more about deception and honesty

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Speaker 1: in the marriage.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I'm really glad that today both of

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Speaker 2: them will be on the show because this is not

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Speaker 2: something that she can repair alone. They need to repair

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Speaker 2: it together, and they have a time concern because once

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Speaker 2: that baby comes, their hands are going to be full.

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Speaker 2: It's going to demand so much of their attention. They

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Speaker 2: really want to try and get in a better place

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Speaker 2: than they are right now, certainly, so it's really important

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Speaker 2: that they're both here today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's go talk to them and find out

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Speaker 1: what's going on. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

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Speaker 2: Dear Therapist.

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Speaker 1: Hi Anna, Hi Chris, Well, thank you.

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Speaker 2: For coming on our show.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for helping us.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to start by hearing a little bit about

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Speaker 1: how long you've been together, how you met a little

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Speaker 1: bit of the history of the marriage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so we've been married just over one year. We

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Speaker 3: have been together for I would say over three years now.

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Speaker 3: We actually met online, and up.

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Speaker 5: Until marriage, our relationship was very good, very positive.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it was very healthy. And then once

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Speaker 3: we got married, certain things kind of happened gradually that

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Speaker 3: started to affect our relationship.

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Speaker 1: What kind of things started to happen.

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Speaker 3: So I noticed that I would catch Chris in white

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Speaker 3: wise every now and then, and at first I just

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Speaker 3: disregarded that. I know that everyone tells a why at

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Speaker 3: some point and there why.

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Speaker 2: What's an example of a white lie, what you call

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Speaker 2: a white line.

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Speaker 3: Just talking about social media? It'd be like, oh, who

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Speaker 3: are you talking to? And he would say someone that

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Speaker 3: he was not talking to and I would be like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: that's not what you said. Little things like that that

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Speaker 3: just kind of broke down trust very gradually.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask why you were asking him who he

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Speaker 1: was talking to? Did you suspect that maybe he was

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Speaker 1: talking to someone that he shouldn't be.

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Speaker 3: Yes and no. At that point I trusted him, But

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Speaker 3: I feel like I have trust issues in general, and

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Speaker 3: so that voice in the back of my head was

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Speaker 3: always just wanting to get that confirmation.

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Speaker 1: Why was it that you only started asking once you

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Speaker 1: were married, but for the first three years of the

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Speaker 1: relationship those trust issues didn't really come up for you

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Speaker 1: in the same way, I.

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Speaker 3: Think, if I'm being perfectly honest, I think once we

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Speaker 3: were married, we were more comfortable with each other, and

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Speaker 3: that pressure of keeping the peace, I guess was gone,

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Speaker 3: and so I felt like I was more able to

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Speaker 3: ask those questions and put a little bit more pressure

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Speaker 3: on him in that way.

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Speaker 2: Chris, can you tell us about your perspective just about

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Speaker 2: the dating and the relationship, how it proceeded, and then

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Speaker 2: we can get to these exchanges at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the marriage about the white lives.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, dating started off long distance, and it was good.

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Speaker 4: Like with my company, I was able to travel on weekends,

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Speaker 4: and if I couldn't travel that weekend, then she would

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Speaker 4: come down and see me. And it worked really well.

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Speaker 4: And then I think just kind of as we got married,

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Speaker 4: I kind of lost a little bit of that I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't say spark, but it just lost a little bit

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Speaker 4: of the excitement of seeing each other on the weekends

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Speaker 4: or something to look forward to. And I got pretty

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Speaker 4: engrossed with work because COVID hit, and then it just

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Speaker 4: kind of seemed like a little bit of a downward

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Speaker 4: spiral around then.

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Speaker 2: In what sense a downward spiral.

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Speaker 4: I was working extra, so I was tired. Anna was

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Speaker 4: working extra, she was tired when we came home. It

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Speaker 4: wasn't like the fun, let's go on dates. It was

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Speaker 4: the hey, let's watch a TV show. And it kind

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Speaker 4: of a little bit got I would say, to the

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Speaker 4: point of like a daily regimen that was pretty repetitive.

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Speaker 2: Were you voicing any of that is that something you

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Speaker 2: brought up in conversation to Anna, saying, Hey, we're falling

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Speaker 2: into a bit of a rout here, let's shake things up.

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Speaker 4: Not really. I've always been kind of a to myself

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Speaker 4: kind of person, like I had never sought therapy or

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Speaker 4: anything like that until just a couple of weeks ago

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Speaker 4: and we started doing all of our healing. I was

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Speaker 4: a pretty self internalized person, and I would go through

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Speaker 4: ebbs and flows of emotions of being frustrated and not

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Speaker 4: wanting to talk to her about it, but not really

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Speaker 4: talking to anybody about it.

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Speaker 2: Why not wanted to talk to Anna about it?

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Speaker 4: I've kind of been a lone wolf for a pretty

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Speaker 4: majority of my life, and so talking to other people

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Speaker 4: about my problems was never really anything that I did.

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Speaker 4: My parents really don't talk to each other about their

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Speaker 4: problems either. They just kind of do their own thing.

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Speaker 4: So I guess a lot of it would be learned,

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Speaker 4: but just kind of what I was comfortable with.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that both of you were having these thoughts

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Speaker 1: and feelings that you weren't voicing to each other even

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Speaker 1: before the marriage. For you, Anna, you have this history

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Speaker 1: which would like to hear a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: about not trusting the person that you're with, And I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Chris, did you know that about her?

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Speaker 4: I know that she's had some pretty rough relationships in

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Speaker 4: the past, Like there were passing conversations or comments that

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Speaker 4: kind of led to the understanding that there were a

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Speaker 4: little bit of trust issues, but I didn't think anything

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Speaker 4: really significant.

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Speaker 1: So you were both afraid to show up for each other. Anna,

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Speaker 1: you didn't tell him that this is a big issue

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Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, for three years, and if you had suspicions,

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Speaker 1: you kind of said, well, I don't want to rock

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Speaker 1: the boat. And you, Chris, when things started to feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit repetitive or mundane and you missed the

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Speaker 1: excitement of earlier in the relationship, you didn't say to her, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this is how I'm feeling. What can we do? So

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Speaker 1: when you got married, was that the first time that

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Speaker 1: you were in the same city together or did you

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Speaker 1: have any time in the same city before you got married.

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Speaker 4: We, at my request, moved in together right around when

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Speaker 4: we got engaged, which is about a year earlier. But

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Speaker 4: it was still kind of new and exciting, and we

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Speaker 4: hadn't really formed any of those patterns on the day

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Speaker 4: to day.

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Speaker 2: And Chris, you said that you are a lone wolf.

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Speaker 2: But have you been in relationships before and is this

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Speaker 2: something that has happened in previous relationships where you feel

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Speaker 2: a certain either frustration or something's not going the way

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Speaker 2: you want, but you have trouble working with the person

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Speaker 2: you're with to figure it out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I've had one serious relationship outside of Anna. It

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Speaker 4: lasts just over one year, and it was a pretty

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Speaker 4: unhealthy last six or seven months. It was constant arguments.

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Speaker 4: She would just find little things to argue about and

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Speaker 4: then just try to blow them up to see what

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Speaker 4: I would do.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what those sounded like? Those arguments?

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Speaker 4: I mean anything from like a comment that I'd said,

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Speaker 4: or you know, if I missed a turn going somewhere.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you name it. We've argued about it all.

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Speaker 1: Did you end that relationship or did she?

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: Did you try to talk to her about how criticized

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Speaker 1: you felt in the relationship?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was it was a constant conversation.

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Speaker 4: I pushed that relationship probably a little further than I

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Speaker 4: ought to have because it was my first serious relationship.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to grow the most that I could in

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Speaker 4: a relationship, so I would be ready for something serious

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Speaker 4: again after that relationship. And so I took it upon

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Speaker 4: myself to just try to be patient and understanding and

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Speaker 4: listen and just kind of grow some of those even

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Speaker 4: though it was in an unhealthy environment.

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Speaker 2: So in that relationship, would you bring up that you

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Speaker 2: felt criticized and that you were concerned about the volume

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Speaker 2: of the criticism, or would you just respond when you

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Speaker 2: were criticized.

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Speaker 4: I would bring it up outside of it on occasion,

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Speaker 4: but more often than not, it would end up leading

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Speaker 4: to another argument of some sort, and so I just

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Speaker 4: kind of stopped.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything that happened in your relationship with Anna,

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Speaker 1: even early on when things were exciting that you didn't

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Speaker 1: bring up because you were sort of trained not to,

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Speaker 1: or that if you did, it would lead to an argument.

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Speaker 4: I would get upset at like stupid little things. But

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Speaker 4: I kind of just kept it to myself because I

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Speaker 4: figured it was more advantageous to learn how to live

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Speaker 4: with certain things. And that's something I still do that

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Speaker 4: I need to work on.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious about how you observed that when you

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Speaker 1: were growing up, You said that your parents never talked

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Speaker 1: about things, So what would you do with that as

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Speaker 1: a kid, and what was going on that you felt

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Speaker 1: they should be talking about.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I feel like they should have talked about everything.

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Speaker 4: My dad was a construction worker, so he'd be gone

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Speaker 4: from five o'clock in the morning till seven or eight

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Speaker 4: o'clock at night every day, and then he'd come home

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Speaker 4: and it was basically the dad show. It's, you know,

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Speaker 4: do what he wants to do when he wants to

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Speaker 4: do it. My mom has used me as like a

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Speaker 4: crutch for complaining about things that she's unhappy with. I

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Speaker 4: feel like that those frustrations, for example, could have been

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Speaker 4: brought up to.

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Speaker 1: My dad, so instead of talking directly to your dad,

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Speaker 1: she would talk to you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever say to her, Hey, I wish you'd

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Speaker 1: talk to dad about this instead of me.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes? Definitely more, I'd say in the last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: You were saying earlier that the instinct was not to

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Speaker 2: talk to Anna if there was something that was frustrating.

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Speaker 2: Did you notice that that was the same strategy your

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Speaker 2: mom had of just like deal with the frustrations or

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Speaker 2: find someone to vent them too, but not actually direct

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Speaker 2: them to the person that's causing them.

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Speaker 4: A little bit like early on, I would talk to

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Speaker 4: my mom about it just to vent it out, because

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Speaker 4: that's you know, she used me I could. I felt

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Speaker 4: like I could talk to her and she would generally

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Speaker 4: give me some pretty decent wisdom, I would say, But

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Speaker 4: I felt like it was kind of like a do

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Speaker 4: as I say, not as I do type of thing.

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Speaker 2: And I had mentioned these white lies that were going

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Speaker 2: on at the beginning of the marriage, and I was

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Speaker 2: curious about your take on that. What was going on

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Speaker 2: for you? What was that about for you?

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Speaker 4: At least on our social media we it had kind

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Speaker 4: of like you're doing your thing, I'm doing my thing,

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Speaker 4: and it would just be like, you know who you

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Speaker 4: talked to you about, nobody or coworker or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they were co workers, a lot of them were female.

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Speaker 3: And there were a couple of times where I went

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Speaker 3: through his messages and discovered a ton of messages with

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Speaker 3: a particular coworker, and so that was obviously not something

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Speaker 3: that was disclosed to me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I didn't really think anything of it in

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Speaker 4: the moment as being inappropriate because it's just platonic conversation

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Speaker 4: with coworkers.

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Speaker 1: Ka He's saying. It was all platonic conversations. So is

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Speaker 1: there something that came up for you where you didn't

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Speaker 1: believe that, or do you have some philosophy that he

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be friends with women, which is something different from

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Speaker 1: him lying or deceiving you.

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Speaker 3: I would say the thing that hurt me about it

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Speaker 3: was at this time, he was in training for his

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Speaker 3: new job and I barely heard from him, which is

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Speaker 3: understandable because they're very busy. However, when I see tons

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Speaker 3: and tons of messages to a female co worker who

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Speaker 3: he's in training with and asking things like house your day,

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Speaker 3: that was really hurtful to me because that's something he

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Speaker 3: should be asking his wife, you know, how's your day,

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Speaker 3: what's going on? And instead of asking me those things,

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Speaker 3: he was reaching out to his female co worker. And so,

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Speaker 3: while yes it was platonic technically for me, it was

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Speaker 3: still hurtful because it felt like there was some sort

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Speaker 3: of emotional void being filled by talking to her.

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Speaker 1: And can you tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 1: history with trust issues and when those first started coming

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Speaker 1: up in your life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say it definitely started with my childhood

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Speaker 3: and in particular my mother. She had a very troubled

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Speaker 3: past of her own and didn't really have the tools

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Speaker 3: to be like a good mother. And she is very

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Speaker 3: dishonest and manipulative in a lot of ways. And there

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Speaker 3: was one particular instance where about ten years ago, she

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Speaker 3: basically spent my dad's retirement for one k and didn't

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Speaker 3: tell him, and he found out about it and they

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Speaker 3: were separated for a while because of it. And it's

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Speaker 3: just the fact that she wouldn't come forward and admit

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Speaker 3: it even after being caught. She just really has a

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Speaker 3: very big issue with being honest. And that's something that's

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Speaker 3: really really affected me.

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Speaker 1: So both your mom and your husband spent money in

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Speaker 1: secret it? Yeah, can I ask cow old you are?

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Speaker 3: I'm thirty two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this happened in your early twenties. Growing up,

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Speaker 1: you had a sense that she wasn't honest. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a lot that she hid from my dad.

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Speaker 3: For example, she would take us to the store and

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Speaker 3: you know, buy us ice cream or something, and she'd

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Speaker 3: be like, Okay, don't tell dad. There was one particular

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Speaker 3: instance where I got into trouble with my dad and

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Speaker 3: she said that she disagreed with him and that she

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Speaker 3: would have my back and talk to him, and when

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Speaker 3: it came down to it, she said nothing, and so

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Speaker 3: I was punished for it. Little things like that that

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Speaker 3: broke my trust even as a little kid.

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Speaker 1: And then you also experienced some dishonesty in other relationships.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was one other relationship that was very toxic,

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Speaker 3: lasted on and off for about four and a half years.

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Speaker 2: He was just.

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Speaker 3: Very dishonest. He would just constantly lie about everything. He

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Speaker 3: lied about being on the basketball team at school, he

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00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,120
Speaker 3: ed about his family, He lighted about just how much

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Speaker 3: money he made, just everything he think of. He ed

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Speaker 3: about What.

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Speaker 1: Would you do when you discovered these lies? Would you

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Speaker 1: confront him?

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Speaker 3: I did, and it did not go all. He would

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Speaker 3: essentially gaslight me and make me feel like it is crazy,

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Speaker 3: and you know, come up with some excuse and somehow

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Speaker 3: ended up putting the blame onto me, and it just

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Speaker 3: kind of made me go further into my shell a

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Speaker 3: little bit.

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Speaker 1: When you first got together with Chris, what made you

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Speaker 1: feel like you could or could not trust him? How

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Speaker 1: did you feel going into that when it came to trust.

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Speaker 3: Originally I felt really good about it. I know he's

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Speaker 3: a good person. Even now, he's just a good guy.

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Speaker 3: He has a good book ethic, he has good morals,

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Speaker 3: he has a stronalogy with his family. You know, he

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Speaker 3: showed up and he using to show up. He called

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Speaker 3: and said he was going to call. All the things

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Speaker 3: said I've been looking for. He was it. And so yeah,

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Speaker 3: in the beginning, it is really good.

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Speaker 2: Did he know about this history that you've had with

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Speaker 2: trust and especially the history with your mom and the

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Speaker 2: money of the four oh one K that she was spending.

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Speaker 3: Probably not in detail, but I feel like I definitely

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Speaker 3: mentioned it at least.

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Speaker 2: You know, a couple of times you said you had

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Speaker 2: conversations even before the marriage about finances and such. Tell

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Speaker 2: me about those conversations.

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Speaker 3: We did premarital counseling. We just did of course that

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Speaker 3: was online, and we learned that it's really important to

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Speaker 3: talk our finances beforehand, and so we did. We talked

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Speaker 3: about what that looked like for us, and at that

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Speaker 3: time we decided to have one joint account and have

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Speaker 3: our separate bank accounts as well. And as time were

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Speaker 3: on throughout the marriage, I realized so that was probably

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Speaker 3: not the best decision.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the best decision because I.

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Speaker 3: Think it allows for a lack of accountability, and I

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Speaker 3: think it in Chris's case where he has a problem

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Speaker 3: with spending, it's just enabling him.

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Speaker 1: You say he has a problem with spending. Was that

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Speaker 1: something you knew about when you were dating.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit. We always talked about, oh, I

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Speaker 3: need this, I need this, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 3: anything techie. He needs un speaker or something for his computer.

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Speaker 3: I would come over and see, Oh, like, I didn't

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Speaker 3: realize that you had this. Oh, I just thought it,

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Speaker 3: and so I knew that it was definitely different from

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Speaker 3: the way that I was, but I didn't see it

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Speaker 3: being a major issue.

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Speaker 4: At that point.

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Speaker 1: You say you noticed that he got something new, but

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Speaker 1: were you guys looking at the bills together every month?

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Speaker 3: Basically we hated bills and through our joint account, and

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Speaker 3: then we each had our individual bank account separate. And

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Speaker 3: so his spending, which I found out later, was on

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Speaker 3: his individual account and his credit cards.

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Speaker 2: How did you discover the credit card debt?

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Speaker 3: So in the months prior to me finding out about

398
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Speaker 3: his finances, I felt that it was really important that

399
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Speaker 3: we merged finances completely. I just felt like we were

400
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Speaker 3: married and it was time to work together versus being

401
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Speaker 3: separate all the time, and I noticed more and more

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Speaker 3: hesitancy from him, and each time I would bring it

403
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Speaker 3: up and there was hesitancy. I felt like something was off.

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Speaker 3: So about a month ago, it was the week of

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Speaker 3: our one year anniversary, I said to him, Okay, if

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Speaker 3: you don't want to merge finances right now.

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Speaker 4: It's okay.

408
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Speaker 3: Just let me at least see your individual account so

409
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Speaker 3: I can help you budget because we were a little

410
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Speaker 3: bit tight and on the trinity we've currently and so

411
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Speaker 3: you know, we truly need to budget. And then he

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Speaker 3: completely rejects that.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever say to him, why are you not

414
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Speaker 1: wanting to merge our finances?

415
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely asked that question. We don't need to

416
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Speaker 3: do it right now, we can wait until later.

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Speaker 1: That's not an answer to why, that's an answer to

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Speaker 1: what he wants. It's perfectly legitimate if somebody wants to wait,

419
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Speaker 1: but he's not explaining to you why he wants to wait.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like you didn't follow up and say

421
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Speaker 1: I'm not understanding why this is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I've been in training with my new job,

423
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Speaker 4: I've been on a reduced pay, so it was nerve

424
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Speaker 4: wracking for me. One to get found and have my

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Speaker 4: financials exposed. But at the other side, it's like I

426
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Speaker 4: was nervous with our type budget as it was, because

427
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Speaker 4: I'm paying you a credit card off as well to

428
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Speaker 4: migrate everything from one bank account to another because I

429
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Speaker 4: didn't want something that it missed. And then all of

430
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Speaker 4: a sudden, We've got late fees on top of credit

431
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Speaker 4: card fees on top of bills. To me, it was

432
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Speaker 4: just very daunting. So my excuse was wait until I

433
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Speaker 4: get off my training pay and everything kind of settles out,

434
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Speaker 4: because it was just kind of like a financial rocky place.

435
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Speaker 1: That was the reason you gave to her. Let me

436
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Speaker 1: get off the training pay. You didn't tell her the truth.

437
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: You told her a partial truth exactly.

438
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Speaker 2: Chris. When did the spending start on your end with

439
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: this credit card that? What was your thinking about it,

440
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Speaker 2: given that you had had these conversations with Anna about

441
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Speaker 2: finances and she conveyed that she was concerned about it.

442
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Speaker 4: Shortly after we got married, we bought a house, and

443
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Speaker 4: then I just kind of started buying things for the house,

444
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Speaker 4: buying things to go camping gas. I mean, you name it.

445
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 4: Some stuff I would tell her about, some stuff I

446
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: wouldn't hope she doesn't notice because they're maybe a little

447
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: more expensive.

448
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 2: But what was your thinking that? Okay, I have this

449
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: deal with her about being responsible financially, but I'm going

450
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: to get these things anyway and hope she doesn't notice,

451
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: and then I'll cover them at some point.

452
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 4: I really didn't give it a whole lot of thought.

453
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I was covering my bills. I was covering

454
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: my portion of our utilities and mortgage and whatnot. So

455
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: I didn't really, in my mind presume it was much

456
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: of a problem other than you know, I'm on reduced pay,

457
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 4: so hey, things are getting tight. But I was still

458
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 4: covering my half of everything, So I just figured that,

459
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 4: you know, it's okay, I'll pay it off eventually.

460
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: But you're aware that this has heard that as well, right.

461
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I get that.

462
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: Now.

463
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: In the time, my brain really wasn't thinking that way.

464
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 4: It was pretty selfish. It really wasn't putting her into

465
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 4: consideration at all.

466
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: It seems like you've had this habit of overspending for

467
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: a long time, even before you met Anna.

468
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been on and off over my adult life.

469
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: Do you remember when that started and do you have

470
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: any sense of what that's about.

471
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 4: Oh, as soon as I moved out of my parents' house,

472
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: it was, hey, I can get things that my parents

473
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 4: maybe wouldn't let me get, or I can do whatever

474
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 4: I want, and there was really no accountability. And then

475
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 4: after the first time, I was probably eighteen or nineteen,

476
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 4: when my parents found out that I had spent two

477
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 4: or three thousand dollars, they bailed me out and I

478
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 4: paid them back basically just to get away from the

479
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 4: interest rates. And then, you know, six or seven years later,

480
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 4: same situation.

481
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 1: When this happened twice, When your parents bailed you out

482
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: the first time and then they bailed you out a

483
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: second time, what were you thinking about in terms of

484
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: maybe I have a problem with this, or maybe this

485
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: is compensating for something that I don't have in my life.

486
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: Did you ever think I need to figure this out?

487
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: Did it wear you at all?

488
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a thought in my mind, just you know, hey,

489
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 4: is this really a problem? Why am I reverting to

490
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: these kind of spinning habits? But I honestly just kind

491
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: of shrugged it off as just being young and impulsive

492
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 4: and there was something that was going to need to

493
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 4: grow out of.

494
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: Did your parents talk to you about it. Did they say,

495
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: what's going on here? This is the second time we

496
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: bailed you out.

497
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 4: There was a little bit of a conversation there. It

498
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 4: was more of a disappointment and hey, what the heck

499
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: are you doing? Pull your head out and figure it out.

500
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 4: And that was pretty much the extent of it. It

501
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 4: was more of a hey, you screwed up, not a

502
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: why are you doing this? Can we help you?

503
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: Anna? Did you know about these two incidents before you

504
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: got married?

505
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: He had mentioned before that he had gotten into some

506
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 3: credit card debt at one point, and he didn't go

507
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: into detail about it.

508
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: Chris, you mentioned earlier when you were getting into credit

509
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: card debt after the first year of marriage, that you're

510
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: thinking about it was, well, you know, it's my stuff

511
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: and I'll deal with it. And you weren't thinking. You

512
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: said about the fact that actually you're creating that that's

513
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,239
Speaker 2: shared equally with Anna, and that she doesn't even know

514
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: about this step that you're creating. And so you were

515
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: really in solo thinking rather than in partnership kind of thinking.

516
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering in what other ways in early phases

517
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: of the marriage or even the relationship, were you too

518
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: much on a solo track rather than a true conship.

519
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: Whether that's something that characterized your thinking in other aspects

520
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: of the relationship, it.

521
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: Seems like, yeah, it was more like and I'm dating

522
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: this person, not a we are one type of thing.

523
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: You've said. The two options are we are separate people

524
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: or we are one. And I think that that's a

525
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: way of thinking about this that might make you feel

526
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: a little bit trapped because you are not one. Even

527
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: when you are married, you are still going to be

528
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: two separate people who happen to have a commitment to

529
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: each other, and part of that commitment is honesty, accountability.

530
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that you're one person. And I

531
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: don't know where you got that message that somehow, when

532
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: you get married you are one. Do you have any

533
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: sense of that?

534
00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: Again, my representation of marriage, which are two completely separate

535
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: people that don't really talk to each other, really don't

536
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 4: express frustrations and feeling towards each other. It's just kind

537
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 4: of two people that cohabitate and raise kids. I don't

538
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 4: necessarily think it's we are one, but I definitely think

539
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 4: it's we are together.

540
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: On everything, we're a team.

541
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: In the last few months, i've really formed an understanding

542
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 4: of the team of marriage versus the representation that I've

543
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 4: grown up with.

544
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: When I asked Chris whether the other aspects in the

545
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: relationship in which he was thinking as an individual rather

546
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: than as a member of a partnership you were not

547
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: in your head? What did you see in terms of

548
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: other aspects in which you weren't forming a full partnership,

549
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: but that Chris was still operating as a solo player.

550
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: The sciences were a big one. Also, just little things

551
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: like he would have conversations with his mom about our

552
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: relationship that I felt wasn't appropriate. He would share things

553
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: like that that shouldn't be shared in my.

554
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: Opinion, What kind of things was he sharing with her?

555
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 3: There was one instance where he talked about my health

556
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: issues and those are very personal to me, and I

557
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: asked him not to share any with anyone, and he

558
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: shared with his mom.

559
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: Chris, that sounds so much like what your mom did

560
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: by talking to you instead of your father, knowing that

561
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: Anna didn't want that shared. Did you at the time

562
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: that you were talking to your mom think I really

563
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: shouldn't be telling my mom this, but I'm doing it

564
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: anyway because I need to.

565
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 4: Or what was the thinking, So my mom is a nurse,

566
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 4: and so it kind of crossed my mom, like, Hey,

567
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 4: she doesn't want me to talk about this, but I'm concerned.

568
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 4: And this is the person that I go to to

569
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 4: talk about things i'm worried or concerned about who Growing up,

570
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 4: I've always been able to talk to her about medical

571
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 4: things on a very professional style level, and so when

572
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 4: she had issues medically, that's the person that I felt

573
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 4: like I could go talk to.

574
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: I think the conversation that didn't happen was Anna, I

575
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: really love you and I care about you, and I'm

576
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: really anxious about this medical stuff that's going on with you,

577
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: and I feel like I don't have enough information for

578
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: me to know if I should be worried or not worried,

579
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: and I'd like to get a straight answer from someone

580
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: I trust. She might still have said no, but I

581
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: think what was missing was the emotional piece, was the

582
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm so worried about you. I care about you. But

583
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: at least then Anna could know that you're worried and

584
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: could maybe find a way to get the information that

585
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: in a way that makes her comfort. Maybe it's not

586
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: from your mom, maybe it's a different person, but you

587
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: still get the information, So you see what happens when

588
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: you're not communicating what you're feeling with each other.

589
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think another part that you learned from your

590
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: parents growing up was that even if you do talk

591
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: about something, if you disagree, I can't push back and say, actually,

592
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: this is something that's really troubling me. So this idea

593
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: that Laurie's saying, you can have that kind of discussion.

594
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: Is it clear to you even today that you can

595
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: have that kind of discussion that when you talk with Anna,

596
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: it's not just to hear her opinion and then okay,

597
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: I have to do that, but you get to push

598
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: back if something's important, to voice your side of things

599
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: in a very clear way.

600
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: I would say that I'm clear about it and working

601
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: on expressing that when I feel it.

602
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: So right now, Anna's pregnant and I'm wondering what that

603
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: has been like for both of you. Is this when

604
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: the spending on the porn sites all started or was

605
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: this going on before that?

606
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: It was going on before.

607
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: Before you got married.

608
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 4: It was kind of when we got married and we

609
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 4: moved in together, and our work takes us away, both

610
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 4: of us for a couple of days at a time,

611
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 4: I was feeling disconnected from our relationship when she's traveling

612
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 4: or when I'm traveling. When we come back from work,

613
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 4: it's we're both tired, we don't really want to talk

614
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 4: right away, And so I think that I was very

615
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 4: internalizing a lot of that in unhealthy ways.

616
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: So again, this was something where you didn't say to her,

617
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: I'm feeling really disconnected when we're both away from each other.

618
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: Exactly did you both decide that you wanted to go

619
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: ahead and try to get pregnant at the same time

620
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: or how was this talked about.

621
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 4: It was a conversation, quite a few conversations. We both

622
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 4: kind of decided like, hey, like we're ready to start

623
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 4: taking the next step and building a family.

624
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: And what was it like finding out that you're pregnant?

625
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: Well, first I thought there was something seriously wrong and happened.

626
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: She came outside yelling Chris, Chris, Chris and crying, and

627
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 4: then she showed me a pregnancy stick when she found out,

628
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 4: and we both just kind of sat there. I was

629
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 4: elated and excited. She was balling her eyes out.

630
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: Balling your eyes out because you were excited.

631
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had been trying for at that point about

632
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 3: six or seven months, there have been a lot of disappointment,

633
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 3: all of anxiety, and so to have that positive pregnancy

634
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: test was just very very special.

635
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: How did you both deal with that period when you

636
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: were trying to get pregnant and it wasn't happening. That

637
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: can be incredibly stressful both talking about how you felt.

638
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 4: No, not really.

639
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: I was showing how emotional I was about it, and

640
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 3: Chris was just kind of internal these saying things, and

641
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: to me, it felt like he maybe didn't care about

642
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 3: it as much as I did, or it wasn't hurting

643
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 3: as much as I was. But I think he just

644
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 3: kept it inside.

645
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: When you were feeling very strongly and you saw him

646
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: you thought not feeling as strongly. Did you ask him

647
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: how he's feeling? Did you express that you were feeling

648
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: very disappointed?

649
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: I expressed how I was feeling. I don't think I

650
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: asked him how he was feeling, and that's something that

651
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 3: I should have done. I think I was just so

652
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: overwhelmed with emotions that I feel like I was being

653
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: selfish in that respect. I didn't ask him how he

654
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: was feeling.

655
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 2: And Chris, was that the time that you were starting

656
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 2: to use porn? Because as it might have been related

657
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: to the stress that you were feeling.

658
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to reassure Anna that, you know,

659
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: God has a plan and it's kind of how I've

660
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 4: always lived my life is God's got a plan for us,

661
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 4: and things happen when they're meant to happen. I may

662
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 4: not understand why things are the way they are, but

663
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 4: I feel like in retrospect down the road, they tend

664
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 4: to make more sense. I was trying to let her know, Hey,

665
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 4: you know, it didn't happen this month, but you know

666
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: God's got a plan and it's going to happen when

667
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 4: it's meant to happen for us. And then I felt

668
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 4: like that wasn't received. You know, she'd be very frustrated

669
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 4: looking back, understandably, but I felt like I was just

670
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 4: pushed off emotionally.

671
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: This is why I pointed out that phrase that you

672
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: used we are one, because you're not one. And here's

673
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: an example of Anna feeling a certain way. She's feeling disappointment,

674
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 1: she's feeling anxiety. She's worried what if I never get pregnant?

675
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: What does this mean? She's futurizing the whole thing, and

676
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: she needs some support, and you're saying to her, God

677
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: has a plan, It'll all work out, which is very

678
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: different from how she was feeling. And at the same time,

679
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: she wasn't really inquiring about how you were feeling and

680
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: what was going on with you. So both of you

681
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: were in your own silos and feeling very isolated and

682
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: very alone and very disconnected as you're going through this

683
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: experience together. And that's layered on top of all of

684
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: the other stuff that we've been talking about that you're

685
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: bringing with you around your own histories, and so I

686
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: can see how you guys got further away from each

687
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: other instead of closer during this time that you weren't

688
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: able to offer the other person any kind of support

689
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: that you attempted to, but instead she heard that as

690
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: I am so alone here, my husband has no idea

691
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: what I am experiencing, and you're feeling like, well, I'm

692
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: trying to reassure her, but she's rejecting this.

693
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. And on top of that, when she was feeling

694
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 4: upset and her and alone, I was even pushed off

695
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 4: further because she would have a very short temper. She

696
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 4: obviously is hurting, and I could figure out how or

697
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: what I can do to help. I just felt like

698
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 4: I was kind of the problem.

699
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: But Chris, do you see the connection between how your

700
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: reassurance to Anna, God has a plan and all work out.

701
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: It didn't land well with her, but it wasn't sufficient

702
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: for you either, because it didn't resolve your tension and

703
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: your distance that you felt. And do you see the

704
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 2: connection between those times and you turning to porn for

705
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 2: comfort or for distraction, because that happened at the same time.

706
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you can see your use of POM

707
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: as a way to manage emotions and manage frustrations and

708
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: manage distance.

709
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like a kind of barrier from real life,

710
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 4: just kind of removing myself from a situation and you

711
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 4: being distracted.

712
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: And that is much more likely to happen when you

713
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: don't know how else to deal with the situation.

714
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

715
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: Can you tell Anna now how you were feeling during

716
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: that time.

717
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 4: I felt like I was being pushed away by the

718
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 4: way that she was being frustrated. And the best way

719
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 4: I can describe it is very snappy and short, because

720
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 4: at the time we were also dealing with some of

721
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 4: other issues as far as our relationship with talking to

722
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 4: other people still.

723
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: Talking to other people still meaning what.

724
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: Coworker from my old job, just talking to people online,

725
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 4: and I would turn into video games as well as

726
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: as finding some sort of like way to just kind

727
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 4: of get away from everything, and ended up snapchatting once. Right, rather,

728
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 4: I gave my snapchat out online and somebody had messaged

729
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 4: me back the next day. I just snapped them back

730
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 4: and said, Hey, I screwed up. I'm married. No, but

731
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 4: that definitely drove a big wedge in between us and

732
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 4: kind of really really kicked off the shortness with me.

733
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: How did Anna find out about that? And then how

734
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: did you too try to repair the trust after that?

735
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 4: We were camping and it was just on my phone

736
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 4: on Snapchat, She's like, hey, who is this person? And

737
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: we talked about it, but I didn't feel like she

738
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 4: was ever really able or willing to try and rebuild trust.

739
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: You said you were just trying to move on. What

740
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: did that mean to you to move on when the

741
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: trust had been broken? And how did you imagine it

742
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: would get repaired? What did move on look like to you?

743
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 4: Move on to me looked like, you know, understanding what

744
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 4: I had done wrong and removing that temptation and us

745
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 4: being able to kind of how we are now being

746
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 4: able to talk to each other about Hey, this is

747
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 4: why I'm frustrated you did this. Okay, well, I'm sorry.

748
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: Much healthier conversations, and I never felt like any of

749
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: those conversations were really willing to be had at the time.

750
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: And when that happened, what did you need in order

751
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: to start to rebuild some trust with Chris?

752
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: I think I needed the full truth, And at that

753
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 3: point it was hard to tell if I was getting

754
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 3: the full truth.

755
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: Why did you think you weren't getting the full truth?

756
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: Was he telling part of the story and you had

757
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: to keep asking follow up questions?

758
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I kept having to kind of dig deeper

759
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 3: and like, okay, you know, explain this a little bit

760
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: more because it's not making sense. Also paired with the

761
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: fact that in previous times it's been the same thing

762
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: where I feel like I have to pull it out

763
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: of him in order to get the full truth.

764
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: Tell Chris right now what you would have needed at

765
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 1: the time.

766
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: I needed you to come forward before getting caught and

767
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: let me know, Hey, I messed up and this is

768
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: what happened. Since that was not the case after the fact,

769
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: I needed to do to fully own what you did

770
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 3: and ask me how it made me feel, because it

771
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: was incredibly hurtful, and at that point we had just

772
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: gotten married, and you know, it was devastating for me.

773
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: So when Chris is saying I tried to book about

774
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 2: it and see how she felt, but she didn't want

775
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: to have the conversation, I'm confused about how that played out.

776
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 3: I wanted to have the conversation, but I don't feel

777
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 3: like he was going about it the right way. In

778
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 3: my mind, it didn't seem like he really wanted to

779
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 3: take accountability for what had happened. I think he wanted

780
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 3: to just move on and for me to forgive him

781
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 3: and everything to go back to normal.

782
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: So the subtext that you heard when he's asking you

783
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: what's going on and how you're feeling is let's just

784
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 2: check the box here and just get they okay, Yeah,

785
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: things are fine, so I can take myself out of

786
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 2: the doghouse. You didn't feel that it was since enough.

787
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also needed him to just be patient with me,

788
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 3: because it's a process to move on from something like

789
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen overnight. When I needed time, I needed

790
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 3: time to heal from it well.

791
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: You voicing that that you needed more time.

792
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 3: Probably not in a great way. I was very angry,

793
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 3: and I probably was very short tempered and didn't ask

794
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: it in the right way.

795
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: I imagined that finding this out when you're newly married

796
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: must have brought up all kinds of questions for you,

797
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: specially given your history around trust. And then there had

798
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: been that earlier incident as well, And it sounds like

799
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: Chris wasn't asking about what this was like for you,

800
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: or wasn't very curious about it, probably because he was

801
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: scared and knew he had messed up and didn't want

802
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: it to have any catastrophic consequences for your marriage. Is

803
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: that right, Chris? And yet what happened was in order

804
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: to kind of protect the marriage, Chris, in your mind,

805
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: you ended up weakening the marriage because now Anna's walking

806
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: around feeling like you're not interested in my experience of this.

807
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: I am alone in all of these questions that I have.

808
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: Is our marriage going to make it? How do I

809
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: protect myself from this happening again? Can I ever trust

810
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: you again? What does this mean for us? We just

811
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: got married, and I have a feeling that until this

812
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: was discovered again with the debt and the porn that

813
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: it just kind of got swept under the rug that

814
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: this hasn't really been discussed. So what we want to

815
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: help you with today is how not to do that now.

816
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: And I think one conversation that we haven't had yet

817
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: today is this idea that you both might have different ideas.

818
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: So you don't have different ideas about honesty, Chris, you

819
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: haven't been able to uphold your own value around honesty, right, yeah,

820
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: but I think you might have different ideas about what

821
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: constitutes cheating or betrayal, for example, talking to that coworker

822
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: and saying, how is your day? If it truly was platonic?

823
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: And Chris, You'll have to be honest with us about this.

824
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: Was it truly platonic or was there maybe something going

825
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: on there?

826
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 4: Looking backwards, I could have been using it as an

827
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 4: emotional crutch to feel validated because we weren't effectively communicating.

828
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: And in terms of porn, Anna, you said, I consider

829
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: that infidelity not everybody does, and what matters is what

830
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: it means to the two of you. Can you both

831
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: talk about your feelings about what it means to be

832
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: in this relationship where you're not betraying the other person.

833
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: What are the boundaries? Have you ever had a real

834
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 1: specific conversation about that.

835
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: We did recently, and we agreed that for right now,

836
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: porn would have to go completely.

837
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: You say we agreed, and that's sort of an action,

838
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: But in terms of just how you both view what

839
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: it means to not betray your partner, what it means

840
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: to be loyal to your partner, it sounds like, Anna,

841
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: you have this idea that using porn is infidelity, and

842
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: Chris might not have that idea.

843
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

844
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 3: I think for me, the point where it reached infidelity

845
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: in my mind was the only fans piece you do

846
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 3: subscribe to these women, and that felt more personal to me.

847
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: Maybe it wasn't completely being unfaithful, but I certainly don't

848
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 3: feel like it was being faithful in our marriage.

849
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: It makes you uncomfortable, Yeah, and Chris, I have a

850
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: question fore you when and it says, yeah, we agreed

851
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: that the porn has to go. I just want to

852
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 2: check in with you. If you truly agree the poorn

853
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: has to go, that's one thing. If you don't truly agree,

854
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 2: but you just agreed to it, then that's when you're

855
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: still going to have the impulse to do it, and

856
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: you're going to have the impulst to do it when

857
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 2: you're feeling disconnected or when you're feeling a distance. So

858
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 2: I just want to get a sense of how much

859
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: you're on board with that.

860
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 4: I'm full on board with it. I really don't actually

861
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 4: need this. I can talk to her if I'm frustrated.

862
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 4: There's so many other ways to go about it rather

863
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 4: than trying to fill some sort of void with porn.

864
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: When you were on social media with that coworker and

865
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: you were saying, how's your and Anna said, I just

866
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: wanted him to ask me that. Do you know why

867
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: you weren't asking that?

868
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 4: I think that I would every once in a while,

869
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 4: but I feel like at the time there was a

870
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 4: lot of disconnect between us that that had just built

871
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: up over time.

872
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: And so when you feel disconnected, instead of coming closer,

873
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: you retreat, Yeah, instead of saying that we're disconnected. So

874
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: I want to see Anna, how are you? Let's reconnect

875
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 1: you go somewhere else.

876
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 4: I agree, And I think that we both kind of

877
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 4: do the same thing because it's like, I know when

878
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 4: she's feeling disconnected, I feel like she's very much pushing

879
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 4: me off, or like trying to push me away.

880
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: That's not when she saydn't disconnected, that's when she's feeding hood. Yeah,

881
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: those are very different. Yeah, you are correct.

882
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: When she's feeling disconnected, it sounds like she tries to

883
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: come toward you and then she doesn't get that and

884
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: then she feels hurt and then she retreats. And when

885
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: you are feeling disconnected, do you feel rejected? Do you

886
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: feel hurt? What do you feel?

887
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 4: I feel rejected for sure, and just lonely.

888
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: So you each are able to love one another because

889
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 2: we do get the sense that you love one another,

890
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 2: and yet you can each really hurt one another, and

891
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: you have not yet developed adequate tools to come to

892
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 2: would one another in those moments, to have discussions that

893
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: bring you closer, that breach the gap, and instead what

894
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: happens is something that typically makes you feel worse, each

895
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 2: of you in your own way.

896
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 4: Today, I have no problems with it at all. I

897
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 4: feel like since I've been ousted for financial spending in

898
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 4: my debt, that kind of broke down all of the

899
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: barriers that I have as far as constly trying to

900
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 4: hide things. It's miserable. We've saw a marriage counselor that

901
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 4: has been very good. I've also saw personal counseling that

902
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 4: helps me kind of deal with that. But I feel

903
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 4: like where we're at today, I have absolutely no problem

904
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 4: telling Anna, hey, you know, I'm feeling disconnected today, or hey,

905
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 4: you know, I'm just in an off mood and i'm

906
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 4: quiet today.

907
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good to hear. Anna. For you, though, since

908
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: you're dealing with mistrust at this time still, it might

909
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: feel even scarier than to be truly vulnerable and to

910
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: open up, because that's a trusting act to say to someone,

911
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 2: here's what I'm feeling, and here's where I'm hurting. So

912
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: where are you with that today?

913
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 3: I always say I'm trying really hard to be vulnerable

914
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: and to you know, be open and trust that he

915
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 3: is working on things and that he is willing to change.

916
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 3: It's still is hard. I'm still very hurt and it's

917
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: still raw, and you know, I'm also pregnant, and so

918
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 3: I have all these emotions and they get the best

919
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: of me, you know, every time and then, but I

920
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 3: would say I am trying to overcome that.

921
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: Do you feel that this time, as opposed to the

922
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: other times, that Chris is being fully accountable for deceiving

923
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: you and for the dishonesty I do.

924
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 3: We have merched finances and so we both have access

925
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 3: to seeing everything that's going on. I have all of

926
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 3: his passwords. We are bringing a baby into the world,

927
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,439
Speaker 3: and that has impacted him as well, and he knows

928
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 3: if I'm very serious, if the pattern of dishonesty and

929
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 3: deception continues, he will lose me as his wife and

930
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 3: that will change the time he gets to spend with

931
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 3: his daughter as well. So yeah, I mean, at this

932
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 3: point I do trust that he is serious about it,

933
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: but it's still hard.

934
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: What do you think you need from him in order

935
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: to rebuild the trust in a way that eventually, because

936
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: it's going to take time, eventually feels solid to you.

937
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing for me is when

938
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 3: he messes up, because you will, because no one is perfect.

939
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: What does that mean he messed us up? How do

940
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: you imagine if he looks up worn, or if he

941
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: spends you know more than he knows that he should

942
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 1: without talking to me first something like that.

943
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 3: It would be very helpful if he came to me

944
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 3: first before me finding out and saying, hey, I messed up.

945
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 3: This is what happened. Because that to me is so

946
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 3: so crucial. It's not waiting to get caught, to be

947
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: honest and do the right thing.

948
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: Thinking about is that Dynamica happens with his parents where

949
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: he went to them and said twice I messed up

950
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 1: to the tune of several thousand dollars and they said,

951
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: we will bail you out. And I wonder, Chris, if

952
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:18,479
Speaker 1: you imagine that if you go to Anna and say, hey,

953
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: I messed up, that she's going to be like your

954
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: parents and say, okay, well you know, I'll let it slide.

955
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: I'll be mad at you and it'll be unpleasant, but

956
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: nothing's really fundamentally going to change. And I wonder if

957
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: you really understand what the differences between what you've done

958
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: in the past when you've messed up, and what you

959
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: might do now in this adult marriage.

960
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 4: I think I do. I mean, there's a lot writing on.

961
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: My honesty right. But what I'm talking about is that

962
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: when you were honest with your parents, they bailed you out,

963
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: and so far Anna's bailed you out to her or

964
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: she's discovered things. But either way, what she's saying is

965
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: I need you to come to me. But I think

966
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: she's saying something more, which is not just I need

967
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: you to come to me, but that I'm not necessarily

968
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: going to bail you out.

969
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know she hasn't really necessarily bailed me out.

970
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 4: Well she's here, Yeah, you know, I don't expect her

971
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 4: to ever stay if any of this stuff continues, because

972
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 4: that's a lot to deal with from her perspective.

973
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: So what are you going to do to find healthier

974
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: ways to deal with these feelings of disconnection or loneliness

975
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: that won't be so harmful to your marriage.

976
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be more present in my actions right now,

977
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 4: not so passive and just like reacting how I react,

978
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 4: but like being conscious of how I'm reacting to things

979
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 4: and how I'm feeling in the moments, trying to hold

980
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 4: myself accountable.

981
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: How do you both feel at this point in the

982
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: conversation about where you are with trust and all of

983
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: the changes that are about to happen, and being able

984
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: to come closer together as opposed to farther apart.

985
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: I feel hopeful. It does concern me that in a

986
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 3: few months where going to be having a baby, and

987
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 3: there are a lot of stressors that come with that,

988
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 3: but I am hopeful we just need to keep reminding

989
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 3: each other to have those conversations.

990
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: Do you see your role in holding back as well?

991
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 4: I do.

992
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: I think I'm still struggling a little bit with all

993
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 3: these emotions and feeling very hurt, and it's hard for

994
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: me still to open up and be vulnerable. But I

995
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 3: do feel like I can do that now.

996
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: Can you tell him right now what all these emotions are.

997
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 3: I feel very very hurt by you. I feel the trade.

998
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 3: I feel like the vowels that Lee said on our

999
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 3: loving day weren't as important to you as they were

1000
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 3: to me. I'm very anxious and sad.

1001
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: I think the main theme here that encapsulates all of

1002
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: that is I don't feel safe. Yeah, Chris, what was

1003
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: going on for you as she was saying this? What

1004
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: goes on in your body when you hear this from her?

1005
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 4: It was heartbreaking?

1006
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: Say more about that.

1007
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 4: I want to, you know, be able to lean into

1008
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 4: hers as she needs to be able to lean into me.

1009
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 4: It's hurtful to know that I'm not a person that

1010
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 4: she can feel comfortable talking to about things.

1011
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 2: And I expressed a lot of concerns for the future.

1012
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 2: Could you respond to hann now and some response to

1013
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: the wardies that she has to her.

1014
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: I think that your concerns are completely valid. I've completely

1015
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 4: broken your trust multiple times and retreated from you when

1016
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 4: I'm hurting. I'm trying very very hard to be present

1017
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 4: and take steps to rebuild the trust that I've broken

1018
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 4: because I want to build a safe place for you.

1019
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: Are you hurting right now? You said you retreat when

1020
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: you're hurting. Are you hurting right now a little bit?

1021
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: Can you tell Anna about how you're hurting?

1022
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 4: It's just hard to hear that I've hurt you.

1023
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: Are you hurting also because you feel lonely?

1024
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 4: Not right now?

1025
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 1: To talking about this makes you feel less lonely.

1026
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really relieving being able to to talk to

1027
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 4: about it.

1028
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: Really tell me what the tears are about.

1029
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 4: It's just a release of emotion. It's just hard, you know,

1030
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 4: knowing that I've done these things to hurt her, and

1031
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 4: you know it hurts to hear it.

1032
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: I think the tears might also be related to what

1033
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: you said about It's a relief to be able to

1034
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: talk about this.

1035
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 4: Oh, it's a huge relief. When I told her about

1036
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 4: the fifteen thousand dollars in credit card debt. Being able

1037
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 4: to talk about it, like, I feel one hundred times

1038
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 4: better than I ever did trying to hide what I

1039
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 4: was doing, just because it's like it's out there, and

1040
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 4: that was like a huge pressure relief was taken off

1041
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 4: by expressing those things I was hiding.

1042
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 2: You know, Chris, it's so important to remember this because

1043
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 2: this is how you feel after you open up. This

1044
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: is how you feel after you're completely honest. You feel connected.

1045
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you feel hurt, but you feel connected. And

1046
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 2: the default that you have is to run away and

1047
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: increase the disconnection. And this feels very scary before you

1048
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 2: do it. This feels like this is going to make

1049
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 2: things worse. It's counterintuitive. It feels like owning what I

1050
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 2: really did and taking responsibility and really talking about that

1051
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 2: directly will just inflame. But this is what allows you

1052
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 2: to feel connected, and it's super important that you remember that.

1053
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 2: As painful as it is, it's the connection that you want. Yeah,

1054
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 2: and this is what helps Chris feel connected. What helps

1055
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 2: you feel connected, what's the most connected that you feel

1056
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 2: when you're talking, has to happen that helps you feel

1057
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 2: what Chris is feeling right now.

1058
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 3: I think just coming to me and expressing how he

1059
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: feels saying, you know, I'm sad or I'm hurt because

1060
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 3: of so and so. Just hearing him express his emotions like.

1061
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: That right now, are you feeling more connected to him

1062
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: as he's expressing these emotions. Yeah, Chris Andnana, we have

1063
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 2: some advice for you. The first part is we'd like

1064
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 2: you to have a monthly finance meeting. Find that time,

1065
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 2: put it in the schedule every month. Shouldn't take that

1066
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: long just to go over the bills. You should discuss

1067
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: a dollar amount above which you consult with one another

1068
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 2: before spending it below which you have the autonomy to

1069
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 2: do that. You might consider creating a budget together in

1070
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 2: that meeting so that you have even more accountability on finances.

1071
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: But if you have a monthly touch point on finances,

1072
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: which has been a sore spot, then you know you'll

1073
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 2: spend in can't get two out of control, Chris and

1074
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 2: and you'll have more eyes on what's going on, and

1075
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 2: it'll just create a certain regularity. So we'd like you

1076
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 2: to put that into the schedule and have the first

1077
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: one of those.

1078
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: This week, and this way too. It becomes a partnership

1079
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 1: that you're working together on the finances. That it's not

1080
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: one or the other or doing things separately and without

1081
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: the other's knowledge. The second thing is, we would like

1082
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 1: you to schedule a weekly feelings meeting. And I know

1083
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: that does not sound necessarily appealing to people who don't

1084
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: like to talk about their feelings, but we want it

1085
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: to be really fun and there's a structure to it,

1086
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: and it goes like this. You have thirty minutes total,

1087
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: so it will not go over thirty minutes because you

1088
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: will be very busy and you won't have time, and

1089
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: we want this to be something that feels realistic. You

1090
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: set a timer for five minutes. You flip a coin

1091
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: to see who goes first, and what you do in

1092
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: those five minutes. The person who goes first is you

1093
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: share where anything about your inner experience from that week

1094
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: that you would like the other person to know. It

1095
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 1: could be about the relationship, like when you did that

1096
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 1: it made me feel this, or I really liked when

1097
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: you did that that made me feel so good, or

1098
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: this thing is happening at work and I'm really stressed

1099
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: about it, or this is my reaction to the baby

1100
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: and I'm having trouble with parenting. Could be anything that's

1101
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: your five minutes. During that five minutes, the other person

1102
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: is listening. They are not talking, they are taking in

1103
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: this is the other person's experience, even if it's different

1104
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: from mine. And then set a timer for five minutes.

1105
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: Person gets to respond. How can you support that person?

1106
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: How do you want to respond to that person in

1107
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: a loving way that feels connecting for both of you.

1108
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: Next five minutes the other person who didn't get to talk,

1109
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: it's to talk about their inner experience, and then you

1110
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: switch again. You can do this just the once where

1111
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: each person gets their chance. So that's five five five

1112
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: five talking, listening, talking, listen, or you might want to

1113
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: keep repeating it through the thirty minutes, but at thirty

1114
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: minutes it's over, and hopefully you're talking about your feelings

1115
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: during the week too. But this makes sure that things

1116
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: don't get swept under the rug. If someone's feeling disconnected,

1117
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: they're not like, oh well, we're so busy, or the

1118
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: other person's stressed and I don't want to bring it up,

1119
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: and you should do it over. If you like having

1120
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: a glass of wine, if you like having dessert, if

1121
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: you want to take a walk, it should be fun

1122
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: and something that you both look forward to like a

1123
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: relief from everything else that's going on during the week.

1124
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 1: We get to come together and get support from each

1125
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: other and be together as a couple.

1126
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 2: Try very hard, Chris, especially not thoughts feelings, So make

1127
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:42,439
Speaker 2: sure you're talking about actual feelings, not thoughts, because those

1128
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: are different. And the last thing we'd like you to

1129
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 2: do is you'd like you to come up with a

1130
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 2: constitution of your marriage. And what that means is we'd

1131
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 2: like each of you to sit down and write a

1132
01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 2: list of things. We have two parts. Number one, what

1133
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: I expect of you, Chris, you would write Anna as

1134
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: my husband, and then after that, what my expectation of

1135
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 2: myself is as your wife. And we want you to

1136
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 2: do each of those separately and then come together again

1137
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 2: this week and read them to one another. That's the constitution,

1138
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 2: and give real thought to it, because this is the

1139
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 2: bedrock on which you'll be building the foundation. So make

1140
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 2: sure it's a bedrock that really speaks to you and

1141
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 2: that you've covered what you need and it's foundational.

1142
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons we want you to do

1143
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: that is because many people come into marriage and they

1144
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: don't talk about what their expectations are for the marriage.

1145
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: They use old models, they use fantasy, they use all

1146
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 1: kinds of things, and they never actually discuss with each

1147
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: other what do we want our marriage to look like,

1148
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 1: what do we expect from each other, and what do

1149
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: we expect from ourselves. And so when you have that,

1150
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: it provides both accountability and transparency.

1151
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 4: Sounds good, Yeah, and I kind of agree to you.

1152
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 4: It's like we didn't have those kind of talks and

1153
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 4: it was just kind of winging it in the marriage,

1154
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 4: and there was really no expectation of how this is

1155
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 4: going to go. And we've both been modeled to very

1156
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 4: different kinds of things for marriage, and.

1157
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: You're going to create your own unique experience of what

1158
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 1: you want your constitution to look like. And it should

1159
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: be a fun activity to really think about and do together. Exciting.

1160
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: It's looking toward the future. It's looking toward what we

1161
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: can be together, and this is what our expectations are

1162
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: in order to build that.

1163
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we look forward to hearing how this goes

1164
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 2: for you guys this week. That's really good.

1165
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 4: Sure, Yeah, thank you.

1166
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting with christ and Anna is that

1167
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 2: it's very clear that they care for each other, but

1168
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: there are some basic foundational aspects to their relationship that

1169
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: they never quite figured out, and that's what the task

1170
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 2: is before them now.

1171
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that these issues that have come up,

1172
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: not only in this relationship but in earlier relationships are

1173
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: things that sometimes people don't talk about and that come

1174
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 1: out once they're married. And I think that even though

1175
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 1: this is so distressing and painful to go through, the

1176
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 1: silver lining here is that it is forcing them to

1177
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: really consider what is the stuff we're bringing from our

1178
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: history into this relationship and what can we do to

1179
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: create the kind of relationship that we didn't have before

1180
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 1: but that we want mutually. And I'm so excited to

1181
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: see what they do with the Constitution because I think

1182
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 1: that these are the conversations that many people need to

1183
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: have that they never do until something forces it.

1184
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I ask so many couples whether they've had that

1185
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 2: conversation about setting expectations, What are the understandings they have

1186
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 2: about what their marriage should be and how it should

1187
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 2: be different from what they've seen around them. Very few

1188
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 2: couples have that conversation, and.

1189
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important that they're doing that at the

1190
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: same time that they're repairing this rupture, because it will

1191
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 1: really make them sit down and think very deeply about

1192
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: what they want and how to move forward.

1193
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 2: You're listening to DA Therapists. We'll be back after a

1194
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 2: short break.

1195
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 1: So, guy, we heard back from Anna and Chris and

1196
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:35,759
Speaker 1: let's hear how things went for them this week.

1197
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 4: Hey, Guan Laurie, we just wanted to check back in

1198
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 4: with you guys after working on our assignments. That's such

1199
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 4: you now everything's going.

1200
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 5: So we have been doing the weekly feelings check ins.

1201
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,840
Speaker 5: We feel like they were going very well. So it's

1202
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 5: been really nice that we are both able to talk

1203
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 5: uninterrupted about how a situation made us feel. We can

1204
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 5: do like we've been heard and we can use that

1205
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 5: to spark positive in constructive conversations. We also have incorporated

1206
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 5: those feelings check in into our most recent couple therapy session.

1207
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 5: I had a really positive discussion about how an argument

1208
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 5: that we had earlier that morning affected both of us,

1209
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 5: and I feel like that went really well.

1210
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 4: It's also been nice because it's allowed us to both

1211
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 4: feel like we've been heard and it's just been sparking

1212
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 4: really good conversation. We've also been doing the monthly financial meetings.

1213
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 4: Those are going really well. We've continued to discuss our

1214
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 4: boundaries and reevaluate them on a weekly basis. We currently

1215
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 4: have a whiteboard that we've set up in our living

1216
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 4: room and that allows us to show our monthly obligations

1217
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 4: and allow us to visualize and discuss what we both

1218
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,680
Speaker 4: have going on. So we were both a part of

1219
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 4: a single conversation instead of two separate parts, and so

1220
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 4: we're both on the same page about everything that's going

1221
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 4: on financially.

1222
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 5: As far as the constitutions for our marriage, so we've

1223
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 5: been working on those. We both do want the main

1224
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:11,719
Speaker 5: theme of this to be better together and just really

1225
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 5: show how working as a team is just better in

1226
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 5: so many ways.

1227
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 4: We just want to let you guys know that we

1228
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 4: really appreciate everything you guys have done to help us,

1229
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 4: and we're going to incorporate a lot of that stuff

1230
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 4: into our everyday life and set up some really good

1231
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:30,640
Speaker 4: foundational conversations that we're able to continue.

1232
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 2: What I really liked about that from an overview perspective

1233
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 2: is that these tasks were incorporated, as they said, into

1234
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 2: all kinds of aspects of their lives. They bought it

1235
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 2: into the couple's therapy. They have a whiteboard in the

1236
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 2: living room. They have these regular meetings set up, and

1237
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 2: so they're really trying to change their perspective on what

1238
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 2: their marriage is and what their couplehood is. And I

1239
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 2: love the theme they came up with Better Together as

1240
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 2: a guide for the constitution that they're working on.

1241
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: I think it's great that they're finally communicating because both

1242
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 1: of them had come into this relationship and this marriage

1243
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: with patterns around avoidance. So when he would get into

1244
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: debt when he was younger, things weren't really spoken about

1245
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: and he would try to self soothe in these other ways.

1246
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 1: And I think with her, she also didn't know how

1247
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: to have these conversations. So I think they did quite

1248
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 1: a bit. They really started opening up the lines of

1249
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 1: communication around finances, around their feelings, around what is our marriage.

1250
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 1: And I hope that when they continue to work on

1251
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: the constitution, that's going to take them even deeper with

1252
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: the communication and also with the accountability.

1253
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 2: Just one thing I want to highlight is sometimes we

1254
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 2: make points with couples that they really need to make

1255
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 2: a course correction, and we don't often say what the

1256
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 2: size of the correction needs to be, but sometimes it

1257
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:56,360
Speaker 2: needs to be big and when I'm hearing that they

1258
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 2: went from having the secretive credit card debt where things

1259
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,640
Speaker 2: are all handled in private and in secret, to whiteboard

1260
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 2: in living room. That's a big correction. So that also

1261
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 2: is very heartening to me because when you really get

1262
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 2: that you need to make a big change, and you

1263
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 2: both get it and you're both doing it, it's a

1264
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 2: positive sign.

1265
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: And putting it in the living room where you can't

1266
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: really avoid it, so it's not like, oh, it's this

1267
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 1: file somewhere and we're never going to look at it.

1268
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: They're really saying, we are putting this right down in

1269
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,559
Speaker 1: the open, so we cannot be in denial about this.

1270
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: We are going to put everything there where we both

1271
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: can see it, and there are going to be no

1272
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 1: secrets anymore.

1273
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 2: And I agree with you about the constitution. It's a

1274
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,759
Speaker 2: work in progress, and I really hope that the principle

1275
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 2: of these changes will stay with them, which is we

1276
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 2: have to be a partnership.

1277
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: And part of that too is how do we resolve conflicts.

1278
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 1: I loved hearing that they were able to use the

1279
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,879
Speaker 1: feelings exercise to then bring that into the couple's therapy

1280
01:13:58,040 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: and then be able to talk about an argument that

1281
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 1: they had and both feel like that was a really

1282
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 1: productive conversation.

1283
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 2: For our listeners. That is something you can do as

1284
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 2: well when you find yourself getting into conflict. Pausing to

1285
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 2: express and listen without interruption to what the feelings are

1286
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 2: that are coming up for each person can be a

1287
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 2: very positive way to redirect the conversation into being more productive.

1288
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: When we think about what was going on here, there

1289
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: was this deceit, there was this betrayal, But really what

1290
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: it is is there are lots of unexpressed feelings that

1291
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: got people into a situation in the first place, and

1292
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 1: so I'm really glad they're dealing with what they actually

1293
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: need to deal with going forward.

1294
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 2: Next week, we're checking in with Lauren, who came to

1295
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 2: us feeling a lot of shame around her lack of

1296
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 2: sexual experience, to hear how she's doing. One year later,

1297
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 2: I actually met someone.

1298
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 6: I met a guy who I really really liked, and

1299
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 6: for the first time in my life, I was able

1300
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,759
Speaker 6: to actually tell this guy what I like, to bottom

1301
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 6: what I didn't like. You know, if he did something

1302
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 6: I didn't like, I brought it to his attention in

1303
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 6: a gentle way, out like pointing the finger. He actually

1304
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 6: appreciated how I communicated with them.

1305
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1306
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1307
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1308
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1309
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1310
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1311
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:35,640
Speaker 2: email us at Lauri and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1312
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington,

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Speaker 2: and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez,

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Speaker 2: and Silva Lifton and special thanks to our podcast fairy

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Speaker 2: Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you at

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Speaker 2: our next session. Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 4: Fish Food