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Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we

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Speaker 1: have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember were there.

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Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning

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Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them

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Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes

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Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions

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Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value

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Speaker 1: from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you

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Speaker 2: will love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks

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Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster.

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Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone,

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Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week, we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married

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Speaker 2: couple who came to us after Anna, who is pregnant

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Speaker 2: with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying

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Speaker 2: to her.

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Speaker 3: The thing that hurt me about it was when I

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Speaker 3: see tons and tons of messages to his female coworker

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Speaker 3: and asking things like, how was your day? That was

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Speaker 3: really hurtful to me because that's something he should be

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Speaker 3: asking his wife.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part or in full, and we may

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Speaker 1: edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lori.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Guy.

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Speaker 1: So what's in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 2: Today we have a letter about secrets in a marriage.

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Speaker 2: And here it is. Dear therapists, I am five months

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Speaker 2: pregnant with my first child, a time that should be

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Speaker 2: flooded with warm and bubbly emotions, junk food cravings, and

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Speaker 2: trips to the local baby clothing store. However, the past

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Speaker 2: several days have been filled with crippling anxiety and an

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Speaker 2: emotional pain I didn't know existed. You see, I recently

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Speaker 2: found out that Chris, my husband of one year, is

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Speaker 2: a pathological liar, and in my mind, an adulterer. Unbeknownst

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Speaker 2: to me, Chris had been meticulously hiding over $ 20, 000 in

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Speaker 2: credit card debt. How he did this, I still haven't

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Speaker 2: a clue, since we had multiple in-depth conversations around finances

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Speaker 2: before and during our marriage. To make matters worse, several

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Speaker 2: charges to these credit cards were for an online adult

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Speaker 2: subscription website, the deepest cut of all. While he claims

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Speaker 2: he considered this to be only porn, in my mind,

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Speaker 2: he had an affair. These charges were dated during the

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Speaker 2: months in which we were trying to conceive our child.

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Speaker 2: Despite everything, I love him deeply and desperately want this

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Speaker 2: to work. However, the emotional pain and betrayal I feel

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Speaker 2: is unbearable. I recently set strict boundaries with accountability and

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Speaker 2: set up our first couples therapy appointment. But what if

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Speaker 2: this isn't enough? How on earth do I survive this? Sincerely, Anna.

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Speaker 1: I really feel for Anna because pregnancy is a time

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Speaker 1: when people often feel a heightened sense of wanting to

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Speaker 1: feel safe and protected. And there were things going on

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Speaker 1: that she didn't know about. And now she is feeling

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Speaker 1: very unsafe. And so I think this is really less

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Speaker 1: about whether it's money or infidelity and more about deception

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Speaker 1: and honesty in the marriage.

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Speaker 2: I agree. And I'm really glad that today, both of

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Speaker 2: them will be on the show because this is not

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Speaker 2: something that she can repair alone. They need to repair

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Speaker 2: it together. And they have a time concern because once

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Speaker 2: that baby comes, their hands are going to be full.

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Speaker 2: It's going to demand so much of their attention. They

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Speaker 2: really want to try and get in a better place

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Speaker 2: than they are right now, certainly. So it's really important

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Speaker 2: that they're both here today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So let's go talk to them and find out what's

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Speaker 1: going on. You're listening to Dear Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Anna. Hi, Chris.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on our show.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to start by hearing a little bit about

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Speaker 1: how long you've been together, how you met, a little

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Speaker 1: bit of the history of the marriage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So we've been married just over one year.

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Speaker 4: We have been together for I would say over three.

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Speaker 3: Years now, we actually met online. And up until.

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Speaker 4: Marriage, our relationship was very good, very positive. I feel

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Speaker 4: like it was very healthy. And then once we got married,

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Speaker 4: certain things kind of happened gradually that started to affect

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Speaker 4: our relationship.

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Speaker 1: What kind of things started to happen?

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Speaker 3: So I noticed that I would catch Chris in the

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Speaker 3: white lies every now and then. And at first I

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Speaker 3: just disregarded it. I know that everyone tells a lie

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Speaker 3: at some point in their lives.

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Speaker 2: What's an example of a white lie, what you call

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Speaker 2: a white lie?

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Speaker 3: Just talking about social media. It'd be like, oh, who

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Speaker 3: are you talking to? And he would say someone that

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Speaker 3: he was not talking to. And I would be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's not what you said.

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Speaker 4: Little things like that, that just kind of broke down

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Speaker 4: trust very gradually.

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Speaker 1: And Can I ask why you were asking him who

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Speaker 1: he was talking to? Did you suspect that maybe he

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Speaker 1: was talking to someone that he shouldn't be?

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Speaker 3: Yes and no. At that point, I trusted him, but

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Speaker 3: I feel like I have trust issues in general. And

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Speaker 3: so that voice in the back of my head was

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Speaker 3: always just wanting to get that confirmation.

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Speaker 1: Why was it that you only started asking once you

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Speaker 1: were married, but for the first three years of the relationship,

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Speaker 1: those trust issues didn't really come up for you in

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Speaker 1: the same way?

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Speaker 4: I think if I'm being perfectly honest, I think once

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Speaker 4: we were married, we were more comfortable with each other

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Speaker 4: and that pressure of keeping the peace, I guess, was gone.

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Speaker 4: And so I felt like I was more able to

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Speaker 4: ask those questions and put a little bit more pressure

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Speaker 4: on him in that way.

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Speaker 2: Chris, can you tell us about your perspective, just about

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Speaker 2: the dating and the relationship, how it proceeded? And then

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Speaker 2: we can get to these exchanges at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the marriage about the white lies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Dating started off long distance and it was, it was good.

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Speaker 5: Like with my company, I was able to travel on

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Speaker 5: weekends and if I couldn't travel that weekend, then she

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Speaker 5: would come down and see me and it worked really well.

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Speaker 5: And then, I think just kind of as we got married,

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Speaker 5: I kind of lost a little bit of that. I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't say spark, but it just lost a little bit

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Speaker 5: of the excitement of seeing each other on the weekends

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Speaker 5: or something to look forward to. And I got pretty

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Speaker 5: engrossed with work because COVID hit. And then it just

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Speaker 5: kind of seemed like a little bit of a downward

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Speaker 5: spiral around then.

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Speaker 2: In what sense, a downward spiral?

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Speaker 5: I was working extra, so I was tired sometimes. Anna

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Speaker 5: was working extra. She was tired. When we came home,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't like the fun, let's go on dates. It

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Speaker 5: was the, hey, let's watch a TV show. And it

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Speaker 5: kind of a little bit got, I would say, to

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Speaker 5: the point of like a daily regimen that was pretty repetitive.

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Speaker 2: Were you voicing any of that? Is that something you

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Speaker 2: brought up in conversation to Anna saying, hey, we're falling

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Speaker 2: into a bit of a rut here. Let's shake things up.

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Speaker 5: Not really. I've always been kind of a to-myself kind

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Speaker 5: of person. I had never sought therapy or anything like

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Speaker 5: that until just a couple weeks ago when we started

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Speaker 5: doing all of our healing. I was a pretty self-internalized person,

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Speaker 5: and I would go through ebbs and flows of emotions

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Speaker 5: of being frustrated and not wanting to talk to her

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Speaker 5: about it. But not really talking to anybody about it.

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Speaker 2: Why not wanting to talk to Anna about it?

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Speaker 5: I've kind of been a lone wolf for a pretty

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Speaker 5: majority of my life. And so talking to other people

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Speaker 5: about my problems was never really anything that I did.

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Speaker 5: My parents really don't talk to each other about their

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Speaker 5: problems either. They just kind of do their own thing.

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Speaker 5: So I guess a lot of it would be learned,

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Speaker 5: but just kind of what I was comfortable with.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that both of you were having these thoughts

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Speaker 1: and feelings that you weren't voicing. to each other, even

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Speaker 1: before the marriage. For you, Anna, you have this history,

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Speaker 1: which we'd like to hear a little bit more about,

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Speaker 1: about not always trusting the person that you're with. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Chris, did you know that about her?

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Speaker 5: I know that she's had some pretty rough relationships in

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Speaker 5: the past. Like there were passing conversations or comments that

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Speaker 5: kind of led to the understanding that there were a

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Speaker 5: little bit of trust issues, but I didn't think anything

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Speaker 5: really significant.

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Speaker 1: So you were both afraid to show up for each other. Anna,

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Speaker 1: you didn't tell him that this is a big issue

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For three years.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And if you had suspicions, you kind of said, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to rock the boat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you, Chris, when things started to feel a little

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Speaker 1: bit repetitive or mundane and you missed the excitement of

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Speaker 1: earlier in the relationship, you didn't say to her, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is how I'm feeling. What can we do?

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Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 1: So when you got married, was that the first time

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Speaker 1: that you were in the same city together or did

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Speaker 1: you have any time in the same city before you

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Speaker 1: got married?

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Speaker 5: We, at my request, moved in together right around when

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Speaker 5: we got engaged, which is about a year earlier. But

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Speaker 5: it was still kind of new and exciting and we

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Speaker 5: hadn't really formed any of those patterns on the day-to-day yet.

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Speaker 2: And Chris, you said that You are a lone wolf,

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Speaker 2: but have you been in relationships before? And is this

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Speaker 2: something that has happened in previous relationships where you feel

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Speaker 2: a certain either frustration or something's not going the way

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Speaker 2: you want, but you have trouble working with the person

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Speaker 2: you're with to figure it out?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've had one serious relationship outside of Anna. It

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Speaker 5: lasts just over one year and it was a pretty

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Speaker 5: unhealthy last six or seven months. It was constant arguments.

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Speaker 5: She would just find little things to argue about and

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Speaker 5: then just try to blow them up to see what

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Speaker 5: I would do.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what those sounded like, those arguments?

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Speaker 5: I mean, anything from like a comment that I'd said or,

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Speaker 5: you know, if I missed a turn going somewhere. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you name it. We've argued about it all.

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Speaker 1: Did you end that relationship or did she?

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: Did you try to talk to her about how criticized

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Speaker 1: you felt in the relationship?

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it was a constant conversation. I pushed that

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Speaker 5: relationship probably a little further than I ought to have

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Speaker 5: because it was my first serious relationship. I wanted to

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Speaker 5: grow the most that I could in a relationship. So

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Speaker 5: I would be ready for something serious again after that relationship.

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Speaker 5: And so I took it upon myself to just try

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Speaker 5: to be patient and understanding and listen and just kind

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Speaker 5: of grow some of those skills, even though it was

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Speaker 5: in an unhealthy environment.

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Speaker 2: So in that relationship, would you bring up that you

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Speaker 2: felt criticized and that you were concerned about the volume

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Speaker 2: of the criticism or would you just respond when you

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Speaker 2: were criticized?

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Speaker 5: I would bring it up outside of it on occasion,

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Speaker 5: but more often than not, it would end up leading

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Speaker 5: to another argument of some sort. And so I just

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Speaker 5: kind of stopped.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything that happened in your relationship with Anna,

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Speaker 1: even early on when things were exciting, that you didn't

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Speaker 1: bring up because you were sort of trained not to,

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Speaker 1: or that if you did, it would lead to an argument?

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Speaker 2: I would....

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Speaker 5: Get upset at like stupid little things, but I kind

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Speaker 5: of just kept it to myself because I figured it

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Speaker 5: was more advantageous to learn how to live with certain things.

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Speaker 5: And that's something I still do that I need to

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Speaker 5: work on.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious about how you observed that when you

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Speaker 1: were growing up, you said that your parents never talked

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Speaker 1: about things. So what would you do with that as

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Speaker 1: a kid and what was going on that you felt

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Speaker 1: they should be talking about?

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Speaker 5: Oh, I feel like they should have talked about everything.

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Speaker 5: My dad was a construction worker. So he'd be gone

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Speaker 5: from five o'clock in the morning till seven or eight

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Speaker 5: o'clock at night every day. And then he'd come home

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Speaker 5: and it was basically the dad show. It's, you know,

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Speaker 5: do what he wants to do when he wants to

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Speaker 5: do it. My mom has used me as like a

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Speaker 5: crutch for complaining about things that she's unhappy with. I

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Speaker 5: feel like that those frustrations, for example, could have been

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Speaker 5: brought up to my dad.

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Speaker 1: So instead of talking directly to your dad, she would

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Speaker 1: talk to you? Yeah. Did you ever say to her, hey,

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Speaker 1: I wish you'd talk to dad about this instead of me?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes.

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Speaker 5: Definitely more, I'd say, in the last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: You were saying earlier that the instinct was not to

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Speaker 2: talk to Anna if there was something that was frustrating.

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Speaker 2: Did you notice that that was... the same strategy your

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Speaker 2: mom had of just like deal with the frustrations or

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Speaker 2: find someone to vent them to, but not actually direct

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Speaker 2: them to the person that's causing them.

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Speaker 5: A little bit like early on, I would talk to

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Speaker 5: my mom about it just to vent it out because that's,

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Speaker 5: you know, she used me. I could felt like I

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Speaker 5: could talk to her and she would generally give me

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Speaker 5: some pretty decent wisdom, I would say, but I felt

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Speaker 5: like it was kind of like a, do as I say,

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Speaker 5: not as I do type of thing.

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Speaker 2: And I had mentioned these white lies that were going

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Speaker 2: on at the beginning of the marriage. And I was

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Speaker 2: curious about your take on that. What was going on

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Speaker 2: for you? What was that about for you?

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Speaker 5: At least on our social media, we had kind of like,

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Speaker 5: you're doing your thing, I'm doing my thing. And it

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Speaker 5: would just be like, you know.

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Speaker 2: Who you talk to?

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Speaker 5: Oh, nobody or, you know, coworker or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they were coworkers. A lot of them were female.

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Speaker 3: And there were a couple of times where I went

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Speaker 3: through his messages and discovered a ton of messages with

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Speaker 3: a particular coworker. And so that was obviously not something

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Speaker 3: that was disclosed to me. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And I didn't really think anything of it in the

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Speaker 5: moment as being inappropriate because it's just platonic conversation with coworkers.

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Speaker 1: Anna, he's saying it was all platonic conversation. So is

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Speaker 1: there something that came up for you where you didn't

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Speaker 1: believe that? Or do you have some philosophy that he

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be friends with women, which is something different from

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Speaker 1: him lying or deceiving you?

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Speaker 3: I would say the thing that hurt me about it

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Speaker 3: was at this time he was in training for his

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Speaker 3: new job and I barely heard from him. which is

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Speaker 3: understandable because they're very busy. However, when I see tons

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Speaker 3: and tons of messages to his female coworker who he's

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Speaker 3: in training with and asking things like, how was your day?

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Speaker 3: That was really hurtful to me because that's something he

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Speaker 3: should be asking his wife, you know, how was your day?

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Speaker 3: What's going on? And instead of asking me those things,

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Speaker 3: he was reaching out to his female coworker. And so

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Speaker 3: while yes, it was platonic, technically for me, it was

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Speaker 3: still hurtful because it felt like there is some sort

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Speaker 3: of emotional void being filled by talking to her.

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Speaker 1: Anna, can you tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 1: history with trust issues and when those first started coming

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Speaker 1: up in your life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say it definitely started with my childhood

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Speaker 3: and in particular, my mother. She had a very troubled

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00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,459
Speaker 3: past of her own and didn't really have the tools

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Speaker 3: to be like a good mother and she is very

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Speaker 3: dishonest and manipulative in a lot of ways and there

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Speaker 3: was one particular instance where about 10 years ago she

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Speaker 3: basically spent my dad's retirement 401k and didn't tell him

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Speaker 3: and he found out about it and they were separated

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Speaker 3: for a while because of it And it's just the

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Speaker 3: fact that she wouldn't come forward and admit it even

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Speaker 3: after being caught. She just really has a very big

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Speaker 3: issue with being honest. And that's something that's really, really

349
00:20:12,499 --> 00:20:13,139
Speaker 3: affected me.

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Speaker 1: So both your mom and your husband spent money in secret.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you are?

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Speaker 3: I'm 32.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So this happened in your early twenties. Growing up, you

356
00:20:27,949 --> 00:20:30,979
Speaker 1: had a sense that she wasn't honest. Can you talk

357
00:20:30,999 --> 00:20:31,839
Speaker 1: a little bit about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a lot that she hid from my dad.

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Speaker 3: For example, she would take us to the store and,

360
00:20:39,399 --> 00:20:41,539
Speaker 3: you know, buy us ice cream or something. And she'd

361
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 3: be like, okay, don't tell dad. There was one particular

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Speaker 3: instance where I got into trouble with my dad and

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00:20:50,309 --> 00:20:53,189
Speaker 3: she said that she disagreed with him and that she

364
00:20:53,209 --> 00:20:55,809
Speaker 3: would have my back and talk to him. And when

365
00:20:55,869 --> 00:20:58,769
Speaker 3: it came down to it, she said nothing. And so

366
00:20:58,789 --> 00:21:02,949
Speaker 3: I was punished for it. Little things like that, that

367
00:21:02,989 --> 00:21:05,319
Speaker 3: broke my trust, even as a little kid.

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Speaker 1: And then you also experienced some dishonesty in other relationships.

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00:21:11,419 --> 00:21:16,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was one other relationship that was very toxic,

370
00:21:16,479 --> 00:21:18,759
Speaker 3: lasted on and off for about four and a half years.

371
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Speaker 3: He was just very dishonest. He would just constantly lie

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Speaker 3: about everything. He lied about being on the basketball team

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Speaker 3: at school. He lied about his family. He lied about

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00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:38,139
Speaker 3: just how much money he made. Just everything you think of,

375
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Speaker 3: he lied about.

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Speaker 1: What would you do when you discovered these lies? Would

377
00:21:42,949 --> 00:21:44,109
Speaker 1: you confront him?

378
00:21:44,829 --> 00:21:45,169
Speaker 2: I did.

379
00:21:45,189 --> 00:21:49,829
Speaker 3: And it did not go well. He would essentially gaslight

380
00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:53,139
Speaker 3: me and make me feel like I was crazy and,

381
00:21:53,349 --> 00:21:58,089
Speaker 3: you know, come up with some excuse and somehow end

382
00:21:58,189 --> 00:22:00,949
Speaker 3: up putting the blame onto me. And it just kind

383
00:22:01,049 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 3: of made me go further into my shell a little bit.

384
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Speaker 1: When you first got together with Chris, what made you

385
00:22:09,379 --> 00:22:12,259
Speaker 1: feel like you could or could not trust him? How

386
00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 1: did you feel going into that when it came to trust?

387
00:22:15,019 --> 00:22:17,969
Speaker 3: Originally, I felt really good about it. I know he's

388
00:22:17,989 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: a good person even now. He's just a good guy.

389
00:22:21,139 --> 00:22:24,839
Speaker 3: He has a good book ethic. He has good morals.

390
00:22:25,639 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 3: He has a strong relationship with his family. You know,

391
00:22:28,219 --> 00:22:30,339
Speaker 3: he showed up when he needed to show up. He

392
00:22:30,379 --> 00:22:32,499
Speaker 3: called me and said he was going to call all

393
00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:34,149
Speaker 3: the things I had been looking for.

394
00:22:34,169 --> 00:22:35,269
Speaker 2: He was it.

395
00:22:35,569 --> 00:22:38,629
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, in the beginning, it was really good.

396
00:22:39,529 --> 00:22:42,009
Speaker 2: Did he know about this history that you've had with

397
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:45,629
Speaker 2: trust and especially the history of with your mom and

398
00:22:45,929 --> 00:22:48,589
Speaker 2: the money of the 401k that she was spending?

399
00:22:48,609 --> 00:22:52,149
Speaker 3: Probably not in detail, but I feel like I definitely

400
00:22:52,189 --> 00:22:55,169
Speaker 3: mentioned it at least, you know, a couple of times.

401
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:58,509
Speaker 2: You said you had conversations even before the marriage about

402
00:22:58,569 --> 00:23:01,889
Speaker 2: finances and such. Tell me about those conversations.

403
00:23:01,909 --> 00:23:05,589
Speaker 3: We did premarital counseling. We just did a course that

404
00:23:05,629 --> 00:23:09,029
Speaker 3: was online and we learned that it's really important to

405
00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:12,079
Speaker 3: talk about your finances beforehand. And so we did, we

406
00:23:12,469 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 3: talked about what that looked like for us. And at

407
00:23:15,739 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 3: that time, we decided to have one joint account and

408
00:23:19,959 --> 00:23:24,299
Speaker 3: have our separate bank accounts as well. And as time

409
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,519
Speaker 3: wore on throughout the marriage, I realized that that was

410
00:23:27,679 --> 00:23:29,039
Speaker 3: probably not the best decision.

411
00:23:29,059 --> 00:23:31,499
Speaker 1: It wasn't the best decision because?

412
00:23:31,519 --> 00:23:38,819
Speaker 3: I think it allows for a lack of accountability. And

413
00:23:38,879 --> 00:23:42,739
Speaker 3: I think in Chris's case, where he has a problem

414
00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:45,279
Speaker 3: with spending, It's just enabling him.

415
00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: You say he has a problem with spending. Was that

416
00:23:48,199 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: something you knew about when you were dating?

417
00:23:50,659 --> 00:23:52,999
Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit. We always talked about, oh, I

418
00:23:53,019 --> 00:23:55,499
Speaker 3: need this. I need this. Especially when it comes to

419
00:23:55,619 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 3: anything techie, he needs a new speaker or something for

420
00:24:00,679 --> 00:24:03,279
Speaker 3: his computer. I would come over and see, oh, like

421
00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that you had this. Oh, I just

422
00:24:05,899 --> 00:24:09,219
Speaker 3: bought it. And so I knew that it was definitely

423
00:24:09,239 --> 00:24:13,239
Speaker 3: different from the way that I was. But I didn't

424
00:24:13,259 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 3: see it being a major issue at that point.

425
00:24:17,139 --> 00:24:19,219
Speaker 1: You say you noticed that he got something new, but

426
00:24:19,619 --> 00:24:21,759
Speaker 1: were you guys looking at the bills together every month?

427
00:24:22,649 --> 00:24:26,489
Speaker 3: Basically, we paid our bills through our joint account and

428
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:30,369
Speaker 3: we each had our individual bank account separate. And so

429
00:24:30,389 --> 00:24:33,369
Speaker 3: his spending, which I found out later, was on his

430
00:24:33,429 --> 00:24:35,249
Speaker 3: individual account and his credit cards.

431
00:24:35,969 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: How did you discover the credit card debt?

432
00:24:39,889 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 3: So in the months prior to me finding out about

433
00:24:42,919 --> 00:24:46,539
Speaker 3: his finances, I felt that it was really important that

434
00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:50,279
Speaker 3: we merged finances completely. I just felt like we were

435
00:24:50,299 --> 00:24:55,329
Speaker 3: married and it was time to work together versus being

436
00:24:55,389 --> 00:24:58,329
Speaker 3: separate all the time. And I noticed more and more

437
00:24:58,369 --> 00:25:01,549
Speaker 3: hesitancy from him. And each time I would bring it

438
00:25:01,689 --> 00:25:04,829
Speaker 3: up and there was hesitancy, I felt like something was off.

439
00:25:05,929 --> 00:25:09,419
Speaker 3: So yeah, About a month ago, it was the week

440
00:25:09,479 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 3: of our one-year anniversary. I said to him, okay, if

441
00:25:13,719 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: you don't want to merge finances right now, it's okay.

442
00:25:16,199 --> 00:25:19,459
Speaker 3: Just let me at least see your individual account so

443
00:25:19,499 --> 00:25:21,629
Speaker 3: I can help you budget because we were a little

444
00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:25,969
Speaker 3: bit tight. I'm on maternity leave currently. And so, you know,

445
00:25:26,009 --> 00:25:31,289
Speaker 3: we truly need to budget. And then he completely rejected that.

446
00:25:32,049 --> 00:25:36,319
Speaker 1: Did you ever say to him, why are you not

447
00:25:36,379 --> 00:25:37,979
Speaker 1: wanting to merge our finances.

448
00:25:38,939 --> 00:25:41,309
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely ask that question. We don't need to

449
00:25:41,349 --> 00:25:43,489
Speaker 3: do it right now. We can wait until later.

450
00:25:44,569 --> 00:25:46,829
Speaker 1: That's not an answer to why. That's an answer to

451
00:25:46,889 --> 00:25:50,849
Speaker 1: what he wants. It's perfectly legitimate if somebody wants to wait,

452
00:25:51,149 --> 00:25:54,599
Speaker 1: but he's not explaining to you why he wants to wait.

453
00:25:54,999 --> 00:25:58,839
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you didn't follow up and say,

454
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,539
Speaker 1: I'm not understanding why this is.

455
00:26:02,259 --> 00:26:02,419
Speaker 4: Yeah.

456
00:26:03,829 --> 00:26:06,009
Speaker 5: Because I've been in training with my new job, I've

457
00:26:06,029 --> 00:26:11,309
Speaker 5: been on a reduced pay. So it was nerve wracking

458
00:26:11,389 --> 00:26:17,319
Speaker 5: for me, one, to get found and have my financials exposed.

459
00:26:18,199 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 5: But at the other side, it's like I was nervous

460
00:26:21,339 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 5: with our tight budget as it was because I'm paying

461
00:26:25,499 --> 00:26:32,109
Speaker 5: a credit card off as well to migrate. Everything from

462
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:34,689
Speaker 5: like one bank account to another because I didn't want

463
00:26:35,849 --> 00:26:37,629
Speaker 5: something to get missed. And then all of a sudden

464
00:26:37,649 --> 00:26:40,409
Speaker 5: we've got late fees on top of credit card fees

465
00:26:40,469 --> 00:26:43,849
Speaker 5: on top of bills. To me, it was just very daunting.

466
00:26:44,749 --> 00:26:47,549
Speaker 5: So my excuse was wait till I get off my

467
00:26:47,629 --> 00:26:51,809
Speaker 5: training pay and everything kind of settles out because it

468
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,259
Speaker 5: was just kind of like a financial rocky place.

469
00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: That was the reason you gave to her. Let me

470
00:26:57,299 --> 00:26:59,519
Speaker 1: get off the training pay. You didn't tell her the truth.

471
00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:01,259
Speaker 1: You told her a partial truth.

472
00:27:01,619 --> 00:27:04,969
Speaker 2: Exactly. Chris, when did the spending start on your end

473
00:27:04,989 --> 00:27:08,069
Speaker 2: with this credit card debt? And what was your thinking

474
00:27:08,109 --> 00:27:10,829
Speaker 2: about it, given that you had had these conversations with

475
00:27:10,909 --> 00:27:14,429
Speaker 2: Anna about finances and she conveyed that she was concerned

476
00:27:14,469 --> 00:27:14,909
Speaker 2: about it?

477
00:27:15,729 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 5: Shortly after we got married, we bought a house.

478
00:27:19,619 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: And then I.

479
00:27:20,259 --> 00:27:23,279
Speaker 5: Just kind of started buying things for the house, buying

480
00:27:23,379 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 5: things to go camping, gas. I mean, you name it.

481
00:27:28,259 --> 00:27:30,349
Speaker 5: Some stuff I would tell her about, some stuff I wouldn't.

482
00:27:30,819 --> 00:27:33,979
Speaker 5: you know, wouldn't and hope she doesn't notice because they're

483
00:27:34,219 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 5: maybe a little more expensive.

484
00:27:36,059 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: But what was your thinking that, okay, I have this

485
00:27:38,439 --> 00:27:42,149
Speaker 2: deal with her about being responsible financially, but I'm going

486
00:27:42,169 --> 00:27:44,569
Speaker 2: to get these things anyway and hope she doesn't notice.

487
00:27:44,609 --> 00:27:46,809
Speaker 2: And then I'll cover them at some point.

488
00:27:47,129 --> 00:27:48,989
Speaker 5: I really didn't give it a whole lot of thought.

489
00:27:49,709 --> 00:27:52,149
Speaker 5: I mean, I was covering my bills. I was covering

490
00:27:52,189 --> 00:27:55,589
Speaker 5: my portion of our utilities and mortgage and whatnot. So

491
00:27:55,629 --> 00:27:59,419
Speaker 5: I didn't really, in my mind, presume it was much.

492
00:27:59,239 --> 00:27:59,779
Speaker 4: Of a problem.

493
00:28:00,669 --> 00:28:03,989
Speaker 5: Other than I'm on reduced pay, so hey, things are

494
00:28:04,009 --> 00:28:09,319
Speaker 5: getting tight. But I was still covering my half of everything,

495
00:28:09,379 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 5: so I just figured it's okay, I'll pay it off eventually.

496
00:28:13,539 --> 00:28:15,859
Speaker 2: But you're aware that this is her debt as well, right?

497
00:28:16,479 --> 00:28:16,859
Speaker 3: Yeah.

498
00:28:17,829 --> 00:28:23,069
Speaker 5: Yeah, I totally get that. Now, in the time, my

499
00:28:23,189 --> 00:28:26,869
Speaker 5: brain really wasn't thinking that way. It was pretty selfish.

500
00:28:28,229 --> 00:28:31,699
Speaker 5: It really wasn't. putting her into consideration at all.

501
00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:36,299
Speaker 1: It seems like you've had this habit of overspending for

502
00:28:36,349 --> 00:28:38,109
Speaker 1: a long time, even before you met Anna.

503
00:28:39,189 --> 00:28:39,329
Speaker 3: Yeah.

504
00:28:39,369 --> 00:28:42,709
Speaker 5: It's been on and off over my adult life.

505
00:28:43,649 --> 00:28:46,689
Speaker 1: Do you remember when that started and do you have

506
00:28:46,769 --> 00:28:48,389
Speaker 1: any sense of what that's about?

507
00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:50,869
Speaker 5: Oh, as soon as I moved out of my parents' house,

508
00:28:50,969 --> 00:28:53,629
Speaker 5: it was, Hey, I can get things that my parents

509
00:28:53,829 --> 00:28:56,089
Speaker 5: maybe wouldn't let me get, or I can do whatever

510
00:28:56,109 --> 00:29:00,179
Speaker 5: I want. And there was really no accountability. And then

511
00:29:00,339 --> 00:29:03,539
Speaker 5: after the first time I was probably 18 or 19,

512
00:29:03,539 --> 00:29:06,759
Speaker 5: when my parents found out that I had spent, you know,

513
00:29:06,779 --> 00:29:09,639
Speaker 5: two or $ 3, 000, they bailed me out and I paid

514
00:29:09,659 --> 00:29:12,419
Speaker 5: them back basically just to get away from the interest rates.

515
00:29:13,399 --> 00:29:18,039
Speaker 5: And then, you know, six or seven years later, same situation.

516
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,559
Speaker 1: When this happened twice, when your parents bailed you out

517
00:29:21,579 --> 00:29:22,839
Speaker 1: the first time and then they bailed you out a

518
00:29:22,859 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: second time, what were you thinking about in terms of

519
00:29:27,229 --> 00:29:29,269
Speaker 1: Maybe I have a problem with this, or maybe this

520
00:29:29,339 --> 00:29:32,199
Speaker 1: is compensating for something that I don't have in my life.

521
00:29:32,539 --> 00:29:34,679
Speaker 1: Did you ever think, I need to figure this out?

522
00:29:34,699 --> 00:29:35,899
Speaker 1: Did it worry you at all?

523
00:29:37,339 --> 00:29:42,579
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a thought in my mind. Just, you know, hey,

524
00:29:42,679 --> 00:29:46,919
Speaker 5: is this really a problem? Why am I reverting to

525
00:29:46,959 --> 00:29:52,369
Speaker 5: these kind of spending habits? But I honestly just kind

526
00:29:52,429 --> 00:29:56,969
Speaker 5: of shrugged it off as just being young and impulsive.

527
00:29:57,469 --> 00:29:58,969
Speaker 5: And it was something that I was going to need

528
00:29:58,989 --> 00:29:59,469
Speaker 5: to grow out of.

529
00:30:00,689 --> 00:30:03,349
Speaker 1: Did your parents talk to you about it? Did they say,

530
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:05,869
Speaker 1: what's going on here? This is the second time we've

531
00:30:06,089 --> 00:30:06,689
Speaker 1: bailed you out?

532
00:30:07,589 --> 00:30:09,449
Speaker 5: There was a little bit of a conversation there. It

533
00:30:09,589 --> 00:30:12,379
Speaker 5: was more of a disappointment and, hey, what the heck

534
00:30:12,419 --> 00:30:15,659
Speaker 5: are you doing? Pull your head out and figure it out.

535
00:30:16,959 --> 00:30:19,899
Speaker 5: And that was pretty much the extent of it. It

536
00:30:19,939 --> 00:30:23,339
Speaker 5: was more of a, hey, you screwed up, not a,

537
00:30:23,619 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 5: why are you doing this? Can we help you?

538
00:30:27,329 --> 00:30:30,549
Speaker 1: Anna, did you know about these two incidents before you

539
00:30:30,569 --> 00:30:30,989
Speaker 1: got married?

540
00:30:31,809 --> 00:30:36,019
Speaker 3: He had mentioned before that he had gotten into some

541
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:39,039
Speaker 3: credit card debt at one point, and he didn't go

542
00:30:39,059 --> 00:30:40,079
Speaker 3: into detail about it.

543
00:30:40,619 --> 00:30:44,249
Speaker 2: Chris, you mentioned earlier when you were getting into credit

544
00:30:44,269 --> 00:30:48,369
Speaker 2: card debt after the first year of marriage that you're

545
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:51,019
Speaker 2: thinking about it was, well you know it's my stuff

546
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,059
Speaker 2: and i'll deal with it and you weren't thinking you

547
00:30:54,079 --> 00:30:56,679
Speaker 2: said about the fact that actually you're creating debt that's

548
00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:59,889
Speaker 2: shared equally with anna and that she doesn't even know

549
00:30:59,939 --> 00:31:02,529
Speaker 2: about this debt that you're creating and so you were

550
00:31:02,569 --> 00:31:06,769
Speaker 2: really in solo thinking rather than in partnership kind of

551
00:31:06,809 --> 00:31:11,439
Speaker 2: thinking and i'm yeah Wondering in what other ways, early

552
00:31:11,549 --> 00:31:15,219
Speaker 2: phases of the marriage or even the relationship, were you

553
00:31:15,739 --> 00:31:19,159
Speaker 2: too much on a solo track rather than a true partnership?

554
00:31:19,979 --> 00:31:22,739
Speaker 2: Whether that's something that characterized your thinking in other aspects

555
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:23,619
Speaker 2: of the relationship.

556
00:31:24,679 --> 00:31:29,249
Speaker 5: It seems like, yeah, it was more like an I'm

557
00:31:29,349 --> 00:31:32,629
Speaker 5: dating this person, not a we are one type of thing.

558
00:31:33,849 --> 00:31:37,349
Speaker 1: You've said the two options are we are separate people

559
00:31:37,509 --> 00:31:41,499
Speaker 1: or we are one. And I think that that's a

560
00:31:42,859 --> 00:31:45,179
Speaker 1: way of thinking about this that might make you feel

561
00:31:45,199 --> 00:31:50,259
Speaker 1: a little bit trapped because you are not one. Even

562
00:31:50,299 --> 00:31:52,439
Speaker 1: when you are married, you are still going to be

563
00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:56,629
Speaker 1: two separate people who happen to have a commitment to

564
00:31:56,669 --> 00:32:02,649
Speaker 1: each other. And part of that commitment is honesty, accountability,

565
00:32:03,369 --> 00:32:05,769
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that you're one person. And I

566
00:32:06,009 --> 00:32:09,109
Speaker 1: don't know where you got that message that somehow when

567
00:32:09,129 --> 00:32:12,389
Speaker 1: you get married, you are one. Do you have any

568
00:32:12,469 --> 00:32:13,049
Speaker 1: sense of that?

569
00:32:13,909 --> 00:32:20,629
Speaker 5: Again, my representation of marriage are two completely separate people

570
00:32:20,649 --> 00:32:26,399
Speaker 5: that don't really talk to each other, really don't express

571
00:32:27,049 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 5: frustrations and feeling towards each other. It's just kind of

572
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:36,199
Speaker 5: two people that cohabitate and raise kids. I don't necessarily

573
00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:41,019
Speaker 5: think it's we are one, but I definitely think it's

574
00:32:41,629 --> 00:32:43,969
Speaker 5: we are together on everything.

575
00:32:44,329 --> 00:32:44,909
Speaker 1: We're a team.

576
00:32:46,029 --> 00:32:49,229
Speaker 5: In the last few months, I've really formed an understanding

577
00:32:49,389 --> 00:32:55,169
Speaker 5: of the team of marriage versus the representation that I've

578
00:32:55,209 --> 00:32:55,789
Speaker 5: grown up with.

579
00:32:57,069 --> 00:32:58,989
Speaker 2: When I asked Chris whether there were other aspects in

580
00:32:59,009 --> 00:33:02,159
Speaker 2: the relationship in which he was thinking as an individual

581
00:33:02,259 --> 00:33:05,559
Speaker 2: rather than as a member of a partnership, you were

582
00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:08,539
Speaker 2: nodding your head. What did you see in terms of

583
00:33:08,819 --> 00:33:13,079
Speaker 2: other aspects in which you weren't forming a full partnership

584
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 2: or that Chris was still operating as a solo player?

585
00:33:18,449 --> 00:33:21,569
Speaker 3: I think the finances were a big one. Also just

586
00:33:21,629 --> 00:33:25,129
Speaker 3: little things like he would have conversations with his mom

587
00:33:25,409 --> 00:33:29,989
Speaker 3: about our relationship that I felt wasn't appropriate. He would

588
00:33:30,829 --> 00:33:34,269
Speaker 3: share things like that that shouldn't be shared in my opinion.

589
00:33:34,969 --> 00:33:36,699
Speaker 1: What kinds of things was he sharing with her?

590
00:33:38,179 --> 00:33:44,559
Speaker 3: There was one instance where he talked about my health issues.

591
00:33:44,999 --> 00:33:47,999
Speaker 3: And those are very personal to me. And I asked

592
00:33:48,059 --> 00:33:52,639
Speaker 3: him not to share with anyone. And he shared with

593
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:53,219
Speaker 3: his mom.

594
00:33:54,959 --> 00:33:57,299
Speaker 1: Chris, that sounds so much like what your mom did

595
00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:02,339
Speaker 1: by talking to you instead of your father. Knowing that

596
00:34:02,459 --> 00:34:05,159
Speaker 1: Anna didn't want that shared. Did you, at the time

597
00:34:05,179 --> 00:34:06,979
Speaker 1: that you were talking to your mom, think, I really

598
00:34:06,999 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: shouldn't be telling my mom this, but I'm doing it

599
00:34:09,379 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: anyway because I need to? Or what was the thinking?

600
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:17,809
Speaker 5: So my mom is a nurse. And so it kind

601
00:34:17,849 --> 00:34:19,529
Speaker 5: of crossed my mind, like, hey, she doesn't want me

602
00:34:19,549 --> 00:34:23,249
Speaker 5: to talk about this, but I'm concerned. And this is

603
00:34:23,289 --> 00:34:25,749
Speaker 5: the person that I go to to talk about things

604
00:34:25,809 --> 00:34:31,299
Speaker 5: I'm worried or concerned about, who growing up, I've always

605
00:34:31,319 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 5: been able to talk to her about medical things on

606
00:34:33,379 --> 00:34:38,589
Speaker 5: a very professional style level. And so when she had

607
00:34:38,669 --> 00:34:41,589
Speaker 5: issues medically, that's the person that I felt like I

608
00:34:41,609 --> 00:34:42,369
Speaker 5: could go talk to.

609
00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:46,479
Speaker 1: I think the conversation that didn't happen was, Anna, I

610
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: really love you and I care about you. And I'm

611
00:34:48,419 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: really anxious about this medical stuff that's going on with you.

612
00:34:51,859 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: And I feel like I don't have enough information for

613
00:34:54,839 --> 00:34:57,149
Speaker 1: me to know if I should be worried or not worried.

614
00:34:57,539 --> 00:34:59,589
Speaker 1: And I'd like to get a straight answer from someone

615
00:34:59,689 --> 00:35:03,049
Speaker 1: I trust. She might still have said no, But I

616
00:35:03,089 --> 00:35:06,119
Speaker 1: think what was missing was the emotional piece was the,

617
00:35:06,729 --> 00:35:10,639
Speaker 1: I'm so worried about you. I care about you. But

618
00:35:10,699 --> 00:35:13,959
Speaker 1: at least then Anna could know that you're worried and

619
00:35:13,999 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: could maybe find a way to get the information that

620
00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:19,939
Speaker 1: in a way that makes her comfortable. Maybe it's not

621
00:35:19,979 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: from your mom. Maybe it's a different person, but you'd

622
00:35:22,399 --> 00:35:25,419
Speaker 1: still get the information. So you see what happens when

623
00:35:25,439 --> 00:35:29,299
Speaker 1: you're not communicating what you're feeling with each other.

624
00:35:29,319 --> 00:35:30,219
Speaker 5: Yeah.

625
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:35,159
Speaker 2: I think another part that you learned from your parents

626
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,519
Speaker 2: growing up was that even if you do talk about something,

627
00:35:38,579 --> 00:35:41,419
Speaker 2: if you disagree, I can't push back and say, actually,

628
00:35:41,439 --> 00:35:44,779
Speaker 2: this is something that's really troubling me. So this idea

629
00:35:44,819 --> 00:35:47,459
Speaker 2: that Laurie's saying you can have that kind of discussion,

630
00:35:48,139 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: is it clear to you even today that you can

631
00:35:50,339 --> 00:35:52,749
Speaker 2: have that kind of discussion that when you talk with Anna,

632
00:35:53,209 --> 00:35:55,249
Speaker 2: it's not just to hear her opinion and then, okay,

633
00:35:55,269 --> 00:35:58,589
Speaker 2: I have to do that, but you get to push

634
00:35:58,649 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: back if something's important, to voice your your side of

635
00:36:01,899 --> 00:36:03,789
Speaker 2: things in a very clear way.

636
00:36:03,809 --> 00:36:07,169
Speaker 5: I would say that I'm clear about it and working

637
00:36:07,609 --> 00:36:10,089
Speaker 5: on expressing that when I feel it.

638
00:36:10,809 --> 00:36:15,529
Speaker 1: So right now, Anna's pregnant. And I'm wondering what that

639
00:36:15,569 --> 00:36:18,309
Speaker 1: has been like for both of you. Is this when

640
00:36:18,529 --> 00:36:26,079
Speaker 1: the spending and the porn sites all started? Or was

641
00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:27,219
Speaker 1: this going on before that?

642
00:36:27,779 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 5: It was going on before.

643
00:36:28,859 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

644
00:36:30,529 --> 00:36:31,489
Speaker 1: Before you got married?

645
00:36:32,449 --> 00:36:36,569
Speaker 5: No, it was kind of when we got married and

646
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:42,099
Speaker 5: we moved in together and our work takes us away,

647
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:44,459
Speaker 5: both of us, for a couple of days at a time.

648
00:36:44,479 --> 00:36:50,679
Speaker 5: I was feeling disconnected from our relationship when she's traveling

649
00:36:51,659 --> 00:36:54,659
Speaker 5: or when I'm traveling. When we come back from work,

650
00:36:54,759 --> 00:36:58,039
Speaker 5: we're both tired. We don't really want to talk right away.

651
00:36:58,059 --> 00:37:02,449
Speaker 5: And so I think that I was very internalizing a

652
00:37:02,509 --> 00:37:03,969
Speaker 5: lot of that in unhealthy ways.

653
00:37:05,309 --> 00:37:07,519
Speaker 1: So again, this was something where you didn't say to her,

654
00:37:07,539 --> 00:37:10,999
Speaker 1: I'm feeling really disconnected when we're both away from each other.

655
00:37:11,879 --> 00:37:12,419
Speaker 2: Exactly.

656
00:37:12,799 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: Did you both decide that you wanted to go ahead

657
00:37:15,819 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: and try to get pregnant at the same time? Or

658
00:37:18,259 --> 00:37:20,019
Speaker 1: how was this talked about?

659
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:25,249
Speaker 5: It was a conversation, quite a few conversations. We both

660
00:37:25,289 --> 00:37:27,649
Speaker 5: kind of decided like, Hey, like we're ready to start

661
00:37:27,669 --> 00:37:29,189
Speaker 5: taking the next step and building a family.

662
00:37:30,379 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: And what was it like finding out that you're pregnant?

663
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 5: Well, first I thought there's something seriously wrong. It happened.

664
00:37:36,799 --> 00:37:40,339
Speaker 5: She came outside yelling, Chris, Chris, Chris, and crying. And

665
00:37:42,279 --> 00:37:45,959
Speaker 5: then she showed me a pregnancy stick when she found out.

666
00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:48,659
Speaker 5: And we both just kind of sat there. I was

667
00:37:48,999 --> 00:37:52,819
Speaker 5: elated and excited. She was bawling her eyes out.

668
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: Bawling your eyes out because you were excited.

669
00:37:58,029 --> 00:38:00,929
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had been trying for, at that point, about

670
00:38:01,309 --> 00:38:04,669
Speaker 3: six or seven months. There had been a lot of disappointment,

671
00:38:05,209 --> 00:38:07,469
Speaker 3: a lot of anxiety. And so to have that positive

672
00:38:07,489 --> 00:38:10,379
Speaker 3: pregnancy test was just very, very special.

673
00:38:11,279 --> 00:38:14,039
Speaker 1: How did you both deal with that period when you

674
00:38:14,059 --> 00:38:16,999
Speaker 1: were trying to get pregnant and it wasn't happening? That

675
00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:20,179
Speaker 1: can be incredibly stressful. Were you both talking about how

676
00:38:20,229 --> 00:38:20,679
Speaker 1: you felt?

677
00:38:22,289 --> 00:38:26,109
Speaker 3: No, not really. I was showing how emotional I was

678
00:38:26,189 --> 00:38:30,179
Speaker 3: about it. And Chris was just kind of internalizing things.

679
00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:34,139
Speaker 3: And to me, it felt like he maybe didn't care

680
00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:37,079
Speaker 3: about it as much as I did or wasn't hurting

681
00:38:37,179 --> 00:38:40,039
Speaker 3: as much as I was. But I think he just

682
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:41,059
Speaker 3: kept it inside.

683
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:44,829
Speaker 2: When you were feeling very strongly and you saw him,

684
00:38:45,389 --> 00:38:48,229
Speaker 2: you thought not feeling as strongly, did you ask him

685
00:38:48,269 --> 00:38:50,449
Speaker 2: how he's feeling? Did you express that you were feeling

686
00:38:51,029 --> 00:38:51,989
Speaker 2: very disappointed?

687
00:38:52,009 --> 00:38:55,189
Speaker 3: I expressed how I was feeling. I don't think I...

688
00:38:55,919 --> 00:38:58,099
Speaker 3: asked him how he was feeling and that's something that

689
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:00,959
Speaker 3: I should have done. I think I was just so

690
00:39:00,979 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: overwhelmed with emotions that I feel like I was being

691
00:39:03,879 --> 00:39:06,159
Speaker 3: selfish in that respect. I didn't ask him how he

692
00:39:06,199 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 3: was feeling.

693
00:39:07,859 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 2: And Chris, was that the time that you were starting

694
00:39:10,939 --> 00:39:15,389
Speaker 2: to use porn? Because as it might've been related to

695
00:39:15,429 --> 00:39:17,309
Speaker 2: the stress that you were feeling. Yeah.

696
00:39:18,029 --> 00:39:23,159
Speaker 5: I was trying to reassure Anna that, you know, God

697
00:39:23,219 --> 00:39:24,889
Speaker 5: has a plan. And it's kind of how I've always

698
00:39:24,929 --> 00:39:27,229
Speaker 5: lived my life is, is God's got a plan for

699
00:39:27,369 --> 00:39:31,129
Speaker 5: us and things happen when they're meant to happen. I

700
00:39:31,849 --> 00:39:35,029
Speaker 5: may not understand why things are the way they are,

701
00:39:35,569 --> 00:39:38,699
Speaker 5: but I feel like in, in retrospect down the road,

702
00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:42,619
Speaker 5: they tend to make more sense. I was trying to

703
00:39:42,839 --> 00:39:46,999
Speaker 5: let her know, Hey, you know, it didn't happen this month,

704
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:50,459
Speaker 5: but You know, God's got a plan and it's going

705
00:39:50,499 --> 00:39:53,539
Speaker 5: to happen when it's meant to happen for us. And

706
00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 5: then I felt like that wasn't received. You know, she'd

707
00:39:56,899 --> 00:40:02,579
Speaker 5: be very frustrated looking back, understandably. But I felt like

708
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:05,479
Speaker 5: I was just pushed off emotionally.

709
00:40:05,499 --> 00:40:11,749
Speaker 1: This is why I pointed out that phrase that you use,

710
00:40:12,169 --> 00:40:17,769
Speaker 1: we are one, because you're not one. And here's an

711
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:22,329
Speaker 1: example of Anna feeling a certain way. She's feeling disappointment.

712
00:40:22,369 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: She's feeling anxiety. She's worried. What if I never get pregnant?

713
00:40:25,399 --> 00:40:28,999
Speaker 1: What does this mean? She's futurizing the whole thing and

714
00:40:29,879 --> 00:40:34,789
Speaker 1: she needs some support. And you're saying to her, God

715
00:40:34,849 --> 00:40:38,309
Speaker 1: has a plan. It'll all work out, which is very

716
00:40:38,409 --> 00:40:41,349
Speaker 1: different from how she was feeling. And at the same time,

717
00:40:41,929 --> 00:40:44,729
Speaker 1: she wasn't really inquiring about how you were feeling and

718
00:40:44,749 --> 00:40:46,789
Speaker 1: what was going on with you. So both of you

719
00:40:46,829 --> 00:40:51,099
Speaker 1: were in your own silos and feeling very isolated and

720
00:40:51,139 --> 00:40:55,039
Speaker 1: very alone and very disconnected as you're going through this

721
00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:58,389
Speaker 1: experience together. And that's layered on top of all of

722
00:40:58,429 --> 00:41:00,289
Speaker 1: the other stuff that we've been talking about that you're

723
00:41:00,309 --> 00:41:03,809
Speaker 1: bringing with you around your own histories. And so I

724
00:41:03,849 --> 00:41:07,599
Speaker 1: can see how you guys got further away from each

725
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:11,159
Speaker 1: other instead of closer during this time that you weren't

726
00:41:11,279 --> 00:41:14,119
Speaker 1: able to offer the other person any kind of support

727
00:41:14,899 --> 00:41:19,019
Speaker 1: that you attempted to. But instead, she heard that as

728
00:41:19,229 --> 00:41:22,329
Speaker 1: I am so alone here, my husband has no idea

729
00:41:22,429 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: what I am experiencing. And you're feeling like, well, I'm

730
00:41:27,419 --> 00:41:29,679
Speaker 1: trying to reassure her, but she's rejecting this.

731
00:41:30,099 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

732
00:41:30,939 --> 00:41:34,109
Speaker 5: And on top of that, when she was feeling upset

733
00:41:34,209 --> 00:41:38,249
Speaker 5: and hurt and alone, I was even pushed off further

734
00:41:38,329 --> 00:41:41,989
Speaker 5: because she would have a very short temper. She obviously

735
00:41:42,029 --> 00:41:46,109
Speaker 5: is hurting and I couldn't figure out how or what

736
00:41:46,249 --> 00:41:48,969
Speaker 5: I can do to help. I just felt like I

737
00:41:49,229 --> 00:41:50,329
Speaker 5: was kind of the problem.

738
00:41:50,349 --> 00:41:54,409
Speaker 2: But Chris, do you see the connection between how you're

739
00:41:55,249 --> 00:41:58,259
Speaker 2: reassurance to Anna of God has a plan, it'll all

740
00:41:58,299 --> 00:42:01,139
Speaker 2: work out. It didn't land well with her, but it

741
00:42:01,179 --> 00:42:05,179
Speaker 2: wasn't sufficient for you either because it didn't resolve your

742
00:42:05,819 --> 00:42:09,459
Speaker 2: tension and your distance that you felt. And do you

743
00:42:09,479 --> 00:42:13,779
Speaker 2: see the connection between those times and you turning to

744
00:42:13,819 --> 00:42:19,429
Speaker 2: porn for comfort or for distraction? Because that happened at

745
00:42:19,469 --> 00:42:22,269
Speaker 2: the same time. I'm wondering if you can see your

746
00:42:22,409 --> 00:42:27,819
Speaker 2: use of porn as a way to manage and manage

747
00:42:27,859 --> 00:42:29,619
Speaker 2: frustrations and manage distance.

748
00:42:30,219 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was like a kind of barrier from real life,

749
00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:39,169
Speaker 5: just kind of removing myself from a situation and, you know,

750
00:42:39,209 --> 00:42:39,949
Speaker 5: being distracted.

751
00:42:41,169 --> 00:42:43,049
Speaker 2: And that is much more likely to happen when you

752
00:42:43,089 --> 00:42:46,109
Speaker 2: don't know how else to deal with the situation.

753
00:42:46,569 --> 00:42:46,889
Speaker 3: Yeah.

754
00:42:48,139 --> 00:42:50,679
Speaker 1: Can you tell Anna now how you were feeling during

755
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:51,159
Speaker 1: that time?

756
00:42:52,399 --> 00:42:54,099
Speaker 5: I felt like I was being pushed away by.

757
00:42:56,329 --> 00:43:00,459
Speaker 5: The way that she was being frustrated and the best

758
00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 5: way I can describe it is very snappy and short.

759
00:43:04,819 --> 00:43:06,779
Speaker 5: Cause at the time we were also dealing with some

760
00:43:07,399 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 5: other issues as far as our relationship with talking to

761
00:43:09,939 --> 00:43:10,959
Speaker 5: other people, still.

762
00:43:11,139 --> 00:43:15,199
Speaker 1: Talking to other people, still meaning what coworker.

763
00:43:14,739 --> 00:43:19,019
Speaker 5: From my old job, just talking to people online, I

764
00:43:19,399 --> 00:43:23,129
Speaker 5: would turn to video games as well as, as finding

765
00:43:23,189 --> 00:43:26,579
Speaker 5: some sort of like way to just, kind of get

766
00:43:26,619 --> 00:43:36,369
Speaker 5: away from everything and ended up Snapchatting once or rather

767
00:43:36,409 --> 00:43:40,169
Speaker 5: I gave my Snapchat out online and somebody had messaged

768
00:43:40,209 --> 00:43:43,529
Speaker 5: me back the next day. I just snapped them back

769
00:43:43,569 --> 00:43:49,679
Speaker 5: and said, Hey, I screwed up. I'm married. No, but

770
00:43:50,419 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 5: that definitely drove a big wedge in between us. And

771
00:43:54,839 --> 00:43:59,909
Speaker 5: kind of really, really kicked off the shortness with me.

772
00:44:00,889 --> 00:44:03,449
Speaker 1: How did Anna find out about that? And then how

773
00:44:03,489 --> 00:44:06,089
Speaker 1: did you two try to repair the trust after that?

774
00:44:06,549 --> 00:44:09,929
Speaker 5: We were camping and it was just on my phone

775
00:44:09,949 --> 00:44:14,069
Speaker 5: on Snapchat. She's like, hey, who is this person? And

776
00:44:16,849 --> 00:44:21,059
Speaker 5: we talked about it, but I didn't feel like she

777
00:44:21,249 --> 00:44:25,219
Speaker 5: was working. ever really able or willing to try and

778
00:44:25,259 --> 00:44:26,039
Speaker 5: rebuild trust.

779
00:44:27,319 --> 00:44:30,559
Speaker 1: You said you were just trying to move on. What

780
00:44:30,579 --> 00:44:33,139
Speaker 1: did that mean to you to move on when the

781
00:44:33,859 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: trust had been broken and how did you imagine it

782
00:44:36,819 --> 00:44:41,039
Speaker 1: would get repaired? What did move on look like to you?

783
00:44:42,019 --> 00:44:46,039
Speaker 5: Move on to me looked like, you know, understanding what

784
00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:52,599
Speaker 5: I had done wrong and removing that temptation from And

785
00:44:53,059 --> 00:44:57,019
Speaker 5: us being able to, kind of how we are now,

786
00:44:57,319 --> 00:45:00,539
Speaker 5: being able to talk to each other about, hey, this

787
00:45:00,619 --> 00:45:04,199
Speaker 5: is why I'm frustrated. You did this. Okay, well, I'm sorry.

788
00:45:04,539 --> 00:45:09,219
Speaker 5: Much healthier conversations. And I never felt like any of

789
00:45:09,279 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 5: those conversations were really willing to be had at the time.

790
00:45:13,779 --> 00:45:22,099
Speaker 1: Anna, when that happened, what did you need? in order

791
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,499
Speaker 1: to start to rebuild some trust with Chris?

792
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:30,679
Speaker 3: I think I needed the full truth. And at that point,

793
00:45:30,859 --> 00:45:32,739
Speaker 3: it was hard to tell if I was getting the

794
00:45:32,799 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 3: full truth.

795
00:45:34,399 --> 00:45:36,179
Speaker 1: Why did you think you weren't getting the full truth?

796
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:39,249
Speaker 1: Was he telling part of the story and you had

797
00:45:39,289 --> 00:45:41,089
Speaker 1: to keep asking follow-up questions?

798
00:45:41,889 --> 00:45:42,109
Speaker 4: Yeah.

799
00:45:42,969 --> 00:45:47,389
Speaker 3: Yeah, I kept having to kind of dig deeper. I'm like, okay,

800
00:45:47,529 --> 00:45:49,629
Speaker 3: you know, explain this a little bit more because it's

801
00:45:49,669 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 3: not making sense. Also paired with the fact that in

802
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:57,959
Speaker 3: previous times, it's been the same thing where I feel

803
00:45:57,999 --> 00:45:59,579
Speaker 3: like I have to pull it out of him in

804
00:46:00,379 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 3: order to get the full truth.

805
00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:04,899
Speaker 1: Tell Chris right now what you would have needed at

806
00:46:04,959 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: the time.

807
00:46:05,999 --> 00:46:10,179
Speaker 3: I needed you to come forward before getting caught and

808
00:46:10,219 --> 00:46:12,579
Speaker 3: let me know, hey, I messed up and this is

809
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:17,609
Speaker 3: what happened. Since that was not the case, after the fact,

810
00:46:17,789 --> 00:46:23,669
Speaker 3: I needed you to fully own. what you did and

811
00:46:24,619 --> 00:46:27,659
Speaker 3: asked me how it made me feel because it was

812
00:46:27,699 --> 00:46:30,959
Speaker 3: incredibly hurtful. And at that point we had just gotten

813
00:46:30,999 --> 00:46:34,559
Speaker 3: married and, you know, it was devastating for me.

814
00:46:35,279 --> 00:46:37,999
Speaker 2: So when Chris is saying, I tried to talk about

815
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:40,519
Speaker 2: it and see how she felt, but she didn't want

816
00:46:40,559 --> 00:46:45,329
Speaker 2: to have the conversation. I'm confused about how that played out.

817
00:46:46,409 --> 00:46:48,829
Speaker 3: I wanted to have a conversation, but I don't feel

818
00:46:48,849 --> 00:46:51,409
Speaker 3: like he was going about it the right way. In

819
00:46:51,449 --> 00:46:55,829
Speaker 3: my mind, it didn't seem like he really wanted to

820
00:46:55,949 --> 00:47:00,499
Speaker 3: take accountability for what had happened. I think he wanted

821
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:03,459
Speaker 3: to just move on and for me to forgive him

822
00:47:03,479 --> 00:47:06,119
Speaker 3: and everything to go back to normal.

823
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,019
Speaker 2: So the subtext that you heard when he's asking you

824
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,649
Speaker 2: what's going on and how you're feeling is, let's just

825
00:47:11,709 --> 00:47:14,069
Speaker 2: check the box here and just get there. Okay, yeah,

826
00:47:14,089 --> 00:47:16,389
Speaker 2: things are fine. So I can take myself out of

827
00:47:16,429 --> 00:47:18,989
Speaker 2: the doghouse. You didn't feel that it was sincere enough.

828
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also needed him to just be patient with

829
00:47:23,419 --> 00:47:27,499
Speaker 3: me because it's a process to move on from something

830
00:47:27,539 --> 00:47:30,579
Speaker 3: like that. It doesn't happen overnight. I needed time. I

831
00:47:30,579 --> 00:47:32,539
Speaker 3: needed time to heal from it.

832
00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:35,899
Speaker 2: Were you voicing that, that you needed more time?

833
00:47:36,799 --> 00:47:40,999
Speaker 3: Probably not in a great way. I was very angry

834
00:47:41,019 --> 00:47:47,569
Speaker 3: and I probably was very short-tempered and didn't ask it

835
00:47:47,609 --> 00:47:48,089
Speaker 3: in the right way.

836
00:47:50,149 --> 00:47:55,529
Speaker 1: I imagine that finding this out when you're newly married

837
00:47:56,569 --> 00:47:58,689
Speaker 1: must have brought up all kinds of questions for you,

838
00:47:58,709 --> 00:48:04,609
Speaker 1: especially given your history around trust. And then there had

839
00:48:04,629 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 1: been that earlier incident as well. And it sounds like

840
00:48:11,139 --> 00:48:14,199
Speaker 1: Chris wasn't asking about what this was like for you

841
00:48:14,259 --> 00:48:17,499
Speaker 1: or wasn't very curious about it, probably because he was

842
00:48:17,539 --> 00:48:21,209
Speaker 1: scared and knew he had messed up. and didn't want

843
00:48:21,229 --> 00:48:26,779
Speaker 1: it to have any catastrophic consequences for your marriage. Is

844
00:48:26,799 --> 00:48:32,459
Speaker 1: that right, Chris? And yet what happened was in order

845
00:48:32,499 --> 00:48:35,269
Speaker 1: to kind of protect the marriage, Chris, in your mind,

846
00:48:36,229 --> 00:48:40,549
Speaker 1: you ended up weakening the marriage because now Anna's walking

847
00:48:40,609 --> 00:48:44,729
Speaker 1: around feeling like you're not interested in my experience of this.

848
00:48:46,009 --> 00:48:49,619
Speaker 1: I am alone. in all of these questions that I have,

849
00:48:49,749 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: is our marriage going to make it? How do I

850
00:48:51,479 --> 00:48:54,409
Speaker 1: protect myself from this happening again? Can I ever trust

851
00:48:54,469 --> 00:48:57,629
Speaker 1: you again? What does this mean for us? We just

852
00:48:57,669 --> 00:49:04,389
Speaker 1: got married. And I have a feeling that until this

853
00:49:04,849 --> 00:49:08,789
Speaker 1: was discovered again with the debt and the porn, that

854
00:49:09,569 --> 00:49:13,049
Speaker 1: it just kind of got swept under the rug. That

855
00:49:13,729 --> 00:49:15,889
Speaker 1: This hasn't really been discussed. So what we want to

856
00:49:15,929 --> 00:49:18,769
Speaker 1: help you with today is how not to do that now.

857
00:49:21,709 --> 00:49:23,849
Speaker 1: And I think one conversation that we haven't had yet

858
00:49:23,909 --> 00:49:27,589
Speaker 1: today is this idea that you both might have different ideas.

859
00:49:27,629 --> 00:49:31,149
Speaker 1: So you don't have different ideas about honesty. Chris, you

860
00:49:31,169 --> 00:49:35,829
Speaker 1: haven't been able to uphold your own value around honesty, right? Yeah.

861
00:49:36,149 --> 00:49:38,489
Speaker 1: But I think you might have different ideas about what

862
00:49:38,929 --> 00:49:46,039
Speaker 1: constitutes cheating or betrayal. For example, talking to that coworker

863
00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:49,339
Speaker 1: and saying, how was your day? If it truly was platonic,

864
00:49:49,899 --> 00:49:52,099
Speaker 1: and Chris, you'll have to be honest with us about this.

865
00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:54,479
Speaker 1: Was it truly platonic or was there maybe something going

866
00:49:54,539 --> 00:49:54,819
Speaker 1: on there?

867
00:49:55,339 --> 00:49:58,159
Speaker 5: Looking backwards, I could have been using it as an

868
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:04,209
Speaker 5: emotional crutch to feel validated because we weren't effectively communicating.

869
00:50:04,909 --> 00:50:09,149
Speaker 1: And in terms of porn, Anna, you said, I consider

870
00:50:09,189 --> 00:50:14,619
Speaker 1: that infidelity. Not everybody does. What matters is what it

871
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:17,219
Speaker 1: means to the two of you. Can you both talk

872
00:50:17,279 --> 00:50:22,369
Speaker 1: about your feelings about what it means to be in

873
00:50:22,389 --> 00:50:25,629
Speaker 1: this relationship where you're not betraying the other person? What

874
00:50:25,709 --> 00:50:29,289
Speaker 1: are the boundaries? Have you ever had a real specific conversation?

875
00:50:29,539 --> 00:50:29,999
Speaker 1: about that?

876
00:50:31,419 --> 00:50:38,209
Speaker 4: We did recently and we agreed that for right now,

877
00:50:38,229 --> 00:50:42,369
Speaker 4: porn would have to go completely.

878
00:50:42,789 --> 00:50:44,789
Speaker 1: You say we agreed and that's sort of an action,

879
00:50:44,909 --> 00:50:47,999
Speaker 1: but in terms of just how you both view what

880
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:51,589
Speaker 1: it means to not betray your partner, what it means

881
00:50:51,649 --> 00:50:55,049
Speaker 1: to be loyal to your partner. It sounds like, Anna,

882
00:50:55,129 --> 00:51:02,419
Speaker 1: you have this idea that using porn is infidelity. And

883
00:51:03,359 --> 00:51:05,079
Speaker 1: Chris might not have that idea.

884
00:51:05,939 --> 00:51:11,889
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think for me, the point where it reached

885
00:51:12,829 --> 00:51:16,929
Speaker 3: infidelity in my mind was the OnlyFans piece. You do

886
00:51:16,969 --> 00:51:22,669
Speaker 3: subscribe to these women And that felt more personal to me.

887
00:51:22,689 --> 00:51:26,249
Speaker 3: Maybe it wasn't completely being unfaithful, but I certainly don't

888
00:51:26,289 --> 00:51:29,519
Speaker 3: feel like it was being faithful in our marriage.

889
00:51:30,059 --> 00:51:30,959
Speaker 1: It makes you uncomfortable.

890
00:51:31,539 --> 00:51:31,809
Speaker 5: Yeah.

891
00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:34,499
Speaker 2: And Chris, I have a question for you. When Anna says, yeah,

892
00:51:34,519 --> 00:51:38,059
Speaker 2: we agreed that the porn has to go. I just

893
00:51:38,079 --> 00:51:40,519
Speaker 2: want to check in with you. If you truly agree

894
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:42,339
Speaker 2: the porn has to go, that's one thing. If you

895
00:51:42,379 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 2: don't truly agree, but you just agreed to it, then

896
00:51:45,479 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: that's when you're still going to have the impulse to

897
00:51:47,819 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: do it. And you're going to have the impulse to

898
00:51:49,379 --> 00:51:52,229
Speaker 2: do it. when you're feeling disconnected or when you're feeling

899
00:51:52,249 --> 00:51:55,499
Speaker 2: a distance. So I just want to get a sense

900
00:51:55,539 --> 00:51:57,939
Speaker 2: of how much you're on board with that.

901
00:51:58,779 --> 00:52:02,899
Speaker 5: I'm full on board with it. I really don't actually

902
00:52:02,979 --> 00:52:05,939
Speaker 5: need this. I can talk to her if I'm frustrated.

903
00:52:05,959 --> 00:52:08,479
Speaker 5: There's so many other ways to go about it rather

904
00:52:08,539 --> 00:52:14,079
Speaker 5: than trying to fill some sort of void with porn.

905
00:52:15,229 --> 00:52:17,289
Speaker 1: When you were on social media with that coworker and

906
00:52:17,309 --> 00:52:20,019
Speaker 1: you were saying, how's your day? And Anna said, I

907
00:52:20,059 --> 00:52:22,979
Speaker 1: just wanted him to ask me that. Do you know

908
00:52:23,059 --> 00:52:24,299
Speaker 1: why you weren't asking that?

909
00:52:25,439 --> 00:52:27,929
Speaker 5: I think that I would every once in a while,

910
00:52:28,099 --> 00:52:30,729
Speaker 5: but I feel like at the time there was a

911
00:52:30,769 --> 00:52:34,389
Speaker 5: lot of disconnect between us that had just built up

912
00:52:34,829 --> 00:52:35,389
Speaker 5: over time.

913
00:52:36,089 --> 00:52:38,849
Speaker 1: And so when you feel disconnected, instead of coming closer,

914
00:52:40,009 --> 00:52:40,689
Speaker 1: you retreat.

915
00:52:41,989 --> 00:52:42,429
Speaker 3: Yeah.

916
00:52:42,909 --> 00:52:45,769
Speaker 1: Instead of saying we're disconnected. So I want to see Anna,

917
00:52:45,829 --> 00:52:47,209
Speaker 1: how are you? Let's reconnect.

918
00:52:47,229 --> 00:52:47,309
Speaker 5: Yeah.

919
00:52:48,499 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: You go somewhere else.

920
00:52:49,419 --> 00:52:50,099
Speaker 2: I agree.

921
00:52:50,159 --> 00:52:52,159
Speaker 5: And I think that we both kind of do the

922
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:54,959
Speaker 5: same thing because it's like, I know when she's feeling disconnected,

923
00:52:55,059 --> 00:52:58,959
Speaker 5: I feel like she's very much pushing me off or

924
00:52:58,979 --> 00:53:00,299
Speaker 5: like trying to push me away.

925
00:53:00,319 --> 00:53:03,179
Speaker 2: That's not when she's feeling disconnected. That's when she's feeling hurt.

926
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:04,079
Speaker 4: Yeah.

927
00:53:04,359 --> 00:53:07,559
Speaker 2: Those are very different. Yeah, you are correct.

928
00:53:08,179 --> 00:53:11,049
Speaker 1: When she's feeling disconnected, it sounds like she tries to

929
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:14,109
Speaker 1: come toward you and then she doesn't get that. And

930
00:53:14,149 --> 00:53:19,259
Speaker 1: then she feels hurt and then she retreats. And when

931
00:53:19,339 --> 00:53:24,579
Speaker 1: you're feeling disconnected, do you feel rejected? Do you feel hurt?

932
00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: What do you feel?

933
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:30,269
Speaker 5: I feel rejected for sure. And just lonely.

934
00:53:31,109 --> 00:53:34,969
Speaker 2: So you each are able to love one another because

935
00:53:35,009 --> 00:53:36,929
Speaker 2: we do get the sense that you love one another.

936
00:53:36,949 --> 00:53:40,629
Speaker 2: And yet you can each really hurt one another. And

937
00:53:40,669 --> 00:53:46,349
Speaker 2: you have not yet developed adequate tools to come toward

938
00:53:46,459 --> 00:53:49,709
Speaker 2: one another. in those moments, to have discussions that bring

939
00:53:49,749 --> 00:53:55,349
Speaker 2: you closer, that breach the gap. And instead, what happens

940
00:53:55,509 --> 00:53:59,229
Speaker 2: is something that typically makes you feel worse, each of you,

941
00:53:59,249 --> 00:54:00,589
Speaker 2: in your own way.

942
00:54:01,469 --> 00:54:03,999
Speaker 5: Today, I have no problems with it at all. I

943
00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:10,859
Speaker 5: feel like since I've been ousted for financial spending and

944
00:54:10,919 --> 00:54:15,819
Speaker 5: my debt, that kind of broke down all of the barriers.

945
00:54:15,279 --> 00:54:15,979
Speaker 2: That I have.

946
00:54:16,749 --> 00:54:21,649
Speaker 5: As far as constantly trying to hide things, it's miserable.

947
00:54:22,389 --> 00:54:28,509
Speaker 5: We've saw a marriage counselor that has been very good.

948
00:54:28,529 --> 00:54:31,819
Speaker 5: I've also sought personal counseling that helps me kind of

949
00:54:32,139 --> 00:54:35,119
Speaker 5: deal with that. But I feel like where we're at today,

950
00:54:35,139 --> 00:54:39,599
Speaker 5: I have absolutely no problem telling Anna, Hey, you know,

951
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:42,179
Speaker 5: I'm feeling disconnected today or, Hey, you know, I'm just

952
00:54:42,219 --> 00:54:44,559
Speaker 5: in an off mood and I'm quiet today.

953
00:54:44,799 --> 00:54:47,379
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good to hear. Anna, for you, though, since

954
00:54:47,419 --> 00:54:52,429
Speaker 2: you're dealing with mistrust at this time still, it might

955
00:54:52,469 --> 00:54:56,009
Speaker 2: feel even scarier than to be truly vulnerable and to

956
00:54:56,109 --> 00:54:59,109
Speaker 2: open up because that's a trusting act to say to someone,

957
00:54:59,169 --> 00:55:03,109
Speaker 2: here's what I'm feeling and here's where I'm hurting. So

958
00:55:03,189 --> 00:55:04,609
Speaker 2: where are you with that today?

959
00:55:04,629 --> 00:55:09,289
Speaker 3: I would say I'm trying really hard to be vulnerable

960
00:55:09,789 --> 00:55:13,869
Speaker 3: and to you know, be open and trust that he

961
00:55:13,969 --> 00:55:16,989
Speaker 3: is working on things and that he is willing to change.

962
00:55:17,789 --> 00:55:21,579
Speaker 3: It still is hard. I'm still very hurt and it's

963
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:25,979
Speaker 3: still raw and, you know, I'm also pregnant. And so

964
00:55:25,999 --> 00:55:29,779
Speaker 3: I have all these emotions and they get the best

965
00:55:29,839 --> 00:55:32,539
Speaker 3: of me, you know, every now and then, but I,

966
00:55:32,929 --> 00:55:35,589
Speaker 3: I would say I am trying to overcome that.

967
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:39,209
Speaker 1: Do you feel that this time, as opposed to the

968
00:55:39,269 --> 00:55:45,549
Speaker 1: other times, that Chris is being fully accountable for deceiving

969
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:47,229
Speaker 1: you and for the dishonesty?

970
00:55:47,249 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 3: I do. We have merged finances. And so we both

971
00:55:52,399 --> 00:55:56,559
Speaker 3: have access to seeing everything that's going on. I have

972
00:55:56,639 --> 00:55:59,979
Speaker 3: all of his passwords. We are bringing a baby into

973
00:56:00,019 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 3: the world and that has impacted him as well. And

974
00:56:03,819 --> 00:56:07,269
Speaker 3: he knows that I'm very serious. If the pattern of

975
00:56:07,329 --> 00:56:11,909
Speaker 3: dishonesty and deception continues. He will lose me as his

976
00:56:11,989 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 3: wife and that will change the time he gets to spend.

977
00:56:17,059 --> 00:56:18,179
Speaker 5: With his daughter as well.

978
00:56:19,139 --> 00:56:21,819
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, at this point, I do trust

979
00:56:21,859 --> 00:56:25,709
Speaker 4: that he is serious about it, but it's still hard.

980
00:56:27,309 --> 00:56:31,689
Speaker 1: What do you think you need from him in order

981
00:56:31,789 --> 00:56:35,859
Speaker 1: to rebuild the trust in a way that eventually, because

982
00:56:35,879 --> 00:56:39,489
Speaker 1: it's going to take time, eventually feels solid to you?

983
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:43,909
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing for me is when

984
00:56:43,969 --> 00:56:47,029
Speaker 3: he messes up because he will, because no one is perfect.

985
00:56:47,609 --> 00:56:48,169
Speaker 3: What does that mean?

986
00:56:48,249 --> 00:56:49,909
Speaker 1: He messes up. How do you imagine?

987
00:56:50,569 --> 00:56:56,889
Speaker 3: If he looks at porn or if he spends, you know,

988
00:56:56,929 --> 00:57:01,699
Speaker 3: more than he should without talking to me first, something

989
00:57:01,729 --> 00:57:04,619
Speaker 3: like that. It would be very helpful if he came

990
00:57:04,659 --> 00:57:08,119
Speaker 3: to me first before me finding out and saying, hey,

991
00:57:08,299 --> 00:57:11,789
Speaker 3: I messed up. This is what happened. Because that to

992
00:57:11,809 --> 00:57:15,389
Speaker 3: me is so, so crucial. It's not waiting to get

993
00:57:15,469 --> 00:57:17,949
Speaker 3: caught to be honest and do the right thing.

994
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:21,609
Speaker 1: What I'm thinking about is that dynamic that happens with

995
00:57:21,849 --> 00:57:24,949
Speaker 1: his parents where he went to them and said twice,

996
00:57:25,529 --> 00:57:28,089
Speaker 1: I messed up to the tune of several thousand dollars.

997
00:57:28,789 --> 00:57:32,059
Speaker 1: And they said, we will bail you out. And I wonder, Chris,

998
00:57:32,099 --> 00:57:37,139
Speaker 1: if you imagine that if you go to Anna and say, hey,

999
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:39,099
Speaker 1: I messed up, that she's going to be like your

1000
00:57:39,139 --> 00:57:44,179
Speaker 1: parents and say, okay, well, you know, I'll let it slide.

1001
00:57:44,239 --> 00:57:46,829
Speaker 1: I'll be mad at you and it'll be unpleasant, but

1002
00:57:47,539 --> 00:57:52,369
Speaker 1: nothing's really fundamentally going to change. And I wonder if

1003
00:57:52,409 --> 00:57:56,649
Speaker 1: you really understand what the difference is between what you've

1004
00:57:56,669 --> 00:57:58,549
Speaker 1: done in the past when you've messed up and what

1005
00:57:58,569 --> 00:58:00,789
Speaker 1: you might do now in this adult marriage.

1006
00:58:01,419 --> 00:58:04,599
Speaker 5: I think I do. I mean, there's a lot riding

1007
00:58:04,699 --> 00:58:05,599
Speaker 5: on my honesty.

1008
00:58:06,879 --> 00:58:07,059
Speaker 4: Right.

1009
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:09,419
Speaker 1: But what I'm talking about is that when you were

1010
00:58:09,499 --> 00:58:16,449
Speaker 1: honest with your parents, they bailed you out. And so far,

1011
00:58:16,949 --> 00:58:19,549
Speaker 1: Anna's bailed you out. You've come to her or she's

1012
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:23,709
Speaker 1: discovered things. But either way, what she's saying is I

1013
00:58:23,749 --> 00:58:26,009
Speaker 1: need you to come to me. But I think she's

1014
00:58:26,029 --> 00:58:29,429
Speaker 1: saying something more, which is not just I need you

1015
00:58:29,449 --> 00:58:33,819
Speaker 1: to come to me. but that I'm not necessarily going

1016
00:58:33,859 --> 00:58:34,959
Speaker 1: to bail you out.

1017
00:58:35,719 --> 00:58:41,519
Speaker 5: Yeah. And you know, she hasn't really necessarily bailed me out.

1018
00:58:41,809 --> 00:58:42,389
Speaker 1: Well, she's here.

1019
00:58:42,409 --> 00:58:42,489
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1020
00:58:43,389 --> 00:58:45,869
Speaker 5: You know, I don't expect her to ever stay if

1021
00:58:47,249 --> 00:58:49,529
Speaker 5: any of this stuff continues, because that's a lot to

1022
00:58:49,569 --> 00:58:51,049
Speaker 5: deal with from her perspective.

1023
00:58:51,729 --> 00:58:53,729
Speaker 1: So what are you going to do to find healthier

1024
00:58:53,769 --> 00:58:57,979
Speaker 1: ways to deal with these feelings of disconnection or loneliness

1025
00:58:57,999 --> 00:59:01,819
Speaker 1: and that won't be so harmful to your marriage?

1026
00:59:02,329 --> 00:59:06,929
Speaker 5: I'm trying to be more present in my actions right now,

1027
00:59:06,949 --> 00:59:10,149
Speaker 5: not so passive and just like reacting how I react,

1028
00:59:10,169 --> 00:59:13,089
Speaker 5: but like being conscious of how I'm reacting to things

1029
00:59:13,649 --> 00:59:16,479
Speaker 5: and how I'm feeling in the moments, trying to hold

1030
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:17,419
Speaker 5: myself accountable.

1031
00:59:18,679 --> 00:59:20,779
Speaker 1: How do you both feel at this point in the

1032
00:59:20,839 --> 00:59:29,029
Speaker 1: conversation about where you are with trust and And all

1033
00:59:29,049 --> 00:59:31,639
Speaker 1: of the changes that are about to happen and being

1034
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:35,999
Speaker 1: able to come closer together as opposed to farther apart.

1035
00:59:36,519 --> 00:59:37,319
Speaker 5: I feel hopeful.

1036
00:59:37,339 --> 00:59:40,899
Speaker 3: It does concern me that in a few months we

1037
00:59:40,919 --> 00:59:43,919
Speaker 3: are going to be having a baby. And there are

1038
00:59:43,939 --> 00:59:47,299
Speaker 3: a lot of stressors that come with that. But I

1039
00:59:47,379 --> 00:59:50,179
Speaker 3: am hopeful. We just need to keep reminding each other

1040
00:59:50,579 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 3: to have those conversations.

1041
00:59:52,939 --> 00:59:56,219
Speaker 1: Do you see your role in holding back as well?

1042
00:59:56,239 --> 01:00:00,909
Speaker 3: I do. I think I'm still struggling a little bit

1043
01:00:00,969 --> 01:00:06,299
Speaker 3: with all these emotions and feeling very hurt. And it's

1044
01:00:06,319 --> 01:00:08,659
Speaker 3: hard for me still to open up and be vulnerable.

1045
01:00:08,779 --> 01:00:11,519
Speaker 3: But I do feel like I can do that now.

1046
01:00:12,579 --> 01:00:14,689
Speaker 1: Can you tell him right now what all these emotions are?

1047
01:00:15,389 --> 01:00:20,779
Speaker 3: I feel very, very hurt by you. I feel betrayed.

1048
01:00:20,799 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 3: I feel.

1049
01:00:24,419 --> 01:00:28,379
Speaker 4: Like the vows that we said on our wedding day

1050
01:00:28,399 --> 01:00:32,379
Speaker 4: weren't as important to you as they were to me.

1051
01:00:32,399 --> 01:00:36,319
Speaker 4: I'm very anxious and sad.

1052
01:00:40,369 --> 01:00:44,529
Speaker 1: I think the main theme here that encapsulates all of

1053
01:00:44,569 --> 01:00:46,199
Speaker 1: that is I don't feel safe.

1054
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:47,139
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1055
01:00:48,299 --> 01:00:51,799
Speaker 1: Chris, what was going on for you as she was

1056
01:00:51,859 --> 01:00:54,679
Speaker 1: saying this? What goes on in your body when you

1057
01:00:54,699 --> 01:00:55,479
Speaker 1: hear this from her?

1058
01:00:56,079 --> 01:00:56,819
Speaker 5: It was heartbreaking.

1059
01:00:57,559 --> 01:00:58,239
Speaker 1: Say more about that.

1060
01:00:58,919 --> 01:01:04,709
Speaker 5: I want to be able to lean into her as

1061
01:01:04,789 --> 01:01:07,249
Speaker 5: she needs to be able to lean into me. It's

1062
01:01:08,669 --> 01:01:13,229
Speaker 5: hurtful to know that I'm not a person that she

1063
01:01:13,269 --> 01:01:16,349
Speaker 5: can feel comfortable talking to about things.

1064
01:01:17,309 --> 01:01:20,469
Speaker 2: And I expressed a lot of concern for the future.

1065
01:01:22,089 --> 01:01:25,749
Speaker 2: Could you respond to her now and some response to

1066
01:01:25,769 --> 01:01:28,479
Speaker 2: the worries that she has to her?

1067
01:01:29,439 --> 01:01:33,139
Speaker 5: I think that your concerns are completely valid. I've completely

1068
01:01:33,179 --> 01:01:40,069
Speaker 5: broken your trust multiple times and retreated forever. from you

1069
01:01:40,489 --> 01:01:45,109
Speaker 5: when I'm hurting. I'm trying very, very hard to be

1070
01:01:45,769 --> 01:01:53,239
Speaker 5: present and take steps to rebuild the trust that I've

1071
01:01:53,259 --> 01:01:57,659
Speaker 5: broken because I want to build a safe place for you.

1072
01:01:59,249 --> 01:02:01,709
Speaker 1: Are you hurting right now? You said you retreat when

1073
01:02:01,729 --> 01:02:03,289
Speaker 1: you're hurting. Are you hurting right now?

1074
01:02:03,309 --> 01:02:04,709
Speaker 2: A little bit.

1075
01:02:05,269 --> 01:02:07,869
Speaker 1: Can you tell Anna about how you're hurting?

1076
01:02:09,769 --> 01:02:13,369
Speaker 5: It's just hard to hear that I've hurt you.

1077
01:02:14,609 --> 01:02:16,629
Speaker 1: Are you hurting also because you feel lonely?

1078
01:02:16,649 --> 01:02:19,369
Speaker 5: Not right now.

1079
01:02:21,779 --> 01:02:24,359
Speaker 1: So talking about this makes you feel less lonely?

1080
01:02:25,179 --> 01:02:25,519
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1081
01:02:26,359 --> 01:02:33,359
Speaker 5: It's really relieving being able to talk about it, really.

1082
01:02:34,369 --> 01:02:36,149
Speaker 1: Tell me what the tears are about.

1083
01:02:37,769 --> 01:02:38,189
Speaker 2: It's just a.

1084
01:02:38,169 --> 01:02:42,429
Speaker 5: Release of emotions. It's just hard, you know, knowing that

1085
01:02:42,449 --> 01:02:47,609
Speaker 5: I've done these things to her. And, you know, it

1086
01:02:47,669 --> 01:02:48,449
Speaker 5: hurts to hear it.

1087
01:02:48,449 --> 01:02:53,649
Speaker 1: I think the tears might also be related to what

1088
01:02:53,669 --> 01:02:56,729
Speaker 1: you said about it's a relief to be able to

1089
01:02:56,809 --> 01:02:57,709
Speaker 1: talk about this.

1090
01:02:58,539 --> 01:03:00,759
Speaker 5: Oh, it's a huge relief. When I told her about

1091
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,419
Speaker 5: the $ 15, 000 in credit card debt, being able to talk

1092
01:03:04,479 --> 01:03:08,799
Speaker 5: about it, I feel a hundred times better than I

1093
01:03:08,859 --> 01:03:12,059
Speaker 5: ever did. trying to hide what I was doing just

1094
01:03:12,099 --> 01:03:16,249
Speaker 5: because it's like, it's out there. And that was like

1095
01:03:16,269 --> 01:03:20,969
Speaker 5: a huge pressure relief was taken off by expressing those

1096
01:03:21,209 --> 01:03:21,969
Speaker 5: things that I was hiding.

1097
01:03:22,589 --> 01:03:25,769
Speaker 2: You know, Chris, it's so important to remember this because

1098
01:03:26,009 --> 01:03:29,239
Speaker 2: this is how you feel after you open up. This

1099
01:03:29,299 --> 01:03:33,279
Speaker 2: is how you feel after you're completely honest. You feel connected.

1100
01:03:33,579 --> 01:03:33,979
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

1101
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:37,659
Speaker 2: You feel hurt, but you feel connected. And the default

1102
01:03:37,879 --> 01:03:42,009
Speaker 2: that you have is to run away and increase the disconnection.

1103
01:03:42,769 --> 01:03:46,369
Speaker 2: And this feels very scary before you do it. This

1104
01:03:46,449 --> 01:03:49,709
Speaker 2: feels like this is gonna make things worse. It's counterintuitive.

1105
01:03:49,769 --> 01:03:52,989
Speaker 2: It feels like owning what I really did and taking

1106
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:56,989
Speaker 2: responsibility and really talking about that directly will just inflame.

1107
01:03:57,129 --> 01:04:01,079
Speaker 2: But this is what allows you to feel connected. And

1108
01:04:01,399 --> 01:04:03,959
Speaker 2: it's super important that you remember that as painful as

1109
01:04:03,999 --> 01:04:07,099
Speaker 2: it is, it's the connection that you want.

1110
01:04:07,819 --> 01:04:08,079
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

1111
01:04:08,829 --> 01:04:13,299
Speaker 2: Anna, this is what helps Chris feel connected. What helps

1112
01:04:13,339 --> 01:04:17,019
Speaker 2: you feel connected? What's the most connected that you feel

1113
01:04:17,739 --> 01:04:20,039
Speaker 2: when you're talking? What has to happen that helps you

1114
01:04:20,099 --> 01:04:21,979
Speaker 2: feel what Chris is feeling right now?

1115
01:04:23,679 --> 01:04:26,909
Speaker 3: I think just him coming to me and expressing how

1116
01:04:26,949 --> 01:04:32,349
Speaker 3: he feels, saying, you know, I'm sad or I'm hurt

1117
01:04:32,849 --> 01:04:39,929
Speaker 3: because of so-and-so. Just hearing him express his emotions like that.

1118
01:04:40,509 --> 01:04:42,789
Speaker 2: Right now, are you feeling more connected to him as

1119
01:04:42,829 --> 01:04:44,109
Speaker 2: he's expressing these emotions?

1120
01:04:44,609 --> 01:04:44,849
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1121
01:04:50,579 --> 01:04:53,579
Speaker 2: Chris and Anna, we have some advice for you. The

1122
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:55,879
Speaker 2: first part is we'd like you to have a monthly

1123
01:04:56,259 --> 01:04:59,639
Speaker 2: finance meeting. Find that time, put it in the schedule

1124
01:04:59,779 --> 01:05:02,409
Speaker 2: every month. Shouldn't take that long. just to go over

1125
01:05:02,449 --> 01:05:05,549
Speaker 2: the bills. You should discuss a dollar amount above which

1126
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:08,749
Speaker 2: you consult with one another before spending it, below which

1127
01:05:08,769 --> 01:05:12,469
Speaker 2: you have the autonomy to do that. You might consider

1128
01:05:12,869 --> 01:05:15,989
Speaker 2: creating a budget together in that meeting so that you

1129
01:05:16,029 --> 01:05:19,549
Speaker 2: have even more accountability on finances. But if you have

1130
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:22,709
Speaker 2: a monthly touchpoint on finances, which has been a sore spot,

1131
01:05:23,129 --> 01:05:26,149
Speaker 2: then your spending can't get too out of control, Chris,

1132
01:05:26,209 --> 01:05:28,859
Speaker 2: and Anna, you'll have more eyes on what's going on.

1133
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:31,559
Speaker 2: And it'll just create a certain regularity. So we'd like

1134
01:05:31,599 --> 01:05:33,099
Speaker 2: you to put that into the schedule and have the

1135
01:05:33,139 --> 01:05:34,659
Speaker 2: first one of those this week.

1136
01:05:34,979 --> 01:05:37,059
Speaker 1: And this way too, it becomes a partnership that you're

1137
01:05:37,099 --> 01:05:39,539
Speaker 1: working together on the finances, that it's not one or

1138
01:05:39,579 --> 01:05:43,419
Speaker 1: the other or doing things separately and without the other's knowledge.

1139
01:05:45,509 --> 01:05:48,109
Speaker 1: The second thing is we would like you to schedule

1140
01:05:48,589 --> 01:05:52,029
Speaker 1: a weekly feelings meeting. And I know that does not

1141
01:05:52,089 --> 01:05:54,649
Speaker 1: sound necessarily appealing to people who don't like to talk

1142
01:05:54,689 --> 01:05:56,689
Speaker 1: about their feelings, but we want it to be really fun.

1143
01:05:57,449 --> 01:05:59,329
Speaker 1: And there's a structure to it. And it goes like this.

1144
01:06:00,789 --> 01:06:03,089
Speaker 1: You have 30 minutes total. So it will not go

1145
01:06:03,129 --> 01:06:05,569
Speaker 1: over 30 minutes because you will be very busy and

1146
01:06:05,589 --> 01:06:07,389
Speaker 1: you won't have time. And we want this to be

1147
01:06:07,429 --> 01:06:11,649
Speaker 1: something that feels realistic. You set a timer for five minutes.

1148
01:06:11,889 --> 01:06:14,489
Speaker 1: You flip a coin to see who goes first. And

1149
01:06:15,009 --> 01:06:16,769
Speaker 1: what you do in those five minutes, the person who

1150
01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:21,339
Speaker 1: goes first, is you share anything about your inner experience

1151
01:06:21,399 --> 01:06:23,709
Speaker 1: from that week. that you would like the other person

1152
01:06:23,869 --> 01:06:26,529
Speaker 1: to know. It could be about the relationship. Like when

1153
01:06:26,569 --> 01:06:29,009
Speaker 1: you did that, it made me feel this. Or I

1154
01:06:29,049 --> 01:06:30,889
Speaker 1: really liked when you did that. That made me feel

1155
01:06:31,029 --> 01:06:34,019
Speaker 1: so good. Or this thing is happening at work and

1156
01:06:34,039 --> 01:06:36,879
Speaker 1: I'm really stressed about it. Or this is my reaction

1157
01:06:36,939 --> 01:06:39,379
Speaker 1: to the baby and I'm having trouble with parenting. Could

1158
01:06:39,419 --> 01:06:42,859
Speaker 1: be anything. That's your five minutes. During that five minutes,

1159
01:06:42,979 --> 01:06:46,379
Speaker 1: the other person is listening. They are not talking. They

1160
01:06:46,399 --> 01:06:49,199
Speaker 1: are taking in. This is the other person's experience, even

1161
01:06:49,239 --> 01:06:53,109
Speaker 1: if it's different from mine. And then, Set a timer

1162
01:06:53,149 --> 01:06:56,619
Speaker 1: for five minutes. Person gets to respond. How can you

1163
01:06:56,659 --> 01:06:59,699
Speaker 1: support that person? How do you want to respond to

1164
01:06:59,739 --> 01:07:02,759
Speaker 1: that person in a loving way that feels connecting for

1165
01:07:02,799 --> 01:07:06,659
Speaker 1: both of you? Next five minutes, the other person who

1166
01:07:06,679 --> 01:07:09,459
Speaker 1: didn't get to talk, gets to talk about their inner experience.

1167
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:12,629
Speaker 1: And then you switch again. You can do this just

1168
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:18,829
Speaker 1: the once where each person gets their chance. So that's five, five, five, five, talking, listening, talking, listening,

1169
01:07:19,329 --> 01:07:20,889
Speaker 1: or you might want to keep repeating it through the

1170
01:07:20,889 --> 01:07:23,789
Speaker 1: 30 minutes, but at 30 minutes, it's over. And hopefully

1171
01:07:23,809 --> 01:07:25,929
Speaker 1: you're talking about your feelings during the week too, but

1172
01:07:26,069 --> 01:07:30,529
Speaker 1: this makes sure that things don't get swept under the rug.

1173
01:07:30,549 --> 01:07:32,889
Speaker 1: If someone's feeling disconnected, they're not like, oh, well, we're

1174
01:07:32,909 --> 01:07:34,809
Speaker 1: so busy or the other person's stressed and I don't

1175
01:07:34,829 --> 01:07:36,959
Speaker 1: want to bring it up. And you should do it

1176
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:39,329
Speaker 1: over If you like having a glass of wine, if

1177
01:07:39,629 --> 01:07:42,009
Speaker 1: you like having dessert, if you want to take a walk,

1178
01:07:42,529 --> 01:07:44,729
Speaker 1: it should be fun and something that you both look

1179
01:07:44,769 --> 01:07:48,149
Speaker 1: forward to, like a relief from everything else that's going

1180
01:07:48,209 --> 01:07:50,889
Speaker 1: on during the week. We get to come together and

1181
01:07:50,909 --> 01:07:53,619
Speaker 1: get support from each other and be together as a couple.

1182
01:07:54,099 --> 01:07:58,239
Speaker 2: Try very hard, Chris, especially not thoughts, feelings. So make

1183
01:07:58,259 --> 01:08:01,079
Speaker 2: sure you're talking about actual feelings, not thoughts, because those

1184
01:08:01,119 --> 01:08:03,039
Speaker 2: are different. And the last thing we'd like you to

1185
01:08:03,079 --> 01:08:06,869
Speaker 2: do is we'd like you to come up with a constitution.

1186
01:08:07,669 --> 01:08:09,849
Speaker 2: of your marriage. And what that means is we'd like

1187
01:08:09,969 --> 01:08:14,649
Speaker 2: each of you to sit down and write a list

1188
01:08:14,889 --> 01:08:18,749
Speaker 2: of things, which have two parts. Number one, what I

1189
01:08:18,829 --> 01:08:22,499
Speaker 2: expect of you, Chris, you would write Anna as my husband.

1190
01:08:22,999 --> 01:08:26,099
Speaker 2: And then after that, what my expectation of myself is

1191
01:08:26,639 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 2: as your wife. And we want you to do each

1192
01:08:28,679 --> 01:08:32,239
Speaker 2: of those separately and then come together again this week

1193
01:08:33,039 --> 01:08:37,099
Speaker 2: and read them to one another. That's the constitution and

1194
01:08:37,219 --> 01:08:39,499
Speaker 2: give real thought to it because this is the bedrock

1195
01:08:39,999 --> 01:08:42,419
Speaker 2: on which you'll be building the foundation. So make sure

1196
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:44,119
Speaker 2: it's a bedrock that really speaks to you and that

1197
01:08:44,139 --> 01:08:46,659
Speaker 2: you've covered what you need and it's foundational.

1198
01:08:48,269 --> 01:08:49,789
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons we want you to do

1199
01:08:49,829 --> 01:08:52,049
Speaker 1: that is because many people come into marriage and they

1200
01:08:52,109 --> 01:08:55,929
Speaker 1: don't talk about what their expectations are for the marriage.

1201
01:08:56,329 --> 01:08:59,449
Speaker 1: They use old models, they use fantasy, they use all

1202
01:08:59,489 --> 01:09:02,369
Speaker 1: kinds of things. And they never actually discuss with each other,

1203
01:09:02,629 --> 01:09:04,769
Speaker 1: what do we want our marriage to look like? What

1204
01:09:04,789 --> 01:09:06,669
Speaker 1: do we expect from each other? And what do we

1205
01:09:06,729 --> 01:09:10,929
Speaker 1: expect from ourselves? And so when you have that, it

1206
01:09:10,969 --> 01:09:14,609
Speaker 1: provides both accountability and transparency.

1207
01:09:16,369 --> 01:09:16,969
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

1208
01:09:17,789 --> 01:09:18,069
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1209
01:09:18,389 --> 01:09:21,679
Speaker 5: And I kind of agree too. It's like, we didn't

1210
01:09:21,709 --> 01:09:23,709
Speaker 5: have those kind of talks and it was just kind

1211
01:09:23,749 --> 01:09:26,939
Speaker 5: of winging it into marriage and there was really no

1212
01:09:27,679 --> 01:09:30,199
Speaker 5: expectation of how this is going to go. We've both

1213
01:09:30,219 --> 01:09:33,059
Speaker 5: been modeled two very different kinds of things for marriage.

1214
01:09:34,019 --> 01:09:38,299
Speaker 1: And you're going to create your own unique experience of

1215
01:09:38,459 --> 01:09:40,499
Speaker 1: what you want your constitution to look like. And it

1216
01:09:40,539 --> 01:09:44,019
Speaker 1: should be a fun activity to really think about and

1217
01:09:44,059 --> 01:09:44,619
Speaker 1: do together.

1218
01:09:44,759 --> 01:09:45,259
Speaker 2: Exciting.

1219
01:09:45,319 --> 01:09:48,339
Speaker 1: It's looking toward the future. It's looking toward what we

1220
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:51,509
Speaker 1: can be together. And this is what our expectations are

1221
01:09:51,629 --> 01:09:52,829
Speaker 1: in order to build that.

1222
01:09:53,329 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1223
01:09:53,469 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1224
01:09:54,279 --> 01:09:57,199
Speaker 2: So we look forward to hearing how this goes for

1225
01:09:57,219 --> 01:09:57,879
Speaker 2: you guys this week.

1226
01:09:58,549 --> 01:10:00,109
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.

1227
01:10:00,149 --> 01:10:08,649
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. You know, what's interesting with Chris and

1228
01:10:08,749 --> 01:10:11,139
Speaker 2: Anna is that it's very clear that they care for

1229
01:10:11,179 --> 01:10:14,779
Speaker 2: each other, but there are some basic foundational aspects to

1230
01:10:14,799 --> 01:10:18,469
Speaker 2: their relationship that they never quite figured out. And that's

1231
01:10:18,589 --> 01:10:20,769
Speaker 2: what the task is before them now.

1232
01:10:21,769 --> 01:10:21,949
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1233
01:10:22,009 --> 01:10:24,209
Speaker 1: And I think that these issues that have come up,

1234
01:10:24,429 --> 01:10:27,829
Speaker 1: not only in this relationship, but in earlier relationships are

1235
01:10:27,849 --> 01:10:30,939
Speaker 1: things that sometimes people don't talk about and that come

1236
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:34,279
Speaker 1: out once they're married. And I think that even though

1237
01:10:34,319 --> 01:10:38,579
Speaker 1: this is so distressing and painful to go through the

1238
01:10:38,639 --> 01:10:42,339
Speaker 1: silver lining here is that it is forcing them to

1239
01:10:42,399 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: really consider what is the stuff we're bringing from our

1240
01:10:45,639 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: history into this relationship and what can we do to

1241
01:10:49,589 --> 01:10:52,569
Speaker 1: create the kind of relationship that we didn't have before,

1242
01:10:52,629 --> 01:10:55,849
Speaker 1: but that we want mutually. And I'm so excited to

1243
01:10:55,889 --> 01:10:58,469
Speaker 1: see what they do with the constitution, because I think

1244
01:10:58,549 --> 01:11:01,379
Speaker 1: that These are the conversations that many people need to

1245
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,709
Speaker 1: have that they never do until something forces it.

1246
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I ask so many couples whether they've had that

1247
01:11:07,819 --> 01:11:12,039
Speaker 2: conversation about setting expectations. What are the understandings they have

1248
01:11:12,079 --> 01:11:14,239
Speaker 2: about what their marriage should be and how it should

1249
01:11:14,279 --> 01:11:16,159
Speaker 2: be different from what they've seen around them? Very few

1250
01:11:16,179 --> 01:11:17,579
Speaker 2: couples have that conversation.

1251
01:11:17,799 --> 01:11:19,339
Speaker 1: And I think it's important that they're doing that at

1252
01:11:19,379 --> 01:11:21,659
Speaker 1: the same time that they're repairing this rupture because it

1253
01:11:21,699 --> 01:11:25,939
Speaker 1: will really make them sit down and think very deeply

1254
01:11:26,399 --> 01:11:29,149
Speaker 1: about what they want and how to move forward.

1255
01:11:33,899 --> 01:11:37,059
Speaker 2: You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after a

1256
01:11:37,099 --> 01:11:37,619
Speaker 2: short break.

1257
01:11:50,119 --> 01:11:52,299
Speaker 1: So Guy, we heard back from Anna and Chris and

1258
01:11:52,499 --> 01:11:54,259
Speaker 1: let's hear how things went for them this week.

1259
01:11:54,729 --> 01:11:56,329
Speaker 5: Hey, Guy and Lori, we just wanted to check back

1260
01:11:56,389 --> 01:11:58,969
Speaker 5: in with you guys after working on our assignments. Let's

1261
01:11:58,989 --> 01:11:59,969
Speaker 5: let you know how everything's going.

1262
01:12:01,349 --> 01:12:04,579
Speaker 4: So we have been doing the weekly feelings check-ins. We

1263
01:12:04,599 --> 01:12:07,619
Speaker 4: feel like they've been going very well. So it's been

1264
01:12:07,659 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 4: really nice that we are both able to talk uninterrupted

1265
01:12:11,459 --> 01:12:14,419
Speaker 4: about how a situation made us feel. We can do

1266
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,579
Speaker 4: like we've been heard and we can use that to

1267
01:12:17,599 --> 01:12:23,829
Speaker 4: spark positive and constructive conversations. We also have incorporated those

1268
01:12:23,869 --> 01:12:27,369
Speaker 4: feelings check-ins into our most recent.

1269
01:12:27,039 --> 01:12:28,219
Speaker 3: Couples therapy session.

1270
01:12:28,239 --> 01:12:31,579
Speaker 4: I had a really positive discussion about how an argument

1271
01:12:31,619 --> 01:12:34,419
Speaker 4: that we had earlier that morning affected both of us.

1272
01:12:34,999 --> 01:12:36,649
Speaker 3: And I feel like that went really well.

1273
01:12:38,329 --> 01:12:40,649
Speaker 5: It's also been nice because it's allowed us to both

1274
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:43,169
Speaker 5: feel like we've been heard and it's just been sparking

1275
01:12:43,189 --> 01:12:47,929
Speaker 5: really good conversation. We've also been doing the monthly financial meetings.

1276
01:12:48,229 --> 01:12:50,739
Speaker 5: Those are going really well. We've continued to discuss our

1277
01:12:50,799 --> 01:12:55,999
Speaker 5: boundaries and reevaluate them on a weekly basis. We currently

1278
01:12:56,019 --> 01:12:57,819
Speaker 5: have a whiteboard that we've set up in our living

1279
01:12:57,859 --> 01:13:01,359
Speaker 5: room and that allows us to show our monthly obligations

1280
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:05,419
Speaker 5: and allow us to visualize and discuss what we both

1281
01:13:05,459 --> 01:13:08,409
Speaker 5: have going on. So we were both a part of

1282
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,829
Speaker 5: a single conversation instead of two separate parts. And so

1283
01:13:11,869 --> 01:13:14,329
Speaker 5: we're both on the same page about everything that's going

1284
01:13:14,389 --> 01:13:15,069
Speaker 5: on financially.

1285
01:13:17,049 --> 01:13:21,359
Speaker 4: As far as the constitutions for our marriage. So we've

1286
01:13:21,379 --> 01:13:25,419
Speaker 4: been working on those. We both do want the main

1287
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:30,359
Speaker 4: theme of this to be better together and just really

1288
01:13:30,419 --> 01:13:33,419
Speaker 4: show how working as a team is just better in

1289
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:34,239
Speaker 4: so many ways.

1290
01:13:34,259 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 5: We just want to let you guys know that we

1291
01:13:36,559 --> 01:13:38,619
Speaker 5: really appreciate everything you guys have done to help us.

1292
01:13:39,119 --> 01:13:41,059
Speaker 5: And we're going to incorporate a lot of that stuff

1293
01:13:41,099 --> 01:13:43,849
Speaker 5: into our everyday life and set up some really good

1294
01:13:44,309 --> 01:13:46,549
Speaker 5: foundational conversations that we're able to continue.

1295
01:13:50,919 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 2: What I really liked about that from an overview perspective

1296
01:13:54,319 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 2: is that these tasks were incorporated, as they said, into

1297
01:13:58,139 --> 01:14:01,049
Speaker 2: all kinds of aspects of their lives. They brought it

1298
01:14:01,089 --> 01:14:04,169
Speaker 2: into the couples therapy. They have a whiteboard in the

1299
01:14:04,229 --> 01:14:08,029
Speaker 2: living room. They have these regular meetings set up. And

1300
01:14:08,069 --> 01:14:12,059
Speaker 2: so they're really trying to change their perspective on what

1301
01:14:12,139 --> 01:14:14,699
Speaker 2: their marriage is and what their couplehood is. And I

1302
01:14:14,759 --> 01:14:18,019
Speaker 2: love the theme they came up with, better together as

1303
01:14:18,059 --> 01:14:21,199
Speaker 2: a guide. for the constitution that they're working on.

1304
01:14:21,919 --> 01:14:25,019
Speaker 1: I think it's great that they're finally communicating because both

1305
01:14:25,039 --> 01:14:27,719
Speaker 1: of them had come into this relationship and this marriage

1306
01:14:28,019 --> 01:14:32,029
Speaker 1: with patterns around avoidance. So when he would get into

1307
01:14:32,089 --> 01:14:34,809
Speaker 1: debt when he was younger, things weren't really spoken about

1308
01:14:35,449 --> 01:14:37,649
Speaker 1: and he would try to self-soothe in these other ways.

1309
01:14:38,129 --> 01:14:41,369
Speaker 1: And I think with her, she also didn't know how

1310
01:14:41,409 --> 01:14:44,349
Speaker 1: to have these conversations. So I think they did quite

1311
01:14:44,389 --> 01:14:47,099
Speaker 1: a bit. They really started opening up the lines of

1312
01:14:47,159 --> 01:14:51,999
Speaker 1: communication around finances, around their feelings, around what is our marriage.

1313
01:14:52,499 --> 01:14:54,819
Speaker 1: And I hope that when they continue to work on

1314
01:14:54,839 --> 01:14:57,879
Speaker 1: the Constitution, that's going to take them even deeper with

1315
01:14:57,909 --> 01:15:00,549
Speaker 1: the communication and also with the accountability.

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01:15:01,149 --> 01:15:03,229
Speaker 2: Just one thing I want to highlight is sometimes we

1317
01:15:03,349 --> 01:15:06,369
Speaker 2: make points with couples that they really need to make

1318
01:15:06,409 --> 01:15:10,129
Speaker 2: a course correction. And we don't often say what the

1319
01:15:10,199 --> 01:15:13,059
Speaker 2: size of the correction needs to be. But sometimes it

1320
01:15:13,099 --> 01:15:14,959
Speaker 2: needs to be big. And when I'm hearing that they

1321
01:15:15,019 --> 01:15:18,699
Speaker 2: went from having the secretive credit card debt where things

1322
01:15:18,719 --> 01:15:22,319
Speaker 2: were all handled in private and in secret to whiteboard

1323
01:15:22,399 --> 01:15:26,759
Speaker 2: in living room, that's a big correction. So that also

1324
01:15:27,299 --> 01:15:29,379
Speaker 2: is very heartening to me because when you really get

1325
01:15:29,419 --> 01:15:31,979
Speaker 2: that you need to make a big change and you

1326
01:15:31,999 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 2: both get it and you're both doing it, it's a

1327
01:15:34,519 --> 01:15:35,199
Speaker 2: positive sign.

1328
01:15:36,349 --> 01:15:38,129
Speaker 1: And putting it in the living room where you can't

1329
01:15:38,169 --> 01:15:40,729
Speaker 1: really avoid it. So it's not like, oh, it's this

1330
01:15:40,809 --> 01:15:43,049
Speaker 1: file somewhere and we're never going to look at it.

1331
01:15:43,589 --> 01:15:46,429
Speaker 1: They're really saying we are putting this right out in

1332
01:15:46,449 --> 01:15:49,239
Speaker 1: the open so we cannot be in denial about this.

1333
01:15:49,599 --> 01:15:51,819
Speaker 1: We are going to put everything there where we both

1334
01:15:51,859 --> 01:15:53,379
Speaker 1: can see it and there are going to be no

1335
01:15:53,459 --> 01:15:54,419
Speaker 1: secrets anymore.

1336
01:15:54,899 --> 01:15:56,819
Speaker 2: And I agree with you about the Constitution. It's a

1337
01:15:56,859 --> 01:16:00,399
Speaker 2: work in progress. And I really hope that the principle

1338
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,879
Speaker 2: of these changes will stay with them, which is we

1339
01:16:03,959 --> 01:16:05,219
Speaker 2: have to be a partnership.

1340
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:08,739
Speaker 1: And part of that too is how do we resolve conflicts?

1341
01:16:09,299 --> 01:16:12,259
Speaker 1: I loved hearing that they were able to use the

1342
01:16:12,339 --> 01:16:16,619
Speaker 1: feelings exercise to then bring that into the couples therapy

1343
01:16:16,719 --> 01:16:18,699
Speaker 1: and then be able to talk about an argument that

1344
01:16:18,739 --> 01:16:21,309
Speaker 1: they had and both feel like that was a really

1345
01:16:21,349 --> 01:16:22,509
Speaker 1: productive conversation.

1346
01:16:22,869 --> 01:16:26,149
Speaker 2: For our listeners, that is something you can do as well.

1347
01:16:26,189 --> 01:16:30,129
Speaker 2: When you find yourself getting into conflict, pausing to express

1348
01:16:30,349 --> 01:16:33,589
Speaker 2: and listen without interruption to what the feelings are that

1349
01:16:33,629 --> 01:16:36,179
Speaker 2: are coming up for each person can be a very

1350
01:16:36,259 --> 01:16:39,939
Speaker 2: positive way to redirect the conversation into being more productive.

1351
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 1: When we think about what was going on here, there

1352
01:16:42,779 --> 01:16:45,839
Speaker 1: was this deceit, there was this betrayal. But really what

1353
01:16:45,879 --> 01:16:49,079
Speaker 1: it is, is there are lots of unexpressed feelings that

1354
01:16:49,339 --> 01:16:52,399
Speaker 1: got people into a situation in the first place. And

1355
01:16:52,419 --> 01:16:54,839
Speaker 1: so I'm really glad they're dealing with what they actually

1356
01:16:54,869 --> 01:16:56,729
Speaker 1: need to deal with going forward.

1357
01:17:00,869 --> 01:17:03,719
Speaker 2: Next week, we're checking in with Lauren. who came to

1358
01:17:03,789 --> 01:17:05,849
Speaker 2: us feeling a lot of shame around her lack of

1359
01:17:05,909 --> 01:17:09,389
Speaker 2: sexual experience, to hear how she's doing one year later.

1360
01:17:09,409 --> 01:17:13,269
Speaker 3: I actually met someone. I met a guy who I really,

1361
01:17:13,309 --> 01:17:13,829
Speaker 3: really liked.

1362
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:15,629
Speaker 6: And for the first time in my life, I was

1363
01:17:15,729 --> 01:17:19,379
Speaker 6: able to actually tell this guy what I liked about him,

1364
01:17:19,419 --> 01:17:21,599
Speaker 6: what I didn't like. You know, if he did something

1365
01:17:21,659 --> 01:17:24,959
Speaker 6: I didn't like, I brought it to his attention in

1366
01:17:24,979 --> 01:17:28,169
Speaker 6: a gentle way, out like pointing the finger. And he

1367
01:17:28,329 --> 01:17:31,829
Speaker 6: actually appreciated how I communicated with him.

1368
01:17:32,609 --> 01:17:35,649
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1369
01:17:35,729 --> 01:17:38,589
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please

1370
01:17:38,629 --> 01:17:41,309
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1371
01:17:41,589 --> 01:17:44,829
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1372
01:17:44,869 --> 01:17:46,029
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1373
01:17:46,699 --> 01:17:48,799
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1374
01:17:49,259 --> 01:17:56,039
Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is

1375
01:17:56,099 --> 01:18:00,619
Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional

1376
01:18:00,699 --> 01:18:05,289
Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher.

1377
01:18:05,769 --> 01:18:10,389
Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton.

1378
01:18:10,969 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric.

1379
01:18:14,999 --> 01:18:17,079
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session.

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01:18:17,839 --> 01:18:20,459
Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.