WEBVTT - From the Vault: Before You Could Remember, Part 3 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:08.119 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:09.560 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.040 And I am Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday. The 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.000 vault door it creaketh open, and then we go for 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.400 part three of our Before You Could Remember series. This 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.800 originally published on April eighteenth, twenty twenty three, and here 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:27.960 it is again, Hope you enjoy. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:33.600 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.360 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:39.720 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.040 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back finally with 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.440 part three of our series on childhood amnesia. We had 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.040 a bit of an interruption in the series last week 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:52.519 to first of all, to some sick days and then 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.840 to a scheduled interview. But now we return to finish 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.400 off the series, so I thought we should do a 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.960 brief refresher on the stuff we talked about in the 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.840 past couple of episodes here. So the term childhood amnesia 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.399 refers to a couple of different facts, which are first 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:14.440 of all the fact that most adults cannot conjure any genuine, 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:19.679 first hand episodic memories from before roughly the age of three, 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.800 and there are some minor variations in that age horizon 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.160 that have been observed to correlate with variables like gender. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.280 Girls tend to have slightly earlier memories culture. Different cultures 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.840 have on average different memory horizons, but on average we 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.840 can say most people's earliest memories tend to be somewhere 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.920 in the range of three years old, or between three 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.720 or four. And then the other fact is that once 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.680 we do start having memories, for the next four to 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.840 five years after that, we have fewer memories than would 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.400 be predicted by the normal rate of forgetting. That holds 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.720 true throughout the rest of your life. So first you've 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.640 got no memories usually, and then you've got fewer memories, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.720 and then finally the regular rate of forgetting kicks in, 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.720 maybe somewhere around seven or eight or so. Now, some 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.000 people do claim to have much earlier memories, and we've 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.000 heard from some of them in email. Even some people 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.120 claim to have memories even up to and before birth. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.560 And you know, it's impossible to rule that out. It's 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.200 possible in some cases people do have those memories, but 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.600 these claims also have to be considered alongside the fact 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.200 that research shows it is very easy to create the 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.680 false impression of a childhood memory, spurred by all kinds 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.120 of external prompting, anything from a photo, whether a real 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.720 photo or a doctored one, a story told by a parent. 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.880 And it's clear that these false memories implanted later in life, 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.560 in many cases feel completely genuine to us, even if 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.760 they are fabricated purely for the purpose of an experiment. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.680 Yeah. Absolutely, so we want to continue to drive that 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:04.400 home that to whatever extent a memory is accurate, augmented, fabricated, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:11.280 et cetera, that doesn't take away from the subjective reality 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.880 of the memory and the importance of the memory, or 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:16.680 the or the pain of the memory. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:18.640 Well, sure, you know, one of the ways I would 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.040 put it is that like the fact that someone has 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.800 a false memory, as in they have a memory of 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.320 an event that did not actually happen, does not mean 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.400 that they're like lying it, you know, like we literally 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.800 cannot tell the difference between real memories and false memories 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:34.960 in many cases. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:36.760 Right and I think it's safe to say that the 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.640 many memories, if not all memories, are false to some degree. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.760 Right now. In previous parts, we also talked about some 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.960 of the experimental methods used to test for memory at 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.120 early ages, including you know, straightforward earliest memory prompts, tell 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.400 me your earliest memory, things like the word Q test, 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.440 so tell me a memory associated with the following word. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.360 We use the example of jar and so forth. Now, 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:07.240 some research we discussed in previous episodes made a pretty 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.200 convincing case, at least to me, that the explanation is 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:16.479 not that the brain is incapable of forming memories before 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.880 the average age of three or four. One of the 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.839 other studies we talked about included a scenario in which 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.440 three year olds could produce details about recent events in 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.560 their lives when interviewed along with their mothers, showing that 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.920 they did have memories of recent things that had happened, 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.160 and these memories could be elicited with cues from parents. 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.200 Though it seems in a lot of cases children this 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.400 young will not offer details from memory spontaneously, but if 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:46.960 you kind of coax it out of them, they can 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.440 produce details on their own that show they do remember things. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.560 Yeah, plusive mom is there to help, you know, right. 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.040 But when those very same kids were interviewed years later, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.159 after having been able to produce memories about recent events 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.120 at age three, between the ages of seven and nine, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.880 many of those memories of early events were lost, and 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:09.800 a lot more were lost by the ages of eight 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:11.839 and nine than were lost by the age of seven. 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.840 So there appears to be in later childhood kind of 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.039 a period of rapid massive forgetting, where a lot of 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.400 our earliest memories kind of vanish, like memories of a dream. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.560 So the big question is why is it that many 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.599 of these earliest memories, or what memories exist of earliest events, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.080 cannot be produced later in life, either later in childhood 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.240 or especially in adulthood. There have been a lot of 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.120 attempts to answer this question. There, of course, is still 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.200 a lot of controversy about it. It is not a 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:47.320 settled debate. But many of the proposed answers are based 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.560 in the developing structure of the brain. And while I 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:56.040 think there is absolutely something to these arguments, the neurodevelopmental 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.839 structural arguments, they don't exactly mean that the immature brain 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:05.039 cannot make memories yet, because again we as we've seen, 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.159 sometimes you can get younger children to provide details about 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:15.120 recent events, and also young children can show examples of learning, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.880 say learning how to manipulate a simple mechanism in a 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.960 toy in experiments to show that they do have memories 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.520 that in some cases last for weeks or months even 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.680 before the age of three, so there is some remembering 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.160 going on. Instead, it seems to me more likely that 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.880 what's happening here is the memories that the brain makes 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.160 at age one or two are prone to more rapid 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.720 forgetting than the kinds of memories we would make at 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.640 age eleven or twelve or Also, those memories might be 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.240 different than the memories made in later life in a 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.920 way that makes them more difficult to retrieve after we 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.760 age passed that memory horizon. So for the neurodevelopmental structural 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.920 arguments we looked at, one paper in Part two are 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.760 arguing that the hippocampal memory system is actually very active 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.880 in the first few years of life. That's the normal 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.440 memory system. A lot is going on there when you're 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.480 you know, two years old or so. But this paper 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.400 argued that instead of making memories of the kind that 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.800 will be stored for the rest of your life, what 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.280 it's primarily doing with the processing of information from experiences 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.760 is learning how to learn. And complementary to this, I 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.120 think one structural developmental explanation has been offered is that 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.680 a lot of early autobiographical memories may be lost due 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:40.240 to the rapid rate of neurogenesis during childhood. So as 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.360 new brain cells are formed, especially in the hippocampus, this 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.400 may erode the stability of the structural basis of existing memories. So, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.440 you know, the hippo campus is developing rapidly. You're sort 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.960 of like, you know, rebuilding the house constantly in real time, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.480 in which case the rooms that existed, you know, a 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.240 year ago might not really exist anymore as rooms down 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:04.640 the road. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:09.400 It's almost heartbreaking to think about that. It's gotten memories. 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.160 The house is getting bigger. You know, you can put 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.000 more in it, but you're also dismantling as you do. 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.480 Yeah, and I guess it's like you're thinking of it 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.800 in terms of the young child. It's like the house 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.680 that is being built is going to be magnificent as well, 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:25.840 and it's built on the bones of the house that 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:31.120 came before. So you can't get too sentimental about that 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.560 which is being lost as a necessary part of the 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.880 child's maturing. But I still reserve the right to cry 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.400 a little bit. Oh yeah, yeah. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.079 Well, if you're recalled, I got interested in this whole 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.280 idea because of a story about my daughter, who is 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.720 actually I said five months last time. You know, she's 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.040 coming up on six months now. Wow, And we were 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.720 trying to figure out Okay, so we've been really making 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.640 her laugh a lot by dropping a cloth on her face. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.520 She thinks this is hilarious. It just layer down on 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.200 the blanket and drop the cloth from above, and we 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.480 were like, is she going to remember that she thought 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.520 this was funny? Will she be able to explain why 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.200 she thought it was funny when she's older, And unfortunately 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.800 it breaks my heart. I think the answer is probably not. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.520 Still, these are prime years to just kill it as 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.920 a dad standout. Yeah, so it just keep developing that material. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.040 But anyway, so while the while the overall causes of 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.800 childhood amnesia are still being debated in the scientific literature, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.720 I'm very one over that at least one of the 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.360 major causes probably is the neurodevelopmental issue we talked about 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.800 in the last episode, the hippocampus coming online and developing. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.000 Of course, it also seems plausible that it's a phenomenon 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.640 with multiple contributing causes, and maybe some are based not 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.960 just in the physical development of the brain, but possibly 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.520 in some more externally visible developmental milestones, maybe based in 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.720 the environment and things we learn, And so I thought, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.280 before we move away from this topic, we should explore 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.120 a few of those ideas as well. So another factor 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:14.720 I've read about linked to childhood amnesia, possibly explaining elements 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.679 of it, is language. This seems like an obvious place 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.680 to go, the language and the linguistic environment in which 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.160 a child grows up. What if the extent to which 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.880 we record experiences as memories, in the form in which 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.280 they're stored, and our later ability to retrieve and make 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.199 sense of those memories is in some way dependent on language. 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.760 The typical childhood memory horizon tends to come pretty much 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.319 right in the middle of a period of rapid development 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.200 of language skills and the acquisition of vocabulary. So could 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.160 it be that the adult capacity for memory greatly depends 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.640 on the use of words and concepts that we gain 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:01.880 during this language acquisition period. Could be coincidence, but developing 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.680 skills and manipulating different types of subjects and predicates I 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.120 think could play a role in the onset of autobiographical 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.800 memories that persist over time. Because language obviously plays a 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.800 major role in how we as adults remember and tell 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.720 autobiographical memories. Like you ever notice how when you tell 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.920 a story from memory, you often end up using the 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.160 same or similar words. 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:28.200 To do so. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.480 Why is that? I mean? Even if so, you can 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.800 understand how if you are like reporting speech in a memory, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:36.560 you would want to use the same words to do 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.000 so because you're reporting what somebody said. But so you're 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.040 reporting a non verbal event, just like a walk you 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.480 went on and things you saw. Very often you use 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.520 the same or similar words to do so, or at 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.960 least I think I do, and most people I notice 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:50.920 seem to do. Would this be your experience? 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.120 Also, yeah, and I do. It kind of brings me 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.679 back to the topic of Dad stand up comedian because 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.839 I wonder, like to a lot extent, it's like you 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.679 keep retelling a story more or less the same way 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.680 because you know what's really working. You know, like what, yeah, 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.200 what makes it more dramatic, what makes it more funny? 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.440 Which you know, how you can frame it in a 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.200 way that have also brings to mind, like scenes from 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.839 movies or something. So yeah, I think there's a lot 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:20.440 of that going on. 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.560 Oh well, it's interesting you bring up the role of 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.840 entertainment in the language used to relate a memory that'll 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.640 come up again in just a minute. But yeah, so 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.280 I think I would acknowledge that certain types of vocabulary 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.679 might actually make the difference between the ability to coherently 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.080 remember an event and recall it years later versus that, 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.320 you know, the characteristics that often come up when people 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.400 are describing their very earliest memories, even the ones we've 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.240 heard of from listeners in the email we got after 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.880 the first couple of parts, like the kind of rare, fragmented, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.880 decontextualized sensory memories that people often produce as their very 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.960 earliest Those have a very different and character than a 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.720 lot of later memories, and that may it seems to 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.120 me like those differences could correlate with not really having 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.520 the language to organize them as memories at the time 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.719 they're formed. But if language does play an important role 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.240 in establishing the capacity for long term memories about your life, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.160 what if it's not just conceptual vocabulary. Another way language 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.679 could have something to do with memory in early childhood 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:30.880 is narrative. So when you are asked to explain a 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.160 memory from childhood, for example, you know, what's the first 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.600 time you can remember swimming in the ocean. You could 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.240 say I was in Florida, I was about three, or 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.360 you could say, well, I was with my mom and 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.040 dad and we were in Florida and the sand was white, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.280 and I remember I saw a crab and it scared me, 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.160 but my dad told me it was safe and the 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.280 crab wouldn't chase me. And then the water was cold, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.600 it was colder than the bath. And then salt water 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.760 got in my nose and I didn't like that at first, 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.120 but then I did. And then later we went to 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.840 dinner at a restaurant and my dad got steamed crabs, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.760 and he remembered the crab on the beach, and he 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.839 kept teasing me. He made the crab creep up on 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:08.680 me on the table. 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.240 Well, is this an actual memory for you? 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:12.800 No, I just made it up, But it seems like 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:13.319 it could. 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.640 Be, because I mean, you do have a certain fascinating 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.640 with crabs. So if this were a legitimate memory, perhaps Joe, 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:25.400 perhaps we're retrieving this memory through the exercise of podcasting. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.920 This explains everything. It's how I got corm and brained, 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.000 and now it's just leaking out in a made up story. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.520 Right here, but no, so, at least in the way 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.040 you tell stories from childhood, there is a wide range 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.600 of stylistic flexibility. You could mention things in a dry 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.640 informational manner, reporting just where you were and what happened, 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.760 or you could offer information more in the kind of 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:54.080 narrative style that people enjoy and make meaning out of 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.760 when they tell stories to each other. And you could 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.440 call this distinction sort of reporting versus remen missing, you know, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.600 with the storytelling being more social in nature and more 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.920 entertainment focused, honestly, So that comes back to your thing 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:13.000 about having a certain format of the memory that is 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.440 based around the language you've found is best to express 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.120 it for entertainment value or for communicating what you're trying 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:21.800 to get across. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.640 Yeah, Yeah, And exaggeration, I find is also a tool 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.800 you often see employed sometimes, I guess at later ages 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:38.160 you see it used intentionally, intentionally exaggerating the emotional context 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.640 of an event in order to make a better story 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.920 out of it. Though I've also seen much younger children 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.600 do that. I remember, and this was like a birthday 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.440 party I took my son to and there's a slipping slide. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.480 Tensions were running high, I think, and an adult went 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.760 down the slip and slide, and then the birthday Blay exclaimed, 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.720 this is a disaster, and see'd rather perturbed by the 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:07.240 whole scenario. I don't know how that experience matured or 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.560 state or it sticks stuck around as a memory, But 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.800 like that kind of exaggeration I can imagine could make 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.680 it if it was truly viewed as a disaster, as 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.280 a catastrophe of a non child going down slip and slide, Well. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.680 Just think about yeah, if that child later tells that story, 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.200 all the different ways that the story could be loaded. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.480 I mean, it could be loaded with like humor, sort 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.200 of ironic reflection on how one feels as a child, 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.320 or I don't know, maybe if you mature a certain way, 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.240 you might still take it very seriously and be upset 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.880 about the slipping slide. But there's all this loading in 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.240 stories that is not just merely reporting the facts about 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.760 an event, but to make the facts reported make sense 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.120 within some broader story. You might call this having the 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.040 facts contexted. That's how it was expressed in the abstract 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.720 of a paper I was looking at. But you also 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:03.800 make evalue a statements and implications about those facts, So 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.560 not just why happened, but I felt X about why. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.800 And I've read numerous sources alleging that there could be 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.320 a link between the narrative reminiscing style of say the 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.920 family or the environment in which a child grows up 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.320 and the age at which those children form lasting memories. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.200 I was reading about this in one article in the 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:32.320 Berkeley Greater Good magazine by Gene Shinsky and another article 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:36.480 in the BBC from twenty sixteen by Zaria Gorvitt. These 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:41.720 were essentially making the link that some researchers think more elaborate, 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:48.920 coherent narratives could cause children to have memories that last longer, 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:53.040 and one example was cited in that BBC article. It 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.080 was a paper done by the Cornell University psychology professor 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.320 Chi Wang, who was the author of a paper called 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.760 culture Effects on Adult's Earliest Childhood Recollection and Self Description 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.000 Implications for the Relation between Memory and the Self published 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.880 in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in two 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.600 thousand and one, and this found that by comparing childhood 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:22.000 stories told by Chinese and American college students, American students' 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.359 stories tended to be longer and more elaborate with more 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:30.119 self focused evaluations, whereas the Chinese stories were more restrained 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.159 and factual. And also the average earliest memories of the 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.560 American students were a little bit earlier. And this personally 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.560 squared with Wang's experience of growing up in China, where 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.480 she said that the cultural norm was that there was 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.879 less emphasis on stories of early childhood memories, and she 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.560 gives a quote to the BBC saying, if society is 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.680 telling you those memories are important to you, you'll hold 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.920 on to them. And this also relates to cross cultural studies, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.359 saying that some of the examples of the people on 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.879 average the earliest childhood memories tend to be people of 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.280 the Maori culture, and these same studies find that Maori 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.680 families tend to place a lot of emphasis on elaborate 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.919 narrative storytelling in the past. So I thought this was 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.400 interesting that this could connect to some of the differences 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.399 we've already read about and I think talked about in 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:25.280 the first episode about cross cultural differences in the age 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.400 of the earliest memories, and also gender differences, because there 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.920 have been some studies showing that girls tend to have 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:38.800 slightly earlier memories on average than boys, and that girls 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:43.800 in childhood tend to relate stories in a more contexted 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.920 and evaluative manner. But whatever the particulars of how it works, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.000 it's certainly not hard for me to imagine that the 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.399 storytelling environment in which you grow up plays a large 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.679 role on what and how you remember things from your 0:19:58.680 --> 0:19:59.680 earliest childhood. 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:05.080 Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating and something also just to keep 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.920 in mind too that I remember one of the sources 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.320 I quoted in maybe the first episode mentioned, and that 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.600 is that there's no right or wrong way like the 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.320 earlier memories of childhood versus later memories, neither one is 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.720 healthier or more correct. The brain remembers what it needs 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:23.760 to remember. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.040 Right, And while playing on that, one way to interpret 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.440 these findings, if they are correct, is that maybe by 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:35.080 inhabiting an environment where there is a lot of elaborate 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:40.600 narrative storytelling that involves a lot of contexting of events 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.920 and including evaluations, that is an environment that tells the 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.000 child that they need to remember things in that manner 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.080 and thus makes them easier to retrieve and relate later on. 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:54.879 Of course, the interesting thing being that again this is 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.760 all coming back to autobiographical memories, the kind of memories 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.880 for like event in your life that like you can 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:06.600 later retell as stories. And this doesn't necessarily correspond to 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:10.159 other types of memory, like say, memory of how to 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.119 do something, you know, memories that we often think of 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:26.439 not as quote memory but as learning. All right, So, 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.480 the language based memory development idea has been around for 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.199 a long time, and it has its proponents, though I 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.600 think also it has its critics, and I don't think 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.800 we should place too much emphasis on things like the 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:43.760 role of language, because one big reason here is that 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.480 some analogs to infantile amnesia have been discovered in animals 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.879 like rats. You know, So there are rat experiments showing 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:56.240 kind of similar patterns of forgetting of the earliest experiences 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.639 as rats age into adulthood. Rats of course never acquire 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.440 langug which, but show some similar patterns. So it's clear 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.280 that language is not the deciding factor, but may play 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.359 a role in, say the timing of different stages of 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.639 memory acquisition. Another older idea that might still have something 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.000 to do with the with childhood amnesia. What about the 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:23.280 role of what researchers have called the cognitive self. I 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.320 was reading about this in a paper called on Resolving 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.720 the Enigma of Infantile Amnesia by Mark Howe and Mary 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.399 Courage published in Psychological Bulletin in nineteen ninety three, and 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.480 they discussed the idea of what if The crucial factor 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.600 in the establishment of lasting autobiographical memories is the development 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.840 of the concept of I and me, related in a 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.159 way to the concept of theory of mind. Understanding that 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.280 your mind is different from the minds of others, that 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:52.800 you know things other people don't know, and have thoughts 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.840 and feelings other people don't have, and that they likewise 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.560 know things and have thoughts and feelings that you cannot 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.440 share in unless they tell you. Under this proposal, it's 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.840 not until we have mastered the concept of a self 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:09.159 different from others that we're able to organize our memories 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:13.280 into a sensical form that can be retrieved across time. 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:18.000 How Encourage right in their conclusion quote, A series of 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.080 significant developmental events take place when infants are between eighteen 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.240 and thirty months of age that prepare them to talk 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:30.440 about personally experienced events. First, at about eighteen months of age, 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.480 infants learn to recognize their features in the mirror. The 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.720 next acquisition is a more advanced representation of the self 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:40.239 reflected in the pronomial reference to the self as I 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.360 and me. In the early months of the second year, 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.680 finally the child learns to talk about immediate and then 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:51.359 more distant past events in narrative the language of autobiographical memory. 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:56.480 Both narrative and autobiographical memory continue to develop in structure, organization, 0:23:56.640 --> 0:24:00.000 and content over the preschool years, But by that time, 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.439 infantile amnesia is indeed a phenomenon of the past. And 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:06.680 so this one's a little bit different because this one 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:09.919 does not depend while it's related to language, Their idea 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:13.840 of the concept of the cognitive self does not rely 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:16.879 entirely on language, and they think there are ways that 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:20.639 the cognitive self can be demonstrated before a child acquires 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:24.320 the words in which to express it. But they think 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:27.480 that the child needs a concept of self and I 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.320 separate from the world and the events in the world 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.000 in order to put the memories into a form that 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:36.159 can later be accessed and expressed. 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:39.400 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because it sounds like without that, 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:43.160 there's no there's no like weight, there's no structure. It's 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:49.639 just like memories of potentially of just environments and groups 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:53.560 of people without the actual connection of like this, this 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:55.919 is a value because I am at the center of it. 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:59.520 That's right, And that would connect again to the ideas 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:04.000 about rative and maybe the important role of say, evaluative 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.679 statements about memories helping us to be able to recall 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:09.200 them later. 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.320 Yeah the child is yeah, oh sorry, Yeah, the child 0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:16.160 is like, it's nice, but what is in it for me? Yeah? 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:17.240 I remember it. 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.560 So in the end, when I'm looking at all these explanations, 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.159 I don't know. Of course, I'm you know, I'm not 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:27.959 a neuroscientist or a developmental psychologist, so I don't pretend 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:30.520 to be expressing expertise on this, But I just say, personally, 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:34.680 I feel pretty convinced by the neurodevelopmental arguments, the ones 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:39.040 about the development of the hippocampal memory system, that there's 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:42.960 clearly some kind of like structural change going on in 0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:46.760 the brain in the early years of life, and this 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:50.159 this plays a major role in why we don't retain 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.840 all these memories until later life. As far as these 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:58.359 explanations based in language and the cognitive self and stuff, 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:03.000 I I don't know it. It seems like the evidence 0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:05.280 for them is a little bit softer, But I'm very 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:08.000 interested in them, and they seem plausible to me at least. 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:11.480 M yeah, yeah, But basically all the papers I read 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:14.080 on this subject, or you know the old cliche, they're 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.400 calling for more research, like you know, widely acknowledging this 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:19.960 is not a settled question. And so you know that 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:22.560 we have some interesting ideas, but ultimately we don't know 0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:26.760 for sure why childhood amnesia happens, and maybe more research 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:27.560 could help settle it. 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.800 Now, we've discussed false memories a good bit in these episodes, 0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:35.840 you know, talking about very early childhood memories that are 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:41.000 to some degree falsified, unaugmented, And you know, I think 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.000 it's it's easy to mostly focus on the potential pitfalls 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:47.000 of false memories or or to land somewhere on sort 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:49.800 of like the neutral impact that they may have. But 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:54.560 I also wanted to tackle the question of just like 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:58.639 why is it also advantageous to have false memories? Like 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.399 why would this it all be a dapt Is there 0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:04.320 an upside to this mental ability or is this just 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.480 kind of junk? Is this just kind of a byproduct 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:08.160 of the way that our brains have developed. 0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:11.000 Well, I would say that this is not the only 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:14.359 way in which our brains consistently generate false beliefs, and 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:17.200 I think when our brains do that, they're usually doing 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:17.960 it for a reason. 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:23.280 Yeah, yeah, and yeah. Certainly this ties into larger issues 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:26.880 of how we falsify beliefs, how we falsify memories, how 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:32.000 we obsess over perhaps impractical ideas of what the future 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:36.639 might hold. You know, I'm reminded of a couple of 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.280 quotes here. I believe it was Alan Rogerley who commented that, 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.720 or he may have been quoting somebody else actually, that 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:50.760 repetition and recollection are the same force, but in different directions. 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:56.159 I remember too, I think our Scott Baker commenting that 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:58.960 that science fiction and fantasy kind of both fulfill the 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:02.080 same purpose, going either into the past or into the future, 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:07.200 sort of constructing an unrealistic but far fetched version of 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.159 the future based on where we are now, and then 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:11.119 the other is a version of the past that is 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:17.320 equally fantastic, illogical, and obviously not true, but telling about 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:19.920 where we are in the present. So, you know, we're 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:26.120 these strange creatures that see ourselves as occupying this space, 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:30.919 this now, and remembering what came before, predicting what is 0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:33.399 about to come, and then it's kind of open to 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.240 discussion if there is actually a now point, like are 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:39.360 we actually there? Or is that also a construction of 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:44.400 the past. But any rate, I wanted to see what 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:47.360 experts were saying about this. So I was reading a 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:49.720 paper titled false Memories, What the Hell Are They For? 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:53.760 By Aaron J. Newman and D. Stephen Lindsay, published in 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:57.120 Applied Cognitive Psychology back in two thousand and nine, and 0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.320 I thought, the author's made some good points here, and 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.640 a number of these are going to be things that 0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:05.840 you know, we've discussed on the show before, or I 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:10.120 guess generally understood about memory in the brain. But first 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:12.280 of all, this is all part of mental our mental 0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:15.400 time travel abilities that enable us to experience our memories 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.320 of the past with a feeling of subjective clarity, while 0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:23.760 also enabling us to produce mental models of potential futures. Quote. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:30.120 Recalling an autobiographical experience involves piecing together activated memorial information 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:33.640 while at the same time making inferences based on other 0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:39.000 information available to us. Biases, stereotypes, and expectations that act 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:42.520 on our current thinking also act on inferences that we 0:29:42.600 --> 0:29:46.440 make about mental events arising from the past. So Obviously, 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:50.200 given this system, failures are inevitable. Memory failures are inevitable 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:55.000 false memories, along with inaccurate or unlikely ruminated scenarios of 0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:58.640 the future. This is all just part of living with 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:03.200 our human understands of reality, and so various methods can 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:06.200 be used and have been studied to produce false memories 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.880 of events. The authors point out. These include suggestion via 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:16.600 imagination exercises, the use of photographs, dream interpretation, guided imagery, 0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:19.680 and paraphrasing. I mean, even this, you know, kind of 0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:23.080 joking example that we busted out earlier of you bringing 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:26.720 up a hypothetical entirely made up memory of childhood about 0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:29.920 crabs in the end, and it was so loaded with crabs. 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:33.920 It's a relatively easy exercise for one to then turn 0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:36.600 that back on the person who created and saying, well, 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:39.560 is that completely made up? What does that say about you? 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:41.680 Why did you bring up the crabs so many times? 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.239 You know? And you can begin to build on that. 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.360 Well, yes, And if you took that same story and said, hey, 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:50.200 you know, your parents told us the story about when 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:51.760 you went to the beach when you were little. Do 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:55.960 you remember this, well, you might not necessarily at first 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.160 or you might think, well, maybe I do, and then 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.840 over time that could very easily turn into what feels 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:03.400 like a real memory for you. 0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:06.480 Yeah, and it also now there are a number of 0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.640 factors to keep in mind too. It's worth noting that 0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:14.920 the results and experiments involving the creation or the fostering 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:19.000 of false recollections, it depends on the degree to which 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.600 a memory is falsified. For example, in many of these experiments, 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:25.920 you'll find examples where they'll find out about an actual 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:28.600 childhood memory like they would in this case, say talk 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:30.920 to one of your parents and ask about your earliest 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:36.080 speech encounter and then use that in the construction of 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.800 a false memory. And then you also have to take 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:42.000 into account the weight of the memory that is being 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:46.920 built up or augmented. So it's one thing, for example, 0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.240 for me to suggest, yeah, maybe you were really fascinated 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:52.600 by crabs like you like you were in this false 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:56.400 story of childhood. It's another to say, you know, maybe 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:58.520 that they had a you know, just you were profoundly 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:01.280 frightened by the crabs, and this totally shaped to you. 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:02.920 You know, it's like, how how much weight are you 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:05.920 putting on the memory. For instance, one study reference in 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:10.760 this paper had high results of memory inception when you 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.600 were trying to get them to remember a childhood prank. Now, 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.760 you know, nothing too severe, but you know something that 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:20.200 where it's not going to like shake the core of 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:23.880 their being or really mess around too many understandings of self. 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:27.240 Is just like, let's let's generate this this memory of 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:29.720 this prank that probably didn't actually occur. 0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:33.320 Yes, So, if I'm understanding right, this might imply it's 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:38.520 easier to generate a false memory for an event that 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.959 is not really like, does not shake the core of 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:45.080 your what you how you would characterize your childhood, but 0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:48.640 rather for a kind of like weird, quirky, funny little 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.360 event that doesn't really change anything about your life. 0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:54.760 Right, And of course, a lot of the very sorts 0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.840 of memories, early childhood memories that we've been discussing here, 0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.440 the kind that are sort of shared among families, are 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:03.520 exactly the sort of memory. You know. They're not necessarily 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.960 profound or anything. They're amusing, they're fun, and therefore it's 0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:11.960 easy to grab onto it now. The authors also point 0:33:12.000 --> 0:33:14.760 out that social factors such as group membership in the 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:19.280 media as well, can seemingly influence memories like this as 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:25.120 well quote socially driven distortions in memory. These and may 0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:28.800 have several benefits for the individuals, such as improving social 0:33:28.840 --> 0:33:34.120 relationships within a group, or they may improve social group coherence. 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:39.560 So false memories can be self enhancing in many ways, 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:42.680 but they can also be group enhancing. And in this 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.600 we're getting we're speaking broadly beyond merely like childhood memories, 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.240 but even getting into things where say you were a 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:52.840 part of a group, you join a group, where memories 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:57.960 of say even paranormal experiences have value. They bring you 0:33:58.040 --> 0:34:00.520 closer to the people in a group, or they enhance 0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:04.360 the overall connectivity of the group. 0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:07.280 This is exactly what I was going to hypothesize earlier 0:34:07.320 --> 0:34:09.560 when you were talking about so I brought up you know, 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:13.400 there are other ways that our brain consistently produces false beliefs, 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:17.840 and there you would suspect that there's probably an adaptive 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.239 reason for doing that, like there's survival benefit, that's why 0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:23.640 our brains work that way. And my guess was going 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:27.600 to be social function that they're that the same way 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:31.880 that you know, we can have not false memories, but 0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:37.160 false beliefs about the external world. These can easily be 0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:43.239 induced through a concept known as identity protective cognition. You know, 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:47.320 people will reason in ways that are not strictly logical, 0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:51.279 and will come to conclusions that they would find to 0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:54.200 be false if they were disinterested in the issue. But 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:58.920 there is some social identity reason for coming to that belief. 0:34:59.040 --> 0:35:02.239 You know, in order to fit in with my social group, 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:05.120 I need to be the kind of person that believes X. 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:08.239 So I actually I do believe X, and it is right. 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:12.520 And I think the same could easily be true of memories. 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:16.320 It probably matters more for your survival that you're getting 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.000 along good with your group than that, like, you actually 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.920 remember what happened last Tuesday a year ago correctly. So 0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:26.360 if there's a way to remember that event incorrectly, but 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:29.160 that would be sort of like fun to share as 0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:31.560 a group together to tell that story and I'll bond 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:34.239 and all feel good about each other, Well then maybe 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:35.040 you'll go that way. 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:38.920 Yeah, yeah, And I mean all this makes sense, I think, 0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:42.400 because of course humans are highly social creatures. We've talked 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:46.160 about this before. This has had an enormous impact on 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:49.080 the human animal So is it any surprise that we 0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:51.680 help each other remember events of our past. Is it 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.640 any surprise that these memories may be distorted for the 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:58.440 betterment of one's own integration with a group or the 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:01.800 overall coherence of the group, Because for the social animal, 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.279 the group is not it's not just nice to have 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:07.920 like the group is survival. Being able to bond with 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:12.799 the group has uh has a real adaptive advantage, and 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:15.919 may and and and being able to fit in. Even 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:19.880 if you're distorting the actual occurrence of events in the past, 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:23.880 this may frequently outweigh the value of objective reality. 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:26.879 So it's better if all your friends are laughing about, Hey, 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:29.919 you remember that time Johnny, I don't know, yeah, chase 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:33.040 me with esteamed crab and you don't really remember that. 0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:35.719 It's probably better for your brain to convince you you 0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:38.280 do remember that, so you can laugh along with everybody 0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:40.680 else than to say, like, no, I don't think that happened. 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:45.640 Yeah, But again, these are generalizations, so you know, individual 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:48.040 experience is gonna is going to differ, and they're they're 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:50.239 all sorts of caveats that can come into play. But yeah, 0:36:50.239 --> 0:37:02.160 I think this is fascinating to think about now. In 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:04.480 I think both of the last couple of episodes we 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:08.840 talked a little bit about myth babies and legendary babies 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:13.200 of history, child hercules, child Jesus, child Christian and so forth. 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:16.480 So I do have just a little bit more on this, 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:20.560 getting into the idea of the child hero and the 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:21.400 child saint. 0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:24.759 Okay, we're gonna do another super baby sidebar here. 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.480 Yeah, and this one, this one is going to end 0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:31.600 up bringing up child mortality again. So my apologies. It 0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:34.839 was not my intent to discuss this more, but in 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:37.879 just diving into the topic, it becomes an essential part 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:43.480 of understanding some of these traditions. Okay, so first of all, 0:37:43.520 --> 0:37:48.280 just talking about infant heroes in Greek tradition. One paper 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:50.160 I was looking at here was Baby and Child Heroes 0:37:50.200 --> 0:37:55.480 in Ancient Greece by kareem On Dina Pash. And when 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:58.400 it comes to the child hero proper and not merely 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:01.279 the infant form of an heroes, so not just merely 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:05.359 baby hercules, but like a child hero that is a 0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:08.440 hero in and of itself. They are defined not by 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:12.399 their actions and exploits as with adult heroes, but by 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:16.800 their untimely deaths, which immortalize them as in hero cults. 0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:20.080 And these include such examples as the children of Medea 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:25.640 and the children of Heracles. To quote Pash here quote 0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:29.800 from parental fears and sense of guilt arise. The stories, songs, 0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:35.160 and sanctuaries honoring child heroes, both myth and ritual, articulate 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:39.000 these very basic human anxieties, yet the emphasis is ultimately 0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:42.560 on the beauty that transcends the gruesomeness of these narratives 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:46.319 and transforms dread into poetry. I think this is also 0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:48.640 interesting to consider when you look at the long list 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:52.560 of child saints in the Christian tradition, and these include 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.200 both martyred children and adults, as well as children who 0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:57.520 died at a young age, but were said to have 0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:02.440 been very mature, very whole in their young life, in 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:04.160 a way that it's almost like they were they were 0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:07.399 too holy for this world and therefore could not remain here. 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:12.319 So just a couple of examples to illustrate both of 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:17.399 these categories. There's Saint Rumwald of Buckingham from the year 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:21.600 six sixty two, said to have lived only for three days, 0:39:22.239 --> 0:39:24.640 but the child was said to be able to speak 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:28.720 and profess his faith right away. In fact, it's, according 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.760 to the legend, requested his own baptism and even delivered 0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:32.280 a sermon. 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:34.719 He requested it, but did he get it? 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:37.320 Did they baptize? Yeah, I believe that's part of the story. 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:39.720 He got the baptism and then got to deliver a sermon, 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:44.120 which you know is a comical image in some in 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:46.799 some ways, but also you understand where the like the 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:49.560 creative energy of this comes from, like the idea of 0:39:49.640 --> 0:39:54.080 like a child, and the and the attachment we feel 0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:57.560 to a child, the perfection and yet imperfection of a child. 0:39:57.640 --> 0:39:59.680 And then if there is and and then when you 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:03.880 fact in these various faith models of how salvation is 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:06.120 supposed to work, if you you factor in just the 0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:08.960 trauma of losing a young child, you can see where 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.719 stories like this could be created. And then, of course 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:18.080 you also have examples of martyrs. There is a Secarius 0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:21.600 of Bethlehem said to have been killed in King Herod's 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:24.440 Masacre of the Innocence somewhere between seven and two BCE. 0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:27.759 The alleged remains of the child are still held as 0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:31.520 holy relics today. So in these cases, you know the 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.600 child didn't. It's not my understanding, at least in this case. 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:37.359 And this may vary from telling to telling a case 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:40.960 where the child itself is not said to have been 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:45.479 holy or done anything holy, but was victim of something 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:49.000 or allegedly the victim of some sort of heinous act. 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:51.680 Yeah, I'd lean on allegedly on that one, because I 0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:54.839 think the story of the slaughter of the innocence, from 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:57.680 what I recall, is largely considered to be legendary. 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:01.240 Yeah, and it's And of course it's very, very notable 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.440 that some of the more notorious examples of child martyrs 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:08.600 were utilized in cases of blood libel against Jewish communities. 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:12.239 Hugh of Lincoln in the thirteenth century and Simon Trent 0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:15.120 in the fifteenth century, ving two prime examples. And these 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:17.680 are sadly not the only examples. You can pull out, 0:41:18.280 --> 0:41:21.440 cases where the you know, the alleged murder of a 0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:25.440 child was then used as an excuse for acts of 0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:30.320 violence against communities that were blamed with that to death. 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:32.759 So obviously kind of a depressing place I need to 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:35.200 wind up in this tangent. And I didn't really again, 0:41:35.239 --> 0:41:37.200 didn't really want to discuss dead children again, but I 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:39.920 guess it's unavoidable. You know, why does a child stand 0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:42.759 out in a mythic narrative. It may be about who 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:45.200 that child will become, but there's also a weight to 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.919 the child that does not pass on into mythic adulthood. 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:51.920 You know. And it can be clearly be leveraged in 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:54.759 different ways as a rallying cry of martyrdom, as an 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:59.160 inspiration of innocence, as an inspiration for violence and horror. 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:02.560 You know. It can be the kind of narrative that 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.600 can circumvent the cruelty of the world or inspire more cruelty. 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:08.400 There's you know you can. You can go in various 0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:11.160 directions with it. Now, one final thing I wanted to 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.520 discuss you a little bit, and I think we alluded 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:15.480 to it a little bit earlier in this episode, is that, 0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:18.840 you know, as we've discussed already, there are numerous examples 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:22.960 of suggested falsified memories to turn to, including memories of 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:26.880 various paranormal encounters, different forms of abuse, and indeed we 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.160 can also throw supposed memories of past lives into the mix. 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:33.600 You know you can, You'll have you You can certainly 0:42:33.880 --> 0:42:37.160 find people who claim to remember very early childhood, people 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:40.439 who claim to remember their birth, but also people who 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:44.080 claim to remember a time before their birth before they 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:47.760 were born, either in the womb or before the womb, 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:51.080 in another life before the womb. Any you know, so 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:54.440 you know it's uh. This again speaks to the power 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:59.600 of our ability to create and falsify meaningful memories. And 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:01.040 it's not too big of a leap, right, If you 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:03.279 can already create a memory of a thing that didn't occur, 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:05.400 it's not too much of a leap to remember supposed 0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:09.600 lives before this one as well, right, And there's a 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.120 lot of individuals have written on this and theorized on 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:16.920 this sort of thing. Check. Psychiatrist Stanislav Groff theorized that 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:21.360 some near death experiences are actually a kind of channeling 0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:24.439 of birth memories, with the so called tunnel of light 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:29.479 representing the birth canal. This is skeptical about that, Yes, yeah, 0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:33.400 this is very Everyone has a right to be very 0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:36.719 skeptical of this. I've seen it refuted by skeptics on 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:39.919 a number of grounds, including that the experience of being 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:42.840 born would not look like this even if your infant 0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:45.040 head were in the right position and your eyes were 0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:48.160 actually open, and again you were capable of forming memories 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:52.759 like this. So I think there's very strong reasons to 0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:57.560 be skeptical of this being an actual memory. But like 0:43:57.560 --> 0:43:59.200 we've said, you get in there and you start tinkering 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.400 with your memories, start calling them, You start bringing in 0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:07.400 content from different communities and learned individuals. You can start 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:10.360 augmenting things, you can start falsifying things, and what you 0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:13.279 end up with can still be highly meaningful. It can 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:16.359 still you know, to you, it can also have an 0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:22.120 impact on the creation of art and literature. If the 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:26.280 name standis left Grov sounds familiar. Longtime listeners might remember 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:28.279 it coming up in an episode that Christian and I 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:32.360 did on the art of hr Giger, because these very metaphors, 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:35.680 you know, the tunnel of lie, near death, and pre birth. 0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:39.319 These were explored in some of Giger's art work, and 0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:43.279 Groff actually authored a twenty eighteen book of Giger's work 0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:47.000 titled hr Giger and the Zeitgeist of the Twentieth Century. Graf, 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:49.960 by the way, was also a technical advisor on Douglas 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:54.080 Trumbull's nineteen eighty three film Brainstorm that had Christopher Walkin 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:56.960 in it. I believe so again not to say that 0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:01.000 these can't be potent ideas, but they do seem to 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:04.279 stand outside of science. There you know, these are more 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:07.400 We're getting more into the area of religion and myth 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:11.239 and even the parent normal. But I think it all 0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:13.719 speaks to just how invested we can become in the 0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:16.879 story of us and those vast blank spaces in our 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.080 recollection as you know, as well as any glimmers that 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:22.640 we might sense in the dark that we could then 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:26.480 augment and accentuate into something else, something that is meaningful 0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:29.240 to us or makes us feel part of a group, 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:33.480 et cetera. And you know, there are examples of this 0:45:33.560 --> 0:45:36.520 line of thinking from outside of science, concepts of pre 0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:40.960 existence in various cultures. There's the concept of reincarnation or 0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:44.400 the transmigration of the soul, and we see this in 0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:50.400 various traditions, Greek traditions, early Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, medieval Jewish mysticism, 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.160 new religious movements, and so many more examples. 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.400 There were some early Christians who believed in reincarnation. 0:45:57.040 --> 0:45:58.840 Yeah, yeah, I was reading a little bit about this, 0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:01.359 you know, the idea of a pre immortal existence of 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:05.960 the soul. Various strains of thought concerning the not only 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:08.879 the idea that the human soul was was pre had 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:11.840 a pre existence that it was say, created before the 0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:14.920 physical creation of the universe, and I guess, you know, 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:18.839 the souls are just setting around waiting to be installed 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.560 in a physical form. And then there is also a 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.719 fair amount of thought about the idea of the pre 0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:27.680 existence of Jesus, of Jesus Christ, the idea that yes, 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:30.280 God is going to take on this sort of mortal 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:33.040 incarnation because he has to go to earth and die 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:36.600 for everyone sins and so forth. But but then there 0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:38.719 are there are these some lines of thought that are like, okay, 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:41.479 well what was he doing before then? And I guess 0:46:41.480 --> 0:46:43.279 on one hand, you could say, well, he just had 0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:45.800 God had not incarnated yet, so it's like he hadn't 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:48.640 butted off into a physical form. But then there are 0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:50.120 these other lines of thought. It's like, oh, yeah, no, 0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.640 he's there, He's just setting around waiting, but he just 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:55.920 hasn't gone to earth yet. For example, I was I 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.680 was reading that there was one early Christian theologian, I 0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:01.520 believe this his origin of I'll think of Alexandria, I 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:04.560 lived at one eight five through two fifty three, taught 0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:08.040 that human souls existed for before creation, and this was 0:47:08.040 --> 0:47:10.279 something that he would later be accused of heresy for 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:13.440 but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think the 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:15.360 big take home from all of this is that we 0:47:15.400 --> 0:47:18.759 have an impressive ability to create meaningful memories out of 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:22.440 various sources that are not pure recollection to the limited 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:26.400 extent that there is recollection of anything. And you know, 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:29.360 I guess I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:32.920 fostering memories of infancy, birth or life before birth, so 0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:35.480 long as it improves one's quality of life and it 0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:38.880 doesn't take anything away from you or others. You know, 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:40.520 if that's the case, then what's the harm in it? 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:43.680 I think the way I'd put my feeling is reminisce 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:48.360 and enjoy your memories, but also be aware of the 0:47:48.960 --> 0:47:52.000 fact that some of them may not have a factual basis. 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:55.400 Yeah. Yeah, When I was thinking about this, I was 0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:57.600 trying to think, well, how could it be harmful? And 0:47:57.640 --> 0:47:59.839 I think that the main sticking point that I could 0:47:59.840 --> 0:48:04.720 come up with is if one's claims of false memories 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.040 could embolden harmful models and others. So this is just 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:12.160 a purely hypothetical scenario. But imagine that you, through one 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:15.440 method or another, we've discussed your fostered memory of alien 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.239 abduction that for you is awe inspiring and beneficial, Like 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:21.719 I remember seeing aliens when I was a child, and 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:24.560 isn't that great? I you know, this is my you know, 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:31.120 brain expanding cosmost appreciating moment. But what if your pronounced 0:48:31.120 --> 0:48:34.720 belief in these experiences enable someone else to further engage 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:37.759 in a harmful variation on it. Or on the other hand, 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:41.440 what if, here's another scenario, what if your harmless accounts 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:45.640 of a past life embolden someone else to and then 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.600 wind up in a situation where they're being manipulated or 0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:52.279 conned by someone who is taking advantage of this you know, 0:48:52.400 --> 0:48:54.759 longing for or recollection of a past. 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:57.000 Life, telling you this stuff is real and I can 0:48:57.200 --> 0:48:59.720 I can find your past selves for you for a price. 0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:02.359 Yeah, yeah, I mean, And you know, there's, of course, 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:03.879 there can be a lot of gray area in any 0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:07.480 scenario like that, but you know, and this is hypothetical, 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:10.040 but you know, it's it's worth considering. I think that 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:12.920 in any given paranormal area, you know, it's going to 0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:15.640 be dependent on more than just mere professed experience and 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:19.600 or augmented or false memories. There may also be disingenuous 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:23.760 actors involved, manipulators of disinformation, and of course just outright 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.319 con artists as well, So I don't know, food for thought. 0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:30.560 Yeah, i'd reiterate what I said. I mean, you know 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:33.239 you can, you can enjoy all your family memories and 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:35.399 all the you know, all the good stuff, but also 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:38.240 just be realistic about the fallibility of memory. 0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:39.040 Yeah. 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:41.759 Yeah, if there were a video camera present, it may 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:43.719 not actually have happened to the way you remember it. 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:48.480 But you know that our memories all we've got, yeah, 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:50.160 or in many cases it's all we got. I guess 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:51.919 sometimes you did have a video camera there. 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:54.880 Yeah, yeah, you have the video, the video and you 0:49:54.920 --> 0:49:57.359 have the photographs, which then can of course be used 0:49:57.400 --> 0:50:02.200 to falsify memories. So yeah, there's and of course with 0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:06.439 advances and technology, things are only going to get more 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:09.680 complicated on that. On those grounds, All right, we're going 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:13.399 to gohe and close out this trilogy of episodes here, 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:16.680 but we'd continue to love to hear from everyone out there. 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.080 If you have thoughts on early childhood memories, you want 0:50:19.080 --> 0:50:23.760 to share early childhood memories, you know, memories of past lives, 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:27.480 any of anything that falls under the under the heading 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:31.080 of the topic here, yeah, right in. We would love 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:35.000 to listen to you and discuss any of this, potentially 0:50:35.200 --> 0:50:39.160 on future episodes of Listener Mail. Listener Mails published on Mondays. 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:42.280 On Wednesdays we do short form artifact or monster fact episodes, 0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:44.920 Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on Fridays we 0:50:44.960 --> 0:50:47.520 do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside 0:50:47.520 --> 0:50:49.680 most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film. 0:50:50.000 --> 0:50:53.319 Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 0:50:53.320 --> 0:50:55.360 would like to get in touch with us with feedback 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:57.640 on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 0:50:57.680 --> 0:50:59.560 for the future, or just to say hello, you can 0:50:59.600 --> 0:51:02.640 email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:10.960 dot com. 0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:13.960 Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 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