1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday. The 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: vault door it creaketh open, and then we go for 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: part three of our Before You Could Remember series. This 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: originally published on April eighteenth, twenty twenty three, and here 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: it is again, Hope you enjoy. 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back finally with 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: part three of our series on childhood amnesia. We had 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: a bit of an interruption in the series last week 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: to first of all, to some sick days and then 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 2: to a scheduled interview. But now we return to finish 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: off the series, so I thought we should do a 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: brief refresher on the stuff we talked about in the 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: past couple of episodes here. So the term childhood amnesia 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: refers to a couple of different facts, which are first 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: of all the fact that most adults cannot conjure any genuine, 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: first hand episodic memories from before roughly the age of three, 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: and there are some minor variations in that age horizon 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: that have been observed to correlate with variables like gender. 24 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: Girls tend to have slightly earlier memories culture. Different cultures 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: have on average different memory horizons, but on average we 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: can say most people's earliest memories tend to be somewhere 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: in the range of three years old, or between three 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: or four. And then the other fact is that once 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: we do start having memories, for the next four to 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: five years after that, we have fewer memories than would 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: be predicted by the normal rate of forgetting. That holds 32 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: true throughout the rest of your life. So first you've 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: got no memories usually, and then you've got fewer memories, 34 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: and then finally the regular rate of forgetting kicks in, 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: maybe somewhere around seven or eight or so. Now, some 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: people do claim to have much earlier memories, and we've 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: heard from some of them in email. Even some people 38 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: claim to have memories even up to and before birth. 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: And you know, it's impossible to rule that out. It's 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: possible in some cases people do have those memories, but 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: these claims also have to be considered alongside the fact 42 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: that research shows it is very easy to create the 43 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: false impression of a childhood memory, spurred by all kinds 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: of external prompting, anything from a photo, whether a real 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: photo or a doctored one, a story told by a parent. 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: And it's clear that these false memories implanted later in life, 47 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: in many cases feel completely genuine to us, even if 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: they are fabricated purely for the purpose of an experiment. 49 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, so we want to continue to drive that 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: home that to whatever extent a memory is accurate, augmented, fabricated, 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: et cetera, that doesn't take away from the subjective reality 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: of the memory and the importance of the memory, or 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: the or the pain of the memory. 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, sure, you know, one of the ways I would 55 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: put it is that like the fact that someone has 56 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: a false memory, as in they have a memory of 57 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: an event that did not actually happen, does not mean 58 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: that they're like lying it, you know, like we literally 59 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: cannot tell the difference between real memories and false memories 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: in many cases. 61 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: Right and I think it's safe to say that the 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: many memories, if not all memories, are false to some degree. 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: Right now. In previous parts, we also talked about some 64 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: of the experimental methods used to test for memory at 65 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: early ages, including you know, straightforward earliest memory prompts, tell 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: me your earliest memory, things like the word Q test, 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: so tell me a memory associated with the following word. 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: We use the example of jar and so forth. Now, 69 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: some research we discussed in previous episodes made a pretty 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: convincing case, at least to me, that the explanation is 71 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: not that the brain is incapable of forming memories before 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: the average age of three or four. One of the 73 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: other studies we talked about included a scenario in which 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: three year olds could produce details about recent events in 75 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: their lives when interviewed along with their mothers, showing that 76 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: they did have memories of recent things that had happened, 77 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: and these memories could be elicited with cues from parents. 78 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: Though it seems in a lot of cases children this 79 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: young will not offer details from memory spontaneously, but if 80 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: you kind of coax it out of them, they can 81 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: produce details on their own that show they do remember things. 82 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, plusive mom is there to help, you know, right. 83 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: But when those very same kids were interviewed years later, 84 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: after having been able to produce memories about recent events 85 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: at age three, between the ages of seven and nine, 86 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: many of those memories of early events were lost, and 87 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: a lot more were lost by the ages of eight 88 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: and nine than were lost by the age of seven. 89 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 2: So there appears to be in later childhood kind of 90 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: a period of rapid massive forgetting, where a lot of 91 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: our earliest memories kind of vanish, like memories of a dream. 92 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: So the big question is why is it that many 93 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: of these earliest memories, or what memories exist of earliest events, 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: cannot be produced later in life, either later in childhood 95 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: or especially in adulthood. There have been a lot of 96 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: attempts to answer this question. There, of course, is still 97 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: a lot of controversy about it. It is not a 98 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: settled debate. But many of the proposed answers are based 99 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: in the developing structure of the brain. And while I 100 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: think there is absolutely something to these arguments, the neurodevelopmental 101 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: structural arguments, they don't exactly mean that the immature brain 102 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: cannot make memories yet, because again we as we've seen, 103 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: sometimes you can get younger children to provide details about 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: recent events, and also young children can show examples of learning, 105 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: say learning how to manipulate a simple mechanism in a 106 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: toy in experiments to show that they do have memories 107 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: that in some cases last for weeks or months even 108 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: before the age of three, so there is some remembering 109 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: going on. Instead, it seems to me more likely that 110 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: what's happening here is the memories that the brain makes 111 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: at age one or two are prone to more rapid 112 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: forgetting than the kinds of memories we would make at 113 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: age eleven or twelve or Also, those memories might be 114 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: different than the memories made in later life in a 115 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: way that makes them more difficult to retrieve after we 116 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: age passed that memory horizon. So for the neurodevelopmental structural 117 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: arguments we looked at, one paper in Part two are 118 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: arguing that the hippocampal memory system is actually very active 119 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: in the first few years of life. That's the normal 120 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: memory system. A lot is going on there when you're 121 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: you know, two years old or so. But this paper 122 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: argued that instead of making memories of the kind that 123 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: will be stored for the rest of your life, what 124 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: it's primarily doing with the processing of information from experiences 125 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: is learning how to learn. And complementary to this, I 126 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 2: think one structural developmental explanation has been offered is that 127 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: a lot of early autobiographical memories may be lost due 128 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: to the rapid rate of neurogenesis during childhood. So as 129 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 2: new brain cells are formed, especially in the hippocampus, this 130 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: may erode the stability of the structural basis of existing memories. So, 131 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: you know, the hippo campus is developing rapidly. You're sort 132 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: of like, you know, rebuilding the house constantly in real time, 133 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: in which case the rooms that existed, you know, a 134 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: year ago might not really exist anymore as rooms down 135 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: the road. 136 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: It's almost heartbreaking to think about that. It's gotten memories. 137 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: The house is getting bigger. You know, you can put 138 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: more in it, but you're also dismantling as you do. 139 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess it's like you're thinking of it 140 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: in terms of the young child. It's like the house 141 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: that is being built is going to be magnificent as well, 142 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: and it's built on the bones of the house that 143 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: came before. So you can't get too sentimental about that 144 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: which is being lost as a necessary part of the 145 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: child's maturing. But I still reserve the right to cry 146 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: a little bit. Oh yeah, yeah. 147 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: Well, if you're recalled, I got interested in this whole 148 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: idea because of a story about my daughter, who is 149 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: actually I said five months last time. You know, she's 150 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: coming up on six months now. Wow, And we were 151 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: trying to figure out Okay, so we've been really making 152 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: her laugh a lot by dropping a cloth on her face. 153 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: She thinks this is hilarious. It just layer down on 154 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: the blanket and drop the cloth from above, and we 155 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: were like, is she going to remember that she thought 156 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: this was funny? Will she be able to explain why 157 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: she thought it was funny when she's older, And unfortunately 158 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: it breaks my heart. I think the answer is probably not. 159 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: Still, these are prime years to just kill it as 160 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: a dad standout. Yeah, so it just keep developing that material. 161 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: But anyway, so while the while the overall causes of 162 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: childhood amnesia are still being debated in the scientific literature, 163 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: I'm very one over that at least one of the 164 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: major causes probably is the neurodevelopmental issue we talked about 165 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: in the last episode, the hippocampus coming online and developing. 166 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: Of course, it also seems plausible that it's a phenomenon 167 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: with multiple contributing causes, and maybe some are based not 168 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: just in the physical development of the brain, but possibly 169 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: in some more externally visible developmental milestones, maybe based in 170 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: the environment and things we learn, And so I thought, 171 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: before we move away from this topic, we should explore 172 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: a few of those ideas as well. So another factor 173 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: I've read about linked to childhood amnesia, possibly explaining elements 174 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: of it, is language. This seems like an obvious place 175 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: to go, the language and the linguistic environment in which 176 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: a child grows up. What if the extent to which 177 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: we record experiences as memories, in the form in which 178 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: they're stored, and our later ability to retrieve and make 179 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 2: sense of those memories is in some way dependent on language. 180 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: The typical childhood memory horizon tends to come pretty much 181 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: right in the middle of a period of rapid development 182 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: of language skills and the acquisition of vocabulary. So could 183 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: it be that the adult capacity for memory greatly depends 184 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: on the use of words and concepts that we gain 185 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: during this language acquisition period. Could be coincidence, but developing 186 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: skills and manipulating different types of subjects and predicates I 187 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: think could play a role in the onset of autobiographical 188 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: memories that persist over time. Because language obviously plays a 189 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: major role in how we as adults remember and tell 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: autobiographical memories. Like you ever notice how when you tell 191 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: a story from memory, you often end up using the 192 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: same or similar words. 193 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: To do so. 194 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: Why is that? I mean? Even if so, you can 195 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: understand how if you are like reporting speech in a memory, 196 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: you would want to use the same words to do 197 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: so because you're reporting what somebody said. But so you're 198 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: reporting a non verbal event, just like a walk you 199 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: went on and things you saw. Very often you use 200 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: the same or similar words to do so, or at 201 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: least I think I do, and most people I notice 202 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: seem to do. Would this be your experience? 203 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: Also, yeah, and I do. It kind of brings me 204 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: back to the topic of Dad stand up comedian because 205 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: I wonder, like to a lot extent, it's like you 206 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: keep retelling a story more or less the same way 207 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: because you know what's really working. You know, like what, yeah, 208 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: what makes it more dramatic, what makes it more funny? 209 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: Which you know, how you can frame it in a 210 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: way that have also brings to mind, like scenes from 211 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: movies or something. So yeah, I think there's a lot 212 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: of that going on. 213 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: Oh well, it's interesting you bring up the role of 214 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: entertainment in the language used to relate a memory that'll 215 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: come up again in just a minute. But yeah, so 216 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: I think I would acknowledge that certain types of vocabulary 217 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: might actually make the difference between the ability to coherently 218 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 2: remember an event and recall it years later versus that, 219 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: you know, the characteristics that often come up when people 220 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: are describing their very earliest memories, even the ones we've 221 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: heard of from listeners in the email we got after 222 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: the first couple of parts, like the kind of rare, fragmented, 223 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: decontextualized sensory memories that people often produce as their very 224 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: earliest Those have a very different and character than a 225 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: lot of later memories, and that may it seems to 226 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: me like those differences could correlate with not really having 227 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: the language to organize them as memories at the time 228 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 2: they're formed. But if language does play an important role 229 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: in establishing the capacity for long term memories about your life, 230 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: what if it's not just conceptual vocabulary. Another way language 231 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 2: could have something to do with memory in early childhood 232 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: is narrative. So when you are asked to explain a 233 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: memory from childhood, for example, you know, what's the first 234 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 2: time you can remember swimming in the ocean. You could 235 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: say I was in Florida, I was about three, or 236 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: you could say, well, I was with my mom and 237 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: dad and we were in Florida and the sand was white, 238 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: and I remember I saw a crab and it scared me, 239 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: but my dad told me it was safe and the 240 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: crab wouldn't chase me. And then the water was cold, 241 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: it was colder than the bath. And then salt water 242 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: got in my nose and I didn't like that at first, 243 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: but then I did. And then later we went to 244 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: dinner at a restaurant and my dad got steamed crabs, 245 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: and he remembered the crab on the beach, and he 246 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 2: kept teasing me. He made the crab creep up on 247 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: me on the table. 248 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: Well, is this an actual memory for you? 249 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: No, I just made it up, But it seems like 250 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 2: it could. 251 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: Be, because I mean, you do have a certain fascinating 252 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: with crabs. So if this were a legitimate memory, perhaps Joe, 253 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: perhaps we're retrieving this memory through the exercise of podcasting. 254 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: This explains everything. It's how I got corm and brained, 255 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: and now it's just leaking out in a made up story. 256 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: Right here, but no, so, at least in the way 257 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: you tell stories from childhood, there is a wide range 258 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: of stylistic flexibility. You could mention things in a dry 259 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: informational manner, reporting just where you were and what happened, 260 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: or you could offer information more in the kind of 261 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: narrative style that people enjoy and make meaning out of 262 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: when they tell stories to each other. And you could 263 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: call this distinction sort of reporting versus remen missing, you know, 264 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: with the storytelling being more social in nature and more 265 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: entertainment focused, honestly, So that comes back to your thing 266 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: about having a certain format of the memory that is 267 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: based around the language you've found is best to express 268 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: it for entertainment value or for communicating what you're trying 269 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: to get across. 270 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And exaggeration, I find is also a tool 271 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: you often see employed sometimes, I guess at later ages 272 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: you see it used intentionally, intentionally exaggerating the emotional context 273 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: of an event in order to make a better story 274 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: out of it. Though I've also seen much younger children 275 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: do that. I remember, and this was like a birthday 276 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: party I took my son to and there's a slipping slide. 277 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: Tensions were running high, I think, and an adult went 278 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: down the slip and slide, and then the birthday Blay exclaimed, 279 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: this is a disaster, and see'd rather perturbed by the 280 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: whole scenario. I don't know how that experience matured or 281 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: state or it sticks stuck around as a memory, But 282 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: like that kind of exaggeration I can imagine could make 283 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: it if it was truly viewed as a disaster, as 284 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: a catastrophe of a non child going down slip and slide, Well. 285 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: Just think about yeah, if that child later tells that story, 286 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: all the different ways that the story could be loaded. 287 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it could be loaded with like humor, sort 288 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: of ironic reflection on how one feels as a child, 289 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 2: or I don't know, maybe if you mature a certain way, 290 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: you might still take it very seriously and be upset 291 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: about the slipping slide. But there's all this loading in 292 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: stories that is not just merely reporting the facts about 293 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: an event, but to make the facts reported make sense 294 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: within some broader story. You might call this having the 295 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: facts contexted. That's how it was expressed in the abstract 296 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: of a paper I was looking at. But you also 297 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: make evalue a statements and implications about those facts, So 298 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: not just why happened, but I felt X about why. 299 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: And I've read numerous sources alleging that there could be 300 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: a link between the narrative reminiscing style of say the 301 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: family or the environment in which a child grows up 302 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: and the age at which those children form lasting memories. 303 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: I was reading about this in one article in the 304 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: Berkeley Greater Good magazine by Gene Shinsky and another article 305 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: in the BBC from twenty sixteen by Zaria Gorvitt. These 306 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: were essentially making the link that some researchers think more elaborate, 307 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: coherent narratives could cause children to have memories that last longer, 308 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: and one example was cited in that BBC article. It 309 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: was a paper done by the Cornell University psychology professor 310 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: Chi Wang, who was the author of a paper called 311 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: culture Effects on Adult's Earliest Childhood Recollection and Self Description 312 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: Implications for the Relation between Memory and the Self published 313 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 2: in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in two 314 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: thousand and one, and this found that by comparing childhood 315 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: stories told by Chinese and American college students, American students' 316 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: stories tended to be longer and more elaborate with more 317 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: self focused evaluations, whereas the Chinese stories were more restrained 318 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 2: and factual. And also the average earliest memories of the 319 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: American students were a little bit earlier. And this personally 320 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: squared with Wang's experience of growing up in China, where 321 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: she said that the cultural norm was that there was 322 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: less emphasis on stories of early childhood memories, and she 323 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: gives a quote to the BBC saying, if society is 324 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: telling you those memories are important to you, you'll hold 325 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: on to them. And this also relates to cross cultural studies, 326 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: saying that some of the examples of the people on 327 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 2: average the earliest childhood memories tend to be people of 328 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: the Maori culture, and these same studies find that Maori 329 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: families tend to place a lot of emphasis on elaborate 330 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: narrative storytelling in the past. So I thought this was 331 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: interesting that this could connect to some of the differences 332 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 2: we've already read about and I think talked about in 333 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: the first episode about cross cultural differences in the age 334 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 2: of the earliest memories, and also gender differences, because there 335 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: have been some studies showing that girls tend to have 336 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: slightly earlier memories on average than boys, and that girls 337 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: in childhood tend to relate stories in a more contexted 338 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: and evaluative manner. But whatever the particulars of how it works, 339 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 2: it's certainly not hard for me to imagine that the 340 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: storytelling environment in which you grow up plays a large 341 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: role on what and how you remember things from your 342 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: earliest childhood. 343 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating and something also just to keep 344 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: in mind too that I remember one of the sources 345 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: I quoted in maybe the first episode mentioned, and that 346 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: is that there's no right or wrong way like the 347 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: earlier memories of childhood versus later memories, neither one is 348 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: healthier or more correct. The brain remembers what it needs 349 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: to remember. 350 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: Right, And while playing on that, one way to interpret 351 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 2: these findings, if they are correct, is that maybe by 352 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: inhabiting an environment where there is a lot of elaborate 353 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: narrative storytelling that involves a lot of contexting of events 354 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: and including evaluations, that is an environment that tells the 355 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: child that they need to remember things in that manner 356 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: and thus makes them easier to retrieve and relate later on. 357 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: Of course, the interesting thing being that again this is 358 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: all coming back to autobiographical memories, the kind of memories 359 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: for like event in your life that like you can 360 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: later retell as stories. And this doesn't necessarily correspond to 361 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: other types of memory, like say, memory of how to 362 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: do something, you know, memories that we often think of 363 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: not as quote memory but as learning. All right, So, 364 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: the language based memory development idea has been around for 365 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: a long time, and it has its proponents, though I 366 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: think also it has its critics, and I don't think 367 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: we should place too much emphasis on things like the 368 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: role of language, because one big reason here is that 369 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: some analogs to infantile amnesia have been discovered in animals 370 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 2: like rats. You know, So there are rat experiments showing 371 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: kind of similar patterns of forgetting of the earliest experiences 372 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 2: as rats age into adulthood. Rats of course never acquire 373 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: langug which, but show some similar patterns. So it's clear 374 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: that language is not the deciding factor, but may play 375 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: a role in, say the timing of different stages of 376 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: memory acquisition. Another older idea that might still have something 377 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: to do with the with childhood amnesia. What about the 378 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: role of what researchers have called the cognitive self. I 379 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: was reading about this in a paper called on Resolving 380 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: the Enigma of Infantile Amnesia by Mark Howe and Mary 381 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: Courage published in Psychological Bulletin in nineteen ninety three, and 382 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: they discussed the idea of what if The crucial factor 383 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: in the establishment of lasting autobiographical memories is the development 384 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: of the concept of I and me, related in a 385 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: way to the concept of theory of mind. Understanding that 386 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: your mind is different from the minds of others, that 387 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: you know things other people don't know, and have thoughts 388 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: and feelings other people don't have, and that they likewise 389 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: know things and have thoughts and feelings that you cannot 390 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: share in unless they tell you. Under this proposal, it's 391 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: not until we have mastered the concept of a self 392 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 2: different from others that we're able to organize our memories 393 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: into a sensical form that can be retrieved across time. 394 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: How Encourage right in their conclusion quote, A series of 395 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: significant developmental events take place when infants are between eighteen 396 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: and thirty months of age that prepare them to talk 397 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: about personally experienced events. First, at about eighteen months of age, 398 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: infants learn to recognize their features in the mirror. The 399 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: next acquisition is a more advanced representation of the self 400 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 2: reflected in the pronomial reference to the self as I 401 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 2: and me. In the early months of the second year, 402 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: finally the child learns to talk about immediate and then 403 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 2: more distant past events in narrative the language of autobiographical memory. 404 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: Both narrative and autobiographical memory continue to develop in structure, organization, 405 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: and content over the preschool years, But by that time, 406 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: infantile amnesia is indeed a phenomenon of the past. And 407 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: so this one's a little bit different because this one 408 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 2: does not depend while it's related to language, Their idea 409 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: of the concept of the cognitive self does not rely 410 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 2: entirely on language, and they think there are ways that 411 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 2: the cognitive self can be demonstrated before a child acquires 412 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: the words in which to express it. But they think 413 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: that the child needs a concept of self and I 414 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: separate from the world and the events in the world 415 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: in order to put the memories into a form that 416 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: can later be accessed and expressed. 417 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because it sounds like without that, 418 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: there's no there's no like weight, there's no structure. It's 419 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: just like memories of potentially of just environments and groups 420 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: of people without the actual connection of like this, this 421 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: is a value because I am at the center of it. 422 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: That's right, And that would connect again to the ideas 423 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: about rative and maybe the important role of say, evaluative 424 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: statements about memories helping us to be able to recall 425 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: them later. 426 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah the child is yeah, oh sorry, Yeah, the child 427 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: is like, it's nice, but what is in it for me? Yeah? 428 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: I remember it. 429 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: So in the end, when I'm looking at all these explanations, 430 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: I don't know. Of course, I'm you know, I'm not 431 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 2: a neuroscientist or a developmental psychologist, so I don't pretend 432 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: to be expressing expertise on this, But I just say, personally, 433 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: I feel pretty convinced by the neurodevelopmental arguments, the ones 434 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: about the development of the hippocampal memory system, that there's 435 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: clearly some kind of like structural change going on in 436 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: the brain in the early years of life, and this 437 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 2: this plays a major role in why we don't retain 438 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: all these memories until later life. As far as these 439 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: explanations based in language and the cognitive self and stuff, 440 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 2: I I don't know it. It seems like the evidence 441 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: for them is a little bit softer, But I'm very 442 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: interested in them, and they seem plausible to me at least. 443 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, But basically all the papers I read 444 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: on this subject, or you know the old cliche, they're 445 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 2: calling for more research, like you know, widely acknowledging this 446 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 2: is not a settled question. And so you know that 447 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: we have some interesting ideas, but ultimately we don't know 448 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: for sure why childhood amnesia happens, and maybe more research 449 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: could help settle it. 450 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: Now, we've discussed false memories a good bit in these episodes, 451 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, talking about very early childhood memories that are 452 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: to some degree falsified, unaugmented, And you know, I think 453 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to mostly focus on the potential pitfalls 454 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: of false memories or or to land somewhere on sort 455 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: of like the neutral impact that they may have. But 456 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: I also wanted to tackle the question of just like 457 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: why is it also advantageous to have false memories? Like 458 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: why would this it all be a dapt Is there 459 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: an upside to this mental ability or is this just 460 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: kind of junk? Is this just kind of a byproduct 461 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: of the way that our brains have developed. 462 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: Well, I would say that this is not the only 463 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: way in which our brains consistently generate false beliefs, and 464 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: I think when our brains do that, they're usually doing 465 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: it for a reason. 466 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah. Certainly this ties into larger issues 467 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: of how we falsify beliefs, how we falsify memories, how 468 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: we obsess over perhaps impractical ideas of what the future 469 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: might hold. You know, I'm reminded of a couple of 470 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: quotes here. I believe it was Alan Rogerley who commented that, 471 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: or he may have been quoting somebody else actually, that 472 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: repetition and recollection are the same force, but in different directions. 473 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: I remember too, I think our Scott Baker commenting that 474 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: that science fiction and fantasy kind of both fulfill the 475 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: same purpose, going either into the past or into the future, 476 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: sort of constructing an unrealistic but far fetched version of 477 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: the future based on where we are now, and then 478 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: the other is a version of the past that is 479 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: equally fantastic, illogical, and obviously not true, but telling about 480 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: where we are in the present. So, you know, we're 481 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: these strange creatures that see ourselves as occupying this space, 482 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: this now, and remembering what came before, predicting what is 483 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: about to come, and then it's kind of open to 484 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: discussion if there is actually a now point, like are 485 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: we actually there? Or is that also a construction of 486 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: the past. But any rate, I wanted to see what 487 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: experts were saying about this. So I was reading a 488 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: paper titled false Memories, What the Hell Are They For? 489 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: By Aaron J. Newman and D. Stephen Lindsay, published in 490 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: Applied Cognitive Psychology back in two thousand and nine, and 491 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: I thought, the author's made some good points here, and 492 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: a number of these are going to be things that 493 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, we've discussed on the show before, or I 494 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: guess generally understood about memory in the brain. But first 495 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: of all, this is all part of mental our mental 496 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: time travel abilities that enable us to experience our memories 497 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: of the past with a feeling of subjective clarity, while 498 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: also enabling us to produce mental models of potential futures. Quote. 499 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: Recalling an autobiographical experience involves piecing together activated memorial information 500 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: while at the same time making inferences based on other 501 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: information available to us. Biases, stereotypes, and expectations that act 502 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: on our current thinking also act on inferences that we 503 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: make about mental events arising from the past. So Obviously, 504 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: given this system, failures are inevitable. Memory failures are inevitable 505 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: false memories, along with inaccurate or unlikely ruminated scenarios of 506 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: the future. This is all just part of living with 507 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: our human understands of reality, and so various methods can 508 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: be used and have been studied to produce false memories 509 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: of events. The authors point out. These include suggestion via 510 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: imagination exercises, the use of photographs, dream interpretation, guided imagery, 511 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: and paraphrasing. I mean, even this, you know, kind of 512 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: joking example that we busted out earlier of you bringing 513 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: up a hypothetical entirely made up memory of childhood about 514 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: crabs in the end, and it was so loaded with crabs. 515 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: It's a relatively easy exercise for one to then turn 516 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: that back on the person who created and saying, well, 517 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: is that completely made up? What does that say about you? 518 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Why did you bring up the crabs so many times? 519 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: You know? And you can begin to build on that. 520 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: Well, yes, And if you took that same story and said, hey, 521 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: you know, your parents told us the story about when 522 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: you went to the beach when you were little. Do 523 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: you remember this, well, you might not necessarily at first 524 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: or you might think, well, maybe I do, and then 525 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: over time that could very easily turn into what feels 526 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: like a real memory for you. 527 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it also now there are a number of 528 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: factors to keep in mind too. It's worth noting that 529 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: the results and experiments involving the creation or the fostering 530 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: of false recollections, it depends on the degree to which 531 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: a memory is falsified. For example, in many of these experiments, 532 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: you'll find examples where they'll find out about an actual 533 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: childhood memory like they would in this case, say talk 534 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: to one of your parents and ask about your earliest 535 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: speech encounter and then use that in the construction of 536 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: a false memory. And then you also have to take 537 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: into account the weight of the memory that is being 538 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: built up or augmented. So it's one thing, for example, 539 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: for me to suggest, yeah, maybe you were really fascinated 540 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: by crabs like you like you were in this false 541 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: story of childhood. It's another to say, you know, maybe 542 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: that they had a you know, just you were profoundly 543 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: frightened by the crabs, and this totally shaped to you. 544 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, how how much weight are you 545 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: putting on the memory. For instance, one study reference in 546 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: this paper had high results of memory inception when you 547 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: were trying to get them to remember a childhood prank. Now, 548 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, nothing too severe, but you know something that 549 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: where it's not going to like shake the core of 550 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: their being or really mess around too many understandings of self. 551 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: Is just like, let's let's generate this this memory of 552 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: this prank that probably didn't actually occur. 553 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: Yes, So, if I'm understanding right, this might imply it's 554 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: easier to generate a false memory for an event that 555 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 2: is not really like, does not shake the core of 556 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: your what you how you would characterize your childhood, but 557 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: rather for a kind of like weird, quirky, funny little 558 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: event that doesn't really change anything about your life. 559 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: Right, And of course, a lot of the very sorts 560 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: of memories, early childhood memories that we've been discussing here, 561 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: the kind that are sort of shared among families, are 562 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: exactly the sort of memory. You know. They're not necessarily 563 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: profound or anything. They're amusing, they're fun, and therefore it's 564 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: easy to grab onto it now. The authors also point 565 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: out that social factors such as group membership in the 566 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: media as well, can seemingly influence memories like this as 567 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: well quote socially driven distortions in memory. These and may 568 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: have several benefits for the individuals, such as improving social 569 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: relationships within a group, or they may improve social group coherence. 570 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: So false memories can be self enhancing in many ways, 571 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: but they can also be group enhancing. And in this 572 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: we're getting we're speaking broadly beyond merely like childhood memories, 573 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: but even getting into things where say you were a 574 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: part of a group, you join a group, where memories 575 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: of say even paranormal experiences have value. They bring you 576 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: closer to the people in a group, or they enhance 577 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: the overall connectivity of the group. 578 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: This is exactly what I was going to hypothesize earlier 579 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: when you were talking about so I brought up you know, 580 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 2: there are other ways that our brain consistently produces false beliefs, 581 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: and there you would suspect that there's probably an adaptive 582 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: reason for doing that, like there's survival benefit, that's why 583 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: our brains work that way. And my guess was going 584 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 2: to be social function that they're that the same way 585 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: that you know, we can have not false memories, but 586 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: false beliefs about the external world. These can easily be 587 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 2: induced through a concept known as identity protective cognition. You know, 588 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 2: people will reason in ways that are not strictly logical, 589 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: and will come to conclusions that they would find to 590 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: be false if they were disinterested in the issue. But 591 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: there is some social identity reason for coming to that belief. 592 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: You know, in order to fit in with my social group, 593 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: I need to be the kind of person that believes X. 594 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 2: So I actually I do believe X, and it is right. 595 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: And I think the same could easily be true of memories. 596 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 2: It probably matters more for your survival that you're getting 597 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: along good with your group than that, like, you actually 598 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: remember what happened last Tuesday a year ago correctly. So 599 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 2: if there's a way to remember that event incorrectly, but 600 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: that would be sort of like fun to share as 601 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: a group together to tell that story and I'll bond 602 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: and all feel good about each other, Well then maybe 603 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: you'll go that way. 604 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean all this makes sense, I think, 605 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: because of course humans are highly social creatures. We've talked 606 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: about this before. This has had an enormous impact on 607 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: the human animal So is it any surprise that we 608 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: help each other remember events of our past. Is it 609 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: any surprise that these memories may be distorted for the 610 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: betterment of one's own integration with a group or the 611 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: overall coherence of the group, Because for the social animal, 612 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: the group is not it's not just nice to have 613 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: like the group is survival. Being able to bond with 614 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: the group has uh has a real adaptive advantage, and 615 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: may and and and being able to fit in. Even 616 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: if you're distorting the actual occurrence of events in the past, 617 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: this may frequently outweigh the value of objective reality. 618 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 2: So it's better if all your friends are laughing about, Hey, 619 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 2: you remember that time Johnny, I don't know, yeah, chase 620 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: me with esteamed crab and you don't really remember that. 621 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 2: It's probably better for your brain to convince you you 622 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 2: do remember that, so you can laugh along with everybody 623 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 2: else than to say, like, no, I don't think that happened. 624 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, But again, these are generalizations, so you know, individual 625 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: experience is gonna is going to differ, and they're they're 626 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: all sorts of caveats that can come into play. But yeah, 627 00:36:50,239 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: I think this is fascinating to think about now. In 628 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: I think both of the last couple of episodes we 629 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: talked a little bit about myth babies and legendary babies 630 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: of history, child hercules, child Jesus, child Christian and so forth. 631 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: So I do have just a little bit more on this, 632 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: getting into the idea of the child hero and the 633 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: child saint. 634 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 2: Okay, we're gonna do another super baby sidebar here. 635 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this one, this one is going to end 636 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: up bringing up child mortality again. So my apologies. It 637 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: was not my intent to discuss this more, but in 638 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 1: just diving into the topic, it becomes an essential part 639 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: of understanding some of these traditions. Okay, so first of all, 640 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: just talking about infant heroes in Greek tradition. One paper 641 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: I was looking at here was Baby and Child Heroes 642 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: in Ancient Greece by kareem On Dina Pash. And when 643 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: it comes to the child hero proper and not merely 644 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: the infant form of an heroes, so not just merely 645 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: baby hercules, but like a child hero that is a 646 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: hero in and of itself. They are defined not by 647 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: their actions and exploits as with adult heroes, but by 648 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: their untimely deaths, which immortalize them as in hero cults. 649 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: And these include such examples as the children of Medea 650 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: and the children of Heracles. To quote Pash here quote 651 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: from parental fears and sense of guilt arise. The stories, songs, 652 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: and sanctuaries honoring child heroes, both myth and ritual, articulate 653 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: these very basic human anxieties, yet the emphasis is ultimately 654 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: on the beauty that transcends the gruesomeness of these narratives 655 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: and transforms dread into poetry. I think this is also 656 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: interesting to consider when you look at the long list 657 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: of child saints in the Christian tradition, and these include 658 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: both martyred children and adults, as well as children who 659 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: died at a young age, but were said to have 660 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: been very mature, very whole in their young life, in 661 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: a way that it's almost like they were they were 662 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 1: too holy for this world and therefore could not remain here. 663 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: So just a couple of examples to illustrate both of 664 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 1: these categories. There's Saint Rumwald of Buckingham from the year 665 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: six sixty two, said to have lived only for three days, 666 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: but the child was said to be able to speak 667 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 1: and profess his faith right away. In fact, it's, according 668 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: to the legend, requested his own baptism and even delivered 669 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: a sermon. 670 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 2: He requested it, but did he get it? 671 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: Did they baptize? Yeah, I believe that's part of the story. 672 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: He got the baptism and then got to deliver a sermon, 673 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: which you know is a comical image in some in 674 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: some ways, but also you understand where the like the 675 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: creative energy of this comes from, like the idea of 676 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: like a child, and the and the attachment we feel 677 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: to a child, the perfection and yet imperfection of a child. 678 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: And then if there is and and then when you 679 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: fact in these various faith models of how salvation is 680 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: supposed to work, if you you factor in just the 681 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: trauma of losing a young child, you can see where 682 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: stories like this could be created. And then, of course 683 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: you also have examples of martyrs. There is a Secarius 684 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: of Bethlehem said to have been killed in King Herod's 685 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: Masacre of the Innocence somewhere between seven and two BCE. 686 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: The alleged remains of the child are still held as 687 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: holy relics today. So in these cases, you know the 688 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: child didn't. It's not my understanding, at least in this case. 689 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: And this may vary from telling to telling a case 690 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: where the child itself is not said to have been 691 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,479 Speaker 1: holy or done anything holy, but was victim of something 692 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: or allegedly the victim of some sort of heinous act. 693 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd lean on allegedly on that one, because I 694 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 2: think the story of the slaughter of the innocence, from 695 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: what I recall, is largely considered to be legendary. 696 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's And of course it's very, very notable 697 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: that some of the more notorious examples of child martyrs 698 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: were utilized in cases of blood libel against Jewish communities. 699 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: Hugh of Lincoln in the thirteenth century and Simon Trent 700 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: in the fifteenth century, ving two prime examples. And these 701 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: are sadly not the only examples. You can pull out, 702 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: cases where the you know, the alleged murder of a 703 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: child was then used as an excuse for acts of 704 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: violence against communities that were blamed with that to death. 705 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: So obviously kind of a depressing place I need to 706 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: wind up in this tangent. And I didn't really again, 707 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: didn't really want to discuss dead children again, but I 708 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: guess it's unavoidable. You know, why does a child stand 709 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: out in a mythic narrative. It may be about who 710 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: that child will become, but there's also a weight to 711 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: the child that does not pass on into mythic adulthood. 712 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: You know. And it can be clearly be leveraged in 713 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: different ways as a rallying cry of martyrdom, as an 714 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: inspiration of innocence, as an inspiration for violence and horror. 715 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: You know. It can be the kind of narrative that 716 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: can circumvent the cruelty of the world or inspire more cruelty. 717 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: There's you know you can. You can go in various 718 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: directions with it. Now, one final thing I wanted to 719 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: discuss you a little bit, and I think we alluded 720 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: to it a little bit earlier in this episode, is that, 721 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed already, there are numerous examples 722 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: of suggested falsified memories to turn to, including memories of 723 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: various paranormal encounters, different forms of abuse, and indeed we 724 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: can also throw supposed memories of past lives into the mix. 725 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: You know you can, You'll have you You can certainly 726 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: find people who claim to remember very early childhood, people 727 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: who claim to remember their birth, but also people who 728 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: claim to remember a time before their birth before they 729 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: were born, either in the womb or before the womb, 730 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: in another life before the womb. Any you know, so 731 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: you know it's uh. This again speaks to the power 732 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: of our ability to create and falsify meaningful memories. And 733 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: it's not too big of a leap, right, If you 734 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: can already create a memory of a thing that didn't occur, 735 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: it's not too much of a leap to remember supposed 736 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: lives before this one as well, right, And there's a 737 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: lot of individuals have written on this and theorized on 738 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. Check. Psychiatrist Stanislav Groff theorized that 739 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: some near death experiences are actually a kind of channeling 740 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,439 Speaker 1: of birth memories, with the so called tunnel of light 741 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,479 Speaker 1: representing the birth canal. This is skeptical about that, Yes, yeah, 742 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: this is very Everyone has a right to be very 743 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: skeptical of this. I've seen it refuted by skeptics on 744 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,919 Speaker 1: a number of grounds, including that the experience of being 745 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: born would not look like this even if your infant 746 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: head were in the right position and your eyes were 747 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: actually open, and again you were capable of forming memories 748 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: like this. So I think there's very strong reasons to 749 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: be skeptical of this being an actual memory. But like 750 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: we've said, you get in there and you start tinkering 751 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: with your memories, start calling them, You start bringing in 752 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: content from different communities and learned individuals. You can start 753 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: augmenting things, you can start falsifying things, and what you 754 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: end up with can still be highly meaningful. It can 755 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: still you know, to you, it can also have an 756 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: impact on the creation of art and literature. If the 757 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: name standis left Grov sounds familiar. Longtime listeners might remember 758 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: it coming up in an episode that Christian and I 759 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: did on the art of hr Giger, because these very metaphors, 760 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, the tunnel of lie, near death, and pre birth. 761 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: These were explored in some of Giger's art work, and 762 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: Groff actually authored a twenty eighteen book of Giger's work 763 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: titled hr Giger and the Zeitgeist of the Twentieth Century. Graf, 764 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: by the way, was also a technical advisor on Douglas 765 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: Trumbull's nineteen eighty three film Brainstorm that had Christopher Walkin 766 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: in it. I believe so again not to say that 767 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: these can't be potent ideas, but they do seem to 768 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: stand outside of science. There you know, these are more 769 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: We're getting more into the area of religion and myth 770 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: and even the parent normal. But I think it all 771 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: speaks to just how invested we can become in the 772 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 1: story of us and those vast blank spaces in our 773 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: recollection as you know, as well as any glimmers that 774 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: we might sense in the dark that we could then 775 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: augment and accentuate into something else, something that is meaningful 776 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,240 Speaker 1: to us or makes us feel part of a group, 777 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: et cetera. And you know, there are examples of this 778 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: line of thinking from outside of science, concepts of pre 779 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: existence in various cultures. There's the concept of reincarnation or 780 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: the transmigration of the soul, and we see this in 781 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: various traditions, Greek traditions, early Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, medieval Jewish mysticism, 782 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: new religious movements, and so many more examples. 783 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 2: There were some early Christians who believed in reincarnation. 784 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was reading a little bit about this, 785 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of a pre immortal existence of 786 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: the soul. Various strains of thought concerning the not only 787 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: the idea that the human soul was was pre had 788 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: a pre existence that it was say, created before the 789 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: physical creation of the universe, and I guess, you know, 790 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 1: the souls are just setting around waiting to be installed 791 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: in a physical form. And then there is also a 792 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: fair amount of thought about the idea of the pre 793 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: existence of Jesus, of Jesus Christ, the idea that yes, 794 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: God is going to take on this sort of mortal 795 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: incarnation because he has to go to earth and die 796 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: for everyone sins and so forth. But but then there 797 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: are there are these some lines of thought that are like, okay, 798 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,479 Speaker 1: well what was he doing before then? And I guess 799 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 1: on one hand, you could say, well, he just had 800 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: God had not incarnated yet, so it's like he hadn't 801 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: butted off into a physical form. But then there are 802 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: these other lines of thought. It's like, oh, yeah, no, 803 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: he's there, He's just setting around waiting, but he just 804 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: hasn't gone to earth yet. For example, I was I 805 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: was reading that there was one early Christian theologian, I 806 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: believe this his origin of I'll think of Alexandria, I 807 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: lived at one eight five through two fifty three, taught 808 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: that human souls existed for before creation, and this was 809 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: something that he would later be accused of heresy for 810 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think the 811 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: big take home from all of this is that we 812 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: have an impressive ability to create meaningful memories out of 813 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: various sources that are not pure recollection to the limited 814 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: extent that there is recollection of anything. And you know, 815 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 1: I guess I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with 816 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 1: fostering memories of infancy, birth or life before birth, so 817 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: long as it improves one's quality of life and it 818 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 1: doesn't take anything away from you or others. You know, 819 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: if that's the case, then what's the harm in it? 820 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 2: I think the way I'd put my feeling is reminisce 821 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 2: and enjoy your memories, but also be aware of the 822 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 2: fact that some of them may not have a factual basis. 823 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, When I was thinking about this, I was 824 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: trying to think, well, how could it be harmful? And 825 00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,839 Speaker 1: I think that the main sticking point that I could 826 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:04,720 Speaker 1: come up with is if one's claims of false memories 827 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: could embolden harmful models and others. So this is just 828 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: a purely hypothetical scenario. But imagine that you, through one 829 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: method or another, we've discussed your fostered memory of alien 830 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: abduction that for you is awe inspiring and beneficial, Like 831 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: I remember seeing aliens when I was a child, and 832 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: isn't that great? I you know, this is my you know, 833 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 1: brain expanding cosmost appreciating moment. But what if your pronounced 834 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,720 Speaker 1: belief in these experiences enable someone else to further engage 835 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: in a harmful variation on it. Or on the other hand, 836 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: what if, here's another scenario, what if your harmless accounts 837 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: of a past life embolden someone else to and then 838 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: wind up in a situation where they're being manipulated or 839 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: conned by someone who is taking advantage of this you know, 840 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: longing for or recollection of a past. 841 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 2: Life, telling you this stuff is real and I can 842 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,720 Speaker 2: I can find your past selves for you for a price. 843 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, And you know, there's, of course, 844 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,879 Speaker 1: there can be a lot of gray area in any 845 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: scenario like that, but you know, and this is hypothetical, 846 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's worth considering. I think that 847 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 1: in any given paranormal area, you know, it's going to 848 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 1: be dependent on more than just mere professed experience and 849 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: or augmented or false memories. There may also be disingenuous 850 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,760 Speaker 1: actors involved, manipulators of disinformation, and of course just outright 851 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: con artists as well, So I don't know, food for thought. 852 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd reiterate what I said. I mean, you know 853 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 2: you can, you can enjoy all your family memories and 854 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 2: all the you know, all the good stuff, but also 855 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,240 Speaker 2: just be realistic about the fallibility of memory. 856 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 857 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, if there were a video camera present, it may 858 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 2: not actually have happened to the way you remember it. 859 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 2: But you know that our memories all we've got, yeah, 860 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 2: or in many cases it's all we got. I guess 861 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,919 Speaker 2: sometimes you did have a video camera there. 862 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you have the video, the video and you 863 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: have the photographs, which then can of course be used 864 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: to falsify memories. So yeah, there's and of course with 865 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,439 Speaker 1: advances and technology, things are only going to get more 866 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: complicated on that. On those grounds, All right, we're going 867 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,399 Speaker 1: to gohe and close out this trilogy of episodes here, 868 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: but we'd continue to love to hear from everyone out there. 869 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 1: If you have thoughts on early childhood memories, you want 870 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,760 Speaker 1: to share early childhood memories, you know, memories of past lives, 871 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: any of anything that falls under the under the heading 872 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: of the topic here, yeah, right in. We would love 873 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: to listen to you and discuss any of this, potentially 874 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: on future episodes of Listener Mail. Listener Mails published on Mondays. 875 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do short form artifact or monster fact episodes, 876 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on Fridays we 877 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside 878 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film. 879 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 880 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 881 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 882 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 883 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 884 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 2: dot com. 885 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 886 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,839 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 887 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:33,320 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.