WEBVTT - How A Poker Pro 'Reads' His Opponents 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.520 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:21.919 I'm Joe and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy. Today we're going 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.560 to talk about a subject that we've talked about a 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.040 lot on Odd Lots over the years, but I don't 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.880 think we've done an episode on it recently. Do you 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.559 know what it is? I mean, it could be anything, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.239 but go on, what is it? Okay, So I'll give 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.919 you another hint. It's a subject that I really like 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.040 and I'm interested in, and you always sort of claim 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.479 that you know nothing about it and are not interested 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.839 in it. Uh, it's totally not a claim, Joe, and 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:49.760 I think I know where you're heading with this. It's 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.960 the objective truth. I know nothing about the subject, and 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.520 if we were to engage in this particular subject together, 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.680 that would become rapidly apparent. Okay, Well, we're going to 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.440 do another episode about the game of poker, which I 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.480 really like, which a lot of people in markets and 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.240 finance like to do in their spare time. And the 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.880 reason is obviously because a lot of the things that 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.080 go on in trading and a lot of the decisions 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.960 that people have to make are similar to decisions that 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.320 people have to make in poker because there is the 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.040 sort of calculable aspect to it. There is math involved, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.839 but there's also a lot of psychology involved and things 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.480 that you just cannot brute force compute, and that's of 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.280 course what makes markets so interesting. We've obviously hit this 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.280 subject from many ways in the past. One thing that 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.880 we haven't really talked about is something that a lot 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.639 of people think is a very important aspect of poker, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.880 which is tells. And that is your city across from 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.360 someone at the other side of the table and they 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.080 do something weird like maybe they run their hand through 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.000 their hair, or they pick their nose or just whatever 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.520 it is weird, or they put on their sunglasses and 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.520 a big hand. You know, I'm just saying like different, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.120 different sort of impulses that people have. The people at 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.560 the table try to read, right, Uh so this is 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.079 something I mean, you have to be living under a 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.239 rock not to know about this one. But yeah, there 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:18.080 are tells and you're supposed to be able to read them, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.360 and that's going to help you in figuring out what 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.079 the other person's hand is and then maybe even if 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.079 you have a terrible hand, you can still beat them 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.919 using human psychology. I know this, yes, and I think 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.280 there's like I think in the movie Rounders, which is 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.880 about poker, there's some major stuff tells. Anyway, So today 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.639 we are going to be talking with a guest whose 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:43.520 specialty is exactly this reading poker tells and how you 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.760 can sort of watch someone and look at someone and 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.080 learn something about maybe what they're holding or their psychology 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.440 from their physical actions, and much in the same way 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.240 that other aspects of poker may have applications to other 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.000 things in the world, like investing and other sorts of 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.240 making decisions that involve risk. So too to poker tells. So, 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.720 without further ado on a brigand Zachary Ellwood. He is 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:14.240 the author of multiple books on the subject of poker tells. Zach, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.040 thank you very much for joining us. Hey, thank you, guys, 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.480 I appreciate it. Zach. What is your background and what 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:25.000 is a tell? How would you define a tell? Well, 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.440 I would say I have a more formal definition my book, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.440 but off the cuff, I would say it's a behavior 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:38.240 that gives information about something someone's hand in poker, obviously, 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.640 but outside of poker, you could, you know, just get 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.440 his information about anything that they're concealing. Why are you 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.040 qualified to tell us about poker tells. Sure, that's a 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.480 good question. Yeah. So basically, I played for a living 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.400 full time for about three and a half years. This was, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.240 you know, two thousand, forty two dozen seven time period, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.560 and since then i've played, you know, on the side supplementally. Uh. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.560 And before that, I grew up playing poker, and I've 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.120 always had an interest in it. During the poker boom, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.600 you know years which were when everyone was playing poker, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.800 which was about two thousand three two thousand eight or so, 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.120 somewhere in there, I was playing a lot of poker, playing, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.120 playing for a living and and supplementally, and I was 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.680 always wondering why there wasn't a better poker book, poker 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.320 tells book, And there were some books out there, but 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.440 I didn't think they were that good. So that's what 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.839 led me to, you know, being inspired to it. Wasn't 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.920 that I thought I was some super genius at the subject. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.080 It was more more like I thought I could do 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.560 a better job than what was out there currently. Well, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.080 so I know you say that you don't consider yourself 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.880 a super genius by any means, but when it comes 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.680 to telling tells As a poker player, how how can 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:56.440 you tell that you're good at recognizing tells versus just 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.680 good at playing poker, Like, what are the two different skills? There? 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.680 One thing I tell people I always try to communicate 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.240 up front is that tells are a small part of 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.160 winning live poker. You know, because you can be a 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.760 very good player and never think about tells. You can 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.560 be a very you know, highly winning player and never 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.080 think about tells. So there's kind of a romantic idea 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.320 that tells are super important in the game of poker. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.640 And I always like to make it clear to people that, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.560 you know, because experienced players know that, you know, strategy 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.960 is is the biggest part of the game. Uh. Tells 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.880 are sort of like the icing on the cake, something 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.000 you do to get get a little bit more edge 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.640 on people, and they can be really important, you know, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.240 some people, I'd estimated after talking to a lot of 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.040 experienced players too over the years. I think, you know, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.560 being good at reading tells can add you know, anywhere 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.360 from one to to your win rate, just depending on 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.960 how good you are strategically. They begin with and just 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.440 how good you are at reading tells, So there's a 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.719 wide range but most experienced players would say the range 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.240 is somewhere in that area of boosting your edge, right, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.360 like in movies about poker, which is probably where people 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.240 got this romantic notion about tells. There's obviously an over 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.239 emphasis on their importance because I don't know, it doesn't 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.360 seem very cinematic to depict someone who's genuinely good at 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.800 poker and folds forty hands in a row and sort 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:19.160 of waits until the implied pod odds are making so 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.159 they should bet, which is not as fun, not as fun, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.760 but it's much sexier to say that someone always does 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.360 the same shifted their seats when they have a big 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.120 hand or what they're bluffing. Yeah, the requirements of cinema 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.320 kind of it's it's interesting that how the requirements of 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:41.279 cinematic drama, you know, affect society and people's expectations, you know. 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.920 But yeah, it's uh, it's definitely much sexier side, which 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.599 is one of the reasons I think, you know, writing 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.080 about this stuff. There's a lot of people that have 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.640 written about poker strategy, you know, very good players, and 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.839 it's kind of hard for them to get much attention 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.440 for their books. But writing about poker tells, uh, you know, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.200 makes people listen a lot more like it's more mainstream. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:02.200 In other words, So since you're talking about movies, I'm curious, 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.600 Like in the movies, there's always you know, it's like 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.440 a really important hand and then the opponent does something 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.240 and the player is like a ha, I know that 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.600 he's lying or bluffing or whatever, and it's really dramatic. 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.160 So when it comes to tells, is there a hierarchy 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.800 of tells? Is like a verbal tell more important or 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.120 more informative than a physical tell. There's definitely a range 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.680 of reliability just in general, depending on certain behaviors. I mean, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.800 there's some behaviors that I would rank is highly reliable. 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.080 I would that I would rely on in a vacuum 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.400 without knowing anything about a player, just because they are 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.560 so generally reliable. And then there's other tells that you 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.440 want to be you would want to observe a player 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.360 more and see what category of behavior they're falling into 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.400 you generally, and then you know, there's a lot of 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.480 tells that are just you know, obviously not all tells, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.440 or there's lots of tells that might make you like, sure, 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.000 it's one way or another. But that can be very 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.360 important if you're in a big you know, a big 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.400 like on the fence scenario where you could go either 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.560 way between calling or folding. You know, So even a 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.440 little bit of information if you think, oh, this makes 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.960 it slightly more likely this guy is doing this, that 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.000 can be valuable too. But and also verbal. When you 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.200 mentioned verbal, I wrote a whole book on verbal poker 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.920 tails called verbal Poker Hotels, and spent eight months full 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.960 time working on that and actually learned a lot doing 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.760 it too. Because I initially thought, oh, I won't have 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.160 much to learn here. I kind of know what I 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.080 want to write. But the more I spent researching and 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.280 watching videos and taking notes when I played, I had 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.360 a lot more to say than I thought, and I 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.800 ended up concluding my My final takeaway was that verbal 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.160 poke tails when they're when they're present, when there's something 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.200 interesting there. When someone speaks during a hand, it's it's 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.040 much more reliable than physical poke taels. Just because they're 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.120 people are less. They don't know the patterns as much. Basically, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.800 they're not as well known when it comes to verbal patterns, 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.800 so people are are looser when it comes to their 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.600 talk So the first time I ever played poker actually 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.480 in a casino, I didn't know how I was going 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.319 to act, and I caught myself when I was bluffing. 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.440 I had no problems, sort of like keeping my composure 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.120 and just acting very relaxed. But when I had like 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.720 a winning hand or a big hand, I noticed looking 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.400 at my hands that I would shake more. And I 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.760 didn't know that. I didn't expect that would happen, but 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.679 it was something about myself that I noticed. So talk 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.760 to us about the sort of general framework. How do 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.319 you how do you start Let's say you sit down 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.000 at a table in a tournament or a cash game 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.000 in a casino. You've never seen any of the players before, 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.760 so you don't have any sort of preconceived reads on them. 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.560 How do you start to collect in your mind a 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:46.559 database of tells and uh put that to your advantage quickly. Yeah, 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:48.800 well that's a pretty big that's a pretty big question 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.199 started from scratch. But I'll give a few things that 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.120 I like to tell people as far as like the 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:57.160 most important things to look for. I'd say I contact 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.680 an eye movement in general when people are making large 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:05.280 beat is one of the most important behaviors to watch for. Basically, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.200 when somebody makes a big bet, where where are they looking? 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.880 How loose are their eye movements when they look you know, 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.800 say they look from their opponent back, you know, a 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:19.360 few times or something. In general, like the more restrained 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.080 his stoic behavior will be tied to um, you know, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.760 weak hands bluffs, whereas like the more relaxed behavior will 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.760 show itself as loose movements, loose eye movements basically like 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.240 more more dynamic, and that is restrained. So that's one 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.480 aspect of eye movement. And then the other one is 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.680 whether someone's looking at you or not looking at their 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.440 opponent or not after you know, when they're making a 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.000 big bet, and that can go either way, but in 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.880 general it's something you want to watch and see how 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.160 it's showed up before, and if you do get a 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.360 pattern of someone how they're acting over time, that can 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.280 be super valuable. And in general, looking at an opponent 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.280 after betting is going to be slightly more tied to 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.480 strength than weakness, just because most people are more comfortable 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.760 when they're betting a big hand, so they're more likely 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.640 to engage interact with an opponent, you know, with with 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.960 their eyes, including and most people, you know, when they're bluffing, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.120 want to avoid that they're uncomfortable. They just want to 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.520 sit there and not interact with anyone, right, So those 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.160 kind of things come out, and yeah, there's a lot 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.079 of variety there and a lot of that you want 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.320 to keep. You know, some people will be very stoic 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.400 and consistent, so it's it's more like you want to 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.040 see when people's One of the one of the magive 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.920 things to watch for in general, just in general foretells 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:34.439 is where where people are behavior varying their behavior, because 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.920 if someone's not varying their behavior in different spots, you know, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.520 it's pretty unlikely you're going to find a find to read. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.640 But the first thing to look for is when people 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.839 act differently in different spots. So seeing someone behave you know, 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.800 just seeing them alter their behavior a good amount in 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.679 different spots, you know, in the same situations over time, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:53.760 will give you an idea that you should be looking 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.880 at that person. So that's why in general, yeah, you'll 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.120 you'll be wanting to first study the people that seem 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.920 to have more varie d and less consistency in their behavior. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.200 You know, that's a that's just a general clue. So 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.720 on that note, Zach, is the best way to obscure 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.280 your own tells to basically try to be as consistent 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.560 as possible in in your behavior and just make sure 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.960 that you're sort of reacting the same way every time. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.000 Or or is it could you be super eccentric and 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.480 try to obscure it that way? Like which way should 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.880 you go? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean you 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.760 can go either way. Really, you can be stoic to 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.600 be consistent, or you can be highly variant and and 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.760 you know, eccentric as you say, and as long as 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.360 there's no correlations, no one's going to give anything from you. Um. Yeah, 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.000 I think the safer route is, you know, being stoic, 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.160 and that's what more people would you know, most most 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:49.880 people are going to have a hard time pulling off 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.520 the highly variant behavior. It's definitely possible, and I have 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.000 you know, there's plenty of examples of people who are 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.200 good at talking and moving around and being loose, you know, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.400 without giving any in a way. I mean, one of 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.120 one of the big things that just is just knowing 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.600 the common ways that information can leak, you know, with 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.480 your physical or oral behavior. So if you're aware of 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.600 those ways, you can definitely, you know, play with the 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.920 rules a little bit and and move around and talk 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.120 and not give anything away because you know the common 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.400 ways that you know, information might leak. And I think 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.319 what people get into trouble with is when they they 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.640 try to be fancy with their behavior or super loose 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.240 and they think that they're not giving any way, but 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.760 they're just not aware of some of the more common 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.640 ways that that can can happen, you know. So I think, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.319 you know, for example, some people try to do fancy 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.800 reverse psychology and trick trick and opponent, but those kind 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.720 of things can actually become that person's tells because they're 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.280 just not aware of how common that kind of reverse 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.800 psychology attempt is, you know. So they're they they're thinking 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.680 they're doing a reverse tell, but they're actually just having 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.760 to tell you know that that can happen a lot 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.199 for you know, the more inexperienced players. Yeah, I was 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.920 gonna ask exactly about that, like this idea of reverse tells, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.440 because I have to imagine that as awareness of tells 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.200 grows and people learn things like okay, if this guy 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.760 puts on his sunglasses and shoves a bunch of chips 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.160 into the middle of the table. It folds his arm 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.440 and looks down. This is like sort of like maybe 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.080 a classic bluff because he's trying to look super stoic 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.400 and badass. But then over time, if everybody sort of 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.440 believes that that's what a bluff looks like, then theoretically 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.720 people would change their behavior. So is there sort of 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.960 like a there's your mental catalog of what sort of 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.480 classes of tells look like, have to be sort of 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.560 constantly updated, have to sort of anticipate how people might change. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.080 Now that's that's kind of interesting thing about it. You 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.080 would think that that might happen with experienced players who are, 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.640 you know, operating on these multiple levels and trying to 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.120 full people, But really, when it comes down to it, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.960 you don't see that much. And the the reason is 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.320 because if you're trying to fool someone, say you have 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.200 two good a good players playing each other, it's just 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.600 really hard to predict how an opponent will interpret your behavior. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.160 And so it helps to explain a lot of things 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.600 I think outside of poker too, because theoretically there's all 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.760 these levels of deception, but when you get down to it, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.120 it's it's just super hard to know how someone will 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.720 interpret your behavior. And that means, you know, you would 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.120 have to be very sure that they would interpret it 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:28.840 in the way you want to interpret it. And and 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.760 that's hard to know because they might see you do 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.720 something and just pull the opposite conclusion. They might you 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.720 might be doing something on a second level of meaning, 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.640 but they're taking the first level of meaning, you know, 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.600 or you know, some an extra an extra level of meaning. 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.840 So there's for that reason you just won't see many 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:51.360 complex reverse towels. I see it very very infrequently, much 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.120 less frequently than I would have thought, you know, a 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.400 few years ago. And I think it's just because you know, 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.200 it's just for that reason that the main strategy is 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.240 just to be stoic and then occasionally made you do 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.880 some fairly simple reverse psychology. For example, one common one 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.000 that I've seen strong players do, but you know, I 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:09.800 think it's kind of died down a bit. As like that, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.840 it was well known that when someone someone bets and 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.680 they call it the clock on their opponent, you know, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.680 basically forcing their opponent to act in a certain time. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.400 When when the person whose bed has done that, typically 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.000 it shows that they're relaxed, right, because normally someone who's 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.840 bluffing wouldn't want to potentially anger their opponent by calling 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.160 the clock on it. So then but then you had 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.960 good players, you know, who recognize that, and they would 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.080 sometimes call the clock on other good players because they 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.440 knew that this other good player might would likely interpret 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.040 it as this guy being relaxed, you know. And good 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.080 players also try to take make use of the more 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.400 of the lesser known tells because they would be less 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.080 likely to rely on super well known tell just because 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.640 then it makes the other guy, I think, oh, that's 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.359 a super well known one. He wouldn't be likely to 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.480 do this because he's pretty decent, you know. So there's 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.440 these levels of you know, basically, the good players are 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.960 going to try to rely more on the on reversing 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.400 the lesser known tells that most people don't know because 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.960 they think that will that's more likely to be interpreted 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:10.720 in the way they want by another good player. So 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.400 there's just all that you always have to take into 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.520 account the skill level of your of your opponent, and 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.600 that's why it's so complicated because you just don't know 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:38.760 how it's going to be interpreted. So is anyone capable 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.440 of fully plugging all their leaks so they don't give 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.760 out any tells, or do the really experienced good players 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.840 do their tells just become more subtle. And I guess 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.720 that's sort of also speaks to the sort of broader 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.439 question of why do humans have tells? Why is it 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.199 so that, even against our best efforts, typically something in 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.240 our body or our speech betrays the truth that we're 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.679 trying to or the lie that we're trying to present. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.160 I think, in general, if you are experienced, if you've 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.840 played a lot, I mean, if you know the common 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.399 ways that information can leak, then I think you're gonna 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.800 be pretty good at being unreadable, you know, and except 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.320 in rare cases and unusual cases. But I think it's 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.960 it's easier than most people think. And I think, you know, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.200 it just basically takes making a concerted effort at understanding 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.240 what is possible and then focusing on those spots. I mean, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.359 I do think there are you know, let's say, a 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.800 very experienced live player who is you know, near unreadable. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.960 They still can have small tells. You know. For example, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.840 a lot of high stakes players like to wear scarfs 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.480 or high collars. You know, to cover up their neck 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:56.000 because the neck pulse can be even for experienced players 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.959 making a big bluff typically in a tournament. A tournament 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:00.960 is usually where it's it's going to bring it out 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.920 of people because those are much more higher stakes and 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:04.600 a lot more on the line than a cash game, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.960 for example. So they'll where, you know, they'll where things 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.000 that cover their neck pulse because uh, you know, you're 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.119 more likely experienced players anywhere are more likely to have 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.720 a fast heartbeat when they're bluffing. Them when they're value betting, 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.800 they're kind of you know, value betting in a in 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:20.560 when they have a strong hand, it's kind of old 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.480 hat to them. But even an experienced player can get 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:25.560 their blood pumping in a in a big tournament spot 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.359 where there's you know, theoretically a million million dollars on 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.360 the line or something. So I have two questions off 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.360 the back of that. One is if you can wear 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.680 a scarf and sunglasses while playing poker, could you come 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.400 in and just wear like a ski mask and completely 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.680 obscure your face? And then the other question is everything 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.960 we're talking about is you know physical or verbal tells 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.879 that you see when you're playing directly across from a person. 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:55.000 How much of this is applicable if you're playing poker online? 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.440 Oh yeah, So the first question about the ski mask, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.639 that's definitely a you know, a poker tournament or a 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.800 poker room specific question. I mean, I've seen videos of 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.359 people covering up their faces, but I think most a 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.040 lot of places wouldn't allow that. So yeah, it's definitely. Uh. 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.040 I mean, when people do it, obviously it's it's mostly 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:17.800 been a joke, but I'm sure there will come a 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.520 day when somebody you know, wants to do that in 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.000 a real situation for a lot of money, and then 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.439 they have to. Yeah, I think I think the I 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.320 think the more popular places don't really allow that, the 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.960 popular card rooms because you know, yeah, but it's a 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.119 good question how much how much can you cover up 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.199 if you can cover up part of your face, you know? 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:40.120 M hmm. What about the applicability online? Right? Yeah, I'd 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:45.000 say the only behaviors that are meaningful online that they 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:50.240 give information or the immediate immediate actions basically fast bets, 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.800 fast calls. Those are the bet timing or action timing 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.359 behaviors that I think contain the most meaning. I'm trying 0:20:58.359 --> 0:20:59.880 I don't think there's anything else I can think of 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:01.840 a top of my head, unless it's like somebody chatting 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.200