1 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: I'm Joe and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy. Today we're going 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: to talk about a subject that we've talked about a 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: lot on Odd Lots over the years, but I don't 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: think we've done an episode on it recently. Do you 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: know what it is? I mean, it could be anything, 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: but go on, what is it? Okay, So I'll give 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: you another hint. It's a subject that I really like 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: and I'm interested in, and you always sort of claim 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: that you know nothing about it and are not interested 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: in it. Uh, it's totally not a claim, Joe, and 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: I think I know where you're heading with this. It's 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: the objective truth. I know nothing about the subject, and 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: if we were to engage in this particular subject together, 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: that would become rapidly apparent. Okay, Well, we're going to 16 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: do another episode about the game of poker, which I 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: really like, which a lot of people in markets and 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: finance like to do in their spare time. And the 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: reason is obviously because a lot of the things that 20 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: go on in trading and a lot of the decisions 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: that people have to make are similar to decisions that 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: people have to make in poker because there is the 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: sort of calculable aspect to it. There is math involved, 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of psychology involved and things 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: that you just cannot brute force compute, and that's of 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: course what makes markets so interesting. We've obviously hit this 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: subject from many ways in the past. One thing that 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: we haven't really talked about is something that a lot 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 1: of people think is a very important aspect of poker, 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: which is tells. And that is your city across from 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: someone at the other side of the table and they 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: do something weird like maybe they run their hand through 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: their hair, or they pick their nose or just whatever 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: it is weird, or they put on their sunglasses and 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: a big hand. You know, I'm just saying like different, 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: different sort of impulses that people have. The people at 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: the table try to read, right, Uh so this is 38 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: something I mean, you have to be living under a 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: rock not to know about this one. But yeah, there 40 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: are tells and you're supposed to be able to read them, 41 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: and that's going to help you in figuring out what 42 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: the other person's hand is and then maybe even if 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: you have a terrible hand, you can still beat them 44 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: using human psychology. I know this, yes, and I think 45 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: there's like I think in the movie Rounders, which is 46 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: about poker, there's some major stuff tells. Anyway, So today 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: we are going to be talking with a guest whose 48 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: specialty is exactly this reading poker tells and how you 49 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: can sort of watch someone and look at someone and 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: learn something about maybe what they're holding or their psychology 51 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: from their physical actions, and much in the same way 52 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: that other aspects of poker may have applications to other 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: things in the world, like investing and other sorts of 54 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: making decisions that involve risk. So too to poker tells. So, 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: without further ado on a brigand Zachary Ellwood. He is 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: the author of multiple books on the subject of poker tells. Zach, 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Hey, thank you, guys, 58 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Zach. What is your background and what 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: is a tell? How would you define a tell? Well, 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: I would say I have a more formal definition my book, 61 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: but off the cuff, I would say it's a behavior 62 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: that gives information about something someone's hand in poker, obviously, 63 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: but outside of poker, you could, you know, just get 64 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: his information about anything that they're concealing. Why are you 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: qualified to tell us about poker tells. Sure, that's a 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: good question. Yeah. So basically, I played for a living 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: full time for about three and a half years. This was, 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, two thousand, forty two dozen seven time period, 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: and since then i've played, you know, on the side supplementally. Uh. 70 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: And before that, I grew up playing poker, and I've 71 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: always had an interest in it. During the poker boom, 72 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: you know years which were when everyone was playing poker, 73 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: which was about two thousand three two thousand eight or so, 74 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: somewhere in there, I was playing a lot of poker, playing, 75 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: playing for a living and and supplementally, and I was 76 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: always wondering why there wasn't a better poker book, poker 77 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: tells book, And there were some books out there, but 78 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: I didn't think they were that good. So that's what 79 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: led me to, you know, being inspired to it. Wasn't 80 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: that I thought I was some super genius at the subject. 81 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: It was more more like I thought I could do 82 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: a better job than what was out there currently. Well, 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: so I know you say that you don't consider yourself 84 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: a super genius by any means, but when it comes 85 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: to telling tells As a poker player, how how can 86 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: you tell that you're good at recognizing tells versus just 87 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: good at playing poker, Like, what are the two different skills? There? 88 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: One thing I tell people I always try to communicate 89 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: up front is that tells are a small part of 90 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: winning live poker. You know, because you can be a 91 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: very good player and never think about tells. You can 92 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: be a very you know, highly winning player and never 93 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: think about tells. So there's kind of a romantic idea 94 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: that tells are super important in the game of poker. 95 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: And I always like to make it clear to people that, 96 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, because experienced players know that, you know, strategy 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: is is the biggest part of the game. Uh. Tells 98 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: are sort of like the icing on the cake, something 99 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: you do to get get a little bit more edge 100 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: on people, and they can be really important, you know, 101 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: some people, I'd estimated after talking to a lot of 102 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: experienced players too over the years. I think, you know, 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: being good at reading tells can add you know, anywhere 104 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: from one to to your win rate, just depending on 105 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: how good you are strategically. They begin with and just 106 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: how good you are at reading tells, So there's a 107 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: wide range but most experienced players would say the range 108 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: is somewhere in that area of boosting your edge, right, 109 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: like in movies about poker, which is probably where people 110 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: got this romantic notion about tells. There's obviously an over 111 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: emphasis on their importance because I don't know, it doesn't 112 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: seem very cinematic to depict someone who's genuinely good at 113 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: poker and folds forty hands in a row and sort 114 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: of waits until the implied pod odds are making so 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: they should bet, which is not as fun, not as fun, 116 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: but it's much sexier to say that someone always does 117 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: the same shifted their seats when they have a big 118 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: hand or what they're bluffing. Yeah, the requirements of cinema 119 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: kind of it's it's interesting that how the requirements of 120 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: cinematic drama, you know, affect society and people's expectations, you know. 121 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's uh, it's definitely much sexier side, which 122 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons I think, you know, writing 123 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: about this stuff. There's a lot of people that have 124 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: written about poker strategy, you know, very good players, and 125 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard for them to get much attention 126 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: for their books. But writing about poker tells, uh, you know, 127 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: makes people listen a lot more like it's more mainstream. 128 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: In other words, So since you're talking about movies, I'm curious, 129 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: Like in the movies, there's always you know, it's like 130 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: a really important hand and then the opponent does something 131 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: and the player is like a ha, I know that 132 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: he's lying or bluffing or whatever, and it's really dramatic. 133 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: So when it comes to tells, is there a hierarchy 134 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: of tells? Is like a verbal tell more important or 135 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: more informative than a physical tell. There's definitely a range 136 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: of reliability just in general, depending on certain behaviors. I mean, 137 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: there's some behaviors that I would rank is highly reliable. 138 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: I would that I would rely on in a vacuum 139 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: without knowing anything about a player, just because they are 140 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: so generally reliable. And then there's other tells that you 141 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: want to be you would want to observe a player 142 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: more and see what category of behavior they're falling into 143 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: you generally, and then you know, there's a lot of 144 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: tells that are just you know, obviously not all tells, 145 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: or there's lots of tells that might make you like, sure, 146 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: it's one way or another. But that can be very 147 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: important if you're in a big you know, a big 148 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: like on the fence scenario where you could go either 149 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: way between calling or folding. You know, So even a 150 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: little bit of information if you think, oh, this makes 151 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: it slightly more likely this guy is doing this, that 152 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: can be valuable too. But and also verbal. When you 153 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: mentioned verbal, I wrote a whole book on verbal poker 154 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: tails called verbal Poker Hotels, and spent eight months full 155 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: time working on that and actually learned a lot doing 156 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: it too. Because I initially thought, oh, I won't have 157 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: much to learn here. I kind of know what I 158 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: want to write. But the more I spent researching and 159 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: watching videos and taking notes when I played, I had 160 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: a lot more to say than I thought, and I 161 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: ended up concluding my My final takeaway was that verbal 162 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: poke tails when they're when they're present, when there's something 163 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: interesting there. When someone speaks during a hand, it's it's 164 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: much more reliable than physical poke taels. Just because they're 165 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: people are less. They don't know the patterns as much. Basically, 166 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: they're not as well known when it comes to verbal patterns, 167 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: so people are are looser when it comes to their 168 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: talk So the first time I ever played poker actually 169 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: in a casino, I didn't know how I was going 170 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: to act, and I caught myself when I was bluffing. 171 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: I had no problems, sort of like keeping my composure 172 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: and just acting very relaxed. But when I had like 173 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: a winning hand or a big hand, I noticed looking 174 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: at my hands that I would shake more. And I 175 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: didn't know that. I didn't expect that would happen, but 176 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: it was something about myself that I noticed. So talk 177 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: to us about the sort of general framework. How do 178 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: you how do you start Let's say you sit down 179 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: at a table in a tournament or a cash game 180 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: in a casino. You've never seen any of the players before, 181 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: so you don't have any sort of preconceived reads on them. 182 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: How do you start to collect in your mind a 183 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: database of tells and uh put that to your advantage quickly. Yeah, 184 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: well that's a pretty big that's a pretty big question 185 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: started from scratch. But I'll give a few things that 186 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: I like to tell people as far as like the 187 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: most important things to look for. I'd say I contact 188 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: an eye movement in general when people are making large 189 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: beat is one of the most important behaviors to watch for. Basically, 190 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: when somebody makes a big bet, where where are they looking? 191 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: How loose are their eye movements when they look you know, 192 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: say they look from their opponent back, you know, a 193 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: few times or something. In general, like the more restrained 194 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: his stoic behavior will be tied to um, you know, 195 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: weak hands bluffs, whereas like the more relaxed behavior will 196 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: show itself as loose movements, loose eye movements basically like 197 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: more more dynamic, and that is restrained. So that's one 198 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: aspect of eye movement. And then the other one is 199 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: whether someone's looking at you or not looking at their 200 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: opponent or not after you know, when they're making a 201 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: big bet, and that can go either way, but in 202 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: general it's something you want to watch and see how 203 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: it's showed up before, and if you do get a 204 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: pattern of someone how they're acting over time, that can 205 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: be super valuable. And in general, looking at an opponent 206 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: after betting is going to be slightly more tied to 207 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: strength than weakness, just because most people are more comfortable 208 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: when they're betting a big hand, so they're more likely 209 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: to engage interact with an opponent, you know, with with 210 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: their eyes, including and most people, you know, when they're bluffing, 211 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: want to avoid that they're uncomfortable. They just want to 212 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: sit there and not interact with anyone, right, So those 213 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: kind of things come out, and yeah, there's a lot 214 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: of variety there and a lot of that you want 215 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: to keep. You know, some people will be very stoic 216 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: and consistent, so it's it's more like you want to 217 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: see when people's One of the one of the magive 218 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: things to watch for in general, just in general foretells 219 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: is where where people are behavior varying their behavior, because 220 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: if someone's not varying their behavior in different spots, you know, 221 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty unlikely you're going to find a find to read. 222 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: But the first thing to look for is when people 223 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: act differently in different spots. So seeing someone behave you know, 224 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: just seeing them alter their behavior a good amount in 225 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: different spots, you know, in the same situations over time, 226 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: will give you an idea that you should be looking 227 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: at that person. So that's why in general, yeah, you'll 228 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: you'll be wanting to first study the people that seem 229 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: to have more varie d and less consistency in their behavior. 230 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: You know, that's a that's just a general clue. So 231 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: on that note, Zach, is the best way to obscure 232 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: your own tells to basically try to be as consistent 233 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: as possible in in your behavior and just make sure 234 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: that you're sort of reacting the same way every time. 235 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: Or or is it could you be super eccentric and 236 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: try to obscure it that way? Like which way should 237 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: you go? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean you 238 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: can go either way. Really, you can be stoic to 239 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: be consistent, or you can be highly variant and and 240 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: you know, eccentric as you say, and as long as 241 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: there's no correlations, no one's going to give anything from you. Um. Yeah, 242 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: I think the safer route is, you know, being stoic, 243 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: and that's what more people would you know, most most 244 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: people are going to have a hard time pulling off 245 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: the highly variant behavior. It's definitely possible, and I have 246 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's plenty of examples of people who are 247 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: good at talking and moving around and being loose, you know, 248 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: without giving any in a way. I mean, one of 249 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: one of the big things that just is just knowing 250 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: the common ways that information can leak, you know, with 251 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: your physical or oral behavior. So if you're aware of 252 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: those ways, you can definitely, you know, play with the 253 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: rules a little bit and and move around and talk 254 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: and not give anything away because you know the common 255 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: ways that you know, information might leak. And I think 256 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: what people get into trouble with is when they they 257 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: try to be fancy with their behavior or super loose 258 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: and they think that they're not giving any way, but 259 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: they're just not aware of some of the more common 260 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: ways that that can can happen, you know. So I think, 261 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: you know, for example, some people try to do fancy 262 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: reverse psychology and trick trick and opponent, but those kind 263 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: of things can actually become that person's tells because they're 264 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: just not aware of how common that kind of reverse 265 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: psychology attempt is, you know. So they're they they're thinking 266 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: they're doing a reverse tell, but they're actually just having 267 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: to tell you know that that can happen a lot 268 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: for you know, the more inexperienced players. Yeah, I was 269 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: gonna ask exactly about that, like this idea of reverse tells, 270 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: because I have to imagine that as awareness of tells 271 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: grows and people learn things like okay, if this guy 272 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: puts on his sunglasses and shoves a bunch of chips 273 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: into the middle of the table. It folds his arm 274 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: and looks down. This is like sort of like maybe 275 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: a classic bluff because he's trying to look super stoic 276 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: and badass. But then over time, if everybody sort of 277 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: believes that that's what a bluff looks like, then theoretically 278 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: people would change their behavior. So is there sort of 279 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: like a there's your mental catalog of what sort of 280 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: classes of tells look like, have to be sort of 281 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: constantly updated, have to sort of anticipate how people might change. 282 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: Now that's that's kind of interesting thing about it. You 283 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: would think that that might happen with experienced players who are, 284 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: you know, operating on these multiple levels and trying to 285 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: full people, But really, when it comes down to it, 286 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: you don't see that much. And the the reason is 287 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: because if you're trying to fool someone, say you have 288 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: two good a good players playing each other, it's just 289 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: really hard to predict how an opponent will interpret your behavior. 290 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: And so it helps to explain a lot of things 291 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: I think outside of poker too, because theoretically there's all 292 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: these levels of deception, but when you get down to it, 293 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: it's it's just super hard to know how someone will 294 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: interpret your behavior. And that means, you know, you would 295 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: have to be very sure that they would interpret it 296 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: in the way you want to interpret it. And and 297 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: that's hard to know because they might see you do 298 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: something and just pull the opposite conclusion. They might you 299 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: might be doing something on a second level of meaning, 300 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: but they're taking the first level of meaning, you know, 301 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: or you know, some an extra an extra level of meaning. 302 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: So there's for that reason you just won't see many 303 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: complex reverse towels. I see it very very infrequently, much 304 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: less frequently than I would have thought, you know, a 305 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: few years ago. And I think it's just because you know, 306 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: it's just for that reason that the main strategy is 307 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: just to be stoic and then occasionally made you do 308 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: some fairly simple reverse psychology. For example, one common one 309 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: that I've seen strong players do, but you know, I 310 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: think it's kind of died down a bit. As like that, 311 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: it was well known that when someone someone bets and 312 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: they call it the clock on their opponent, you know, 313 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: basically forcing their opponent to act in a certain time. 314 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: When when the person whose bed has done that, typically 315 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: it shows that they're relaxed, right, because normally someone who's 316 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: bluffing wouldn't want to potentially anger their opponent by calling 317 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: the clock on it. So then but then you had 318 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: good players, you know, who recognize that, and they would 319 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: sometimes call the clock on other good players because they 320 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: knew that this other good player might would likely interpret 321 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: it as this guy being relaxed, you know. And good 322 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: players also try to take make use of the more 323 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: of the lesser known tells because they would be less 324 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: likely to rely on super well known tell just because 325 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: then it makes the other guy, I think, oh, that's 326 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,359 Speaker 1: a super well known one. He wouldn't be likely to 327 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: do this because he's pretty decent, you know. So there's 328 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: these levels of you know, basically, the good players are 329 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: going to try to rely more on the on reversing 330 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: the lesser known tells that most people don't know because 331 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: they think that will that's more likely to be interpreted 332 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: in the way they want by another good player. So 333 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: there's just all that you always have to take into 334 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: account the skill level of your of your opponent, and 335 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: that's why it's so complicated because you just don't know 336 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: how it's going to be interpreted. So is anyone capable 337 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: of fully plugging all their leaks so they don't give 338 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: out any tells, or do the really experienced good players 339 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: do their tells just become more subtle. And I guess 340 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: that's sort of also speaks to the sort of broader 341 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: question of why do humans have tells? Why is it 342 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: so that, even against our best efforts, typically something in 343 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: our body or our speech betrays the truth that we're 344 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: trying to or the lie that we're trying to present. 345 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: I think, in general, if you are experienced, if you've 346 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: played a lot, I mean, if you know the common 347 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: ways that information can leak, then I think you're gonna 348 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: be pretty good at being unreadable, you know, and except 349 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: in rare cases and unusual cases. But I think it's 350 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: it's easier than most people think. And I think, you know, 351 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: it just basically takes making a concerted effort at understanding 352 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: what is possible and then focusing on those spots. I mean, 353 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: I do think there are you know, let's say, a 354 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: very experienced live player who is you know, near unreadable. 355 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: They still can have small tells. You know. For example, 356 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: a lot of high stakes players like to wear scarfs 357 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: or high collars. You know, to cover up their neck 358 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: because the neck pulse can be even for experienced players 359 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: making a big bluff typically in a tournament. A tournament 360 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: is usually where it's it's going to bring it out 361 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: of people because those are much more higher stakes and 362 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: a lot more on the line than a cash game, 363 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: for example. So they'll where, you know, they'll where things 364 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: that cover their neck pulse because uh, you know, you're 365 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: more likely experienced players anywhere are more likely to have 366 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: a fast heartbeat when they're bluffing. Them when they're value betting, 367 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: they're kind of you know, value betting in a in 368 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: when they have a strong hand, it's kind of old 369 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: hat to them. But even an experienced player can get 370 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: their blood pumping in a in a big tournament spot 371 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: where there's you know, theoretically a million million dollars on 372 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: the line or something. So I have two questions off 373 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: the back of that. One is if you can wear 374 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: a scarf and sunglasses while playing poker, could you come 375 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: in and just wear like a ski mask and completely 376 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: obscure your face? And then the other question is everything 377 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about is you know physical or verbal tells 378 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: that you see when you're playing directly across from a person. 379 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: How much of this is applicable if you're playing poker online? 380 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So the first question about the ski mask, 381 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: that's definitely a you know, a poker tournament or a 382 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: poker room specific question. I mean, I've seen videos of 383 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: people covering up their faces, but I think most a 384 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: lot of places wouldn't allow that. So yeah, it's definitely. Uh. 385 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, when people do it, obviously it's it's mostly 386 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: been a joke, but I'm sure there will come a 387 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: day when somebody you know, wants to do that in 388 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: a real situation for a lot of money, and then 389 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: they have to. Yeah, I think I think the I 390 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: think the more popular places don't really allow that, the 391 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: popular card rooms because you know, yeah, but it's a 392 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: good question how much how much can you cover up 393 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: if you can cover up part of your face, you know? 394 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: M hmm. What about the applicability online? Right? Yeah, I'd 395 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: say the only behaviors that are meaningful online that they 396 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: give information or the immediate immediate actions basically fast bets, 397 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: fast calls. Those are the bet timing or action timing 398 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: behaviors that I think contain the most meaning. I'm trying 399 00:20:58,359 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything else I can think of 400 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: a top of my head, unless it's like somebody chatting 401 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: in the in the chat, I think so basically, And 402 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: the most meaningful of that is the fast call. Basically, 403 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: say you've got the flop, which is for non poker players, 404 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: when the first three cards come out and you bet, 405 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: you bet that flop and then somebody calls you really quick. 406 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: In general, quick calls early in the hand, they're gonna 407 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: indicate medium strength to weak hands, basically because somebody with 408 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: a strong hand is generally gonna at least consider raising 409 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: you in that spot because they want to maximize value. 410 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: So they're gonna even if they decide to call you, 411 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: they're gonna give it a little bit of thought and 412 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: be like should I call here or should I raise? 413 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: So those quick calls can be really meaningful for narrowing 414 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: down a player's range to the weaker side of the range, 415 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: and then that can encourage you to keep keep bluffing. 416 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: For example, later in the hand. Let's talk a little 417 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: bit about the psychology of tells as they apply outside 418 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: of poker. So obviously people have this, you know, for 419 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: whatever reason, an inability off to hide the truth, even 420 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: when they're trying to obscure it. Sometimes it's as simple 421 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: as a vein pulsing in their neck that signals a 422 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: faster heartbeat. What is the you know we're talking about earlier? 423 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: A lot of the lessons of poker are applicable elsewhere. 424 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: That's why we keep coming back to the subject. So 425 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: in your research and in your work, what is the 426 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: sort of abstractable lessons from reading poker tells that might 427 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: be useful to people off the table? Yeah, I mean, 428 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: I think it's it's tough one to answer, because I 429 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: think poker is such a unique space. I think it's 430 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: more that the general behavioral you know, being good at 431 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: being focused on people's behavior in general can make you 432 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: good at reading people in general and poker or other places. 433 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: But I think poker is so unique because it's even 434 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: even amongst other competitive games. I would say getting good 435 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: at poker tells will definitely help you with other competitive situations, 436 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: whether it's other games, or whether it's negotiations or high 437 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: stakes business meetings or whatever. And I think there are 438 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: some takeaways. And I've definitely had people tell me they 439 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: read my books and got better as as lawyers and 440 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: as doctors like understanding getting more empathetic with the how 441 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: their how their patients were acting, which was really cool 442 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: for me to hear, because you know, I didn't have 443 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: high hopes said it would that kind of stuff translates 444 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: to other things. But I definitely think there's a lot 445 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: of a lot of things that just makes more sense 446 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: when you key into them at the poker table, like, 447 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: for example, that the eye contact stuff. You know, you 448 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: can you can get a lot of information about where 449 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: people look and if they avoid contact with one person 450 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: over time, you know, it can tell you that they 451 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: don't like that person or whatever. You know, there's those 452 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: kinds of little things that come up, signs of discomfort 453 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: and pauses and speech and things like that. Yeah, I 454 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: think I think it applies to a lot of things, 455 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: but I think it definitely applies to the more competitive situations. 456 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: So Zach, on this note, you actually have your own 457 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: podcast that that's sort of on this topic about how 458 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: people in various professions sort of read other people. What's 459 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: been the most interesting takeaway from that, Like, what's one 460 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: really interesting anecdote that you hadn't considered before. Yeah, there's 461 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: a lot of I've had a lot of fun with 462 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: that show. I really liked the interview I did with 463 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: Mark mcclisch, who wrote a book called I Know You 464 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: Are Lying, and it was about statement analysis, and he 465 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: used to do training with the U. S. Marshals and 466 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: other law enforcement. He wrote books about analyzing written and 467 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: verbal statements, and he was kind of partial influence and 468 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: inspiration for me writing the Verbal Poker Tells book, you know, 469 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: kind of taking that really focused idea of focusing on 470 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: language and bringing it to the poker table. That was 471 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: partially you know, I was inspired by him, so that 472 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: I really am a fan of that one. But just 473 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: recently I did an interview of an experienced restaurant industry 474 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: service industry worker. He's managed restaurants and everything and eat. 475 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: It's just some really interesting psychological tips on how, you know, 476 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: eight staff is trained to get better tips using certain 477 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: verbal patterns. You know, that's something I wouldn't have considered, 478 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, apparently that's like something they do in the 479 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: in the restaurant chain business, you know, as a common 480 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: you know, using these kind of like behind the scenes 481 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: psychological strategies for putting people at ease and getting better 482 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: tips and stuff like that. So yeah, that that was 483 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: my concept for the podcast was just these interesting kind 484 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: of hidden instances of psychology and manipulation, you know, Zack. 485 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: Before we go, I gotta ask, what's the weirdest poker 486 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: tell You've ever seen? Because some of them were sort 487 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: of obvious across your arms and looking down. What's something 488 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: very uh strange that you've seen? Yeah, you know, I 489 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: should have a better ready answer for that. But one 490 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: that just came out recently was somebody somebody had the 491 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: most tells I've ever seen in like a short period 492 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: of time. It was from this show Live at the 493 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: Bike what they play on camera with hull Cards in 494 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: California at the Bicycle Casino, and I wrote I wrote 495 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: a piece about it for Poker News dot com. But 496 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: and it was just it was just so many tells 497 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: of strong hand basically in such a short period of time. 498 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: Like it was basically like six different things I wrote about, 499 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: you know, and and called out. I can't think of 500 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: a really crazy ones were yeah, think they were the 501 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: They were the normal ones, like nothing, you know, nothing 502 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: too crazy. It was like acting uncertain before making a 503 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: decent size bed and like a little shrug behavior and uh, 504 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: you know all these signs of basically that acting acting 505 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: week when you're actually strong, you know, those kinds of things. 506 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: So lots of cliches. Yeah, I kind of clicheates, But 507 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything. I mean, I'm sure there's 508 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: there's definitely, uh, some weird ones I've encountered, but nothing's 509 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 1: screamed to mind. All right, Well, Zachary l Wood, Poker 510 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: tell Experts really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Oh, 511 00:26:51,080 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: thank you, guys, I appreciate it. It's my honor, Tracy, 512 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that episode. I love this idea that 513 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: the demands of cinematic drama have sort of changed the 514 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: way people view real life because obviously, again going back 515 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: to how you would depict the game of poker, tells 516 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: are probably the most interesting thing you could depict visually, 517 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: even if the impact on the game in most games 518 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: is pretty marginal. Right, It's kind of hard to visually 519 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: depict someone thinking about whether they should draw another card 520 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: or not. Joe, I gotta ask, what's your biggest tell 521 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: when you play? Do you know? Oh? I really I 522 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: do have a problem with my handshaking. I'm like, and 523 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: I have that always, like if I just like pick 524 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: up a glass or anything, or am I an slightly 525 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: uncomfortable position my people who knows my handshakes, But it 526 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,239 Speaker 1: definitely gets accelerated at the poker table, and I think 527 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: it's typically when I have a winning hand. But now 528 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, if anyone hears that, you can't be sure 529 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: that I'm not trying to psych you out. Oh yeah, 530 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: it might be a reverse tell, or it could be 531 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: a reverse reverse tell. We'll never know. Remind me why 532 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: poker overlaps with finance and markets so much. I know 533 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: a lot of finance people are competitive and they like 534 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: playing games for money, so sure they play poker, But 535 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: what's the applicability of the things we learn from poker 536 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: to markets and investing. I think it really has to 537 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: do with the fact that you can only It's a 538 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: very open ended game and you can only have You 539 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: could never calculate the odds perfectly. So there are other 540 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: games of chance. There are other gambling games in which 541 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: you know the odds going in. So, for example, if 542 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: you were to play roulette, you know going in the 543 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: odds that on any given spin it's either going to 544 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: be black or red or a specific number, and you 545 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: could calculate them perfectly. It is impossible to do that 546 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: in poker because obviously there's math involved, but you just 547 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: cannot fully calculate how the humans are going to perform 548 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: elsewhere on the table. And I think that's like that's 549 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: the relevance to markets, Like we we know all the data, 550 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: we're drowning in data, but you can't fully calculate how 551 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: people are going to behave under periods of extreme stress, 552 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: under periods of tension and panics. You four is, there's 553 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: only so much you can number crunch, and there's a 554 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: certain element of human judgment reading the room, reading, the table, reading, 555 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: and that's why people try to uh, you know, positioning 556 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: and sentiment, all these measures to sort of get at 557 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: the aspects of the market that people can't really fully calculate. 558 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: The humans are the wild card. Yeah, look, look I 559 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: made a card pun Okay, great, very well, all right, 560 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: Well we've done another episode on poker, so it's it's 561 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: my turn next week and we're going to get back 562 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: to capital flows and emerging markets. I think great. I 563 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: can't wait. Okay, this has been an another episode of 564 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow 565 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wise 566 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: It though. You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart, 567 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: and you should follow our guest on Twitter, Zachary Lwood. 568 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: His handle is a poker player. He's also the host 569 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: of the People Who Read People podcasts. You should check 570 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: that out. He discusses psychology and behavior at various activities, 571 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: and you should follow our producers on Twitter to for 572 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: for Foreheads He's at foreheads T as well as Laura Carlson. 573 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: She's at Laura M. Carlson and don't forget to follow 574 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca Leap at Francesco Today. 575 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.