1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 2: a very special round table podcast today where we're going 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: to discuss the United States ongoing campaign of bombing small 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: boats in the Caribbean. I'm joined by Michael Pahlberg, an 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: associate professor of political science at Virginior Commonwealth University and 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: a fellow at the Center for National Policy. Hi Michael, 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: thanks for joining us. 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: And Andrew is also here. Listeners of the show will 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: be familiar with Andrew's work. He joins very often, but 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: in this instance, Andrew is talking as someone who is 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: from Trinidad and Tobago, which of course is very much 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: being impacted by this. 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: Hey, Andy, what's going on? 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: Not much? Well, let's talk about what's going on, because 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: something quite perfstantial is going on. What's going on is 18 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: that the United States is carrying out a campaign of 19 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: drone strikes against small vessels in the Caribbean. As far 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: as we know, there have been seven strikes. At least 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: thirty two people have been killed, two people have been 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: detained and then repatriated, and a number of vessels have 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: been struck. The US it's bringing its war on terrorism 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: logic to the Western Hemisphere rate, it's claiming that it's 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: fighting narco terrorism, and it's claiming that these boats are 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: for the most part carrying Venezuelan nationals coming out of Venezuela. 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 2: We've heard from Colombia that one Colombian national has been killed. 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: The two people who had detained were Ecuadorian and Colombian 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: to Trinidadian or Trinidad and Tobago nationals have been killed 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: as well. And this has sparked something of a and 31 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: what it was a war of words, now it seems 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: to be a war of more than that, tariffs and 33 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: sanctions and if Columbia has withdrawn their diplomat from DC 34 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: as of today or yesterday, so it sparks significant political 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: turmoil in the Western hemisphere. I think we have a 36 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: really good panel to talk about that. So to begin with, 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: I guess we should start Michael. Can you explain their 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: accusation here right is that these people are members of trend, 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: Deer Ragua or potentially some other cartels that the term 40 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: administration likes to talk about. We've talked about the prevalence 41 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: of those groups, but can you explain very briefly what 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: they are, and I suppose the function that they have 43 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: in Venezuela or what they're doing there versus what's been 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 2: claimed that they're doing. 45 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 4: So sure, I do research on organized crime in Latin America, 46 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 4: and Rene de Ragua is a real organized criminal group 47 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 4: in Venezuela and now all over Latin America. It is 48 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 4: a street gang that started out as a prison gang. 49 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 4: It does not primarily engage in international drug trafficking, moving 50 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: large quantities of drugs across national borders or across oceans. 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 4: It is primarily engaged in human trafficking. 52 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 3: And extortion rackets. 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 4: And it primarily follows the Venezuelan and Niascara people who 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 4: have left Venezuela. And at this point it's an incredible 55 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 4: twenty percent of the population over the last ten years 56 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 4: of Maduro's presidency, so nearly eight million people. Wherever they 57 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 4: go and they take advantage of them, They extort them 58 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 4: for money. They will also take money to move them 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: across borders. But they're not a cartel in the way 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 4: that we traditionally think about cartels like the Sinalo cartel 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 4: or some of the Columbian cartels that are engaged in 62 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 4: international cocaine trafficking, and so it's highly unlikely that if 63 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 4: the Trump administration is striking boats that they claim to 64 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 4: be vessels transporting cocaine or vensional, which is not made 65 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. It's primarily made in Mexico using precursors from China, 66 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 4: and increasingly it's actually in the United States. Even that 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 4: it's a tilt synthetic drug, that's possible, and Venezuela, of 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 4: course is not one of the countries where coca is 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 4: grown and therefore cocaine comes from. If they are indeed 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 4: striking drug boats, then they probably wouldn't be traded Aaga, 71 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 4: and if they're striking boats with Brenda Arragua, they would 72 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 4: be most likely striking migrant smuggling vessels, in which case 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 4: the death account would likely be much higher. 74 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 75 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we should talk about the other Caribbean nations now, 76 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: I guess I want to talk about Trindent Tobago, but 77 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: we should probably cover Columbia first, right, because we've seen 78 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: significant pushback from Petro, president of Columbia, and then we've 79 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: recently seen the President of the United States accused Petro, 80 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: who is again president of Columbia, of being a drug 81 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: trafficker himself, which is a fairly ludicrous claim on the 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: face of it. But let's talk about Petro because he 83 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 2: has some background in opposition to organize crime and drug smuggling. Actually, right, 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: like he's in this for a while. Can you explain 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: a little bit of his career and then his recent stances. 86 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, So Petro is a mercurial figure in Columbian politics, 87 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: has been for a long time. He is known for 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 4: starting his career as a gorilla with a minor anti 89 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 4: government guerrilla movement called the M nineteen movement. Now, this 90 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 4: is the movement which I don't know, maybe Western audiences 91 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 4: are familiar with from the Netflix series Narcos, for having 92 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 4: participated carried out the Palace of Justice siege at the 93 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 4: Columbian Supreme Court, which was a major disaster in which 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 4: the Columbian military went in guns blazing to rescue hostages, 95 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 4: Supreme Court justices and other people just employed in the 96 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,119 Speaker 4: Palace of Justice, and most everyone died in a fire 97 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 4: as a result. Petro was not involved in that operation 98 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 4: as far as anyone knows. He was not involved in 99 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 4: eight violent confrontations and this organization, unlike the fark and 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 4: the ln never really got on the cocaine money train 101 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 4: and therefore didn't last as long as those other organizations did. 102 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 4: They did demobilize, they did turn to peaceful politics, and 103 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 4: Petro began his political career at the local level Bogota 104 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 4: and then eventually reached the presidency. So he is someone 105 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 4: with a long political career and does have a constituency, 106 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: does have a base, and he is the first truly 107 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 4: left wing leader of Colombia, country that has been famously 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 4: both ruled by the right and also very closely allied 109 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:36,119 Speaker 4: to the US. 110 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: It's really the US. 111 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 4: It is top ally in Latin America, well in South America, 112 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 4: at least specifically on security, given Plan Colombia and the 113 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 4: long history of US giving as much as ten billion 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 4: dollars over time to beef up Colombia's counterinsurgency and counter 115 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: narcotics fights on our behalf. 116 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: Get to acuse of president of being a dry kraft 117 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: is fairly ludicrous, Like he's been like even in time 118 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: as a senator, right he was like I think he 119 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: was sharing some like investigations or committees that looked to 120 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: drug smuggling if I remember correctly. 121 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so I would say Petro has been very 122 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 4: critical of the war on drugs approach generally, but he 123 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 4: does still inherit this long standing, deep relationship with the 124 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 4: United States, and he's not exactly a full on peacenick 125 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 4: when it comes to his own internal security. He did 126 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 4: come it off as promising what he called total peace possibibal, 127 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 4: a platform that was meant to put an end to 128 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: all armed in certainties in the country by making a 129 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: deal with the remaining combatant groups, namely the ELN, the 130 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: dissident bar guerrillas, those who did not agree to the 131 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: peace deal signed by Santos in twenty sixteen, and what's 132 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 4: in different terms called the Klandel GORGEPO or the AGC 133 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 4: the Guy Thomas to self defense Forces, but one of 134 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 4: the largest national narco paramilitary group that descends from the 135 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 4: old AUC. And he has failed in that and talks 136 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 4: have broken off with. 137 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: Those other armed groups. 138 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 4: Colombia has gone back to war against them. The ELN 139 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: has engaged in some pretty horrific violence, including a suicide 140 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 4: car bombing the police barracks and the distant FARC as 141 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 4: well taking down a helicopter and a drone attack. So 142 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 4: there has been a return to fairly high level, you know, 143 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 4: armed insurgency in Colombia, even if it's nowhere near the 144 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 4: level it was from the late nineties and early two thousands. 145 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And all of this is happening in the Caribbean, 146 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: which is not a vast ocean, right, It's not a 147 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: massive area of space. And Sandra and I were talking 148 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: about before we recorded. This has impacted other Caribbean nations, 149 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: nations which are not the target of the Trump administration's aggression, 150 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: but nonetheless are being subjected to it. Do you want 151 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: to talk Andrew, Trinida and Tobago's in a particularly kind 152 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: of interesting the right word. It's not a great situation, right, 153 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: because Trinidadian people are being killed, at least two and 154 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: the government is apparently completely unconcerned with this. 155 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 5: Yes, I suppose I should provide some context. So there 156 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 5: have been seven strikes to date, and the fifth strike 157 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 5: resulted in the deaths of two fishermen from the village 158 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 5: of Las Guavas in Trinantobago being claimed among the victims. 159 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 5: The government Transbigo has not made a statement about it, 160 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 5: and the families have not really been contacted or provide 161 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 5: any sort of support. Now for those who are listening 162 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 5: who may not know where Trinaans Bigle is. It is 163 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 5: an independent Twin Ireland republic the Caribbean, and it's actually 164 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 5: geographically an extension of South America. There's a gulf that 165 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 5: separates it, but it's about eleven kilometers away from Venezuela 166 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 5: itself and our elections. It took place this year led 167 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 5: to the removal of the incumbent party and the return 168 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 5: of the United National Congress, the political party led by 169 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 5: Camera Posa Prossessor, claiming the government in a sweep landslide. Really, 170 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 5: but despite that landslide, it wasn't really the result of 171 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 5: popular support for the United National Congress. It was more 172 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 5: so the lack of support for the previous party, the 173 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 5: People's National Movement, which lost I believe two hundred thousand 174 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 5: or so of their usual voters just didn't show up 175 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 5: to vote for them this election, so the opposition party 176 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 5: came into power. When the opposition party wasn't the opposition 177 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 5: They in many ways appeared to just oppose for pose 178 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 5: and sake. They were in power previously from twenty ten 179 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 5: to twenty fifteen, but they were voted out due to, 180 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 5: among other things corruption, and since then the party has 181 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 5: further evolved into a sort of personality cult centered around 182 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: came proser prosessor, and her politics have also evolved in 183 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 5: that time to align further and further toward the United 184 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 5: States position. She's become something of a Trump Stan you know, 185 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 5: she was kind of touring his line on a lot 186 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 5: of issues. She supported Guido Juan Guido as the president 187 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 5: of Venezuela and actually went so far while she was 188 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 5: a oposition leader to call on the United States to 189 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 5: sanction Trinan Tobago after the Vice President of Venezuela had 190 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 5: made a visit to the country to meet with the 191 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 5: then Prime Minister Keith Rowley. So she has made her 192 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 5: pro Washington stands clear for a very long time. And 193 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 5: as she's come into power, she has divuted our alignment 194 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 5: with our regional bloc, the Caribbean Community cara COM and 195 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 5: their call for the Caribbean to remain a zone of peace, 196 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 5: and emphasized her continued endorsement for the US military's deployment 197 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 5: outside of Venezuela's territorial waters. But still very much belligerent 198 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 5: in her approach to this issue. You know, we have 199 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 5: gone from a state that was respected as a non 200 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:38,239 Speaker 5: aligned entity that was able to approach various diplomatic partners 201 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 5: from the US to China to the eute in Yale 202 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 5: to Venezuela as well. And we've gone from that sort 203 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 5: of diplomatic approach to a very clear pro West stance 204 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 5: that has really alienated US from the rest of the 205 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 5: region and really placed US almost in the position of 206 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 5: being alite state for US policy. You know, she's been 207 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 5: inviting the US military if they want to base the 208 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 5: operations Auto Turinaud. She has opened our doors to that. 209 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 5: She has called for the US to kill them all violently, 210 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 5: extraditionally and stated that she is quivoctly aligned with what 211 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 5: the US is doing in the region despite its flagrant 212 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 5: violations of international law. 213 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you said earlier, right that them in this 214 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: instance includes at least two of her own citizens. 215 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 5: And I will say that this sort of zone of 216 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 5: peace designation for the Caribbean, it is something that I 217 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 5: would this is my personal opinion, and consider more of 218 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 5: a hopeful ideal rather than the reality. You know, the 219 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 5: trafficking that takes place in the region does visit a 220 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 5: lot of violence upon people. Is you know, by no 221 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 5: means in reality a zone of peace, even before the 222 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 5: US is in the region. However, though we may not 223 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 5: fit that postcard perfect perception of tropical paradise, it is 224 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 5: still necessary, i think, for US to stand in solidarity 225 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 5: as a region, to speak with one voice when it 226 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 5: comes to these issues, especially as a continued existence depends 227 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 5: on the observation of international law. The respect for the 228 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 5: UN Charter as small islands or safety is really in numbers. 229 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 5: And for the Prime Minister to deviate from that solidarity 230 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 5: in such a blatant way, it's it's really quite sad, 231 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 5: but it shouldn't come as a surprise because there have 232 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 5: been efforts by the US to divide cara Con in 233 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 5: the past. During his first term, Trump had pulled some 234 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 5: cara Con countries into the LIMA Group, which was a 235 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 5: US promoted coalition of right being governments that was pushing 236 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 5: for regime change in Venezuela. And he's not doing the 237 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 5: same thing with trying to get some Caracom governments to 238 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 5: facilitate his actions towards Venezuela. They approached Grenado recently to 239 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 5: try and get Grenada's assistance in basing a satellite there 240 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 5: on the island, and it's really ironic that they would 241 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 5: approach Grenada, which is also quite close to Venezuela, because 242 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 5: Grenado is famously one of the countries that the United 243 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 5: States invaded in October of nineteen eighty three. 244 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I know I say this a lot, 245 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: but if you've listened to the song Washington Bullets by 246 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: the Clash, and then you go to the border, you 247 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: can kind of join up all the people from all 248 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: the countries mentioned there and the outcome of US policy 249 00:15:50,240 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: and what that does to migration over time. We should 250 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: talk about the Venezuelan opposition. I guess, Michael, would you 251 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: give I've done a pretty in depth discussion of Venezuela, 252 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: a place where I have spent a decent amount of time, 253 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: Like I wanted to see that revolution myself when I 254 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: was like nineteen and I was studying political science that 255 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: I wanted to see what this like pink Tide was about. 256 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: And I have reported a lot on Venezuela migrants. People 257 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: who are new to the show, I guess the series 258 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: I did from the Darien Gap would be where I 259 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: would point you for my discussion of Venezuela and Venezuelan people. 260 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: I still speak to people of Venezuela almost every day, 261 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: but I think people could do micro with like a 262 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: like a high level overview of the Venezuelan opposition. I 263 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: guess we can talk about that about prize as well, which, 264 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: despite what Donald Trump is saying, was not awarded to 265 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: him this year. 266 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 267 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: So the big news is that Maria Quida Machado, who 268 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 4: is be leader of the Venezuelan opposition as we as 269 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 4: we know it today, was awarded of the Nobel Prize, 270 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 4: which was a bit of a surprise and from a 271 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 4: very US centric analysis. One idea that has been floated 272 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 4: is that the Nobel Committee didn't want to award Trump 273 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,239 Speaker 4: the prize, but thought that maybe awarding it to an 274 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 4: ally of Trump, would we be away to modify Trump 275 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 4: also possibly to encourage him to take a more peaceful 276 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 4: approach at a time that the US is threatening armed 277 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 4: intervention in some way in Venezuela, whether that is a 278 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: counter arcotects operation or more likely a regime change operation 279 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 4: of some kind, even though it's very unclear how they 280 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 4: would get to regime change from blowing up votes, even 281 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: blowing up people. 282 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 2: Maybe we should pause and talk about regime change, actually 283 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: because I like it's such a problematic idea, right, we 284 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: have attempted regime changes. My career for the last several 285 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: years has been reporting on the United States failed attempts 286 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: to facilitate regime james all over the world, right, Like, 287 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 2: it's not something we're very good at. I don't think 288 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: that the United States is going to invade maybe do 289 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: you think differently? But I think we probably agree that 290 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: the United States is sound likely to do it, like 291 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: an Iraq style invasion of Venezuela. Can you explain the couple, 292 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: like why I suppose just just for people who you know, 293 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: think that that's what's happening in the Caribbean at the 294 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: moment with this concentration of forces. 295 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 4: Well, it's unlikely to happen because well, it's a very 296 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 4: large country and it would take a lot more troops 297 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: than what are currently deployed, which is approaching ten thousand now. 298 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 4: But that's actually that includes all sorts of logistical support. 299 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 4: The actual fighting force, the Marine Expeditionary Unit is actually 300 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 4: much smaller. I've lived in Panama as a kid, and 301 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 4: I was not old enough to be there for the 302 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 4: invasion but I live there some years after that. That's 303 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 4: probably the closest analog to this, at least the way 304 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 4: that the Drum administration is promoting this, which is to say, 305 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 4: a regime change operation that is disguised as a counter 306 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 4: narcotics operation. Famously, nor Diega, it was not a war. 307 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 4: It was an arrest of a foreign leader who was 308 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 4: indeed involved in drug trafficking. And we knew that because 309 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 4: he was literally a CIA asset whose drug trafficking was 310 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 4: being protected as long as he was allied with the 311 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 4: US against Cuban backed rebel groups in Central America. But 312 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 4: at some point later he became too much of embarrassment 313 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 4: for the US. Was genuinely a brutal guy, pulled off 314 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 4: the torture, murder of who was spotifort, all. 315 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 3: Sorts of nasty things. 316 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: But the big difference is at that time and when 317 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 4: I lived there, the US had multiple military basis in Panama. 318 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 4: Panama was the headquarters of the US Southern Command, the 319 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 4: Western Hemisphere, headquarters of the Pentagon. We had thirteen thousand 320 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 4: troops already there ready to go. I think they doubled 321 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 4: that for the invasion, which was officially termed Operation just 322 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 4: cause usually called Operation Bluespone, but they had to come 323 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 4: with the sex. 324 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: Of your name. 325 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: And of course Panama is a tiny country and Venezuela 326 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 4: is twenty times larger than Panama. 327 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fuss, so it's very odd. 328 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 4: It's obviously they have deployed many more troops and a 329 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 4: much larger fleet than its necessary for a counter narcotics operation. Incidentally, 330 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 4: it's the US Coast Guard that carries out counter narcotics 331 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 4: interdictions and does it very effectively, and incidentally does it 332 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 4: with the cooperation of other countries which coordinate intelligence or 333 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 4: just simply surveillance of suspicious ships or boats or planes 334 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 4: and tip off the US Coast Guard. Even the Cuban 335 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 4: government does that. In fact, it's the Coast Guard that 336 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 4: is the US agency that has the best relationships with Cuba. 337 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 4: It's oftentimes diplomacy kind of starts with the Coast Guard's 338 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 4: ties with Cuba. But anyway, that aside, it doesn't make 339 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: sense from a counter narcotics standpoint, because look, if you 340 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 4: actually wanted to break up a cartel, what do you do. 341 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 4: I mean, if you are a prosecutor investigator, right, you 342 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 4: capture the smugglers, you seize the cargo, the contraband, which 343 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: is evidence. Then you try to flip them up for 344 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 4: immunity for whoever your real targets are. Maybe your target 345 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 4: is Maduro or someone else in the regime. But you 346 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 4: can't do that when you kill everyone on the boat. 347 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: Ye, right. And I think the fact that in I 348 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 3: think the. 349 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 4: Latest boat strike, they didn't manage to kill everyone, and 350 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 4: a couple of them got away, and then the US, 351 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 4: rather than charge them with a crime, they just turned 352 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 4: them back around. And you would think that if the 353 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 4: US is so certain that the people on those boats 354 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 4: are drug trafficking terrorists that they want to kill them, 355 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 4: then you'd think they would have enough evidence to charge 356 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 4: them to prosecute them of them. Apparently not. So this 357 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 4: is all to say the idea that this is a 358 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 4: counternarcotics operation doesn't hold up. 359 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 3: Clearly. 360 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 4: It is meant to be more of a regime change operation. 361 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 4: But again I don't see how the one leads to 362 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 4: the other. I believe that Trump thinks that if he 363 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 4: just saber rattles a little bit and possibly tries some 364 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 4: decapitation strikes the way that the US did on Soleimani 365 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: and Iran, that's somehow the regime is going to collapse, 366 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 4: and that does not make any sense. Maduro has surrounded 367 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 4: himself with security, a lot of it, including Recuban advisors. 368 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 4: He keeps his whereabouts very secret. Even if somehow they 369 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: were to drone strike him, it's not as if the 370 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 4: regime as a whole would fall because it is an 371 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: extremely militarized regime that is upheld by the armed forces 372 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 4: who are not going to break with him because they 373 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 4: have a hand in every lucrative business both legal and illegal, 374 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. They're not going to be paid off or 375 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 4: not be swayed by a bounty that is currently what 376 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 4: something like fifty million dollars. I mean, there are people 377 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 4: around Madula that have made upwards of a billion dollars 378 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 4: in oil rents. So it's not like you could pay 379 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: off people. 380 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 3: To be head either. 381 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not Nor is it like a cult 382 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 2: of personality situation, like certainly not. Now Java's had something 383 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 2: of a sort of charismatic leadership role, but Madula is 384 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: not that. So let's talk about the opposition in Venezuela 385 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: in so much as, like I guess, if we go 386 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: back to the election, last year. Right, that's start with 387 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: the election and explain to people what happened there and 388 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: the subsequent sort of avenues that are now open for 389 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: the avenues that opposition is now exploring, if that's okay. 390 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 4: There was an election quote unquote that took place last year. 391 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: It was broken largely by the US. The US under 392 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 4: the my administration was pushing for some kind of negotiations 393 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 4: between the opposition of Venezuelan government. They convinced enough people 394 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 4: in the opposition to stand for elections under what was 395 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 4: called the Barbados Agreement in twenty twenty three. And this 396 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 4: was meant to be in exchange of partial lifting the 397 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 4: sectoral sanctions that have been in place on Venezuela for 398 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: a long time, in which the Trump administration, the first 399 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 4: Trump administration, really tightened in exchange for the Vaduro government 400 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 4: agreeing to stand for elections. And those elections happened last year. 401 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 4: It was pretty clear from pre electoral surveys and from 402 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 4: exit polls and from the vote returns that were coming 403 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 4: in at the time, that the opposite you, Canada, was 404 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: going to win by an enormous march about a thirty 405 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 4: five point margin. The candidate was officially at Mundo Gonzales, 406 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 4: but he was candidates mostly because Murray Cornea Matado, the 407 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 4: now Nobel Prize laureate, was barred from running, so she 408 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 4: for blessing to Gonzales to be basically her proxy, and 409 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 4: people were more or less voting for both of them, 410 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 4: so to speak, but both he and her are much 411 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 4: more popular. Maduro, who by all accounts as an extremely 412 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 4: unpopular leader, especially in contrast to as you said, Ugu Chavas, who, 413 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 4: for all his faults, was a genuinely charismatic yeah leader, 414 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 4: and you know, he did stand for elections and win them, 415 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 4: you know, pretty convincingly. Incidentally, oil the price of oil 416 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 4: was about one hundred dollars a barrel when he was president, 417 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 4: and he was able to spend a lot on social programs. 418 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 4: But that aside, Yeah, Helpsudo is pretty unpopular. With this point, 419 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 4: he is pretty widely seen as both a tyrant and 420 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 4: also quite incompetent at managing basic state services. So he 421 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 4: was going to lose unless he stole the election, which 422 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 4: he did. The CNE the Best One Election board announced 423 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 4: that he had won with just fifty one percent of 424 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 4: the vote, which is I have to say, I give 425 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 4: him credit for being subtle. I expected them to announce that. 426 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: He won with like ninety nine percent of the vote, yeah, 427 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: and a sad margin. 428 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 429 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, No one believed it. And I have to say 430 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 4: one of my critiques of the Bido administration is that 431 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 4: I think the whole thing was rather naive. I think 432 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 4: they character that that somehow Maduro would let himself be 433 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 4: voted out of office. 434 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 3: Maduro, is he. 435 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 4: Talked about under a bounty, has a bounty on his head. 436 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: Many people in the US politics, in the US Republican 437 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 4: in particular, have promised that they're going to send him 438 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 4: to jail. So why would someone in that position, you know, 439 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 4: give up power. I think, you know, he saw what 440 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 4: happened to Kadafi and he's, you know, he doesn't want 441 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 4: to be jailed or killed. And at the same time, 442 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 4: the stick part of the Karen and Stick mechanism was 443 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 4: that they would simply go back to the sanctions that 444 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 4: existed before, which was called a snapback. And these are 445 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 4: sanctions that the Venezuelan government has weathered for for many, 446 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 4: many years, so it's not really that much of a disincentive. 447 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 4: So anyway, everyone basically admits at this point that he 448 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 4: stole the election, but what are you going to do 449 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 4: about it? The opposition, for its part, has taken different 450 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 4: approaches to how to confront him and is famously very divided. 451 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 4: The Venezuelan opposition has never really been on the same page. 452 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 4: They've never really had an uncontested leader. Mariequrna much is 453 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 4: about the closest they have had. But she herself really 454 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 4: represents more one wing of the opposition, the more you 455 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 4: might say, hard line wing. For a long time there 456 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 4: was a hard line wing personified by Lopez, and there 457 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 4: was a more I don't know if you call it 458 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 4: a soft line or liberal or just more willing to 459 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 4: talk to the regime wing led by Capriles who ran 460 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 4: against at the in the first election. And it's even 461 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 4: within those factions there are there competing personality. It's a 462 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 4: lot of it really is more personal than ideological. But 463 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 4: Maricorne Machallo, she is on the right politically. She you know, 464 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 4: styles herself after Margaret Thatcher. She is also, i will 465 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 4: give a credit for this, a very good organizer. She 466 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 4: is famously kind of gone into communities that have historically 467 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 4: voted with the Chavista left, and convinced many people to 468 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 4: leave that coalition. And also to her credit, you know, 469 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 4: I would say she is a very brave person. She 470 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 4: has remained into the country at a time that many 471 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 4: most opposition leaders, including Amodo Gonzalez, have plied the country, 472 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 4: and she's been hiding. She knows that the regime would arrest, 473 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 4: if not kill her at its soonest opportunity. Yet she 474 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 4: still shows up unannounced at at events, at rallies and 475 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 4: and makes speeches. So she has achieved this kind of 476 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 4: mythic figure and this is something that obviously is only 477 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 4: going to grow with the Nobel prize. So then the 478 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 4: question is what will this Nobel do. I think that 479 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 4: one calculation is that it will simply keep her alive. 480 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 4: You know, it'll be much harder for the Majoria government 481 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: to kill her, if you know, if they would be 482 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 4: killing a Nobel laureate, So that may buy her a 483 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 4: little bit more time. 484 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: Try to best them on the first one to kill 485 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: a Nobel laureate. 486 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 4: I guess, right, right, yeah, But you know, will it 487 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: bring peace? 488 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: I'm not so sure. 489 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 4: Because Marie Corny Machaalo has also been very closely allied 490 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 4: and supportive of the Trunk administration and her side of 491 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 4: the opposition has been encouraging the military sikes backing sanctions, 492 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 4: even though the sanctions both have done nothing to dislodge 493 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 4: Maduro and also contribute to a great deal of suffering 494 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 4: for the Venezuelan people. 495 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: And I have to. 496 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 4: Say, look, I'm not Venezuela. I have no right to 497 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: give it the Venezuelan opposition advice. I would say that 498 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 4: if they have tried multiple elections, you know, at least 499 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 4: two of which have been stolen. If they have tried, 500 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 4: you know, I say more democratic means, and nothing has happened. 501 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 4: I can understand why many people would think that a 502 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 4: more radical approach is the only option left on the table. However, 503 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 4: that approach hasn't done anything either. You know, sanctions have 504 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 4: not to dislodge Maduro. Blowing up boats of possible drug traffickers, 505 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 4: maybe just fishermen has not done anything. I think that 506 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 4: nothing appears likely to lead to regime change. But I 507 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 4: can understand the desperation of people living under what is 508 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 4: broadly acknowledged to be an extremely repressive regime. 509 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just a grinding poverty of everyday life in Venezuela. 510 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: There is so like, I've heard so many stories from 511 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: so many people of such a difficult existence there can 512 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: I can understand people's desperation, Andrew, you know, I've spoken 513 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: about like the gulf between the government of Trnidad and 514 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: Tobago and the people of Trinidad and Tobago right now, 515 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: and obviously the same is true in Venezuela, right Like, 516 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: It's not the opposition figures living in Spain who suffer 517 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: when we have these sanctions, right it's not opposition candidates 518 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: who get blown up when they go fishing. It it's 519 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: regular working class and it's whalen people. So do you 520 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: want to talk about like, I'm not even sure what 521 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: we can do by way of solidarity with these are 522 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: of these nations, but maybe you have some thoughts on that. 523 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 5: I'm honestly at something of a loss to myself, speaking 524 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 5: from a small island, I think the US's superpower status 525 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 5: is almost like into an eltriche horror. It feels like 526 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 5: it's unfathomable how you could even go about approaching that. 527 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 5: Other times, you don't try to remind myself that people 528 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 5: have fought and won, you know, people have resisted and won. 529 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 5: You know, currently there isn't that much going on. There 530 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 5: are murmurs. They are momurs of fair of disdain or disagreement, 531 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 5: of distrust. In terms of grassroots effort, there's a lot 532 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 5: still to be done. The leader of the move On 533 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 5: for Social Justice, which is a small progressive political party 534 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 5: in Tranto Bago, it's a guy named David Abdullah, and 535 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 5: he has been part of this assembly of Caribbean people 536 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 5: who have been signing and issuing a declaration reasserting our 537 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 5: desire for peace, and that has been signed by various 538 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 5: progressive organizations, social movements and figures across the Caribbean. And 539 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 5: there was also an effort last week Thursday, that's October sixteenth, 540 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 5: to organize a region wide day of action in defense 541 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 5: of the Caribbean, and so different actions were taking place 542 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 5: all over in fifteen countries. We had press conferences, we 543 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 5: had state months, and we had pickets that sit in 544 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 5: US embassy's and complicate demonstrations. It was kind of in 545 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 5: the middle of the day on a Thursday, so there 546 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 5: wasn't that big of it out from Barraso when I 547 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 5: had gone, but it shows that there is and from 548 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 5: the at least anecdotal experience. There is a desire to 549 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 5: keep the US out of this situation, you know, despite 550 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 5: the issues of the Venezuelan government, despite the issues of 551 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 5: our own governments. We don't want intervention, you know, And 552 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 5: right now, all we can really levy is our voices, 553 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 5: you know, our words, and all we can really do. 554 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 5: I think, besides protest, what is going on is prepare 555 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 5: for the worst, to ensure that we have, you know, 556 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 5: sit and support systems in place in case, you know, 557 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 5: push comes to show. 558 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty bleak. 559 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: Michael. 560 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: Do you have anything to add on how people can 561 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: can be in solidarity with the people of Venezuela currently. 562 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 4: Well, I've been calling for people broadly throughout the world 563 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 4: to have solidarity more with people than with states, and 564 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 4: certainly with Venezuelan people as opposed to the Venezuelan state. 565 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 4: I wrote something for the Center or International Policy about this, 566 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 4: and listen, you know, it's not my place to police 567 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 4: the left, so to speak. But you know, as someone 568 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 4: speaking personally who comes from the labor movement, you know, 569 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 4: comes from the Bernie allied left so to speak, you know, 570 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 4: I do think it's been a little bit uncomfortable to 571 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 4: observe how certain elements of the global left have have 572 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 4: stood up for the Madu regime or the very least 573 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 4: been The criticism of it has been taboo, and I 574 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 4: think a lot of that is a legacy of Tapas 575 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 4: Chapas having this strong personal charisma, but also that he 576 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 4: was willing to confront the United States the Bush administration 577 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 4: at a time of the Iraq War, you know, especially 578 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 4: low point in the US's global reputation. Also Venezuela's oil 579 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 4: rants at the time, which we're financing a lot of 580 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 4: not just social programs Venezuela, but a lot of financial 581 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 4: largesse to Allied states and movements around around the region. 582 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 4: So a lot of left parties reflexively defended Maduro even 583 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 4: as his repression and mismanagement just ramped up. I will 584 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 4: say that's fading. You know, we were seeing this within 585 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 4: Latin America. First of all, there's kind of a generational divide, 586 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 4: and some of the older generational Latin American Left, like 587 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 4: Lula or like Petro, have not been overwhelmingly anti Maduru, 588 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 4: but have expressed skepticism about the electoral results. But then 589 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 4: there's a younger generation such as Borg and Chile at 590 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 4: Chile and Adebolo and Guatemala who have been openly very 591 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 4: critical Abouduro and want to just not let him or 592 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 4: his camp, so to speak, define what it means to 593 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 4: be on the left. And really the only countries that 594 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 4: have unquestionably backed him at this point are Bolivia and Cuba, 595 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 4: but also outside of the region, Russia, Iran, China. 596 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 3: So I think that. 597 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 4: We should ask ourselves, like, who do we think is 598 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 4: a more credible arbiter of progressive values? Is it or 599 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 4: its in Chile or is it putin you know, even 600 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 4: not even the commonist part of Venezuela and no longer. 601 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's one of my favorite facts, you know, like. 602 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 4: He has he has had their their militants killed, you know, 603 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 4: allegedly as well. So it's just it's not helpful to 604 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 4: view the world for in this campus lens. 605 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 3: You know. 606 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 4: I think that if people, whether they identify as on 607 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 4: the left or or whatever, want to show solidarity, I 608 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 4: think it should be with the Venezuelan people, which means 609 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 4: listening to voices within civil society in Venezuela. There are 610 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 4: a lot of there are a lot of labor unions, 611 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 4: there are a lot of human rights advocates that are 612 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 4: not opposition parties, that are not running for office. They're 613 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 4: not necessarily calling for regime change, made them very critical 614 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 4: of sanctions, but they have tried to push for better changes, 615 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 4: you know, quality of life, you know, reforms that might 616 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 4: lead to less repression, open up more space for civil society, 617 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 4: and you know, those things are necessary when people are 618 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 4: really living day by day, you know. And I think 619 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 4: that if people on the left want to play the 620 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 4: long game and understand care about the prospects of the future, 621 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 4: they need to understand that the Maduro regime is the 622 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 4: worst model. 623 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 3: For them to be associated with, you know. 624 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 4: And it's already been taking place with campaigns, selectoral campaigns 625 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 4: around Latin America where Cannon's on the right run against 626 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 4: the boogeyman of you know, Chabbismo, of like of a 627 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 4: Maduro model. And it makes sense. And if a lot 628 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,439 Speaker 4: of people on the left are very skeptical of Maria 629 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 4: Kurgna Machado like I have skin about for policy platforms 630 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 4: of privatization and and other neoliberal ideas, they also shouldn't 631 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 4: be surprised if there's been a decade of people being 632 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 4: told that this model of corruption, authoritarianism, state terror, criminal insecurity. 633 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 4: That's what socialism is. Then people are gonna believe that, 634 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 4: and then they're going to then they're vote against whatever 635 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 4: that is. And this model has provoked the greatest refugee crisis, 636 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 4: certainly in the region. Eight million people. They're all carrying 637 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 4: with them stories about why they left right. And so 638 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 4: if there ever were to be democratic elections in Venezuela, 639 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 4: it's pretty clear the country would turn to the right. 640 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 4: And I don't think we should be surprised by that, 641 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 4: you know, And I think we should also recognize that 642 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 4: many of the things that Maludor embodies, these strong men politics, 643 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 4: are things that are embodied by other strong men, not 644 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 4: just on the left too. 645 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: You know. 646 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 4: I would just point out that, least accordances some Trump 647 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 4: has privately expressed a lot of admiration for Madudo. I 648 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 4: read John Bolton's book, and you know, the former National 649 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 4: Security advisor. You know, maybe he has a lot of 650 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 4: reasons to lie, but you know, he did say that 651 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 4: Trump privately expressed a lot of advertatary for Madodor being, 652 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 4: in his words, too smart and too tough to be overthrown. 653 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 4: You know, was really happy to see him surrounded by 654 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 4: what he called all these good looking generals. He disparaged 655 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 4: one Guido, calling him the Beto O'Rourke of Venezuela, means 656 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,479 Speaker 4: you know, so, I think that there is there's something 657 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 4: he said about strong men recognizing strong men, and a 658 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 4: lot of these authoritarian lessons are not limited to one 659 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 4: side of the ideological spectrum. 660 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I find that tendency on the American left 661 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: floor and a sort of Internet left to be massively frustrating. Like, 662 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 2: as someone who went there to see the revolution, who 663 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: like went there to understand it, and who spent masses 664 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: of time with Venezuelan people in the gap at the 665 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: border in Venezuela, I'm very fond of Venezuelan people, and 666 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, our sort of directory should be with them, 667 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: not with some strong man's state. We saw this in 668 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 2: Syria as well, right, Like, it is heartbreaking, genuinely heartbreaking 669 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 2: to explain to people how someone who identifies as a 670 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 2: leftist is also denying that their children were gased by 671 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 2: chemical weapons in Syria. Right, This campus graze tendency and 672 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: the American less specifically is incredibly toxic, and anybody who 673 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: seriously considers themselves to be a lestist. It is massively 674 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 2: undermining any credibility they have when they associate themselves with 675 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 2: regimes which willingly murder their own people. I would like 676 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 2: to see people stop doing that. Perhaps both of you 677 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: could finish up by suggesting US coverage of this has 678 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: not been great, right like, it tends to focus on 679 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 2: the United States very much, and Venezuela kind of appears 680 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 2: as a and lithic entity. Turning down Tobago rarely gets 681 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 2: any coverage in the US media. I did see I 682 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 2: think Reuter's or AP had done a piece about how 683 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 2: fishermen were relucted to go out. I would like to 684 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: see more of that kind of reporting. Perhaps both of 685 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: you could suggest a couple of sources where people could 686 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 2: read about this. 687 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 5: Sure, at least on my end, I suggest looking into 688 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 5: all local news. Now, it's not the best source in 689 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 5: terms of actual interrogation of the issues and the ways 690 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 5: in which some of the narratives just kind of get 691 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 5: repeated uncritically, but you do get at least the occasional interview, 692 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 5: occasional quote from a non US state apartment source. I 693 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 5: would also suggest on Instagram there are a couple of 694 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 5: pages that bring a more radical progressive voice from the Caribbean. 695 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 5: There's a page called Vintage Caribbean and there's another page 696 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 5: called Trinbago for Palestine. Both of those have been doing 697 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 5: a lot of coverage on this particular incident lately, so 698 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 5: you can look through those as well if you want 699 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 5: to get us sort of a grassroots steak on the situation. 700 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't really have any go to sources on this. 701 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 4: I would say that it's enough of an international incident 702 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 4: that all the major news sources are covering it. So 703 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 4: you can read really any news source in Latin America 704 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 4: if you speak Spanish Portuguese and see how that reporting 705 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 4: is different. Also, incidentally, and by use in Spain, you 706 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 4: know Coono's on the side, they do pretty good reporting. Yeah, 707 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 4: and they've haven't been doing pretty good reporting. And there's 708 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 4: lots of blogs as well, and you know, newsletters that 709 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 4: you can check out. I will say just made this 710 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 4: I'm biased because I focus a lot on crime. The 711 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 4: site Insight Crime is pretty good in terms of looking 712 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 4: into specific criminal groups like Bindeagua and calling a question 713 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 4: if you know, if this really is a you know, 714 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 4: it's something that is controlled by the puppet master from 715 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 4: you afore as you know, like Lido and some of 716 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,439 Speaker 4: these some of these narratives that are justifying this, I'd 717 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 4: also just as a recommendation, I would say, you know, 718 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 4: maybe it should be a little bit skeptical too about 719 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 4: the timing and the purposes of these things. I did 720 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 4: point out in a piece that I wrote for the 721 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 4: Center Financial Policy. Then the first boat strike happened on 722 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 4: the same day to the House Judiciary Committee was releasing 723 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 4: a redacted number of files related to the Jeffrey Epstein case. 724 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 4: You know, and I think that there are many reasons 725 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:31,399 Speaker 4: why this administration would like to use this confrontation as 726 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 4: a conmane distraction from from other things that they would 727 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 4: rather not be talking about. 728 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Leak, I think it's probably a reasonable conclusion given 729 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 2: where we're at. Where can people find both of you 730 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 2: on if they want to follow you online on social 731 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: media or find more of your writing. We'll start with you, 732 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: Andrew Shure. 733 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 5: Well, you can find me on my YouTube channel YouTube 734 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 5: dot com, slash Andrew's own, or you could just call 735 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 5: my website for all my other links, Andrew Siege dot org. 736 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 4: You, Michael, I do have a website. You can look 737 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 4: up my name and that should come up. I haven't 738 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 4: updated it recently, I probably should. I'm also on Twitter 739 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 4: x blue Sky as my name M. 740 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 3: P A A R L B B r G, so 741 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 3: you can look me up there. 742 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 4: Great. 743 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, thank you. 744 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 745 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 746 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 747 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 748 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly 749 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.