1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan. In this is episode number four 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty, and today I'm joined by outdoor writer 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: and bow hunter Tony Hansen to discuss his book and 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: Antler Geeks Manifesto, The Foundational Principles of a d I 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: Y Deer Hunter. All Right, welcome to the Wired to 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Leg and today, 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: as I just mentioned, I've got Tony Hanson here with 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: me on the show. Now, Tony someone who a lot 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: of you are probably familiar with. He is a fellow 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Michigan bow hunter. He has been in the white tail 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: hunting outdoor media world for a long time. You've possibly 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: seen his videos, his podcasts, his articles across many different locations, uh, 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: maybe most prominently in the pages of Outdoor Life magazine. Uh. 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: He's worked with white tailed properties. He's done a lot. 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: And what I've always appreciated about Tony is that he 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: gets it done the hard way. He hunts in heavily 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: pressured places, all on his own, doing his own thing 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: in places like Michigan by permission or most of the 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: time a lot of the time on public land across 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: the country too. And what he's done in this book 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: is he has taken decades worth of experience and he 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: has distilled all of these experiences, all this trial and 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: error down into a simple system. This book, in Antler 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: Geeks Manifesto, is his system for killing mature bucks in 28 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, normal everyday conditions that any one of us 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: could do without a lot of money, without a lot 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: of property, you know, doing it by permission, doing it 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: on public land, uh and doing it yourself and tone. 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: And he has the most unique thing about this is 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: that he has shown exactly what he does and it's 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: not overcomplicated. There's a few core principles that he follows 35 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: all the time. And if he follows these core principles 36 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: all the time and follows a couple of simple steps, 37 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: he gets the job done. And it's a breath of 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: fresh air in the white tail hunting world today that 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: is so complicated and and honestly, I say that as 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: a guilty party, like I realize that I'm someone who 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: geeks out on all the details. We talked to ten 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: million different people and get all these different ideas and 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: that's a lot of fun. I enjoy it, but it 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: can also sometimes make things overcomplicated. And Tony has stripped 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: all the bs off, He's stripped all the complicated things 46 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: and given us these simple steps to success. This is 47 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: what works for him, and he's got opinions and perspectives 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: in here that not everyone's gonna agree with. That's okay, 49 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: but this is him, this is who he is, this 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: is what works for him, and it's pretty cool and 51 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: it's something that I think we can all learn from. 52 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: And so today what I want to do is walk 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: through this book with him, to talk through what these 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: foundational principles are, how he came to them, and how 55 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 1: he's been able to develop a system that makes deer 56 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: hunting more fun and of course makes him more successful. 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: So I think you're gonna enjoy this one. Tony has 58 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: got a lot to share, and uh, I'm excited. I'm 59 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: excited to have this conversation. So with no further ado, 60 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: let's get right into it. Let's talk with Tony Hanson. 61 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: All right with me now on the line, is Tony 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: Handsome Tony, welcome back to the show. Hey, it's good 63 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: to be here. Yeah, I appreciate you making the time, 64 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: and I'm excited about this one. We we haven't talked 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: on the podcast for a number of years now. I 66 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: think when I got you on the show last I 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: was sitting in my truck recording it in Montana while 68 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: I was in between I think I just had wrapped 69 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: up in Montana whitetail hunt and I was recording my truck. 70 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: And now today I'm recording my truck in Idaho. So 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: this seems to be a theme. But uh, but I 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: don't have a filled tag in a buck in the 73 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: back of the truck on this one, so I think, Uh, 74 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: I think it will still be a good chat. And 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: what got me wanting to have this chat, Tony, was 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: your book that you published last year and n Antler 77 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: Geeks Manifesto. Why did you write this book? Why was 78 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: that something you wanted to do now? Because you've done 79 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the outdoor and deer hunting world. 80 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: Why was now the time to write this? I guess 81 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: there was a couple of reasons. Um. Honestly, the primary 82 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: reason was just too to say that I had done it. Um, 83 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: I had talked so long. I don't even know a 84 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: number of years. Probably three or four years ago is 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: when I had the outline for this and had messed 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: around with it. And at the time, you know, I 87 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: was fairly active in the outdoor media world still, and 88 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: I thought that it would be a lot easier to 89 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: get it done that way, but you know, it never happened. 90 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: So I guess the primary reason I did it was 91 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: just to show myself that I could. It was also 92 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: I hadn't um you know, in the last I guess 93 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: five years or so, I'm definitely taken a step back 94 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: from the outdoor media world, and it was just kind 95 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: of a way to sort of dabble back into it, 96 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: but on my own terms, in my own way. And 97 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: that's really why it's all self published and self edited. 98 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: So you know, I definitely want people to understand if 99 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: they do read it, they're probably gonna find a typo 100 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: or something. Um nobody else has had a finger in 101 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: any of it except me, and that's not the best 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: way to get you know, absolutely perfect copy and everything, 103 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: so you might find a typo. And the cool thing 104 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: about UM self publishing, if you find it, you can 105 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: tell me and I can get it changed on future 106 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: orders that you know, I can change the the system 107 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: on Amazon real quick. So that was a primary reason. 108 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: I guess. The second reason was, um more for myself 109 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: to kind of just get my thoughts in order of 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: how all of these years that I've done this sort 111 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: of stuff in terms of do it yourself hunting, I 112 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: feel like I have a system now a little bit, 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: and I wanted to just organize it. And I thought, well, 114 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: if I can organize it in a book and help 115 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: some other people, that's a good way to do it. 116 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: So those are those are, you know, the two main 117 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: reasons that I decided to do it. And of course 118 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: Covid played a role. Um, I had the time, all 119 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: of a sudden, all my Turkey season stuff was pretty 120 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: much shot. Um you could. I'm not super social, so 121 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't like I was missing out on the bar 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: scene and everything, but there was no ball games to 123 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: go to my all my daughters, UM, musicals and things. 124 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: She's super big into theater, you know. For the first 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: time in my life, my adult life, I guess I 126 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: didn't have things to do five or six nights a week, 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: so I just started writing. What was that process like? 128 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: Was it Was it what you expected? Was it what 129 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: you wanted? It was actually a lot easier because I 130 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: always thought I had some Jeff Sturgis books. Um. I 131 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: like Jeff. I think it's a good dude, and I 132 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: like his books, and they're about the right length of 133 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: what I wanted. I had no idea how many words 134 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: go into a chapter. I didn't know, and I thought, man, 135 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm gonna be able to fill 136 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: up a book. But and it's not like a giant book. 137 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: It's not a novel, and I didn't want it to be. 138 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: I wanted it to be about that the size that 139 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: it turned out, So it was actually a lot easier 140 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: than I thought. UM came together really fast. I probably 141 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: wrote it in a week and a half two weeks. UM. 142 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: I had some of the chapters sort of started, but 143 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't a big deal. And then I just went 144 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: through and learned how you did the layout, and I 145 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: just used the Amazon service and um Kindle publishing thing. 146 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: So it was fun. It wasn't anything unexpected. Really. UM. 147 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: I knew that self editing was going to be tough, 148 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: so I probably read it more than any other drafts 149 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: I would like. For magazine articles and stuff. I read 150 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: it through a couple of times and I hand them 151 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: off to people who are really good at it editing. 152 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: With this, I probably had to read it a little 153 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: bit more, and I'm sure I still miss stuff, but um, 154 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: and I still do. I mean, I was reading it 155 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: over last night to look through some things and I 156 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: found one type of so I already changed it today. 157 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: But it wasn't a surprise. It kind of went the 158 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: way I wanted it to go. Um. But I also realized, 159 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: after rereading it a couple of times, there's a bunch 160 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: more stuff that wanted to include that maybe I'll do 161 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: a follow up on sometime. Yeah, it's it's it's funny rereading, 162 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: at least for me, rereading anything I've written is always 163 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: a little bit painful. If it's if some time has passed, 164 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: I always look at it again, like, God, jeez, I 165 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: wish i'd included this. I wish i'd done that. Uh. 166 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: So it's nice in your case with this setup that 167 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: you can go in there and make updates future printings 168 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: and stuff. That's uh, that's a really nice benefit of 169 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: the way you did it with a self publishing Yeah, exactly. 170 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: And I always kind of joke around, whoever's got like 171 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: the first three copies with a hundred typos in it? 172 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: You know it'll be like the Tom Kelly books books 173 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna be paying on eBay five. So, so what 174 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 1: about what about for people reading this? So for you, you 175 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: you want to do it because it was going to 176 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: force you to kind of synthesize your system and put 177 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: it on paper and organize it. But what about for 178 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: the people that you wrote it for to read it? 179 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: What's your pitch to them? Like, what does someone get 180 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: when they pick up this book? Why should someone read 181 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: this book? And not so and So's other deer hunting 182 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: god to success. So, if if you want to kill 183 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: big deer, older deer um more than one time in 184 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: your life, you have to understand that whatever it was 185 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: that you did, if you can't duplicate it, the bottom 186 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: line is you're never going to do it again. So, 187 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: if somebody shot a hundred and fifty hundred sixty deer 188 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: and they're like, and I want to make this a 189 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: regular thing, it won't be unless you have some sort 190 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of formula or plan or system. And so what I 191 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: tried to do is just literally tell people this is 192 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: what I do. And I know with absolute certainty that 193 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: if you do it in the right places and you 194 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: can shoot reasonably well at twenty five yards, you'll kill 195 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: a big buck, and you'll kill more than one. I 196 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: have no doubt that it will happen, because if I 197 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: can do that, which I do, this is how. And 198 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: I really wanted to just show people that UM doesn't 199 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: take a bunch of money. It does really take some 200 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: and it takes time. But you don't have to be 201 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: anything special. I'm certainly not, and I fully expect in 202 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: the coming fall. I mean, I'm gonna shoot at least 203 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: one dear that's four years old or older, and maybe 204 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: two or three. And the only way you do that 205 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: is you have to be able to repeat what it 206 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: was you did to make it possible. UM. You can 207 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: get lucky once, everybody does, but you can't get lucky twice, 208 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: usually not with older deer. What I like about this book, 209 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this more and we get into 210 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: your foundations, your those main principles, but I think the 211 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: secret that the secret. But something that really stands out 212 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: about this book, I guess is that it's a little 213 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: bit counter to popular media in that and even this podcast. 214 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 1: If you listen to this podcast enough people have heard 215 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: seventy two thousand different ways to deer hunt, and so 216 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: many different little details you could do, and so many 217 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: different little things that one guy will say you have 218 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: to do this thing, another guy says you gotta do 219 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: this other thing, and they could be complete opposites, and 220 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: it can get complicated, especially if you're a little bit 221 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: newer and you don't have your own system in place. 222 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: I think it's probably fair to say there's a lot 223 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: of people out there who can get just their head 224 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: spinning with all these different ideas. And something that really 225 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: stood out with what you've put here on paper is 226 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: a really streamlined, clear, relatively uncomplicated system for success. It's 227 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: it's it's you've kind of cut away all the fat 228 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: and all the bullshit and said, hey, here's a few 229 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: simple steps, and if you focus on this stuff, and 230 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: if you execute on it and you have fun, this 231 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: this is a system for success. You don't need to 232 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: worry about the ten other things. You don't need to 233 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: worry about the all the fancy gismos and gadgets. This 234 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: is a proven, simple system that works, and there's there's 235 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: a lot of value in that. I mean, someone could 236 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: say they could write a ten thousand or I don't know, 237 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: thousand page book of encyclopedia of every different idea out there, 238 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: and they could say that's really valuable. But in some 239 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: ways it's almost less valuable because it's so damn confusing. 240 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: So I like that about this and and I think 241 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: the first thing you did, which which I thought was 242 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: a nice way to organize it, really hammer home those 243 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: most important things is you kind of delineated these foundational 244 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: principles that everything else revolves around. And I thought that'd 245 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: be a good place to start diving into your system. 246 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: Can you can you walk me through principle number one 247 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: and and and what it is, why it's so important, um, 248 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: and then we can kind of go from there. Yeah, 249 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: the first one is really the one that matters, and 250 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: that's the pressure is the single most important factor. Um. 251 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: Everything else, all the other principles, all the other stuff 252 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: in the entire book is all hinged on hunting pressure. 253 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: And if you are thinking you're gonna have consistent success 254 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: on older deer, and when I say older, I'm I'm 255 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: thinking four years old and older. In some places, it's 256 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: probably needs to be three year old, or you'll just 257 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: never shoot a deer because it's so rare to see 258 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: one older than three. But you cannot have that if 259 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: there's too much hunting pressure. They simply do not live 260 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: long enough. And I beat my head against that wall 261 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: way too long. And the flip side of of that 262 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: is too Even if there are older deer like you 263 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: know what we have here in Michigan, there's there's getting 264 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: to be some pockets where we can have three year 265 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: olds fairly regularly, some four year olds from five year old. 266 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: But the hunting pressure part of it makes those deer 267 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: so difficult to hunt that you can spend your entire 268 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: season trying to shoot one of them and never even 269 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: see the deer. So everything that happens when I'm deciding 270 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: how to hunt, when to hunt, where to hunt, it's 271 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: all about hunting pressure. And if there is hunting pressure, 272 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: I'm just not I'm not doing it. Um. I don't 273 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: pick places to go if I think there's going to 274 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: be a bunch of people. Um. You know a classic example, 275 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: and I'm sure this will upset some people or get offended. Illinois. 276 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: I will never hunt there. Um, there's it's got a 277 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: great reputation. It's got a you know, a whole book 278 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: full of big deer in the record books. I've been 279 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: there twice. There's so much hunting pressure it's it's non 280 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: functional for me and how I want to hunt. So 281 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: even though the data would indicate a state like that 282 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: would be really good to go to, I I just 283 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: won't go there. So every decision I make, every UM 284 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: thing that I've developed in my quote unquote system, it's 285 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: all based on the hunting pressure because that's the one 286 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: thing that I don't think I can overcome really. Um. 287 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: I can work around it, I can deal with it, 288 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: but I can't solve it. Um. And it makes a 289 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: big once you start figuring out what hunting pressure does 290 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: and how deer respond in the difference when they aren't pressured. UM, 291 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: it's it's like a light bulb goes off. It's not 292 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: it's really not that hard to shoot big deer when 293 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: they're not pressured. In your approach is a little bit 294 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: different than a lot of people on that. I mean, 295 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: most everyone says hunting pressure matters a lot of impacts everything. Um. 296 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: But a lot of people say that recognize that. But 297 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: if you hunt in a place of heavy pressure. A 298 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of folks do a bunch of stuff to try 299 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: to have success in those heavily pressured areas. Right, there's 300 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: all sorts of books about bow hunting and pressured areas, etcetera. Uh, 301 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: your ideas is like, screw screw that spot. I'm gonna 302 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: find where it's not. And so rather than beating my 303 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: head against a wall in the spot where it's so 304 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: pressured and and screwed up, your idea is kind of, 305 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: let's save my time and energy for somewhere where it's 306 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: better spent. So just cross that stuff off the map 307 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: and and move on to something different. So in a 308 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: lot of cases, for you, it sounds like you know, 309 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: from what I've seen over our years and then also 310 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: reading the book, right, a lot of that means you 311 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: travel to other states, but you do still our home 312 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: state of Michigan, which of course gets a lot of pressure. 313 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: It's one of those states we will know it that 314 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: gets hammered. Um, So talk to me about how you 315 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: handle this hunting pressure thing here in Michigan, because in 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: most cases you're saying, right off the map, forget it. 317 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: But what about when you do want to hunt local? 318 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: And we know that almost everything is heavily pressured here. 319 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: How do you how do you think through this principle 320 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 1: in Michigan or if someone lives in Pennsylvania or New 321 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: York and they still want to do some local hunting. Yeah, 322 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: So the first thing I do is I make sure 323 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: I'm not the problem. Um, I'm not going to be 324 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: the one that's putting any of the pressure on. So 325 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't do any preseason scouting really at all. I 326 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: think it doesn't work in pressured situations, and I think 327 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: it's counterproductive in a lot of situations. Trail cameras, the 328 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: cell the cell service trail cameras certainly have changed that 329 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: quite a bit, and I will use those. But I'm 330 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: not even gonna worry about what Buck is where in 331 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: July or August, because if I get there the first 332 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: week of October and there's a couple of trucks parked 333 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: there on the neighbors, that Buck's not going to be 334 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: there anyway, or he's not going to be huntable. He's 335 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: gonna be pretty nocturnal. Um. I really I enjoy John 336 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: Eberhart stuff. I've learned a lot from his books, and 337 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: he talks about hunting pressure and I think what people 338 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: misunderstand is he's if you really read it, what he's saying, 339 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: He's not saying, here's how I deal with the hunting pressure. 340 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: He's saying, here's how I avoid it. I find all 341 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: of this stuff in the You know, I'm still gonna 342 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: hunt in Michigan, it's still super pressured, but I'm not 343 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: gonna hunt the spots that are getting super pressured. He's 344 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: going to find the locations where the deer feels safe, 345 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: and that's kind of what I do. So in Michigan, yeah, 346 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to write off those spots that are 347 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: just getting pounded. But if that's the only property that 348 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: I have access to and I want to hunt, I'm 349 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: still gonna hunt it. But I'm gonna try to hunt 350 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: the place that isn't getting pressured, if that makes any sense. 351 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: And the only way I've figured out to do that 352 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: is I just have to do all of my scouting 353 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: in the season, and I do it based on I'll 354 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: take the first week to ten days of October and 355 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: go around any of the places that I have to hunt, 356 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: including public ground, and I'm just literally doing an inventory. 357 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Is somebody hunting this and if they are, I'm I'm 358 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: I'm done with it. I'm not going to mess with 359 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: it because I can't. I can't control them, which means 360 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: I can't control that pressure, which means I can't I 361 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: can't think for myself because I can't, I don't have 362 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: any There's too many variables to it. So I just 363 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: bump around seven to ten days, the first ten days 364 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: of October, and then I start to figure out, Okay, 365 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: this place isn't getting hunted is hard, or they're hunting 366 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: the south end and not the north end. And that's 367 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: when I start to do my scouting, and I'm gonna 368 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: use the cameras and see if there is a deer 369 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: that I want to hunt in there. It's all about 370 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: making sure wherever I'm gonna be. It's the least amount 371 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: of pressure that I could have gotten. Obviously in other states, 372 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: much easier, much different, you know, because there's not necessarily 373 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: that there's less hunting pressure. There's more space for it 374 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: to be spread around. You know. If you take even 375 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: a state like Ohio where there's lots of hunters and 376 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: you've hunted their mark, um, you get in southern Ohio 377 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: and drive around a little bit and you start to realize, Okay, 378 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty bow hunters here is a whole 379 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: lot different than bow hunters in southern Michigan because there's 380 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: so much more available ground and escape. You know, they 381 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: could really get away. Yeah, definitely, definitely different. I want 382 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: to talk more about your scouting, both your your off 383 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: season scouting and why you don't do it so much 384 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: and all that. But before we get to that, I 385 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: think we've got to talk about principal number two. Because 386 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: principal number two is all about choosing those spots that 387 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: are worth scouting, that are worth spending time on, uh 388 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. And you've got again 389 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of a different idea around this that 390 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: that makes sense, but it is a little different. Can 391 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: you walk me through foundational principle number two and how 392 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: you got to this because he had some pain points 393 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: that kind of led to this one for you. Yeah. 394 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: So you your earlier question about you know, what was 395 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: there difficulty in the book, et cetera. This was by 396 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: far the hardest part of it too write because it's 397 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: hard for me to explain it. It's very clear in 398 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: my head and it's very clear what I do it's 399 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 1: hard to explain it. So this, this principle is you 400 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: can invest into something that you don't own, basically meaning 401 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: you can't go out and put a lot of time 402 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: and effort and energy into property that you're hunting by 403 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: permission or that you're leasing. And this all came about 404 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: because I had a property here in Michigan that I 405 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: leased for I don't even remember how long. I know 406 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: it was at least ten years. It might have been 407 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: closer to fifteen. I don't remember when I first started, 408 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: but I lost that too years ago, I guess, um 409 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: just a phone call in the spring saying, hey, I'm 410 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: not going to lease it anymore. And that really like 411 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: it all came crashing down because I thought, okay, now 412 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: I spent almost forty dollars on this place in lease fees, 413 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: who knows how much money in food plots. I spent 414 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: additional money on cameras and stands that I probably wouldn't 415 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: have before. All of that money stuff obviously hurt. But 416 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: what really hurt is I'm now going into I've got 417 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: three months to figure out a property and I can't. 418 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: I never you know, you can't take ten or twelve 419 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: years of experience and replace it in three months. So 420 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: everything that I invested into that property was a complete 421 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: and total waste. Yeah, I killed some decent deer and 422 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: I had some good hunting, but I can't use it again. 423 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: I can't do it going forward. So now what I do. 424 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: The only thing that I will invest a lot of 425 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: time and for it, really any money at all into, 426 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: is something that I own. And that's either obviously private 427 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: land that you own, which I don't own any right now, 428 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: or public land that can't be taken away. And there 429 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: are some gray areas there, but for the most part, 430 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm talking about state and federally owned um property that 431 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: I will never lose. It doesn't mean that I don't 432 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: hunt someplace that someone gave me permission to hunt. I will. 433 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: What it does mean is I'm not going in there 434 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: and doing a bunch of extra effort or work. I'm 435 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: not trying to force my way to find time. Because nobody, 436 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who you are, we none of us 437 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: have the amount of time to hunt that we want. 438 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: So you have to make it, and that means taken 439 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: time away from family or whatever it is. If I'm 440 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: going to take that time away, it's going to be 441 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: spent on a place I know I'm never gonna lose. 442 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: And if I had done that, maybe I don't kill 443 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: a five or six or seven year old buck whatever. 444 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: You know, I've got some of those on that place 445 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: at least. But I would be going into the future 446 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: seasons knowing that I have a pretty good spot figured out. 447 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to do the things that 448 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: i want to do. It just you know, like I said, 449 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to explain, but the bottom line is, when 450 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: you're investing the amount of time and energy into those places, 451 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: you have to know what's going away, and it is 452 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: that you're not going to be able to keep those 453 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: places if you lease them or have permission, it's all 454 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: gonna it's all gonna come to a head and it's 455 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: gonna stop. So I just won't do it anymore. Um. 456 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: Definitely a hard concept to understand and very counter to 457 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: what a lot of people would think. But that's the 458 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: way I do it right now. And so the big 459 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: thing here is is if you it's all that time 460 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: and energy and knowledge that you sink into these places, 461 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: and if you could never cash in on that knowledge 462 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: again because it's gone, And of course the money. What's 463 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: the point so that, so you're sticking with land you 464 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: own or public land that's always going to be there. 465 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: Talk to me about those two options. So what about 466 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: for folks that want to buy? What's the Tony Hanson 467 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: take on buying land? I know you've got some experience 468 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: both owning land yourself and being someone who sells land. Uh, 469 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: can you give me a little bit of your thoughts 470 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: there for someone listening and if they want to take 471 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: that leap a little bit of perspective on that. I've 472 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: never met someone who bought land who regretted it, And 473 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: you can't say that about very many things. Um, there's 474 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: certainly been people who bought it and then it what 475 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: it didn't turn out to hunt the way they wanted, etcetera, 476 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: and they ended up, you know, flipping it and getting 477 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: something else. But I've never met someone who bought property 478 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: and be like, I wish I hadn't done that. Owning 479 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: your own land is the only way you're ever going 480 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: to be able to truly control all the variables that 481 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: you want to control. I do think it's more affordable 482 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: than people think. If you think about if you're spending 483 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: two or three or four grand a year on a lease. 484 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: I know you can buy land that it might not 485 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: be the eight acres you want, but um, I know 486 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: you can buy a smaller piece and probably do just 487 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 1: as well. If you buy it you know the right way, 488 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: and get the right types of things on that smaller property, 489 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: you can own it. Um. It's not as hard as 490 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: people think. It does take some discipline. You do have 491 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: to save money for down payment and all of that. 492 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: But in the long term, I wish that I had 493 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: started buying land a lot sooner than I ever did. 494 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: And I know going forward that that's you know, another 495 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: person I had something. I sold it because the market 496 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: got really good, honestly, um. And so it seems like 497 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: that's the thing you do when you have a smaller piece, 498 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: you can flip it and get something bigger. So someday 499 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: I'll do that. But I don't think if anybody is 500 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: considering it or on the fence, I think you need 501 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: to really look into it, because you're not. I don't 502 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: know how you would ever reat doing that. And if 503 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: someone wants to do that, And let's let's take the 504 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: scenario small properties, because that's where most people start. Uh, 505 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: your three most important things when buying a small property 506 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: or something on those lines, What are those things that 507 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: you're looking for or would recommend to someone. Well, the 508 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: first one is budget. Don't overspend um. That's just a 509 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: personal thing. People get in trouble doing that, so obviously 510 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: stay with your means. I like the location. Obviously there 511 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: are parts of Michigan that I would much rather have 512 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: land in, and I'm sure it's that same way in 513 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: every state. And the third thing, especially if it's a 514 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: smaller piece, um, the shape of it matters. So let's 515 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: say you're buying fifteen acres, I don't want to square. 516 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: I want a rectangle. I want it to be deeper 517 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: than it is wide, because that's going to get you 518 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: further off the road. It's gonna get you more depth 519 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: into different habitats and different cover types. And if possible, 520 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: it's this is not as common in Michigan, but places 521 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: like um Ohio, Missouri, Indiana. I'd really like it to 522 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: be land locked with an easement, like an access through 523 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: someone else's place to get further off the road. And 524 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: I love it if it borders like a big piece 525 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: of public like in southern Ohio or southern Indiana, then 526 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: you can really have something special. Now, some people would 527 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: look at that and say that that sounds a little 528 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: contintuitive because they're gonna hear next to public land where 529 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: there's gonna be tons of pressure, and they're gonna be 530 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: shooting all the deer and pushing stuff all around. Why 531 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: do you not think that it depends on the type 532 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: of terrain. But I can tell you I was just 533 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: I did a one day turkey trip to southern Ohio yesterday. 534 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: My legs are screaming at me today and I feel 535 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: like I'm kind of crazy. I do a lot of 536 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: things people won't do. I promise you there were hills 537 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: I stopped and turned around. The average person wouldn't get 538 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: to that point. If you have. If it's the way 539 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: that that public lay is out and it's got those 540 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: types of hills and ridges, you're not going to see 541 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,239 Speaker 1: very many people. And if you do see someone like that, 542 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: you should be very you should be happy and celebrate 543 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: with them because they're doing something that pcent of the 544 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: population will not do. And that's and it's not just 545 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: about getting deep. I mean, it's you have got to 546 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: go over some crazy stuff in some of those places. 547 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: And if you're on the back side of that, you know, 548 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: a mile, two miles, three miles from that road access, Um, 549 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: you're gonna be pretty much hunting deer that are untouched. Yeah. 550 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: So talking about public land, I like the fact that 551 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: within this the way you think about this, that you 552 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: look at public land is something that is worth investing 553 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: in because, as you know, as an American, you do 554 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: own it right per se, and it's not gonna be 555 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: taken away from you, UM hopefully and UM. Talk to 556 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: me about that side of things you've got. I really 557 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: like the process you go through when it comes to 558 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: finding public land that you think is worth hunting. You've 559 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: got a hell of a system there that's a little 560 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: different than some people. Can you walk me through that 561 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: research process of how you go about figuring out those 562 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: new spots you're gonna check out. Yeah, and it's I'm 563 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: almost an addict to, you know, like on x and 564 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: Google Earth and all that stuff. A lot of people 565 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: sit around at night watching The Bachelor. I sit around 566 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: at night watching Google Earth and onyx. Um. I start 567 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: by looking at, obviously the amount of land that I 568 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: would have to choose from. I'm just I've learned over time. 569 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: I can't go someplace and have two or three options 570 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: because I've gotten burned where I've done that. You know, here, 571 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: I've just driven ten eleven hours and I spent whatever, 572 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of dollars on this tag, and I get there 573 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: and the two or three options that I thought were 574 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: awesome are not good, and now I'm really scrambling. And 575 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: scrambling is never going to be productive when you've only 576 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: got five over six days in a place you probably 577 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: have never been. So I need fifteen to thirty options 578 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: that I could get to. I'm also different. I think 579 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: it's why a lot of you know, my friends that 580 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: used to hunt with me, they really don't like to 581 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: It has no problem. I have no problem getting up 582 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: in the morning and driving seventy miles to a spot, 583 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: and then another hundred and fifty to look at another one, 584 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: and then coming back, you know, and eighty the other way. 585 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: It does not bother me to do a big, big 586 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: area when I'm looking at stuff. But I gotta have 587 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: a lot of options. So I look at that once 588 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: you look past, you know, and say, Okay, there's there's 589 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: enough ground that I can work with. Obviously, I look 590 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: at the number of licenses that are sold. That is 591 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: kind of the only number that doesn't lie. UM. You 592 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: can see lots of stuff on line forums about this 593 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: buck was killed, this buck was killed. But I need 594 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: to know how many people actually are out hunting and 595 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: have hunting licenses. That really dictates a lot of the 596 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: pressure to me. Do you like to look at the 597 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: county level or just state level of the one state level? 598 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: I mean most states, you can't get a whole lot 599 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: deeper than that. Some states have UM you know, they 600 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: break down the number of deer that were tagged in 601 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: each county based on their TeleCheck, and that is that's helpful, 602 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: and generally when I see that, if the area I 603 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: want to go to, if like say there's six counties 604 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: and three of them had really high deer kills and 605 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: two of them were medium, when one was lower, I'm 606 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: going to the one with lower if the habitats the same, 607 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: because in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, there's just fewer 608 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: people hunting there, but it's still the same stuff in 609 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: the way I confirm that and maybe this is a 610 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: different I don't know if a lot of people do. 611 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: I look at real estate listings all the time, and 612 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: I'm looking at their trail cameras and seeing what type 613 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: of deer around those cameras. And I can usually tell 614 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: by the way this is gonna sound horrible, but I 615 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: can tell by the a the listing is written if 616 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: the person who listed it knows anything about deer hunting. 617 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: And I can tell by the way the cameras are 618 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: set up if that person really is a serious deer hunter. 619 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: And if there are a non serious deer hunter and 620 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: it's listed by someone who's not that serious about deer 621 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: hunting and there's nice bucks on there, I get super 622 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: excited because I'm like, they have that area in general 623 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: probably doesn't put a high emphasis on deer hunting, So 624 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: that's someplace I might be able to make some hay. 625 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: So I just use, you know, sources like that to 626 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: figure out where these public areas that I do want 627 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: to hunt. Yeah, so you look at when going back 628 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: to the numbers, you've got this kind of formulaic approach. 629 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: I guess maybe you call it when you're looking at 630 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: licensed sales, number of deer killed. And then I think, 631 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: if I remember right, you also talked about just general 632 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: human population. Yeah, can you talk through though, how you 633 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: weigh those things? Because you've got an interesting approach on that. Yeah, 634 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the easiest part is I just 635 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: go by the principles and the number one as pressure 636 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: is more portant than everything. So if I have two 637 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: very similar areas that I'm trying to decide between, I'm 638 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: gonna go to the one that has fewer people. I 639 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: look a lot at town size. Um it's a pain 640 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: in the butt, but I don't like to be near 641 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: a town that has hotels because that's where people will stay. 642 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: So I'm looking at the population density of the county, 643 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: the total population, which can be misleading because some counties, 644 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: so like in Kansas, have more people than the county 645 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: I live in here, but the ground area is four 646 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: times larger, So you do have to look at the 647 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: density a little bit too. And UM, I'm gonna try 648 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: to pick those places where as few people would ever 649 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: venture as possible, And generally speaking, if you have a 650 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: hotel or something, I'm gonna dry about a twenty or 651 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: thirty mile circle around that town and stay away from it. 652 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: It makes sense, makes sense. Probably is that hard to 653 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: find spots like that that meet all those criteria. It's 654 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: it's it's less hard to find the spots. It's harder 655 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: to figure out. Okay, if I'm going for a week 656 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 1: in November, what am I gonna do because I kind 657 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: of have to stop and sleep somewhere. And I have 658 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: a camping set up right in the back of my truck, 659 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: just a cheap thing that I made. I can't always 660 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: do that in November because I do get cold and 661 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: it at some point it's like, I'm totally willing to 662 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: take the abuse and to go, you know, and suffer. 663 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I do this because I 664 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: enjoy it. And am I enjoying it now? When it's 665 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: twenty degrees at night and I'm freezing and I can't 666 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: sleep and I'm parked literally in somebody's pasture and I'm 667 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: waiting for them to come shoot me. You know, there's 668 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: a fine line there. Takes a little fun out of it. Yeah. Yeah, Uh. 669 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: What about the rest of your digital I don't want 670 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 1: to call it stalking, but digital snooping. Um, you talked 671 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: with the real estate listing stuff, which is super smart, 672 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: but you also talked about using some social media, some forums, videos, 673 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: stuff like that. How does that factor into your kind 674 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: of fact checking of these areas You find appealing. Yeah, 675 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: so that's kind of one of the secrets. It's not 676 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: really seecret, but sometimes I wish I hadn't given it 677 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: away because people will stop doing it. But if they 678 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: talk about a place and you could, I guess you 679 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: could do it in reverse, if you talk about a 680 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: place online and and there's a lot of chatter about it, 681 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna hunt it because everybody is looking at 682 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: it and they're like, and the classic example of this 683 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: the Woodbury Wildlife Area near Coshocton, Ohio. I'll just throw 684 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: it out there because it's not a secret anymore. Back 685 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: in the day, my friends and I we would go 686 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: down there and we would waylay the turkeys. It was 687 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: so stupid. I mean, I think we killed eight in 688 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: one day with ten of us. And now there was 689 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,959 Speaker 1: a story that and this is like ten or twelve 690 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: years ago. The story came out a lot of like 691 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: the Michigan Sportsman forums and stuff. We're just coming up 692 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: in a lot of chatter on it, and now it's 693 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 1: really a shell of itself and it's a hun percent 694 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: because people saw online when they're researching like I'm doing, 695 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: They're like, man, people say this is good let's go there. 696 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: I do the opposite. If people say it's good, I 697 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: go somewhere else, um, because I figure a lot of 698 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: people are doing that and saying, yeah, I'll check this 699 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: place out. It's got a good reputation. Um. I just 700 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: don't go anywhere. Now. If I look up a public 701 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: area and I don't see much chatter, I get really 702 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: excited about that, and I'm really careful about what I'll 703 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: say about it, Like you know, kind of now, I 704 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: really don't tell anybody what states I hunt anymore. I'll 705 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: say I'm you know, in the Great Plains or lower Midwest. Um, 706 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: but I don't mention a whole lot about the states anymore. 707 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: With that mind, did you have do you have any 708 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: worries about putting all this stuff out there? I mean, 709 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: you've got a little bit of a process that's different 710 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: than some that's helped you uniquely. Did you think at 711 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: all about when you're writing this book? Just do I 712 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: want everyone to realize that this is a way to 713 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: go about it. I mean, I just thought of that 714 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: when I'm thinking about the same thing, like not being 715 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: super open about locations. It's something I do too. It 716 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: can be worrisome and I think about all this myself. 717 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: How do you process that yourself? I don't know. I 718 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 1: go back and forth, um and I think I'm probably 719 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: more selfish and greedy than I should be. I'm certainly 720 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: less so than I was. And I think partly that's 721 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: why I did write this is because I want to 722 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: change that a little bit. I want to give back 723 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more, I think. But at the same time, 724 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: I think I would rather have people out and this 725 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: this might rub some people wrong too, like especially in 726 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: public land, I would rather have you hunting in a 727 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: way that makes it possible for those dear to keep 728 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: moving and kind of keep the pressure down, then doing 729 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: it other ways that had a lot of pressure and 730 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: bump a lot of deer and spook a lot of deer. 731 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: It's not it's not like I'm so smart that people 732 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: couldn't figure this out, you know, all these things in 733 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: the book on their own. But I do want people 734 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: to have success. I do want them to, you know, 735 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: enjoy their time out there. And I think part of 736 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: being in the communication field is it's kind of your 737 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: duty to tell people what you've learned and experiences that 738 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: you've had, and it's a formula yeah, but it's not 739 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: like they're not buying a lot or you know, like 740 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: a guaranteed lottery ticket. Here, I'm still going to struggle 741 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: years where I don't kill any bucks, and I wrote 742 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: the book, so I don't know, I don't I think 743 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: about it. But at the same time, I think there's 744 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: enough involved that you still have to kind of do 745 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 1: the work yourself. These things are always easier said than done, 746 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: that's for sure. Oh wait, easier so so long those lines. Then, 747 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: you know, talking about how it would be probably beneficial 748 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: for all of us if more folks that are hunting 749 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: public land are doing in a way that doesn't pressure 750 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: and blow stuff up as much. That kind of ties 751 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: into your whole scouting approach, which you touched on a 752 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: little bit earlier, but I think it's worth diving into 753 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more. Um, just the whole idea that 754 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: you've kind of canned your preseason scouting and focus just 755 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: on in season and and that's pretty that's pretty contrary 756 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: to popular opinion these days, a lot of folks are 757 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: really really into offseason scouting. Um, is there any offseason 758 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: stuff that you think is still worth doing in your system? 759 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: For sure? And it's what I do. It's literally on 760 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: a reason I went down to Ohio yesterday. Um, the 761 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: Turkey season scouting to me is the most beneficial because 762 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: I can only look at I can only figure out 763 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: so much on an aerial photo. I'm not I mean, 764 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: Google Earth helps a ton, but I'm not great at 765 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: reading you know, the elevation and lines and all of 766 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: that and understanding exactly how steep this thing is and 767 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff down there you have to 768 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: wonder if it's coal mine reclamation or not. In that 769 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: hunt's totally different than if it's If it's not, it's 770 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen it, you know what I'm talking about. 771 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: That stuff that was mined and then is reclaimed is 772 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: incredibly thick and you have to do a lot of 773 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: things different than it's if it's just normal hardwoods that's 774 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: been managed in things. So the boots on the ground 775 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: and getting familiar with the property is super important. And 776 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: that's why I think Turkey season is a great time 777 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: to do it because you can go out and explore 778 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: and you really can cover a lot of places fast. 779 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: You don't worry about what you're doing to the deer 780 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter at that point. Outside of that, 781 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: I really don't have a whole lot of use for 782 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: any other UM scouting. And now it's fun to get 783 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: trail camera pictures a deer in velvet, and I try 784 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: because I enjoy it, but I don't put any value 785 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: in that almost at all. And the idea is those 786 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: bucks are relocating anyways in most cases, right yes, And 787 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: if they don't, that's fine because in Michigan UM most 788 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: of the time, I'm not going to have any velvelet 789 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: pictures out of state because I don't leave my cameras 790 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: out there in the public. But the only place that 791 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: I would would be here in Michigan, and we don't 792 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: have the most sophisticated of habitats. You know, it's a 793 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: square wood lot, a square property. It's kind of easy 794 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: to figure out if that buck did stay around, it's 795 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: kind of easy to figure out what to do in 796 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: early October, late October and the rut. So it's not 797 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: like I have a lot to figure out. But for 798 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: the most part, those bucks are not going to stay 799 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: there once the hunting pressure starts, or if they do 800 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: stay there, there darn near unhuntable. They get really nocturnal, 801 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: all the stuff you know. You know this because you've 802 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: lived it. If you can get those deer unpressured and 803 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: staying there, then you've got a chance. I just don't 804 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,720 Speaker 1: I don't think the odds of that are very high 805 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: when you have as many deer hunters as we have, 806 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: so so would that be in the case, then yes, 807 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: you hang back out of most of the stuff. You're 808 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: not pressuring him in the summer. You're not pressure him 809 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: just before the season like a lot of folks do 810 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 1: when they go out and set their stands the week 811 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: before the season or something like that. UM, walk me 812 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,359 Speaker 1: through once season opens. I know you've got a kind 813 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: of rule of three approach to kicking off the season. 814 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: On those traveling hunts are kicking off a hunt, But 815 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: what about for your local stuff? How does that begin? Yeah, 816 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,280 Speaker 1: the local stuff is gonna literally, you know, obviously begins 817 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: the youth weekend. A little bit, not so much because 818 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: the places around me. Um, the kids that I knew 819 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: hunted are old enough they don't hunt the youth season 820 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: and they're not old enough to have kids yet, so 821 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: that isn't as much of a factor. And I love 822 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,479 Speaker 1: the youth season. I want to keep it going don't. 823 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: I don't want anybody saying that I'm thinking saying anything 824 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: other than that, but that is hunting, sure, So I 825 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,399 Speaker 1: just wanted to see if anybody was out. And then 826 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,760 Speaker 1: from the first week of October through about the tenth, 827 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: like I said, I'm just going to go in the 828 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: mornings generally mornings, um on the weekends, and evenings on 829 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: the weekdays early in the season, and I'm just gonna 830 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,840 Speaker 1: see who if there's anybody parked at the places that 831 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: I can hunt. And then around that eighth ninth tent 832 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: of October, if I've just found some places that aren't 833 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: getting hunted super hard, I will go in you know, 834 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: midday and go through it pretty much as quick as 835 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 1: I can. I'm not, you know, being an idiot about 836 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: it and running, but I'm I'm gonna walk right through it. 837 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: And I'm looking for scrapes. That's pretty much the only 838 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,359 Speaker 1: thing I'm looking for. If I see a big road, 839 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: I love it, but I'm really looking for the scrapes 840 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: because that's gonna tell me, Okay, there's bucks in here 841 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: and this is where they like to hang around, and 842 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: I will get a camera on it. Um sell cameras 843 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: now or obviously a godsend. So I run a lot 844 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: of those, and then I wait three or four or 845 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: five days and see what those cameras are picking up 846 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: on those grapes. And if I find one to hunt, 847 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: then I already kind of know where I would put 848 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: a stand based on again, Michigan is not that hard 849 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: to figure out where to set up. And uh, when 850 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: I get ready to hunt, I usually will take stand 851 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: right with me that day, usually in an evening, you know, 852 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: get it there just earlier, slip it up there and 853 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: uh and start hunting, and until the cameras tell me 854 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: that something has changed. Um, it's it. It seems like 855 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: it's a lot of wasted time, and it is when 856 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: you don't really hunt the first two weeks. But it's 857 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: a waste of time for me to hunt the first 858 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: two weeks because if I'm looking at other guys, you know, 859 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: a hundred yards away, I'm not really hunting anyway. Maybe 860 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: it's skipping ahead a little bit here, But you've got 861 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: this rule of three approach for those travel hunts in 862 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 1: which you well, let's take a stip. Let's just talk 863 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: about that first, and then we'll talk about how that 864 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: applies to the step on the private or your your 865 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 1: local stuff. So let's let's now look at the same 866 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: snares the beginning of your trip to wherever you're going, 867 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,919 Speaker 1: some Great Plain state or wherever you are. You maybe 868 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: did a Turkey scouting trip, maybe not, but you did 869 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: all of this East scouting. You've got a bunch of 870 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: potential locations. You have looked at the numbers for deers, 871 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: dear killed human population, You've looked at the number of 872 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: licenses sold, and you zeroed it on these zones. Now 873 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: it's late October or early in November when you or 874 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,959 Speaker 1: or maybe it's November fifteenth when you take off after 875 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: gun season. Talk to me about how you approached the 876 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: beginning of that type of hunt and this rule of three. Yeah, 877 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: So the I try to time it, if possible, to 878 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: get there so that I'm I'm not arriving in the 879 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: middle of the day because I just feel like there's 880 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: only three or four or five hours or whatever till dark, 881 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: kind of wasted time. I can scout a little, but 882 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get done what I want to 883 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: get done. So I try, I try to make it 884 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: so I'm either getting there, you know, after dark, sleeping 885 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 1: and then getting right up early and going or sometimes 886 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: and I do this a lot too. I literally will 887 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: drive through the night so that I get there right 888 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: when the sun is coming up, and then I take 889 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,839 Speaker 1: off and start scouting. But the whole point is that 890 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: first day is balls to the wall, as hard as 891 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,359 Speaker 1: I can go, as many miles as I have. If 892 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: there's no units, it is I don't care if I 893 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: go from the east side of the state to the 894 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: west side until I find what I want unless I'm 895 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: restricted by a unit in the license um. And I'm 896 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: looking for for three spots that I can hunt, And 897 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 1: by the end of that first day, I want to 898 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: have one tree stand up so I can hunt the 899 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: following morning or maybe the evening if I get lucky, 900 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 1: and two trail cameras, and I don't want them in 901 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: the same spot. Obviously, I'm gonna put a trail camera 902 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: where I put my tree stand, but I want two 903 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: additional trail cameras. So I've got three things by the 904 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: end of the very first day that I'm there that 905 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,840 Speaker 1: are sort of quote unquote hunting, you know, the cameras 906 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: are always hunting for me. And then that first morning 907 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: I will be sitting in a spot I feel like 908 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,479 Speaker 1: they are going through and this was all and all 909 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: of it kind of ties into I was just wasting 910 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: so much time out on these out of state hunts, 911 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: scouting and doing all that stuff that I was half 912 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: of my week was gone and I hadn't decided on 913 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: a place, and it was nonproductive and it didn't make 914 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: any sense. I had to start trusting myself that I 915 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: had picked the state, the county, the area based on 916 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: research that I thought there was mature bucks there, better 917 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: than average number of them, and less hunting pressure. So 918 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: when I find deer sign buck sign like scrapes, I 919 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: need to start assuming that those are the types of 920 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: bucks I want to hunt and just start spending time 921 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: there instead of trying to find the perfect spot on 922 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: the spot all the time. And it really kind of 923 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: opened the door to me killing a lot more of 924 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: them because I wasn't wasting so much time. So the 925 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: idea is basically, get on the first pretty decent looking 926 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: spot because you can learn so much more through observation 927 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: right by being out there hunting, and then also trust 928 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,879 Speaker 1: that you've got cameras and two other spots. Is that 929 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,280 Speaker 1: is that the idea versus wasting time walking and walking exactly. 930 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 1: You know, I just have to trust the fact that 931 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: where I'm at has less hunting pressure than what I'm 932 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: used to. In those types of states with a good 933 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, age structure and sex ratio and all that, 934 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of yearling bucks making scrapes or 935 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: really actively working those scrapes. If you find a good 936 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: active scrape and you know, you know what when you 937 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: see it, that's likely going to be made by multiple 938 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: deer that are overage. Two, there's no reason to keep searching. 939 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: If you have a good ambush site and it's far 940 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: enough off a road that you don't think they're just 941 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: doing it, you know, at night as they crossed the 942 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,800 Speaker 1: feeding a corn field or something, there's no reason to 943 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: keep looking. Get a camera on it, get a stand up, 944 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,800 Speaker 1: get out of there, Go find another parcel, find another similar, 945 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,399 Speaker 1: you know, set of scrapes, get a camera on them, 946 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: get out of there, Go find another one, get a 947 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: camera on it, and then you can start. Now you've 948 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: got three spots that are telling you by the end 949 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: of the first day what's here, and hopefully that's all 950 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: it takes. Sometimes I have to do it all again 951 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: the second day, but generally speaking, that first evening I 952 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,720 Speaker 1: will have a camera or I will have a photo 953 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: of a buck that i'd be happy to shoot. Yeah. 954 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: So I'm sure there's some people listening who either are 955 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,920 Speaker 1: having a hard time visualizing what you're talking about when 956 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: you're saying a great active scrape area, or maybe there's 957 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,359 Speaker 1: someone listening who's heard people talk about scrapes, that heard 958 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: people talk about primary scrapes, that heard people talk about 959 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: field edge scrapes. Blah blah blah blah blah. Uh can 960 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: you just paint a more detail picture of exactly what 961 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: this kind of scrape area looks like that for you 962 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,360 Speaker 1: is worth stopping on. Yeah. So the first thing I 963 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: would say, if you're super interested in in just being 964 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: more knowledgeable about deer, I would go to Johnny Eberhart's 965 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,960 Speaker 1: books about scrapes. He doesn't have a book about scrapes, 966 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,879 Speaker 1: but he writes a lot about them. Gene and Barry 967 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: Wentzel are scrape geniuses. They have done so many discoveries 968 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,799 Speaker 1: on scrapes that so anything that they've written. And then 969 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: the deer lab um, I think it's uh, South Carolina 970 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: or whatever university has the deer lab and that'll tell 971 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,839 Speaker 1: you all the different types of scrapes. What I tell 972 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 1: you is, I don't care what type of scrape it is. 973 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: As long as it's being pawed and peed in, that's it. 974 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: That's it. I care that it looks active, and you 975 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 1: can tell it's active and it's not, you know, just 976 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: one of the like the field edge or boundary or 977 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: frustration scrapes. It's gonna be fairly large, maybe you know 978 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: the size of a of a like a snow sled saucer, 979 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: one of those things. It's gonna have at least one 980 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: good looking branch and probably two or three. And if 981 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,800 Speaker 1: it's really one of those kind of hubs that people 982 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,920 Speaker 1: that the bucks hit a lot, just stand at that 983 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 1: scrape and look in a circle around you, and if 984 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,919 Speaker 1: you see one or two other scrapes in sight, that's 985 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: you need to be there. And the reason I love 986 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: scrapes more than anything else is because there's no other 987 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: sign in the woods besides a rub that tells you 988 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: bucks use that area. And rubs are less um, they're 989 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: less timely because you can have a rub that was 990 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 1: made the first week of September or mid September is 991 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,359 Speaker 1: they're losing velvet, and that is going to be there 992 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: until the end of the year. A scrape has to 993 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: be hit every day or two for it to stay 994 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,719 Speaker 1: looking open and fresh and active, and that's what I want. 995 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 1: And I also know a scrape is going to be 996 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: hit by more than one buck. A rub probably isn't. 997 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: So if I find those active scrapes with some big 998 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,359 Speaker 1: rubs in the area, there's zero reason to keep looking 999 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,400 Speaker 1: for another place to hunt. And that's what I would do, 1000 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,280 Speaker 1: though I'd be like, oh, I need to go deeper, 1001 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,399 Speaker 1: or I really want to have three pinch points lining 1002 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,640 Speaker 1: up here, and I would just it was I was 1003 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,839 Speaker 1: just paralyzed by analyzing all that stuff and wouldn't make 1004 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,439 Speaker 1: good decisions. And now the decision is easy. I want 1005 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: to find the best spot I can as fast as 1006 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,840 Speaker 1: I can. And my version of best is doesn't have scrapes, 1007 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: and can I hunt it? And if it does, I'm 1008 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: gonna hunt it. In your book, you talk a lot 1009 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 1: about or you refer to some spots is proximity areas? 1010 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 1: What do you what do you mean by that? Is 1011 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: that just like a sound like this or yeah, so um, 1012 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,720 Speaker 1: you just need to be in the proximity of where 1013 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 1: a buck will where he's living. You're not going to 1014 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: find that out um in a week's time. Generally, and 1015 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: especially on a place you've never hunted, you're not gonna 1016 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: know where that buck beds. You're not gonna know, especially 1017 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 1: anything western the Mississippi. They travel so far. I just 1018 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,319 Speaker 1: need to be in a proximity of him that he 1019 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: will come through, and the scrapes tell me where he 1020 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: wants to be. It's not like if you think about 1021 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,520 Speaker 1: it in human terms, right, we do things opposite of 1022 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,240 Speaker 1: what dear do. So like say Mark wants to live 1023 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 1: in Idaho, You're gonna move to Idaho and buy a house, 1024 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 1: and you're going to change all of your travel pattern 1025 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 1: around that house. Right, the scrape is the opposite. He 1026 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: already lives where he lives. He does what he does. 1027 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: The scrapes show up where he moves. So he doesn't like, 1028 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,479 Speaker 1: go well, over there would be a beauty full spot 1029 00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 1: for a scrape. Let me go over there and make that. 1030 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,560 Speaker 1: He doesn't do that. He makes the scrape where he 1031 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: travels and where he expects other dear to be traveling, 1032 00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,600 Speaker 1: and other bucks will be traveling. And that's why when 1033 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 1: you only have five six days to hunt. You have 1034 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,399 Speaker 1: such a leg up if you are hunting in an 1035 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,359 Speaker 1: area where there are scrapes, because those bucks are coming there. 1036 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,960 Speaker 1: You hope they're coming there in daylight. You won't know 1037 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,919 Speaker 1: until you start hunting it and get your cameras going. 1038 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: But you've picked a spot that's less pressured, so the 1039 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: odds are better that they're going to be doing it 1040 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,600 Speaker 1: in the daylight. When when you're going on one of 1041 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,879 Speaker 1: these rut traveling trips and you're looking for this kind 1042 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:43,359 Speaker 1: of thing, um, do you prioritize where you're gonna walk 1043 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 1: and do your speed scouting to hit typical rut things. 1044 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,319 Speaker 1: Because right, we haven't talked about funnels or pinch points 1045 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,759 Speaker 1: or dough betting areas that a lot of people would 1046 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:53,800 Speaker 1: be saying you have focused on those kinds of places 1047 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,239 Speaker 1: during the rut. You haven't said those words once, um, 1048 00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:58,920 Speaker 1: and hardly talk about it in the book at all. 1049 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,640 Speaker 1: Do you still have that in the back of your mind? 1050 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 1: Is places that you want to look for these scrape 1051 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,839 Speaker 1: type setups, or forget it. I'm just covering ground until 1052 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,879 Speaker 1: I find my scrapes. It's for me, it's a little 1053 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 1: bit different because a lot of the places that have 1054 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,280 Speaker 1: less hunting pressure, or my version of less hunting pressure, 1055 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to get zero to be honest with you, 1056 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get zero hunting pressure. So I'm looking 1057 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: at places that are really not necessarily remote, but they're 1058 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,479 Speaker 1: like on the fringe of what people would think would 1059 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: be good deer hunting. I mean, I've definitely hunted places 1060 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:39,719 Speaker 1: that are The whole farm was acres of walking access 1061 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,280 Speaker 1: and there were three trees on it, and I really 1062 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: wanted to hunt that place. Not many sane people would 1063 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,960 Speaker 1: do that. So I don't have to worry as much 1064 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: about the pinch points and that sort of thing, because 1065 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: they're going to where the trees are, so the terrain 1066 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: and that kind of takes care of itself. They're going 1067 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,279 Speaker 1: to travel along those, um those creek bottoms and drainages 1068 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,200 Speaker 1: and finger ridges and things. Now, when you get into 1069 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:13,000 Speaker 1: a place like Appalachia, Ohio, Southern Indiana, Missouri is in 1070 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,040 Speaker 1: a Appalachia, but it has similar type stuff, then it, yes, 1071 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,960 Speaker 1: it does matter more. And then I would have looked 1072 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: at saddles and funnels and things that I can figure out. 1073 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: But that's where the Turkey season really comes in because 1074 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,360 Speaker 1: I'm not good at that. I'm not good at seeing 1075 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,920 Speaker 1: those digitally. I think I can find them, and then 1076 00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,640 Speaker 1: I go there and I'm like, oh, this isn't what 1077 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: I thought. This is a straight cliff. So I do 1078 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: have to get on the ground for those, and I 1079 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: do that in Turkey season. But for the most part, 1080 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: don't overthink it. The scrapes are there because the deer 1081 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 1: walked there. They walked there. Whether it was a pinch 1082 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 1: point or funnel, I don't care. They made a scrape, 1083 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,640 Speaker 1: so they're there. You know. That's the part where I 1084 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 1: would I would confuse myself and I be thinking, I 1085 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: literally would. I can literally remember thinking, man, there's a 1086 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: bunch of big rubs and their scrapes here, but there's 1087 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:12,560 Speaker 1: no pinch point, so I'm gonna keep looking. I've been there. Yeah, 1088 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,560 Speaker 1: And it's counterproduct. I mean, when you think of it 1089 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,600 Speaker 1: that way, you're like, hmm, that doesn't make sense. So 1090 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: and I don't you know, it's not like I'm saying, 1091 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: here's a scrape, I'm gonna hunt right over it. After 1092 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,360 Speaker 1: I find the scrapes, then I'm looking in that area. 1093 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 1: What's the what's the most likely spot that you are 1094 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,479 Speaker 1: going to walk through that I can pinch them down, 1095 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 1: And there are some even in those like you know, 1096 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,800 Speaker 1: Kansas and Iowa type situations where they're creek bottoms, there's 1097 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,120 Speaker 1: certainly spots where you can do that. So if I'm 1098 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: within a hundred yards of that scrape, I'm fine. I 1099 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,320 Speaker 1: don't care exactly how closer far I am. As long 1100 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,520 Speaker 1: as I'm not too far away, I will move around 1101 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:53,160 Speaker 1: and figure out the best, you know, situation for a stand. Yeah, 1102 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,600 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit more about that, um 1103 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,360 Speaker 1: that being you know, how you pick the tree? Once 1104 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,919 Speaker 1: you found your your zone with those scrapes, what's your 1105 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: decision process to choose, Like, Okay, this is where I'm 1106 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,800 Speaker 1: going to hang my stick and stand. A lot of 1107 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: times this is gonna sound like a horrible answer, but 1108 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,120 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's whatever tree I can get 1109 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,960 Speaker 1: one in, because a lot of them states that are 1110 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, west of the Mississippi with the cottonwoods, it 1111 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what tree you want. You gotta go with 1112 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 1: the tree that you can use. They're big, they're leaning, 1113 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,600 Speaker 1: they're just terrible for stands. But if I have options, 1114 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: I want a tree where obviously I'm gonna worry about 1115 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: the wind. I want to be on the you know, 1116 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,360 Speaker 1: the side where I feel like the wind's gonna be 1117 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,320 Speaker 1: in my favor the most of the time. And I 1118 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 1: also like a tree with limbs. I just feel safer 1119 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 1: in them, and I have better cover, and I want 1120 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,200 Speaker 1: to be I really want to see the deer coming 1121 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 1: to the scrape rather than hit the scrape and going 1122 00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:01,640 Speaker 1: past me, just because I feel like I have a 1123 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,880 Speaker 1: little bit more time to my advantage when they're coming 1124 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,840 Speaker 1: to a place they want to be then leaving a 1125 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,480 Speaker 1: place that they want to be, because he could hit 1126 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,120 Speaker 1: that scrape and turn around and go back the way 1127 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:15,920 Speaker 1: he came, and I never get a shot if I'm 1128 01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 1: on the other side of it. So there is a 1129 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,800 Speaker 1: guessing game of which way they're coming from. But again, 1130 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:22,480 Speaker 1: you can look at the rubs and see which side 1131 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,640 Speaker 1: of the tree they're on, and you can look at 1132 01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,880 Speaker 1: your greater aerial view and be like, he's probably betting 1133 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:31,439 Speaker 1: here and probably coming from that direction. So I try 1134 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,919 Speaker 1: to be on a quote unquote upwind side. I don't 1135 01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,480 Speaker 1: mean literally the upwind side, I mean the travel side 1136 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,280 Speaker 1: of the scrape. And I want a tree with a 1137 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 1: bunch of limbs, so I can move around and not 1138 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,720 Speaker 1: feel like I'm going to fall out. But a lot 1139 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,160 Speaker 1: of times it depends on you know, there's just a 1140 01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: bunch of giant cotton was I kind of find whatever 1141 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,000 Speaker 1: tree I can put it in. Yeah, sometimes you're pretty 1142 01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: limited there. What about what do you Here's one thing 1143 01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,880 Speaker 1: that I always wrestle with, which is what if you 1144 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,320 Speaker 1: do have multiple tree options, but one of them has 1145 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: great cover, but it's farther away from the spot you 1146 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,600 Speaker 1: really think the deer is going to pass through. Or 1147 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,360 Speaker 1: maybe it's you only have a shot at one of 1148 01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: the shooting lanes or one of the trails. But then 1149 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 1: there's another tree that is perfectly located. Maybe you can 1150 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,800 Speaker 1: shoot to the two different travel routes you're expecting, and 1151 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,520 Speaker 1: that's grape maybe, but it is a bean pole. It's 1152 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,680 Speaker 1: why it open. Do you take the crappy tree in 1153 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,440 Speaker 1: the right location or the better tree that limits you 1154 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:39,720 Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm gonna go again to the first principle, 1155 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,880 Speaker 1: where the pressure is what will make me decide? Um. 1156 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: I shot a deer two years ago, I think, yes, 1157 01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,760 Speaker 1: two falls ago in the Great Plains. I was about 1158 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 1: nine and a half feet off the ground being pulled 1159 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:59,960 Speaker 1: straight tree. And he came from three yards away, walking 1160 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,000 Speaker 1: right at me and hit four or five scrapes on 1161 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:05,840 Speaker 1: the way, and I shot him. He was eighteen inches 1162 01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,360 Speaker 1: from the bottom of the tree stand or the base 1163 01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,160 Speaker 1: of the tree. Those deer, when they're not pressured to 1164 01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,720 Speaker 1: have zero clue that someone can shoot them from above. 1165 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,640 Speaker 1: So I wouldn't worry too much about it. I would 1166 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:19,440 Speaker 1: try to get my stand on the back side of 1167 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 1: the tree so I could hide a little bit. But 1168 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,080 Speaker 1: I don't like shooting. I don't like shooting over twenty yards, 1169 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,000 Speaker 1: So I'm going to lean more towards being closer and 1170 01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,000 Speaker 1: having a little bit better shots. And if I get 1171 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,880 Speaker 1: busted then I'm then I'll adjust. But if those it's 1172 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,080 Speaker 1: amazing deer that aren't super pressured, they really don't pay 1173 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,760 Speaker 1: any attention to tree stands. If I was in Ohio, 1174 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:46,640 Speaker 1: if I was here in Michigan, I would go for 1175 01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:51,600 Speaker 1: the much better cover. Yeah, so what about the other 1176 01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:53,840 Speaker 1: side or the the next step in your process? Once 1177 01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,480 Speaker 1: you find your spot, you found your tree. Uh, you 1178 01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,000 Speaker 1: mentioned that even if the spots rehand your stand, you're 1179 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:03,120 Speaker 1: gonna put a camera. Um, some people would say, don't 1180 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,200 Speaker 1: ever put cameras near your tree stands because they might 1181 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:09,240 Speaker 1: spook UM. What's your take on that? And and since 1182 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:10,520 Speaker 1: you do it, how do you do it in a 1183 01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,520 Speaker 1: way that you're not worried about spooking deer with those 1184 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,520 Speaker 1: camera placements. I can send you the picture of the 1185 01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,520 Speaker 1: camera that shot the deer. Took the picture of the 1186 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,800 Speaker 1: deer fifteen seconds before I killed him. UM. And I 1187 01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,160 Speaker 1: don't put this. I don't put the cameras on the 1188 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,000 Speaker 1: tree stand, tree or anything like that. I'm they're always 1189 01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,520 Speaker 1: on a scrape. I won't put a camera unless it's 1190 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,200 Speaker 1: on a scrape. UM. So I don't worry about it. 1191 01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:39,120 Speaker 1: I use UM. I have certainly had deer pictures of 1192 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,439 Speaker 1: the deer looking right directly at the camera. I think 1193 01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,280 Speaker 1: what that is? They hear something. I think some cameras 1194 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: have some sort of internal noise when they take a picture, 1195 01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 1: and generally at night, it's that filter. It's that red 1196 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:56,720 Speaker 1: little filter that flips over your lens. UM. Expensive cameras 1197 01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,640 Speaker 1: don't do that. I don't really buy expensive cameras because 1198 01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 1: I don't need to and I'm gonna lose them. I 1199 01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,640 Speaker 1: don't think the camera is spooking the deer. I've gotten 1200 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,880 Speaker 1: too many pictures of where they look at the camera 1201 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:10,959 Speaker 1: and then they're right back to doing what they're doing. 1202 01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:17,440 Speaker 1: And again, the advantage of the camera gives me is 1203 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:21,200 Speaker 1: infinitely more. The upside is just so much higher than 1204 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 1: the potential of me spooking um the deer anyway, because 1205 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm if anything's gonna spook them, it's the fact that 1206 01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:29,880 Speaker 1: I just walked down that trail and walked around their 1207 01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:33,880 Speaker 1: scrape ten hours, five hours whatever it is before that 1208 01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,480 Speaker 1: camera took their picture. I'm leaving scent that's gonna happen. 1209 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:43,280 Speaker 1: So I'm not worried about the camera. Um, I'm way 1210 01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,600 Speaker 1: more worried about not knowing what bucks we're hitting that 1211 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,680 Speaker 1: scrape when I wasn't there. Yeah, so then what next? 1212 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,280 Speaker 1: But when it comes to checking those cameras for these 1213 01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,800 Speaker 1: traveling hunts, are you trying to use sell cameras almost 1214 01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,600 Speaker 1: a pent now for those so you don't need to 1215 01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:02,000 Speaker 1: physically go back and look or yeah, yeah, I'm I'm 1216 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,400 Speaker 1: Every camera I'm gonna put out is a cell camera. 1217 01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I always have service, and that's what 1218 01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,320 Speaker 1: really gets irritating. But pretty much anymore now that you 1219 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,480 Speaker 1: have Verizon and a T and T versions, and I 1220 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,480 Speaker 1: carry both always, so I generally will take six cameras 1221 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,840 Speaker 1: with me on a trip three and three Verizon, just 1222 01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,160 Speaker 1: so that I have what will work. Um if I 1223 01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,360 Speaker 1: don't get service. And I did write about in the 1224 01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,600 Speaker 1: book a little bit too, I'm just I'm too anxious 1225 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,680 Speaker 1: and nervous. I can't sit all day very well if 1226 01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm not seeing deer, so that I generally planned. The 1227 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,840 Speaker 1: first day that I hunt, I'm gonna get down about 1228 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,120 Speaker 1: eleven eleven thirty, and I'm gonna go check cameras if 1229 01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: they're not sending pictures to me. Um, and then I 1230 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,320 Speaker 1: just go check them real quick. I just, you know, 1231 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,760 Speaker 1: buzzing there. I use a bike as much as I 1232 01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,120 Speaker 1: can where it's legal. The bike makes a big difference 1233 01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,560 Speaker 1: because it saves me time. I think does save on 1234 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,320 Speaker 1: the scent as well. And if they do see a 1235 01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:06,160 Speaker 1: bike coming buzzing at him, I don't know, maybe they 1236 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,160 Speaker 1: think that's not a hunter. I don't know if deer 1237 01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,600 Speaker 1: can think that way. But UM, I'm gonna check those 1238 01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:16,200 Speaker 1: cameras daily until if I don't get pictures like the 1239 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 1: first night, and I think this grape is really good, 1240 01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,840 Speaker 1: I'll leave it. If if I was kind of on 1241 01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,840 Speaker 1: the fence about whether it was a great spot or not, 1242 01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,000 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and find another place for that camera 1243 01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 1: on the second day. Wow, So what about your hunting, 1244 01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,680 Speaker 1: Like you you set up your stand on day one 1245 01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,360 Speaker 1: and one of those spots you hunt there the next morning. 1246 01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,720 Speaker 1: Let's say you don't see anything that first morning and 1247 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,760 Speaker 1: you don't have pictures of any mature bucks on those 1248 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,120 Speaker 1: cameras yet. Are you relocating stuff already or do you 1249 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,200 Speaker 1: just keep going back to the well and give it 1250 01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:53,360 Speaker 1: some time. That well, that's it's super hard for me 1251 01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,440 Speaker 1: because I want tom, I want to bail. But that 1252 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,040 Speaker 1: dear I just told you about um. I had been there, 1253 01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,320 Speaker 1: so I had one day to scout and I didn't 1254 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,480 Speaker 1: see a single deer, and I didn't see a deer 1255 01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,880 Speaker 1: in that entire state when I was driving through it. 1256 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 1: I found that area with the scrapes and a bunch 1257 01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,840 Speaker 1: of rubs, and it looked awesome, and it was only 1258 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,760 Speaker 1: seventy five yards from my parking spot. And I sat 1259 01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,680 Speaker 1: there the first morning until about ten o'clock because it 1260 01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,080 Speaker 1: was getting really really windy and I hadn't found any 1261 01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,400 Speaker 1: other places for camera, so I was going to get down. 1262 01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,680 Speaker 1: Didn't see a deer that whole day. I sat there 1263 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 1: the second morning and it was about ten thirty and 1264 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,600 Speaker 1: I hadn't seen a single deer, and I was fighting 1265 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,720 Speaker 1: with every ounce of my being not to bail and 1266 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,600 Speaker 1: literally take the tree stand with me on the way 1267 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 1: out and just relocate to an entire early different part 1268 01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: of the state and start all over. And I looked 1269 01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: up and he came walking through and I shot him. 1270 01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:51,919 Speaker 1: And that's the only deer I saw in that whole trip. 1271 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,160 Speaker 1: It's I don't know the right answer. I wish I 1272 01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,000 Speaker 1: did part of the time. If I can myself into it, 1273 01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:02,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to give it. The scrapes are there for 1274 01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:04,800 Speaker 1: a reason, That's what I have to keep telling myself. 1275 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,320 Speaker 1: And if they're active and there's you know, big rubs, 1276 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: give me a lot of confidence. I'm going to leave 1277 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,600 Speaker 1: it until I have a reason not to. And most 1278 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:16,280 Speaker 1: of the time I don't have a reason not to, 1279 01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,040 Speaker 1: because it's not like if I was seeing dear other places, 1280 01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,879 Speaker 1: I would move there. But I set up my cameras 1281 01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:24,800 Speaker 1: in the stand based on that's the best stuff I 1282 01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,679 Speaker 1: was able to find. In the time I had, and 1283 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,439 Speaker 1: I have to trust it. That's what That's the trap 1284 01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,719 Speaker 1: I would fall into Previously, if I didn't see a deer, 1285 01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,719 Speaker 1: I didn't like it. I just kept looking and looking 1286 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: and looking and looking, and I ended up just never 1287 01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 1: hunting and never actually spending the time that it took 1288 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,519 Speaker 1: to hunt. So I'm gonna leave him a day or two, 1289 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,720 Speaker 1: probably two days. By the third day, if nothing's on it, 1290 01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:53,680 Speaker 1: then I'm I'm getting panicked. But honestly, that shouldn't ever happen. Um, 1291 01:08:53,720 --> 01:09:00,000 Speaker 1: if it's past October, there's not going to be three days. 1292 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,800 Speaker 1: Is they go buy without bucks on those scrapes? Now, 1293 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,439 Speaker 1: what about the flip side of that, where you have 1294 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:11,599 Speaker 1: hunted and you spot one, you spot a buck you 1295 01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:13,519 Speaker 1: you would like to get a shot at, but he's 1296 01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 1: out of range and he's not hitting these scrapes, so 1297 01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,640 Speaker 1: he's not around those scrapes. He's somewhere, you know, in 1298 01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,880 Speaker 1: within sight but not within shooting range. Do you immediately relocate, 1299 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:27,719 Speaker 1: you know, as soon as that deer's out of range. 1300 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,320 Speaker 1: Do you wait till the next day? Do you think, Wow, 1301 01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,080 Speaker 1: that might have been random? I'm going to stick to 1302 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,160 Speaker 1: this spot because there's the scrapes and he should come 1303 01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:36,680 Speaker 1: back through, there's a better chance he'll be here. What 1304 01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,839 Speaker 1: about that? If did I see him making any scrapes 1305 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:41,960 Speaker 1: or he was just walking along, I'm gonna say he's 1306 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: just walking along. But tell me what you tell me 1307 01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,320 Speaker 1: how scrapes would change your thoughts. I'm not going to 1308 01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,400 Speaker 1: move because he's gonna come to those scrapes at some point. Now, 1309 01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,400 Speaker 1: if he was over there working scrapes, is literally the 1310 01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,960 Speaker 1: second I can't see him, I'm down and I'm moving 1311 01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 1: the stand over there. Um, if it's one I really 1312 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:01,920 Speaker 1: really want to shoot. Now, if it's you know, middle 1313 01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:03,880 Speaker 1: of the road and I'm like, yeah, I would shoot him. 1314 01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,760 Speaker 1: But he's not he's not the biggest buck I think 1315 01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:11,360 Speaker 1: is here, then I probably wouldn't. But um, whatever scrape 1316 01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,000 Speaker 1: that deer is on actively, And if he he had 1317 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,040 Speaker 1: to like really worked and spent time and did the 1318 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,320 Speaker 1: licking branch and all of that stuff, if he just 1319 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,559 Speaker 1: like pawed once or twice, he might just be you know, 1320 01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:27,120 Speaker 1: sexually frustrated. So but um, if he really worked it over, 1321 01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna be there. And if that was 1322 01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,200 Speaker 1: the morning, I probably expect to shoot him. That afternoon, 1323 01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,800 Speaker 1: because I think he'll be right back in there. What 1324 01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,000 Speaker 1: about if there's a buck on a dough, either chasing 1325 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,200 Speaker 1: a dough or locked on a dough. How do you 1326 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,280 Speaker 1: move on situations like that? Do you just do whatever 1327 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,120 Speaker 1: you can? I mean, when they're locked on to the 1328 01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:48,920 Speaker 1: dos in that particular deer and you can see him, 1329 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:54,559 Speaker 1: do whatever you can to get him killed. Eventually he's 1330 01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,320 Speaker 1: coming back to that scrape, but you might it might 1331 01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:59,599 Speaker 1: be three days. I mean, he's going to come back 1332 01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,200 Speaker 1: through the those areas, not just to work the scrape. 1333 01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:07,320 Speaker 1: That's just where he goes, and he's using that areas 1334 01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,400 Speaker 1: to kind of scent check. Like a lot of times, 1335 01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:12,559 Speaker 1: I think I had it wrong when I used to 1336 01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: write about this. I always talked about I wanted to 1337 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:18,040 Speaker 1: hunt those dough betting areas during the rut, and I do, 1338 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:23,120 Speaker 1: but there's tons of scrapes around there. The reason being 1339 01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,120 Speaker 1: is because the bucks are leaving scent, the doughs are 1340 01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: leaving scent. So yeah, I was hunting the dope betting areas, 1341 01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,240 Speaker 1: but I was actually hunting those scrape lines and just 1342 01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:33,800 Speaker 1: didn't realize it. So once he loses that dough, he's 1343 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,240 Speaker 1: going to be back on his prowl pattern, and where 1344 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,360 Speaker 1: he prowls there will be scrapes. If he's locked down hard. 1345 01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:42,639 Speaker 1: I know that's not going to happen for a little while, 1346 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,840 Speaker 1: So you have nothing to lose. Just you can get 1347 01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 1: snuck up on him, do whatever you can do. I 1348 01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,760 Speaker 1: suck at that, so I know. But I mean it's 1349 01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,800 Speaker 1: probably never going to happen that I kill one that way. 1350 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,439 Speaker 1: But if I see him bed down or locked down 1351 01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,880 Speaker 1: with him, I'll go try it. Yeah. What about calling? 1352 01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,000 Speaker 1: You talked a little in the book about calling in 1353 01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 1: somewhere like Michigan versus somewhere like the Great Planes. Uh, 1354 01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:08,519 Speaker 1: would you ever try to call a buck off a 1355 01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,320 Speaker 1: dough or is that just a lost cause in your perspective. 1356 01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,080 Speaker 1: I would try it. I mean I'll try anything at 1357 01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:16,200 Speaker 1: that point. But I mean, do you remember the first 1358 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:18,760 Speaker 1: time you rattled horns and a deer came in? Were 1359 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:23,760 Speaker 1: you like, holy cow, this works. I wash my early 1360 01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,160 Speaker 1: rattling all did what you just said, which would be 1361 01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:29,240 Speaker 1: they all go the other the other way. Yeah, I 1362 01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,479 Speaker 1: mean I tried it for so long and then I 1363 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,880 Speaker 1: did it and it was like holy cow. So yeah, 1364 01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,559 Speaker 1: I would. I would definitely I would definitely rattle at 1365 01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,840 Speaker 1: him um and see what happens. But I've never really 1366 01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:43,760 Speaker 1: had it. I've never really been able to pull a 1367 01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:48,280 Speaker 1: buck away. Um, And I don't. I want to use 1368 01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,040 Speaker 1: decoys so badly, but I'm not really in the situations 1369 01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,559 Speaker 1: where I hunt that a decoys practical. I just get 1370 01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:59,840 Speaker 1: tired of carrying it around and all of that. Yeah. Yeah, 1371 01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,680 Speaker 1: they're hard to justify and traveling situations especially like that. 1372 01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:06,680 Speaker 1: But they are awesome when they work. And I mean 1373 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,200 Speaker 1: this stuff Jared and Chancey d from White Till Adrenaline 1374 01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,840 Speaker 1: is just it's awesome. It's hard to argue with that 1375 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:17,160 Speaker 1: when you see how it works. Yeah. Um, I don't. 1376 01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to cover everything in the book because 1377 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:21,800 Speaker 1: I want to make sure folks know there's a lot 1378 01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,040 Speaker 1: more to to cover in there, which which I think 1379 01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:27,280 Speaker 1: there is, um, But I do think it's worth wrapping 1380 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:31,840 Speaker 1: up with your final principle, which which maybe is what 1381 01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 1: I It's like, my biggest takeaway from the book in 1382 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,400 Speaker 1: general is your is your final principle and how you 1383 01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:41,160 Speaker 1: kind of wrapped it all up because it it has 1384 01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:45,600 Speaker 1: reminded me too chill the hell out on some of 1385 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,799 Speaker 1: my stuff and look at the way you have started 1386 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:50,800 Speaker 1: trimming stuff down. Can you talk a little bit about 1387 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,120 Speaker 1: this final principle and why you put it here at 1388 01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:57,479 Speaker 1: the very end while the other two at the beginning. Yeah, 1389 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean one of them. So there's I mean, there's 1390 01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 1: two reasons. There's a practical reason and then there's just 1391 01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,519 Speaker 1: a personal reason. And I guess I'll start with the 1392 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:11,439 Speaker 1: practical first. It's when you know, with the career that 1393 01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:12,920 Speaker 1: I had and the things that it's not like I 1394 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:16,080 Speaker 1: don't know a lot about a deer. I mean I 1395 01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,040 Speaker 1: can point out their glands and name some of the 1396 01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:23,040 Speaker 1: Latin stuff of them, and it's not like I don't 1397 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,800 Speaker 1: know what types of scrapes are what and why they 1398 01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:29,120 Speaker 1: use them, and you know I don't. It's not like 1399 01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,360 Speaker 1: I don't know the chemical makeup. I mean, I sent 1400 01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:36,479 Speaker 1: true story, I sent dear piss to a hospital to 1401 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:41,760 Speaker 1: have a your analysis. It's not that I don't know that. 1402 01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:46,680 Speaker 1: But we get so caught up in all of the 1403 01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:54,200 Speaker 1: like knowing everything there is to know, and we lose 1404 01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:56,760 Speaker 1: sight of the fact that knowing it doesn't help you 1405 01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:01,000 Speaker 1: kill any deer. If you're making it so convoluted and 1406 01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:05,040 Speaker 1: complex and hard to do any of You're just you're 1407 01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:08,800 Speaker 1: stuck in one spot you can have. You know, I 1408 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:10,840 Speaker 1: always look at guys who put a lot of stuff 1409 01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,880 Speaker 1: on their bow, and what I think is one of 1410 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,560 Speaker 1: the worst inventions of the history of bow hunting is 1411 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:21,320 Speaker 1: the adjustable single pin site. So you're telling me I 1412 01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: need at the deep because I think most people are 1413 01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:29,080 Speaker 1: are like me when you see a giant buck coming 1414 01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:32,240 Speaker 1: your way, that your first thought is, holy crap, it 1415 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,240 Speaker 1: might actually happen. I've waited so long and worked so 1416 01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,479 Speaker 1: hard for this, and your adrenaline is crazy, and you're shaking, 1417 01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:41,840 Speaker 1: and all of those things you're telling me. Somebody thought 1418 01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:43,479 Speaker 1: it was a good idea that at that point you 1419 01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:47,639 Speaker 1: should have to know the exact yardage to adjust your 1420 01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:51,400 Speaker 1: pin on your bow, and if you don't, you're gonna miss. 1421 01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:55,599 Speaker 1: That is what I mean, Like, we have taken something 1422 01:15:56,600 --> 01:16:02,719 Speaker 1: simple and basic and made it so mechanical that we've 1423 01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,679 Speaker 1: lost sight of it. So for me, I wasn't having 1424 01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,280 Speaker 1: trouble making decisions of where to hunt, when to hunt, 1425 01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:10,920 Speaker 1: how to hunt, even why to hunt. To be honest 1426 01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:12,920 Speaker 1: with you, and that's where some of the personal stuff 1427 01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:18,000 Speaker 1: came in. I just wanted all that stuff stripped out. Now, 1428 01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:21,439 Speaker 1: if I find scrapes, I know Bucks made it. If 1429 01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:24,479 Speaker 1: I hide a tree, stand near a path that leads 1430 01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:27,360 Speaker 1: to those scrapes, or you know, on top of the scrape, 1431 01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,320 Speaker 1: if I have to and I hunt there, pretty good 1432 01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:32,640 Speaker 1: odds I'm going to get a shot at one of 1433 01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:35,120 Speaker 1: those Bucks. I don't need to know anything else. I 1434 01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:37,000 Speaker 1: don't need to do anything else. I don't need to 1435 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,080 Speaker 1: think about anything else. It's made it more fun. I 1436 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:41,920 Speaker 1: got rid of a bunch of gear I don't I 1437 01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,360 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. It doesn't mean I'm cheap. I'll 1438 01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:47,559 Speaker 1: still spend good money on good equipment. I just have 1439 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,400 Speaker 1: way less of it. And if I don't need to 1440 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:51,360 Speaker 1: spend good money on it and it's still good, I 1441 01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:55,040 Speaker 1: don't care what brand it is. The personal side of 1442 01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,680 Speaker 1: it is a lot of that. I just didn't like 1443 01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:02,400 Speaker 1: the commercialization, and more I didn't like kind of the 1444 01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:06,080 Speaker 1: space I had put myself in and the way that 1445 01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,439 Speaker 1: I had kind of branded myself, so to speak. I 1446 01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,960 Speaker 1: didn't like any of it, and so I just decided 1447 01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,719 Speaker 1: to change it. And I don't think there's anything wrong 1448 01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:21,400 Speaker 1: with dummying things down if it makes you more successful. 1449 01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,800 Speaker 1: And just taking a lot of the crap out. I 1450 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,000 Speaker 1: still post on social media because it's fun and I 1451 01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:29,720 Speaker 1: want to see what my friends killed, and I like 1452 01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,719 Speaker 1: to see what other people killed. But I don't worry 1453 01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,160 Speaker 1: so much about the image of it. It doesn't matter. 1454 01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:40,679 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna try to shoot big deer, and I've 1455 01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:43,200 Speaker 1: the last three or four years, I've done a lot 1456 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,360 Speaker 1: better than I had done in the three or four years, 1457 01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,519 Speaker 1: and some of those dear I didn't even put a 1458 01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,920 Speaker 1: picture up of just didn't matter at that point, you know. Yeah, 1459 01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:55,280 Speaker 1: I think it's a great reminder simple works. I mean, 1460 01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:01,160 Speaker 1: I need that reminder because I'm I'm the personality type 1461 01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,760 Speaker 1: where I can overcomplicate stuff a lot and uh and 1462 01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:09,759 Speaker 1: get into that whole analysis paralysis stuff. So it's because 1463 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:12,920 Speaker 1: you're you're you have the capacity to learn. Like you 1464 01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: you're a learner and you want to learn and not. 1465 01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:18,080 Speaker 1: What I really don't want people to think is that 1466 01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:21,120 Speaker 1: dummying things down, are doing things simple means you're stupid 1467 01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:24,240 Speaker 1: or that you're not learning is I think it means 1468 01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,519 Speaker 1: you're learning better. It means you're learning that this knowledge 1469 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:34,400 Speaker 1: is useful. But the application is gotta have its place 1470 01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:40,200 Speaker 1: how do you how do you how do you translate that? Though? 1471 01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:44,639 Speaker 1: For I mean, my my instinct tells me that like, 1472 01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,439 Speaker 1: you can't get to the place that you're at where 1473 01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:53,240 Speaker 1: you can keep it simple until you have enough experience 1474 01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,759 Speaker 1: to know like what matters and what doesn't or what 1475 01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,800 Speaker 1: matters for you in your situation. Is there any other 1476 01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,320 Speaker 1: way to go about like filtering all the stuff or 1477 01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:03,760 Speaker 1: is it simply you have to put the stuff into 1478 01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:05,519 Speaker 1: practice and then figure out what the right fit is 1479 01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:09,920 Speaker 1: for you and then find that system. I think, unfortunately 1480 01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:13,080 Speaker 1: you're right, a lot of it is experience. Um, I 1481 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,479 Speaker 1: know that I couldn't and I'm still not like I'm 1482 01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:20,240 Speaker 1: I still struggle big time with those decisions, but nothing 1483 01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:22,280 Speaker 1: like I would have ten or fifteen years ago, And 1484 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,679 Speaker 1: I don't think I was ready to I didn't know enough. 1485 01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:29,360 Speaker 1: So even though it's simple, it's because the more things 1486 01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,080 Speaker 1: that you understand and learn and know, you're able to 1487 01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:34,439 Speaker 1: have more confidence that you're okay and what you're doing. 1488 01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:39,639 Speaker 1: You know, just like we talked about before, ten years ago, 1489 01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:41,479 Speaker 1: if I saw a big buck go up a treeline 1490 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,439 Speaker 1: and he was out of range, I'm down and I'm 1491 01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:47,920 Speaker 1: moving my stand now I'm thinking, if he didn't make 1492 01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,479 Speaker 1: a scrape or do something that tells me he wants 1493 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:53,960 Speaker 1: to keep returning to that tree line, there's there's no 1494 01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,200 Speaker 1: point in me doing that. His sign is here, the 1495 01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:01,840 Speaker 1: sign that he returns to is here. Just trust that. 1496 01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:05,679 Speaker 1: That's a simple way of thinking about a whole lot 1497 01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:09,559 Speaker 1: of experiences, in complex things that you've tried and done 1498 01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,479 Speaker 1: and learned from in the past. So it maybe it's 1499 01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:15,920 Speaker 1: not even just simplifying things. It's more about trusting the 1500 01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,400 Speaker 1: things that you've learned. And I think that a lot 1501 01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:21,960 Speaker 1: of people have that that issue. It's why we put 1502 01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:24,479 Speaker 1: so much stuff on our bows. That's why we, you know, 1503 01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,479 Speaker 1: realize so much on the comparison stuff on social media, 1504 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,800 Speaker 1: and we have all, you know, these fancy things. We 1505 01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:34,880 Speaker 1: don't really trust ourselves, you know, we need to have 1506 01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:38,799 Speaker 1: that aura or that image too in case we don't succeed. 1507 01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:43,559 Speaker 1: So what would this is? This is a really good 1508 01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,960 Speaker 1: place to think wrap up. What would the final what's 1509 01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:49,799 Speaker 1: your final message to folks that maybe have found themselves 1510 01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,080 Speaker 1: in that position. There's there's I'm a lot I'm sure 1511 01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:53,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of folks out there right now who 1512 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,080 Speaker 1: are in that who have gotten really excited about this 1513 01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:00,479 Speaker 1: deer hunting thing with Delvin head first who really like it, 1514 01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:04,880 Speaker 1: but also maybe aren't quite comfortable in their own skin 1515 01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,000 Speaker 1: yet as far as what they're doing, how they're doing it, 1516 01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:11,559 Speaker 1: what they're doing looks like compared to everybody else. Um, 1517 01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:13,320 Speaker 1: you've kind of been through the ring or you've come 1518 01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,479 Speaker 1: out the other side and you're in a different place 1519 01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,040 Speaker 1: now that maybe you were ten years ago. What's the 1520 01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:22,320 Speaker 1: final parting words before we wrap this up. There's not 1521 01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,160 Speaker 1: the things that we tend to focus on so much 1522 01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:30,160 Speaker 1: don't matter. There's not a lot of things that do. 1523 01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: You know. Um, if you enjoy what you're doing and 1524 01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,439 Speaker 1: you think eventually you can be successful at it, then 1525 01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:42,799 Speaker 1: keep doing it. That way. The things that you're seeing 1526 01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:46,599 Speaker 1: in a lot of you know, media outlets, it's not 1527 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:50,360 Speaker 1: your situation. It's not a situation that you can duplicate 1528 01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:54,840 Speaker 1: or replicate, so it it doesn't matter so much. Um, 1529 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:59,200 Speaker 1: just if you're making mistakes and you're never killing anything, 1530 01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,479 Speaker 1: you gotta ask yourself why and is it something that 1531 01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing that I can change and then change it. 1532 01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:09,280 Speaker 1: But don't change just for the sake of changing. You 1533 01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:11,320 Speaker 1: have to have you have to be able to think 1534 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,280 Speaker 1: through the decisions that you're making, and don't make it 1535 01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,600 Speaker 1: harder than it is. If there's a scrape and a 1536 01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,439 Speaker 1: deer trail and some buck rubs because bucks went through there, 1537 01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,360 Speaker 1: So if you spend some time there, probably can't see 1538 01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:25,519 Speaker 1: another buck that you can shoot. It doesn't have to 1539 01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:28,639 Speaker 1: be any harder than that. And and to shoot him 1540 01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:33,080 Speaker 1: in the lungs and you'd be good. Wise words right there, Tony, 1541 01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:36,400 Speaker 1: I would recommend folks go out and pick up your 1542 01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:39,920 Speaker 1: book right now. I really enjoyed it. It it's a 1543 01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:41,800 Speaker 1: breath of fresh air I think in a lot of 1544 01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,800 Speaker 1: ways from from other things out there. And uh, if 1545 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,040 Speaker 1: anyone who listens conversation, I think we'll have a good 1546 01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,800 Speaker 1: sense of of how that's the case. Uh where can 1547 01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:52,760 Speaker 1: people find the book? Where should they go by this? 1548 01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,000 Speaker 1: It's just on Amazon. Like I said, I just self 1549 01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:59,120 Speaker 1: published it. I honestly never even really intended for it 1550 01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:01,599 Speaker 1: to sell anything. Amazon was just an easy way for 1551 01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:05,400 Speaker 1: me to get twenty copies for myself. So um, it's 1552 01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:07,439 Speaker 1: you just will go to Amazon and you can google 1553 01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,960 Speaker 1: my name or likeas manifesto and that should or search 1554 01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,600 Speaker 1: not Google, but on Amazon and search it and it 1555 01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:18,639 Speaker 1: should pop up there perfect well. I enjoyed it, Tony, 1556 01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:21,800 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you, thanks for writing this, 1557 01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:24,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to talk about too. No 1558 01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:28,000 Speaker 1: problem at all anytime. All right, And that's a rap. 1559 01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:32,800 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, Tony Hanson's book and Antler Geek's manifesto, 1560 01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:34,920 Speaker 1: pick it up, give it a read. It's it's a 1561 01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:37,640 Speaker 1: quick read, but it's worth it. I enjoyed it. I 1562 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,040 Speaker 1: think if you heard our conversation today here, you're gonna 1563 01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:43,200 Speaker 1: understand why. So head on over to Amazon, pick up 1564 01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:47,240 Speaker 1: a copy, and then get to work. So until next time, 1565 01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:49,640 Speaker 1: thank you all for tuning in. Thanks for being a 1566 01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,679 Speaker 1: part of this community. I appreciate it. I think that 1567 01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,920 Speaker 1: uh man, the Wired to Hunt audience, you guys and 1568 01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:00,200 Speaker 1: gals are You're my kind of people, and I'm lad 1569 01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,120 Speaker 1: that we can spend a little time every week chatting 1570 01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,720 Speaker 1: and geeking out on deer and deer hunting. Because there's 1571 01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:07,040 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff out there in the world it's 1572 01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:09,559 Speaker 1: kind of lousy, but this is one of those things 1573 01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,639 Speaker 1: that is not. This is just some good stuff, and 1574 01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:17,080 Speaker 1: thank goodness for that. So until next time, thank you, 1575 01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:20,080 Speaker 1: and stay wired to heart,