WEBVTT - Invisible Storm of PTSD 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:18.239 Jen Kirkman. Hi, I'm Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:23.200 of Anxiety Bites. My guest today is Jason Kander, who 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:28.000 will be telling us about his battle with PTSD that 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:32.400 he eventually did get helpful, very much so in the 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.320 public eye. But I will say that you do not 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.080 need to have experienced PTSD. You do not need to 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:43.520 be a war veteran in order to relate to this episode. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.640 One of the bigger takeaways from this episode, one of 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:51.040 the overall themes of not only this episode, but um 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:58.400 Jason's message is that anybody with any kind of anxiety disorder, depression, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:04.760 anxiety moment in your life. Stress can relate two not 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.360 fully being aware what the symptoms are, thinking that it'll 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.800 just go away, and thinking that you have to have 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:16.479 something really bad in order for it to wererant getting 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.600 any help. You know, you think, well, this person hasn't 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:20.800 much worse than me. They've had a harder life than me, 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:22.960 So who am I to think that I need to 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.280 get help? That's a luxury. That none of that is true, 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:27.880 and that the longer we wait to get help with 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.080 whatever we need help with the symptoms start to morphin change. 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.119 We almost convince ourselves that we're getting better even though 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.160 we're getting worse. But we're getting worse in different ways. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:38.880 So maybe it's not the thing I thought I had. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:45.600 It's so much easier to get help sooner now. In 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.240 terms of having PTSD, you don't need to have been 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.800 in hand to hand combat if you were, uh, you know, deployed, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.320 if you served in the military. As Jason will tell 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.400 us in his story, it was the high stress and 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:06.480 life or death undercurrent that ran under every intelligence meeting 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.240 he had during his four month deployment in Afghanistan. You know, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.840 a big through line in Jason's book that just came 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.240 out is that feeling of like all you know is 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.800 he self deprecatingly says, I just went to meetings for 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.840 four months in Afghanistan? How could I have PTSD? Because 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.680 he didn't really understand what it was, and he didn't 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:30.799 fully understand that. When you train to serve in the military, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.800 your brain is trained to stay alive. But when you 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.760 leave the service and it's time to re orient back 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.920 into civilian life, there's not a lot of help to 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.840 help people's brains get out of that survival mode and 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.480 it still lives in our body, and so there are 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.960 ways in which you know Jason was still living that 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.040 was not conducive to having a wife and kids. You know, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.119 to be constantly on high alert, thinking that your kids 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:00.840 shouldn't be in front of the window, and we can't 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:02.800 have our back facing the door because someone could come in. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.640 And if we're out of stoplight, we got to just 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.600 blow through it because you know our car could get 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.359 blown up. You know, to really feel in your body 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.840 that those things could be happening and be unable to 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.400 stop responding in that way in your day to day 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.600 life can be very, very disruptive, to say nothing of 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.960 the nightmares and night terrors and sleep paralysis and insomnia, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.720 and especially when he was still serving as a politician, 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:29.760 you have to take red eye flights to save time, 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.520 but his body was still in a different mode and 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.600 he couldn't fall asleep in front of strangers, and so 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.800 there'd be no sleep on the red eye flights. You see, 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.800 how these don't sound like your typical symptoms that we 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.160 see in movies where somebody is having a literal flashback, 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.320 where the wars flashing before their eyes is there, you know, 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:49.840 walking down the street talking to themselves. That is something 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:54.160 that can happen. But there's also just the very I 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.440 hate to say, Monday, but the the irregular symptoms of 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.880 PTSD that are absolutely crippling, destructive to your life, and 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.080 as it did with Jason, lead to such depression that 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.000 it led to suicidal ideation and that's when he decided 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.080 to get help. But you don't have to wait until 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.240 it gets to so I will let Jason tell his 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:21.800 own story. But um, just to let you know what's 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:26.400 going on with Jason right now. He is currently out 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.680 promoting his new memoir that just came out Invisible Storm, 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.920 a soldiers Memoir of politics and PTSD, and all of 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.560 his personal royalties are going to fight veteran suicide and 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:44.120 veteran homelessness at vc P headquarters, which is the Veterans 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.800 Community Project, which is a nonprofit that serves homeless and 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:52.000 at risk veterans with tiny homes, wrap around support services, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:57.320 and emergency assistance. So a little more about Jason before 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.440 we get into chatting with him. Jason and was the 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.080 member of the Missouri House of Representatives in the forty 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.600 four district from two thousand nine He was also the 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:16.360 thirty ninth Secretary of State of Missouri from seventeen when 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.839 he left public life to get help for his PTSD. 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.320 He was in the middle of launching a bid to 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.760 run for mayor of Kansas City, and as he says 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.200 in his Twitter bio, he sort of ran for president UM. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.760 He was exploring a presidential run in twenty twenty. He 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.800 even had a ninety minute meeting with Barack Obama, who 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.240 called him a Democratic star in the future of the party. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:43.960 But again he needed to get help first. So these 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.680 days UM Jason has had a bit of a career change. 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:54.240 So right now Jason is working full time with this 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.440 nonprofit organization which he is the president of UM, the 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.400 Veterans Community Project. And I'm also always very interested in 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.719 people who have a passion for something that helps others 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.600 and they make a complete life change. I always think 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.039 that's very inspiring. You know, we can change gears at 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.720 any time, you know, how do we identify ourselves? UM, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.360 I just find that all very inspiring. So anyway, this 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.320 is also a great episode if you just want to hear, 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.919 you know, maybe what it's like to sit in in 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:33.279 a intelligence meeting in Afghanistan during the height of a war, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.600 when you don't know if the politician you're meeting with 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.000 is secretly corrupt, if they're meeting with you because they 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.880 want to kill you. And it's it's his book is 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.080 so thrilling. I do blame him for this one night 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.920 of insomnia I had because I couldn't put the book down, 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.320 and I think I read it until three in the morning, 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.800 even though UM, I had to get up at seven 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:56.640 in the morning the next day. But that's okay, you 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:03.360 know what, I will blame myself. So uh, last link, UM, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.160 if you want to listen to Jason's podcast, it's called 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.520 Majority fifty four. I'll put the link in the show notes. 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.000 I'll put the link in the show notes to that 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.360 to his book and UM as well to the Veterans 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:21.600 Community Project. And I think that's it. Just enjoy our conversation. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.160 And again, UM, you don't need PTSD to enjoy it, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.480 and you don't need to be a Democrat to enjoy it. 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:37.600 So here we go my talk with Jason Candor. Jason Candor, 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.280 I am honored and delighted that you are taking the 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.240 time to do my podcast on your book tour. Thank 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.360 you I'm honored and delighted. Uh in return, thank you 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.000 for having me. Yeah, of course your book, Invisible Stormy Soldiers, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.640 Memoir of Politics and PTSD. I'm holding it up even 0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:00.120 though it's not a video interview, is a page or 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:06.000 in our It is compelling, It's got all the emotions 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:07.720 in it. But really, at the end of the day, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.320 I know it's about your journey with PTSD, but besides that, 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.400 it is a page turner. I did not sleep one night. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.240 I just stayed up as late as I could. I 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.600 gamed out. Okay, what's the least amount of sleep I 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.320 can get in function tomorrow because I need to keep reading. Um, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.320 so that's your fault because it wasn't functioning that well 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.360 the next day. Sorry, but also very pleased to hear that. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.640 Before we get into your story, I only have one 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.400 critique of your book, and I just want to get 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.880 it out of the way. Is you mentioned that you're 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.800 really good at taking care of blisters and then you 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.120 never tell us how And I'm a I'm living in 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.240 New York, I'm walking, my feet are torn up. Can 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.760 you give us the secret? As a soldier, how do 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.600 we deal with blisters on our feet? And then we'll 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:58.760 move into the serious stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, God, I've lost 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.760 the name. What's the stuff called mole skin? You know? Um, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:03.400 the stuff you can so you can buy it like 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.320 any pharmacy pretty much. It's just a little how do 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.720 you describe it? It's it's like this little foam, uh 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.560 that is that's soft and a little furry. And what 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:14.960 you do and this is the key. So a lot 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:16.400 of people know about the mole skin thing, but what 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.480 I learned in the army is the donut trick. So 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.600 what you do is, let's say, you know, whatever, the 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.280 size of the blister is. The mistake most people make 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.800 is they'll put the mole skin over the blister, which 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.080 means the adhesive is touching the blister. That's not what 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.240 you do. What you do is is you cut a 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.280 big donut, okay, a big donut that's big enough to 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.160 go around the blister, and then you save the donut 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.920 hole and so you you put the adhesive of the 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.640 doughnut onto your foot to surround the blister. And then 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.560 you take like a bandage and you're gonna put a 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.800 bandage around that part of your foot to hold it 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.360 all in place. But you take the donut hole and 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.040 you stick that to the bandage, so that what's happening 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.760 is that furry soft material is UH is holding the 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.160 lister in place to keep it from popping UH, instead 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.760 of having an adhesive on the blister. And then what 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.080 you want to do is you want to change your 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.959 socks frequently, because the blisters require two things to exist, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.920 and they are friction and moisture. And so if you 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.960 can avoid friction and moisture, you can avoid blisters. But 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.320 I haven't given that explanation in a while. So I'm 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.959 so excited I'm going to be walking around like I'm 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.240 in combat when I'm really just walking, um, five to 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.079 ten miles a day. Thank you just needed good pair 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.480 of scissors and some mole skin and maybe some medical 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.240 tape in your set. So you were running for mayor 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.439 of Kansas City. I remember you dropping out saying you're 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:43.559 going to get help for PTSD, and I remember that 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:49.199 really hitting me and thinking that this is so great. Yeah. So, UM. 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:51.160 The device I used in the book is I kind 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.120 of start at the middle of the story and then 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.480 take you back to the beginning, and then in the 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:55.800 middle of the book you get back to the middle 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.560 of the story. And the middle of the story really 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.079 is my first day at the v A. And so 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.080 I walk in, and you know, to give a little 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.600 context to this, what predates the months before this is first, 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.880 I'm getting ready to run for president, and I know 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:11.920 something is wrong with me, but I'm not willing to 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.040 admit to myself that it's PTSD. And so this big, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.880 you know, brilliant solution, brilliant in quotes that I come 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.680 up with is I'm gonna go home run for mayor 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.480 because I think, well, you know, being in charge of 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.840 my hometown, that's gonna fill me up and make me 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:26.800 feel good. But then the other promise I made to 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.199 myself was I'm gonna go to the v A. Well, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.600 I kept half the promise. I started running from Ayor 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.080 was going great. Uh, you know, to be fair, if 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:35.800 you're going to run for president, you decided to run 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:37.920 from Ayir like you should be the front runner or 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.319 what the hell were you doing? Um? All right, and 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.280 but then the part about going to the v A, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.040 I didn't keep that promise to myself. And then things 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.640 just get worse and worse and worse, and now I'm 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.959 having suicidal thoughts, and it's like, all right, it's time 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:50.200 to go to the v A. So I go to 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.400 the v A and at first, like, I'm just sort 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.800 of mortified at the fact that everybody's recognizing me, because 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.000 you know, I run a lot of tv ads in Missouri, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.000 in Kansas City, and so I was very recognizable, which 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.000 usually was great. Uh, not so much when you look 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.080 like shit and you've shown up because you're suicidal and 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.600 you're at the b A. And pretty quickly I end 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.720 up in the emergency suicide hold at the v A 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.920 emergency department. And all along the way people are being 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.320 very subtle and nice about it, but I can tell 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.520 by the double takes, like, also, these folks are like, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.800 that's Jason Candor. And now I'm in like four times 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.360 two big scrubs that they've given me because they've taken away, 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.440 you know, all of my belongings, my clothes, everything. And 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.200 I'm sitting there and waiting for this psych residant to 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.720 come in and see me. And he comes in and 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.720 I at first, I'm like relieved that this dude is 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.160 from out of town and has no idea who I am. 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.040 And we talked for like a half hour and I 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.720 he's the first person that I really other than my wife, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.840 like told all of the problems I've been having. You know, 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.400 that I had gone eleven years without a good night's sleep, 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.160 that I had these terrible night terrors, and that I 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.760 was paranoid by danger to my family and myself all 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.240 the time, that I felt angry and shame and self 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.160 loathing and all these things, and uh, and that I 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.679 had been over the last several months very depressed and 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.520 was now having these suicidal thoughts. And so he talks 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.440 to me for about a half hour, and eventually, I 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.280 think because I said that I had to go pick 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.760 up my son at four thirty, he, I think he 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.240 was like, Okay, future plans, He's not gonna kill himself today, 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.360 so he's gonna let me go. And he asked me, 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.600 he says, by the way, do you have like a 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.880 particularly stressful job or something. And I was like, well, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.920 I'm in politics, and he's like, what does that mean? 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.720 So I explained, you know, my background, and then he's like, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.440 has it been like particularly stressful lately? And I said, well, yeah, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.200 I mean I was gonna run for president, and then 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.840 I decided to run for mayor. Uh, and then you know, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:48.960 now I'm just going to call that off tomorrow because 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.480 I want to get help. And he's like, wait, president 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.680 of what. And keep in mind, like I'm a thirty 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.760 seven year old dude in the suicide psychold and clothes 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:00.600 that don't fit because they just given to me. And 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.360 I'm like sitting there wrapping my arms around my my 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.040 knees and and I'm like, well of the United States, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:11.040 and which felt silly, and he's and he's like, what 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.920 does that mean? And I'm like, well, you know, I 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.640 was going to Iowa and New Hampshire a lot that 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.920 kind of thing. And he's just like, okay, who told you? 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.080 He goes who told you could run for president of 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.240 the United States? And now I've gone from like relieve 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.640 that this guy didn't recognize me to like irritated that 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.760 he doesn't believe me. And so I'm like, I don't 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.320 know what to tell you. Man. I spent an hour 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.240 and a half just me and Obama in his office, 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.120 and he seemed to think it was a pretty good idea. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.520 And he pauses for a second, thanks about it, and 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.400 then he's like, so how often would you say you 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.920 hear voices and uh, yeah, so that was my first 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:56.800 day at the v A. We'll be right back. Well, 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:03.360 let's start with, so you deployed to Afghanistan. Um, tell 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.880 us where you are, how longer they are for and 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.400 then I'll ask you a bunch of questions about your 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:12.560 you know, your work there and what your thought process 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.040 had to be as a soldier. Sure. Um. So part 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:17.600 of the reason that it took me so long to 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.800 admit that my experience could be traumatic is that I 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.600 my tour was only four months and that bothered me 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.120 for years, to the point where I actually tried to 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.920 go back and was denied. Um. And you know, because 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.520 I have a lot of friends who, you know, they 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.360 did multiple tours of like nine months at a time 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.680 or more, and there were people who were there when 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.840 I got there, who were still there when I left, 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.920 and it just that really bothered me, and it made 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.960 me tell myself this fiction that oh, well, I can't 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.640 have PTSD from a four month tour. Um. But I 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.640 was based out of Cobble. I was an Army intelligence 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.200 officer and my job, the simplest way to put it, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:55.960 was that it was my job to figure out which 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.200 bad guys were pretending to be good guys within the 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.280 Afghan government, and in order to do that, I had 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.520 to go meet those guys. Uh. And so that's what 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.120 I did for for four months, oh six to oh seven, 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.240 like fall to the to the spring in the early spring, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.280 early winter, whatever you call it. Yeah. And and it's 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.880 so funny because in the book you self deprecate and 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.720 joke that, you know, when you were before you had 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.200 your recovery. You're like, I just went to meetings for 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.440 four months, Why do I have PTSD? And it's like, okay, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.520 you say that, but then these stories you have, I mean, 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.800 my heart was racing reading and it was part of me. 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:32.760 This is where I think it's interesting for those out 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.000 there who don't have PTSD, have been in a war zone. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.480 A lot of your um symptoms are very similar to 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.400 people with you know, just generalized anxiety or a d 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.920 h D or panic disorder. But what I found exciting 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.080 as someone with a d h D who needs a 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.520 lot of dopamine and my brain is, uh, it needs 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.960 a lot of regulation, it needs a lot of structure. 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:01.280 I understand completely, except for the carrying a gun and 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:02.920 shooting a part, which I know I'd be bad at 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.120 I understand completely why people want to enter the military. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.240 There are rules. You keep it simple. Um, as you 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.199 learned once you did get therapy, that your brain is 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.439 trained to survive, so you have a few thoughts and 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.919 they're meant to be repetitive so you can keep yourself safe. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.600 And that really appealed to me. I thought, in another world, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.200 I could, I could really thrive in this environment. Because 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.320 I liked your descriptions of being in the meetings. I 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.920 mean I I felt, um, wow, that seems in a 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.119 weird way. And this sounds sucked up, but you probably 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.560 get it calming because you're in a meeting and you 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.000 know what you have to do. So explain to someone 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.119 why this meeting is nothing like Larry the accountants meeting 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.280 that he's going to in five minutes after he's done 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.560 listening to this episode. What what goes on? Like? Tell 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.040 us the story? Um, and this is your most you know, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.480 this is a story that you told many times. You 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.360 told it in the book and then later we'll discuss 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.280 that you had to tell it again in therapy for 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.439 a certain reason. But what is your big story about 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.919 the meeting you went to where you had to make 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.480 a decision about whether to take a weapon. Yeah, so 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.479 first for context to this, some of what you were 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.359 saying I want to speak to because like where you're saying, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.760 you know that you relate to the sort of predictability 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.040 of it, and and you know of the work. But 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:26.920 you said, like, you know, except for the part of 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:28.959 carrying again and firing it, they give you lessons like 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.600 you would do fine, Like they teach you all that stuff. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.159 And a couple of things I wanted to do with 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.000 the book that you sort of alluded to. One it's 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.119 a soldier's memoir, but like the books about PTSD and 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.320 the politics part is that's what I did with most 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.159 of my career. So what I didn't want to do 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.200 was write a book that was like for fifty five 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.800 year old men who read combat books, which is why 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.760 there's one chapter about Afghanistan and then the rest is 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.240 just about dealing with all of it. And so but 0:18:58.320 --> 0:18:59.840 the other thing I think I had to do with 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.000 from what you said it makes me feel good that 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.080 I accomplished it is I also understand that there's a 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.080 lot of people who deal with mental health challenges who 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.040 I want to read this book, who don't read military 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.840 books and aren't interested in the military, and so I 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.760 knew that I had to relate in the chapter before 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.600 the Afghanistan chapter why the hell I joined the military 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.160 and why I liked it so much, so that people 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.200 could actually relate to my story. And so I'm glad 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.120 to hear that that got across. Um. Yeah, the the 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.280 incident that you're talking about is h I had recruited 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.359 as a as a really helpful contact to me in 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.919 my intelligence collection work, the Attorney General of Afghanistan, a 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.879 guy named sab It, and I really liked working with 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.280 Sabbat for a couple of reasons. Were really a couple 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.360 of characteristics of him. One, he spoke like perfect English, 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.199 which made it really easy. And too, he had no 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.360 discernible incentive to help anyone kidnap and kill me, which 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.280 was like really high on the list of ways to 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.919 become my friend when I was there. And and so 0:19:58.000 --> 0:19:59.919 I would have these regular meetings with him where he 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.040 would tell me all about his anti corruption work in 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.120 the Afghan government. It was really valuable, and I'd take 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.520 it back and I'd write it up. And so what 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.520 started happening was other people in the intelligence community, uh 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.359 got wind of this because they'd read my reports and 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.399 they had questions that they wanted to ask sab It, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:17.520 So they would ask to tag along to these meetings. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.399 And sab It, you know, he's a politician, he as 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.440 a performer. He liked having an audience, so I could 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.000 bring a few people with me. And on this one occasion, uh, 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.720 these guys from the d i A, the Defense Intelligence Agency, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.840 said Hey, can we come along with you on on 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.080 a SABBIT meeting? And I was like sure, And you know, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.920 I was a green second lieutenant that's the first officer rank, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.480 like just brand new guy, and I'm I'm still have 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.480 a little bit of imposter syndrome about the fact that 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.640 I'm in this, you know, really who a high speed job. 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.639 That's usually for somebody with a lot more experience and 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:47.879 rank than me. So I see these guys from a 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.960 three letter agency and I'm feeling like when these guys 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:51.359 know what they're doing, like, I'm I don't want to 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.359 look like a fool or on these fellas. So we 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.000 pull up to the usual compound where I go to 0:20:56.000 --> 0:21:00.320 to meet sab It, and these three like Goon come 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.719 out with a K forty seven at the low already 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:05.679 and they're in border police uniforms, which was weird because 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.639 Sabad had his own security detail and it wasn't border police. 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.399 And they start barking at us, and they tell us 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.600