1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Toad and this 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Okay, So Mike, 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: I desperately need to talk about what's going on with 5 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the Goodreads review bombing story. Honestly, this is like probably 6 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: one of the more wild stories I've heard in a 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: very long time. And if I'm saying that somebody who 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: covers weird, wild stories on the Internet, if I'm saying this, 9 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: you know it's truly wild. 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: We were going to do this in this week's news. 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: Roundup, but honestly, I had so much to say about 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: it that I decided it needed to be its own thing. 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: That's because it really involves a lot of stuff that 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: I spend a ton of time thinking and talking about. 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: First of all, book communities online. I don't know how 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: tapped in you are to like online book communities like 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: book Talk or books to Graham, but the drama is 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: always very deep when it's online book drama. Like people 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: who are voracious readers and connect about it on the Internet, 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: their drama is very deep. I consider myself part of 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: that community, by the way, So this is I can 22 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: say that because I'm one of them. 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: Okay, this is good context. I have. You often tell 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 3: me about very intense internet drama, and it often involves 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: book clubs. I didn't so I didn't realize that this 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 3: was like a particularly common thing of book communities. But 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: it makes sense. 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So that's part of why I'm so interested 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: in this. But there's also issues of how platforms impact 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: marginalized people, like a lot of issues mixed up with 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: what it means to be a creative professional in this 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: day and age, and how the internet experience has sort 33 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: of complicated that, and also good old fashioned jealousy, something 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: I know quite a bit about. So there's a lot 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: going on here, so let's get into it. So this 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: story really all starts with an author named Kate Corian. 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: She's an author who had a highly anticipated book coming 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: out called The Crown of Starlight, which was meant to 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: be out in May of twenty twenty four. I also 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: read that she might have had like this book deal 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: and then like a subscription box deal from this book, 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: and then like maybe even like a film publishing deal 43 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: on the table. So Kate is a writer who had 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: a lot of positive things going on, like she was 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: really doing the damn thing very successful. But now Kate's 46 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: book has been shelved after she admitted using Goodreads to 47 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: review bomb a bunch of forthcoming books mostly by black, 48 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: Asian and queer authors. 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: Kate is white. 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: It sounds like this had been going on for kind 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: of a while and that it was something that the 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: writing community was aware of and like knew what was happening, 53 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: but was up until this point kind of hoping to 54 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: deal with privately. 55 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 3: They knew that She's in particular was doing it, or 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 3: just that it was like a general problem in their community. 57 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so great question. I would say both. I think 58 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: that writers knew that this specific writer, Kate, was doing this, 59 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: and I think that writers were generally aware that good 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: Reads and good Reads bombing, like like submitting tons and 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: tons of bad reviews for a book even if you 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: haven't read it, is an ongoing problem in the space. 63 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: So I think I would say both if I had 64 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: to say so. The first time that this came on 65 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: my radar was when Canadian author Saran jays Wow first 66 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: tweeted about it, and that's when it really got more 67 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: wide attention online. So they first noticed that Kate's book 68 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: Crown of Starlight was getting good reviews from the same 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: accounts that were also trashing other books. Some of those 70 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: books were not even out yet, so Zerin tweeted, if you, 71 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: as a debut author, are going to make a bunch 72 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: of fake goodbeats accounts one star bombing fellow debuts that 73 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: you're threatened by, can you at least not make it 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: so obvious by uploading your own book on a bajillion 75 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: different lists with those same accounts. So they then posted 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: a thirty one page Google document, which we'll link to 77 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: in the show notes of receipts screenshots showing the good 78 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: Reads activity of a number of accounts with user names, 79 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: including names like chantal b and O C. Young that 80 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: they suspected were actually Kate leaving good reviews for her 81 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: own book and bad reviews for other people's debut books. 82 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: So the books that she left bad reviews for were 83 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: mostly written by people of color, including So Let Them 84 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: Learn by Camilla Cole, which was meant to be released 85 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: in January of next year, and To Gaze Upon Wicked 86 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: Guds by Molly X Chang, whose book is actually being 87 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: put out by the same publisher del Rey as Kate's book. 88 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: So this is the same like trashing a fellow writer 89 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: whose book is being published by the same company. Pretty bad, But. 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: It's also like not surprising at all, right that like 91 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: this sort of petty jealousy would be happening within a 92 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: single publishing house. I bet these women know each other, 93 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: and have you been in the same circles for a while. 94 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Notably, the authors of these books say that in some 95 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: cases their books weren't even available yet, they hadn't been published, 96 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: and in some cases they had not even sent out 97 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: like advanced copies or galley So like, how could someone 98 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: be reviewing it if there's like there's no way to 99 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: actually read the book, it's not out yet, they have 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: not sent out any kind of advanced copies. How is 101 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: someone leaving bad reviews already on Goodreads? Something else to 102 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: note here is that these reviews are not just negative. 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: In some cases, they're like down right mean. In one review, 104 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: Kate writes, I can't believe Dell race but half a 105 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: million dollars on this when they could have spent half 106 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: a million dollars on anything else. Sorry, not sorry, Like 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 1: that's not even that, that's just like a mean review. 108 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: You don't deserve the money that you were paid to 109 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: write this book, and literally anything else would have been 110 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: a better way to spend that money. 111 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: That it's not a. 112 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: Criticism of the book or the text, it is like 113 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: just a mean insult. 114 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just drips with that same petty jealousy, 115 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 3: like they could have spent it on anything else, like 116 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 3: one of my books. Yes, that should have that money 117 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 3: should have been my money. 118 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: Hold that thought because yes, a million times yet, and 119 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: that's going to come up very soon. So we also 120 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: need to talk about the fact that there is a 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: very real, like identity aspect to this, like a very 122 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: real racial aspect to this. 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: I want to come back to that in just a moment. 124 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: But some of the names that Kate chose are clearly 125 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: meant to sell like they could belong to people of color. 126 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: Names like oh Cee Young were some of the fake 127 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: names that Kate used to leave me in reviews on 128 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: other people's work. And then like using a fake name 129 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: that is clearly meant to sound like it is the 130 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: fake name of a person of color to trash authors 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: of color while also praising her own work as a 132 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: white woman. 133 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: Is like so diabolically like messed up. 134 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: That's just so, that's like there's layers to how fucked 135 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: up that is so. 136 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: Using the fake name O. C. 137 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: Young Kate left this review on her own book, I 138 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: love this book so much that I regret reading it 139 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: because now nothing on my to be read sounds as 140 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: interesting by comparison, So like, clearly that's not just hyping 141 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: up her own book, it is a way to trash 142 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: other authors of color in the process. Zal, that Canadian 143 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: author who was the first person that I saw tweeting 144 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: about this, really summed it up. They say, there's something 145 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: extra despicable about using clearly people of color names in 146 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: fake accounts to upvote every negative review on people of 147 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: color books, So the top ones are all one and 148 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: two star, like what in the Yellow Face. What's also 149 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: funny about that is that if anybody has read the 150 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: novel Yellow Face, which was probably one of my favorite 151 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: novels of this year, it's like a plot point from 152 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: that novel of a white writer being kind of like 153 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: pretending to be a person of color because they are 154 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: so jealous of writers of color. It's so interesting how 155 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: this whole situation mirrors the plot line of a very 156 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: popular novel that everybody should read it with the best 157 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: novel where I read this year. So this is already 158 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: like a really awful messed up thing to have done. 159 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: But when Kate was called out on it, rather than 160 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: just messing up and coming clean and being like, yep, 161 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: I did this, jealousy got the better of me. She 162 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: made things so much worse by inventing a fake friend 163 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: to take the fall. So a bunch of these debut authors, 164 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: including authors whose books were targeted by Kate, were all 165 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: in a slack channel for debut writers, and of course 166 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: they were discussing what happened and starting to suspect Kate. 167 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: Meredith Mooring, who it sounds like was friends with Kate, 168 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: told them all like, oh, listen, Kate did not do this. 169 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: She could not have done this, and Kate has proof 170 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: that she didn't do this. It was a friend of 171 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: hers who did this. Meredith told the writers in this 172 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: debut writer slack channel, hold tight, Kate will pop in 173 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: to explain. And eventually Kate does pop into this slack channel, 174 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: explains she writes, I did not capital letters review bomb anyone. 175 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,479 Speaker 2: I did not positively review. 176 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: My own book with false accounts, So basically this is 177 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: Kate's explanation. 178 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: She says that somebody. 179 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: Named Lily in the Ray Low fandom community, which is 180 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: a particularly like dedicated on online fan community that centers 181 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: on the romantic relationship between two Star Wars characters, Ray 182 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: and Kylo Wren. And she said that this person Lily, 183 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: she had met this person through this like particularly dedicated 184 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: online fan base, and that in this fan base, you 185 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: like would she would like pick up people like this 186 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: who were just like very very dedicated, and that that 187 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: was the person who was behind these reviews. This person 188 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: Lily was just like a friend of hers, believed so 189 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: much in her writing, wanted to make her writing a success, 190 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: and that's why she was She was the one who 191 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: was behind these reviews. Kate wrote in the slack channel. 192 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: This person is someone I knew from a time in 193 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: Star Wars fandom, where I was a well known fan 194 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: fiction author and a lightning rod for unhinged behavior, the 195 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: type of behavior that anyone else who was well known 196 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: in the fandom at the time still sees online. 197 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: I have no further details. I haven't heard anything else 198 00:10:59,040 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: from them. 199 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: I never responded, so I gotta give a you know 200 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: how we usually do like warnings when we're gonna talk 201 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: about something that is like really bad on the podcast. 202 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: I have to give a cringe alert for this because, 203 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, is it cringey. 204 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: So the proof in quotes that Kate shares that. 205 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: She didn't do this and that Lily did is these 206 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: screenshots of faked back and forth conversations between Kate and Lily. Mike, 207 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: are you down to do a dramatic reading of these 208 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: conversations with me? 209 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? Should I be Kate or should I be Lily? 210 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: You be Lily, I'll be Kate. 211 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: Okay. It seems like the reviews were positive, but I 212 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: didn't do anything. Question Mark Reading books high is against 213 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 3: the rules question mark no. 214 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: But making fake accounts to rate them high is. It's 215 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: artificially inflating a book's reviews. That's against the rules. 216 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 3: Grimacing emoji. Oh, I didn't realize you could get in trouble. 217 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:13,239 Speaker 3: What please don't get mad. I made a couple accounts. 218 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: I think that was me? 219 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: What? 220 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: Why? 221 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: The other night you were worrying that your book would 222 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: get overshown by bigger books at your publisher. I wanted 223 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 3: to help, so I made a couple accounts to rate 224 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 3: your book high. I'm sorry. I really didn't think it 225 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 3: would be a problem. 226 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: What the fuck Why I don't need fake reviews to 227 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: help me? 228 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, I'm sorry. I really didn't think it would 229 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: hurt exclamation point. I was trying to be nice. 230 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I don't even know what to say. 231 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: I don't need you to step in and try to 232 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: be nice with this. Do you have any idea how 233 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: patronizing that is, how humiliating Svelden correctly, how much damage 234 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: you could have done. 235 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: I'm gonna be sick, literally going to please tell. 236 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: Me that, for the love of God, you weren't actually 237 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: stupid enough to use the same accounts that you made 238 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: to boost me to bomb other people. 239 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 3: Well, I didn't think anyone would notice. 240 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm literally going to be sick. I need to email 241 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: my agent. This could literally cost me my fucking career. 242 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. This is such 243 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: a violation of my trust and of our friendship. 244 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 3: I'm so so sorry, Kate, I'm really sorry. I didn't 245 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: think it would hurt Booh, she. 246 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: Just types a bunch of letters like random letters. 247 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: How could it not hurt? Who the fuck did you 248 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:42,119 Speaker 2: go after. 249 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: It was just the books you said you were worried 250 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: would bury yours on social media? Wicked gods and faint 251 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: inked and blood. 252 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: You went after people in my imprint, in my debut group. 253 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: Do you have any. 254 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: Idea how much this could have cost me? I could 255 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: lose my deal, I could lose everything all caps. If 256 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: this is what Zarin was talking about, I'm going to 257 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: kill you all day. I've been sitting here worried that 258 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: someone was review bombing me, only to find out that 259 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't the victim of a review bombing campaign, but 260 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: instead someone I trusted and considered a friend really thought 261 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: I was so insecure and helpless that I needed you 262 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: to fuck step in and level the playing field. 263 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. I didn't think people would think it 264 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: was you. I tried to make the accounts look real. 265 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. That somehow makes 266 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: it even worse. Seriously, what the fuck, dude? I trusted you, 267 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: I told you about stuff I was insecure about, and 268 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: you literally turned right back around and pulled this shit. 269 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: You understand that we're done here, right and scene? Oh 270 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: my god? 271 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: So, first of all, I have. 272 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: To say it just sounds so fake, Like when you 273 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: read it out loud, knowing this is a conversation between 274 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: one person, like someone's faking a like someone is playing. 275 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: Both parts of this, it just sounds so fake. 276 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: There's like a long part of just straight exposition in there. 277 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: I've been sitting here worried that someone was review bombing me, 278 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: only to find out that I wasn't the victim of 279 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: a review bombing campaign, but instead someone I trusted and 280 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: considered a friend really thought I was so insecure, Like 281 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 3: nobody taught. 282 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: Nobody explains, like conveniently explains what is happening in their 283 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: life in such clear and explicit terms. It's like when 284 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: you watch a movie and the main character is like, oh, well, 285 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: a convenient explanation of what's going. 286 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: On in the plot, yeah, or like right when they've 287 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: got James Bond captured and the villain is explaining his 288 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: master plan. 289 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: So I cannot believe that this is what she published 290 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: on the Slack channel to prove in heavy quotes that 291 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: she was not the person behind this review bombing. And 292 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: I really got to give it to the authors of color, 293 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: some of who weren't even targeted, who just like cared 294 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: about this enough to stay on it. 295 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: Who really stayed on Kate. 296 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: Even after she dropped this very compelling proof to get 297 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: to the truth. So people were asking, like, can you 298 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: show us earlier conversations between you and Lily so that 299 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: we can actually verify this person exists? Like, very convenient. 300 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: That's the only conversations that you're able to show are 301 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: conversations where you're talking about this specific incident and not 302 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: any other conversations from somebody that you said that you've 303 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: had an online friendship with that was so deep that 304 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: they that it led them to do this. 305 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: Pretty weird, right. 306 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty weird. Pretty weak evidence. 307 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: Very weak evidence, Like, I honestly can't believe that she 308 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: posted this. 309 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: She's a novelist, right, Like, yeah, she's supposed to make 310 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 3: up stories that presumably sound plausible. Yeah. 311 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 2: It really. 312 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: Kind of makes you think, like, like, oh, maybe this 313 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: is why she felt like she had to do this 314 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: review bombing scheme because she didn't think she was going 315 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: to be successful on her own. Maybe if this is 316 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: the caliber of writing that she puts out, it's pretty 317 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: weak writing. 318 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at her back. 319 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: So after she released this proof, and writers were like, no, 320 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: can you give us some more proof? She eventually did 321 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: admit the truth that there was no Lily and that 322 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: she was the one who had done the review bombing. 323 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: Here is her apology slash explanation that she posted. Apology 324 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: maybe is too strong. You tell me you be the judge, 325 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: she wrote. Since June twenty twenty two, I've been fighting 326 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: a losing battle against depression, alcoholism, and substance abuse, the 327 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: full scope of which I've hidden from everyone in my 328 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: life out of shame and a misguided belief that with 329 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: the right medicine and therapy I could beat it. In 330 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: late November twenty twenty three, I started a new medication, 331 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: and on December second, twenty twenty three, I suffered a 332 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: complete psychological breakdown. During this time, I created roughly six 333 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: profiles on good Reads, and along with two profiles I 334 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: made during a similar but shorter breakdown in twenty twenty two, 335 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: I boosted the rating of my book, bombed the ratings 336 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: of several fellow debut authors, and left reviews that ranged 337 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: from kind of me to downright abusive. Two of those authors, 338 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: Molly X. Chang and Danielle Jensen, are fellow del Rey authors. 339 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: Camilla Cole and Bethany Baptiste just happened to be on 340 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: the wrong Goodreads list at the wrong time. I felt 341 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: no ill will toward any of them. It was just 342 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: my fear about how my book would be received, running 343 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: out of control. My memories of this are extremely fuzzy, 344 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: so it's possible there are a couple of other authors. 345 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: If so, I take full ownership of what I did, 346 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: and I as well. I'm sorrier that you'll ever know 347 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: there's something I can say to erase what I did 348 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: to you. When I was slapped on the wrist by 349 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: Goodreads and vague tweeted by a handful of people, I 350 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: panicked that my secret was about to get out. Rather 351 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: than taking responsibility for my actions, I tried to cover 352 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: my tracks. Still in the middle of my breakdown, I 353 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: made up the world's sloppiest chat with a non existent 354 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: friend who was supposedly to blame, sent fake apologies for 355 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: the action of said friend, which only made things worse. 356 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: I betrayed the confidence of my agent, my pub team, 357 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: my readers, my friends. I betrayed my own deeply held values. 358 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: I dragged one of my dearest friends and fellow debut 359 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: authors into the mud with me. When she came to 360 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: my defense, I'll leave her name out of this so 361 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: as not to pull her in even deeper. However, if 362 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: she wishes to come forward, I'll apologize to her publicly 363 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: as well. Let me be extremely clear, while I might 364 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: not have been sober or of sound mind during this time, 365 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: I accept responsibility for the pain and suffering I caused, 366 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: and my delay in posting this is due to the 367 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: spending the last few days offline while going through withdraw 368 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: as I sobered up enough to be brutally honest with 369 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: you and myself. I know some of you won't forgive me. 370 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: I'd recognize that you're not required to. No one ever 371 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: wants to be judged by their worst actions, so it's 372 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: not always up to us. I'll be reaching out to 373 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: everyone directly impacted, though that may take time since I'm 374 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: checking into an intensive psychiatric care and rehab facility, which 375 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: means I'll be mostly off social media as I need 376 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: to give one hundred percent of the program if I 377 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: want it to stick. All I can do going forward 378 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: is try to live my life in a way that 379 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: shows you that these are not empty words. 380 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 3: Wow, what a redemption arc for her. She was struggling 381 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: with addiction, a secret addiction that no one knew about, 382 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 3: but now she's over it. 383 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I will say this. 384 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too deep into this because, like, 385 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: she may very well be suffering from genuine mental health 386 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: and substance abuse issues. However, I really do take issue 387 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: with how she uses her mental and substance abuse issues 388 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: as a defense, Like it is the very first sentence 389 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: of this explanation, even And I just don't know that 390 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: I would agree that mental health issues or substance issues 391 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: would cause you to do something that is like so 392 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: clearly racially motivated, you know, I don't. I don't think 393 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: that is a defense. And I take issue with how 394 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: she is framing it of like, oh, I was suffering 395 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: from some kind of a mental breakdown. I know plenty 396 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: of people who suffer with addiction issues and suffer with 397 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: mental health issues, and I don't know that this is 398 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: something that I would say is a typical result of 399 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: dealing with mental or substance abuse issues. 400 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: I'll put it that way. 401 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Please, 402 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: really mean racial behavior not a typical result of dealing 403 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 3: with mental health issues. 404 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: So after all of this, Kate's agent dropped, her publisher 405 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: dropped her. 406 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: It does seem like that. 407 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: At first, her publisher, del Rey, was like, oh, we're 408 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: gonna puld her book launch. We're not going to launch 409 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: it until later, like maybe we'll launch it when the 410 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: heat dies down. But then they said recently that they 411 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: are just going to drop her permanently. 412 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 2: Her friend who. 413 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: Stuck up for her in that slack channel for debut authors, 414 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: Meredith Mooring, has publicly said that she felt lied to 415 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: and that she is you know, saying like, I'm not 416 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: going to talk to Kate ever again, that she lied 417 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: to me. 418 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 2: I don't trust her, honestly. Here is the thing. 419 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: It sounds like Kate really truly had an amazing thing going, 420 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: a well regarded book deal, a subscription, a subscription, box deal, 421 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: maybe movie rights, and she threw it all away because 422 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: of her decision to do this, Like this is on her, 423 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: Like she lost it because of her own choices. 424 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we can take her at her word that 425 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: she did this out of you know, fear of her 426 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: own success, but or you know, lack of success jealousy, 427 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 3: I guess. But even if that's true, and that's what 428 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 3: motivated her, Like doesn't remotely make it okay. And like 429 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 3: you said that, like that fear drove her to do 430 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: this thing that threw it all away. 431 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: So I absolutely want to get into that because I 432 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: do think this is a story about what happens when 433 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: you don't check some of your more destructive impulses and jealousy, 434 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: Like dealing with jealousy is certainly something I know a 435 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: little bit about. But like, yes, I agree. 436 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: So there is so much going on here. 437 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: First, I think there is a really clear platform piece 438 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: happening here. It is not surprising to me that this 439 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: is all happening on Goodreads. Good Reads, which is owned 440 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: by Amazon, does say that they have rules against review bombing. 441 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: Their rules say artificially inflating or deflating a book's ratings 442 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: or reputation violates our rules. This includes activity like creating 443 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: fake accounts to manipulate book ratings, purchasing reviews, and incentivizing votes, likes, 444 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: or other actions on Goodreads. 445 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: They have that as their policy. 446 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: However, this is far from the first time that review 447 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: bombing campaigns have happened done Goodreads, and also this is 448 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: not even the first time that they have been racially motivated. 449 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: Back in the summer, The New York Times published a 450 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: piece called how review bombing can tank a book before 451 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: it's published. In it, they described how the same things 452 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: that make good Reads work and like a platform that 453 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: people want to show up to to talk about books, 454 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, excitement and passion around books also makes it 455 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: an effective tool to sabota, and like most online attacks, 456 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: it is more marginalized people who bear the brunt of it. 457 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: The New York Times talked to Cecilia Rabbis, a black 458 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: woman and a former data scientist at Google who left 459 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: tech to write her debut novel called Everything's Fine, which 460 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: is about a young black woman working at Goldman Sex 461 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: who falls in love with a conservative white co worker 462 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: with bigoted views. Her book was the target of coordinated 463 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: review bombing campaigns. Cecilia says, it may look like a 464 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: bunch of one star reviews on Goodreads, but these are 465 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: broader campaigns of harassment. People were very keen to not 466 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: just attack the work, but to attack me as well. 467 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: Some of the reviews actually say like, I didn't read 468 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: this book, I've never read this book, but I feel 469 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: inclined to leave this review anyway, and Cecilia says that 470 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: it's not just like somebody leaving a mean review, that 471 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: this can actually impact how the book is received. She says, 472 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: I was concerned about the risk of contagion and that 473 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: readers and reviewers would dismiss the work without really engaging it. 474 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: I felt particularly vulnerable as a debut author, but also 475 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: as a black woman author. So you're probably not surprised 476 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: to hear how much Amazon has taken over the book 477 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: publishing space. We actually did an episode about it a 478 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: while back with Jane Friedman after somebody on Amazon was 479 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: selling Ai dupes of her books using her name. But 480 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: since Amazon has purchased Goodreads, Amazon has basically dominated the 481 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: book publishing space, and Goodreads is an incredibly powerful tool 482 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: for authors to get their work discovered. So review bombing 483 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: can actually have a meaningful impact on writers getting their 484 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: books read, and it can make or break whether or 485 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: not an author is able to successfully launch their work. 486 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: So on Amazon, like the Amazon Shopping apparatus, it actually 487 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: tells you if the person who is leaving a review 488 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: on Amazon has actually purchased the book or not through Amazon. 489 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: And Amazon's like shopping platform does not allow anybody to 490 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: leave reviews. 491 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 2: On books that are not yet out. 492 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: However, that is not the case on Goodreads, which leaves 493 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: it uniquely open to coordinated attacks on books that aren't 494 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: even out yet. 495 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: I don't mean books that. 496 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: Aren't out yet in the like, oh, there's a specific 497 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: release date further in the future sense. I mean books 498 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: that aren't out yet in the like this is still 499 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: an idea in the author's head sense, you know, like 500 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: George R. R. Martin's long awaited The Winds of the Winter, 501 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: which is the next installment in his Song of Fire 502 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: and Ice series, does not even have an official release date, like, 503 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: as far as we know, it has not been written. However, 504 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: that has not stopped it from amassing more than ten 505 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: eight hundred ratings and five hundred reviews on Goodreads. As 506 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: far as we know, this book is not even on paper. 507 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: It is like still in George R. R. Martin's head. 508 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 3: That's pretty wild. I wonder what its rating is. 509 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: It's four point four to h He's got four and 510 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: a half stars. 511 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 3: I can see someone doing this because they love George R. R. Martin, 512 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 3: and so they'd want to like give it a five 513 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 3: to give him a boost or something. Or you could 514 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 3: see people panning it because they really hate George or 515 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 3: Martin and giving him a one. How does it get 516 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: like foreign change who's coming in here and being like, yeah, 517 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: it'll probably be all right. 518 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: So it's a lot of people just using this space. 519 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it now. They're just like using this 520 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: space to be like when is this book coming out? 521 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: Somebody who has been. 522 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Updating their review for years. Here's the top review. I 523 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: have this plan that when this comes out in twenty fifteen, 524 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to drop my child by then age four, 525 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: at off at grandma and Grandpa's house, get myself a 526 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: hotel room, and do nothing but read this for three 527 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: days straight. 528 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: Then an update. 529 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: Alas as twenty fifteen begins to fade, I have come 530 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: to the realization that my plan will never come to frumission. 531 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: It was a good plan. I'll miss the plan maybe 532 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Update of the update twenty sixteen is half over. 533 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: At this point, I'm pretty sure when I purchase this book, 534 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: it's going to be a page that says just watch 535 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: the show, followed by six hundred blank pages. New update 536 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: it's twenty seventeen. I give up another update. It's twenty twenty, 537 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: and I returned to this hopeful snapshot of my optimistic 538 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: youth from time to time to wonder what it must 539 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: have been like to be so innocent. Alas last update, 540 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: Oh my sweet summer child, do you remember what it 541 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: was like to have such hope, such confidence? Twenty fifteen, 542 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: it was going to be your year. But as summer 543 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, phades and leaves began to fall. 544 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: It is clear that no one will be reading this 545 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: book even now, some seven years later, in twenty twenty two, 546 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: what could have been? 547 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 3: Wow, George R. Martin Lake ruining this guy's life, taking 548 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 3: away his childhood. 549 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 2: He's been leaving these reviews for years more. 550 00:29:53,040 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 551 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: So beyond this being like a tech and platform story, 552 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: I do think there is something to the fact that 553 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: Kate was review bombing and targeting marginalized writers, queer authors, 554 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: authors of color, and that these specific authors were the 555 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: ones that she was concerned were going to outshine her 556 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: own debut. I do think that there's this attitude that 557 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: people of color are like the golden children of publishing 558 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: right now last year, James Patterson, who is this ridiculously 559 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: successful writer said that older white men like him basically 560 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: cannot get writing jobs right now, saying, can you get 561 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: a job, yes? Is it harder, Yes, it's even harder 562 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: for older writers. You don't meet many fifty two year 563 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: old white males, he insisted. Now keep in mind, this 564 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: is somebody that has sold more than four hundred and 565 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: fifty million books during his storied thirty year career, where 566 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: his books have been turned into blockbuster movies. 567 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: Joyce Carol Oates, who. 568 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: I have to say, is kind of my like forever 569 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: problematic save Joyce Carol Oates. She's like the Azalea Banks 570 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: of the book industry. 571 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: Like she like. 572 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: Nine times out of ten she's super wrong, but when 573 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: she is right, she is so right. That's how I 574 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: would describe her. I cannot quit Joyce Carol Oates, she 575 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: is my forever problematic fave. Well, she said the very 576 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: same thing. 577 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: She said. 578 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: A friend who was a literary agent told me that 579 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: he cannot even get editors to read first novels by 580 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: young white male writers, no matter how good. They're just 581 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,239 Speaker 1: not interested. This is heartbreaking for writers who may in 582 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: fact be brilliant and critical of their own privilege. 583 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: So there is this attitude that the only. 584 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: People who find success in the book world are people 585 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: who are traditionally marginalized. But it's so laughably and frustratingly untrue, 586 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: and the data could not demonstrate how clearly untrue. This 587 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: is more clearly that it is white people who still 588 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: and always have been the majority of the book publishing space. 589 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: Penguin Random House did an audit where they found that 590 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: white contributors accounted for seventy six percent of books released 591 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one. Thirty four percent 592 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: of those writers were male. A twenty twenty analysis by 593 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: New York Times surveyed more than seven thousand popular novels 594 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: published by the largest publishing houses Simon and Schuster, Penguin, 595 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: Random House, Double Day, HarperCollins, and McMillan of the Book 596 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: surveyed ninety five percent of them were written by white people. 597 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen alone, non Hispanic white people wrote a 598 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: whopping eighty nine percent of the books sampled. 599 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: So it's white people. 600 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: Like white people are the ones who are dominating the 601 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: industry and always have. I do think there is this 602 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: very assistant attitude that, oh, you have to be like 603 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: a person of color or like somehow marginalized to get 604 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: a foothold in the publishing space. But that just betrays 605 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: the reality that that that like the people who are 606 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: succeeding in the space are white people. It's just is 607 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: this just the truth? 608 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, those statue just read, We're pretty overwhelming that in 609 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: that analysis of authors of the books, what were they? 610 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 3: It was the New York Times studying. Yeah, were written 611 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: by white people. That's like way over the proportion of 612 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: the population that is white. 613 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: And I also think it mirrors this conversation that's sort 614 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: of bubbling up now around does diversity and inclusion efforts. 615 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: We'll have an episode diving into some of this next 616 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: week about that wild situation happening at Harvard. But I 617 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: do think that people will sit here with a straight 618 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: face and say that they believe that black and brown 619 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: folks are being handed like cushy gigs or cushy contracts 620 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: in spaces that have mostly been dominated by white people, 621 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: when the reality is that they don't give us shit 622 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: if a black person or a brown person has wound 623 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: up in a space where there are not a lot 624 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: of black and brown people, best believe that is because 625 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: that person earned that shit. 626 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 2: They don't give us anything. 627 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: People are out here thinking that, like, oh, they're just 628 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: handing out book deals and cushy reviews and like praise 629 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: to black people. 630 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 2: I would like some of that, please. 631 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: If they're handing that out, I would love to be 632 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: the first in line that gets them, because that has 633 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: not been my experience. And even beyond the racial dynamics 634 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: at play, I think that Kate's story really is like 635 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: what you were talking about before, Mike, that it is 636 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: one of what happens when you are, as my father 637 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: used to say, when you're so busy looking at everybody 638 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: else's plate that your own food gets cold, right, Like, 639 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 1: you are so focused on the comparison game and looking 640 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: at what other people have and obsessing about it and 641 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: like really internalizing what's going on with others that you 642 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: can't even focus on what you have, which, in Kate's situation, 643 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: was a lot. Kate had a lot of success, and 644 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: she ruined that because of her own inability to stop 645 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: being jealous and stop obsessing and fantasizing about what other 646 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: people might get. 647 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, jealousy is so destructive. 648 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: It's true, And like this is the reason why I 649 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: know this like I'm speaking from experience, is that I mean, 650 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: like I have definitely had to struggle to deal with jealousy. 651 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: I wasn't handling it through review bombing my colleagues, thank god, 652 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: but you when you make something, particularly when you're in 653 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: a creative field. But I'm sure anybody who is in 654 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: any kind of feel can relate to this. You really 655 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: have to work to learn to not let things like 656 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: jealousy and comparison get to you if you're going to 657 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: make anything right like, especially right now this time of 658 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: year where all of my very very talented friends and 659 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: colleagues are making like best of lists and getting awards 660 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: and things like that, it can be hard. Like I 661 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: don't want to negate the fact that Kate probably was 662 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: dealing with very real feelings that are tough to grapple with. 663 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: I've had to do a ton of work to keep 664 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: that kind of comparison and jealousy from making me spin 665 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: out or making me like second guess my own work. 666 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: If this is something that sounds familiar, I will give you. 667 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: I will give folks a tip like the way that 668 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: I have learned to sort of reprogram jealousy in my 669 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: own mind is by kind of flipping the dynamic a 670 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: little bit and so training myself to see the winds 671 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: of people in my circle, the winds of people that 672 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: I know as my own wins, and so like when 673 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: a friend of mine gets on a best of list, 674 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: telling myself like, wow, how great for me that I 675 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: am connected to such a dynamic network of creators that 676 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: I know somebody like this, Like what a win for me? 677 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: You know, this is wow, this is somebody that maybe 678 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: I can collaborate with, Like, what a great thing for me. Like, 679 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: really seeing the wins of other people as wins for 680 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: yourself has really helped me sort of reframe the game 681 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: a little bit and like not be like salty when 682 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: someone gets something that I want, it could be helpful. 683 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 2: So that's a little tip for folks. 684 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: But I also think it's about remembering that success is 685 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: not finite. Something good happening to somebody else does not 686 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: mean that something is being taken away from you. 687 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 2: They're like, it is such a white. 688 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: Supremacist and also like patriarchal lie that there could only 689 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: be one there's only enough room for one person to 690 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: be successful. 691 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: Capitalism and white supremacy and all of. 692 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: Those other other forces want us to think that there 693 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: is only enough room for one, but that is a lie. 694 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 2: There truly is enough for all of us. 695 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: There is enough room for all of us to be 696 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: at the table, There is enough room for all of 697 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: us to be successful, for all of us to have 698 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: what we need. You do not need the voice in 699 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: your head that says that other people doing similar work 700 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: are your competitors and not your collaborators. That voice is 701 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: a liar. There is truly enough room for all of us, 702 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: and honestly, we can all be successful. We can all win. 703 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: And Kate, that's the thing is Kate really was successful. 704 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: It sounds like, but she spoiled it all. And you 705 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: know what, it wasn't authors of color who blocked her bag. 706 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 2: It was her own behavior, like it was herself in 707 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: the end. That is the main, your main hater, yourself. 708 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, what an arc to the story. 709 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 2: Huh, it's true. 710 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: So we'll add a link in the show notes to 711 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: the different authors who were impacted if you want to 712 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: get their books. 713 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 2: Show them some love. Yeah, a wild story. 714 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, remember, don't let jealousy 715 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: let you spin out and block your own bag. 716 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: You truly are enough. 717 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: Don't leave fake reviews, don't make up fake conversations with 718 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: people who don't exist. Just do your best. That's all 719 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: we can do. 720 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 3: Well, Thanks, Bridget, I really enjoyed that. That was a 721 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 3: wild story. 722 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 2: I told you it was wild. 723 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 724 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at 725 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 726 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 727 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. 728 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland 729 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 730 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,439 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 731 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 732 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: and review. 733 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts. 734 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 735 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.