1
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,039
Speaker 1: At one moment in anguish, he couldn't take it anymore.

2
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 1: He got off his horse, fell to his knees, and said,

3
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,240
Speaker 1: if what I have written is true, someone must see

4
00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 1: these calamities to an end. And he resolved right then

5
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 1: and there to do whatever necessary to bring an into slavery.

6
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.

7
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,

8
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 2: and I've been a football coach in Inner City Memphis.

9
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 2: And the last part it somehow led to an oscar

10
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,559
Speaker 2: for the film about our team. That movie's called Undefeated. Guys,

11
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 2: I believe our country's problems will never be solved by

12
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of fancy people and nice suits talking big

13
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 2: words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather

14
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 2: by an army of normal folks, us, just you and

15
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 2: me deciding, Hey, you know what, maybe I can help.

16
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 2: That's exactly what Thomas Clarkson did. His efforts led to

17
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 2: the abolition of the slave trade in Britain, and today,

18
00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,119
Speaker 2: along with Larry Reid, the author of Real Heroes, we

19
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 2: pay tribute to him as part of our special series

20
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,919
Speaker 2: Get This an Army of normal dead folks. I cannot

21
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 2: wait for you to meet Thomas Clarkson right after these

22
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 2: brief messages from our general sponsors. So the book says,

23
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: Lawrence reads. So I feel like I'm supposed to welcome

24
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,639
Speaker 2: Lawrence Ree to the show. But it's just Larry.

25
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,600
Speaker 1: That's right. I go by Larry, except unless you're from

26
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 1: the IRS, then you got to call you a work

27
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 1: I understand.

28
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the government calls your lawd that's right. Otherwise,

29
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 2: Larry flew in from Atlanta to join us and really

30
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 2: appreciate your time.

31
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 1: My pleasure.

32
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:14,640
Speaker 2: Larry Reid is the author of Real Heroes, subtitled Inspiring

33
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 2: True Stories of Courage, character and Conviction. And I got

34
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 2: to admit to you until Alex brought me the book.

35
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,920
Speaker 2: I'd never seen it, held it, touched it, read it,

36
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,640
Speaker 2: and in preparation for your visit, Larry, you know, I

37
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 2: started tooling through a few chapters and there were some

38
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 2: that Alex wanted me to specifically read, which, of course,

39
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 2: being the diligent host that I am, I do as

40
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 2: my producer tells me, and so I read those or else.

41
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 2: But what happened after reading those was I woke up

42
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 2: at five this morning and read most of the book

43
00:02:52,760 --> 00:03:00,519
Speaker 2: because I was just enthralled and every story is so interesting.

44
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 2: So let me tell the readers what this book is

45
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 2: and then we'll get into it. And actually, your book,

46
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 2: in my book, in one sense, is very similar, and

47
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 2: that each chapter is a distinct story unto itself. Yes,

48
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 2: which is how I wrote against the Grain. Certainly completely

49
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 2: different type of content. But it was my hope that

50
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 2: when reading my book, you could read a chapter, set

51
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,200
Speaker 2: it down, and come back and read another chapter in

52
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 2: a week, and that would be fine. And that is

53
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 2: what this book is. It is a book of forty chapters.

54
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 2: Each describes a hero as a real hero as the book.

55
00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 2: As the book's title would indicate, each chapter is i

56
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 2: would say, between five and eight pages, so enough that

57
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 2: you could read with your breakfast each morning. But it

58
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 2: is beautifully researched, and you can tell written Larry by

59
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:17,480
Speaker 2: you with an enormous care for the story. And most importantly,

60
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 2: while each story is really historically interesting, each tells a

61
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,479
Speaker 2: story of exactly what your subtitle says, a person with courage,

62
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:35,359
Speaker 2: character and conviction. But maybe even more importantly, each story

63
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,239
Speaker 2: is inspirational. And the reason I'm so excited about getting

64
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 2: into this with you is because our whole idea here

65
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 2: at an army of normal folks is that governments and

66
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,560
Speaker 2: big wigs are not ultimately who's going to change or

67
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,359
Speaker 2: fix what else is, but more just the average person

68
00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,400
Speaker 2: who sees an area need, employs their passion and discipline,

69
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 2: and makes extraordinary changes in the area of the world.

70
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 2: And your book is a historical iteration of forty such stories.

71
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 1: Yes, well, thank you, Bill.

72
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 2: How long did it take you to write this thing?

73
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,159
Speaker 2: And why did you write this thing?

74
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 1: Well, I'll take your second question first. I've always been

75
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 1: fascinated for as long as I can remember with uncommon

76
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,479
Speaker 1: extraordinary people. I think it goes back to something my

77
00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,840
Speaker 1: father taught me when I was a young boy, and

78
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 1: that is that commonness is nothing to aspire to. That

79
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 1: it's what is uncommon about each and every one of

80
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,480
Speaker 1: us that really we owe so much gratitude for the uncommon,

81
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 1: the uncommonly good, the uncommonly honest, the uncommonly faithful, the

82
00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,160
Speaker 1: uncommonly generous. You would never tell your child as are

83
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,600
Speaker 1: growing up, work hard and someday maybe you can become common.

84
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 1: I mean that would be a kind of child abuse.

85
00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,719
Speaker 1: You know, you want your child to grow up to

86
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: be uncommon and uncommonly good in every way. So I've

87
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 1: always had a fascination with men and women who accomplish

88
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 1: great things, but who come from humble beginnings.

89
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,559
Speaker 2: And so you mean average people.

90
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, average people, that's right. And you know, if a

91
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 1: firefighter rushes into a burning building and saves a child,

92
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 1: everybody would regard that person for that moment anyway, a hero,

93
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't take anything away from such a person.

94
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 1: But I was interested when I started writing this book

95
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,240
Speaker 1: in finding people who typically weren't well known, but whose

96
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,719
Speaker 1: stories deserve to be dusted off and re told, but

97
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,160
Speaker 1: who live not just heroic moments, but heroic lives. And

98
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,960
Speaker 1: so every one of the people in this book did

99
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 1: so much more than a momentary heroism. They were heroic

100
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,920
Speaker 1: because they had the character to be a hero. And

101
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 1: I know this is important to you. I saw Undefeated

102
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: last night and the message came through loud and clear

103
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 1: that character makes all the difference in the world. So

104
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 1: the people I'm talking about in real heroes all were

105
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 1: people of character, not in every case. From the moment

106
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: of adulthood, many of them had an epiphany many of

107
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,600
Speaker 1: them came from backgrounds quite questionable, and you might have

108
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 1: thought that that person wasn't going to go anywhere in life,

109
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 1: but they did. They made a change, They had an

110
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,040
Speaker 1: epiphany and made character a high priority, and in the result,

111
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 1: the result of that was they left the world a

112
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 1: better place.

113
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 2: And you just wanted to share those stories with everybody.

114
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 2: Is your idea that these stories as a collection become

115
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,760
Speaker 2: inspiring for other folks who were on the sidelines to engage.

116
00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 1: Exactly, I wanted people to read it and be inspired

117
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 1: them to come away saying, Wow, maybe I need to

118
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,960
Speaker 1: step up to the plate a little more often, raise

119
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: my standard of character, and maybe I can leave a

120
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: kind of mark that some of these people in this

121
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 1: book left.

122
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,400
Speaker 2: All right, Well, when writing something like this, I mean, look,

123
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,520
Speaker 2: not everybody's written a book, and I get that. When

124
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 2: I wrote my book, it took me a year and

125
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 2: a half and it was arduous checking facts, making sure

126
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,920
Speaker 2: what I was saying wasn't over the top. But so

127
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 2: much of my book is me regurgitating my own thoughts

128
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 2: and my own beliefs. Not historical values. Not historical values

129
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:51,080
Speaker 2: are wrong, were not historical accuracies. This had to have

130
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 2: been a monumental undertaking to not only tell the stories,

131
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 2: to tell them in a short format so that you

132
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,559
Speaker 2: could tell so many and to get it right. How

133
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:03,760
Speaker 2: long did this take you?

134
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 1: It took me a little over a year.

135
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 2: I can't believe that that it only took a year.

136
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 2: That to me is a short period of time for

137
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 2: this thing.

138
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 1: Well, it was many long hours of research and reading.

139
00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: I started out with a list of people that I

140
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 1: knew I wanted to write about. Some of them. Along

141
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 1: the way, I decided, well, for various reasons, maybe I

142
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,680
Speaker 1: won't include that one. But then I discovered other people

143
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: in the results as a result of my research that

144
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know of before that I wanted to cover.

145
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 1: I ended up with, I think with about sixty chapters,

146
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: and the publisher said that's about twenty too many.

147
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,720
Speaker 2: So I had enough to start your second one.

148
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 1: Well that's right, Yeah, I got a good start on

149
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 1: the second.

150
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 2: I hate I don't know the story of the twenty

151
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 2: that were left on the edit floor. I want to

152
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 2: know those two.

153
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 1: Well, there's some good ones, And even though they didn't

154
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 1: make it in the book, I think most of those

155
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 1: twenty I did write about and publish as articles which

156
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: could be chapters in the future book.

157
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 2: Got It? Got It? So a year?

158
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: What's that?

159
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:09,680
Speaker 2: So? A year?

160
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? About a year? Yeah, I had weeks away.

161
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 2: I mean, if I'd just started on this in nineteen

162
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 2: eighty seven, I'd still be writing it. I don't even

163
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,560
Speaker 2: know how you do all this work. So I want

164
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 2: to go through a few chapters. Unfortunately we don't have

165
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 2: the time to go through every chapter, but there's a

166
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 2: few that actually to be candid. Alex said, you know, Bill,

167
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 2: make sure you pay attention to these particular chapters. And

168
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 2: then I added one to his this morning that really

169
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,720
Speaker 2: got to me. And so we'll go on chronological order

170
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 2: of the ones. I just would love for you to

171
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 2: kind of tell our listeners a little more about so

172
00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 2: in no particular order, h other than chronological throughout your

173
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 2: table of contents. A moral steam engine that never quit.

174
00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 2: Thomas Clarkson. And I have to tell you never heard

175
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 2: the name before I read this this morning.

176
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know if Thomas Clarkson until maybe twenty

177
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,559
Speaker 1: years ago. Even though I knew much about the story

178
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 1: of the anti slavery movement in Britain, his name just

179
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: hadn't come up. Most people know the name of William

180
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,199
Speaker 1: Wilberforce from that period.

181
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 2: Now there's a name I've studied in I think history class.

182
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,920
Speaker 1: Or something before. Yeah, and I found.

183
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 2: Who has something to do with amazing grace.

184
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. His former pastor when Wilberforce was

185
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 1: a young man. His pastor was John Newton, who wrote amazing, amazing.

186
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, there's the you've got my sum cumulative

187
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 2: total of historical knowledge. Yeah, I did that.

188
00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 1: Well. Clarkson is important even in the estimation of William Wilberforce.

189
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 1: Historians give so much credit to Wilberforce, and he does

190
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 1: deserve a great deal for bringing an end to the

191
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:13,319
Speaker 1: slave trade and then abolishing slavery within the British Empire itself.

192
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 1: But Wilberforce himself said he couldn't have done what he

193
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,360
Speaker 1: did without the help of Thomas Clarkson. He was his

194
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,319
Speaker 1: right hand man. He was the one who inspired him.

195
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 2: Who Wilberforce was the actual parliamentarian. He was a politician

196
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 2: that got policy eventually passed into law. That's right, to

197
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 2: stop the slave trade, yes, but he would have never

198
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 2: been able to do that, I learned today had it

199
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 2: not been for mister Clarkson.

200
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Clarkson created the world's first think tank. It

201
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,840
Speaker 1: was a single issue think tank, the Society for the

202
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,400
Speaker 1: Abolition of the Slave Trade. He created that in seventeen

203
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,720
Speaker 1: eighty seven with the help of eleven other people who

204
00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 1: were all Quakers. And they needed somebody in part Parliament

205
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,200
Speaker 1: to carry a bill to abolish the trade enslaves, and

206
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 1: they thought William Wilberforce would be a good candidate, so

207
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: they famously met with him. Knew that he was sympathetic

208
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 1: to the cost, but wanted him to muster the courage

209
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 1: to actually introduce the bill, which he would do every

210
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,960
Speaker 1: year for the next twenty years until it passed. But

211
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: meantime you had Clarkson riding thirty five thousand miles on

212
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 1: horseback all over Britain, giving lectures, sermons, gathering evidence, taking testimony,

213
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 1: building a movement among the general public that would put

214
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 1: pressure on Parliament to do the right thing, and they

215
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,480
Speaker 1: ultimately prevail.

216
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, So I'm going to read something

217
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 2: that's directly from your book that when I read it, it

218
00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:01,720
Speaker 2: gave me chills. At sea in late November seventeen eighty one,

219
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,079
Speaker 2: the Captain of the British slave ship Zong did the unspeakable.

220
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 2: He ordered his crew to throw one hundred and thirty

221
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 2: three chained black Africans overboard to their deaths. He reckoned

222
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 2: that by falsely claiming the ship had run out of

223
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 2: fresh water, he could collect more for the cargo from

224
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 2: the ship's insure than he could fetch at a slave

225
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 2: auction in Jamaica. The captain and crew were found out,

226
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 2: but not one person on the Zong after was prosecuted

227
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 2: for murder. A London court ruled the matter a civil

228
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,000
Speaker 2: dispute between an insurance firm and a client. As for

229
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: the Africans, the judge declared that their drowning was just

230
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 2: as if horses were killed, which was not far removed

231
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 2: from the conventional wisdom of the time.

232
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: Shocking. Shocking, isn't it, but it was not uncommon in

233
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 1: those days, and the backstory to episode involving the ship

234
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 1: the Song was that it had an unusually long voyage.

235
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,520
Speaker 1: It didn't apprehend a sufficient number of Africans as slaves

236
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: on the first stop or two in Africa. They had

237
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,440
Speaker 1: to spend weeks stopping in several places in Africa until

238
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: they had enough to fill the ship, and what that

239
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 1: meant was that those who had been on the ship

240
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: in Chaine chains and enslaved. By the time the ship

241
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 1: left Africa for ports into West Indies, they were malnourished,

242
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: they were emaciated. And as they approached the West Indies,

243
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: the captain of the ship took inventory and realized that

244
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 1: he wouldn't get much for them. They were too sick,

245
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 1: too near death to proceed to auction. So he took

246
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 1: the sickest of them, about one hundred and twenty or so,

247
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 1: and threw them overboard and then claimed.

248
00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 2: And that just threw them overboard.

249
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 1: They were changed absolutely, And then he put in for

250
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: an insurance claim saying that, well, we had to throw

251
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 1: some of the quote cargo overboard because of the shortage

252
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 1: of water on the ship.

253
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 2: This is treating human beings no differently than a large

254
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 2: cargo ship today would treat grain that got wet. Yeah, exactly,

255
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 2: It's just a spoiled asset.

256
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,560
Speaker 1: That's right. And it had been going on for centuries.

257
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 1: Britain in the late eighteenth century was the world's biggest

258
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 1: slave trading power, but there were many nations that had

259
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: been involved in this grizzly business for centuries.

260
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 2: So what was Clarkason's background.

261
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 1: Well, he was a student when this happened, planning to

262
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: go to Cambridge hoping to become a minister in the

263
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: Anglican Church. But there was a professor at Cambridge who

264
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 1: every year would announce a topic that students could enter

265
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: an essay contest about. This was a professor who was

266
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 1: very moved by the jury and the verdict in the

267
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 1: Song case. He was appalled by nobody being prosecuted for murder,

268
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 1: so he decided to make the issue this has almost

269
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: forbade him, resolved that it is wrong for one man

270
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: to own another. Any Cambridge student could enter that contest,

271
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 1: and every year, whatever the topic was, many did because

272
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,639
Speaker 1: it carried a very coveted prize and a lot of

273
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,360
Speaker 1: notoriety for the winter. And Thomas Clarkson decided to enter

274
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: the contest. But he knew nothing about slavery. He had

275
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: never seen it in any way firsthand. But he was

276
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,440
Speaker 1: a very diligent student, and he decided that he wasn't

277
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,880
Speaker 1: going to simply write something off the top of his head.

278
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 1: He was going to try to do some research. So

279
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: he went down to the ports of Bristol and Portsmouth

280
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 1: to try to interview any crew members of slave ships

281
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,040
Speaker 1: who would talk, and some of those men did to

282
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,359
Speaker 1: have a conscience, and they told him stories of what

283
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,719
Speaker 1: they had seen at sea. And Clarkson wrote an essay

284
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 1: and came to the very powerful conclusion in it that

285
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 1: this was wrong, that this was an inhumane institution, a

286
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 1: blot on the conscience of Britain, and that it must end.

287
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,680
Speaker 1: And then after he won first prize in the essay contest,

288
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: there's a famous moment where it happened to this day

289
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: is marked along a road outside of London by an obelisk.

290
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 1: But he was on his horse, headed back to his hometown,

291
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 1: contemplating all that he had learned in the process of

292
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 1: researching this essay, and at one moment in anguish he

293
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 1: couldn't take it anymore. He got off his horse, fell

294
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 1: to his knees and said, if what I have written

295
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 1: is true, someone must see these calamities to an end.

296
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: And he resolved right then there to do whatever necessary

297
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 1: to bring an end to slavery. He wouldn't have known,

298
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: of course, that he would spend the next sixty one

299
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 1: years of his life. He set aside his planned profession

300
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 1: as an Anglican minister to devote full time to forming organizations,

301
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 1: taking testimony, spreading the word about this evil institution that

302
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 1: had been around for centuries, and he succeeded.

303
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 2: It could be argued that Thomas Clarkson was the beginning

304
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 2: of the end of slavery.

305
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, and certainly he was one of the greatest

306
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 1: humanitarians ever to live.

307
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 2: I asked, so few people even know his name?

308
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: I know, isn't that a shame? There is a reason

309
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 1: for that, and that is that even though William Wilberforce

310
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 1: credited him with immense courage and value in the campaign

311
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: against slavery, one of Wilberforce's sons wrote the first biography

312
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 1: of his father, and because he wanted to shine the

313
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 1: light entirely on his father, he virtually excluded any mention

314
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 1: of Thomas Clarkson, and historians subsequently looked to that as

315
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 1: the definitive biography of Wilberforce. So Clarkson ended up being

316
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 1: shortchanged by historians. But in more recent years his reputation

317
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: has been dusted off, and thanks in part to a

318
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 1: movie called Amazing Grace that came out about twenty years ago,

319
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 1: the name Clarkson is better known today than it was

320
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: for decades.

321
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 2: And rightly so, you know, it's interesting as I hear you.

322
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 2: We recently did a podcast about the movie coming out

323
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 2: bon Hoffer from Beature bon Hoffer. Yes. And as I

324
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: learned more and more about the Bonhoeffer story, which I

325
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 2: was only very peripherally aware of, and I started to

326
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 2: understand one of the things, one of bon Hoffer's most

327
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: important contributions was that he brought people. He awoke people

328
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: from their social slumber. And that's what I mean, That's

329
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: my words, and what I mean is I think in general,

330
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 2: people in Germany knew Hitler was bad, but you know,

331
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: things were getting okay in Germany. And I think in

332
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: general they knew that the Jewish population in Germany was

333
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: dealing with some strife, but they didn't want to ask

334
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: too many questions because it really didn't affect their life.

335
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 2: In other words, I don't think the largest population of

336
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: people in Germany were actively engaged in rounding up and

337
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: gassing Jews, but they were. Their complacency on the issue

338
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: made them complete And as I read, as I read

339
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 2: the story of Thomas Clarkson, I can't help but wonder

340
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: if there was this majority of subjects in Great Britain

341
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: who certainly knew the slave trade was going on, but

342
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 2: they weren't profiting from it, or they weren't they weren't

343
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 2: directly profiting from it, and they weren't engaged in it,

344
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 2: and it was kind of somebody else's problem, kind of

345
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: like many Germans during World War Two. And that complacency,

346
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 2: then ultimately history would show also makes them complicit in

347
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: the sin and the horror. And it took somebody like

348
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 2: Dietrich Bonhoeffer to wake them up from their complacency. And

349
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: as I read the story of Thomas Clarkson, I can't

350
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: help but wonder if his greatest contribution was just waking

351
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: up the public to the horror of what their country

352
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 2: was doing and making them face the realities of it.

353
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: Oh, very definitely. Bill. In seventeen seventy, I believe it

354
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: was there was a court order or decision in Britain

355
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: that banned slavery within Great Britain. There hadn't been much

356
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: of it within the country. British slavery took place in

357
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: the West Indies for the most part, with captured Africans

358
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: that the Brits would take across the Atlantic to the

359
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: West Indies. So the typical British citizen by the seventeen eighties,

360
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: they couldn't visually see slavery. It didn't exist within Great Britain.

361
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: You couldn't have walked down the street to a plantation

362
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: and watch slaves being whipped or anything. You couldn't see it.

363
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: So Clarkson had the challenge of making it real to

364
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 1: the British people. It turned out to be a genius

365
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: in marketing. He knew that images would go a long

366
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: way to convincing people how evil this institution was. So

367
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: he went to Josiah Wedgwood, the pottery businessman, who he

368
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: knew to be sympathetic to the cause, and he said,

369
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: we need an image that we can put on plates,

370
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: on metals, anything. You know, if they'd had T shirts

371
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: then they would have put it on T shirts, I'm sure.

372
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: And Wedgwood created an image of a kneeling black man

373
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: with his hands in prayer looking skyward. And around that image,

374
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: wherever it appeared, were the words am I not a man?

375
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: And a brother? Well, they had a powerful impact on

376
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: the British people. That was a question now every brain. Yeah,

377
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: they had to answer it. They had to deal with it,

378
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 1: and they had to learn firsthand from those who could

379
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: say I saw it. In the West Indies, one escaped slave,

380
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: Lauda Equiato, he knew slavery very well, but he made

381
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: his way back to Britain and joined the anti slavery

382
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: and he was able, along with Clarkson's help, to tell

383
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: the people, here's what I saw, so it became real

384
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: to them. And when that happened, it stays were numbered.

385
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: Ironically enough, Wedgewood, I assume is the fine china that

386
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: many of us have in our home show.

387
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: That's the guy he started the company.

388
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: Well, from now on, I don't buy nor talkie I

389
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: about Wedgwood. Thomas Clarkson, a normal guy who got passionate

390
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: about an issue, used his abilities, saw a need and

391
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 2: filled it and changed her world.

392
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: And one of his biographers summed him up so well,

393
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: Ellen Gibson Wilson, when she said this, Thomas Clarkson seventeen

394
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: sixty to eighteen forty six, a man who gave his

395
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: life to help people he never met from lands he

396
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: never saw.

397
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 2: Doesn't get any better than that. No, thank you joining

398
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: us for this special series. An army of normal dead

399
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: folks I mean, Alex, I can't believe very should call

400
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: it an army of normal dead folks.

401
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: I kind of do like that. It's pretty funny.

402
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Oh I don't think you're dumb, as

403
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: I say, I as. Okay, all right, Well, here's the deal.

404
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: If Thomas Clarkson or other episodes have inspired you in general,

405
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: or better yet, by taking action by making your own

406
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: stand in our time buying Larry Reid's book Real Heroes,

407
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: where this story came from, or if you have story

408
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: ideas for this series, please let me know. I'd love

409
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 2: to hear about it. You can write me anytime at

410
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 2: Bill at normal Folks dot Us, and I promise I

411
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: will respond. And yes, I'm asking you for stories that

412
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: will go to an army of normal dead folks. Actually

413
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 2: it'll go to a live folks, but it's about dead folks.

414
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah too, live about dead folks. Anybody who's it, well,

415
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: dead folks. But what we're trying to do is highlight

416
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: dead folks that we can no longer talk to. But

417
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: we're an army. If they were alive today, there would

418
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: be an army of normal folks, but since they're dead,

419
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: they're now an army. Of normal dead folks. You can

420
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: still inspire us eve another dead that's right, dead inspirational

421
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: dead folks. So send us stories of inspirational dead folks

422
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: because we want to highlight them too. Why discriminate? Why

423
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: discriminate right if you? Why hold it against somebody for dying?

424
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: All right?

425
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: Well, if you enjoyed this episode, share friends and on

426
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: social subscribe to the podcast rate interview it, join the

427
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: army at normal Folks dot us. Consider becoming a premium member.

428
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: There all of these things that will help us grow

429
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: an army of normal folks and shop talk and an

430
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: army of normal dead folks. Thanks to our producer, Ironlight Labs.

431
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if they'll continue to produce us after

432
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 2: we highlight dead people, but thanks to them anyway, I'm

433
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Bill Courtney. Until next time, do what you can