1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: the future of this show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, 11 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: dot com. 15 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: We talked to you recently about Mark Andresen and then 16 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg going on with Joe Rogan and being like, you know, we. 17 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 4: Gotta deal with this. 18 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: This d banking Elizabeth Warren's d banking agency, the Consumer 19 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: Financial Protection Bureau, which actually is basically like the anti 20 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: scam Agency, is sort of like the best way effectively 21 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: to think about that. This is no surprise, but Rohit Chopra, 22 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: who's been the director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau 23 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: and a very effective one at that, who, by the way, 24 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: has a posed debanking people for political ends. He has 25 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: now officially been fired and in addition put the next 26 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: piece up on the screen. Apparently the billionaire Hedgemund Treasury 27 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: Secretary Scott Bessant has been put in for as acting 28 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: director of the CFPB, and he immediately sends out a 29 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: memo to staff saying you need to halt movement on 30 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: any proposed or final rules guidance, suspend effective dates of rules, 31 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: don't advance investigations or enforcement actions, no material agreements, no 32 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: public communications or reports, seemingly giving Mark Andrews and Mark 33 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg and a lot of other people exactly what they 34 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: were looking for here. 35 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. That I mean, yes, this is what. 36 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: Grod to hear to say, thank you, help people understand 37 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: what is the import of this particular agency and just 38 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: remind them why the Mark Andrews and the Mark Zuckerbergs 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: of the world were irritated at it in particular. 40 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, So the CFPB was dealing with, you know, scams 41 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 5: and fraud and consumer protection questions, and so they would 42 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 5: they were going after you know, there was this there's 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 5: this company called Synapps which was like which was one 44 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 5: of these fintech companies, and it sort of appeared like 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 5: a bank and then a bunch of people lost their 46 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 5: life savings in it. And the CFPB was investigating doing 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 5: things to try to deal with with syn apps. Marc 48 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 5: Andreesen was a big investor in synapps. This is true 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 5: for a number of different investments. 50 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: That he made. 51 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 5: He doesn't like that the CFPB is wasn't was enforcing 52 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 5: the law. I think that's my general view. But this 53 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 5: is also you know Wall Street generally. There are there 54 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 5: are different parts here because there's some things that the 55 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 5: CFPB was doing that Wall Street did like. So they 56 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 5: were looking into big tech owned payment systems. Banks are 57 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 5: afraid of that open banking rules that some fintech companies 58 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 5: liked that banks don't don't. Particularly, there's there's elements around 59 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 5: FICO and credit reporting that some mortgage bankers don't like. 60 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 5: So there's there's some industry splits, but by and largely 61 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 5: what you find is that Wall Street and like hates 62 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 5: any kind of anyone that tells them no, right, and 63 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 5: that the CFPB and Roach Choper was saying, no, you 64 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 5: can't steal everything. You can only steal a lot, right, 65 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 5: and and so yeah, I know, how dare you right? 66 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 5: And the Silicon Valley, you know, was getting and has 67 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 5: been getting into payments and banking style arrangements, especially especially Meta. 68 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: One himself is interested in this for Twitter as well. 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: Yes, the original you know vision of Confinity and X 70 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 3: is literally PayPal. 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: That's what he's a sign of what he thought it was. 72 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 5: He made his original money from PayPal, right, so that 73 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 5: was a big, a big part of it. But yeah, 74 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 5: metas into it. Amazon is hugely into it too. I 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 5: mean there there's Meta tried to start their own currency 76 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 5: like Libra, right, and I know, and everyone's like, you know, 77 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 5: how dare how dare Biden be so mean to Meta? 78 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: And it's like that was blocked under Trump right right? 79 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 5: First Trump, So we got to come up with a 80 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 5: nomenclature for first Trump and now Trump Trump Trump. 81 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 4: Trump two point Oh I love what I do. Yeah, 82 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 4: that's what I've been turning with as well. Trump the return. 83 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, let's also talk let's let's go to 84 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: let's see see four. This is sort of more directly 85 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: related to the CFP B. You've had a similar order 86 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: go out at the SEC that's Security Exchange Commission, which 87 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: looks at sort of like you know, insider trading and 88 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: other white collar banking crimes. So they say that this 89 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: change has not previously been reported made under new leadership, 90 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: they are tightening oversight of probes, basically making it so 91 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: that you have to go through the political appointees. If 92 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: you want to, you can start an investigation, but if 93 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 2: you're actually going to launch an official probe, you've got 94 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: to go through the political appointees. You know, how should 95 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: we understand this shift matter? 96 00:04:58,960 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: Is this common? 97 00:04:59,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: What does this? 98 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 6: So? 99 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: This is? This is actually a big deal. 100 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 5: It's one of these annoying things that annoying people like 101 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 5: me paytential attention to. When you're an investigator, if you 102 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 5: have you know, if you have to get permission from 103 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 5: your boss to look into something, you're going to look 104 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 5: into less stuff, right, and a bunch of agencies. Sometimes 105 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 5: they delegate authority to staff to look into stuff, and 106 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 5: sometimes they don't. This is actually true in Congress too, 107 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 5: Like Congress has investigative authority. Sometimes they let the chairman 108 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 5: issue subpoenas. Sometimes the whole committee has to vote on subpoenas. 109 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 5: It's a very different arrangement. If you have one guy 110 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 5: who can just issue a subpoena if he wants to, 111 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 5: And that's basically what they're saying here is there. 112 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: What they're now saying is if you work. 113 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 5: At one at the SEC, you have to go you 114 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 5: have to get permission from the Republican Commissioners about whether 115 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 5: to investigate something. And so that just provides a much 116 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 5: tighter level of control over what the SEC is doing 117 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 5: and means that the SEC is not going to be 118 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 5: doing as much. 119 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: Has it worked like that in the past, do you know, 120 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 3: is this like a reverse of guidance or Biden or 121 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: I think the true? 122 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 5: Well, so what that article said and I'm just going 123 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 5: off with that, right, you know, article on screen set 124 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 5: is that it's traditionally the SEC gives wide latitude to 125 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 5: to its people to just investigate. I know that the 126 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 5: Federal Trade Commission better. They in the consumer branch of 127 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 5: the Federal Trade Commission, They've historically allowed staff to just 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 5: kind of I got a hunch that there's that vitamin 129 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 5: supplement guys scamming people. I'm going to go investigate. I'm 130 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 5: not going to bug the commissioners every time. On the 131 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 5: competition side, So for antitrust, they traditionally did have to 132 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 5: get permission to investigate companies. 133 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: A couple of years ago. 134 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 5: The FTC changed that and said, actually, now on the 135 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 5: competition side, if you if you smell something that's off, 136 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 5: you can go and investigate. And so that's a way 137 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 5: of just kind of saying we're going to let you 138 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 5: do more. 139 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: But you know, it has there are. 140 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 5: Implications to it, right, so if things are going through 141 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 5: the you know, staff doesn't always have a good political sense, 142 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 5: and so sometimes they can issue investigative demands that are 143 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 5: intimidating or scary or whatever. 144 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: So it's not like a completely outrageous. 145 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 5: Proposal, but in the context of the SEC, in the 146 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 5: context of these of what Trump is doing more broadly, 147 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 5: it really is about, you know, shutting down investigation of 148 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 5: corporate crime. And that that I mean, there's we're essentially 149 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 5: in the moment of the white collar purge, right, all 150 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 5: crime is legal, right, and that that is kind of 151 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 5: true I think for the next six months, year or 152 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 5: something like that. I mean, also the DJ. You know, 153 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 5: a lot of the shake ups that are going on 154 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 5: in government. I don't think there's a lot of investigations 155 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 5: of crime going on right now at the FBI or DJ. 156 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 5: And you know, you're seeing a CFPV shut down. You 157 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 5: see the SEC basically same sort of very similar. You're 158 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 5: seeing i think a rollback at the consumer protection side 159 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 5: of the FCC, not the competition side. So what you, 160 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 5: I think broadly are going to see is that there's 161 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 5: going to be a wide latitude for pushing the law 162 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 5: or just violating the law. 163 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: If you have a suit and tie. 164 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: Can you respond to some of the Some of the 165 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: discourse online that I've been watching spectating is there's this 166 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: analysis of you know, you people got your way, You 167 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: anti trust people got your way under Biden, and the 168 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: public voter for Trump anyway, and so you know, you 169 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: have this stuff you care about your whole competition and 170 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: going after white collar criminals like it's not all that popular, right? 171 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 4: What is your view of that? 172 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: And of because I do think that Biden, because he 173 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 2: was an old man who couldn't really articulate much of 174 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: anything about anything, did fail to enlist the American people 175 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: in a project that was pissing off the tech barons 176 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: and the Wall Street people, and is part of why 177 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: they decided to completely throw in with Trump. So it 178 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: ended up in a sense, I mean, I'm glad that 179 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: the enforcement actions happen. I think that stuff is important 180 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: and hopefully has lasting riverbding impacts. But in a sense, 181 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: you know, you got four years of a better approach. 182 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: You pissed off powerful people, but you didn't enlist the 183 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: American people and help them understand what you were doing 184 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: to create a sort of like popular understanding of why 185 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: these things are important, which makes it easy for Mark 186 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: Andrewes and to go on Joe Rogan's podcast and be 187 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: like the cfp B they're d banking conservatives and loop 188 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: it all into some you know, culture bullshit culture war umbrella. 189 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, so there's I think there's two. There's two ways 190 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 5: to understand what happened. Okay, So one, I think we 191 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 5: can go into ways that the INtime monopolist sort of 192 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 5: things that they we didn't do enough of. I'll say 193 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 5: we because I consider myself this sort of a movement 194 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 5: and stuff that's kind of our fault, right. And then 195 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 5: I think there's the broader dynamic. So it's just let's 196 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 5: just divide it into those into two different things. I think 197 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 5: the broader dynamic is far more impactful. So just to 198 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 5: give you a sense of how much power the INtime 199 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 5: monopolist had. So if you take the CFPB right, the 200 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 5: anti trust enforcers which are in the Federal Trade Commission, 201 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 5: and the Anti Trust Division, total budget right of all 202 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 5: three of those is less than a billion dollars. Okay, 203 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 5: the rest of the government, I don't know what is 204 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 5: that five trillion dollars something like that. So you know, 205 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: you're talking about a very very very small part of 206 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 5: the government. Now, it was I think important, and people 207 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 5: noticed it because they were the only ones doing something 208 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 5: that was actually different and articulating. Maybe not a new agenda, 209 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 5: but a traditional agenda that the Democrats would have recognized. 210 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties or nineteen sixties or something like that. 211 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 5: But the rest of the government, right, you know, Javier 212 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 5: Basera at Health and Human Services, right, when was the 213 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 5: last time we heard his name? 214 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: Right, do anything? Right? 215 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 5: And so how much can you really accomplish out of 216 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 5: a couple of regulatory agencies when the Federal Reserve and 217 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 5: we don't nobody is like, oh man, that j Powell 218 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 5: at the Federal Reserve. That's the reason Democrats lost it 219 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 5: is because nobody is nobody. That's just the water was 220 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 5: swimming in. Oh Man, that Jenny Yellen at Treasury Department. 221 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: Oh man, that. 222 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: Well, Pow probably had more to do it with anybody, right, yeah, 223 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: out of anybody else, that's. 224 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 4: Probably Oh yeah, No one's thinking that. 225 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 6: That they should. 226 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 5: You know, in twenty twenty two, Democrats overperform in the 227 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 5: midterms at the height of inflation. 228 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four. 229 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 5: Got crushed, Yes, because people didn't want high interest rates. 230 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: It was a high interest rate election. 231 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I mean that's what it's. 232 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 5: It's so so that I think that that people noticed 233 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 5: the inti monopolists because that was different, right, but it 234 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 5: wasn't dominant in the administration. That The other thing is 235 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 5: there was no alignment between the politics and the policy 236 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 5: of the entire so, like, yeah, what you said is right. 237 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 5: Biden didn't articulate it. But I think if you talk 238 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 5: to most Democrats in Congress, right, they didn't know what 239 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 5: the anti trust people were doing. They couldn't articulate any 240 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 5: of this stuff. So it was sort of this orphan 241 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 5: agenda over here. And I only think it's totally fair 242 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 5: to say, oh, you know, you made powerful people mad 243 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 5: but didn't bring in any political benefits. Therefore it made 244 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 5: it worse. I think those powerful people. I think what 245 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: happened is the people voted. My guess is people voted 246 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 5: for Trump because costs went up, wages went down, and 247 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 5: Democrats were obsessed with stupid things, right, And that's not 248 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 5: you know, Lena CON's fault. That's a broader political dynamic. 249 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 5: I do think though there are some things that the 250 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 5: anti monopolists. 251 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: You know. 252 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 5: The other thing is when candidates were running, they were 253 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 5: running on things like Inhaler's right, getting cheaper, right, and 254 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 5: you know, Epipen's getting cheaper and junk fees and a 255 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 5: whole like the arguments that basically the only thing Democrats 256 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 5: had to run on in twenty twenty four that was 257 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 5: economic was the stuff the anti monopolists had done. It 258 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 5: didn't necessarily work, although I think in some races it 259 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 5: probably did. You saw it like in Las Vegas or 260 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 5: in Nevada and in other states there were normy Democrats 261 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 5: that were running on opposition to the Kroger robertson merger right. 262 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: And does this stuff work? 263 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 5: I don't know, but I'm not a political person, but 264 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 5: it's like, if that's what they're if that's the only 265 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 5: thing they're running on, you know, they're not running on 266 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 5: the first you know, non bare binary undersecretary of whatever. 267 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 5: They're running on you know, food prices, so that and 268 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 5: the things that the Biden administration had done. The fact 269 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 5: that the only people who did anything where the anti monopolists, 270 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 5: is not our fault. But I do think this stuff 271 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 5: takes way too long. Right, so you launch something like 272 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 5: you launch a Trump launched a Facebook suit in a 273 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 5: Google suit in twenty twenty. The Facebook suit isn't even 274 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 5: going to trial until you know, later this spring. So 275 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 5: that's five years from them filing the complaint, six seven 276 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 5: years from the investigation to even going to trial. It's 277 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 5: not talking about appeals and everything. And that's just broadly 278 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 5: true across the board, the suit against Ticketmaster, the suit 279 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 5: against Google, suit against Apple suit. People don't feel the 280 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 5: effects because it takes way too long. And then the 281 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 5: other part of it is I think I think the 282 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 5: agencies did a great job. You know, you can't issue 283 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 5: a rule and it takes three years to issue a 284 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 5: rule tapping overdraft fees. 285 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. We gotta, you know, we gotta hurry this 286 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: stuff up. 287 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 5: We also have to do something about the courts who 288 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 5: just block everything that's nice, you know, which is which 289 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 5: is kind of crazy, you know, the non compete rules, 290 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 5: stuff like that. So there are a number of institutional factors. 291 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 5: And then I think, you know, this is the first 292 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 5: time that any of these people, you know, that we 293 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 5: had ever had any levers of government to pull. And 294 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 5: so what you're seeing more broadly is the generational dynamic 295 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 5: and a Democratic Party which was basically overlooking or actively 296 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 5: helping oligarchs under Bill Clinton, under Barack Obama, and now 297 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 5: some of the younger people with no mentorship at all. Right, 298 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 5: we're saying maybe we should try something different. And nobody 299 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 5: in our lifetime has done anything like this before. So 300 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: of course it's not going to be perfect, but it 301 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 5: is the outline for a party that's going to advocate 302 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 5: for the working class or all. And I don't mean 303 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 5: that the Democratic Party, I mean either party that wants 304 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 5: to do this is going to have to do some 305 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 5: of these anti corporate things, and that's going to upset 306 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: powerful people one way or the other. 307 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm all in favor of upsetting the powerful people. 308 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: I just think I mean, I think you articulated all 309 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: very well, and I've thought more about it and have 310 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: a certainly more granular understanding than I do. But if 311 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: you were pissing off the powerful people, but you aren't 312 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: like an FDR explaining like I welcome their hatred and 313 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: here's why they hate me and here's how it's still 314 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: nobody knows about it, then you're just going to have 315 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: a lot of powerful people mad at you and hold 316 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: that on your destruction and you're not going to have 317 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: the you know, on the other side, you need to 318 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: have the people behind you to back you up. 319 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 5: You just have this joke when I would talk to 320 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 5: someone who was, you know, we're going an anti trust case, 321 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 5: I would, you know, they would say something about what 322 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 5: they were doing, and I would just be like, a 323 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 5: voter might hear you? 324 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's really I mean if you look that. 325 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 5: I looked system sort of semi systematically at what the 326 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 5: White House Press Secretary was would say, right, and they 327 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 5: were asked about a Ticketmaster suit or a Google or 328 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 5: whatever it was, and she would always say, I can't 329 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 5: comment on pending litigation. And then people would be like, 330 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 5: but it's Ticketmaster. They couldn't sell tickets to the Taylor 331 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 5: Swift conference or a conference concert or. 332 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: God man, I am such a nerd. The jacket, it's 333 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: really good. 334 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 3: I was a victim of Ticketmaster. Well I couldn't get 335 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 3: a ticket, It's true, and we happened. 336 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 5: So, you know, she made fun of the reporters for answering, 337 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 5: for asking a question. And so it's like, if that's 338 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 5: your framework, right, if you just mock the idea that, 339 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 5: if you mock your own administration's agenda, that's a. 340 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: Little that's a little bit. That's pretty weird. 341 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 5: Right, And I mean you saw, like anyway, I don't 342 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 5: want to get into the Democratic Party. There's a I've 343 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 5: been thinking a lot about it. But there's a basic 344 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 5: problem that they have, which is, you know the street 345 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 5: lamp issue. Right, So the street lamp the parable about economists. 346 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 5: So a drunk guy is looking for his keys, yeah, right, 347 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 5: and the guy and the cops says, why are you 348 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 5: looking here? And he's like, where'd you lose your keys? 349 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 5: He said over there? Why are you looking here? He said, Oh, 350 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 5: well that's what the light, that's where the light is. 351 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 5: He's looking under the lamp. Yeah, And I think that's 352 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 5: kind of what what democrats do is they are, you know, 353 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 5: they're trying to figure out what what a problem. What 354 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 5: to do about a problem that voters are complaining about, 355 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 5: But they always look under the lamp post instead of 356 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 5: where the problem is, even though they know it's not 357 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 5: right right, And that's that's a that's a dynamic party wide. 358 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: Well, I always love talking to you, man, really appreciate 359 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: you joining us. 360 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 2: Just when you thought DEI was out of the federal government, 361 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: it is back with a vengeance. Let's put this up 362 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: on the screen. We got a new task Force to 363 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: combat anti Semitism announced by the Justice Department. They say 364 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: in this anti Semitism is any environment in any environment 365 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: is repugnant to this nation's ideal. Certainly, said Senior counsel 366 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 2: Or Assistant Attorney General with Civil Rights. We'll be heading 367 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 2: this task force. Apartment takes seriously our response ability to 368 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: eradicate this hatred wherever it is found. Task Force to 369 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: Combat anti Semitism is the first step in giving life 370 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: to President Trump's renewed commitment to ending anti Semitism in 371 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: our schools. 372 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 4: Of course, everybody here a poorse. 373 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: And poses actual anti semitism. But we know that the 374 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: definition that is embraced right Trump and has also been 375 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: embraced on a bipartisan basis by members of Congress also 376 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: includes things like daring to criticize Israel. Trump has also, 377 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: you know, moved to put in place procedures to deport 378 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: anyone from any students who are here on foreign visas 379 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: who are pro Palestine and engage in protests there as well. 380 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: So even Christopher Ruffo took a principal stand on this 381 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: one and said it was inconsistent with the push against AI. 382 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 4: Got a hand tool. 383 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: Put this up on the screen, He says. Supporters of 384 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: this initiative should ask themselves, how is it reasonable to 385 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: support a task force on anti Semitism while opposing an 386 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: Ebrahm Kenny style task force on anti Black racism DEI? 387 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: By the same principle, how is it reasonable to support 388 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: a task force on anti Semitism without also supporting a 389 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: task force of anti Wait racism and a task force 390 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: on anti Asian racism, both of which are widespread on campuses. 391 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: How is it consistent for the administration to abolish DEI 392 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: than establish a special task force for one rather than 393 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: all of these groups. 394 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 4: I think that is very well. 395 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: So I think he's totally right, And of course there's 396 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: always a huge blind sprout whenever it comes to all 397 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: of this. 398 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: I haven't seen much push I mean maybe you're more 399 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: tuned in, but haven't seen much pushback nice against this. 400 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's all be real, like you know, like it's 401 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: always been obvious it's fake. Uh, you know in terms 402 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 3: of where you had Ron remember when he created literally 403 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: affirmative action for Jewishness. 404 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 4: That's right. 405 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 3: So and these are state resources. He's like, anybody who 406 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: feels unsafe and across the United States is welcome to 407 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: come to Florida. We'll give you tuition assistance. And I 408 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 3: was like, uh, are we understanding this? Or powerlunteer if 409 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: we'll recall was like, oh, anybody who uh, well, it's 410 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: actually not his company, but I mean he's an investor 411 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: or whatever. But but my only point is Peter, for 412 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: some reason, is always socially the paltants like it's Joe 413 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 3: Lonsdale and Alex cart it's a really Alex Carp's company, 414 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 3: so he should get the smoke if people are looking 415 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: at it to get it out there. He's a multi 416 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 3: billionaire too, so there you go, you can attack him. 417 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 3: My point around it is that it's obviously been a 418 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 3: blind spot. It's one which is wholly focused on by 419 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 3: these donors, and it has become extremely important because this 420 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 3: is the literal Department of Justice, the arm of the 421 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 3: government now adopting this anti semitism definition from Congress. 422 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: What is it? 423 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: The IHR a definition around anti Semitism, instituting it in law, 424 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: which is an obvious and direct threat to the First 425 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: Amendment rights of all American citizens. Baby, that's I mean, 426 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: that's my beef. 427 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 2: They basically want to like make it illegal to criticize Israel. 428 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it's insane. Glenn makes this point all the time. 429 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: You can criticize America till the cows come home. You 430 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: say anything about this country, and you should be able to, 431 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: But you can't say anything about this foreign country that 432 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: we ship billions of dollars in weapons and other aid to. Like, 433 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: that's insane. That is a grave infringement on our rights. 434 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 2: And anyone who claims to be, you know, in favor 435 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 2: of color blindness and you know, in favor of merit 436 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: against DEI, anyone. 437 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 4: Who claims to be in favor of free speech. 438 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 2: Should be wildly opposed to this particular direction. There are 439 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 2: a couple other things that I just wanted to get 440 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: into the show to keep an eye on as well. 441 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: In terms of that attack on free speech. You know, 442 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: Ryan laid this out really well. Trump has basically adopted 443 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: this new tactic where he sues a media organization or 444 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: like an Sells or or whoever truly for buying large, 445 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: frivolous lawsuits that in any normal time would either be 446 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: thrown out or he would lose on the merits. But 447 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: these media organized media organizations, which are gigantic conglomerates, which 448 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: want various things from the federal government and want to 449 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: avoid let's say, antitrust scrutiny in whatever new merger deal 450 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: that they have floated or you know that they just 451 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: were able to accomplish. They want to keep in Trump's 452 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: good graces, so they basically decide to settle and pay 453 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 2: him off in what amounts to effectively a bribe to 454 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: leave them alone. That's happened a couple of times. But 455 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: now we also have the FCC going after a number 456 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: of different media organizations. 457 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 4: This is pretty wild. It could put D three up 458 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 4: on the screen. 459 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: So CBS has been forced to hand over the unedited 460 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: transcript from that Kamala Harris interview that Trump and other 461 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 2: Republicans didn't like how it was edited. 462 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: I mean, like I mean, to be fair, they did 463 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: edit it dishonestly because from in terms of the way 464 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: they put it out or not. 465 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: Okay, well, Fox News dishonestly edited a Trump town hall 466 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: and edited out his stuff. If the Biden administration, you know, 467 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: if Kamala had been elected and the SEC was going 468 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: after Fox News because they didn't like how the interview 469 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 2: was edited, we should be opposed to that as well. 470 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 3: I don't disagree. I think that, I mean, the difference 471 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: between Fox and CBS is about the network status in 472 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 3: terms of their I forget exactly what it is about 473 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 3: the fair something doctrine under because it's a network versus 474 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 3: an actual channel on cable. 475 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: That's the pretext that they're giving. 476 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 3: I actually think was more egregious are all of these 477 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: media companies which are settling with Donald Trump totally because 478 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: that is literally like as you and I know, because 479 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: we have similar insurance policies and others, it is the 480 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: bar for having to pay out on defamation is you 481 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: have to do what CNN did in the case of 482 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: that guy who they defamed down in Florida. They were 483 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 3: like lied about him. They literally had recordings that were 484 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 3: revealed where they're like, I hate that guy. I want 485 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: to screw him over, didn't issue a timely retraction and 486 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 3: caused financial harm to an individual, and he wasn't a 487 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 3: public figure like you have to check like nine all 488 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: of those boxes to be able. 489 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: That's why it's so rare that anything like it even happens. 490 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 3: I think it's much crazier that they are settling with 491 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: the president literally paying I think all. 492 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 4: Of us crazy. 493 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: They're also going after the FCC is also going after 494 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: NPR and PBS, saying he's concerned that they could be 495 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: violating federal law by airing commercials. In particular, they say 496 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: it's possible NPR and PBS member stations are broadcasting underwriting 497 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: announcements that cross the line into prohibited commercial advertisements. Again, obviously, 498 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: what how do you feel about NPR PBS? This is 499 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: like an ideological attack on them that doesn't really have 500 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: anything to do with whether or not they are taking 501 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: appropriate commercial money. And then the other piece that kind 502 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: of falls into what you were saying, Sager about the 503 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: like capitulation and the bending of the knee. This is 504 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 2: not an overtbride but you guys will remember before the election, 505 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: the Washington Post, the Bezos Washington Post and the La 506 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: Times both decided, even though they're at a real staff, 507 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 2: had prepared endorsements of Kamala Harris, but they were just 508 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: not going to endorse at all. Well, the La Times 509 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: tried to cloak this at the time and like, oh, 510 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: it's because we don't like her policy on Gaza. I 511 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: think at this point it's pretty clear that that was 512 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: not really what was going on. We now have this 513 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: is just absolutely agree. Just put this up on the screen. 514 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 2: So they picked up an op ed from a contributor 515 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: that was very critical of RFK Junior and his approach, 516 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: and it was actually an interesting op ed talking about 517 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: his thesis was basically like the reaction to Luigi Mangioni 518 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 2: and the support for RFK Junior in some ways comes 519 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 2: from the same place of like, discussed with the healthcare 520 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: system and its failures, and we're getting sicker and we're 521 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 2: getting fatter, and you know, our life expectancy is dropping, 522 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: and but he goes on to make, you know, very 523 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: critical argument about RFK Junior. So its its Originally the 524 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 2: closing line said, although RFK Junior and Luigi Mangioni. Are 525 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: both responses the same underlying problem of US healthcare corruption. 526 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: There's a major difference between them. One allegedly operated outside 527 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: the law to kill one person in defensive millions, whereas 528 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: the other, via his egomaniacal disregard for scientific evidence, seeks 529 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: to use law itself to inflict preventable death on those millions. 530 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: Very critical of RFK Junior. The headline was supposed to 531 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 2: be critical. Well, the LA Times before they published, stripped 532 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: out all the sentences that were critical of RFK Junior, 533 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: flipped the headline to be the polar opposite of what 534 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: this op ed contributor intended it to be and published 535 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: it that way. 536 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 4: And the owner of the La. 537 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: Times, the dude who blocked the endorsement previously, tweeted it 538 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: out to, you know, celebrate this support of RFK Junior, 539 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: which the author han't had intended in the total opposite direction. So, 540 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: you know, another instance obviously of the media just like 541 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: wanting to be on Trump's good side, et cetera, et cetera, 542 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 2: that we're seeing almost almost across the board in various ways. 543 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: And I think that you're right. The pieces perhaps the 544 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: wildest direction. 545 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: By the way, if anything ever like that happens and 546 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 3: somebody doesn't quit and that's crazy. 547 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: Well he doesn't actually what he's a contributor. He doesn't 548 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: actually like work for them, I'm sure. And he said 549 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: he will never publish with that us. But you can't. 550 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 4: I mean, it's just. 551 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 3: If somebody ever did that to me, I'm like, okay, 552 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: it is outrageously ethical. 553 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: So between the time, you know, you work with an 554 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: editor of course, and he proved, okay, this is you know, 555 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: this is where we are and this would you agree to, 556 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: and then before it's published, like imagine if you know 557 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: our producers after you recorded your monologue went in and 558 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: completely flipped on its head, changed the like insane. 559 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: You know, I almost imagine it to a previous company. 560 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 3: Oh we'll just leave it there. Let's get to uh 561 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: Anthony Lowenstein. 562 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 2: We are fortunate to be joined this morning by Anthony Lowenstein, 563 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 2: who is an independent journalist. He's author of the global 564 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: best selling book The Palestine Laboratory, also a podcast with 565 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: drop site News, our friends Ryan and Jeremy and just 566 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: released a documentary series with Al Jazeera English on the 567 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 2: Gaza Laboratory. 568 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: Great to see you Anthony, welcome, good to see you. 569 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 6: Thanks for having me guys, thank you. 570 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course I watched The Dark yesterday evening. You 571 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: did a fantastic job. Let's just give your viewers a 572 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 2: little bit of a taste of what is in that 573 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: new documentary. 574 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 6: The Farmbra Air Show one of the largest in the world. 575 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 6: Global weapons giants like Bae Systems, Lockheed Martin, and Airbus 576 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 6: come to show off their latest military hardware. Billions of 577 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 6: dollars of civil and military deals are done here every year. 578 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 6: Standing shoulders to shoulder with these global military giants. Israel's 579 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 6: top weapons manufacturers like Israel Aerospace Industries and missile makers Raphael. 580 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 6: In the main hall, Israel's largest private weapons company, Elbert, 581 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 6: has a huge stand They needed to showcase their world 582 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 6: class drones and missiles. Despite its tiny population, Israel is 583 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 6: the world's ninth largest weapons producer. This high budget promo 584 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 6: is for the Trophy anti missile system made by Israeli 585 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 6: company Raphael. It's the kind of advanced technology Israel specializes 586 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 6: in and makes the Israeli MIRKF tank one of the 587 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 6: best on the market. 588 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 4: Automatically activated only when enemy fuyer the vehicle. 589 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 6: Both tank and anti missile systems sell around the world 590 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 6: to undisclose clients. Overall, Israel exports more than thirteen billion 591 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 6: dollars of weapons and surveillance equipment a year. And with 592 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 6: adverts like this for the Spike firefly, Israeli company's hint 593 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 6: that their products may have been battle tested in Palestine. 594 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 6: So how does being a mad who to armed supplier 595 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 6: impact Israel's diplomatic position? Could it give the country a 596 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 6: measure of impunity when it wants to undertake its own wars? 597 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 2: So, Anthony, why did you think this particular aspect of 598 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: the conflict was important for people around the world to understand? 599 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 6: When I started writing the book I came out in 600 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 6: mid twenty twenty three, I felt that it was an 601 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 6: issue that actually was largely of course, this was before 602 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 6: October seven, an issue that had been largely ignored. I 603 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 6: must say, no one else had ever covered it. They had, 604 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 6: of course in the media here and there. But the 605 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 6: Israeli arms industry explains so much about how Israel operates 606 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 6: in the occupied Palestinian territories and also in the region. 607 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 6: I don't stay in the book or the film or 608 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 6: the podcast that Israel's occupying Palestine simply to make money 609 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 6: from weapons. That would not be true. But instead of 610 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 6: a self perfetual wedding industry where you have a massive 611 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 6: number of Israelis who of course going to the army, 612 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 6: the IDF, they spent many years there, They're in intelligence, 613 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 6: they're in various other units, and they take that experience 614 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 6: into the private sector once they'd left. And that's why, 615 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 6: as we say in the film, it's now the ninth 616 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 6: biggest arms still are in the world for a country 617 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 6: which is a tiny, tiny population. And we thought that 618 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 6: the reason to make the film, which has been we 619 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 6: sort of start as working with a British production company, 620 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 6: Blackley Films, and the director Dan Davies since twenty twenty two, 621 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 6: although it really ramped up last year, was to explain 622 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 6: to people who maybe hadn't read the book called listen 623 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 6: to the podcast that this issue I think explains so 624 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 6: much about how Israel is using, particularly in the war 625 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 6: in Gaza, as a way to showcase huge amounts of 626 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 6: new tech, including AI, despite the fact that on October seven, 627 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 6: all the tech around Gaza failed. People failed, the military failed, 628 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 6: the government fail. Everyone failed. Is from the Israeli perspective, 629 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 6: of course, and despite that, the Israeli arms industry has 630 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 6: never been better now might say better more profitable in 631 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 6: the last fifteen sixteen months. 632 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, Anthony, it's really interesting to think about both Gaza 633 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 3: and Ukraine as the forefront of what warfare looks like 634 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 3: in the future. So one of the things that you've 635 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 3: touched on in your documentary is specifically this new use 636 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: of artificial intelligence. So can you lay out some of 637 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: what that looks like. I think the world really got 638 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 3: a taste of that with that famous drone footage several 639 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 3: months ago of following that man and assassinating him even 640 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: though he prepared to be doing npolutely nothing wrong. 641 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 6: One of the things that Israel has been doing before 642 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 6: October seven was using AI, but since October seven there's 643 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 6: been a huge expansion. There's a various tools that they 644 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 6: use called lavender Where's Daddy really dystopian names, essentially finding 645 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 6: so called legitimate targets in the Israeli playbook to kill 646 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 6: people in Gaza. Now in theory in years past, it 647 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 6: was senior Hamas militants, senior Hamas leaders. What's happened since 648 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 6: and we discussed this in the film in great depth 649 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 6: is that the way that targets are selected is primarily 650 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 6: done through AI, through a system of massive data collecting 651 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 6: that Israel has been doing four years. There's about two 652 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 6: going three million civilians living in Gars, that's been the 653 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 6: case for many years, and Israel controls all aspects of 654 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 6: that land, that territory, or communication in and out, all 655 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 6: information about personal details, et cetera. So all that data 656 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 6: is fed into a machine and it essentially spits out 657 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 6: information which is deemed to be legitimate targets. But the 658 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 6: key point here is that, as Israel calls it legitimate 659 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 6: targets to kill civilians has been massively increased. So whereas 660 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 6: in the past, if Israel would kill the Hummas militant 661 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 6: alleged harmas militant, maybe five or ten civilians could be killed, 662 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 6: now we're talking about one hundreds, and particularly in the 663 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 6: first three or four months of this war after October seven, 664 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 6: where the death toll escalated into the tens of thousands 665 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 6: very quickly. It's important to say that I'm not arguing, 666 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 6: in no one's saying that AI is not making all 667 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 6: these decisions. This ultimately is made still by people, by humans, 668 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 6: and the ultimate problem here is the dehumanization of Palestinians 669 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 6: is so paramount within Israel that if they kill twenty 670 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 6: thirty forty fifty sixty thousand Palestinians deemed to be apparent terrorist, 671 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 6: that's legitimate. And what the fear I have is that 672 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 6: film talks about this is there are many other countries 673 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 6: that look to what Israel has been doing in Gaza 674 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 6: as a model as stagam as you say, what Ukraine 675 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 6: has been doing in their own wall, in their own country, 676 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 6: essentially backs by the US their models. They're testing grounds, 677 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 6: and the war has been used as a testing ground 678 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 6: for every Rak and Afghanistan were as well. But the 679 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 6: difference I think here is that the Israellies have a 680 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 6: captive Palestinian population on their doorstep indefinitely. And I fear that, 681 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 6: and I've heard this from people. I was doing work 682 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 6: on the film last year, spending time in Israel and 683 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 6: Palestine across the world, and a lot of countries look 684 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 6: to Israel with deep admiration, deep admiration because Israel gets 685 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 6: away with it and they have to this day. No 686 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 6: one is stopping them. This wasn't happening under Trump. On 687 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 6: the bottom, I should say or frankly won't happen under Trump. Yeah. 688 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: I think that was one of the most chilling moments 689 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: of the documentary, is talking about how this is something 690 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 2: that many countries want. They want the sort of tech 691 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: that allows them to get away with it, and I 692 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: think it's important for people to understand this isn't just 693 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 2: about battlefield technologies. You spend a good amount of time 694 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: on surveillance tech as well, which is extensive beyond belief. 695 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 2: Particularly hit home for me at a time when Trump 696 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: just announced this big Stargate five hundred billion dollar boondoggle. 697 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: One of the people involved, Oracles Larry Ellison, has been 698 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 2: out bragging about how AI is going to make sure 699 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: that all citizens are on their quote best behavior because 700 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: of the implementation of the surveillance tech. 701 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 4: Talk a little bit about that aspect of it. 702 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 6: Well, it's actually a quote in the film by a Palestinian, 703 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 6: a digital rights campaigner called Mona Shtaie, who literally uses 704 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 6: those words that Palestinians have to be in inverted commas 705 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 6: on their best behavior, both in real life and online 706 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 6: because the surveillance is so ubiquitous, and a lot of 707 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 6: people have seen the film and only came out less 708 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 6: than a week ago. The first part. The first part 709 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 6: said in Israel Palestine, and the second part we go 710 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 6: globally where I go to the US Mexico border, India, 711 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 6: Sri Lanka, not South Africa, and Greece and only show 712 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 6: how Israeli surveillance and repressive tech is exported globally. And 713 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 6: one of the things I think that many people don't 714 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 6: realize is how ubiquitous the surveillance is within Palestine. A 715 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 6: lot of people compare it to Black Mirror, the British 716 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 6: program which talked about a very believable near future where 717 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 6: surveillance is utterly everywhere. So when Larry Ellison or anyone 718 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 6: else says to be on your best behavior, who is 719 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 6: making those decisions? What's best behavior? And it comes in 720 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 6: in terms of Palestine. It means people who, for example, 721 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 6: can't express their honest opinion because they worry they'll be 722 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 6: deemed as security threats, terrorist threats. And one of the 723 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 6: things that AI is doing, and we talk about this 724 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 6: extensively in the film, is actually trying to document every 725 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 6: single citizen in Palestine with a certain almost like a 726 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 6: traffic light, So you are deemed as a threat if 727 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 6: you have certain political views, and we're saying to viewers as, 728 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 6: despite what Israel and supporters might say, this is not 729 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 6: about going after so called terrorists. The argument has not 730 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 6: been for years. Israel's killing all the terrorists in Gaza. 731 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 6: Has Anthony Blincoln himself said in the last days of 732 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 6: the Biden administration, Hamas is essentially regrouped and recruited huge 733 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 6: amounts of people during the last war. Now, Hamas has 734 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 6: been bloodied and beaten in certain ways, of course they have. 735 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 6: It's been a fifteen month war. But Hamas is still standing, 736 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 6: whatever we might think about them. That's the reality. So ultimately, 737 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 6: the question is what has Israel actually achieved here. They've 738 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 6: achieved the decimation of Gaza. Yes, they've achieved the massiveveillance 739 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 6: of many of the Ghazan population and a massive increase 740 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 6: in violence in the West Bank. So that's what many 741 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 6: countries look to with admiration, and we show a lot 742 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 6: of that in the second episode of the film. 743 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that that extends also now to Prime 744 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 3: Minister Netanyah, who's visit to Washington. He's actually literally here 745 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 3: as you speak, speaking with President Trump. All indications are 746 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 3: that he wants to scuttle quote phase two of the deal. 747 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 3: How does your documentary fit within that? 748 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 6: Look. One of the things that's very clear is that 749 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 6: within Israel itself, the country is split in a way 750 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 6: that there are many Israelies who want all the hostages out, 751 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 6: these rally hostages, which is a very reasonable demand, but 752 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 6: there's a huge pressure on Netanyahu within his coalition to 753 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 6: continue the war to essentially even destroy Gaza even more. Obviously, 754 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,479 Speaker 6: I can't predict exactly what the outcome of that meeting 755 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 6: between SnO and Trump will be, but I think I 756 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 6: suspect that there'll be pressure onto to try to continue 757 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 6: the negotiations to get more hostages out. There are many 758 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 6: many who remain in under Hamas control, so it seems 759 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 6: to me unlikely that Trump will simply allow that to happen. 760 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 6: The danger, to me is not just about the hostages question. 761 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 6: The broader question is a Trump himself said, literally a 762 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 6: week ago, very few days after we came into office, 763 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 6: how about Jordan or Egypt just taking one and a 764 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 6: half million Palestinians Like, hang on a minute, the idea 765 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 6: of removing them from Gaza so Gaza can be rebuilt 766 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 6: to whose dictates Jared Kushna his real estate mates. I mean, 767 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 6: we can set of joke about that, but that's literally 768 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 6: what Trump said, while at the same time the West 769 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 6: Bank is on fire. And I think there is a 770 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 6: real kind of accelerationist in Israel. And I've been saying 771 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 6: this for years, long before October seven. There are obviously 772 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 6: the is Raleigh Jews who oppose what's going on. Of 773 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 6: course they are, and some of them are in the film, 774 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 6: particularly in the second part. Gideon Levy is one good 775 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 6: example of that. But there is a sizeable proportion of 776 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 6: the Israeli population that believes it occupation is legitimate. The 777 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 6: dehumanizing Palestinians forever is okay, is necessary, is needed, is justified. 778 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 6: And when you have the world's biggest superpower, the US, 779 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 6: whether it's Obama or Biden or Trump, basically saying go 780 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 6: for your life. Here's more weapons. Israel's coming to Trump 781 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 6: today asking for at least eight billion dollars of more weapons, 782 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 6: and it's a good chance Trump will say yes to that. 783 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 6: So what the outcome of the meeting will be, of course, 784 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 6: it is the possible to predict. But the bigger picture 785 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 6: here is what the so called vision is for Palestine 786 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 6: and the fear of many Palestinians and many, I would say, 787 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 6: decent people around the world, is that the ultimate vision 788 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 6: here is endless occupation, dehumanization, which never, by the way, 789 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 6: brings peace to his relis. Yeah, none of it does. 790 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 6: In fact, life for them is never being more insecure. 791 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 6: In my view, never being more insecure. And I say 792 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 6: that as someone who's Jewish mussel. 793 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 4: Go ahead, guys, and put E two up on the screen. 794 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 4: To this point. 795 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: Trump was asked yesterday if he would support West Bank annexation, 796 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 2: and he said he wouldn't really say whether he supports 797 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 2: it or not. He said, I'm not going to talk 798 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 2: about that. It's certainly a small country in terms of land. 799 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: Talking about Israel, he then took out his pen and said, 800 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 2: you see this pen, this wonderful pen. My whole desk 801 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 2: is the Middle East, and the top of the pen 802 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: is Israel. That's not good. It's a pretty big difference. 803 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 2: It's a pretty small piece of land. And it's amazing 804 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 2: they've been able to do what they've been able to do. 805 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 2: As you mentioned, part of the project here of continued occupation, subjugation, 806 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 2: and assault of the Palestinian people has been a long 807 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 2: term project of dehumanization. You know, to bring it back 808 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 2: around to your documentary, how does the tech help to 809 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: facilitate that ongoing process of complete dehumanization. 810 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 6: Well, hugely, because one of the things we investigate in 811 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 6: the film, particularly in the second episode when we travel 812 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 6: the world, is there are multiple examples the US Mexico border, India, 813 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 6: the EU and Greece's detention, surveillance of migrants coming from 814 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 6: Turkey and elsewhere. The reality of South Africa today and 815 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 6: particularly when to South Africa, look at the connection in 816 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 6: the past between apartheid South Africa and Israel, but also 817 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 6: today between both countries, and so much of the surveillance 818 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,879 Speaker 6: and repressive tech that Israel's testing and using in Palestine 819 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 6: is deeply attractive to those countries. And obviously we could 820 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 6: have chosen many other examples. This is what is partly 821 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 6: fueling Israel's seeming impunity. India, for example, is the world's 822 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 6: biggest population country emoting it are very good friends and 823 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 6: there's a massive example and we detail this in the 824 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 6: film of India being inspired by how they is inspired 825 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 6: by Israel's repressing Palestinians and they want to use that 826 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 6: against the Muslim population, of which there are roughly two 827 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 6: hundred million people in India. So to see that tech 828 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 6: first use in Palestine now appearing, for example in India 829 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 6: on the US Mexico border at Greek detention centers backed 830 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 6: and funded by the EU. Mexico we visit, which is 831 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 6: the world's biggest and most obsessive user of Israeli spyware. 832 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 6: I mean, let's be clear, Mexico, whether it's controlled by 833 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 6: the right or left, they're equally obsessed with Israeli spyware. 834 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 6: This is the reality of I guess, the seeming appeal 835 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 6: of Israeli repressive tech. So when Trump talks about it 836 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 6: in his kind of weird explanation about the West Bank, 837 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 6: which to me sort of suggested that he supports Israel 838 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 6: having more land, therefore supporting annexation, I mean, let's be clear, 839 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 6: Israel as quasi annexed the West Bank anyway, I mean 840 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 6: we talk about I mean, it's important to say that 841 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 6: it hasn't been officially annexed, but having spent time there 842 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 6: in any Palestinian will say, I mean, Palestinian life in 843 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 6: the West Bank is deeply problematic, hard, and incredibly challenging. 844 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 6: Long before October seven. But certainly since so the fear 845 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 6: I have that many other nations are seeing what Israel 846 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 6: is doing in Gaza and the West Bank and also 847 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 6: in Israel proper, and they see it as attractive and 848 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 6: as the right and the far right increases its influence. 849 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 6: It's worth saying globally, places like France, Germany, Sweden, much 850 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 6: a lot of Europe. Now parts of the US parties, 851 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 6: particularly in Europe, but traditionally were literally neo Nazis view 852 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 6: Israel as a model. Now that might seem insane when 853 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 6: Israel is a Jewish state and there are quasi forma 854 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 6: or current groups and parties in Sweden, in France, in 855 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 6: Germany the traditionally how connected to the neo Nazis who 856 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 6: see Israel as a model. Why because they loathe multiculturalism, 857 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 6: they loathe Muslims. They believe in this concept of ethno nationalism. 858 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,919 Speaker 6: And the film touches on that. In say India, which 859 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 6: is in my view and many others, becoming an ethno 860 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 6: nationalist Hindu state, and Israeli tech is fueling that. Now 861 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 6: India is doing what it's doing for its own reason. 862 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 6: It's not doing it because of Israel, but Israeli tech 863 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 6: is central to that and we document in the film 864 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 6: how that impacts Indian population in reality, and that's a 865 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 6: scary fact. As the right and the far right grows 866 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 6: in popularity around the world. 867 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 2: Anthony to tell people where they can watch the film. 868 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 2: The first part of the series is out now, next 869 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 2: part comes out when so. 870 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 6: It's available on YouTube for free. It's our Dazira English. 871 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 6: It's available. Part one came out last week. It's on YouTube. 872 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 6: You can google it easy to find. It's on social media. 873 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,720 Speaker 6: It's on YouTube on our DEASEIIR website. Part two comes 874 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 6: out on februy the CIA. That will also be available 875 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 6: on YouTube. It's been seeing now hundreds of thousands of times, 876 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 6: and I encourage people to see because it will hopefully 877 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 6: scare you and push you into some kind of action 878 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 6: and not be paralyzed by fear. That's the idea. Anyway. 879 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting talking to you. 880 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you, Anthony. 881 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 6: Great to see. 882 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 3: Take care, thank you, Thank you guys so much for watching. 883 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: We appreciate it. 884 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 3: Great counterpoint show for you tomorrow. We'll see you then.