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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that all over the world people

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Speaker 2: do really cool stuff and that most of the time,

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Speaker 2: the way that good things happen is that some small

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Speaker 2: group of people says, we have a small to medium

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Speaker 2: sized problem and we're going to solve it, and then

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about how we solved it so

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Speaker 2: that other people can solve it in similar ways. That's

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Speaker 2: always the theme of the show. I'm your host, Margaret Kiltroy,

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Speaker 2: and my guest, one of my favorite returning guests is

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Speaker 2: Samantha McVay.

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Speaker 1: Him, I am okay. I think that's the sentiment that

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Speaker 1: we've decided on that we're not necessarily great, but we're

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Speaker 1: here and we're better than some so that's we're very privileged.

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Speaker 1: But thank you for inviting me. I needed to hear

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Speaker 1: cool things. So this is going to give me a

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Speaker 1: good pick me up. I think I'm excited.

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Speaker 2: I think so too. This is gonna be a really

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Speaker 2: posy episode. I feel really good about it, which is

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Speaker 2: funny because it comes out on the day of the

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Speaker 2: inauguration of Donald Trump. No, but we're in the past,

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Speaker 2: so we have nothing to worry about it to you

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Speaker 2: people in the future listening who might have a more

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Speaker 2: immediate problem. Samantha is the host of one of the

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Speaker 2: hosts of Stuff Mom Never Told You, which just did

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Speaker 2: an episode I was listening to while I was cooking

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Speaker 2: dinner right before this about women in the apocalypse. And

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of stuff. Maybe not all of it's

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Speaker 2: about women in the apocalypse, but that's the episode I

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Speaker 2: most recently listened to. How would you describe Stuff Mom

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Speaker 2: Never Told You.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a mixed bag about intersectional feminism, and

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Speaker 1: we talk about fictional things, nerdy things, political things, good things,

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Speaker 1: sad things, all the things. If it has something to

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Speaker 1: do with feminism, intersectionality, we're talking about it.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, well this one has more to do with

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Speaker 2: intersectionality than feminism, but it does have something to do

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Speaker 2: with feminism. Okay, So, about a month or so ago,

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Speaker 2: we did a bunch of episodes on a place called

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Speaker 2: Fountain House in New York City and the clubhouse model

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Speaker 2: for people with severe mental illness to use the medical term,

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Speaker 2: And this is a place that people can go back

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Speaker 2: and listen the episodes. But you know, for anyone who

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Speaker 2: hasn't heard it. It's a place where people who starting

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Speaker 2: and I would say the forties. I don't remember the

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Speaker 2: data anymore because I didn't put it in my script,

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Speaker 2: because it's from a previous episode started a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: A bunch of people who had gotten out of an

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Speaker 2: institution for psychiatric care got together and started a clubhouse

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Speaker 2: to build their own sense of agency and take care

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Speaker 2: of each other. And that has built since then into

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Speaker 2: this like international model for how to do psychiatric care

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Speaker 2: in a better way. And while I was researching those episodes,

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Speaker 2: I asked my friend who works at Fountain House, if

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Speaker 2: there was anything else he'd like to say, and he

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Speaker 2: told me that I really needed to look into a

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Speaker 2: place called Bethel House in Japan, and he told me

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Speaker 2: about his time there. He went and like learned to

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Speaker 2: see how they went there to learn how they did things,

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Speaker 2: and he was so impressed by what they were doing,

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Speaker 2: which in some ways he considered fundamentally more radical than

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Speaker 2: what he was doing with the clubhouse model. So I

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Speaker 2: went and ordered the only English language book on this

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Speaker 2: particular subject. It's by Karen Nakamura. It's called a Disability

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Speaker 2: of the Soul, an ethnography of schizophrenia and mental illness

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Speaker 2: in contemporary Japan. And it came packaged with a DVD

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Speaker 2: and I'm far too millennial, at do you have a

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Speaker 2: way to play DVDs?

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Speaker 1: You know, we were trying to figure this out. I

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Speaker 1: think my partner has like a Blu rape player. Okay,

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Speaker 1: unnecessarily because you know, sometimes they don't do well with DVDs. Ye,

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Speaker 1: They're okay to do it.

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Speaker 2: So maybe I got it. And I was like, what

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Speaker 2: the hell am I going to do with this frisbee

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Speaker 2: that's in the back of my book, you know. And

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Speaker 2: then fortunately for me, the document is also online. It's

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Speaker 2: called Bethel b E T H E L also by

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Speaker 2: Karen Nakamura, and so I was able to watch that too.

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Speaker 2: And so that book, plus a bunch of more recent

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Speaker 2: articles about the larger impact of Bethel House and an

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Speaker 2: interview I did a couple months ago with my friend

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Speaker 2: are my main sources for this episode. And I'm curious.

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of assuming not because in my mind these

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Speaker 2: are sort of niche topics. But have you heard of

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Speaker 2: have you heard of this at all?

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Speaker 1: No? No, I have never heard of this. I will

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Speaker 1: say my information for like Japanese culture is very limited,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know too much. So I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: to hear about this because I know like more for

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Speaker 1: like Asian abroad, Asia abroad, Asia abroad kind of there's

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Speaker 1: like attitude poor disabilities, I'll say it that way, more

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Speaker 1: so that I know about Japan in general. So this

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Speaker 1: is very very new and I'm excited to learn.

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Speaker 2: I'll be interested to know because yeah, I was able

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Speaker 2: to compare it to a little bit of what I

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Speaker 2: know about like European and North American models, But I

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Speaker 2: kind of assume, and maybe it's just a rud assumption,

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Speaker 2: I just sort of assume the Japanese models like fairly

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Speaker 2: different than the rest of East Asia because like I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I tend to think of Japan having a

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Speaker 2: more distinct culture right than people assume, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they I would definitely agree with that. I think

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Speaker 1: they have a very unique like just the culture in general,

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Speaker 1: and just what I know in general is just very

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Speaker 1: is unique to itself. There's a lot of blending, we

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Speaker 1: know this, but they also love being a little bit

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Speaker 1: on the outskirts of like outside of your typical what

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Speaker 1: you would think of as East Asian.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, traits that makes sense. And you know, I now

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Speaker 2: know a fair amount about psychiatric care in Japan over

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Speaker 2: the course of the past two thousand years, because I've

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Speaker 2: just read about it and put it into this script.

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Speaker 2: But I like don't know how it compares to the

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Speaker 2: rest of Asia. I only know it compares to North

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Speaker 2: America and Europe, so I'll be curious. But the shortest

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Speaker 2: version of this story, the story of Bethel House, is

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Speaker 2: that in the nineteen eighties, a bunch of former patients

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Speaker 2: of a psychiatric hospital in a very remote rural town

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Speaker 2: in northern Japan got together to support one another after

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Speaker 2: they've been discharged, and they were mostly folks dealing with schizophrenia.

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Speaker 2: Working hand in hand with social workers and doctors, they've

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Speaker 2: built an entirely new model on how to handle their

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Speaker 2: own mental illnesses and frankly a model of living and

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Speaker 2: working that anyone might be envious of. They've built a

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Speaker 2: huge number of worker owned businesses to support themselves financially

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Speaker 2: while also providing necessary services to their surrounding community. They've

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Speaker 2: developed a series of self study protocols that have gone

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Speaker 2: on to provide agency for people with all sorts of

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Speaker 2: disabilities in Japanese society all over the country.

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Speaker 1: Self study.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's going to be like kind of the last

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Speaker 2: thing we end up talking about on this episode.

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Speaker 1: But like, Okay, obviously you've already gotten me interested, Like hmm, intrigue.

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Speaker 2: No, the self study thing is so fascinating. And the

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Speaker 2: thing that's really interesting is it wasn't really an assimilationist model.

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Speaker 2: They didn't do this so that they could rejoin society

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Speaker 2: per se, but they also didn't do it to reject society.

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Speaker 2: They wanted to be able to do their own thing

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Speaker 2: in a way that works for them but also works

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Speaker 2: hand in hand with the rest of society, sort of

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Speaker 2: almost a like together we approach the rest of society

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Speaker 2: as a group, we can fit into society as individuals

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Speaker 2: were not doing so well, right, And I think they're

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Speaker 2: really cool. So I'm gonna talk about Bethel House.

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Speaker 1: I love this. I love this conversation because it makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Like we know what happened with

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Speaker 1: the disability population, and we know how bad of a

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Speaker 1: rep all of that can get, yeah, and how it

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Speaker 1: truly can be in general, But when you see it

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Speaker 1: in the hands and ownership of those people who are

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Speaker 1: being treated, it's probably a whole different conversation, and I

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Speaker 1: love that idea and model.

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Speaker 2: Exactly and the fact that like both the fountain House

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Speaker 2: model or the clubhouse model and the Bethel House model

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Speaker 2: both really come down to building agency for people. And

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Speaker 2: what's cool about it is that something I've run across

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Speaker 2: a bunch, like I used to. Right. I have another

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Speaker 2: podcast called Live Like the World is Dying, and it's

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Speaker 2: about preparedness, an individual and community preparedness, and one of

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Speaker 2: the main questions we get from from listeners is like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm disabled, how do I fit into preparedness?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And so we've done a lot of episodes around that,

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Speaker 2: and one of the things that's come up is when

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Speaker 2: we talk to disabled preppers is that it's not really

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Speaker 2: a like, oh, what can accommodations can be abled make

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Speaker 2: for disabled preppers? That's part of it, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: accommodations matter, right, But it's more like, oh, you all

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Speaker 2: are so much further along, how can we learn from you?

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Speaker 2: You know? And not in a like wow, you're so

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Speaker 2: inspiring way, but like a way likely.

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Speaker 1: Was that, but truly like putting into practice, like in

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Speaker 1: inability of like, oh this makes sense. Why didn't we

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Speaker 1: think of this type of way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so this fact that like all of

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Speaker 2: these folks dealing with all this stuff are learning how

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Speaker 2: agency is the key to not necessarily healing, but living

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Speaker 2: with the stuff that they live with. It's like that's

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Speaker 2: something that everyone should learn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, And I think we've all kind of

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Speaker 1: come to the point that we have to admit all

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Speaker 1: of us have a diagnosis. What that is maybe different

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Speaker 1: for each person on the different levels of the spectrum

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Speaker 1: whatever that might be, and that in understanding also that

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Speaker 1: those diagnoses should be in spectrums. Like I think we

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Speaker 1: really came into that big play in understanding a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about autism and understanding it as a spectrum

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Speaker 1: instead of being like, oh is this or this or this, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think we've really come far, not far enough, but

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Speaker 1: come far in that kind of conversation. We can have

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Speaker 1: a whole conversation about the DSM, but but just saying

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Speaker 1: in general, like being able to actually see that it

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Speaker 1: makes it. It makes a difference, It makes a difference

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Speaker 1: in how we approach it. And again, like I said,

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Speaker 1: we all need therapy. So yeah, this is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: No, totally, And like like when we talk about like neurotypical,

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Speaker 2: and people are like, what the hell is neurotypical? You know,

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Speaker 2: or like certainly in contrast to certain things like some

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Speaker 2: people have add and some people don't right right, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then there's like a spectrum and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But like that person without a d D, there's no normal, Like,

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Speaker 2: no one's brain is just like I'm the normal brain.

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Speaker 2: My name is John Smith. I don't know if you're

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Speaker 2: listening to your name, John Smith, I'm not accusing you

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Speaker 2: of a normal brain. Don't worry all all of y'all. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: all John Smith's. Everyone else crazy John Smith's. They're good

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Speaker 2: well normal, Yeah, and you know that's really something to

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Speaker 2: be proud of, and which is kind of Oh, we're

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Speaker 2: going to get to it. I love how this this

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Speaker 2: one's going to mix like mad Pride, but without a

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Speaker 2: complete rejection of I don't know whatever anyway, Okay, so

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Speaker 2: this story.

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Speaker 1: I'm ready for it, all right.

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Speaker 2: For the longest time, people with mental health issues in

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Speaker 2: Japan were more or less confined to the home, with

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Speaker 2: some certain exceptions of very rich people, but also some

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Speaker 2: of the very rich people were also confined to the home.

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Speaker 2: From the medieval period, at least to around nineteen fifty

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Speaker 2: or so. This was the case if people with mental

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Speaker 2: health issues were out and about, that was disruptive and

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Speaker 2: it would bring shame to the family, so people had

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Speaker 2: to stay at home. One of the while I was

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Speaker 2: like researching all this part of it, I have to say,

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Speaker 2: one of the traditional cures in Japanese society for mental

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Speaker 2: health issues actually is kind of interesting from the medieval era,

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Speaker 2: and the idea was you're being affected by spirits, which

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Speaker 2: is not particularly different from Western conceptions at the time.

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Speaker 2: I want to be really clear upfront when I'm like,

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Speaker 2: Japan as a country did all this bad stuff, like

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Speaker 2: so did everywhere. I have talked about Western countries being

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Speaker 2: horrible about this stuff too. I'm not trying to exceptionalize

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Speaker 2: Japan around this, but save this idea that you're being

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Speaker 2: affected by spirits, and one of the really good ways

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Speaker 2: to get rid of these spirits was to meditate and

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Speaker 2: rest so much that you were so boring that the

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Speaker 2: spirits would move on. And like, I bet that works

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Speaker 2: a lot of the time. Like you know, like because

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Speaker 2: a lot of problems are caused by anxiety, not all

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Speaker 2: of them, but like you know.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't help for sure, it definitely eggs things on

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Speaker 1: a little extra.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you know, I bet quiet meditation, you know,

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Speaker 2: whether the metaphor is literal or not. Locking people up

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Speaker 2: in their house though, was probably way less effective, and

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Speaker 2: they weren't being locked up for their sake. They were

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Speaker 2: being locked up for the sake of society and for

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Speaker 2: the family. During the Meiji Restoration of the late nineteenth century,

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Speaker 2: which is when Japan tried to modernize, like just as

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Speaker 2: fast as they could doctors in Japan, we're like looking

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Speaker 2: to the West about like, oh, how should we do

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Speaker 2: psychiatric stuff? And they studied German methods of care, and

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Speaker 2: so for like a century, patience notes would be written

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Speaker 2: in German, kind of in the same way that in

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Speaker 2: the West you'd see people like writing in Latin, like

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Speaker 2: centuries beyond it makes any sense to write in Latin

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Speaker 2: just because it's like the specific culture of a specific

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Speaker 2: profession or whatever, you know. But one profession that I

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Speaker 2: totally value and did not mean to ignore was that

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Speaker 2: of both a podcast producer and a podcast editor. And

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Speaker 2: our podcast producer is Sophie Lichterman, who you've probably noticed

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Speaker 2: isn't on this call.

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Speaker 1: I miss you.

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Speaker 2: I know, but our audio engineer is still Rory, and

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Speaker 2: everyone has to say hi to Rory. Hi, Rory Hi,

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Speaker 2: Rory Hi. And our theme music was written for us

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Speaker 2: by oone woman. And Sophie is thinking to herself right now,

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Speaker 2: this is why I have to be on, because Margaret

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Speaker 2: forgot to do the credits until like good ten minutes

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Speaker 2: in or something like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I thought you were just doing a good

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Speaker 1: teaser at the beginning, you know, that's what we were

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Speaker 1: trying to do.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like a cold open. Oh totally, I'm very professional.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you're just switching it up in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, yeah, exactly, keeping everyone on their toes.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have no idea when you're listening that

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Speaker 2: you're going to be commanded to say hi to Rory.

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Speaker 1: And I will always say hi to Rory I know,

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Speaker 1: whom I've never actually officially met, but hello.

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Speaker 2: Yeah TYRORI. So during the Meiji restoration, you start getting

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Speaker 2: psychiatric hospitals opening up, but they're basically just for the rich,

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Speaker 2: and honestly, it's not much better than being at home.

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Speaker 2: And this is the pre antipsychotics era, So this is

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Speaker 2: the era of lobotomies and electroshock and ice baths and

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Speaker 2: all the stuff, all the things that are in horror

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Speaker 2: movies because of how people were treated and it wasn't

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Speaker 2: good for them. In nineteen hundred, Japan passed a law

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Speaker 2: that said that people dealing with mental illnesses were legally

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Speaker 2: the responsibility of their families, not like the state. People

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Speaker 2: built prison cells in their own home. An author named

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Speaker 2: at Saratotsuka wrote about the attitude towards people at the time. Quote,

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Speaker 2: mental illness was regarded as genetic, incurable, impossible to understand,

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Speaker 2: and dangerous. As a result, the mentally ill were thought

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Speaker 2: to be a disgrace to the family. The Japanese did

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Speaker 2: not want to talk about them, did not want to

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Speaker 2: see them, to hear about them, to get married to them,

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Speaker 2: and they did not want to employ them. And I'm curious, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so you know, I promise i'd tell you kind of

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Speaker 2: Japan's attitude. We'll talk about nineteen fifty it switched, but

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Speaker 2: like that's where we're at so far. I'm curious if

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Speaker 2: you know how it compares to anything else.

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Speaker 1: Well, I will say just in general when I think

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Speaker 1: about mental health, and I leaned towards South Korea because

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Speaker 1: obviously that's my heritage and I don't know much about it.

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Speaker 1: But they do have like higher rates of death by

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Speaker 1: suicide outside of more countries. So in general, they kind of,

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Speaker 1: like most Asian ideals, try to ignore the ugly pars

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Speaker 1: and hope will go away. That's what I seem to

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Speaker 1: be noticing. I haven't really studied much about like attitudes

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Speaker 1: with diagnoses such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or any

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Speaker 1: of that. It could be partially because that's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of diagnosis to that. Maybe I'm wrong. I think

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Speaker 1: the diagnosis maybe a lot more misdiagnosis, maybe up until

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Speaker 1: not too long ago. Again, maybe not, because having a

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Speaker 1: diagnosis is not always great according to society, see to

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Speaker 1: actually have it to be diagnosed. Work culture in itself

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Speaker 1: in South Korea specifically, is really harsh and really hard

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Speaker 1: to navigate. Sometimes even getting a job. I think it's

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Speaker 1: gotten really difficult and getting a job is so hard,

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Speaker 1: like the prejudice that lies in getting a job. You

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Speaker 1: might be too old and too old maybe forties for

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Speaker 1: a job, or you might not be well enough educated

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Speaker 1: or gone to the right colleges. They're very particular in that.

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Speaker 1: So to me, what I've seen is that they have

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Speaker 1: to address and all of Korean people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of needing to be addressed of

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Speaker 1: the basics before they even are willing to talk about

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Speaker 1: actual problems like that. So, and I could be wrong.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling there's probably groups who have actually

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Speaker 1: done a lot of work that I haven't discovered yet,

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Speaker 1: So I apologize to them for not discovering them. But

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Speaker 1: it's not a very good look. Like I would not

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Speaker 1: want to be in South Korea if I had an

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Speaker 1: actual proper diagnosis, just because of the stigma that could

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Speaker 1: attach to itself and other people's judgments of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that makes sense, And I think that is.

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Speaker 2: I can't speak as much for contemporary Japan because my research,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of goes up to a certain point,

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Speaker 2: but like, I think that that's a similar thing, and

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Speaker 2: there's there's probably nowhere in the world where it's like,

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Speaker 2: well that's not true. There's all kinds of non modernized

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Speaker 2: societies in which actually there's a very different view of

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Speaker 2: what we call mental illness. Right, And then I even

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Speaker 2: like I didn't end up writing to the script. I

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Speaker 2: spent a while reading all of these sort of academic

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Speaker 2: arguments about whether or not it even is fair to

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Speaker 2: say that a Japanese patient has schizophrenia versus like a

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Speaker 2: different cultural conception of exactly what that means. And one

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Speaker 2: of the things that is interesting and does play into it,

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Speaker 2: and I might end up repeating myself because this might

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Speaker 2: be in the script but I don't remember, is that

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Speaker 2: the psychiatric illnesses in this context, in Japanese context, at

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Speaker 2: least as I was reading about it, include things like alcoholism,

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Speaker 2: They include substance abuse, and they also include intellectual disabilities.

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Speaker 2: You know, people have issues with certain types of learning

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Speaker 2: and other things like that, and they're all kind of

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Speaker 2: lumped together, and it creates an interesting mix and a

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Speaker 2: different way of mixing it than you know happens in

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Speaker 2: North America. And yeah, like what we call schizophrenia or

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Speaker 2: psychosis or all of these things are always changing, you know.

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Speaker 2: But what ended up happening so for a long long time,

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Speaker 2: people in Japanese society who are dealing with these issues

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Speaker 2: are blocked away in the home and sometimes physically locked away.

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Speaker 2: They're called bird cages. The cells that people would build

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Speaker 2: in their own homes because they were legally the responsibility

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Speaker 2: of the state, and that law in nineteen hundred was

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Speaker 2: just codifying a thing that already existed. People already knew

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Speaker 2: it was the family's responsibility. And that started to change

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Speaker 2: around nineteen fifty or so. You get mass institutionalization. Each

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Speaker 2: prefect is building its own hospitals, and patients are now

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Speaker 2: legally the state's responsibility instead of the families. And there's

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Speaker 2: like basically like the copay for mental health care becomes

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Speaker 2: about five percent and the state is picking up the rest.

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Speaker 2: But this isn't really making anything better. This is a

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Speaker 2: lateral move. As far as I can tell, people were

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Speaker 2: put into facilities for extended stays, many of them more

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Speaker 2: or less permanently. What's interesting about this timing is this

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Speaker 2: is right when deinstitutionalization hits the West, which was also

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Speaker 2: not perfect. But basically this is like the US, Europe,

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Speaker 2: and South America, at least those are the places I've

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Speaker 2: read about. It was like institutionalization is bad, and so

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Speaker 2: they managed to get everyone freed from the hospitals. But famously,

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Speaker 2: all those countries, all those areas are very capitalist, and

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Speaker 2: so the people were deinstitutionalized and not provided with resources,

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Speaker 2: and so it was actually bad in a mess.

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Speaker 1: You're right. I mean that's kind of the tails all

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Speaker 1: the time that continues, people perpetuated, whether we're talking about

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Speaker 1: foster care systems, whether we're talking about treatment centers for

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Speaker 1: young young kids for rehabilitation. The amount of aftercare that's

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Speaker 1: given is so limited. I mean we could just say

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Speaker 1: that about women who have children, yeah, totally, or not

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Speaker 1: just women, but people who have babies. Their care maybe

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Speaker 1: six weeks. Yeah, and that's if you are under a

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Speaker 1: threshold oftentimes and you ask for help. Like, it's such

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Speaker 1: a sad when you talk about the need of after

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Speaker 1: care for any and almost everything and the lack of

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Speaker 1: I mean that the whole idea of pro life is

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Speaker 1: that as long as you have that thing, we don't

401
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Speaker 1: give a shit afterwards. So you do you? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the entire attitude. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, But you know who does care about you? Samantha mcfing.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling're gonna lie to me, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna listen.

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Speaker 2: I am gonna lie to you because I'm going to

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Speaker 2: tell you that the products and services that support the

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00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,479
Speaker 2: show care about you. But that's not true. But if

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Speaker 2: it makes you feel any better, listener, They don't care

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Speaker 2: about anything, and except sometimes we get ads for like

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Speaker 2: genuinely good stuff. So you know what, listener, it's a

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00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: toss up. I'm not saying what's coming is good or bad.

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Speaker 2: It's up to you to determine how you feel about it.

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Speaker 1: I'd be good for you.

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Speaker 2: All we can say about these ads is that they

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Speaker 2: had enough money to give us money to play their advertisements,

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Speaker 2: and here they are. So we're back. And Japan is

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Speaker 2: starting to put people into hospitals and I think it

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Speaker 2: is still, but I'm not certain because most of my

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Speaker 2: sources about this are at least ten years old or

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Speaker 2: about ten years old. Japan is or was one of

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Speaker 2: the leaders of the world of the length of stays

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Speaker 2: and the amount of medication it puts mental patients on.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear, I'm not about to start talking

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Speaker 2: in anti medication. This is Bethelhouse is not an anti

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Speaker 2: medication movement, but it is a movement that will often

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Speaker 2: but not always, believe in using a much more moderate

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Speaker 2: amount of medication instead of the sometimes excessive tranquilization of

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Speaker 2: patients and institutions in Japan. From their perspective, so just

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Speaker 2: want to be upfront that I'm not coming out anti medication,

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Speaker 2: but I'm talking about how it can be used in

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Speaker 2: excess by society that wants to just lock people away

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Speaker 2: and not let them interact with the world. The Japanese

434
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: language around instaut utionalization doesn't even really translate to institutionalization,

435
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: but instead to detention. At least you're at this point

436
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties, when it's kicking in

437
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: and it's big business. It is full of people cutting

438
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: costs at the expense of the care provided. There were

439
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 2: also I can't do an episode of the show without

440
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 2: somehow to point out that eugenics is a part of

441
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: every nightmare thing that's ever happened. There were at least

442
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand non consensual sterilizations of patients, mostly of women,

443
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: during the twentieth century as Japan caught onto the West's

444
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: eugenics craze. Ironically, institutionalization in Japan and deinstitutionalization in the

445
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: West came from the same source. The first generation of

446
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 2: antipsychotic medications that showed up on the scene, like thorazine

447
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: actually a thing that I learned that I had no

448
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: idea a lot of the Western conception of a like

449
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: a drooling mental patient who wanders around or whatever. That's

450
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: actually a result of the medication, and that's a result

451
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: of thorisin.

452
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: Right, and or the lobotomy.

453
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, vitual electroshock. Yeah, it's not a result of mental illness.

454
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: It is a result of the things that people have

455
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: done to.

456
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: Them, the treatment that they're like, this is going to

457
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 1: help them, Oh, this is just going to immobilize them completely,

458
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: let's do that.

459
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Thorisene allowed people to be a little bit

460
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: more stable, and so they were allowed out of the

461
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: institutions in the West. But in Japan it was like, oh,

462
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: thank god, we can finally afford to hospitalize people because

463
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 2: we don't need nearly as much medical staff since people

464
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: are more stable, like you used to need just a

465
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: higher percentage, like you needed more orderlies and stuff per

466
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: patient before Thorisen. Basically, you're also in post war Japan,

467
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: which is modernizing. People are moving into cities, people are

468
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: moving into nuclear family units, so you no longer have

469
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: a big rural family that can have a sell to

470
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: lock up your uncle or whatever in home prison. You

471
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: said that, so naturally, no, I know, it's funny because

472
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: it's like actually wrote a version of this paragraph before

473
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: I read about the like nineteen hundreds law about like

474
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: literally locking people up in the home. Like I thought

475
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: it was just like, oh, don't let uncle Dan out

476
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: he yells in public. But it's like no, really, no

477
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 2: Uncle Dan is in a cell. It just happens to

478
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: be in a family's house.

479
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

480
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: Deinstitutionalization did hit Japan soon enough, starting around in the

481
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. It just didn't hit as hard. And this

482
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: was thanks to a bunch of different stuff. One of

483
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: them is second generation antipsychotics, which were generally better right.

484
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 2: One of them is because of budget cuts, and one

485
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: of the reasons is because of a movement towards patient

486
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: rights and autonomy. Also, a hospital turned out to have

487
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: been basically farming brains for research at a local university.

488
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: See this is where the horror stories begin. Yeah, this

489
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: is where your horror movie you know that's coming.

490
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they caught a place where patients were missed

491
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: seriously dying and then other patients were getting told to

492
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: do the autopsies to remove their brains and then get

493
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: them to a research institution. And it was a big scandal.

494
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 2: I can't imagine why. Yeah, God, I if only there

495
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: was a show about bad stuff, I would totally do

496
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: a whole thing on that. But there's no shows about

497
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 2: bad things. People only like shows about good stuff. That's

498
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: why there's all the I'm trying to come up the

499
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: inverse of true good crimes. That's the whole thing. People

500
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: just tell really good stories about breaking laws but in

501
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: a good way.

502
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: Wasn't that John Krazinsky's whole thing about good news or something,

503
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: and then he sold it for a lot of money

504
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: when it was supposed to be like a free anyway.

505
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, good work if you can get it.

506
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: Ah, God, I mean, good on you. Someone give me

507
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: money anyway. But yeah, we should have one of those

508
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: where we just talk about bad things. I do not

509
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: have a person who tells us all the besters of

510
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: the world.

511
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a shame that there's no podcast about like

512
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: what happens behind the bastards. So so that's the backdrop

513
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: of mental health in Japan. And I know less about

514
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: the twenty first century because my story most of what

515
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: I know ends at around twenty ten. I know some

516
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: stuff about like twenty fifteen. I know some of the

517
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: like really modern stuff, but only about Bethel House. So

518
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: that's the backdrop of mental health. But what about the

519
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: actual town that it's going to happen in. What about Urukawa.

520
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: Urukawa is this desolate small town in northern Japan. It

521
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: is full of abandoned buildings. It used to be you

522
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: could take trains for about fourteen hours from Tokyo to

523
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: reach it. But in twenty fifteen, See, I told you

524
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: I know some modern stuff. In twenty fifteen, I was

525
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: looking up how did people get there? Anyway? In twenty

526
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: fifteen the railroad was damaged by storms and no one

527
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: has fixed it. Oh no, there's a bus service that

528
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: gets there, but you can no longer take the train there.

529
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: Ten or twenty years ago, fifteen thousand people lived in

530
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: this town. Now it's down to twelve thousand. It's a

531
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: fairly fast rate of population decline. Why, I'll tell you, Okay,

532
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: we'll get there. It is remote both geographically and culturally.

533
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: It's on the southeastern coast of the island of Hokkaido,

534
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: which is that northernmost island of Japan and the second

535
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: biggest in the archipelago. Hakkaido is about the size of Ireland.

536
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: For people's comparison or Ireland is about the size of Hakkaido,

537
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: depending on where you're from. Urukawa means the river of

538
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: Fog in the Ainu language, and it feels sort of

539
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: symbolic of the whole thing that's going to happen there

540
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: in a weird way. But maybe I just like symbolism,

541
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: like you know, like I don't know, living in the

542
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: river of Fog is really interesting to do.

543
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you are a writer, so that makes sense.

544
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fair enough. And I want to talk about

545
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: why Urukawa is not named in Japanese but instead of

546
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: i New language, because Akaido wasn't part of Japan until

547
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds until the Meiji Restoration. It was

548
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: a place where the indigenous I Knew people lived, mostly

549
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: hunting and fishing and not really farming at all. The

550
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: Iknew people have lived on the archipelago since at least

551
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: ten thousand years ago and are the indigenous popular and

552
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: an indigenous population. This is in contrast to the Yamato Japanese,

553
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: which is the main Japanese ethnic group that makes it

554
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: more than ninety eight percent of the population. The Imatto

555
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: mostly came over from the mainland about fifteen hundred years ago.

556
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: Haikaido was actually first colonized by the Russians, not the Japanese,

557
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: and the Japanese Empire was like, ah, fuck, no, you

558
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: can't have that. They can't come anywhere near here, so

559
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: they sort of counter colonized. This is not a defense

560
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: of what the Japanese did.

561
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: So they were the first ones, is what you're trying

562
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: to say.

563
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but they they did it a lot more

564
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: and worse because succeeded. The Russians probably would it too.

565
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,239
Speaker 2: I don't know. The other thing that ties into all

566
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: of this area that's going to tie into today's story

567
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: is that Bethel House is vaguely Christian. It is not

568
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: officially religious at all, but Japanese Christianity is woven throughout

569
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: it and its story. And Bethel House started at a

570
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: church and many of its members are Christian. So now

571
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about Christianity in the region.

572
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: Oh good, I was gonna say. When you originally said

573
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Bethel House, I imagined it would be like a Southern

574
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: children's home hmm, or a South Korean children's soul, like

575
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: something along those lines of which, like American people are

576
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: able to able to pick out their children, yeah, or

577
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: put away their children one of those two things.

578
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: No, totally. I mean it's so funny because it's like

579
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: anytime you talk about anything with Christianity, you're about to

580
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: either describe some of the worst things that have ever

581
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: happened in the history of the world, or like an

582
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: oddly good thing that happened, you know.

583
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because of the But yeah, bethel houses like

584
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: that is definitely not a Japanese term.

585
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: No, it comes from Old Hebrew exactly. Yeah, Bethel means

586
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: house of God in Old Hebrew, which I think is

587
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: fun because then it means that Bethel house means house

588
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: of God house. And this amuses me about as much

589
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: as like table mesa in Colorado, which means table table,

590
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: and it makes me happy. They're like that masa is

591
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: particularly flat. Is like a table, looks like a table

592
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: that's neat. Yeah. So Christianity is very, very much a

593
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: minority religion in Japan. About one point five percent of

594
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: Japan as Christian, which is about the same percentage as

595
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 2: Muslims in the US. Muslims in the US are one

596
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: point three four percent, which means it's a minority, a

597
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: very small minority. But like you probably know you know

598
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: you are, or or know someone who is. You know,

599
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: it's not like an unheard of thing, right. Buddhism and

600
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: Shintoism are far more popular of religions. Christianity had a

601
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: rocky start in Japan. Some Catholics showed up in the

602
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: fifteen hundreds, and they ran into the problem that Catholics

603
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: run into everywhere. Local leaders did not want to share

604
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: power with a pope who lived far away. A bunch

605
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: of Catholics, mostly Japanese folks, with a few Europeans thrown in,

606
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: were crucified in fifteen ninety seven, and then not too

607
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: long after that, a bunch of Catholic peasants joined this

608
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: huge uprising against oppressive rule, and that led to forty

609
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: thousand people being beheaded in the Shimabara Rebellion, which is

610
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: one of those things I want to know more about

611
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: and maybe we'll get its own episodes one day. And

612
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: they weren't as is sort of popularly understood, as far

613
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: as far as I can tell, they weren't really like

614
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: the people who started the rebellion wasn't the Catholics, but

615
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: they joined in and it was like a bunch of peasants.

616
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: Catholics went deep underground for hundreds of years after that.

617
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: Christianity didn't really come back until the nineteenth century, and

618
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: then it was fairly repressed until the Allies forced freedom

619
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: of religion to Japan's new constitution after World War Two.

620
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: During the prosecution that they faced during the war, all

621
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: Christians in Japan were thrown together into a single organization

622
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: called the United Church of Christ in Japan. When I

623
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: read things like that, I'm like, but there's got to

624
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: been like some other group that was like nah or

625
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: her own thing.

626
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: You know.

627
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: Whenever I read like an absolute or like a first

628
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: or something, I'm always skeptical. Right a Kaido where the

629
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: I Knew people lived the island up north, they had

630
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: their own religious practices. They were primarily animist. When Russia colonized,

631
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: they made a few, but not a ton of converts

632
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: to Russian Orthodoxy. So that's kind of where Christianity first

633
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: hits Hakaido. Then Japan invaded and drove out the Russians

634
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: and the indigenous I Knew people and forced Buddhism to

635
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: replace Christianity in the area. The Meiji government declared the

636
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: whole island empty and the property of the emperor. Empty Yeah, taranalis.

637
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: I know whether they actually use the Latin phrase, it's

638
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: always translated as terranolus, which is funny because it's not

639
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: an English phrase, but it's like a Latin phrase, you know. Yeah,

640
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: but yeah, the empty land. Nothing there, just some people

641
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: who've lived there.

642
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

643
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: I don't really like colonization.

644
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan.

645
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so much so that I love it. I'm just kidding.

646
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: I might even go so far as to say I'm

647
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: anti you know what, I know, the wild how could you?

648
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 2: The name Hakkaido means the road north, and that's what

649
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: Japan named it because they were like, this is a

650
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: stepping stone for the expansion of our empire, and the

651
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: Americans helped them do it. Yeah, the Americans who showed

652
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: up further started Christianizing a bit, which is really funny

653
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: because the Japanese like showed up and immediately were like

654
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: burning all the crosses and trying to get everyone out,

655
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: you know, all the like Christian stuff out. But then

656
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: they let Americans into help, and so then Americans started

657
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: bringing Christianity and then also kind of like all over

658
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: the world. One of the messier parts of colonization but

659
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: still not an okay thing is that the colonizers themselves

660
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: tended to be marginalized people, right, Like a lot of

661
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: the Japanese colonizers of South Korea were you know, poorer, right, right,

662
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: and like then went and became absolute evil bastards in

663
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: South Korea, and like, you know, the history of the

664
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: United States is a history of religiously persecuted minorities who

665
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: are terrible, right, although actually I think that the prosecution

666
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: that the Puritans faced is exaggerated.

667
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: But that's my own Oh, like, that's a different conversation

668
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: we need to be having.

669
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: I just really hate Oliver Cromwell because of what he

670
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: did to Ireland, and so like anytime that's fair, Yeah.

671
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: That's fair. I'm not white, so I don't have anything

672
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: to say to that, but you know what, I'm on

673
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: your side.

674
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, fair enough, whereas I have to get out

675
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: all my guilt as much as possible, you know, yeah,

676
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,479
Speaker 2: I like it. So some of the people who showed

677
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: up toes Hakkaido were Japanese Christians, right, because mainland Japan

678
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: was like, we don't want you, get the hell out

679
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: of here, go displace some other people, and Hakaido isn't

680
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: like the hotbed of Christianity in Japan. I know, I've

681
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: just painted like three different ways that Christianity showed up there,

682
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 2: but like it still isn't like Western Japan has more

683
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: of the tiny Christian population. But that's how it ended

684
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: up there. And a bunch of Christian Japanese folks settled

685
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: a town called Urukawa at the close of the nineteenth century,

686
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 2: and so Urukawa has been a Christian town since its start.

687
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: But you know what, probably isn't religiously affiliated. And if

688
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: it is, it's because something slipped past our filters that

689
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 2: try to prevent political or religious ads. We said no

690
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: to that, our advertisers. I almost feel bad for our

691
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: advertisers because we like try to limit there's so many

692
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: categories of ads. We're like no, not that you know

693
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 2: that's true. We have to say no so often. Yeah,

694
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 2: but you should say no to these sweet sweet deals instead.

695
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 2: You should use your own critical thinking to determine whether

696
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: or not they are applicable to you. And we're back, okay,

697
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: And then to make all of this stuff about Christianity

698
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: and colonization even messier. Christianity was a major anti colonial

699
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: force in Hakkaido. Really Yeah, it wasn't a particularly radical

700
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: anti colonial force. It was a little bit more assimilationist.

701
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: But the Christian Inu movement fought for equal rights for

702
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: I New people in in a fairly assimilationist way, but

703
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: it built a lot of the I New pride. And

704
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: it's like I've run across this in a bunch of

705
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: different places where like some syncretic Christian practices will end

706
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: up being part of fighting against the Usually it's like

707
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: other Christian invaders, you know. So it's like both sides

708
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: are Christians now and they're fighting each other, you know.

709
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: I mean, is it one of those where they're trying

710
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: to take credit for it, like take things from their

711
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: culture and its culture and being like, no, we did it.

712
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: Let me let me sell this for you.

713
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: I don't know the book that I read, which I belie.

714
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: I got the impression that the author of the book

715
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: I read was probably not Christian, but was like trying

716
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: to be very respectful of the fact that Bethel is

717
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: Christian and a lot of what they know it's not Christian,

718
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: it has a lot of Christians in it, and like

719
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: that is like meaningful to a lot of its participants.

720
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: So I couldn't tell you for certain, because then the

721
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 2: other thing that's complicated, right, is that often anti colonial

722
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: stuff it's Christian is people of the indigenous group who

723
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: are Christian doing those things.

724
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: Right.

725
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: We tend to think of like the Christian as like

726
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: just the invader themselves, right, the colonizer, the missionary, right,

727
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: But it's like they're very often also people from that

728
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: region who have taken on this religion. I it's messy,

729
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: and I suspect that part of the reason they did

730
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 2: the kind of Christian version. It probably helped that Christianity

731
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: was a marginalized religion in Japan, but it was one

732
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: with a lot of international support. So I feel like

733
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 2: it might have been like a like, hey, we're tied

734
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: into the bigger world too, right, right, This is conjecture

735
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: on my part. I don't know.

736
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the missionaries they knew what they were doing.

737
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: They are successful for a reason in that spreading of

738
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: Western Christianity. The amount of like propaganda that is tied

739
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: to it, as well as the work, as well as

740
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: like of course like you know, oh, we're here to

741
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: help you, but you also have to believe Jesus, like

742
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: we'll give you food if you say you're a follower

743
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: of Jesus.

744
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: So totally they knew what they were doing. Yeah, Now,

745
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: I would like I would absolutely read just an entire

746
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: book about specifically the Christian I knew movement and how

747
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: it does and doesn't relate to anti colonial movement, you know.

748
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: But I would need to read one that isn't just

749
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: Christian propaganda like you know, right, but also one that

750
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 2: isn't just like specifically anti Christian propaganda, you know. Yeah. Anyway,

751
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: I suspect I will need to learn how to read

752
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: more languages before I can do much more of the

753
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: scholarly work that I would like to do. Also, one

754
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: more thing I want to say about I new culture,

755
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: because actually most of the people are not getting marked

756
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: by their ethnicity and the stuff that I'm reading. But

757
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: I do know that a lot of new people were

758
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: involved in early Bethel House, and so the implication is

759
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: that this town that was settled by Japanese Christians also

760
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: had an a new population and they're like part of

761
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: all of this. But I don't know the ethnicity of individuals.

762
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: And to set the scene about how mental health was

763
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 2: treated differently in Hakkaido as compared to mainland Japan, and

764
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: I knew culture there was a condition someone could have

765
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: called EMU. I am you, and this is basically to

766
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: be sort of possessed, have seizures, speak in voices, stuff

767
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: like this. But it wasn't considered a sickness, nora a

768
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: like magic power of the everything's amazing whatever. Right, it

769
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: was just a thing that happens, and it overlaps with

770
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: shamanism within their you know, within their culture, right, but

771
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: it's it isn't the same. Not everyone with this is

772
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: a shaman. Not every shaman has this, like whatever. If

773
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: a leader has IMU, they aren't like taken out of leadership.

774
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: They're just ignored and or sometimes laughed at while they're

775
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: under the immediate effects. So it's just seeing as like, well,

776
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, some people just like do stuff that's different, okay,

777
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: m hm. And I really like that. I really like

778
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: how it's not like because there's this I'll get to

779
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: it in a second. And then interestingly, people under EMU

780
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: aren't held liable for their actions under it. Right, it

781
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: was used by people, especially marginalized women, to speak out

782
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: about what was happening to them, and then it was

783
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: also used by the Anu to speak out against Japanese imperialism,

784
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: and I would say that there's this this over emphasis

785
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: in pop anthropology to be like, oh, in pre civilized culture,

786
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 2: neurodiversion people were all like shamans and respected, right, But

787
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: there's a kernel of truth, but not a lot of truth.

788
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: It's like just way messier. A lot of neurodiversion people

789
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: were like killed or shunned. It's completely different between every

790
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: different society, right, and other times people were accepted and

791
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 2: not seen a special for it just different. Other times

792
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: individuals might end up wind up as shamans as a

793
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: result of their ability to perceive things differently. And it

794
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: is complicated instead of simple. You look skeptical, you.

795
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: Know, just waiting. Oh, I don't know why. I do

796
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: feel like I feel like every now and then when

797
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: I listen, especially when it comes to like the imperialism

798
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: and all the culture, and I'm like, is it I

799
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: know your stories are good, but yet I'm still waiting

800
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: for the sad parts.

801
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, fair enough. Yeah, No, there's not actually, I

802
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: mean the sad part here is like what's not quite

803
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: being written directly textually, which is the like I know

804
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: people are oppressed as shit, right, right, right, That's what

805
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, Yeah, no, they are sorry. And sometimes it's

806
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: like it's funny because I'm like in my head, I'm like, well,

807
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: everyone knows colonization is bad. I don't need to get

808
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: into the details. But it's like there are so many

809
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: things from like the nineteen thirties where people are like

810
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 2: fortunately I knew people will be completely gone in two generations, right,

811
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 2: or like like people just like being like I can't

812
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: wait till that language is gone. And the language is

813
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: considered critically endangered, and it's also a language isolate, like

814
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: no one has a route that they claim, no one

815
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: can trace it to a different pre right.

816
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: We did an episode about indigenous women and Native women

817
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: trying to save languages, and of course we didn't make it.

818
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: I didn't make it all the way. It was so

819
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: hard that just trying to be in like North America

820
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: and talking about the different languages that people and especially

821
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: women Native women are trying to save. It is intense

822
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: and the fact that like a lot of governments have

823
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: blocked the ability for those communities to call it a

824
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: language in general, like an actual language, yeah, to be saved,

825
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: And it makes me really sad, But yeah, this site

826
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: makes complete sense obviously, because you have to have I

827
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: forgot the number, just like much of everything I research.

828
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: After I talked about it, it goes out of my head. Yeah, numbers,

829
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: But like it has to be like thousands and thousands

830
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: of people who speak currently speak the language fluently, Like

831
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: it can't just be your learning you had no a

832
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: few things. It has to be like fluent that could

833
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: be your first language. For them to call that a

834
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: language to preserve it's so sad. It's so sad because

835
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: all of it's so beautiful, I know, and.

836
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: Like I cannot imagine looking at the world and being

837
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: like I wish there was less diversity here. You didn't know,

838
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: like do you just want to be bored? I don't

839
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: get it, Like the world is so clearly better when

840
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 2: there are like so many languages and so many different

841
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: ways of being people, and like I just I can't

842
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: wrap my head around it.

843
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 1: I can't either. I mean, honestly, when we talked about

844
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: when I was on the last time we were talking

845
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: about the Teano people, that kind of started like the

846
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: opening the rabbit hole of like, yeah, I don't know

847
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: much about this culture, and then talking about how they're

848
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: trying to preserve their language and how difficult it's been

849
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: in being able to use any type of federal funds

850
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: or actual get assistance to be able to say their language.

851
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: And then we're talking about obviously the people of Hawaii

852
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: and all of their language, as well as the fact

853
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 1: that Mallori people were I think the most successful of

854
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: being able to preserve their language, and a lot of

855
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: people are trying to follow their model. But it's it's

856
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: really sad and I hate it.

857
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: No, I agree, I hate it. Have you ever seen

858
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: the movie Kneecap No, It's about an Irish language hip

859
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 2: hop group.

860
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel about this. Keep going.

861
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: I am in favor. I think it's okay. One thing

862
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: that is because, like, the Irish language is a language

863
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 2: that has been attempted to be destroyed through colonization, and

864
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: the thing that ended up happening is that basically, like

865
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: people actually wanted to use the language in day to

866
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: day life. So all of the like proper groups who

867
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: want to like save Irish as a language were like, no,

868
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 2: don't do anything improper, don't be like, don't be making

869
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: up new words for drugs and fucking and things like that, right,

870
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: and then here come people being like, no, we're just

871
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 2: gonna talk about our lives in the way that we

872
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: like to and like in the culture that we're part

873
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: of or whatever. And so there's this movie that's like

874
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: a it's kind of a biopic about a band that

875
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: actually exists, and it's just about Northern Ireland attempts to

876
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: save Irish in this like kind of interesting cultural way,

877
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 2: and like how it negatively reflects on both the IRA

878
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: and the British government and how they try and control

879
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: things anyway, and they do it through hip hop, they do.

880
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: And Okay, so that's the point, No, I know. And

881
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: it's interesting because I like, this is like easy for

882
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: me to say as a white person. I think in

883
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: the I think in the United States it's a different

884
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: thing to be a white rapper, whereas like kind of

885
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: everywhere else I've ever like been or read too much about,

886
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: it's just sort of the music medium of like the

887
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: underclasses and the people who like who are living in

888
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: poverty and rebelling against stuff. Just because like race works

889
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: so differently in every country, you know, right, it does,

890
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: But I could be wrong. I'm not trying to be

891
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 2: like and that's why, Yeah, I don't know.

892
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: No, no, no, Like that's like I think that it

893
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: makes more sense to like counter colonization and what the

894
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: British essentially has stolen for so many years or try

895
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: to oppress. That would be a good reason to take

896
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: on a hip hop culture. Like that makes sense because

897
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: that's kind of what hip hop was countering, the colonization

898
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: and racism in the you know, in the US. So

899
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: that makes more sense as a verse to like K

900
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: pop idols who rap and really think they know what

901
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: they're doing and then they say inappropriate things and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, yeah,

902
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to rap anymore. You're not allowed to

903
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: say you're hip hop anymore?

904
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: You no, no, no, yeah, yeah no that's fair. Oh

905
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,959
Speaker 2: that's interesting because it's like I know so little about

906
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: modern Korean culture. I did this like long deep dive

907
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: on like Korean revolutionary politics in like the early twentieth century,

908
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: so I like know way more about like Korea while

909
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: it was colonized than I do like once it was divided.

910
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's definitely two different stories,

911
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: but I mean, yeah, fair enough, we are today too,

912
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: and that could all come back to, like the imperialism

913
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: and the influence that the US has over South Korea

914
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: and all the things that they have taken on as marketability. Yeah,

915
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: but we will we will drop that here because I

916
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: know when we come back.

917
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: All right, we're not gonna do with the whole K

918
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 2: pop section right now. All right, okay, all right, but

919
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: we can talk about Okawa, the small town on the

920
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: southeastern coast of Hokkaidoawa. It was started by Japanese colonists

921
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: who were Christian, although again like I actually I think

922
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: some of these people were also I knew, but I'm

923
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: not certain because I know later in the nineteen eighties

924
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: a lot of the people who were involved in the

925
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: story or I knew near Urkawa. A church was built

926
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: in eighteen eighty six. In Urukawa proper, a little tiny

927
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: wooden prayer house was built that fit about twelve people

928
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: and had no insulation. It was just four walls and

929
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: a roof. And that's going to later be the spoiler,

930
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: or that's going to become the first Bethel House. Urkawa

931
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: today has one main street about two miles long that

932
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: follows the ocean. It's the kind of place that has

933
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: like a main store where people get their things, but

934
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 2: other stores are around two And I can like in

935
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: my mind like because like twelve thousand people is like

936
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 2: it's actually more than twice as big as the city

937
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: that I live near. But I live in nowhere, West Virginia,

938
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: so this isn't really a meaningful way of perceiving it.

939
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: The economy there was always about half fishing and seaweed

940
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 2: and half horses. The town's mascot were twin horses. Urukawa

941
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 2: was the place where the emperor's own horses were bred

942
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: before World War Two. Now there's a racehorse industry there,

943
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: but that industry is dying, and I think climate change

944
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: is fucking with the fishing too. And the population as

945
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: old as hell. There's a ton of retirees. Young people

946
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: have all fled for bigger cities. You asked me like

947
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: thirty minutes ago, I had Shrinkeen. It's just rural. I mean,

948
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: it's literally the same story of where I live. You know,

949
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: the like extract stuff from the nature is kind of

950
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: going away, and everyone young leaves.

951
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure with climate change on no small islands

952
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: like that get really impacted by weather and storms and

953
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: all as such, so I'm sure that could be a

954
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: part of the conversation too.

955
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a psychiatric there's a general hospital there actually

956
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: with a psychiatric wing, and it's called Urukawa Red Cross Hospital,

957
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: and it's sort of central to our story. It has

958
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 2: a nurse training program, which is the only reason any

959
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 2: medical professionals end up there, and they mostly leave when

960
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 2: they graduate. There's also that church, which is affiliated with

961
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: the United Church of Christ in Japan, and for decades

962
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 2: at a time it didn't have a pastor. The congregants

963
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: all like twelve of them. We just kind of do

964
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: their own thing, their own way, and then like once

965
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: a month or something, someone will like kind of come through, right,

966
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: But quite often the services were led by members of

967
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: Bethel House. Later, once Bethel House exists and it focuses

968
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: more on singing and communal meals than sermons, and they

969
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: had this attitude that here we do things our own way,

970
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 2: and that's how it kind of began. And I guess

971
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: we could say there's a bunch of people you can

972
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 2: point to and be like, oh, these are the people

973
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: who start at Bethel House. One of them is a

974
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 2: guy named mister Mukayachi. He was this poor Christian kid.

975
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: His mom had converted, and so he did too, and

976
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: he worked his way through social work school in Sapporo,

977
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: the city in Hakkaido mostly known as the place where

978
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: the beer comes from to people who live in America.

979
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: Yes.

980
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy eight, fresh out of school, he went

981
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: to go work for the Red Cross Hospital in Irakawa,

982
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 2: and he was the facility's only social worker, which has

983
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: to be a nightmare job. Social work is already like

984
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: a nightmare job for heroes, you know, right. He borrowed

985
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 2: money from his parents to get a suit for the interview,

986
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: and then in order to get a ticket to go

987
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: to his job for the first time, to like move

988
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: to the town, he had to pawn his like English

989
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 2: language dictionary for a place to stay. He showed up

990
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 2: and he was like, I can't afford to live anywhere,

991
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: And so he went to the church and he was like,

992
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: can I sleep in the uninsulated church? And they were

993
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: like yeah, sure. And soon enough, together with some ex

994
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: patients from the hospital, he started leading a group called

995
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 2: the Acorn Society, and that was part of his social work.

996
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty, a new church was built, and a

997
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: minister showed up, the first regular minister they'd had in years,

998
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: and his name was Reverend Miajima. Peple in town were porous,

999
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: fuck including the congregation, many of them were I knew,

1000
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: and the minister drove around to pick up local kids

1001
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: to make sure they got fed. And I think that

1002
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: this gets into that like thing, right, where like Christians

1003
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: either show up and are like, well, if you're Christian,

1004
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: will feed you, or they're just like, well, I'm Christian,

1005
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 2: so ill feed you. And that's the kind I could

1006
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 2: put up with, right, versus the like mm hmm, you

1007
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: better cross the eyes and dots some teas or whatever, right, right,

1008
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: And that's like again part of why Bethel House is like,

1009
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: we are not a Christian organization, right, You do not

1010
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: have to be Christian to be part of any of us.

1011
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm like going on about the Christianity

1012
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: part more than I expected to, probably because like when

1013
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: I first started, I was like, huh, you know.

1014
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean again, there's a deep history of

1015
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: missionaries and colonization, especially everywhere, but Asia was a big

1016
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: part of it, Japan, Korea, China. We know, like the

1017
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: stories and the harrowing, they're all dying Christians are being persecuted.

1018
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: Type of conversations that I heard the most were from

1019
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: like China, Japan, and Korea, when they first we're doing

1020
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: all that work, and then later realizing, oh, but also

1021
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: colonization was happening, and this is part of the way

1022
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: they were colonizing areas or bringing influences, their influences, and

1023
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: especially like when we talk about African countries, those poor

1024
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: African kids that need Jesus. So it's hard not to

1025
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: at least talk about if they're not bad influences, why

1026
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: explaining how they're not that's important a conversation. So I

1027
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: get it.

1028
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: I think they've earned that reputation where you kind of

1029
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 2: have to start from negative and be like, hey, no,

1030
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 2: like actual, isn't that bad?

1031
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: We promise they were the cool Christians.

1032
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, these people were like genuinely looking at the like

1033
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 2: what if we take care of each other part and

1034
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: not of the like everyone who doesn't do the following

1035
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: will burn in hell forever part, you know. Oh yeah,

1036
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 2: And so the church soon became a sort of clubhouse

1037
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: for ex patients. About twenty people would show up for

1038
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 2: monthly dinners and several people started living in the building,

1039
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty three a guy named Kiyoshi Hayasaka

1040
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 2: moved in and he was a former pay and he

1041
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 2: was a schizophrenic. He is one of the founders of

1042
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: Bethel House and he's actually he gets presented as like

1043
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: the mascot of Bethel House and his like faces on

1044
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: some of their merchant stuff. But like in a way

1045
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: he's like totally in on this. Isn't a like okay,

1046
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: like that's the whole thing, is all of this, Oh man,

1047
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about it. They do really interesting stuff

1048
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: where they like they sell merch with their delusions on it.

1049
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: That's creative. I mean, y'are fair half the people that

1050
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 1: write and make movies. I'm sure it's something, whether it's

1051
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: bipolar or schizophrenia and narcissism, like yeah.

1052
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: Totally, yeah there. It's so hard. The like the overlap

1053
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 2: between like madness and creativity and art and stuff is

1054
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: so real but complicated, like people play it up, you know.

1055
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 2: But right, there's also like something about being like, well,

1056
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying to tap into something that doesn't exist to

1057
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: create something that has never existed before, you know, Right,

1058
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: But this guy Kiyoshi shows up. In nineteen eighty four,

1059
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 2: people got together to fix up the old church, to

1060
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: insulate it and add more living space, and the reverend

1061
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: called this place Bethel House, House of God House. It

1062
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: was named though, after a place that I now want

1063
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 2: to know more about. The reason is called Bethel House

1064
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: is not actually even a reference to Christianity. It is

1065
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: called Bethel House because there was a Bethel Institution in Germany,

1066
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: which was a psychiatric facility that resisted the Nazi attempts

1067
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 2: to kill all of its patients.

1068
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: Huh, I did not know that?

1069
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I didn't either, And I ran across that

1070
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: one sentence, and now I have this like seed that

1071
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: I hope will turn into an episode one day.

1072
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: I'll be back, call me back.

1073
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's funny because I already have another story

1074
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 2: about like that. I'm kind of starting to do the

1075
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: research on about communist and anarchists who ran a psychiatric

1076
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 2: facility in France that turned it into a like gorilla

1077
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: operating stage for fighting the Nazis.

1078
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:51,439
Speaker 1: Wow.

1079
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 2: Anyway, so maybe I'll do a whole like psychiatric Patients

1080
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,879
Speaker 2: against Nazis episode. I love it, And the original Bethel House.

1081
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 2: This isn't a like wholesome story to the most of

1082
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,919
Speaker 2: the people who live in this town. Right at the time, Yeah, yeah,

1083
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: this is the place that the like dangerous and skitz

1084
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: to quotes but only half quotes the dangerous schizophrenics and

1085
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: alcoholics live, right. It had a bad reputation. Parents told

1086
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 2: their kids to stay away from this place, right. And

1087
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: then all of these people who live there, they really

1088
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 2: struggled to hold down jobs. Right, that was like part

1089
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: of their whole issue, right, Society didn't isn't really set

1090
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: up for people who are going to like freak out

1091
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 2: and yell and break stuff, you know. And they all

1092
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: started finding work. And this is actually where it gets

1093
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 2: into interesting like women's work. Right. A lot of women

1094
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: in town packaged seaweed at home as piecework, and then

1095
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: it was shipped out all over Japan basically like a

1096
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: seaweed plant would just send out all of the seaweed

1097
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 2: to be dried and packaged in individual homes. And so

1098
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: it was like a housewife job, right, and everyone's like

1099
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: pool or so everyone has to be working. Then all

1100
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: of a sudden, starting by originally I think helping like

1101
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: the minister's wife, they all start packaging seaweed, and that

1102
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: becomes like the start of them working. But whenever you're like, oh,

1103
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: this person who has a hard time holding down other jobs,

1104
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: and now we can just exploit them through work, right,

1105
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 2: this is like a thing that happens a lot. But

1106
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: they circumnavigate that problem. In nineteen eighty nine they expanded.

1107
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 2: There were a lot of patients in the hospital and

1108
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 2: a lot of elderly folks in town, and they had

1109
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: a lot of unmet needs. In particular, patients weren't provided

1110
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: with adult diapers in the hospital, So Bethel House started

1111
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: welfare Shop Bethel and they started selling diapers and other

1112
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and then would like deliver do home

1113
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: delivery to elderly folks who couldn't go out and get

1114
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 2: what they needed. And they are like aggressively, they're not nonprofit.

1115
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 2: They're aggressively not caring about profit. And we'll talk about

1116
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: that a little bit later too. Eventually they wound up

1117
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 2: run the hospital's laundry and dishwashing facilities too, and then

1118
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: they sell stuff directly in the hospital and they start

1119
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: developing the culture of Bethel House that is going to

1120
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 2: shape so much of it in the future. And also

1121
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: like again, stuff that I find really interesting no matter what.

1122
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 2: For example, they eschewed rigid rules. Iki Yoshi, the social

1123
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 2: worker guy, put it quote, Bethel House doesn't have any

1124
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 2: of the rule books or management manuals that other organizations do.

1125
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 2: If we did have those types of rules and regulations,

1126
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: then we felt everything could be answered by looking it

1127
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: up in the regulations. Every individual act of generosity or

1128
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 2: thought might end up being squelched and then working under it.

1129
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 2: Here's where I thought I was segueing to a second ago.

1130
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 2: Now I one can see the inner mind of me

1131
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: as I build my scripts. It's so much work in

1132
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 2: a week. I think people probably know that. But it

1133
00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 2: is so much work in a week. Uh. Anyway, working

1134
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: under someone else's management feels paternalistic too, and it doesn't

1135
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: help develop the agency of the members. How are you

1136
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 2: supposed to develop a free thinking person if you have

1137
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 2: a boss telling you what to do all the time.

1138
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 2: So reasonably early on, right, they're getting this piecemeal work

1139
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: from the big seaweed factory. One of the members picked

1140
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 2: a fight with the boss of the larger company that

1141
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 2: was hiring them, just like kind of had an outburst

1142
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 2: and was like, fuck you man, or whatever. You know,

1143
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: So Bethelhouse lost all their orders, so they started their

1144
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: own seaweed business. Yeah, and they didn't even like they're

1145
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 2: actually referencing a different cultural concept than worker ownership, but

1146
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 2: they use it to create worker ownership. All of them

1147
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: own the place that they're you know, it's run by them.

1148
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 2: Developing agency is at the core of what they do

1149
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 2: for the members. For example, Ikeyoshi said, quote, it's no

1150
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 2: good if people think that I cured them. We're always

1151
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 2: noting that people who think we cured them all relapse,

1152
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 2: rather than being like, you're cured now. Healing comes from

1153
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: the individual in the community, not something that is granted

1154
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 2: to them by experts. They also don't see cures at all.

1155
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: They work on managing their problems instead. The problem isn't

1156
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 2: the schizophrenia. The problem is is the way that the

1157
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 2: schizophrenia attracts from their experience of living basically, and that's

1158
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: both like how society treats them, but also the symptoms

1159
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: of schizophrenia even without society or sometimes very undesirable, you know,

1160
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: m So you take enough medication to manage the symptoms

1161
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 2: without trying to cure yourself by numbing yourself completely. In it. Actually, oddly,

1162
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 2: in a way, I think the fact that alcoholism is

1163
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 2: included in the psychiatric disorders in Japanese culture ends up

1164
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: advantageous to this because you don't cure alcoholism, you live

1165
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 2: in recovery. People attempt to live in recovery with their

1166
01:01:55,320 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: mental illness through Bethelhouse. And then this is like my

1167
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: favorite part, but that's because of my own Actually that's funny.

1168
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: Of that's to say, like, I, okay, well I'll just

1169
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 2: say what I'm gonna say. So they have this agency

1170
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 2: building ethic, and then they build this kind of like

1171
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 2: slacker worker owner ethic. They run a ton of worker

1172
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 2: owned businesses, but these are not grind set types. And

1173
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: I was like being like, hey, isn't that amazing. But

1174
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm a total I work all the time.

1175
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: I'm constantly working.

1176
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: People who say that and then do creative las never

1177
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: stop working.

1178
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 2: No, I yeah, I'm just always working. I like, I

1179
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 2: don't want to have conversations with people if it's not

1180
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 2: about stuff that we both want to work on. It

1181
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 2: could be about what the other person's working on. It

1182
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be about me.

1183
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: But let's just talk about this. Uh.

1184
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: And so they have this like whole slew of little

1185
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 2: slogans like we want a workplace where you can goof

1186
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 2: off without fear and weakness binds us together. And let's

1187
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 2: value our lack of profits and don't try too hard,

1188
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 2: and don't try to fix your illness by yourself, and

1189
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 2: just letting it be is good enough.

1190
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: And I'm just saying these are all just like fire mantras.

1191
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: I think we are coming back to understanding. Yeah, yeah,

1192
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: these are the sayings that we need to be breathing

1193
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: to ourselves, especially the day this is released, so I know.

1194
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 2: And then here's the last one that I wrote down.

1195
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 2: There's a bunch more. You're right on schedule. Oh ah,

1196
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 2: so validating when it like like I would have my

1197
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 2: like when I first got like an office job, my

1198
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 2: friend bought me a Garfield mug this as I hate

1199
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: mondays it's like a to make fun of me. I

1200
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 2: would have a mug that says, let's value our lack

1201
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 2: of profits. Bethelhouse, if you sell that, I will buy it.

1202
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 2: No one else. Make that to be clear. They they

1203
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 2: deserve the profit even though it's about lack of profit.

1204
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And as.

1205
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 2: For all the other good stuff, they're gonna do like

1206
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 2: reshape the way that psychiatric care and study is done

1207
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 2: in Japan with that self study stuff that I promised.

1208
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that on Wednesday. Oh man,

1209
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 2: well you don't have to wait that long. You only

1210
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 2: have to wait long enough for me to like go

1211
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 2: get more water. But before even that, people can listen

1212
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 2: to about you then the things that you want to.

1213
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 1: Plug about me and the things I want to plug. Yes,

1214
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 1: I am on a podcast called Stuff Mom Never Told

1215
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: You with my co host Ay, and we talk about

1216
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: all the things that I've mentioned at the very beginning.

1217
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: We did a recent we did several interviews, including one

1218
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: with Michelle Norris, who she's fabulous, and we got to

1219
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: have a whole conversation about food and how that turns

1220
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: into memories, how that could actually help in these conversations,

1221
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: especially talking about racial conversations, so wonderful stuff like that.

1222
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: We also talk about Star Wars and The Last of

1223
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: Us a lot, so there you go find us there.

1224
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: I'm also on Blue Sky McVeigh Sam, I'm on Instagram

1225
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: McVeigh Sam. I think it's all of them because you know,

1226
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't get the original handles and you can see

1227
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: pictures of my dog and maybe me, but more of

1228
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: my dog.

1229
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 2: Dog is always the more important part of social media.

1230
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: That's the thing I've learned obviously. Yeah. Well, if you

1231
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 2: want to know more about what I well, okay, so

1232
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 2: I have a book that's going to come out. I

1233
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 2: know I just said this last year, but there's a

1234
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 2: different book. I have a book coming out this June

1235
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 2: from Strangers in Tangle Wilderness and it is the third

1236
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: book in the Daniel Kine series. It is called The

1237
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice because I believe that I

1238
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 2: should name all of my books as if they are

1239
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 2: metal albums. And it is the third book in the

1240
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: Daniel Kine series. I think I already said that, And

1241
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 2: it's going to kickstart in March, but you can sign

1242
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 2: up now for notifications for when it kickstarts. And as

1243
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: part of that, we're probably going to do audiobooks of

1244
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 2: all three of the books, because audiobooks have never been

1245
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 2: produced of them. But if you want to hear me

1246
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 2: read the first book, go back to the very first

1247
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 2: episodes of Cool Zone Media book Club and listen to

1248
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: me read Robert Evans, The Lamb Will Slaughter The Lion

1249
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 2: to hear, Danielle Kine introduced. But that's the thing that

1250
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to be plugging for a while, so get

1251
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 2: used to it. And also, good luck and take care

1252
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 2: of each other. I hope today didn't lead to what

1253
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 2: Hitler did where he rounded up all of his opponents

1254
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: and killed them immediately. And if so, then we're in

1255
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 2: more trouble. But that probably didn't happen. And you know

1256
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 2: whether or not it happened, but I don't. Isn't it

1257
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 2: wild that you the listener have more information than me,

1258
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 2: the person recording, just by sheer nature of being in

1259
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 2: the future while I am in the past. Although then

1260
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 2: there's like a larger picture thing about the fact that

1261
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 2: I'm always in the past, because I know, for example,

1262
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 2: way more about nineteen ten Korea than twenty twenty five Korea.

1263
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty five.

1264
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:56,919
Speaker 2: I probably know more about nineteen ten America than twenty

1265
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: twenty five America at this point. Uh. Anyway, we'll catch

1266
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: you all on Wednesday.

1267
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1268
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1269
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 1: visit our website foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out

1270
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1271
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: your podcasts.